Open mike 30/10/2021

85 comments on “Open mike 30/10/2021 ”

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1. Macro 1

   30 October 2021 at 8:11 am

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AThycGCakk&feature=emb_rel_end
   • Macro 1.1

     30 October 2021 at 8:25 am

     Sorry wrong link above

     https://youtu.be/L9eFABJqGTM
     • joe90 1.1.1

       30 October 2021 at 12:27 pm

       Not sure we should be taking existential cues from a dinosaur.

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYXpRWHVIPE
       • Macro 1.1.1.1

         30 October 2021 at 1:18 pm

         

         Certainly not from the current DINOsaurs* like Manchin and Sinema.

         *Reptilian Democrats In Name Only
         • joe90 1.1.1.1.1

           30 October 2021 at 1:29 pm

           If Dems can get Biden's BBB through, they will have passed nearly $5Trillion in domestic spending despite Manchin, Sinema and a skinny majority. Not bad.
           • Macro 1.1.1.1.1.1

             30 October 2021 at 1:43 pm

             I must say that Joe B has had his work cut out. The Paid family leave and medical leave is gone and so is the proposed Tax on billionaires – Thanks Mauchin. But they are still not there yet – huge disappointment to the progressive members of both Senate and House, and the House has just postponed voting on it until next week.

             House Democrats – again – postponed a vote on the $1 trillion Senate-approved infrastructure bill, pushing off its consideration until at least next week. The delay followed a visit to Capitol Hill by Biden, who asked House Democrats to support both the infrastructure plan and the separate social policy and climate change framework, saying: “We are at an inflection point. The rest of the world wonders whether we can function […] I don’t think it’s hyperbole to say that the House and Senate majorities – and my presidency – will be determined by what happens in the next week.” Progressive Democrats, however, blocked the scheduled vote, saying they wanted to review the written legislative text of the $1.75 trillion social spending outline – and receive assurances that Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema would vote for it, which neither have outright given.
2. francesca 2

   30 October 2021 at 8:22 am

   I hear Jacinda and other politicians invoking the "rules based order" fairly often

   Read this and consider how much we actually value our commitment to human rights

   https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/10/29/special-report-assumptions-vs-facts-how-the-assange-case-confronts-our-biases/

   There's info in here from Selwyn Manning that was new to me
   • Molly 2.1

     30 October 2021 at 1:27 pm

     Thanks Francesca. Have been following this online.
3. francesca 3

   30 October 2021 at 9:00 am

   Yay!!!

   This article put up yesterday was an absolute mish mash of pregnant people (actually in the headline)interspersed with pregnant women

   Today it has been edited with none of the nonsense pregnant people using pregnant women instead

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126805433/covid19-pregnant-women-delaying-getting-vaccinated-playing-russian-roulette
   • miravox 3.1

     30 October 2021 at 9:42 am

     Mixed messaging about the safety of the Covid-19 vaccine in pregnancy early in the pandemic had caused confusion, Cox said

     I don't think mixed messaging about the vaccine is the main problem. I believe the problem is the very clear messaging from the moment a woman considers a pregnancy that anything she eats, drinks, breathes in that is not pure food or pure air will harm her baby. And if she does have that glass of wine, slice of brie or catches a whiff of exhaust fumes on her daily commute she alone is responsible for any perceived defect in her child.

     A mother's guilt is never-ending. In a climate like that, she'd rather die than have any sense she may harm her child by deliberately injecting a vaccine into her pregnant body. Which of course makes no sense because the most harm a person who cares so much could do to her child is not be around for them.
     • Sabine 3.1.1

       30 October 2021 at 10:06 am

       +1
4. GreenBus 4

   30 October 2021 at 9:52 am

   Does Auckland stay in the current level system until all DHB's top to bottom have made it to 90% eligible 2 jabs? Or does Auckland have to get only their own DHB's, 3 – I think, to the target? Can someone please clarify.
   • Andre 4.1

     30 October 2021 at 9:57 am

     When the 3 Auckland DHBs each individually reach 90% fully vaccinated, the Auckland region gets to the red light at the end of the tunnel, ie the traffic light system. Counties Manukau looks likely to be the last one to reach that target, somewhere around mid-December I'm guessing.

     The hard border around the Auckland region will remain until all DHBs nationally reach the 90% double-vaccinated target. At which time the entire nation will change to the traffic light system. edit: It’s probably too soon to predict what might happen to the Auckland border at that time. It may remain in place if Auckland still has significant community transmission and the rest of the country doesn’t.

