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Open Mike 30/10/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 30th, 2017 - 221 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

221 comments on “Open Mike 30/10/2017 ”

  1. Ed 1

    It seems like every day we wake up to more good news.

    ‘Labour’s education plans revealed: Primary school league tables axed, big NCEA shakeup.

    Primary school league tables will be axed, and high-school exams are in for a big shake-up as the new Labour-led Government moves to make schools focus on learning rather than assessment.

    ……National Standards, which set out levels of literacy and numeracy for Years 1 to 8, will be abolished and schools will be free to choose their own ways of assessing children’s progress.

    “There are a range of tools that schools can use to do that already, but what we won’t be doing is centrally collecting that data and using it to create league tables. That is a matter between teachers and parents,” Hipkins said.

    He has also signalled a review of the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) in secondary schools aimed partly at encouraging students not to enter NCEA three years in a row.

    “You don’t have to do all three levels but the culture is that all kids do all three, so how do we encourage people to use the flexibility that NCEA provides? That is one of the questions,” he said.


    • savenz 1.1

      +100 good moves by new government.

    • thevoiceofreason 1.2

      My issue with this is that speaking as a parent, National Standards are an easy check on your child’s progress on the education basics. I DO NOT agree with their use for the purposes of forming “league-tables” and I accept the fact that they do create additional overhead for primary teachers.

      But shouldn’t teachers be accountable to parents for educating their kids? And before you fire up the hairdryers as a point of full disclosure, I am a secondary teacher (so I have a few comments on NCEA to follow) and I feel an obligation to parents in the same way as any other respectable profession feels an obligation to their client to discharge their responsibility with full diligence and care. Yes it requires hard work but that’s where professional pride comes in. I am not a primary teacher, and at the point at which the additional overhead interferes with teaching, then sure a balance needs to be maintained.

      On NCEA – I totally agree with the conclusion that most teachers are teaching to assessment rather than to concentrating on meaningful learning. Explicit Level 1 assessment should be eliminated with Level 2 to be the culmination of a programme of two year’s work (Year 11 & 12). That would give the breathing space required to build a proper base of knowledge and understanding without the artificial pressures of a need to assess.

      Ok I retreat to my foxhole now …

      • greywarshark 1.2.1

        Haven’t teachers always been supposed to keep parents informed? Of course if you are a helicopter parent hovering above your children all the time you will cast a shadow over them, and likely deteriorate their wider education, and of course this is the object of NCEA: To concentrate on the basics. Decided by government advisors who have concentrated on the basics themselves that fitted them for the job they are in.

        Without NCEA I have managed to get through to today understanding much and able to talk to a wide range of people, acknowledging they know more about their specialty than me. But I learn from them, and also revised formal and informal education – might go to workshops, and that is what has been announced as the way forward for all of us, lifelong learning. But a lot of such pronouncements are just fog to sound good and take our attention, while on the stage behind the curtain, the movers and shakers in power are selling off the stage sets and sound gear for a song.

        Treasure your teachers, encourage them, talk to them about what difficulties you think your child is having. Ask them what would help the child to achieve and take them seriously. This would be a big change for many parents. The teachers could make a change by stating critically that parents aren’t doing their jobs properly to encourage their kids and try for stability and kind, positive attitudes to their kids and reasonable systems and controls so the kids get to school ready to learn, and able to interact co-operatively with other people.

        • thevoiceofreason

          100% agree with your comments. Problem is the type of parent you describe (engaged in a positive, non-helicopter sort of way) are few and far between. The vast majority of parents send their kids off to school for 13 years and hope the system will impart a few skills on them to render them employable.

          The total overhaul of the education system you describe is still many moons away, but it does have to come in time because there isn’t a day that goes by when I question what we are learning in the classroom and whether it has any true point in assisting them to become well-adjusted contributors to society once they are ready.

          • tracey

            You are describing lack of interest from most parents so that suggests they dont requite accountability?

            There must be a balance. Some Parents certainly seem to expect a higher amount of personal accountability from teachers than from their nurses, doctors, police etc. For me, as a tertiary educator, a problem is parents want their children taught how they were taught AND consider themselves pedagogy experts where they dont consider themselves medical or policing experts.

            There is a default position for some parents that teachers are lazy and dont know stuff

            • thevoiceofreason

              “You are describing lack of interest from most parents so that suggests they dont requite accountability?”

              Yes, I doubt many parents bother to read reports beyond a cursory glance – time-poor life and all that. Whether they want accountability or they should get it. I guess that’s one way of lifting the profession to the same sort of respectability that it is afforded in other jurisdictions and would put it on the same level as doctors, nurses, police etc.

              • repateet

                Lift respect and understanding as to that of other professions but also get some recognition of the relationship to other occupations.

                You don’t stand in the shop and tell the mechanic how to fix your car, you defer to their knowledge, experience and skill. And you don’t expect her /him to turn your Toyota Yaris into a Lamborghini.

              • tracey

                Teacher accountability is way higher than you suggest. My sense is teachers are not respected because too many parents co sider themselves experts cos they had children. Nurses are respected but poorly paid and still treated quite poorly by many doctors and admin…

      • Molly 1.2.2

        “My issue with this is that speaking as a parent, National Standards are an easy check on your child’s progress on the education basics. I”

        National Standards create an arbitrary milestone for literacy and numeracy for every child at a specific age. They don’t provide an “easy check”, it is a meaningless measure when you take into account the different learning styles of each child, and the often great cognitive leaps students can take in a supported learning environment.

        The ease with which a “score” can be reviewed by a parent, is paid for by the time and energy put by the school, and your children’s teachers, into supporting the system of administration, review and implementation of National Standards.

        That cost reduces the time, effort and energy into providing your children with a truly supportive, and encouraging learning environment.

        Teachers are already accountable. Parents are too. If you want add to your knowledge of how your children are at school, ask them. Their feedback on how they are doing can be added to your regular feedback from the school to give you a better understanding of how your child – as an individual – is managing at school.

        As for NCEA, would be interesting to see details about what the changes are before commenting. The NCEA system does encourage internal assessments throughout the year as opposed to the previous scaled end-of-year exams which were scaled to fail 50% of candidates. The flaws with NCEA are most likely a result of changing governments over the last fifteen years, which always made implementation a piecemeal affair.

        • JanM

          That is an excellent explanation – thanks Molly.
          As a recently retired early childhood teacher who sometimes volunteers in my grandson’s new entrant classroom, it has broken my heart to see how limiting and ineffective National Standards has been for him, his classmates and his teacher. She will be jumping for joy to see such an appalling system, I know.
          It will be interesting to see if they re-focus on the great new curriculum that the last Labour Government introduced just before going out of office. National ignored it, providing no PD for it and imposing NS in such a way that it could not be successfully implemented.

      • tracey 1.2.3

        Do you regulary meet with your child’s teacher to ask? Do you monitor your childs progress yourself? What are you looking for?

      • Crashcart 1.2.4

        The problem I have with the National Standards is they are not catered to students. I have a son with a disability that effects his fine motor skills. He works hard at school and has good teachers. He gets great support there.

        However at the regular 3 way meetings its always the same feed back. Lucas is behind the national standard and is not expected to meet them. We all know that is the case and why. There is no feed back on where he does well out side of the narrow confines of National Standards. That bit of paper that goes back to central government doesn’t have any nuance to it. Just seen as another failing student to add to the stats.

        • Draco T Bastard

          And, IIRC, that was the big complaint that the teachers and informed parents had about National Standards. It would paint children as failing even though they weren’t.

    • Antoine 1.3

      > high-school exams are in for a big shake-up as the new Labour-led Government moves to make schools focus on learning rather than assessment

      What does this mean in practice? (Sounds good on the face of it)


      • Molly 1.3.1

        Most likely project based learning, similar to what is happening in Finland.

        My issue with something along these lines, is that the education culture in Finland is entirely different to our current state of affairs in NZ. Importing a system without changing the culture both within education, and parents and community expectations reduces the chance of success being repeated here.

        • Antoine

          > Most likely project based learning, similar to what is happening in Finland.

