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Open Mike 31/08/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 31st, 2018 - 96 comments
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96 comments on “Open Mike 31/08/2018 ”

  1. Ed 1

    The dairy industry is out of control and needs to be managed a lot better.

    Photos reveal unacceptable conditions for calving.

    SAFE said the photos revealed more cruel treatment of cattle over winter, following on from scenes of cattle standing in mud on a large feedlot in mid-Canterbury last week.
    SAFE head of campaigns Marianne Macdonald said forcing cows to give birth onto fields of mud puts both mother and calf at risk.
    “There is risk of infection because they are not just in mud, unfortunately their own excrement,” Ms Macdonald said.
    It was a totally unacceptable way to treat animals, she said.
    “Those vulnerable little calves are at risk of hypothermia in the cold, wet conditions.”
    Calving in mud was not unique to Southland as it happened in most dairying areas, Ms Macdonald said.
    “It seems to come as a surprise to some farmers that these conditions keep happening but we know that weather happens.”

    The cows and calves needed to be protected from appalling conditions, she said


    Damien O’Connor is not up to the job of dealing with rogue famrers.
    As Rachel Stewart says…

    Just so y’all know how Labour’s Ag minister thinks. Just like National’s Ag minister. Peas in a very thick pod.


    If anyone truly believes we can keep the same number of cows, cut emissions, and increase profits they’re mad. As in insane. Our Ag minister is insane.


  2. Ed 2

    Rachel Stewart speaks truth to power.

    Shane Jones is the perfect example of a politician who fully understands that corporates run the world, and he wants to take the power back. Not many, if any, pollies like that around. Sadly.

    Mr Jones told Morning Report that the following about Australian banks.

    “Their profits over the last 10 years have grown by 75 percent. I do believe with that level of profit they have an obligation to maintain an extensive level of service.”

    The minister said he planned to speak to Reserve Bank Governor Adrian Orr to “establish the facts” about the requirements of banking licences and will then consider policy options.


    ‘The Regional Economic Development Minister says the banks are putting profits ahead of their responsibility to rural areas, as unions raise concerns over branch closures.
    The banking sector is certainly not the first group to attract the ire of Shane Jones – he’s previously taken issue with supermarkets, power companies, Fonterra and Air New Zealand.’


    • dukeofurl 2.1

      We used to have regional community owned banks exactly for that purpose.
      TSB is the only one left.

      • cleangreen 2.1.1

        Yes we do agree with more community banks now for sure, -and we have switched to TSB 12 yrs ago and recommend TSB as HB/Gisborne based residents..

    • Bill 3.1

      To provide some context. That interview took place in April, during the aftermath of allegations there had been a chemical attack in Douma but before missiles had been launched into Syria..

      To my mind, Jeffrey Sachs (and that’s a link to his wiki page for those interested) just goes to show that some good people do manage to survive in fairly toxic environments.

      For those who either don’t like Dore’s style of presentation, or who (understandably) won’t watch 18 min vids, here’s a basic transcript of what Sachs said.

      …I think we need to step back, and not put this in partisan terms. This is a US mistake that started seven years ago, and I remember the day on your show when President Obama said that Asad must go.

      And I looked at you and Joe and I said “Huh? How’s he going to do do that? Where’s the policy for that?”

      And we know they sent in the CIA to overthrow Assad – the CIA and Saudi Arabia, together in covert operations tried to overthrow Assad. It was a disaster. Eventually it brought in both ISIS as a splinter group to the Jihadists that went in [and] it also brought in Russia.

      So we have been digging deeper and deeper. What we should do now, is get out, and not continue to throw missiles, and not have a confrontation with Russia.

      Seven years has been a disaster, beginning under Obama and continuing under Trump. This is what I’d call the permanent state. This is the CIA, this is the Pentagon wanting to [missing audio] no way to do that. So we have made a proxy war in Syria. It has killed 500 000 people, displaced 10 million – and I’ll say “predictably so” because I predicted seven years ago that there was no way to do this and it would make for complete chaos.

      So what I would plea to President Trump is “Get out” Like his instinct told him by the way – that was his instinct. But then all the establishment, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Pentagon…everyone said “No, no – that’s irresponsible.” But his instinct is right. Get out. We’ve done enough damage in seven years and now we really risk a confrontation with Russia that is extraordinarily dangerous – reckless.

      [Interview with an admiral “chemicals chemicals, repercussions, hold to account etc]

      I don’t think it’s attractive, but I think we have to understand how this happened. This happened because of us. These 600 000 are not just incidental. We started a war to overthrow a regime. It was covert. It was Timber Sycamore. People can look it up – the CIA operation, together with Saudi Arabia. It’s still shrouded in secrecy, which is part of the problem in our country. A major war effort, shrouded in secrecy, never debated by Congress, never explained to the american people, signed by President Obama. Never explained. And this created chaos. And so, just throwing more missiles in right now, is not a response.

      We need, not to walk away, to go to the UN Security Council, as the Admiral says, to agree with Russia on a strategy for ending the fight. But ending the fight means that we stop trying to overthrow a government; that we stop trying to support rebels who are committed to overthrowing a government – that is where this war continues. Because we, to this day, back rebels who are trying to overthrow a government, contrary to international law; contrary to the UN charter; contrary to common sense; contrary to a practical path. We can’t do it, and it’s just creating ongoing crisis to the extent of facing an imminent confrontation with Russia

      • Jenny 3.1.1

        Jeffrey Sachs, can hardly be said to be speaking truth to power, appearing a little less unhinged, but in essence little different to Infowars Alex Jones. Both push the same pro-fascist, pro-genocide script.

        • Jenny

          The Geo-politics of Counter-revolution
          Michael Karadjis – August 23, 2018

          ….The “the entire world” – all the major imperialist and regional reactionary powers – has been against the revolution since its outbreak in March 2011. Their differences have been entirely tactical.

          The crushing of heroic Daraa involved an unwritten agreement between the Assad regime, Russia, the US and Israel. Four ‘heroes’ of today’s global ‘alt-right’ – Assad, Netanyahu, Trump and Putin – have emerged triumphant over the corpse of the Syrian revolution.

