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Open mike 29/09/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 29th, 2012 - 131 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…


131 comments on “Open mike 29/09/2012”

  1. T 1

    Samuel L Jackson’s expletive-laden election ad. I wonder if NZ would benefit from such an approach next election..


  2. LynW 2

    All lined up! Well I never!

    Key needs to tighten up political oversight Fran O’Sullivan

    One more episode of official incompetence Paul Holmes

    Fortune’s favourite comes unstuck John Armstrong

    Dotcom Diary: A story of Keystone’s Cops Paul Thomas

  3. deuto 3

    And the mud gets murkier – do we now have one agency bagging another – thereby deflecting from Key.


    Police officers told the Government’s spies in February that surveillance of Kim Dotcom may have been illegal.

    But after its legal department reviewed the case, the Government Communications Security Bureau concluded their actions were legitimate.

    Inquiries by The Dominion Post have revealed police first raised the problem with GCSB agents at a meeting on February 16. Mr Key said this week GCSB became aware of the law-breaking about a fortnight ago.

    Officially a debrief on Operation Debut, which had culminated in a raid on Dotcom’s mansion on January 20, it is understood the February meeting was a “back-slapping” exercise, with a Power Point presentation.

    The potential problem and the subsequent legal review was not disclosed to Mr Key, who was unaware of the GCSB’s involvement in the high-profile case until last week.

    I had a Tui moment when reading the last sentence quoted above.

    • karol 3.1

      And good on the Greens for keeping the heat on the police. Looks like the police are covering their a*ses.

    • Kotahi Tāne Huna 3.2

      Evidently, the Prime Minister’s “control” of this organisation is not in any way equivalent to the “control” a pilot has over an aircraft. Or an adult their car.

      When police believe someone has broken the law, what is their usual practice?

      If this shiny brand new narrative is correct, the GCSB’s legal department decided the surveillance wasn’t illegal. Did they talk to the Director about it? Did they tell the cops?

      In what sense is Key in “control”?

    • deuto 3.3

      And Sir Geoffrey Palmer’s take on the GCSB fiasco – headed “Former PM aghast Key left out of spy loop”


      Sir Geoffrey Palmer says GCSB should have told its political master of Dotcom mission right from the start

      Former Prime Minister Sir Geoffrey Palmer says he is astonished John Key was not told about the foreign intelligence agency’s involvement in the Dotcom case much earlier.

      Sir Geoffrey said Mr Key should have been told from the start.

      “I would have thought if the GCSB was using its sophisticated surveillance methods in a situation like this, it would be prudent to tell the minister. I don’t understand that at all.

      “In my experience with them, they were meticulous in consulting ministers when they needed, and should have.”

      And further down in the same article

      Mr Key also defended the police over another legal misstep in the case – the search warrants that Chief High Court Judge Helen Winkelmann found were illegal.

      The Prime Minister said describing that as a bungle by police was “a bit harsh” because it was a matter of differing legal interpretation.

      Bold is mine – is Key now questioning Winkelmann’s ruling? Dangerous ground for a member of the Executive (a PM) to query/comment on a Judicial ruling, IMO.

      • Tiger Mountain 3.3.1

        The history of some recent PMs is they seemed to enjoy the ruling class inner circle’s attention and inclusion in ‘cloak and dagger’ briefings. Key may just, and only just, have done enough backside covering to wriggle out of this one.

        But many more kiwis will now greet ShonKey’s utterances with a “Tui” response. The Blinglish certificate will probably rev up the succession plans of the other National factions too.

      • Poission 3.3.2

        Palmer is on the nation this morning to discuss the GCSB

      • Draco T Bastard 3.3.3

        is Key now questioning Winkelmann’s ruling?

        Key will question and cast doubt upon anything that doesn’t suit his narrative. We saw that in the British interview about just how dirty NZ really is and I’m pretty sure that I’ve seen both him and other NACT ministers use the same or similar language elsewhere.

    • freedom 3.4

      Confusion in his eyes that says it all.
      Key’s lost control.
      And he’s clinging to the nearest passer by,
      Key’s lost control.

      And he gave away the secrets of his past,
      And said I’ve lost control again,
      And a voice that told him when and where to act,
      Key said I’ve lost control again.

      And he turned around and took me by the hand and said,
      I’ve lost control again.
      And how I’ll never know just why or understand,
      Key said I’ve lost control again.