          Without wanting to be rude, that sounds like a bit of a guess?


          • Molly

            Just thought the information might give you some insight into what a model without assessment might look like, which is what you asked for – not specific policy detail.

            FWIW, I know someone working in NZQA who has involved in workshops looking at the Finland based system for the last couple of years as a means to improve educational outcomes at high school level.

            If the incoming government is aware of this project/research it aligns with removing assessment based models.

          • tracey

            How could it be more than a guess given molly isnt privvy to govt discussions?

            Employers say they want employees with soft skills. Exams do not measure or develop those. Activity and project based learning such as being used by places like mindlab. Where students learn to ask questions, and with guidance find answers amongst themselves, classtoom resources and technology. Where getting answers wrong is part of the problem solving journey and doesnt get slammed by a fail mark but is viewed as part of the overall learning toward the project outcome

            This kind of learning is tejectrd by many students and many more parents eho want to go to class get told the “answers” sit an exam, regurgitate the answers and get a mark. They want all the riles up front no grey area… and modt of all they want what they “paid for” which is to have a chikd on the winning team..

            • thevoiceofreason

              And to your comment above tracey – parents will only respect an education that they got (i.e. exams and the directed instruction). So in that sense an element of assessment has to remain or you will probably lose an entire section of the population over the age of about 50 (disclaimer – I’m 48!).

              • JanM

                Not the entire section, just the dimmer portion of it ( I’m 71, by the way)

              • tracey

                I am not talking about abolishing assessment I am talking about changing what is assessed and how it is assessed. In my opinion some of this change is resisted by some teachers too, and in tertiary where it is easy to stand up and talk at a room for 50 to 100 mins and leave. Leading activiyies, problem solving etc takes more prep and skill.

                • KJT

                  Totally agree and I am 58.

                  But I have been involved in Teaching adults all my life, and taking part as a student, for situations where mastery, not a percentage, is mandatory.

                  So called soft skills, including learning to anticipate and recover from failures, are an essential part of working in a high stakes profession.

                  Allowing students to fail in a controlled situation is an essential part of learning. In fact most people don’t retain the lesson, unless they have the mistakes to remember.

                  I was interested, and rather taken aback, to find out when I did go to University, as an adult student, that engineering students were passed when they got 60% in a written exam. Not to mention the abysmal standard of teaching, with some notable exceptions, and the rote type written exams. (Which rewarded those with photographic memories, rather than understanding).

                  Wonder which part of a building was designed with the 40% fail rate.

              • tracey

                Not me. I am 51!

  2. Ed 2

    More good news.

    Food and drink giants told ‘all options are on the table’

    The food and drink industry is on notice to cut down on sugar in products – with the new Health Minister not ruling out regulation or a sugary drink tax.
    Labour accused the last Government of inaction on the issue of obesity and accused some manufacturers of rigging a labelling system designed to flag healthy products to shoppers.
    Health Minister David Clark said his preference was to work with the industry to develop a better front-of-pack labelling system, and to set firm goals to reduce sugar content in packaged food.
    Clark said there was “growing evidence” around the effectiveness of a sugary drink tax’


    • Clark said there was “growing evidence” around the effectiveness of a sugary drink tax, but such a step wasn’t a silver bullet because it was only focused on drinks.

      I’d say the only thing growing there is the level of wishful thinking. Still, at least he’s not making rash promises – yet.

        • Psycho Milt

          There’s certainly evidence that taxing something causes people to consume less of it, but the “effectiveness” in question here is the effectiveness of a tax in reducing obesity and diabetes, which so far consists entirely of wishful thinking.

            • Psycho Milt

              Again, there’s plenty of evidence that sugar (more accurately, refined carbohydrates in general) is the cause of obesity and diabetes, but that’s not evidence that a sugary-drinks tax would have any effect on obesity and diabetes.

              • Simple logical connection: Sugar tax -> reduced consumption of sugar -> less obesity due to excess sugar consumption.

                • For every problem, there is a simple, and wrong, solution.

                  TL/DR: for a sugary-drinks tax to work, it would require that sugary drinks were the major reason for obesity and diabetes, and that the tax would cause a major reduction in consumption. Neither of those is likely.

                  Longer version:

                  Suppose you have a population that’s consuming 300 grams of refined carbs from various sources (sugar, white flour, white rice etc) per day. That population gets obese and has a high incidence of type-2 diabetes. You introduce a sugary-drinks tax, and people cut their consumption of sugary drinks by an average of 8% (rounding up that Mexican average).

                  However, only a part of the 300 gms refined carbs per day comes from sugary drinks. Assuming a person has a real taste for this stuff and drinks two cans a day, that’s around 70 gms. An 8% reduction would reduce that by 5.6 gms, let’s be generous and call it 6.

                  So, instead of consuming 300 gms of refined carbs per day, the population consumes 293 gms of refined carbs per day, and is as obese and diabetes-ridden as before. The tax has no discernable effect on obesity and type-2 diabetes.

                  • I see your problem – you’re focussing solely upon drinks when the legislation is looking at taxing sugar across all packaged foods. What the sugary drinks tax is showing is that it works and we can assume that it would work across other foods as well. A better option would probably be regulation setting maximum levels of sugar.

                    • Doesn’t make much difference. Suppose 120 gms comes from sugar and you get people to reduce that by 8%. Hooray! Now it’s only 290 gms of refined carbs per day! Which makes for just as much obesity and diabetes as before. The only things that can make a difference are things that significantly drop that refined carb intake and a sugar tax isn’t going to do it, unless it’s at the level where dairies start getting armed robbers trying to steal bags of sugar.

      • tracey 2.1.2

        Address the price of the so called good food first…

    • savenz 2.2

      Isn’t NZ one of the most obese nation’s in the world? With rises in diabetes this is an area that the new government need to take a proactive approach.

      The National party was the poodle for the sugar and poor nutritional food multinational business and have helped NZ become a leader in areas we would prefer not be the leaders in. Such as Obesity.

      • Tricledrown 2.2.1

        With Katherine Rich at the head of the food and grocery council a lobby group involved deeply in Dirty politics shows how low the obesity purveyers are willing to go.

    • Bill 2.3

      Like the tobacco tax, a sugar tax would hit poor people hard and barely impact on wealthier people.

      I’ve just come across this piece by Dreadwomyn – Food and Success on a Shite Income – off the back of a comment I made on the Welfare Reform post.

      Read it before you get all high and mighty about food choices and taxes.

      From Dreadwomyns post (on food choices)

      This is a privilege check not a health check.

  3. adam 3

    Liberalism, such a vicious beast when it has Tories at the helm.

  4. cleangreen 4

    Retired Green Party MP Sue Kedgley leads the charge to save our electric bses in Wellington – a must read ;


    New government inspires 11th-hour trolley bus rescue bid
    Tom Hunt 06:12, October 30 2017

    Trolley wires are spread across many streets in central Wellington.
    An 11th hour bid to save Wellington’s trolley buses is set to come down to the wire.
    With at least two of New Zealand’s three Government partners having previously stated they want to save the trolleys, some Greater Wellington Regional councillors have felt emboldened to make the bid to at least hold off on their decommissioning – set to begin this week.
    Labour did not campaign to either save or get rid of Wellington’s trolley buses, but a spokesman said Transport Minister Phil Twyford has asked for some quick-turnaround advice from officials on the issue and hoped to have something to say soon.

    • savenz 4.1

      I’d take Sue Kedgley’s advice over the corruption in Ministry of Transport’s advice, anyday.

    • The Chairman 5.1

      And answers are unlikely to be forthcoming.

      “The lack of political oxygen to address the saga can be partly explained by the all-consuming election campaign, but also there are suggestions our two largest parties have made self-interest and national interest calculations in declining to address questions over Yang.”

    • veutoviper 5.2

      For those wondering …

      This link is to Matt Nippert’s latest article in his continuing investigation into National MP, Jian Yang, and his employment and academic etc history in China, and subsequent rise in the NZ National Party and as an advisor to Key etc.