          To which I would add:

          Even global imperial wars between each other, are not feared as much by the rival global elites who run our world, as much as they fear popular revolt from below.*

          In 1917 in the war of intervention the Western Allies and the Entent powers both invaded Russia to overturn the results of the revolution.

          Even rival empires, England and Germany who were still fighting each other on the Western Front, took part in the war of intervention.

          In an echo of Assad, Churchill used gas weapons in an effort to exterminate the revolutionaries.

          The war of intervention lasted until 1921 and cost 1.2 million lives. The imperial powers, (though probably not realising it at the time), achieved their purpose of defeating the revolution.
           – the best of the popular revolutionaries of 1917 who fell in the war of intervention, were replaced by the murderous Stalinist bureaucracy that grew to fill the vacuum. Just as the murderous Isis was a product of the Assadist genocide against the popular opposition to the dictator.

          Martin Luther King explained this process:

          “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”
          Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. – April 16, 1963

          “If our white brothers dismiss as ‘rabble rousers’ and ‘outside agitators’ those of us who employ nonviolent direct action, and if they refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes will, out of frustration and despair, seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies — a development that would inevitably lead to a frightening racial nightmare,” 

          * Imperialist wars are fought between soldiers and working people on behalf of the rulers, they are not wars fought by soldiers and working people, against the rulers, and it is the civilians and soldiers who bear the burden of the suffering and death. In imperialist war between rival imperialist oppressors, it is hardly ever the elites who suffer, (even if they find themselves on the losing side.)

          Unlike a war between oppressors. The same cannot be said for a war against the oppressors.
          The Geo-politics of Counter-revoluion

      • Jenny 3.1.2

        Tea Partier Ron Paul’s Liberty Report.
        Eva Bartlett
        Vanessa Beeley

        And now the Jimmy Dore Show?

        Tea Partiers, RT propagandists, Conspiracy Theorists?

        Really Bill?

        Are these the sources of your information on Syria?

        Talk about an echo chamber.

        Rational Wiki:

        An echo chamber, also known as an ideological echo chamber[2] or the more longwinded closed ideology echo chamber,[3] is a group situation where information, ideas, and beliefs are uncritically bounced from insider to insider and amplified, while dissenting views are censored and/or ignored.

        Jimmy Dore
        Rational Wiki

        Dore has entertained numerous conspiracies relating to the Syrian Civil War.[note 1] According to Dore:

        “Everything you’re being told about Syria is a lie. Everything. Fucking everything. The White Helmets are fucking liars. It’s all a lie.”[21]

        Since he does not trust the mainstream media, Dore uses numerous unreliable sources of information about Syria. For example, he described RT contributor[22][23][24] and conspiracy theorist[25][note 2] Eva Bartlett as an “independent Canadian journalist”[5][26] even though she openly says she is biased in favor of the Syrian regime.[24] Dore says Bartlett is a “real journalist” who is “willing to tell the truth” and is “reporting facts” about Syria.[26][5][27] He has interviewed Bartlett on The Jimmy Dore Show twice.[27][28]

        Bartlett’s conspiratorial claims about Syria include that footage from the White HelmetsWikipedia’s W.svg (a volunteer search and rescue group) contains children who have been recycled in different reports,[29] and that the media manufactured a story about a hospital being bombed that she claims never happened.[30] Bartlett also claims that the “corporate media”,[31] United Nations,[32] and human rights groups such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Médecins Sans FrontièresWikipedia’s W.svg[33][34][35][36][5] are all conveniently lying about what is happening in Syria. Bartlett’s claims have been widely discredited and debunked.[24][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47]

        Bartlett and Dore have helped a Russia-backed disinformation campaign targeting the White Helmets[48] that positions them as a terrorist organisation.[49][50]

        Dore: The White Helmets aren’t what they appear to be either. I know they got an Academy Award but there’s lots of reporting that the White Helmets are on the side of the terrorists trying to overthrow Assad, that they’re not neutral actors. There’s lots of reporting that says that about the White Helmets. Eva Bartlett from Canada, who we’ve showed on this show, she went to Syria. She had the same reporting about the White Helmets, that they’re in collusion with the jihadist rebels meaning ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra, Saudi Arabia and Qatar.[51][note 3]

        Bartlett is not the only unreliable source Dore has cited. He has used fellow conspiracy theorist SyrianGirlPartisan as a source.[52] He has cited the conspiratorial, Russian propaganda outlet RT[53][54] (and has defended them as a reliable source[55]). He repeated the conspiracy theory that the war is actually about a pipeline.[56][57][58][5] His source for this claim was the conspiracy-pseudoscience website Ecowatch.[59][60]

        Dore believes that there have been multiple false flag attacks during the Syrian Civil War, including the Khan Shaykhun chemical attackWikipedia’s W.svg in April 2017.[8]

        It’s the Al Qaeda who did this. They did it before, they’re probably doing it again. It doesn’t make sense that Syria would do this.[61]
        This screams false flag.[62]

        They’re doing it again. They’re trying to do a false flag gas attack so the United States bombs, which we’re doing.[63]

        There was also gas attacks. So there was two big gas attacks. The first one Barack Obama threatened to bomb Syria. Remember, they stopped because there was an agreement between Russia, Syria and the United States to get rid of all of Assad’s chemical weapons. That was their agreement. John Kerry kind of got hoodwinked into that agreement. So they did that. They got rid of all his chemical weapons, even though it was a false flag. The second one, they did another false flag where they said “oh, it was Assad gassing his own people” which he wasn’t because he was winning the war. ISIS was just hanging on barely and their only hope was to draw the United States into the Syrian conflict so they did another false flag gas attack.[64]

        He believes the attacks have been proven to be false flags:

        Dore: By the way, the Syrian war is complete bullshit. Those gas attacks now have been completely debunked. I didn’t believe them the first time.
        Joe Rogan: So what happened during those gas attacks?
        Dore: So, that’s called a false flag. So what happens is they wanted the United States to come in on their side to bomb Assad, to overthrow him. And so what they would do is they would do a gas attack on their own people and then blame it on Assad and then…
        Rogan: This has been proven?
        Dore: Yes.
        Rogan: That they did it?
        Dore: Yes.[65]