     All of this is subject to change in response to changing circumstances (including simple political pressure).
     • GreenBus 4.1.1

       30 October 2021 at 10:19 am

       Thanks for that Andre. I was concerned Auckland would have to stay locked down until heaven knows when the whole country hits the target. The end is in sight, at last, for our big apple. Stay strong Auckland.
       • Andre 4.1.1.1

         30 October 2021 at 10:27 am

         Another 7 weeks of home detention with day release for work really isn't much of an "end in sight". Trust me on this.
     • Treetop 4.1.2

       30 October 2021 at 1:54 pm

       Already I can see Covid getting out in every region, this will be the deciding factor. Lockdowns will be required when the health system is unable to cope, regardless of vaccination as antibodies wane or a new mutation overwhelms the vaccine. Vaccination is the only thing which can partially contain Covid without a lockdown.

       Will Covid in every region occur before full vaccination reaches 90% for every DHB?
       • Andre 4.1.2.1

         30 October 2021 at 2:18 pm

         Everyone in New Zealand should expect to be exposed to the virus within a year or so. Even if we get to over 95% vaccination. The Auckland border won't stand much longer against the political pressure building to open it.

         I find it infuriating that locking down with its attendant removal of four Bill of Right rights seems to be viewed with equanimity, but that imposing a few minor restriction and consequences on those that choose to exercise their right to refuse vaccination in a pandemic seems to be a no-go zone.

         It's not a given that some new variant worse than Delta will arise. It's possible that the Delta spike protein is very close to the peak possible match to the ACE-2 receptor on the surface of human cells that it uses to get in. If that's the case, then a virus that evolves enough changes to its spike protein that the antibodies no longer attach, then that altered spike protein also won't be a good fit to the ACE-2 protein and the virus won't be very infectious. Which seems to be the case for that A.30 variant Cricklewood was bedwetting about yesterday.
         • DS 4.1.2.1.1

           30 October 2021 at 10:29 pm

           The Right to Life trumps your BORA nonsense, and I assure you that there is copious public pressure from non-Aucklanders to keep that border closed.

           So long as the external and internal borders remain closed, this outbreak will burn itself out (there are only so many unvaccinated muppets in Auckland). Point is, it will take a while.
           • Andre 4.1.2.1.1.1

             31 October 2021 at 3:45 am

             BORA nonsense? Fuck off, asshole. Even within the Auckland borders we don't have freedom of movement, freedom of association, freedom of peaceful assembly, or freedom of religion, as expressed in the Bill of Rights. At least partly because of some assholes fantasising that the right to refuse medical treatment also confers on them the right to be disease spreaders in workplaces and public spaces.

             Advocating for locking down more than a third of the population for however long it takes a disease outbreak to burn out (which is never; it's going to become endemic) is an appalling disrespect for individual human rights. It's the kind of authoritarian thinking that I want nothing to do with. But it's sadly prevalent among large parts of "the left".

             [RL: You have an argument – but it wasn’t made any better by the first sentence. Chill.]

             [I just moderated another comment of yours for abuse, so adding to RL’s moderation here. Putting you in premod until I see an agreement from you to stop the abuse towards other commenters. If you are unclear on where the boundaries are, just ask, I’m happy to clarify the line between robust debate and abuse/flaming.

             This is a heated, fast moving but long term conversation and my concern is resentment is building up over time betweem regulars. Mods don’t want to have to manage flame wars, so intervening now. See this from the Policy:

             We encourage robust debate and we’re tolerant of dissenting views. But this site run for reasonably rational debate between dissenting viewpoints and we intend to keep it operating that way.

             What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others.

             I also suggest checking your comments because not all mods give a heads up about mod notices. – weka]
             • DS …

               31 October 2021 at 10:17 am

               New Zealand is actually too small for the disease to become endemic, so long as the border remains shut. Influenza actually burns itself out each year in NZ, only to be imported fresh from overseas.

               In this case, so long as the disease is confined to unvaccinated muppets (and there is good reason for thinking it is), it will burn itself out. We're seeing a Delta wave among a clearly defined subset of Auckland, not Auckland generally. At some point (maybe now-ish), the outbreak will peak, and start declining. The key being to keep it confined.

               Yes, I'm authoritarian on this issue. I don't mind. I like not crashing the entire public health system.
             • weka …

               31 October 2021 at 10:34 am

               mod notes for you Andre.
5. Dennis Frank 5

   30 October 2021 at 9:58 am

   FACT Aotearoa​, a group formed to counter misinformation and conspiracy theories in New Zealand, lodged a formal complaint with the New Zealand Law Society​ against the Nelson-based lawyer on Monday.

   Grey, who is co-leader of the NZ Outdoors Party​, has a large following on social media and regularly posts anti-vaccine content, including false claims of Covid-19 deaths and promotion of alternative and unproven treatments. In its complaint FACT Aotearoa said the claim “falls below the high ethical standard of the legal profession and brings the profession into disrepute”.