      Well worth reading – another excellent ongoing investigation by Nippert IMHO. And not over by any means.

    • A spokesman Immigration NZ went as far as to say “no new information has come to light which would warrant an investigation”, despite the facts being novel enough to warrant front-page coverage last month in the London-based Financial Times.

      Could have sworn the fact that he lied on his citizenship application at the behest of the Chinese government was new information and that it was grounds for instant removal of the citizenship gained through fraud.

      Or did immigration know and just didn’t tell anybody?

      Either or, there needs to be an investigation and the removal of his NZ citizenship.

  5. Ad 6

    An explicit ban on house sales to foreigners?

    “New Trade Minister David Parker is considering advice that an explicit ban on house sales to offshore speculators could be acceptable under the TPP trade deal if it is passed into New Zealand law before the trade deal comes into force.

    Parker emphatically rejected using a stamp duty to achieve the same result, which is the provision that former Trade Minister Tim Groser negotiated into the trade deal following Labour’s call to carve out a right for a future government to impose a ban.

    And in an interview with the Herald, Parker hit out at Groser, now New Zealand’s ambassador in Washington, saying he had “wedged” Labour on the issue of house sales.

    But he said any issue of recalling Groser from the post would be up to Foreign Minister Winston Peters.”


    Looks like a clearout at MFAT coming as well.
    Good news all round.

    • Carolyn_nth 6.1

      Hang on! What is likely to be in the TPPA, that means IF restrictions on house sales to foreigners are not in place before the TPPA is signed, then the ban can’t happen later?

      Labour needs to come clean on what restrictions to NZ making new regulations and laws the TPPA will block!

      • greywarshark 6.1.1

        Good point Carolyn-nth
        Housing is just one thing that will be affected by TPPA. It is a good idea to look through the old-fashioned telephone book, at the beginning, where all our government departments are listed. This will remind you of the many aspects that TPPA will affect and influence.

        Like putting fuel into a car, making sure you have coolant in your radiator, the key to start. Can’t go anywhere without them, though if you can open the car doors, a helpful bunch of people can push it a short distance. But further progress is stymied as they say in the USA along with a lot of other things.

        The corps in the powerful nations will continue going forward and there will be a growing number of corpses here. We have the suicides and work place deaths now, that is one stat that will grow, but only for a time. Because it is an unwanted stat so the Stats Dept will eventually be directed to stop recording them as deaths which can be recognised as from neglect of the country and people, and call them drug-related, a private fault not a public. That will happen, not overnight, not next year but that is the near scenario.

      • Ad 6.1.2

        Parker is looking for a Plan B, not a Plan A:
        What the previous government has encumbered us with is a highly advanced multilateral deal of which we are a very, very small part. So changing it will be extraordinarily difficult. It is also very unlikely that this government will pull out altogether even with Peters as Foreign Minister.

        So what Parker is looking for is a “first hundred days” piece of legislation that can go in before the Tokyo round is settled.

        Parker is also putting an explicit shot across Groser’s bow: Groser is MFAT staff and a full and proper National Party supporter. That means Parker is laying the ground to offload blame for failure to achieve a foreigner-sale-ban-provision to an explicitly politicised MFAT.

        This in turn gives him the ammunition to clean MFAT out.

      • Bill 6.1.3

        Well, let’s imagine a company had designs to build a property portfolio – or even just claimed it had been thinking about such a move – and some post TPP piece of legislation made that impossible (or even just more difficult or expensive).

        Well, that’s it off to the Investor-State Disputes Tribunal innit?

        Otherwise a change can be made to domestic law that impacts on trade and profit if all parties to the Agreement permit any proposed change. And that’s not bloody likely in the “dog eat dog” environment of ‘free trade’ and secured leverage.

    • savenz 6.2

      Ban sales to non citizens, make NZ citizenship MUCH harder and longer to get and put a stamp duty and extra tax on property held by individuals, trusts and companies who are not resident here. Someone has to clean up John Key’s messes.

      • Actually, the way too open regime we have for foreign ownership started back in the 1980s. The Key National government merely left it where it was an ignored all the public sentiment to change it.

        Labour has been listening somewhat but still don’t seem to be going as far as NZers want which is a full ban on foreign ownership.

    • The Chairman 6.3

      Wouldn’t a stamp duty capture, thus deter more offshore investors than Labour’s so-called ban, which has a number of exemptions?

      • Molly 6.3.1

        Stamp duties can be avoided quite easily, as has happened in the UK. Especially for real-estate investors.

        If a property is bought as an asset for a company, the sale of the company transfers the property asset without necessitating the change in the Land registry. Misses out on stamp duty.

        • The Chairman

          Just as a foreign buyer could start up a NZ based company and bypass Labour’s proposed ban, loopholes will be required to be plugged.

          • Molly

            The stamp duty has tried and failed in the UK according to Danny Dorling – Author of All That Is Solid.

            As you mention, the loopholes need to be plugged.

            It depends on what your intent is.

            Is it to stop foreign ownership, or is it to collect some form of tax?

            If it is to stop foreign ownership then put rules in place that do so. You don’t need to add a further tax on top of it.

            If you wish to collect stamp duty for another reason, eg. to provide a social housing grant, pay for state housing etc. then do it.

            There is no need to integrate the two in order to restrict ownership.

            • The Chairman

              Labour’s “rules” in their proposal won’t stop foreign investment in housing.

              And one of the problems is they can’t put “rules” in place to fully do so due to previous international agreements. Therefore, rules can’t plug the loopholes in this case.

              Apparently, stamp duty also has implications. It’s a problem in the Korea FTA – a land tax is allowed but stamp duty isn’t.

              Which is why Key was looking at a land tax. And why Labour may also have to look at other options.

              Can a tax stop offshore investment? If set high enough (and loopholes are plugged) it will deter most. And the benefit is, with the tax set high, numbers would be largely reduced. And the one or two that continue to invest will help fund the construction of new homes.

              • Molly

                Prince Edward Island in Nova Scotia, puts a higher rates on properties owned by non-residents.

                Other avenues include a percentage “take” on every sale into a fund for social housing.

                Permanent affordability on properties.

                There are mechanisms already being used in other places, that directly target to produce the outcome that is wanted.

                I still don’t understand, why you persist in thinking an “economic deterrent” is the go-to. We have to legislate for the outcomes we want, not continue to legislate for the market conditions that will produce the outcomes we want.

                • The Chairman

                  “I still don’t understand, why you persist in thinking an “economic deterrent” is the go-to. We have to legislate for the outcomes we want, not continue to legislate for the market conditions that will produce the outcomes we want.”

                  As I explained above, we can’t simply legislate due to signing our sovereignty away in previous international agreements. Hence the need to look at other avenues.

                  Taking a percentage take on every sale to a foreign buyer or placing higher rates on properties owned by non-residents are economic deterrents.

    • Antoine 6.4

      > Looks like a clearout at MFAT coming as well.

      Where do you get that from?


    • tracey 6.5

      Ambassadors can be gone undrr change of govt or do we have to shake them with gold?

      • veutoviper 6.5.1

        Off the top of my head, my understanding is that where an Ambassador appointment has been a “Political” appointment, then the appointee will usually either quietly move on of their own accord or agree to move on (possibly with some support other than money – eg a recommendation for an appointment to an international body or the like. In the case of such ‘political’ appointments, I am not sure whether the Ambassador is technically a MFAT employee per se.

        IIRC there have been instances, however, where the incoming government has endorsed the continuation of some ‘political’ appointments as they have no difficulties in the individual continuing to represent NZ. Cannot name an instance immediately, but vague memory of a number of instances of this in the past.

        On the other hand, if the Ambassador is a longterm career diplomat, there is unlikely to be a change unless the incoming new government has a very strong reason for wanting a change of person in the role and can satisfy a lot of criteria, including NZ employment law.

        I don’t recall any instances where there has been any suggestion, rumour or evidence of “shakes with gold”.

        • tracey

          No golden handshakes then. Good.

          • Zorb6

            The term used when being remunerated for leaving an employment position is a Golden Parachute. A Golden Handshake fee is usually the sign on fee AFAIK.