      And he screamed out kicking on his side and said,
      I’ve lost control again.
      And seized up on the floor, I thought he’d die.
      Key said I’ve lost control.

      He’s lost control again.
      Key’s lost control.
      He’s lost control again.
      Key’s lost control.

      Well I had to phone a friend to state my case,
      And say he’s lost control again.
      And he showed up all the errors and mistakes,
      And said I’ve lost control again.

      But he expressed himself in many different ways,
      Until he lost control again.
      And walked upon the edge of no escape,
      And laughed I’ve lost control.

      He’s lost control again.
      Key’s lost control.
      Key’s lost control again.

      -my most sincere apologies to Ian Curtis and the lads

      • North 3.4.1

        Freedom……..brilliant, brilliant, brilliant !

        A thousand scourges upon the hypocrite dissembler, the gutless thing to whom power, however taken and maintained, is all.

        “Responsibility……..higher standards” – a sick joke !

      • Jokerman 3.4.2

        Excellent. “..they walked in line…they walked in line..they walked in line…”

        Another ” Atrocity Exhibition”

    • Dv 3.5

      The thing that struck me was that the spies GOT Bill to sign the certificate while Key was away.
      I got the distinct feeling of butt covering and don’t tell the ‘boss”.

      Can anyone explain how they could be confused about the immigration law?
      The other interesting fact is the spies got a legal opinion, so this was all a ‘simple mistake’ as implied by Key.

      It was all very deliberate.

      • Colonial Viper 3.5.1

        The GCSB is likely to have very direct and independent access to Immigration databases and the exact immigration/citizenship status of individuals in this country.

        They will have this because they will not want to tip off normal police and immigration channels every time they do a background on a target or are interested in surveilling a suspect, and because in some cases time is of the essence and you don’t want to be constrained by an outside bureaucracy turning their wheels.

      • BloodyOrphan 3.5.2

        Well I guess the real question is ….
        “Who instigated the investigation and why?”

        Those cats where trying to do a job, the real mistake was John Key using it to grandstand.
        He shouldn’t have told them to investigate a NZ resident in the first place.

        Furthermore those good men are the ones most likely to stand there and take it on the chin, that is what they do.

        Think about it …
        “Would Dotcom have discussed residency with those politicians?”
        And would that be blanked out of certain documents perhaps?

    • mike 3.6

      Ha! The police bite back.

      “Inquiries by The Dominion Post have revealed police first raised the problem with GCSB agents at a meeting on February 16. Mr Key said this week GCSB became aware of the law-breaking about a fortnight ago.”

      Please explain.

  4. karol 4

    Chris Hipkins: doing a very good job on relentlessly rattling Parata’s cage:


    “John Key and Hekia Parata are continuing the ongoing fiasco that is the Canterbury schools plan. Yesterday John Key assured Cantabrians that changes will be made to the closure plans, yet today Hekia Parata sent letters to schools formally commencing the process to close or merge them.

    “Schools have been given until 7 December to provide feedback on proposals for closures and mergers, the first two weeks of that time will be school holidays and for senior students, exams will dominate the rest of the school year.

    “John Key is out there trying to tell Cantabrians that the consultation process is a genuine one, yet his Minister of forging ahead with the legal process to implement decisions that appear to have already been made.

    • ScottGN 4.1

      Hipkins is doing a great job, he totally owned Parata in The House the other day. And I reckon of all the issues gifted to the Opposition in the last little while it’s Hekia’s train wreck stewardship of the Education Portfolio that could do most to undermine Key’s re-election chances in 2014.

  5. Netanyahu thinks we should bomb Iran and here is why

    • Netanyahu should be in prison he’s a phsycopathic terrororist who is the leader of a country.
      He’s no different from Assad in Syria if all he can talk about is WAR, freakin moron.
      Imagine if that CRAZY Fuckwit had yellowcake on his piece of dirt.

    • OneTrack 5.3

      Nothing should be done until an Iranian nuke goes off over Tel Aviv. And then we can wring our hands a bit to make it look like we “care” but say it was Israel’s fault anyway because they didnt let themselves be pushed into the sea by the arabs whenever they have been attacked in the past. And America supported them. And everybody supported by the US must be “bad” by definition.

      And it’s not like Ahmadinejad has actually promised he will destroy Israel. Oh wait….