   The New Zealand Law Society – Te Kāhui Ture o Aotearoa​ said it was prevented by law from disclosing receipt of complaints or making any comment about concerns raised. “This is due to legal requirements placed on us by the Lawyers and Conveyancing Act 2006 which means that we would be breaking the law if we release information about specific complaints or concerns.”

   Complaints received by the society are referred to an independent standards committee for investigation. Complaints deemed serious enough can be referred to the Lawyers and Conveyancers Disciplinary Tribunal.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126828523/formal-complaint-against-antivax-lawyer-lodged-with-the-law-society

   The doctrine of minority rights is the sleeper in this issue. Lawyers bringing the profession into disrepute ain't nothing new, of course, and the default position of the establishment is to fudge the decision-making around a complaint as much as possible. Journos assuming truth instead of establishing it are likewise nothing new, but we ought not to side with the oppressed automatically because delusional thinking is widespread nowadays. Lawyer/politician Grey was on the hikoi which used the delusion of personal sovereignty to have a go defeating state sovereignty.
6. chris T 6

   30 October 2021 at 10:11 am

   Bit left field.

   Having been to Auckland don't get it. And can't go there, but a bit weird timing

   "Auckland, closed to the world by Covid, tops Lonely Planet’s list of best cities to visit"

   Last time I checked it was about 3 dollars for a game of pool. Frankly that auto puts places on my no go list.

   That and the dire public transport.

   Hey. Nice people though. /Big ups there. I still love yus kiwi brothers and brothettes. 🙂

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/29/auckland-closed-to-the-world-by-covid-tops-lonely-planets-list-of-best-cities-to-visit
   • mac1 6.1

     30 October 2021 at 10:19 am

     Heh! According to the article, "the cities were “judged against a criteria addressing topicality, unique experiences, ‘wow’ factor and sustainability”."
   • Ad 6.2

     30 October 2021 at 1:31 pm

     Spent Friday night at Piha, up and down the beach super-black sand with drizzly tropical rain, Pohutukawa cliffs on my right and burnt orange setting sun on my left.

     And I was the only person there.

     If the tourists could just hold off for a bit ………
     • higherstandard 6.2.1

       30 October 2021 at 1:46 pm

       Fish and chip shop still operating ?
       • Ad 6.2.1.1

         30 October 2021 at 1:55 pm

         Closest is Titirangi.
7. Dennis Frank 7

   30 October 2021 at 10:13 am

   Andrew Geddis:

   I still cannot for the life of me see how the overall allocation process could regard the English netball team as being more deserving of a MIQ place than Bergen Graham, a pregnant New Zealand citizen whose request for an emergency spot in MIQ was turned down six times.

   I suspect the decision was not actually made by the process, but by a bureaucrat. To err is human. Our public service has long been notorious for treating the public with contempt – notwithstanding all those public servants who try to do it right.

   Suspicions regarding just how fair and justifiable MIQ’s operation has been in practice are compounded by the way the government has avoided having its allocation decisions scrutinised. On the two occasions that people who were refused emergency MIQ spots took their claims before the courts, previous decisions that they failed to meet the criteria were reversed mid-trial.

   Well yes, Andrew, govt evasion of accountability is a traditional syndrome. The important thing is to protect the anonymity of delinquent public servants. The method used combines privilege with privacy law. Being a law prof means you can't tell the truth of course, so we get why you skip over this bit.

   It may or may not be entirely coincidental that doing so had the consequence of putting the legal action to an end before the High Court had a chance to rule on the government’s actions. And now the government is busy moving the legal basis for making MIQ decisions from secondary legislation into a primary enactment. That this parliamentary move will have the effect of largely insulating the overall MIQ process from being judicially overturned at a time when it is being challenged in the High Court again may or may not be coincidental.

   Yes, best to gamble 50c each way on the issue of coincidence. Correlation ain't causation. Fortunately pesky litigants will be eliminated.

   https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/29-10-2021/andrew-geddis-our-miq-system-is-at-a-legal-and-humanitarian-tipping-point/
   • Sabine 7.1

     30 October 2021 at 11:32 am

     Sport vs pregnant woman. The one is a profit center the other is a cost center.
   • AB 7.2

     30 October 2021 at 12:19 pm

     And yet for 18 months MIQ has pretty much worked in terms of its over-riding objective – stopping Covid-positive people wandering off aeroplanes into the community. There have been only a handful of leaks with unfortunately the last one (Delta) proving ineradicable once it got out – mostly due to declining lockdown compliance.