        Unsurprisingly, Dore has been proven wrong. In October 2017, investigations from the UN Commission of Inquiry on Syria found that Syrian government forces were responsible for the April 2017 chemical attack.[66][67] After the UN’s investigation, Dore doubled down, blaming the CIA for “false flag attacks” in Syria:

        So you don’t think that the CIA is still doing this exact same stuff today? You don’t think that’s what they’re doing in Syria? Remember when they did those false flags in Syria? The chemical attacks, those were false flag attacks. Assad did not do those attacks.[68]

        In February 2018, Dore alleged that U.S. Secretary of Defense Jim MattisWikipedia’s W.svg admitted there was no evidence Assad used poison gas on his people, citing an article from Newsweek.[69]

        In 2013, Barack Obama wanted to bomb Syria because they said Assad gassed his own people […] and they were sure of it by the way. Again, and this is the last one too. And then there was another one, that’s when Trump bombed Syria. They said there was another gas attack by Assad. Neither of them was by Assad. […] And so now, this is from February 8th. Newsweek: “Mattis admits there was no evidence Assad used poison gas on his people”.[70]

        However, Mattis was not claiming there was no evidence that Assad was responsible for the Khan Shaykhun attack. Mattis was actually referring to recent allegations of Sarin use after the Khan Shaykhun attack.[71][72][73][74] Mattis’ actual view about the Khan Shaykhun attack is that “there is no doubt the Syrian regime is responsible for the decision to attack and for the attack itself.”[75]

        After the Douma chemical attackWikipedia’s W.svg in April 2018, Dore said it was a false flag attack and he is the “best journalist in the country” because MSNBC and CNN won’t say that it was a false flag:

        I’m already the best journalist in the country right now because turn on MSNBC and CNN and see if they’re telling you what’s really happening in Syria and that this is a false flag attack. Again, they won’t even mention the last one was. Do you think they’re gonna mention that frickin’ Mattis said there was no evidence of the last one?[76]

    • Dennis Frank 5.1

      Fascinating! I’ve always been very impressed by Derek Handley whenever he’s spoken on tv. I would’ve thought he’s ideal for the job. That groundswell of tech opponents seems a significant consensus though, so their views will need careful consideration.

      Duncan Grieve’s report covers the implications well and I agree it all hinges on the job description, and how accurately that depicts the liaison and coordination functions required to interface our vitally-important emerging tech industry with government.

      • OnceWasTim 5.1.1

        Agree with you (both paragraphs).
        I’m interested in Lprent’s take because he’s been in the industry for quite some time and has seen the good and the bad. He appears to be motivated by creation of coding that is at it’s most efficient (probably to the point of obsession – not just stuff that works), and he seems to be as intolerant of some of the muppetry we’ve seen ( I could start a rave on government IT projects for example)
        I might be a little cynical (I know), but over 40 plus years, I’ve also seen the bullshit artists, the promotion of various processes and schemes – often re-inventions of past practices with new names:
        Project Management Schema
        Bizzniss Management ‘best practices’ earning their ticket clipping creators vast sums, self-improvement books and best practice management schemes.
        (Kaizen, SDLC’s , Martin Marrieta’s and whoever else is now in vogue, etc., etc. and other wheel reinventions)
        I’m trying to keep an open mind. (It’s bloody hard when you walk down the streets of Wellington following some ‘IT professionals’ exercising their egos as well as their limbs discussing the projects they’re working on, knowing they’re trying to recreate a wheel). I’m also well-pleased to be out of it al.

        I’m Oh so very PASSIONATE about it don’tcha know. I’m passionate about being entrepreneurial going forwardl

        • Dennis Frank

          Operating in the traditional context of capitalism is understandable (when in Rome..) but it’s been obvious to me for that entire 40 year time that we need a better way forward. I’ve put stuff online about that before but for Aotearoa’s tech industry the key point is incentivising entrepreneurs in team contexts (self-interest limited by a collaborative common-interest context – stakeholder integral design).

          Corporates using teams the past 30 years have mostly just been sloganeering. Has to be authentic. Employee profit-sharing, but also risk-sharing via participation in management. Ricardo Semler made it work in the eighties and Mondragon much earlier, so ain’t like the design is unproven.

          The more kiwis support a local enterprise culture, the more they will wean themselves off dependency on capitalists. Never underestimate the empowering effect of agency in the psyche! We need like-mindedness on this to become contagious. Great to see sustainable business trending big nowadays but has to be more authenticity in it – a real green business is a genuine hybrid of capitalism and socialism, both in design and in how it operates.

          • OnceWasTim

            Need a nanna nap right now (energy levels have collapsed) but hopefully we can continue this discussion, and also Lyn might get a glimpse.

            I’m hoping that ‘old school’ Jessie Mulligan will be able to put me into a deep sleep before he has to don his lycra and bile up the hill to RNZ for the Project.

  3. cleangreen 6

    Winston was 100% correct in october 2017 as he warned us all that the economy was at the top of the cliff on the night he chose to partner labour in October 2017.

    Winsrton warned that this correction would happen in his election speak as he announced that he will join NZ First coalition with Labour.

    Time to refresh our memories here.



    “In his explanation of why New Zealand First went with Labour over National, Winston Peters said the agreement reached in talks was a summation of policies that survived negotiations.

    He went on: “As the song says, You can’t always get what you want.”

    “Our negotiations have taken place against a backdrop of changing international and internal economic circumstances which we cannot ignore.”

    Those in New Zealand First believed that an economic correction, or a slowdown, was looming, and that the first signs were already apparent, he said.

    “There’s no denying that a enormous correction is looming and pretending low business confidence is just all spite misses the much more dangerous signals”.

    • cleangreen 6.1

      This is the latest current issue with ‘Ministerial services’ botch-up again;

      Who are Ministerial services overseen by?

      Could the ‘Ministerial Services’ be operated by several National Party ‘cling-ons trying to destabilise the labour lead Government’????


      We see today that the Government is in trouble with “Ministerial staffing issues” again as I seemed to be at Phil Twyford’s Ministerial office in Wellington as when I was trying to get clarity out of Twyford’s staff member ‘she slamed the phone down and cut me off before the discussion ended, and now we want an enquiry into why this ‘Ministerial staffer felt it was appropproate that she can terminate a phone call before answering questions from a constituent public member.

