Open mike 31/12/2014

Written By: - Date published: 8:00 am, December 31st, 2014 - 191 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeThe Authors of the Standard are now in holiday mode. Posting will be less regular and dependant on individual author enthusiasm. Open mike will continue every day and prepare yourself for some year in review posts and some recycling of old stuff. And as R0b has said be nice to each other.

Open mike is your post.

The Standard is not a conspiracy – just a welcome outlet for the expression of views. Leaders that command respect will not be undermined by this.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

191 comments on “Open mike 31/12/2014”

  1. millsy 1

    Congratulations Dame Tariana. Now you can take your place alongside Sir Apriana Ngata and Sir Maui Pomare.

    Hope the further decline of living standards among your people due to you supporting National’s policies and supporting mass evictions from state housing to benefit private landlords is worth it.

    • vto 1.1

      Yep. Tariana certainly deserves recognition but it is significantly dented by her and the MP’s support for the horrible and debilitating effect on the poor of the policies of this Nat government which she has supported.

      Kind of actually nullifies the total, which is a shame.

    • A bigot gets honoured for support of the National Party – nothing out of the ordinary, then.

    • Sanctuary 1.3

      If this means I never get to her say in her sad, condescending voice of victimhood “my people…” again then I say good job.

  2. TheContrarian 2

    Would be very nice to have a Phil Ure free day today. Yesterday’s epic Open Mike “discussion” was…long and pointless

    • no..it was long..and ‘pointed’..

    • Skinny 2.2

      A tad rude there cobbah, many of us enjoy Phil’s view. Your sounding like freedom of speech police.

      • TheContrarian 2.2.1

        Meh, people say the same about Pete George.

        • RedLogix 2.2.1.1

          [RL: As long as it’s confined to Open Mike moderation is more relaxed. While the usual rules still apply around pointless abuse, sexism, racism and legal defamation etc – the the content is pretty much over to what the participants want to bang on about.]

        • CATMAN 2.2.1.2

          “Meh, people say the same about Pete George.”

          Citation needed. i don’t recall anyone say they “enjoy” Pete’s “view.”

          • greywarshark 2.2.1.2.1

            @ CATMAN
            Cheers for 2015. Have you ever tried some kahlua or Baileys cream in with your milk?

          • TheContrarian 2.2.1.2.2

            I think you misunderstand. No one said they enjoy Pete George rather they often wish that we could not “enjoy” his postings.

        • emergency mike 2.2.1.3

          “Meh, people say the same about Pete George.”

          I’ve also never seen this happen.

          Contrarian, if you find pu so annoying why is it you spend so much time engaging with him?

          Even if his argumentative style is well, frustrating might be a kind word, and even if a change from the otherwise worthy topics of cannabis law reform and the relative merits of veganism might go down well, he is capable of generating interesting discussion sometimes. I’ll give them a look over the utterly vapid and tedious PG ‘discussions’ anyday.

          I’m not really sure that either of them truly intend to derail threads and take up so much space with the arguments they create, even though they seem oblivious to the fact that that is what in fact ensues. I don’t think it’s their intention to cause disruption in the true sense of tr0lling. In my observation these negative aspects of the styles of both pu and PG occur because the same certain people seem to be unable to resist having a go at them. Even though those same people should know by now how that goes.

          I think the truth is that a number of those people enjoy it. I.e. they know perfectly well that pu and PG won’t back down and that they always have to have the last word. So they keep throwing stones at the wasp’s nest, then get outraged at the mess of angry wasps flying around. Which is a bit close to tr0lling in itself.

          People persisting in trying to have logical debates with people they reapeatedly complain about having an illogical debating style seems a bit weird to me. Each to their own. I’ve been known to shout at walls so I guess I can’t talk.

          • Murray Rawshark 2.2.1.3.1

            Yes. It takes two to tango, or in Phil’s case, 3 or 4. I also get the strong impression that a couple here just like poking a stick at him. What I can’t figure out is if he thinks he’s actually advancing his causes by the aggressive way in which he sometimes responds.