  6. cleangreen 7

    Official Complaint of RNZ presenter Guyon Espiner display of “bias/unreasonable hostile action” toward PM Ardern today, sent to the Minister of broadcasting Hon’ Care Curran. http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/342632/pm-jacinda-ardern-in-the-studio
    Watch at the 7 minute point of this video please. Guyon Espiner AT THE NINE MINUTE POINT becomes very overpowering and aggressive and stopped JACINDA FROM COMPLETING HER POINTS.

    We were very disturbed after listening to this interview this morning with PM Ardern and Guyon Espiner. As the interview progressed he becomes hostile toward Jacinda- very un-acceptable journalism.

    Fire – Guyon Espiner-he showed unacceptable aggressiveness towards our new Prime Minister today.

    • Ed1 7.1

      I fund it difficult to work out what the questions were – no sooner had Ardern started answering one Espiner was asking his next question – drowning both out.

      • cleangreen 7.1.1

        Ed That was exactly what hit me to;

        So we sent a formal letter of complaint to the new Minister of Broadcasting Clare Curran today so we now will await the response as Guyon Espiner seems to be nothing but another National ‘sleeper’ shill.

    • James 7.2

      Would you have called for his firing if he did that to Key?

      • Stuart Munro 7.2.1

        No-one ever did it to Key though did they? The slippery POS got away with grand larceny on a routine basis without the MSM mouthpieces even murmuring – and Labour aren’t getting the same treatment.

        • james

          of course they did.

          Your bias makes you blind.

          • dv

            Oh yes John Cambell did and he got sacked!!

            I have always thought that when interrupted stop, wait till interruption is over (may be pause and ask if finished) then go back to complete the answer to the question.

          • Stuart Munro

            Key even went so far as to get Campbell fired because he didn’t want to have to answer such questions.

            Don’t try to pretend that didn’t affect the behavior of remaining MSM journalists.

            Bias? Coming from toxic trash like you? Bwahahaha!

            [lprent: Banned for 1 month. I really don’t like idiots asserting ‘facts’ that they can’t prove, and then abusing everyone who calls them on it. It makes for an uninteresting and unedifying reading. It doesn’t win an argument. It just incurs my wrath. For your future reference, when you overstate – just apologize for your mistake and then explain what you know or think. Only moronic trolls assert false facts and then keep trying to assert or divert. ]

            • Stunned Mullet

              Campbell’s ratings got the show cancelled.

              • Dv

                I think James has answered you
                Your bias makes you blind.

                • james

                  John Cambell was not fired because of how he spoke to Key – But since you and Munro say its so – how about backing it up with any evidence at all?

                  • dv

                    From you comment

                    of course they did.

                    Your evidence std James

                    • james

                      No – as stated above Campbell’s ratings got the show cancelled.

                      To state anything different without any evidence is a simple lie.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    You’re a troll – how about you show the ratings you claim justified moving him on? Wouldn’t want you just to be lazy.

                    • james

                      You made the accusation – You should back it up as opposed to asking someone to disprove it.

                      Its obvious you cannot – thus your pathetic attempts to avoid backing up your own comments.

                • Stunned Mullet



                  I would prefer Campbell live to the drudge they currently have on but to suggest Key got Campbell live axed is tinfoilhat stuff.

                  • Stuart Munro


                    Henry was kept on for a long time with substantially worse ratings. We campaigned hard for honest journalism but rightwing trash have an aversion to truth and so Campbell was gone.

                    • james

                      Got anything to support your argument then?

                      Yeah – thought not.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Come on then – show us the ratings you lying POS.

                    • Stunned Mullet

                      🙄 my mistake for feeding the troll.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      You’re the troll Mullet – you come to a moderate left site where your inanity is unwelcome and try to browbeat people into swallowing your spurious reasoning, or more often to stop talking about the things that matter. I could show you video and sworn affidavits and you’d still disagree because your function here is to waste everybody’s time.

                      And of course to distract people from the chronic rightwing media bias that has the PM being grilled for financial details before she’s been in government a week.

                      That’s the story you scum are trying to hide – MSM bias trying to resurrect Bill English – they’d have more luck with Kenneth Branagh and lots and lots of electric eels.

                    • james

                      And then below Munro goes on an abuse bender – calling people lying POS and scum – despite not having a single piece of evidence to back up his claim.

                      Best not to debate with someone like that – there is no helping them.

                      Here is some reading for him / her, and Im sure they will be able to counter with some press about how Campbell was fired for being mean to Key (Tui).


                    • Stuart Munro

                      You started the abuse James by screeching bias.

                      Like most people on this site I have many objective reasons to be dissatisfied with the performance of Key and his accomplices.

                      The story is the contemporary treatment of Jacinda, and the contrast with the seemingly infinite number of free passes handed out to Key – who never seems to have answered a straight question in his life.

                      Can you address it meaningfully? I rather think you are too lazy to try.

                    • McFlock

                      Oh look, Mickesavage did a post about exactly that at the time.

                      In fact John Campbell has his own tag on the site.

                      To recap: Campbell Live retained more of the 6pm 3news audience than the TV1 competition retained of the 6pm onenews audience, but 3news has shit ratings. So they kept 3news and replaced CL with a show that was at least as “poorly rating”.

            • james

              From your comment:

              “Key even went so far as to get Campbell fired because he didn’t want to have to answer such questions.”

              From the policy

              “This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so.”

              • Molly

                James, it might do to refresh your knowledge of the background to the “policy ratings of Campbell Live” excuse before repeating the assertion.

                Public Address had a good post on it before the decision was made and I recall a number of good discussions on this site as well.

                • james

                  so do you have anything backing up the statement that “Key even went so far as to get Campbell fired because he didn’t want to have to answer such questions.” ?

                  No issues with people making that assertion without ANY facts to back it up?

                  • Molly

                    If I spent all my time asking everyone in the world who makes assertive statements to justify it before addressing you – you would never have the opportunity to learn from your constant repeating of memes.

                    The issue regarding John Key and Campbell Live, has more to do with the creation of cultures within media outlets rather than explicit instructions. I don’t usually bother to challenge those assertions because they come from a place of frustration and are a natural venting of that emotion. And black and white statements that suggest fact, seems to me to be overegging the omelette, so to speak.

                    Your statements appear to reflectfacts over emotion, when taken at face value. The simplicity of them, means that you have often taken all nuance and detail out of them. You miss a lot of context and pertinent information, and narrow the discussion.

                    Now will you read the link?

              • Stuart Munro

                Getting back to media bias in the treatment of Jacinda James – do you actually have anything to say or were you just venting your spleen?

        • cleangreen

          Thanks Stuart you answered to james for me as that is what pissed me off that never did Guyon Espiner looking angry and skewing around on his chair as he seemed to be in a really aggressive mode as his body language was absolutely terrible and intimidating actually.

          He should be fired pronto with his partner shill Suzie Fergsuson.

      • Ed1 7.2.2

        I wasn’t aware of a call for him to be fired – Espiner is capable of much better interviewing than he displayed this morning; with good management I am sure he can improve. Yes I object to interviews where I cannot understand anything due to an interviewer competing for microphone time so much that 2 people are always talking. I also object also to people being interviewed talking irrelevancies and talking for so long that interviewers have to break in, but htat was not evident this morning. Other interview subjects are irrelevant.

    • thevoiceofreason 7.3

      Oh come on – she’s a big girl, she can take it. I on the other hand admired her composure under fire. She’s going to be in the gun on a consistent basis and I think her refreshing honesty and transparency is great for the public, but it does give the journo’s an angle to attack her with.

      Don’t be so defensive over the new government – everything I’ve seen to date shows they can handle themselves capably …

    • savenz 7.4

      Yep, good on them, new government needs to send a message, media bias is not acceptable here. The country is coming back to Kiwi’s who live here, not the 1% business roundtable and their lazy puppets, spouting propaganda daily for their masters.

    • odysseus 7.5

      Dunno what you are on about – I thought she handled it well, with aplomb as usual!