      Just as a Labour Minister is allegedgly charged with puishing a staffing member out of an office in Parlaiment perhaps we need to review the actions and performance of the “ministerial staff” and have the Minister of Internal affairs to open an enquiry into “Ministerial services” also now??????.

      • dukeofurl 6.1.1

        Press secretaries are employed more or less directly by their minister. Ministerial services just pays the salary

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 6.1.2

        She probably slammed the phone down because you were rambling and making no sense. Happens all the time when you’ve got the opportunity to type and review what you are writing. I can only imagine how incoherent you’ll be talking

  4. SaveNZ 7

    The opposite of security

    The GCSB’s current motto on its website is “If New Zealand has secrets worth stealing, then they’re worth protecting”. Now, the GCSB and their Five Eyes masters wants to make it radically easier for people to steal those very secrets they claim to exist to protect. How? By backdooring the encryption which protects our networks, our filesystems, our financial transactions, everything:


    • cleangreen 7.1

      According to this RNZ press release;- the leaker was not actually named by RNZ!!!

      So I suspect this was National party leaking again, as bad as the last one was that Simple Simon Bridges spending also was exposed, and now found to be him falsely leaking his spending for press cover.

      So it looks as though I am right sadly that the “Ministerial services staff” are behind all the leaking of information for “political reasons” probably by National Party cling-ons trying to destablise the labour lead government again and this is inside collussion going on here both inside the Government Ministerial services and the publically owned media network RNZ as they are recieving illegal leaked information from the Government employees conducting ‘poitical actions against their employer.

      National “dirty politics part two”???.


      Sources have told RNZ Ms Whaitiri was difficult to work with and point to a high staff turnover in her office. The press secretary role had been vacant for months.

      RNZ has chosen not to identify the press secretary. She has not responded to requests for comment.

      Both Ms Whaitiri and Ms Ardern are refusing to answer questions on the matter while the investigation is ongoing.

      Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters told RNZ Ms Ardern had alerted him to the reasons behind the inquiry but he would not elaborate on them.

      He would wait until the investigation was over and “see where the cards fall” before commenting, he said.

      “Allegations are not fact. They’re allegations. Let’s see whether they’re meritorious or not.”

  5. Pat 8

    Low level corruption with high level impact……how to undo a 9 year legacy?


    • Dennis Frank 8.1

      This looks like closet-stalinism. Eugenie asked for advice from the ecologist. A public servant intercepted that advice, then censored it before passing it on to her.

      I can’t see how any public servant could justify such misbehaviour. Does anyone here feel up to defending such closet-stalinists in our public service??

      • dukeofurl 8.1.1

        “Asked why the passages were deleted, Severinsen says: “The content formed a part of a larger piece of work under consideration by the department and it was not appropriate to include that subset of information until the other task was completed.”

        So that is the bullshit and hows its done.. unbelievable in their audacity…time for heads to roll.

      • cleangreen 8.1.2

        Yes Dennis I now see that when I had the phone slammed down on my conversation with Phil Twyfords staffer I felt that same “censoring’ controlling ‘stalinist’ Fed-up’ interference of my human rights to get questions answered by a ministers staffer as an employee of my government and that she also is a public servant.

        She was a person I describe as without any civility or reasonable patience or bedside manner and lacked all resonable ability to offer help to any public enquiries so I would ask Government to restore “civility” to public serive employees.

        To cut off during a convewrsation a enquiry from the public is unreasonable service and a stark lack of respect & humanity.

        Dennis you asked; ‘Am I feed up with low public service employees’?

        Yes some only, (as some are very good) – and in this case when I called Phil Twyfords office in Wellington, my human rights were clearly violated by this Ministerial staffer and Phil twyford should sack her and appologise to me for her lack of reasonable conduct, as he and his office have a recording of the conversation already and can easily review her disconduct..

        • Dennis Frank

          I share your concern and it seems clear that you have a valid grievance. Twyford’s gate-keeper could be operating in bulldog mode. Do such people get hired on the basis of Labour Party membership or are they supposedly neutral?

          If the latter, you could have a case for a formal complaint & it may be a good idea to learn how to proceed with one.

          • dukeofurl

            I keep reminding cleangreen that the Minister is totally the wrong person to help for the local issue.- the noise from heavy vehicles on the Kennedy Rd Overpass.
            its the Regional land Transport Committee who deal with local projects at this scale.
            The person in the Ministers office should have been able to assist you with their contact details

            • veutoviper

              My understanding is that cleangreen has been involved in all issues transport in the Gisborne and Hawkes Bay areas for many years and is well known to all people, organisations (eg District and Regional Councils including probably the local regional transport committees) in that area. He has also appeared before Select Committees etc including just a few months ago (I watched him/his group present a submission online). I suspect he is in contact with all local and regional councils and committees as well as Ministers’ offices regularly …

          • cleangreen

            Thanks again Dennis,

            Will do after Tuesday possible outcome, as we called our labour MP Napier office this morning and Stuart Nash’s local PA said she would have her staffer on the case Monday to get to the bottom of this intentional devisive blocking of communication beteen our NGO and Phil Twyford.

            Hope we finally get to discuss/solutions to Napiers truck gridlock noise and air polution public health problems facing our 12000 folks living alongside the truck route road HB Expressway to the port of napier, as people are badly affected by this now and are facing pysical damage to their health..

            I am holdiing a letter written by Helen Cl;ark as Prime minister of NZ dated 26th October 2003 to me as seretary of Pirimai residents association advising me that she has engaged both Mark gosche and michael Cullen to meet me and our committee at the HB Expressway with Transit NZ (now NZTA) CEO Robin Dun;op to help solve our issues.

            Then after several other meetings we got Michael Cullen to finally buy back our rail system to get freight back on rail and off the roads and place a smooth road along residential areas so we got help with the last labour lot.

            This last nine years NZTA took the smooth road away and trebbled the truck mfreight through our residential areas so we lost alot but now labour need to come back and fix all our problems national left us with.