      • tricle up 2.2.2

        +1 enjoy phil s views even if he is plant consumer and veggie muncher..

      • Murray Rawshark 2.2.3

        Phil’s posts remind me why I don’t hang around dope smokers. They are useful.

    • tc 2.3

      Xmas should harden you up as to ignoring certain folks, otherwise the family gatherings get very annoying rapidly.

      Just skip over them and rejoice in the open tolerant approach TS uses which permit such variety unlike other blogs.

  3. millsy 3

    And before National’s supporters get carried away….after the special votes were counted thier share of the vote was about the same as 2011.

  4. philj 5

    Its official. The Panel on RNZ is 50/50 split on left/right balance. According to the judgment of the shows producer! A large number of panelists were unidentifiable.I.e did not know. I emailed Jim for a list of each, so I could be better informed of the bias ….. still waiting . OIA material? What a poor joke The Panel is. They need more informed commentators, preferably independent, neutral academics, prepared to speak out. Are there any left in NZ that are allowed on RNZ?

    • Skinny 5.1

      I find Jim Mora screws the debate to suit his own right thinking ideology. Many of his panelists are living life very cosy and annoy me when they purport to having a wide knowedge of issues that those on struggle street face day in day out. It’s time he is moved on the difference between the nine till noon show and his afternoon show is chalk & cheese.

    • Tracey 5.2

      I emailed the CE of RNZ earlier this year asking a number of questions. Two which were ignored were

      1. Are Hooton and Williams paid for their appearances;
      2. Are panelists paid for their appearances

      I did not ask for disclosure of the amount of their pay if they are indeed remunerated.

      Funny he answered the other questions.

      • Skinny 5.2.1

        Hooton will be clipping as many tickets as he can, he would more than likely be getting paid from RNZ. He will also be getting backhanders from the lobby groups he represents, and some would say
        the shady rightwing supporters of this Govenment.

        • Tracey 5.2.1.1

          odd the CE wouldnt say. it forces me to waste time on an OIA

          • tc 5.2.1.1.1

            Not odd at all RNZ has become a nat party tool like mediawonks and radio network they stiched that medium up years ago.

            If it was truly public and open that would all be disclosed and nobody should be paid to gain a national soapbox IMO as they are all backed one way or another without more taxpayer dosh being required.

            • George Hendry 5.2.1.1.1.1

              Greetings Tracey and tc – 🙂

              Yes they tried to stitch it up, but stitching starts to work loose if people keep tugging at it…

              Why is the PM choosing to appear more on fringe radio that Radio NZ? Could it be that he has been getting given an ever so slightly harder time from interviewers and listeners lately on RNZ? This would seem to be how to take back the public domain, little by little.

              • Tracey

                greetings to you too.

                according to hooton, key takes his lying spiel to fm so he can lie about who he really is to “people who are not interested in politics”. rnz befire christmas

                • George Hendry

                  Thanks Tracey 🙂

                  He should be warned, it could backfire on him. ‘At last, a nice blokey accessible politician, they’re not as bad as I thought. I know, I’ll follow him on Twit, watch him dishing it to the others In The House, he’s got Sunny Bill on his team, hey and the ref as well !, let’s have the live feed out at the barbie…’

            • Tracey 5.2.1.1.1.2

              sorry tc, was being sarcastic

              • tc

                No apols required, just spelling it out for the new entrants in the interests of edumacation, happy new year Tracey and all TS consumers.

    • George Hendry 6.1

      @ Nadis –

      Brilliant, if Freudian.

      ‘Protests broke out in Moscow on Tuesday night, as hundreds gathered in front of the Kremlin in opposition to the sentencing of a critic of President Vladimir Putin.

      Police moved to disburse those protesters, apparently arresting some…’

      Did they warn: ” You will pay for this !” (and here’s how) 🙂

  5. Clemgeopin 7

    The Maori party reminds me of the despicable Judas Iscariot who sold his mana and his soul for a few bobs of silver. Shame on them.