    • Whispering Kate 7.6

      I agree Cleangreen – my advice to Jacinda is to tell Guyon next time she is on RNZ about to be interviewed to “read my lips closely, button up and let me finish what I am saying”. If he persists then she needs to walk away from the interview and haul the Board up and tell them to get Guyon under control. He was like a chipmunk on steroids – does he not know our to interview people. So utterly unprofessional but then most of our interviewers are – Susie Ferguson is just as bad.

    • Anne 7.7

      Sorry cleangreen but Guyon was doing his job. This his style of interviewing and he’s fairly consistent no matter who he is interviewing – an adversarial interviewer. Jacinda knew exactly what was coming and she was ready for it. They finished the interview in a state of mutual respect from my perspective.

      • cleangreen 7.7.1

        Sorry Anne it was very insensitive and disrepectful.

        If you like that very aggressive grilling of the PM, why didn’t we see Espiner do this to Key or English????

    • Philg 7.8

      I heard Guyon grilling Jacinda. I found it disrespectful and almost bullying in tone and intent. He needs a few plain words in his ear from his employer to do better quality journalism.

      • garibaldi 7.8.1

        Philg, admonishment from a National aligned employer is hardly likely. RNZ management needs routing.

        • Philg

          Garibaldi +1
          Fully agree. National Radio needs a major refurbishment, before it’s too far gone I. E. TVNZ

      • cleangreen 7.8.2

        Thanks philg,

        We sent a complaint directly to the minister of Broadcasting today thanks.

        Radio NZ need an overhaul as there are to many ‘national cling-ons’ in there now, after steven joyce had his grubby mits all over the network during his purge of real balanced journo’s who may be negative during the election.

    • weka 7.9

      How many times did you watch that? Because honestly, I just did the once and followed along closely and I could understand the questions being asked.

      However, the video I am watching ends is only 8m 50 secs, there is no 9 min point, the interview was wound up before then. The last few minutes are spent talking about the new policy costings. Is that the video you intended?

  7. eco maori 8

    Nationals Ideological theory on how our society should be controlled has dune a lot of damage to our society YOU see people the can not see humans there neo librarian reality only sees dollar signs and one can not run a society with this $$$$$$$$$$$ as your main focus fuck wits .On to it a new city with hope fully all the best designs of a new advanced society I think everything we need for servicing this city sewerage we could get all our nitrogen required for our farms from our urine we need to minimize
    Our waste in all sectors of this new city brilliant idear from our coalition goverment P.S
    I’m colour blind I thought my eyes were brown till my wife told me they were hazel green lol I can see colour but trying to distinguish the browns and reds purples and blues is a pain ,This is one reason why I stopped fishing the navigation light test fail i can distinguish green red and white but failed the test . This trait comes from my male Maori Te Puna line . Ka pai

  8. Carolyn_nth 9

    From Catriona MacLennan on Newsroom: 12 ways the government can help beneficiaries:

    Set benefits at liveable levels.

    Begin an immediate review of all Ministry of Social Development cases before the courts …

    Write off debts owed by beneficiaries to Work and Income.

    Close the tip line people can call to dob in beneficiaries.

    Abolish Benefits Review Committees and set up an independent body to deal with complaints about decisions by MSD.

    Delete from the law the current sanctions of between $22 and $28 a week levied against parents who cannot name the other parent in law.

    Change utterly the culture of the Ministry of Social Development so that every staff member is required to be certain that all beneficiaries are provided with all of the financial support to which they are legally entitled.

    Reinstate into law the original purposes of the Social Security Act 1938 so that the object of social security is, once again, the simple aim of helping those in need.

    Increase the amount beneficiaries can earn before their benefits are abated.

    Stop prosecuting mothers for so-called benefit fraud.

    Actually, I count 10 ways – misleading headline?

    But the 10 all look good to me – more details for most of the 10 at the link.

    • weka 9.1

      Post going up soon.

    • The Chairman 9.2

      Here’s another that requires to be added.

      Don’t treat borrowed money as income.

      • eco Maori/kiwi 9.2.1

        Yes that’s a joke maybe the neo librals wanted to tax that borrowed money.
        Here’s a different angle if the judge rule’s against this poor lady what are the implication’s for businesses are we going to class all the money they/we borrow as income and tax it just thought you good people on this site help me a lot many thanks Ka pai

        • The Chairman

          Businesses relying on hire purchase sales would be negatively impacted if borrowed money was considered income by WINZ.

    • tracey 9.3

      Have a govt that actually wants to help beneficiaries should be number 1

  9. Carolyn_nth 10

    goodness! “Deborah Hill Cone: Confessions of a reformed right-winger”

    Maybe there is even some hope for the Hosk? HDPA… etc?

    • weka 10.1

      Goodness is right. Way more interesting than I thought it was going to be, and quite moving. I think that she’s gone through that transition as a woman is relevant too.

    • Ad 10.2

      Oh FFS she holds out for a decade, and then does a full Hail Mary Come To Jesus a week after Labour comes to power.

      She is pathetic mouthpiece for the fickle interests of the NZHerald editors.

      • Nick 10.2.1

        @Ad yes she is total 100% drivel, like those other idiots, hosking, etc. That they write and broadcast on national media outlets is just sad.

    • McFlock 11.1


      • The Chairman 11.1.1

        Going off a number of the comments (posted below the article) and lack of willing participation, it seems they (the council) are failing to bring the vast majority of the public on board.

        Which should be some food for thought for Labour when constructing their housing WOF.

        • McFlock

          Going off the stuff comments section, we’re a nation of fucking morons – but I don’t think that’s a true reflection of our country, do you?

          The guy failed his rental wof because of a $5 lightbulb and $20 window stay. This is not an unreasonable expense. But no, he’d rather organise a photoshoot for the media.

          Far be it for me to suggest that some landlord fuckwits are looking to spike the idea by finding the most minor infractions, just so their membership can continue renting out mouldering, unmaintained slums.

          • The Chairman

            The comments section overall didn’t reflect the nation to be moronic.

            The photo-shoot was clearly to further highlight the quality of the home.

            The fact it failed over two small matters was bringing the warrant checks into question. As in, are they over the top and go to far?

            Is this really the type of high quality home we want to prevent from being rented?

            Would we rather someone stayed in a car than this home with its two minor flaws?

            Has the pendulum now swung too far in the other direction?

            • McFlock

              I’m happy for someone to pay a lower rent if their landlord can’t even be bothered fixing a light and fitting a window latch.

              If the landlord isn’t able to rent out an unWoFfed flat for $xxx/week, all for want of less than a hundred bucks of maintenance, the house will be on the market soon, anyway.

              • The Chairman

                One would expect tenants to change their own lightbulbs

                Paying less rent won’t be a substitute for not having a warrant. As far as I’m aware, going forward, homes will be required to be warranted to be tenanted.

                In this case, the cost of repair is minimal, but all small costs eventually add up and are likely to be passed on to tenants.

                • Andre

                  What percentage of landlords charge “enough to keep me happy” and are below market rate, and will therefore be able to raise rents whenever they have increased costs? What proportion of landlords charge the most they think the market will bear and if they try to increase rent will have an untenanted house?

                  • The Chairman

                    When was the last time you went to a rental open home in a high demand area?

                    People often offer more than the asking price just to secure the listing.

                    Hence, landords adding on a few more costs is not a problem for some.

                • McFlock

                  A landlord might expect that, but fuck that shit.

                  Nope. You’ll need more than lightbulbs and neglected children in burning tree forts to paint the landlords as victims, here.

                • weka

                  “One would expect tenants to change their own lightbulbs”

                  I’m guessing it’s either not the lightbulb (i.e. the fitting is broken), or it is the lightbulb but it’s not the inspector’s job to figure out which. The onus is on the landlord.

            • marty mars

              Chair can you answer you own questions?

            • weka

              That window stay is most likely to stop young children climbing out and falling off the roof. That’s not minor. I have zero problem with his flash new house failing, he’s an arse.

              • tracey

                An arse with a link to the Property Investors “Union”

              • The Chairman

                @ weka

                Alternatively, the window (without a stay) could be used (if need be) as an exit in the event of a fire.