            Interestingly the PCE report from their year long study of the HB Expressway advised Government to fix alll thse things and work with our residential groups also and we expect labour to comiit to this again. see page 22 ‘conclussions’.

    • OnceWasTim 8.2

      Yet another reason a review of our public service, and senior public servants is way past time.
      Hopefully, Skippy might remember this as one example, alongside others that encompass Health, Education, Economic Development,, Social Welfare, Employment, Standards, standards that include infrastructure and environmental risk, Local gubbamint, ……… not just the bugger’s muddle of processes and multiple organisational bureaucracy involved in child birth.
      Ian Lees-Galloway might even realise that there are some very simple edicts that can be issued regarding Ummiigration that could seriously impact, if not stop much of the exploitation of workers. (The solution isn’t going to be found by soley consulting with his ‘officials’)
      Right now though, we appear to be hung up on what’s best for the horse and its ability to race and support a betting industry than we are about the competencies relating to social policy and the citizenry of Aoteraroa/NuZull

      • OnceWasTim 8.2.1

        I just happened on NORightTurn’s http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2018/08/mushrooming-minister.html.

        Being an old codger (early 60s), I had to look up the urban dik to see what mushrooming meant – I’d asked my late 30s son first.

        Oh how the response reminded me of the last time I worked in the PS. and how different it was from the first time as a clerk in the Supreme Court after leaving college.

        Unbelievably apt
        “The solid twatting of a ho’s face by the bulbous bell-end belonging to an erect nob. It is either an act of intense passion and loving for the mushroomed one, or an act of anger at the dislike of an unagreeable technique used during oral sex. If the face is struck hard enough with the familiar mushroom shape of said bell-end, then a bruise will be left”

        In our corporatised ps, there are a number of CEOs whose job descriptions could probably reflect their position of being that ‘erect nob’

        • Andre

          While I don’t really wish to paint over that startling but apt mental picture, I suspect NRT’s use of “mushrooming” was probably intended to evoke the idea of being kept in the dark and fed bullshit.

  6. Adrian Thornton 9

    Jeremy Corbyn proposes new media model in the UK…bit of fight back from JC.

    And the bit I really like…Jeremy Corbyn calls on the BBC to declare staff ‘social class’

    …I would love to see the ‘social class’ breakdown at The Guardian…wouldn’t be to many surprises there I bet.

  7. SaveNZ 10

    We learned yesterday that the firm that owns Burger King in New Zealand has been banned from using migrant labour (ie people on work visas, not resident non-citizens) for a year.

    In light of the shortage of affordable houses, and the routing of employers to get migrants for questionable low paid occupations – and reports of employee’s paying for their questionable job, and the fact that all the new people on these low wages probably will qualify for Kiwibuild and also be competing on low cost rentals, and the amount of Maori in jail who could probably get a job flipping burgers instead of the migrants, perhaps time to rethink these bizarre immigration “skilled” skills?

    30 years ago it cost around $10,000 to sponsor in a worker and therefore was only used for real high value skills. Time to put that amount with inflation (around $20,000 as least) back on the table to get rid of all the routs.

    Main occupations for Skilled Migrant Category principal applicants, 2016/17
    Occupation 2016/17
    Number %
    Chef 684 5.7%
    Registered Nurse (Aged Care) 559 4.6%
    Retail Manager (General) 503 4.2%
    Cafe or Restaurant Manager 452 3.7%

    Number of people granted Essential Skills work visas by main occupations, 2016/17
    Occupation Number %
    Chef 2,178 6.6%
    Dairy Cattle Farm Worker 1,617 4.9%
    Carpenter 1,478 4.5%
    Retail Supervisor 961 2.9%
    Cafe or Restaurant Manager 942 2.9%
    Retail Manager (General) 767 2.3%
    Aged or Disabled Carer 748 2.3%


    • dukeofurl 10.1

      That would be right. There is now ‘work visa specialist firms’ which travel around from shop to shop or farms telling them of the ‘cheap deal’ they can do to replace their local workers with ‘imports’ I was at the Chemist shop and such a business branded vehicle pulled up outside the dairy next door.

    • Chris T 10.2

      Wasn’t flipping burgers. It was the manager

      Was interesting that story

      I heard about it a couple of days ago

      It was actually a kiwi worker that they were under paying

      A manager they were paying less than minimum wage to, but the punishment is not being able to get foreigners

      All good with the punishment, but the law must be written quite weird.

      It must kind of assume it would be a foreigner being under paid or something

      • SaveNZ 10.2.1

        Hilarious, the migrants get paid correctly and the Kiwis are under paid! Maybe they were trying to get rid of the Kiwi, by underpaying them. If they can’t pay minimum wages correctly they should not be importing in workers, let alone importing in workers for that skill set!

  8. SaveNZ 11

    I hope the government is writing the cheque for the infrastructure for the aforementioned houses… not expecting the rate payers to pay for it…

    Government to strip Auckland Council of powers over major housing developments

    Perhaps they need to look at who is taking the affordable houses – and do something about lazy immigration above because they already put in a fuel tax to help the lazy planners and now the government is pushing in, to screw up congestion and pollution further with being in charge of more houses!

    We really need (sarcasm) 20 liquor stores and burger Kings on every corner and the people who actually do real work in the city can’t get into work with all the congestion from low paid precariat workers driving around all day going from job to job, breaking down in their trucks as they deliver food and goods around to dodgy small businesses or the truck and trailers of dirt and concrete going across the city.

    God help us, even the pathetic low level IT workers are dropping off the skills list. What is that telling us as we “move” towards the digital economy? How many of those skill are growing the economy, in high tech or manufacturing for example?

    • Ad 11.1

      The government is writing cheques for infrastructure all over the country for new houses, because the councils are so weak and pathetic that they have not provided either the infrastructure or the houses for New Zealand society for decades.

      Good fucking job for the Minister kicking Councils all over the park.

      • SaveNZ 11.1.1

        Nope they are writing cheques to construction firms many of whom are overseas based and employ foreign workers with Kiwis taxes that should be paying for teachers and hospitals.

        Nobody has even seen this mythical thousands upon thousands of affordable houses. Construction firms are build spec houses for foreigners who bring money in to buy the house and then have no or small incomes so qualify for welfare.