     And if you expect such a brutal but necessary system to be set up on the fly without producing numerous examples of injustice and the odd outright idiocy – where the hell have you been and what have you spent your life doing?

     Still – it will be good to see the MIQ system wound down and that transition is starting. Though now the armchair critics like to point out that with community transmission in Auckland, Aucklanders now present a statistically greater risk than returning travelers, so we have inconsistent settings. Aside from the obvious fact that transitions are usually messy, the inconsistency argument is an odd one. Why would we create an additional risk for a still partially-vaccinated population, by weakening MIQ safeguards and adding a new source of infection as a nice little top-up to what is already going on in Auckland? Fortunately the government is not that silly.
     • Treetop 7.2.1

       30 October 2021 at 2:12 pm

       The big dumps like over seas, no thanks. The nice little top ups are bad enough.
8. Student 8

   30 October 2021 at 10:49 am

   For an undergraduate exam, I am going to be 'writing' about Maori and the vaccine rollout. I am just after specific examples of the government working with Maori to rollout the vaccine together.
9. Student 9

   30 October 2021 at 11:49 am

   Why was my question about the government working with Maori to rollout the vaccine together removed?
   • weka 9.1

     30 October 2021 at 12:00 pm

     all first time commenter comments get held back to be release manually to prevent spam.
10. Dennis Frank 10

    30 October 2021 at 11:53 am

    Wayne Hope's analysis on TDB is worth a read.

    Clearly, our national health depends upon the number and behaviour of unvaccinated individuals. How, then, do we confront them without condescension, anger or vilification? My answer rests on two observations. First, one must distinguish between non-vaxxers and anti-vaxxers. The former include those who are drug-addicted, mentally unstable, transient, desperately poor and suspicious of legal authority (criminals, overstayers). Individuals who inhabit one or more of these categories are immune to official health messages, government announcements and vaxathon initiatives. Second, anti-vaxxers are diverse and fragmented. If there was no pandemic and no vaccination campaign, they would have little in common.

    What follows is a selection of anti-vaxxer archetypes. I may have missed some. If so, send them in, our national health depends on it. Bear in mind though that there is not necessarily a one-to-one correspondence between each archetype and a given person. Some anti-vaxxers may exhibit a combination of archetypes.

    Very sensible & I commend him for using archetype theory appropriately. He describes seven, and seven is the magic number, so the effect on readers will be magical – but only if the invisible spell works. Regardless, Pythagoras would be proud.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/10/30/anti-vaxxers-a-users-guide/
11. joe90 11

    30 October 2021 at 1:17 pm

    Hoo boy, that cover.

    https://twitter.com/Newsweek/status/1453314681653927945

    https://www.newsweek.com/2021/11/05/covid-now-major-cause-death-kids-many-parents-remain-hesitant-vaccine-1642720.html
12. mikesh 12

    30 October 2021 at 1:28 pm

    First question: Do the unvaccinated who contract covid19 and survive develop natural immunity?

    Second question: Is that natural immunity more reliable than vaccine generated immunity?

    Third question: Is the reporting of vaccine numbers actually understating the true level of immunity in the community?
    • Andre 12.1

      30 October 2021 at 1:46 pm

      1: Mostly, but apparently it's quite variable. Reports of second covid infections were happening before vaccinations started. Since then, reporting interest has shifted more to breakthrough infections. It's worth noting that even in places like the US, there are a lot more vaccinated people than there are covid survivors, so there's no useful info to be gained from just comparing numbers of second covid infections to numbers of breakthrough infections.

      2: Up until recently, there appeared to be a consensus that vaccine-derived immunity was stronger and more reliable than infection-derived immunity. With Delta, that consensus doesn't appear quite as strong.

      3: In New Zealand, very very few people have actually been exposed to the virus and derived immunity. So the only way NZers have immunity is through vaccination, so only going by vaccination numbers is not understating the level of immunity in our community.

      Overseas, yes, there are likely to be significant numbers of the unvaccinated that have acquired immunity through infection. So although in this coming week, it is likely that the percentage of fully vaccinated NZers will pass that of Israel, UK, and Germany, we will still likely have less population immunity than those countries.
      • Sabine 12.1.1

        30 October 2021 at 3:30 pm

        Kourtney Kardashian had Covid as an unvaccinated person and now has covid as a fully vaccinated person. I think the virus does as the virus likes and that the 'vaccines' at best give some protection against severe illness, but that is about all it does and only for a few month at best. Mask, physically distance, santize and don't got to large gatherings for the forseable future. Get tested, get jabbed and hope it is enough.
        • Pete 12.1.1.1

          30 October 2021 at 4:50 pm

          The vaccines only give some protection against severe illness? Well I suppose that's good enough reason for some to not have anyone vaccinated.
          • Sabine 12.1.1.1.1

            30 October 2021 at 7:21 pm

            It is literally all it does. It does not prevent you from catching it, it does not prevent you from transmitting it, it will however in most cases prevent you from dying. If you find an issue with that, don't discuss this with me, but discuss this with more knowledgable people who are saying exactly the same.