                Moreover, an observant parent would ensure their child didn’t climb out of windows.

                And it’s not only windows children like to climb and occasionally fall from. Are warrants going to also cover the garden tree and fort-house?

                • weka

                  By all means take the position that we don’t need regulated safety structures for kids. Start with fencing off swimming pools. See how you get on.

                  • The Chairman

                    It wasn’t my actual positioning. It’s more to do with where we draw the line. Care to comment on that?

                    • weka

                      I trust the people that are developing the WOF not to put stupid or useless requirements in, but if they did I would expect people other than idiot and self-interested landlords to be the ones objecting. The two issues raised (window stays and outside lights) are known safety issues and utterly reasonable to include in a WOF, I don’t even know why we are arguing about this.

                • greywarshark

                  So po-faced. As if busy parents don’t have enough things to cope with these days, being expected to know everything their kids are doing! We sure get the fault-finding authoritarian types on this blog.

                  Moreover, an observant parent would ensure their child didn’t climb out of windows.

                  • The Chairman

                    My child has never climbed out a window.

                    And while being an observant parent helped, so to did the installing of what and not to do.

                    How many windows have your kids climbed and fallen out?

            • tracey

              If there is a checklist why was it so hard for this landlord to comply? No huge skill needed just the ability to read a checklist.

              If a car fails it fails. Doesnt matter what the cost of the part is.

              • The Chairman

                The question is, if a house like this can fail, does the checklist go too far?

                • weka

                  Only if you think child safety and women’s safety shouldn’t be supported by society.

                  • The Chairman

                    How deep a role should the state play in our home safety?

                    What of the role of parents when it comes to child safety?

                    And how did women safety come into this?

                    • McFlock

                      Parents are the beginning provider of child safety. Not the only provider.

                      As for womens’ safety – you think an outside light is just decoration?

                    • The Chairman

                      @ McFlock

                      Do you think an outside light is only for women safety?

                      Men can fail to see and slip too.

                      Do you expect a landlord to come running to change a lightbulb every time one blows? Do we really want to waste time and effort chasing landlords up on this?

                      Fair enough if more is required to be done, but changing a lightbulb, really?

                    • McFlock

                      okay, a couple of points:

                      firstly, no, I don’t expect the landlord to come running if a lighbulb blows (although the landlord would be wise to inspect more regularly if the tenant cannot manage their own lightbulb). I do expect that if a landlord wants their place to be certified as up to a particular standard, then the landlord should demonstrate that the place is up to standard – including putting in a light bulb.

                      Secondly, if you think that safety from an outside light is just because of slips and falls, that’s you showing a wee bit of privilege right there.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  I suspect that, considering the website, the majority answer will something along the lines of “doesn’t go far enough”

                • Andre

                  How is this different to fronting up for a warrant for your car and failing for a blown bulb and insecure spare tyre? You go away and sort the (very minor) problems, bring it back for recheck, job done.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    I’d have thought that the WOF for a car was for safety reasons and had been set up and checked and gone over and debated for many years (decades?) whereas this is the first WOF (might be wrong) for a house and so the people (who are they and what are their qualifications) coming up with the checklist might be going a bit overboard

                    Or not

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, nah. The two requirements the property failed on seem pretty reasonable and simple to me. Not to mention cheap – the combined hourly fees of the landlord, photographer and reporter probably amounted to more than the total cost of fixing the light and screwing in the stay.

                      He might have had a point if it was an awesome house that failed because, say, the roof was over ten years old and the cladding he used was rated for another ten years. Something already within reasonable spec but highly expensive to make meet the wof.

                      As it is, the landlord would rather moan than pop down to mitre10.

                  • The Chairman

                    As Puckish Rogue stated, it’s about whether or not we’ve got the balance right with these new rental WOFs.

                    Are lightbulbs, for example, really something we should all be concerned about. Do warrants really have to cover them? Clearly, they are not as important as having working lights on a car.

                    • Andre

                      Requiring a minimum functioning standard of lighting doesn’t seem onerous to me. I had a girlfriend once step out the back door, miss the step because the bulb was blown, then spend the next few weeks hobbling around with a twisted ankle.

                      Requiring window stays for windows with the sill more than 2m above ground also doesn’t seem onerous. They’re really quick and simple to fit.

                      I’ve just been over the checklist McFlock linked and my house (built in 1989) would need about $200 of various bits and half a day to install them. That just doesn’t look like a burden to me.

                  • The Chairman

                    “I had a girlfriend once step out the back door, miss the step because the bulb was blown, then spend the next few weeks hobbling around with a twisted ankle”

                    Shouldn’t changing the blown bulb fall on the tenant? Is this something we really want to chase landlords for?

                    It’s a bit excessive for the state don’t you think?

                    While they may not be onerous, the question is, do they go too far trying to capture all these little things?

                    • Andre

                      If it was up to me, I’d require all lighting in a rental to be LED. Which should last effectively forever. And I’d have no problem with requiring the landlord to be responsible for them.

                  • The Chairman

                    I know a landlord that did just that. The new tenants had a house warming and half of them were taken.

                    I could just imagine what he would say to your proposal.

                    • McFlock

                      “Lucky I had them on the list of chattels, that’s what the bond is for”?

                    • cleangreen

                      Sorry Andre,

                      I also am a certified electrician (my first career) for over 50 yrs and LED light bulbs do not “effectively last forever” .

                      They have a longer life, but do not last forever, and we have replaced many during our servicing of properties as they do burn out.

                      Expecially if the power source is surging or interupted often, such as in rural regions with less line filters along the grid to smooth the power factor (PF).

    • Antoine 11.2

      Very hard to know with N=2

    • marty mars 11.3

      No. And I think you know that is no, you know, no?

    • Treetop 11.4

      I know of a council complex in Wellington where the council has been negligent for the last 2 years. I do not have the person’s permission to go to the media.

      The mayor needs to do a warrant on council housing.

  10. Ad 12

    Queensland State government election is one to watch:

    One Nation is tracking at 18% and may hold the balance of power.

    November 25th election date we will hear if the European xenophobia disease is spreading very close to New Zealand.

  11. joe90 13

    Oh boy, the replies.

    “I am sorry for all the times I stabbed men, just a little, in my previous workplace. After years of counseling, I stopped stabbing men.”— Kate Harding (@KateHarding) October 28, 2017


  12. The Chairman 14

    Disappointing Labour are happy with allowing our lowest paid workers to subsidise businesses (over the next 3 years or so) that can’t afford to pay a minimum wage of $20.00 an hour.

    Around half of the children living in poverty come from working families.

    • greywarshark 14.1

      The Chairman
      People like you are the reason that Labour hasn’t been able to get enough votes to get in and make changes for so long.

      The Labour/3 coalition can’t just quickly place higher costs on business without some affect beyond the short term benefit of such an action. Business needs to reset its systems so they can allow for this cost they haven’t budgeted for.

      Countries can magic money up with QE etc. businesses can’t. NZ doesn’t want businesses closing down, giving up or going AWOL.

      Let’s be grateful for small mercies instead of putting the boot in like toddlers who’ve missed out cake at the party. There are different compensations, so just enjoy for at least 100 days and ask a few questions to inform yourself about reality and when it’s reasonable to ask to shift it sideways to allow better things to flow to the srugglers.

      • The Chairman 14.1.1

        “The Labour/3 coalition can’t just quickly place higher costs on business without some affect beyond the short term benefit of such an action. Business needs to reset its systems so they can allow for this cost they haven’t budgeted for.”

        If Labour want’s to subsidise these non-viable businesses (giving them time to transition) why not do it from the consolidated fund, opposed to making our lowest paid workers carry the burden?

        This is meant to be the Labour Party, you know, the one that is meant to stand up for the working class.

        While you seem happy to lower the bar and make excuses, ponder this:

        The current living wage is $20.20 an hour. And increases annually.

        With NZ First and Labour’s policy not hitting $20.00 by 2021, wages are clearly still going to be lagging behind.