        Government are complicit in allowing foreign buyers of apartments and foreign buyers for new builds and foreign buyers of land and employers to bring in thousands of questionable migrant workers like at Burger King.

        The government are actually increasing the cost of living and congestion for the aforementioned kiwis are they supposedly helping by their pathetic policies that they have not stopped since the Natz got out.

        In fact the immigration skills look even worse last year than the year before with the Natz in charge as at least that had IT on it even if it was at a numbingly low level.

        Not only that, the skills is on about a third of how people get into NZ residency, the rest are relatives off the aforementioned people and marriages…

        • Ad

          Actually the “cheques” are from the Housing Infrastructure Fund that was set up by the previous government . They are drawn down by local councils, regional councils, and NZTA. They are drawn for the purposes of building infrastructure including wastewater mains, pump stations, water supply reservoirs, and roads.
          They are not drawn by developers.

          And of course, this fund is entirely separate to the funds from general taxation for the salaries of teachers.

          A typical example is the $24 million loan announced by Phil Twyford yesterday for the new housing development in Queenstown.

          The housing being built is only mythical if you are ignorant and don’t follow the news,

    • Molly 11.2

      The quote at the end of the article is telling: “We have to do this, because if we don’t our kids will never be able to afford to live in this town,” he told NZME.”

      This is why the most effective means of getting NZer’s housed in affordable, healthy homes is not going to happen. Because the focus is firmly on maintaining a high sales prices – while simultaneously ensuring those that traditionally have had the ability to purchase – are supported while doing so.

      1. No mention about how providing affordable homes in secure tenancies (ie. state housing) improves health, community and crime outcomes.
      2. No mention about the number of working families reduced to living out of vehicles.
      3. No mention of the long-term trajectory of house prices and creation of bad living conditions when landlords are in the game only for the financial return,
      4. No suggestion of making policy, tax and other changes to reduce the attractiveness and effectiveness of putting money into residential properties to generate personal financial gain.

      Just stated worries about “children” not being able to live in the city. Inference “my” children. There have been children suffering from the housing crisis for years.

      • Ad 11.2.1

        Would you like him to summarise his entire housing and tenancy policies to make you feel better?

        There are active policies and reviews instigated by this Miniser to respond to all of those points.

        • Molly

          No, I would like those working on housing to understand that one of the most effective ways to address all the issues regarding “our children” not being able to afford housing is for the state to embark on a massive building programme. Not in conjunction with private developers, not with financial assistance for some to purchase, but in order to house our people.

          Whenever, I hear or read housing policy, these points are lightly touched on and not given the weight or priority that is required.

          • Molly

            As I wanted to see if the housing policy has changed substantially since the last time I checked I had a look at Labour’s Housing Policy.

            State Houses: People over Profit
            Pretty lightweight. No mention of the security of housing for all, and the multiple benefits that come from reducing increase in transitional housing. Nothing about recreating the egalatarian approach to housing that existed and paved the way for connected communities. The “need” is the part that rankles with me. The expectation that state housing is always to be transitional despite the community benefits of having secure and long-term tenants. Also, no mention of how they determine where those communities are built – ie. are they close to all services and recreational areas. Otherwise, you have tenants who are transport poor as well as otherwise.

            Pretty much what the main focus is on – particular “children” being able to enter the property market.

            Investing in warm dry homes
            A bit of a hotchpotch page to be honest. There have been studies showing that the installation of thermal curtains and pelmets are very effective in reduction of heat loss through single glazing. An much more affordable solution than replacing all windows with double glazing.

            And the final note on that page:

            This is just one of Labour’s fresh ideas to tackle the housing crisis. Labour’s comprehensive housing package includes:

            – building homes people can afford to buy, and restoring the Kiwi dream of owning your own place through our KiwiBuild programme and the Affordable House Authority.
            – a three point plan to crack down on speculators by banning o shore speculators from buying houses, taxing speculators who flip a house within five years, and ending the speculators’ tax loophole.
            – ensuring homes are healthy to live in and building state houses for families in need.

            Which is in line with how I understood the current policy focus to be. Not really sure that it has changed at all.

            • Ad

              Is there a reason that you are going to the Labour site rather than to the site of the actual government that forms and executes actual policy as a government?

              http://www.thebeehive.govt.nz is where you will find actual government policy on housing.

              • Molly

                Lazily, because when I googled housing policy NZ govt the Labour policy was second on the list. The beehive link for The Future of Housing was further down and I hadn’t scrolled that far.

                Once again, Ad. No concrete suggestions for the items I have mentioned. The only semi-fleshed out policy is Kiwibuild.

                I firmly believe that will not solve the issues regarding housing if it remains the priority, which it seems to be.

                (Also, the Labour party housing policy and the beehive link seem to be much of a muchness. Are we discussing content here?)

  9. Carolyn_Nth 12

    RNZ says Chelsea Manning has been cleared by Immigration NZ to apply for work visa for 2 speaking gigs.

    Also Stuff


    • Ad 12.1

      I’m interested in the policy differences between our Immigration Service clearing Chelsea for entry here, but Australia denying entry.

      Any view on the policy or operational or regulatory differences for the different result?

      • Carolyn_Nth 12.1.1

        I haven’t seen one. RNZ says NZ Immigration used a category “special direction”. Aussie authorities say Manning has failed a “good character test”.



        • Dennis Frank

          Protectionism. Don’t want to let any foreign criminals in because they feel the need to protect their domestic criminals. Also why they’ve started exporting kiwi crims back to here. Remember those headlines about the mafia taking over the Oz casinos in the seventies?

      • veutoviper 12.1.2

        Australia has not yet denied Manning entry despite many media headlines (and the one here on the post re this) stating that Australia has banned her.

        What Australia has done was on Wednesday they issued a Notice of Intention to deny a visa, which allows Manning to put her case why she should be granted a visa despite her convictions etc. (ie the Good Character Test). Presumably she and her sponsors etc have done this and are now awaiting a final decision.

        I suspect that Australia may take a harder line than NZ, but I am really pleased that NZ has gone ahead and now allowed her to apply for a special exemption to the conviction provisions that would normally prevent her getting a visa (according the RNZ because she has not offended anywhere that she has gone to on similar speaking tours).