            So i repeat for those that have issues understanding how to behave in the times of the plague.

            1. mask up

            2. physically distance from others – 1 – 2 m while waiting in line for example

            3. sanitize like your life depended on it, cause funnily enough it does.

            4. if you are an essential worker or work in a high risk environment get tested regularly, like once a week.

            5. if not already done, get jabbed

            but keep in mind, that the 'vaccine' will not stop you from catching Covid, nor from transmitting it.

            Behave accordingly.
            • Craig H 12.1.1.1.1.1

              30 October 2021 at 9:51 pm

              Immediately after a vaccination, the vaccinated person is 90% less likely to contract Covid. That appears to wane to about 50% over 6 months although it's not clear to me whether that's based on actual studies or antibodies. It's true that it doesn't prevent it completely, but 90% is still pretty good.
        • Treetop 12.1.1.2

          30 October 2021 at 7:09 pm

          I did read that and thought maybe 2 different strains. Appears as though break through with Delta when vaccinated. Not being vaccinated when infectious with a previous strain it is unknown if break through would have occurred.
          • Sabine 12.1.1.2.1

            30 October 2021 at 7:25 pm

            they have had break through cases all along. But it goes hand in hand as what was in then news yesterday via the BBC, namely that the jab will not prevent you from spreading it if you have it – this would be household cases for the most part as you would be isolating at home, nor would it prevent you from catching it if someone else brings it home or to the work place.

            However, chances are that you will feel very little to no discomfort, and only in a few cases so far have serious illness or death happened in these break through cases.

            And yes, new variants would make a breakthrough case easier i would assume.

            https://news.yale.edu/2021/09/07/study-examines-severe-breakthrough-cases-covid-19
      • roblogic 12.1.2

        30 October 2021 at 4:54 pm

        From the studies I've seen, if you survive, and don't get Long Covid, then yes you develop a more effective natural immunity. But it's an unnecessary risk
        • Treetop 12.1.2.1

          30 October 2021 at 7:18 pm

          Not sure if it was on Prime news or newshub this evening, schools in NSW have closed down after opening up recently and in the UK 9% of students have had Covid.
13. observer 13

    30 October 2021 at 1:41 pm

    Another Trumpy protest in central Auckland today.

    That's the accurate description, because when you look at the slogans the language is imported from the USA far right: "Don't tread on me", "The media is the virus", etc.

    Oh, and Auckland's record high number of cases today. Irony is beyond these fools.
    • dv 13.1

      30 October 2021 at 1:51 pm

      So another bump in ak cases in a week or 3
    • observer 13.2

      30 October 2021 at 2:19 pm

      The footage of the protests is beyond parody. First, today of all days, they wave Tonga flags – so NZ should have more "freedom" to infect the poor Tongans?

      Then they chant "Together as one" … solidarity, comrades? No, because "socialism is taking over". Four legs good, two legs better!

      Newmarket, from Herald coverage
    • Treetop 13.3

      30 October 2021 at 2:36 pm

      Spreading Covid is the issue and not an anti vaxers right to protest. Anti vaxers seem to think they have an entitlement to infect children and other people and to overwhelm the health system.
14. Ad 14

    30 October 2021 at 2:00 pm

    Portia Woodman isn't named in the Black Ferns! Is! nothing! sacred!?

    (hope you mend that injury soon)
15. Fireblade 15

    30 October 2021 at 2:15 pm

    https://www.twitter.com/NewshubPolitics/status/1454245810854531075
    • observer 15.1

      30 October 2021 at 2:24 pm

      Because the best way to convince nervous parents is to ignore Medsafe's independence? They will be reassured by Dr Seymour instead?

      It's highly irresponsible, and of course he knows it and he doesn't care. Easy headlines are all that matters.
      • dv 15.1.1

        30 October 2021 at 2:26 pm

        Six months Time

        Seymour railes at govt for not waiting for medsafe approval!!!!!
        Really stupid he is quoted as saying!
        • Sabine 15.1.1.1

          30 October 2021 at 3:34 pm

          It has been approved or is in the process of being approved elsewhere on this planet. Medsafe is literally sleepwalking through a pandemic, but yeah, we have time, its not as if the virus ain't here.