      • BloodyOrphan 5.3.1

        Destroy the Zionist regime not Israel
        It’s separatism they (Iran) have a problem with.
        They’d never instigate anything, they are civilised.
        Israel is trying, but doesn’t have a Historical precedent to work with, hence Zionists.

      • BloodyOrphan 5.3.2

        In the name of peace means something to both parties, but where from here?

        They worry that the local populus will hold fear in their hearts if they aren’t percieved as strong.

        Neither side truly wants war, yet their words deny that fact.
        It’s almost “classical” in it’s current form, they need to play chess for it somehow.
        A formal “Togetherness” day maybe, or a great minds share a panel/expand some thought TV show, or a sporting challenge that can bring the two peoples closer in their hearts perhaps.

      • Colonial Viper 5.3.3

        Nothing should be done until an Iranian nuke goes off over Tel Aviv.

        Please remember it is Israel who has the unregistered nukes. And, only one country in the world has used nukes on a civilian population.

      • BloodyOrphan 5.3.4

        Absolutely, Bloody Well said M8! 🙂
        Keeping them honest is paramount.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.3.5

        What a surprise, an ignoramus stating things that have been disproved.

        The Proof:

        The full quote translated directly to English:

        “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.”

        Word by word translation:

        Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

        So, no, neither Ahmadinejad nor Iran has said that they will attack Israel.

      • Vicky32 5.3.6

        And it’s not like Ahmadinejad has actually promised he will destroy Israel. Oh wait….

        Ma dai! I had assumed that by now, everyone knew about the false translation of Ahmadinejad’s words….

  6. muzza 6

    Why didn’t CNN’s international arm air its own documentary on Bahrain’s Arab Spring repression?

    In late March 2011, as the Arab Spring was spreading, CNN sent a four-person crew to Bahrain to produce a one-hour documentary on the use of internet technologies and social media by democracy activists in the region. Featuring on-air investigative correspondent Amber Lyon, the CNN team had a very eventful eight-day stay in that small, US-backed kingdom.

    It is CNN International that is, by far, the most-watched English-speaking news outlet in the Middle East. By refusing to broadcast “iRevolution”, the network’s executives ensured it was never seen on television by Bahrainis or anyone else in the region.

    Yeah, thats the stuff, don’t hassle the dictatorships that you “support”

    • Jokerman 6.1

      EXODUS-Tradesmen and Tradeswomen Diaspora

      ol’ FOX aye, Blown Away (man ends own life on film, on screen)

      speaking of screen,
      FreeView- Taxpayers Fund 15M of Opiates

      maybe they could school ol’ Heckya Piranha down at King Salmon?

  7. Poission 7

    The Tea-leaf Paradox is by a number of commentators described as Einsteins best paper here it describes the inverse response by an action (stirring ) for the migration of the tea-leafs to the centre and bottom of the teacup ( by frictional dissipation )

    The tea leaf paradox describes a phenomenon where tea leaves in a cup of tea migrate to the center and bottom of the cup after being stirred rather than being forced to the edges of the cup, as would be expected from a spiral centrifugal force.


    Or as Einstein suggested .

    Hence in the case depicted in Fig. 2 the erosion is necessarily stronger on the right side than on the left.


    As they cannot override the Laws of Physics,the change is coming or as someone suggested (a quote I cant find) John you cant stop spring by cutting down the flowers.

  8. marsman 8

    A very good article on Stuff Nation written by a reader. It has a prominent headline on the page so hopefully will get a fair bit of exposure.


  9. Jokerman 9

    The Nation-

    Colin James-devolved style of P.Mship not helpful with LESS CAPABLE ministers
    -international press-“just the facts make us look like Hillbillies” pa..

    Shearer-started well, plateaued, then a small climb (nice tie)

    to the Fair(not)fax dogs-foreign investment is ALREADY POLITICISED, fools

    Martha Nussbaum in “Poetic Justice”on why Judges should read novels.

    Pray God us keep
    From Single vision and Newton’s sleep!-William Blake

    God lives where we let Him in.-Rabbi Menahem Mendel of Kotzk

    • ianmac 9.1

      I watched the entire The Nation for the first time. A very interesting program with succinct telling commentary from Geof Palmer, Colin James, and David Shearer. Worth watching but why the hell isn’t this in Prime time?

      Geof Palmer said of the GCSB that they inform the PM of significant actions and especially any that would likely become contentious. (Me: Was Key informed during those 15 briefing meetings this year? Can Key deny being informed? Yes because the GCSB cannot possibly publicly refute his assertion.)