        This means that NZ has taken a different approach to Australia which appears to be maintaining their hard line immigration approach that Dutton introduced (apart from a certain au pair…). It will be interesting to see what the Australian reaction will be to NZ’s position. LOL.

        Don’t know the exact differences between NZ and Australian immigration rules, but of interest is that Canada after refusing Manning a visa last year, granted her one in May this year to do a speaking event in Montreal (or Ottawa?) albeit on very restrictive conditions re time there etc. So there is precedent for her to be granted a “special direction” allowing a visa for entry to NZ to be issued on similar conditions.

        In terms of practicalities, Manning is due to speak in Sydney this Sunday so time is tight, then Melbourne next Friday before coming to NZ for Auckland Sat 8 Sept and Wellington 9 Sept, then back to Australia for Brisbane on 11 Sept.

        If Australia refuses a visa it is still probably feasible that she could still come to NZ since it is for two events.

        • veutoviper

          My reply above was thrown together in a hurry, but now see that my wording in para 3 could be misleading. So here is a better version with the changes in italics.

          Revised para 3

          I suspect that Australia may take a harder line than NZ, but I am really pleased that NZ has gone ahead and granted a special exemption to apply for a visa despite her convictions which would normally prevent her getting a visa (according the RNZ because she has not offended anywhere that she has gone to on similar speaking tours).

      • veutoviper 12.1.3

        Here is what The Australian is saying re the NZ decision and where the Australian is at.


        Here are the main points as The Australian articles usually quickly end up behind a paywall.

        However, Immigration New Zealand confirmed on Friday morning it had given Manning special dispensation to apply for a visa.

        “While Ms Manning was convicted of a serious offence and sentenced to 35 years imprisonment, it was noted that her sentence was commuted by President Obama in January 2017,” INZ general manager Steve Stuart said.

        “The likelihood of her offending while in New Zealand is considered low … (we) could see no reason to believe Ms Manning would not comply with the terms and conditions of any visa.”

        … The NZ government’s decision comes after Manning’s tour organiser, Think Inc, said this week it had received a notice of intention to deny the former soldier entry into Australia under section 501 of the Migration Act.

        She was banned from entering Canada last year due to her criminal convictions in the US but was allowed to speak in Montreal in May.

        Think Inc has called on the transgender activist’s supporters to lobby Australia’s new immigration minister, David Coleman, to allow her into Australia.

    • Chris T 12.2

      Good on her

      This may bring up an interesting situation actually

      If Aussie end up barring her, I wonder if she will bother paying all the cash just to come here

      Given some people on here proclaiming the difference between Manning and the Canadians is the Canadians are only it for the money, while Manning is in it to spread the word, I wonder what they say if she were to cancel

      • veutoviper 12.2.1

        Three events in Austalia; two in NZ. Therefore more likely that she would come here even if Australia bans here than say, the Canadians where they had five in Australia and only one in NZ.

    • Bill 12.3

      The best thing, politically speaking (as evinced by Molyneux and Southern) would have been for Manning to be denied and her message carried on the inevitable wave of outrage crashing around tha net.

      All credit to Michael Woodhouse though. He tried his best. 👿

      edit – won’t someone design a ‘dripping sarcasm’ tag?

    • veutoviper 12.4


      Australia is alive with the sound of – not music, but calls for the Australian Govt to rethink their propose ban on Chelsea Manning being given a visa.

      In less than 24 hours a Change.org petition to allow her to enter Australia has already got 15,000 signatures and counting.


      Here is a link to the Guardian article that is only a few minutes’ old saying that the Australian Government is considering lots of submissions calling for Manning to be allowed entry but time is now critical and if a favourable decisions is not imminent then she is unlikely to make Sydney for the Sunday event. (As an aside, Judith Collins gets a mention calling Manning a traitor).


      The Australian is apparently reporting that Di Natole, the Aussie Green Leader, is supporting allowing Manning to enter Australia, but cannot put up link as I have used my free quota of their articles.

      So time will tell. Good move NZ.

      • Ad 12.4.1

        I irrationally don’t like Chelsea Manning but will totally defend her ability to annoy me by speaking here. 🙂

        • veutoviper

          I had never heard her speak and was neither for or against but also totally defend her right to speak.

          Then Kim Hill interviewed her two weeks ago and I was very, very surprised. So much so that I would now like to go to her Wellington event but cannot afford it at present – and am also recovering from day surgery so probably too soon.

          As I said elsewhere here, it was one of Hill’s better interviews and she also seemed impressed with Manning.

          Here is a link if you want to try it.

          Re your post, I was not doxxing (I never do that as my anonymity and privacy are all important to me) and will reply later but off out now. You may be interested in my reply to Darien Fenton for a little of my experience.

          Facing Meka

          Its your over-generalisation without any supporting evidence etc that gets up my nose (grrrrrr, as you also did yesterday) – and the lemmings just fall in behind when some of them probably haven’t even been in the door of the Beehive! LOL.

  10. Pat 13

    For those who process information visually

  11. Herodotus 15

    The Government is looking at new and novel ways of financing infrastructure without breaking its strict budget responsibility rules.
    “A later analysis estimated an additional $3m-$6m in annual interest costs for every $1b borrowed by Housing New Zealand. ” So to ensure that we are within “Budget Responsibility Rules” it costs us more, yet in the financial records this debt doesn’t “really” exist !!!
    This appears to me to be a National MO, not an upfront Labour led govt

    Scrap the spending cap

    • dukeofurl 15.1

      The annual budget process costs in delays and treasury rigamarole for something like Housing NZ.

      The debt does exist. Just not under core crown debt.

      • Herodotus 15.1.1

        It there is a delay caused by process, then why not, to save us $millions of extra interest costs then transfer the debt at a later date ? If not, then how can this govt cry poor when govt workers seek fair wage increases?
        Perhaps this as you commented on is the reason “The debt does exist. Just NOT under core crown debt.”

  12. Gabby 16

    The ockoes have a policy of giving the Immigration portfolio to arseholes addy.

  13. Ad 17

    Tough break for the Greens and for Minister Genter that she’s still off while the government announces $4 billion to boost road safety.