          It has been approved in the US, and maybe that is why the Hologram is asking government to approve here too. But then maybe US American humans are different to NZ humans.
          https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-advisory-panel-oks-pfizer-vaccine-kids-5-11-rcna3726
          • observer 15.1.1.1.1

            30 October 2021 at 3:54 pm

            Medsafe is not sleepwalking, literally or figuratively.

            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/29/covid-19-vaccine-approved-children-latest

            Many people who are in no way "anti-vax" will need to have confidence that a decision is not taken by a government Minister just for a headline. For the sake of a few days it could undermine the entire vaccination programme. To say nothing of all future decisions (boosters, new variants etc)
            • Sabine 15.1.1.1.1.1

              30 October 2021 at 4:49 pm

              Let's agree to have a different opinion on that.
          • Craig H 15.1.1.1.2

            30 October 2021 at 9:57 pm

            Doesn't look like an application has been made yet: https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/status-of-applications.asp
    • Higherstandard 15.2

      30 October 2021 at 2:56 pm

      Medsafe is fairly pedestrian. under resourced and under skilled having lost a large percentage of their more skilled assessors over the last 24 months.

      They also lean heavily on offshore agencies in well regulated markets when making their decisions.

      What Seymour has failed to realise is even if the government stepped in (they won't), the dose in 5-12yrs is only 1/3 of that in older cohorts and I believe we will need to order paediatric specific vaccine vials rather than utilising current stock at smaller volumes (I may be incorrect).

      Additionally the utility of vaccinating children both for their own health and to limit spread of the virus vs. the risk posed is debatable.
      • Andre 15.2.1

        30 October 2021 at 3:10 pm

        I seem to recall some articles saying we were in discussions with Pfizer about the feasibility of using the stocks of adult vaccine we already have. The articles gave the impression that more dilution would be involved, but wasn't specific.

        I've seen plenty of discussion pieces saying the risk/benefit for children is debatable, but the only risk I've seen alluded to in those "debates" is myocarditis. But allegedly myocarditis is a much lower risk in under 12s than it is in over 12s.

        Meanwhile, "lower risk than adults" does not mean "no risk" or even "low enough risk to not be worth worrying about". Over 500 kids in the US have died from covid and a lot more have long-term issues. Scaled to NZ population, that still looks like enough harm to kids to take it very seriously.
16. Treetop 16

    30 October 2021 at 3:24 pm

    It's not a given that some new variant worse than Delta will arise.

    It is not a given that it will not arise. The reinfection of Covid with a different strain with or without vaccination, antibodies on the spike protein appear to have some weaknesses which need to be fully understood. Break through infection also needs to be fully understood as it might not have much to do with waining immunity.

    How many people returning to NZ have long Covid or worsened health conditons due to Covid?
    • Treetop 16.1

      30 October 2021 at 3:40 pm

      Reply to Andre @ 4.1.2.1.
17. Treetop 17

    30 October 2021 at 4:03 pm

    Recovery 29 is on Prime TV at 8.30 pm tonight. It was on Tuesday night, I will rewatch it. It is about going into the Pike River mine drift. Many details were covered, the cost, division in the community, the purpose of re entery.
18. Anker 18

    30 October 2021 at 5:22 pm

    • Thanks for letting us know Treetop
19. Dennis Frank 19

    30 October 2021 at 6:04 pm

    The hunter/gatherer lifestyle is distant from many of us nowaday, so perhaps the PM & partner felt the need to reconnect with it. After all, it's the original evolutionary basis of humanity.

    Robin Pierson, whose Bushmere Arms in Gisborne has been dropped as a venue, says celebrity chef Peter Gordon wanted locally foraged produce and a "hunting and gathering" dining experience for the 150 guests.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jacinda-arderns-wedding-stoush-over-wild-venison-fresh-seafood-jilted-venue-owner-claims/NESPSFASGJ3NF5DEDMYXHCCBV4/

    The Herald on Sunday has seen a raft of email exchanges between Pierson, Gayford and Ardern's electorate secretary Barbara Ward, which reveal how negotiations unravelled over the past few months.

    No kidding!! Isn't that some kind of breach of confidentiality? Get Hager onto this leaked email story pronto. Just say the two words `dirty politics' & I reckon he'll get the angle in a fraction of a second.

    In one, Pierson writes: "Clarke's intentions to provide wild venison for the menu – it is my understanding that this contravenes all food hygiene regulations."

    Now that can't possibly be right. It would mean that all food hygiene regulations mention wild venison. I think someone fed him a little white lie.

    Pierson continues to demand $5000, saying his venue on the outskirts of Gisborne was booked two years ago and the couple owe a cancellation fee. He admits his "feathers were ruffled" by Gordon doing the catering.

    Bird-man? Evolutionary hybrids are quite rare but anything's possible.