      The interviewers with Mr Shearer asked searching questions and I think David gave as good as he got. David came across as thoughtful rather than glib. A good platform.

      • ianmac 9.1.1

        Just noticed in the Herald:

        “Sir Geoffrey Palmer says GCSB should have told its political master of Dotcom mission right from the start.

        Former Prime Minister Sir Geoffrey Palmer says he is astonished John Key was not told about the foreign intelligence agency’s involvement in the Dotcom case much earlier……..
        …In my experience with them, they were meticulous in consulting ministers when they needed, and should have.”


        • BloodyOrphan

          I’m sure they were trying to help as well, it was an obvious thing, many would have seen it’s downfall coming.
          It was announced by John Key himself on the Herald, that he was in charge.
          L8r he called for more involvement, and all of a sudden Dotcom happened.
          The chain of events is fairly obvious, he was covering his buttocks, but wanted Dotcom investigated.
          Just a Cowboy with power when it comes down to it.

      • Poission 9.1.2

        I thought this was a good piece for TV3 where the issues can be more broadly discussed,as posed trying to overfit the issues to a 90″ sound bite.

        Shearer framed or outlined the issues relatively well,and did not rise to the logical fallacy of the “markets” are pricing the $ correctly. ( and which is a faith based entity )

        DS correctly identified that there needs to be a mixed model ( both fiscal and monetary) to correct the asymmetry that prevails in the economy at present.

    • millsy 9.2

      Did DS give anything away as to Labour Party policies, or the direction in which he is willing to take the party?

      • OneTrack 9.2.1

        No he didn’t. It doesn’t look like they have decided their policies yet. Must be still running focus groups.

        Also Rachel let him off a few times when he wouldn’t answer the question that was asked. I couldn’t tell whether he didn’t know the answers, didn’t want to give the answers or had been told that he wasn’t allowed to talk about anything that wasn’t on his prepared script. But she will get her invitation to the xmas bbq for sure.

  10. Treetop 10

    At times like this the privy council is surely missed.

    The only way that Key can now get caught in the headlights is for someone from the GCSB to whistleblow that Key knew more e.g. was informed about GCSB spying on Dotcom since February 2012.

    Someone from the police could whistleblow as well. Marshall only has a three year appointment and once again he is being asked to investigate strong connections to Key which can prove that Key is involved.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.1

      WTF has the Privy Council got to do with that?

      • Treetop 10.1.1

        So you have complete faith in the NZ judicial system.

        • Colonial Viper

          Its been pretty damn fine this year. Not perfect. But better than the US or British judiciary by far.

        • Draco T Bastard

          More faith than in the Privy Council and why shouldn’t I? NZers are just as capable as the British.

          • Treetop

            “NZers are just as capable as the British”

            Were it not for the Privy Council, Bain would not have had his convictions quashed.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Really? So you know what the Supreme Court would have ruled if it had gone there instead?

              Wow, a real live Nostradamus.

              • Treetop

                When it comes to checks and balances I would have more faith in the Privy Council (if available) that the Supreme Court. The Bain case was not tested in the Supreme Court so the outcome is unknown.

                The police have no respect for Cheif Justice Elias’s authority. It is nearly five years since Patrick O’ Brien wrote to her about commiting multiple perjury and NOTHING substantial has occurred and probably will not.

  11. ianmac 11

    The appearance of “The Media” with Russel Brown on TV3 was pretty good too. National Standards. Mr Keith Ng has previously criticised Fairfax and the Herald for their publication of National Standards and this was a chance for Mr Ng to explain why the data is so dodgy, or ropey as the PM calls it. Unfortunately he was shouted down by Hartevelt and simultaneously by the man from the Herald. Wonder why they did not want Mr Ng to explain why it is a farce?
    Watch it if you can.

  12. weka 12

    The following was on NRT yesterday. I wonder if someone at The Standard could do a regular, or semi-regular round up of these issues like r0b does with Poverty Watch. Maybe Democracy Watch (dot.com, CERA, ECAN, Bennett/prviacy etc)? So much is being done by NACT, and with such spin, that too many NZers don’t realise we are losing rights all over the place.

    (sorry for the bold, can’t get TS formatting to work properly)

    The Ombudsman’s Office released its annual report [PDF] yesterday, which strongly criticisedthe government for its attitude to the law:

    The Ombudsman’s Office has warned of “highly dangerous” moves by the Government to keep information secret by drafting laws to avoid the Official Information Act.