        Around half of the children in poverty come from working families.

        Almost 700,000 workers currently earn less than the Living Wage.

        We currently have full-time workers relying on welfare support, state subsidies and charity.

        People are struggling now. Some are even killing themselves.

        And you have the cheek to blame me for trying to raise the bar? Get real.

        • greywarshark

          The Chairman
          Get real, you. Anybody can go round quoting the things you are. Do you think you are the only person who knows this stuff and feels deeply unhappy about it, some suicidal?

          You are criticising a government that only got in by the skin of their teeth. It is going to be hard for them to pull away from the old ‘let’s manage NZ better’ and really get some vitality into making NZ a better place for small business and workers.

          That’s the sort of thing you should be thinking and trying to think of ways to advance that.

          In the meantime you seem to want a prize for reciting stuff that we already know too well and want a pat on the head for it. You must be suffering from the NSA syndrome, only able to think what has been prescribed, instead of – Think wider, think practical, think and problem-solve, come up with or support new ideas yourself instead of dreams that can’t work in our political system, at this time.

          • The Chairman

            “Do you think you are the only person who knows this stuff and feels deeply unhappy about it…”

            No. But I’m one of the few expressing it here.

            Lowering the bar and making excuses won’t lead us closer to attaining the improvements required. Therefore, you should be joining me, not sitting here making further excuses.

            Increasing wages to the living wage will increase consumer demand, thus business returns, which will benefit businesses and workers in turn.

            Win-win policy as such is the sort of thinking that will advance us. Hence, we should be doing it now.

            In the meantime, I did offer Labour a practical alternative solution (funding it through the consolidated fund, possibly via tax cuts) opposed to forcing our most lowest paid to continue carrying the burden.

          • The Chairman

            Here’s a little more for you to ponder.

            The current minimum wage is $15.75 and was expected to increase to $16.25 next year under National.

            Which means Labour are offering workers 25 cents more. Yet they’re looking at introducing a 10 cents a liter regional fuel tax. Which National had no plans to introduce.

            So after filling up the car and despite their pay increase, under Labour, workers will be worse off.

            • Andre

              Gee, how much petrol would someone have to burn through every day to be worse off after a $0.25/hr pay raise and a 10c per litre petrol price increase?

              • The Chairman

                Anything above a 100 liters.

                However, it would be far less as I forgot to add, thus take into account, National’s tax cut.

                And when all is taken into account, it doesn’t paint Labour’s first effort ($16.50) in a very good light.

                • Andre

                  ‘rithmetic ain’t yer strong point, is it?

                  Let’s say 8 hours a day paid, so that’s $2.00 extra gross. Less 17.5% income tax so $1.65 in the hand (ignoring ACC levy). Assume the bastards will stick GST on top of the regional levy, so $1.65 / 0.115 = 14.3 litres. That’s around 70km each way, so there’s a few around Auckland do that, but not many.

                  But anyone travelling that distance for a minimum wage job already has a very strong incentive to find a closer job or a cheaper way to travel. Because they’re paying so much of their pay for petrol to begin with.

  13. Ad 15

    So naturally, Puigdemont has rejected his discharge as Provincial leader of Catalan, and simply asks for “patience, endurance, and perspective” in order to move ahead with his independence plan. Not a sign that he has been removed from power.

    He is now living in two worlds: his own, and that of the Spanish government.
    In his world, chaotic referendums are passed off as binding and having credible results.

    In his world, rules are made and immediately broken again: Catalonia’s declaration of independence, for example, was originally supposed to come 48 hours after the announcement of the referendum’s result, but that stretched to almost a month. He declared independence two weeks ago, and then suspended it for reasons of simple internal political expedience.

    In his world, parliamentary votes are celebrated as lawful when they are not – as Friday’s on Catalan’s independence was not. The vote should not have taken place because according to the law of Spain, their parliament has no authority to decide on the sovereignty of Catalonia. The opposition left the room in protest and did not participate in the vote. Of the representatives who remained, 10 voted against the resolution on constituting “a Catalan republic as an independent and sovereign state”. Seventy representatives voted in favour, and the resolution was passed. Two lawmakers abstained.

    Now there will be a new election set for Catalonia for December 21.
    Puigdemont has shown that he is not the leader who can get them there.

    And just in case anyone wonders precisely how much autonomy Catalonia – and other provinces – already get from the central Spanish government, here’s the full table, from Police to education:


    • greywarshark 15.1

      Strong weeds can grow up between cracks in the pavement. It’s important to distinguish between the good ground cover and the rampant, dominant.

  14. Raj Patel on How to Break Away from Capitalism

    Together with Binghamton University professor Jason W. Moore, he has written The History of the World in Seven Cheap Things (University of California Press, 2017), which aims to put it all together for us. The seven “things” of the title aren’t physical objects as much as they are a hidden social, ecological and economic infrastructure: nature, money, work, care, food, energy, and lives. The point being that cheapness is a process of responding to economic crises by devaluing each of those forces so that capitalism can continue to concentrate wealth in the hands of the already-wealthy. In that sense, “cheap nature” refers to the way in which land and its resources are systematically given away to businesses for exploitation, “cheap work” refers to slavery and other anti-worker tactics that keep wages low, and so on.

    Capitalism values cheapness above all else. And through this lens, Patel and Moore explore the evolution of capitalism from its roots in the late medieval period with the collapse of feudalism in Western Europe caused by climate change and the Black Death to—now.

    Reminds me of how Bill English thought that our major advantage was low wages.

    It also tells us why the government keeps selling off our assets cheaply.

  15. greywarshark 17

    Business doesn’t know whether to gather and tell ghost, horror stories, or just cautionary tales now the good old stable, cost plus or market easy-peasy system at the top and cut off the bottom Party has gone.


  16. Eco maori 18

    To Jim on the Rock that Bob Dillon song was awesome Ka pai

  17. greywarshark 19

    Media has a big job in Auckland Councils was the news. I thought that amalgamating councils was going to result in volume savings?? But apparently not they have over 200 at work on their various duties and it is hoped cuts will trim $15m off $45m starting soon.

    With that in mind I have been looking at NZ Post for information on cost of international parcels and closing times for Christmas. I have got the dates, but the cost and how it is apportioned is not easily accessed. How to pack your parcel, the different avenues, International Air, International Courier, International Express Courier and the delivery times. But I can’t see the prices for parcels, though looking at the Documents charge, it will make anyone gag.

    Under changes to our rates and services from 1/7/2017 for international
    they tell me that international air under 2kg for all zones increased by 4% (average)
    International expres courier to Zone e rest of world, increased by 10%
    There you have it – all explained.

    I look for international parcel price information and get a rate finder that will work out the price for me. But I do want to have information of the rates per size as a chart just for information. I look up International Air and it only has the letter rates. I look up International Courier, and it seems that NZPost want users to choose this one and give information here.

    But I look up International Air and find there is 10% discount if parcel posted before 12/11 with a special rate name. But still am not given the base price, thought I am advised it is charged in 10g increments when under 2 kg and under $250. The minimum charge is for 200g.

    So under my search for ‘NZ Post International Parcel price’ I find nine headings and four adverts. Why so many?

    How much are these information disseminating clots paid I wonder?

    • greywarshark 19.1

      NZ Post is too tired to keep updating information on line apparently so tries not to list price details.

      However this backpacker company has info listed as I wanted it. I presume it is correct and timely. Good on them and thumbs down to NZ Post – Your service being run into the ground as a ‘dog’ on its way out company since 1984.

      Try –

  18. McFlock 20

    Alledgedly buggy-barclay reinvestigation – no charges to be laid. He again refused to cooperate with police.

    • greywarshark 20.1

      They should chase him in their car. That would fix him for good.

    • Pete 20.2

      The man-child wasn’t in a buggy! I suppose it could be said there were allegations of bugging.

      It is accepted there were recordings. I’m sure I got that from the Bill English police tapes. Whether they were made deliberately and with intent might be the point.

      The dust has cleared and the adage “innocent until proven guilty”comes to mind.