    In a final email to Ward, Pierson wrote: "I am no longer interested in responding to your continued false claims and assertions. Your offer of $1250 is not acceptable and I have attached a copy of my original invoice. Please pay asap to prevent this situation from getting even more pear-shaped."

    Is it worth them paying 5k to end the harassment? I wouldn't. I reckon if he had a contract we'd know by now. It's bluff. Capital vs Labour. Next step: court case.
    • joe90 19.1

      30 October 2021 at 6:19 pm

      AFAIK you can't sell your catch but you can serve it to non-paying family/guests if it's professionally butchered .
      • Sabine 19.1.1

        30 October 2021 at 7:40 pm

        yes, and no. It also depends on the food control plan of that particular place. For example – any wild game will have specific requirements to be met in order to be usable and servable at this venue. If this particular venue has not set its food control plan up for this – due to restrictions and hassle to be honest, then it would mean that this particular venue would have to update its food control plan and pass this by the council for approval, at a cost bien sur.

        Also the food control plan will have a list of anyone authorized in the kitchen, front of house etc. The owner of the premises will have to have training records for everyone who is in that kitchen working. Any new person, requires thus training, updated records etc etc etc. Thanks Ministry of Business and Inovation

        For example, i have a total exclusion of peanuts on my site, simply due to the allergen risk. This is in my food control plan. If someone were to bring locally foraged peanuts for a specific cake – a cake that was ordered but not specified as a peanut cake …., or a cake that would be peanuts and a brought in chef, i would have to train this chef on my food control plan, and update my food control plan, and only then were this person allowed to bake this peanut cake in my kitchen.

        Now i totally understand that people are loath to critique the PM on anything, but in this case, if she had a contract, or a verbal agreement, and there are emails pertaining to this, then pay the 5 grand and go have your foraging and gathering wedding elsewhere.
      • Graeme 19.1.2

        30 October 2021 at 10:03 pm

        This all seems very odd in a small town like Gisborne. Pierson's website says he's been there 20 years at least, in that time you'd have built up a fairly accurate reputation and people would know what you can do and can't. Clarke and family should have been able to have sussed the organisation and management out and management out and known what was coming.

        It's pretty common for high level wedding events to include a celebrity chef and team. Venues here work around that and embrace it to enhance their reputation and often learn heaps. Some just have a very top end kitchen and the event organisers arrange the kitchen team. It sort of reads that Pierson was offered the dream gig and blew it.

        As for wild game at a wedding, it's certainly a Southland tradition and is common in hunting circles. Have been to several weddings and flash places here where the groom and party have provided game and kai moana, once to the chef's specifications and it was a very enjoyable night, and foraging expeditions for the lads.
    • Sabine 19.2

      30 October 2021 at 7:31 pm

      It is called a cancelation fee.

      Any venue will have that in a contract. So if the PM and her husband to be have signed a binding agreement that they will use these premises i would suggest that they do the correct thing and pay the 5 grand. Its not as if it a lot of money to them. It is also called a Place holder fee. Once booked, and this was booked before covid, they would have refused any other occasion to happen at that time. And for what its worth, that email exchange can actually be proof of that agreement, and i would also like to point out that verbal agreements can be considered fully binding and legal.

      But then, right, how dare these businesses inconvenience the most powerful women and hubby. Don't they know their limits and place?

      The question is, why on earth would you want a lavish 150 people strong wedding during a pandemic where people aren't even allowed out of quarantine – vaxxed and covid free (per tests) to see a dying dad.

      Fwiw, i have a cancellation fee of 30% of the sum total for any order as they days of work for these orders are booked in, and other orders at that time either will have to be done at a different time or refused.
      • Dennis Frank 19.2.1

        30 October 2021 at 7:47 pm

        I appreciate your insight into the situation Sabine, and it sounds like that scenario could apply as you suggest. However I suspect they didn't sign a contract. I think if they had they'd already have paid the cancellation fee.

        Seems to me they were still negotiating the terms of the contract, and that negotiation which dragged on many months was what the email trail actually documents.

        Re the 150/pandemic thing, yeah that's probably why it has dragged out so long. They've been stalled by Delta. Will Neve be bridesmaid in the new year? That's the question the women's mag editors will be pondering. Paparazzi alert!
        • Sabine 19.2.1.1

          30 October 2021 at 7:53 pm

          As i said, if they had a verbal agreement, and the emails pertain to that, and if he can prove say that he refused other events for this timeframe, then he has a case.

          In any case, this is petty, bullshitty and in the times of the plague in which hospitality businesses suffer just plain ugly.

          My point being this guy is not pretending that someone booked his venue. Someone did. Someone told him a different cook was wanted. Someone told him wild food would be hunted and prepared on his premises by that cook etc etc etc.