    Chief Ombudsman Dame Beverley Wakem says she is concerned at the increasing number of officials in government agencies who fail to understand the constitutional importance of the legislation.

    She pointed to several “reprehensible” attempts in the past year by officials to disallow Official Information Act requests for drafts of legislation, in particular on partial state asset sales, charter schools and changes to mining permits.

    “I think it’s the beginning of something that’s highly dangerous,” she told the Herald.

    This is extremely strong language for an Ombudsman, and it suggests that the problem is serious. After thirty years of growing transparency, the government is trying to roll back the Act – and officials are taking their lead. Its not something we should let them get away with. 


  13. captain hook 13

    they never were businessmen.
    just a collection of inheritors and grabbers out for anything they can get.

  14. captain hook 14

    and has Len Brown fired the POAL managment yet?

    • Te Reo Putake 14.1

      T 🙄

    • Hey try this ….

      “Hey LEN BROWN Have you sacked the mangement of POAL yet M8!”

      I had to add the yet, damn ur repetitive M8!

      • Te Reo Putake 14.2.1

        Repetitive and stupid. Brown can’t sack the board, it’s not within his powers. But Captain Hook knows that and is just trolling.

    • Tiger Mountain 14.3

      @ Cap’n Hook–14
      Hey, he is not “Red Len”, if he was he could appeal to residents and ratepayers with the left pro worker arguments some have made at the Standard and elsewhere and try and force them all to resign. But technically he can’t and more importantly he won’t because “Lenslide” has been substantially captured by business. Plus he is eating a regular helping of Wellington s**t sandwiches in the vain hope his transport vision may sneak through if he plays nice.

      Doesn’t work, the right wing fleas play for keeps unlike misguided social democrats.

    • tc 14.4

      Can Len sack the board? Did rortney and shonkey give allow him that ability….

    • tc 14.5

      Can Len sack the board? Did rortney and shonkey allow him that ability….

    • OneTrack 14.6

      But he cant do that. He still needs more money for his plans and he has put the rates up as much as he can for the monent. He wants to leave a “legacy” for future generations saying Len was here.

  15. prism 15

    Kim Hill quoting Al Gore on preparing for environmental and economical change “What do we do to prevent people going direct from denial to despair”. What a telling slogan.

    This interview from Radionz is stuff for all those likely to be alive in about 15 years – I will be on my way out but could die happier knowing that a large group of intelligent, thoughtful, pragmatic and practical people had formed a definite bloc to see that we transitioned into the new aware simpler no-growth community with local core and focus and well-informed about the rest of the world.

    On Radionz this morning listen audio in about an hour
    11:05 Richard Heinberg
    Richard Heinberg is a Senior Fellow of the Post Carbon Institute, and is widely regarded as one of the world’s most effective communicators of the urgent need to transition away from fossil fuels. He is the author of ten books, most recently The End of Growth: Adapting to Our New Economic Reality (New Society, ISBN: 9780865716957). He is visiting New Zealand for presentations in Auckland (30 September, University of Auckland Business School), Hamilton (1 October, Hamilton City Council Lounge) and Tauranga (1 October, Baycourt Exhibition Hall).

    • muzza 15.2

      No one should quote Al Gore when citing anything to do with the environment Prism, (Kim Hill is not all that clued up, and easily “star struck”, and actually does not understand simple concepts), the man has no credibility, and no interest other than furthuring an agenda many want to believe either does not exist, or includes them!


      Yeah it all sounds great at face value, you gotta save all those poor people, but really thats not happening is it or it would have by now, and the funds which are lent by nations, borrowed from the same “institutions” who manage and control the UN,, and its NGO offshoots, its a dirty little loop, which people like to pretend does not exist. Borrow to “save the less off”. from , run yourself into debt, then we can use our “global banking arms” to come bail you out, but we will take your resources, and your sovereignty as well.

      When the nations who are supposed to give funds to the less off, are disintegrating themselves onto basket cases, one has to question the altruistic sincerity of the UN, IMF, WB, WTO, UNESCO etc

      Hey but “we” will BS people into thinking that we can tax the billionaires, even though “we” are the billionaires, and our wealth is untouchable, because, well “we say it is”, and we make the rules up, and its all “off-shore” and/or in the ground. But we will let the people think we are going after the uber rich on their behalf, when actually we are going after “the people”, and their countries too!