      From what we know, for me, including Barclay’s repeated silence, it is “guilty until proven to be innocent.”

      And for those Barclay/English/National lovers who think that’s unfair, how about a two word response – Bradley Ambrose.

    • Former National Party MP Todd Barclay will not be prosecuted by police after he once again refused to speak to them.

      So, there’s a new policy of “We’re screwed unless the alleged perp comes out with “It’s a fair cop guv.”

      To explain this new policy, a spokescop notes the need for evidence, and that:

      “Speculation, hearsay and third party information does not in itself constitute such evidence.”

      How about a witness statement from someone, say a Minister of Finance in the New Zealand government for example, who’d heard direct from the alleged perp that he’d made the alleged recordings? That would constitute such evidence. Or how about if they went full gonzo and adopted real out-there investigative techniques like getting a search warrant and seeing if the alleged perp still had the recordings and the device in his possession? I guess stuff like that’s only on the TV shows…

      • McFlock 20.3.1

        Yeah, I thought hearsay didn’t include “he explicitly said to me he done it”, but whatevs…

      • Treetop 20.3.2

        What about English misleading parliament?

      • Cinny 20.3.3

        Disgusting behaviour by any MP (now ex MP) to refuse to be interviewed by the police, instead running away overseas. Nothing to hide Todd? Yeah right.

        Now the election is over I’m determined to get to the bottom of this, have already been rather well informed, only so many questions a person can answer however.

      • Anne 20.3.4

        Between 1989 and 1992, a former Public Service boss of mine who happened to be a former American Marine officer (I’ll leave you to ponder that one) was trying to gather evidence of “treasonous” (yes, that is the word he used) conduct on my part. Part of that evidence gathering involved the occasional bugging of my home telephone.

        I reported the behaviour to my Wellington bosses and other senior personnel within the establishment. An investigation occurred but the findings were with-held from me. That of course ensured I couldn’t seek recompense from the ministries (Transport and Defence) concerned. They had initially been the recipients of false information about me, but that did not excuse them from taking the actions they did.

        I repeat the story because former Clutha electorate secretary, Glynis Dickson was never going to see justice. As plenty of women in the Public Service and elsewhere can testify… the males who are invariably in more senior positions are always believed over a mere subordinate female. Apart from that there is the question of reputations to be considered, and they always take precedence over matters of justice or what is right.

        • Treetop

          Self serving burecrates.

        • Psycho Milt

          …Public Service boss of mine who happened to be a former American Marine officer … was trying to gather evidence of “treasonous” … conduct…

          All these highly-paid people, who’ve supposedly been through the most rigorous recruitment processes to ensure they’re the very best we can obtain for the money, and it’s amazing how many of them are actually loons or dim bulbs when you have to work for them…

          • Anne

            … it’s amazing how many of them are actually loons or dim bulbs when you have to work for them….

            My God, can I attest to that!

            Don’t forget where we stood with the US govt. during the 80s and 90s. NZ was being ‘punished’ for daring to legislate to be a “nuclear free” country. The Yanks would have been keen to know where the NZ Defence Force stood on the matter and I was a civilian working on a Defence Force base. Some people knew of my former ties to the Labour Party – renewed since that episode in my life.

            • Andre

              “… it’s amazing how many of them are actually loons or dim bulbs when you have to work for them….”

              Or outright frauds.

              • Anne

                Dead right Andre. It was a direct result of the structural changes following the introduction of the neo-liberal/market forces economy. Recruitment was no longer on the basis of merit and proven managerial skills, but rather on ideological outcomes and rabid commercialism by people who more often than not had no understanding of the skill sets required for the departments/agencies they were running.

  19. silvertuatara 21

    So will this be the end of the Phil Barclay fiasco?

    As reported in the NZ Herald’s website article released 30 Oct, 2017 12:36pm and titled
    “Todd Barclay refuses to speak to police again”, the article is quoted below and can be found at http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11938491 ;

    “Former National MP Todd Barclay will not face any charges after again refusing to speak to detectives probing his secret taping of a staff member.

    Police have announced today the results of a re-investigation that had commenced into allegations that the private communications of an individual were intercepted by Barclay, who was then MP for Clutha-Southland.

    As a result of the re-investigation Barclay would not face charges, police said.

    Barclay had again declined to be interviewed by police, as was his legal right.”

    I am curious to know if the reinvestigation and above noted outcome had been run by the newly appointed Minister of Police Stewart Nash as part of the no surprises policy, or had been concluded prior to PM Jacinda Ardern having appointed Stewart Nash, and so had been reported to Paula Bennett, National Party’s exiting Minister of Police.

    I am also looking forward to seeing if Winston Peters is asked his opinion on the matter and if he responds, what his take on the finality of the situation is.

    • Treetop 21.1

      I do not think that the public will ever hear from Dickson re Barclay or English.

      Whose life has been affected by the Barclay tapes?

      Not English.

      Ambrose got Key in the end over the teapot tape. The timing over the Barclay damage control, the Key Ambrose hearing and the English police interview says it all.

      • silvertuatara 21.1.1

        You ask whose life has been affected by the Barclay tapes and my answer is that your question remains to be seen.

        The manner that the saga has been handled has set a precedent for which any other person whom so deems to conduct the same alleged illegal recordings of third parties which breach privacy regulations, now has the bar set at refusing to talk to the police after ensuring that the recording device and evidence has been hidden and or destroyed.

        If the police pursue the person further the person can now put forward as a legal defense the Barclay reasoning and all things being equal have a high probability of getting off.

        And while Dickson may not go public, the suffering and harm caused to her, and others that supported her by all accounts was well over the top and heavy handed.

  20. Siobhan 22

    “For instance I believe that you are a simple minded misogynist troll who has such a small dick that you have to masturbate using a pair of cotton buds…..”

    hmmm, kinda funny, but seriously not cool.
    Maybe this sort of moderation could be one of those factors making women (and men who don’t dig Dick references) less likely to engage in conversations on this site.
    In fact the equivalent sentence directed at women and this site would have lit up with complaints.

    Would it be too much to ask that we all restrain ourselves with the personal and abusive potty mouth??

    Who’s in trouble in the USA?

    now…back to my cocoa..

  21. Ad 23

    You get a little glimpse of how the Zero Carbon Act is going to work from James Shaw in his speech to the CTU:


  22. Treetop 24

    I know of a council complex in Wellington where the council has been negligent for the last 2 years. I do not have the person’s permission to go to the media.

    The mayor needs to do a warrant on council housing.

  23. Molly 25

    Broadcaster Barry Soper’s son fell down Wellington bank, police say”

    Herald article has been updated to reflect the result of the police investigation, but also seems to have been edited to remove Soper’s rant.

    Can’t recall the original article verbatim, but it quoted a Soper that was scathing of the state of NZ, than the present article does.

    There should be a follow-up article, rather than a edited version.

  24. Treetop 26

    Self serving burecrates. Reply to Anne.

  25. Angel Fish 27

    16. Bring the economy to a halt and compel the population to vote National into power once more…

    Before anyone jumps on my throat, I voted for labour.
    I hate National for many reasons which I won’t go into here.

    But Labour is currently being very frivolous with tax funds.
    They need to show that while they will spend money on public good that
    they are respectful of the tax payer.

    Currently with it’s plans to give free education to all first year students and to increase the welfare and to loosen the conditions, it stands to do the opposite!

    First with free tuition, this should ONLY be given to people with dire economical circumstances. There is no sense in giving a free tuition to everyone, when many can afford to take on that $5000-$7000 dollar annual fee(especially as a loan).

    Secondly with welfare along side increase to minimum wage doesn’t make sense.
    It has to be one or the other, or much more conservative increases to both.
    Labour got lucky this election, they shouldn’t feel so cocky and risk losing the next election by appearing to be frivolous.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  26. Treetop 28

    I do not think that the public will ever hear from Dickson re Barclay or English.

    Whose life has been affected by the Barclay tapes?

    Not English.

    Ambrose got Key in the end over the teapot tape. The timing over the Barclay damage control, the date of the Key Ambrose hearing and the English police interview says it all.

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