          So clearly there was an understanding that that would happen there, and sorry mate, but food control plan is food control plan. He breaks his plan he can lose his business.

          And frankly i find the idea that some multi millionaires (and both fall in that category) would battle it out publicly over 5 grand is just plain sad. And it does not paint the venue owner in a sad light, but the PM and her husband to be.
        • Sabine 19.2.1.2

          30 October 2021 at 7:54 pm

          Also, first you book and you state how many people etc etc etc and then you plan. Do not plan a wedding before you have the venue secured as you might find yourself without one.

          Also Delta arrived in India in April and in NZ in July. so that too ain’t a good excuse.
          The point is, if you cancel a booked venue expect a cancellation fee. If you cancel a booked venue because you need specially hunted food, specially gathered food, specially brought in cook/chefs then you pay the cancellation fee.
          If the venue cancels on you, you would expect a total refund of what ever you paid to secure the venue.
          Securing he venue is the first thing you do when holding such a schindig.
          Last she is the PM, they would have a contract. Seriously, as she would not want to show up in her wedding gown, just to find someone else who booked with a contract holding their wedding.
          • Dennis Frank 19.2.1.2.1

            30 October 2021 at 8:25 pm

            You make a strong case – I can see why business owner/operators get so grumpy about regulations. One of my younger brothers is to the right of ACT and you ought to hear him go on about that stuff. He's built several businesses, thinks the Nats are a joke, watches only Fox News etc. I had to learn compassion – it's a sad fate when folks box themselves into a social niche so tight they can't get out.
            • Sabine 19.2.1.2.1.1

              30 October 2021 at 8:34 pm

              These rules and regulations are in place so that you don't get salmonella, or food poisioning, or be served possum stew rather then the Osso Bucca you ordered. Can't help you there with your younger brother on that, he will have to live with the fact that rules exists and that people have to abide by them.

              The reason i explained this is as people seem to really have no idea actually what goes into raising a successful eatery or fine restaurant. It is a lot of work, requires skilled and trained staff (even if they are migrants they are skilled and trained), and there are rules for everything, down to the point of how many times a day you have to check temperatures of your fridges and freezers.

              So yes, you can hunt a wild deer, you can get it butchered by someone who knows what they do, and you can serve it in your back yard. But try to bring this into any legal lisenced premise that is not set up for it, or has a food control plan that does not allow for it, and it ain't a happening thing. Not because the business would not want too, but because it is too costly to make it so, and breaking the rules means to get fined many many dollars and lose business and reputation.

              So they should pay the cancellation fee and have a back yard wedding with a famous chef, and hunted and gathered food. Non of this needs anymore publicity.
20. joe90 20

    30 October 2021 at 6:07 pm

    Fuck these people suffer.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1454291962023092225

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1454295678511947777

    https://meduza.io/news/2021/10/29/rosstat-za-devyat-mesyatsev-v-rossii-umerli-299-tysyach-chelovek-s-koronavirusom

    google translate
    • Treetop 20.1

      30 October 2021 at 7:32 pm

      Some serious analysis is required on how vaccines are performing. Surely the vaccines are being tested on past strains and new strains which are emerging. Russia is going into the winter period in a month.
21. Grafton Gully 21

    30 October 2021 at 6:25 pm

    "vaccinating the world should remain the priority."

    https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2665-9913%2821%2900330-1
22. Sabine 22

    30 October 2021 at 7:54 pm

    Is there are reason my comments fall into moderation?
    • lprent 22.1

      30 October 2021 at 8:02 pm

      Not that I am aware of. But I will have a look at the next one that does.
      • Sabine 22.1.1

        30 October 2021 at 8:06 pm

        Not always, just every now and then for a few days. Usually that happens when there are links or to many but it is now doing it on standard comments with no links either.

        cheers.
        • Dennis Frank 22.1.1.1

          30 October 2021 at 8:09 pm

          If you copy text with links, right-click on them before posting & select unlink on each one. Sometimes I forget & mine end up in moderation/purgatory too.
          • Sabine 22.1.1.1.1

            30 October 2021 at 8:12 pm

            These are comments without links. And i usually unlink before posting to facilitate posting. It's just a wee glitch in the matrix. 🙂
        • weka 22.1.1.2

          30 October 2021 at 10:40 pm

          there was a word in the filter that you use a lot. It's been removed, so you shouldn't have a problem now.
          • Sabine 22.1.1.2.1

            31 October 2021 at 2:24 am

            what word is it?
      • weka 22.1.2

        30 October 2021 at 10:09 pm

        Sabine uses one of the words in the filter a lot, but I see you've had a clean out 🙂

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