      Carry on!

      • prism 15.2.1

        muzza – Don’t put me off your comment by dissing a good point because you think the person who made it was flawed. Al Gore has apparently got under the skin of some people like scabies. But that remark I quoted stands on its own as being what all people of good will would wish. Stop being so doctrinaire.

        There’s too much time put into mocking and dissing by some commenters. More time should go into finding things that can be agreed with, and then questioning how they could be implemented querying the validity of the rest. I have a rant now and then myself but it isn’t a useful exercise except for me. When someone attempts to think about a problem we shouldn’t be too quick in jumping on their ideas and muddying them. There is wasted time in scorning their attempts to reach some reasoned opinion that would improve the situation.

        • weka


          Having a listen now. 

        • muzza

          muzza – Don’t put me off your comment by dissing a good point because you think the person who made it was flawed. Al Gore has apparently got under the skin of some people like scabies. But that remark I quoted stands on its own as being what all people of good will would wish. Stop being so doctrinaire.

          Prism, it was not personal, so don’t idly threaten to take it in that direction!

          The quote while fine at face value, is carried and delivered from a platform which exudes nothing but bad energy, and comes from a place of overwhelming negativity. Why do you think people are turned off by it, en masse! Once that issue is reversed, and the platform, altruistic, honest and with integrity, watch people engage voluntarily, en masse. Only then will the outcomes that you and I would both like to see, become free from the shrouded lies, delivered by forked tongues!

          There’s too much time put into mocking and dissing by some commenter’s. More time should go into finding things that can be agreed with, and then questioning how they could be implemented querying the validity of the rest. I have a rant now and then myself but it isn’t a useful exercise except for me. When someone attempts to think about a problem we shouldn’t be too quick in jumping on their ideas and muddying them. There is wasted time in scorning their attempts to reach some reasoned opinion that would improve the situation.

          You read my posts, so you will know that I have offered many suggestions on various topics, which I imagine scare the shit out of most people, probably because they realise that the suggestions, along with the repeated messages about them needing to get of their arses and engage if they want actual change, is the only real answer!

          Wasted time but more importantly, energy, is people not comprehending the playing field they are currently stuck on, and so the self important yet over cranially challenged like Kim Hill, who continue to use the corrupted vehicles like Al Gore, is to be ignorant to the core of the reasons why people are “turned off like scabies”.

          The solutions lie inside ourselves, and will NEVER be delivered with positive outcomes for humanity through mediums we accept as our “options”, by those peddled to us as “saviours”

          • prism


            Prism, it was not personal, so don’t idly threaten to take it in that direction!

            Why so aggressive when someone makes a point? You seem to care about society’s direction but are quick to find fault with others that differ from you so you come across as self-righeous and arrogant. I think it casts a shadow on your work.

            And I’ll say no more on this. Pointless arguments over style are a waste of time, and trivialise the import of the blog.

            • muzza

              Why so aggressive when someone makes a point? You seem to care about society’s direction but are quick to find fault with others that differ from you so you come across as self-righeous and arrogant. I think it casts a shadow on your work.

              Prism – You ask a question, then make more personal accusations, followed by saying you want no more to do with it., a classic hit and run….

              Not quite sure who you are finding disagreement with though, I was certainly not disagreeing with you. If my explanations were not to your liking, fair enough. Remember that reading digital text is flawed with all kinds of assumptions Prism,. Your interpretation of my comments are not how they were intended, such as it is when there is not visual or audible signals involved!

              And I’ll say no more on this. Pointless arguments over style area waste of time, and trivialise the import of the blog

              While this is an excellent blog, I agree, I would not consider it to be as important as many on here want to believe it is. Those same people have the collective capabilities to make it incredibly important IMO, but that has not happened yet!

              Should TS become an important catalyst in “real life”, then it will require signifigantly more physical action from those who want to believe that sitting back and typing on a blog will result in meaningful change. Should that physical involvement not eventuate, then IMO those same people are actually contributing more to the downfall than they want to admit, or understand!

              No hard feelings intended, or taken Prism – I respect your comments

      • ianmac 15.2.2

        I think the new French President has just (today) announced a plan to tax at 75% the Super-rich French folk. Pretty brave as the very rich have very clever people to design the process to avoid paying tax altogether.
        But if it works imagine if taxing the very rich became the norm around the world! NZ? Yeah right!