    Otherwise it would have been the best-ever Greens policy win by $$.

    • veutoviper 17.1

      Was Shaw there? He has picked up her Associate Minister of Transport portfolio for the next six weeks, but I thought he was currently overseas. So bad luck …

      PS – I just put up an update at 12.4 re Australia and Manning’s visa to enter there.

  14. Dennis Frank 18

    Trotter allows his sense of humour out for a run around the park: http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2018/08/compassing-economys-death.html

    Makes me wonder about the residual powers of the Crown. Does sovereignty still enable it to hold barons accountable for misbehaviour? When captains of industry whine & moan that they’re losing confidence & the govt is to blame, would a few lashes of the legislative whip be a useful antidote? For instance, the govt could pass a law requiring all such barons to resign after issuing any such public complaint that they can no longer cope with the demands of their job.

    • bwaghorn 19.1

      Did you read it ??

      What’s free market got to do with it being forced to close by a bunch of dick heads . ??

      • indiana 19.1.1

        “Mangawhai Activity Zone trustee chairman Colin Gallagher says the committee voted to close Redfern-Hardisty’s operation because of the complaints from people wanting a “normal” coffee at the park.

        He wouldn’t say what the vote numbers were, but said it wasn’t close.

        “We have been extremely supportive of this guy. We own the container, we don’t charge him any rent, we don’t charge him for power, we don’t charge him for water.

        “But he has denied our customers choice. That’s where it is. Any customer should have a choice of whether there is plant-based or dairy-based milk in their coffee.”

        Take choice away from the customers and the free market reacts…quite simple really.

        • bwaghorn

          That’s still not the free market speaking . If the market had spoken the vendor would have gone broke ,which he hasn’t,he s been put out of business by whingeing tossers with a little power .

  15. cleangreen 20

    The bombshell comes now for our PM Jacinda and the greens.

    Maybe this may be PM Jacinda Ardern’s chance to shine again (as her generations nuclear moment) and offer the Greens something?

    Another thing Jacinda has missed is our loss of oxgen in our air that sustains us all is depleting now, as the new elephant in the room and this changes everything now.

    O2 Dropping Faster than CO2 Rising
    Implications for Climate Change Policies
    New research shows oxygen depletion in the atmosphere accelerating since 2003, coinciding with the biofuels boom; climate policies that focus exclusively on carbon sequestration could be disastrous for all oxygen-breathing organisms including humans Dr. Mae-Wan Ho

    Threat of oxygen depletion
    Mention climate change and everyone thinks of CO2 increasing in the atmosphere, the greenhouse effect heating the earth, glaciers melting, rising sea levels, floods, hurricanes, droughts, and a host of other environmental catastrophes. Climate mitigating policies are almost all aimed at reducing CO2, by whatever means.

    Within the past several years, however, scientists have found that oxygen (O2) in the atmosphere has been dropping, and at higher rates than just the amount that goes into the increase of CO2 from burning fossil fuels, some 2 to 4-times as much, and accelerating since 2002-2003 [1-3]. Simultaneously, oxygen levels in the world’s oceans have also been falling [4] (see Warming Oceans Starved of Oxygen, SiS 44).

    It is becoming clear that getting rid of CO2 is not enough; oxygen has its own dynamic and the rapid decline in atmospheric O2 must also be addressed.

    • Chris T 20.1

      On the upside about 50-85% of oxygen comes from phytoplankton (ocean plants)

      It happens with their photosynthesis so yay global warming and sun shine!!

      The is a joke!!! (before I get lynched)

      • cleangreen 20.1.1


        Breathe deep while you can sunshine.
        (get an oxygen supply for the day you cant)

  16. eco maori 21

    We are still letting people sell us lies we can see that has happened many time’s in the past because of people like trump choosing to ignore the Green house effect’s of Human caused Global Warming why because he can milk it he will be getting billion’s through the back door .Wealthy or power full people have set Humanity advances back 100 years by burning books and suppression new technology that will cause these people to lose power and control the carbon( baron that back trump) . If he could make money out of it he would put LEAD back in Petrol .We new lead was poisonous and it took 50 years to rip it out of the capitalist hand’s and put it’s fact’s of a bad mistake in our history books .
    We have to stand up and stop these people who are lieing to the whole Papatunuku
    JUST to make MONEY enough said I have 2 links below KIA KAHA Green tangata
    Ka kite ano P.S Watch Cosmos A Space Time Odssey season 1 episode 7 I will get my mokopunas to all watch all of this awesome programs



  17. eco maori 22

    Newshub Nation The living wage or $20 a hour will not cause a loss of 30 k of jobs thats just the Capitals spin as always.
    The worker’s deserve respect like all people is that not In the Law it would be much better for the many if we found solution’s for our low paid seasonal workers shortage I.E a way to make it more worth the effort to go to work I.E the employers need to pay more full stop.
    New Zealand have no privacy we are hooked up with the who and we no they are spying on the whole Papatuanuku enough said.
    Many thanks Nation for running the story on Myanmar this show’s the Papatuanuku
    need to know what’s going on in all these human made greed desasters that are growing at a alarming rate . ka kite ano P.S Tod Barclay enough said boys

  18. eco moari 23

    Some Eco Maori music M&M has just release his latest album I think we have some of the same views on our reality Ka pai E-Hoa link is below ka kite ano.

  19. eco moari 24

    Good evening Newshub That’s going to be a Papatuanuku class Americas Cup yacht race held in Auckland Tamaki-makau-rau one will be able to watch the race from the shore .
    With Napier’s problems one Great British Actor Michael Cain has made a statement that poverty is what creates crime and that’s a fact .In Napier there were heaps of jobs not now after the last nine years of money transfer policy’s ‘.
    There you go Technology at its best Many thanks Alibaba enough said.
    China plastic Surgery growth of 40% you know the mokopuna’s they are easily lead it’s the people of my generation that one can see that when they get longer in the tooth that they end up looking bad if they over do it ie heaps of operations .
    Kate I’v been wacthing Cosmos Spacetime Odyessey narrated by Neil Degrasse all tangata should watch this series. Ka kite ano P.S I can see how fast the music of my Koauau travels around Papatuanuku

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