        • millsy

          I read somewhere that he watered it down…

          • Colonial Viper

            I haven’t seen that anywhere. However the super-rich tax rate of 75% is only expected to affect two thousand people anyway. I’m not sure why France is even bothering. Their new tax rate of 45% affecting those earning over Euro 150K pa is the one which is going to raise a lot of money.

            • ianmac

              I heard that on a news report on National Radio (?) this morning. They were talking about billions of Euros. Will try and find it.

            • Jim Nald

              hmm …..


              New tax rises worth €10bn for “wealthy households”…and €10bn on big businesses

              • €4bn will be raised by cutting corporate tax relief on interest payments

              • €2bn will be raised from French households through a new tax on share dividends

              • A marginal tax rate will be created, at 45%, tipped to raise €320m

              • A new ‘exceptional’ 75% tax rate for highest incomes, tipped to raise €210m

              • Lowering the threshold for France’s wealth tax, tipped to raise €1bn


              Hollande has also warned that households will have to come up with an extra €10bn to help bring down the country’s public deficit. ….

              As well as the new 75% tax, a 45% band is to be introduced on incomes over €150,000 a year (up from 41%) and households will be limited to a maximum €10,000 savings on tax reduction schemes (down from €18,000).

              France is also looking to beef up its “wealth tax”, imposed on households with assets worth more than €1.3m including their main home. The threshold for inheritance tax has already been lowered from €150,000 to €100,000, a move expected to raise around €2.5bn by 2014, and there are moves afoot to raise the rate of capital gains tax.

              Even low earners will pay more income tax after the household allowance (the same as the personal allowance, only applied to families not individuals) is reduced from €2,336 to €2,000 a year.

              • ianmac

                Good stuff Jim. I had just caught the edge of it on the radio but thanks for the full report.

              • muzza

                Good stuff Jim…

                Won’t make much of a dent in the Fench debt though, which is heading towards about 2tn euros.

                Then again , most taxes only go to service the interest payable, which must be reaching the critial stages by now!

        • Poission

          In the NZ case you do not have to increase the tax so as in France,you can change the asymmetry in the tax system ,such as property.

          As most property purchases under 10 mil do not require OIO approval, non residents are competing with NZ’s for property ownership, the bigger bank ac will win.

          What useful benefit for NZ a non resident provides for owning residential property here it is difficult to ascertain. the Non resident has a benefit in a nontaxable capital gain ,which it is difficult to obtain in most jurisdictions. I hardly see this as a”productive investment”

          Tax tourists we do not need.

        • muzza


          UNITED NATIONS, Sept 25 (Reuters) – The United Nations must immediately provide protection to areas liberated by rebels in Syria, French President Francois Hollande said on Tuesday, adding that President Bashar al-Assad’s government has no future on the international stage.

          In his first speech to the U.N. General Assembly, Hollande also warned Iran that France would not tolerate Tehran continuing to flaunt its international obligations and threatening the stability of the region.

          “The Syrian regime … has no future among us,” Hollande said. “Without any delay, I call upon the United Nations to provide immediately to the Syrian people all the support it asks of us and to protect liberated zones.”

          So I’m going with , Hollande is heading down the expected path, vis a vis, the comments above to the UN. The chance of his 75% tax coming to a meaningful outcome for “average France”, more or less zero!

  16. Dv 16


    Education Minister Hekia Parata has vowed that national standards reporting will get “better and better” after schools’ data was published on an Education Ministry website.

    We are addressing the concern that national standards data shouldn’t be considered on its own, so on our site it makes that caveat.”

    HOW is the data going to get better and better.

    NO moderation!!!

  17. Who would fly in an aeroplane with a pilot who refuses read his/her instruments and ignores instructions from the air traffic controllers?

  18. Te Reo Putake 18

    Reasons to be cheerful No94:
    A pompous right wing racist on a vanity blog has just referred to me as The Standard’s taniwha. The clueless git thinks that’s an insult, ho ho!

    • lprent 18.1

      🙂 PG? He does seem to be taking this whole banned thing rather badly. And I’d noticed that he seems to dislike you almost as much as he whines about me. Quite interesting obsessional pattern.

      You notice that he never ever looks at his own behavior. Just doesn’t consider that other people have the right to judge him would be my guess. Or he is incapable of sufficient imagination to see himself as others see him

    • tc 18.2

      Been busy, how long is PG’s ban for? The sites so much better for it as he was like junk mail….volumous and irrelevant.

      I thought the tolerance shown speaks volumes for TS as an oasis of free speech amongst so much low brow talk back centric crap that passes for journalism these days.

      • lprent 18.2.1

        Permanent. http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13082012/#comment-506586

        We tolerate a lot in terms of opinion. But the people who work with content and tech on the site run it. Suggestions are welcome and they do get discussed around the email backend. But repeated backseat driving of telling us what the site should be for and how we shold run it is unwelcome, ineffectual, and simply stupidly ignorant. Having to repeat the warnings about it wastes time – something we are always short on. That is why it is in the policy as a self-martyrdom.

        Trying to dress it up the way PG did to attempt to bypass the wording of the policy just irritates me because it is really really dumb. I only look at intentions and his were pretty plain to anyone who’d watched people playing politics in decades in a party, not to mention innumerable businesses.

        • BloodyOrphan

          Link Needs a Page Number?

          • Draco T Bastard

            Yep, it’s here.

            • BloodyOrphan

              Onya, Thanks M8!
              Wow he got wound up didn’t he?.
              Sounds like “Spoken Words” he was living by at the time, trying to steer “Lefties” away I’d guess.

          • lprent

            Damn. Another good theory dead. I didn’t think it did. Adding it to the fix list. I have a fix for the almost everything to do wih pagination except the links in the comments box on the left. Problem is that page numbers in links are not permalinks.

            After we started getting posts with 200+ comments, the server loads started getting pretty high. So I paged them at 35 toplevel comments per page. Now I have a permanent link issue on fast running posts.

            DtB linked it above.

            • BloodyOrphan

              Bummer, could break all the links after time 🙁

              • lprent

                There is a close off of comments on posts after 30 days.

                • But if they grow fast enough? and you do have links in other places.
                  Only mention it cause I’ve noticed it before.

                  • lprent

                    It is a problem that has shown up over the last year when the numbers of comments abruptly jumped pre and post election. Had to paginate the comments to stop trashing on the server.

                    I have done some work on it and fed some fixes back. But I’ve been constrained for time by release dates at work for taking time off. Need about 4 days to solve it in all cases. The pagination is a display implementation issue – it shouldn’t be showing on links at all.

                    But the hooks and filters have to be coded carefully in the plugins.

      • Vicky32 18.2.2

        I thought the tolerance shown speaks volumes for TS as an oasis of free speech

        Yer having a laugh, right?

    • Morrissey 18.3

      Reasons to be cheerful No94:

      Private Eye allusion noted.

  19. quartz 19

    Cameron Slater and his rightwing friends have lost it after dad4justice made an off-colour comment on Cameron’s post about his mum dying.

    And yet only a few years ago Cameron wrote post after post mocking the death of Folole Muliaga and her sons’ sorrow.

    • lprent 19.1

      I remember those posts. That was the woman who died after the power got cut off and her medial equipment failed with it. That was horrible, and having an arsehole like Camerson gloating on it would have made it worse.

      Cameron is rather known for considering that there would be two standards of justice and fairness. One for him and his mates, and the other for the plebs. For some reason he never seems to think anyone else has feeling apart from people like himself. 

      Bit of a primadonna aristocrat brat verging on sociopath in his thinking.  Personally I lean to the latter interpretation.

  20. Tony P 20

    Why am I having trouble with TS using Chrome? Getting this message when trying to move from one post to the next.

    This webpage has a redirect loop
    The webpage at http://thestandard.org.nz/why-the-left-still-needs-feminism/ has resulted in too many redirects. Clearing your cookies for this site or allowing third-party cookies may fix the problem. If not, it is possibly a server configuration issue and not a problem with your computer.

    Have to keep clearing my browsing data to get anywhere.
    Works ok in IE.

    [lprent: There is nothing on the page. Just tried here on iOS and Linux with chrome. Suggest a uninstall and reinstall of chrome. ]

  21. xtasy 21

    Do not forget that there will be a “Day of Action” against the proposed welfare reforms and further marginalisation and disempowerment of benefit dependent people on 05 October 2012.

    Activities like pickets are planned in various centres.

    Those living in Auckland may inform themselves about this, but a main one appears to be planned to take place in Henderson at midday next Friday.

    See this alternative blogsite for some info:

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