    • karol 7.1

      I switched off the RNZ news this morning – too much about the “honours” people. Such honours may have been worth something once, and some people who achieve them are very worthy. However, in general, they seem to have become very devalued as they are rewards handed down largely from the self-serving elites.

      • Tracey 7.1.1

        Agreed, the awards, like society are upside down. The most selfless, tireless, unpaid heroes are at the bottom of the honours pile…

        Paul Collins, most noted for being at the helm when Brielry’s plunged to obscurity. My brother in law just one of many who got a letter saying even at .25c per share they are now rendered useless…my recollection is he got $4m to piss off…

        • Southern Man 7.1.1.1

          I see that Auckland magician Alan Watson has been awarded an QSO. Criticism of Paul Collins may be unjustified – perhaps he got his knighthood for making thousands of investor’s money disappear?

      • Halfcrown 7.1.2

        How true.
        I was privileged a few years ago to attend an honour being given at Government House. Not privilege to go to Government House, the privilege was this person requested that I attend.
        I was convinced that the”lower” honours were there to keep the peasants happy, and in their place. No way were the people who received the lower awards were going to get knighthoods etc. No, that is exclusively for our betters and elders.
        After hearing what some of the people had done for the betterment of NZ and their fellow man, to receive an honour, I feel they should all have got a knighthood at least, especially after hearing who had received a knighthood that year.
        It came home to me what a bloody farce and decadent this honour system is, and sooner this medieval practice is ditched the better..

        • Tracey 7.1.2.1

          this ^^^ 100% reflects my experience attending my partners award of mnzm.

          the higher up the award you go the less they did for others until they were incredibly wealthy. people lower down were volunteering as part of their ordinary wage earning lives

    • Skinny 7.2

      The sellout Maori party do know a cliché or 2.
      “better to be in the tent than out”.
      “you can’t achieve much if your not seated at the table”.
      “at the end of the day being part of the Government it’s about gaining concessions”.

      Look for National to moved to abolish Maori Electorate Seats, especially if you consider Labour will run a strong candidate against Favell next election. The Tory Maori Party will then become destined to be a sad part of our political history.

    • Murray Rawshark 7.3

      There is a long and ignoble tradition of kupapa activity, which may temporarily reward those who indulge in it, but always at the expense of other Maori. This award from the worst PM we’ve ever had is Turia’s badge of shame.

  6. James 8

    “The Maori party reminds me of the despicable Judas Iscariot who sold his mana and his soul for a few bobs of silver. Shame on them.”

    Sounds a lot more like mana to me.

  7. Tautoko Mangō Mata 9

    Congratulations to Māori TV for showing the excellent doco last night on the resistance put up by corporate and farmer lobby groups in NZ against proposals to make meaningful climate change policy.
    Meanwhile in the US of A, there are reports of a Delaware-size gas plume over North West New Mexico confirmed by NASA.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/delaware-sized-gas-plume-over-west-illustrates-the-cost-of-leaking-methane/2014/12/29/d34c3e6e-8d1f-11e4-a085-34e9b9f09a58_story.html
    “As early as next month, the Obama administration will announce new measures to shrink New Mexico’s methane cloud while cracking down nationally on a phenomenon that officials say erodes tax revenue and contributes to climate change. The details are not publicly known, but already a fight is shaping up between the White House and industry supporters in Congress over how intrusive the restrictions will be.
    Republican leaders who will take control of the Senate next month have vowed to block measures that they say could throttle domestic energy production at a time when plummeting oil prices are cutting deeply into company profits. Industry officials say they have a strong financial incentive to curb leaks, and companies are moving rapidly to upgrade their equipment.”
    This is the same sort of thinking as illustrated by the NZ corporate and Farming lobbyists in last night’s doco. It’s all about short term money issues and bugger future generations.

    • tc 9.1

      And national who refused to back it after indicating they would, got elected then excused their farming and power generating profit takers from it saddling the rest of the burden across everyone else.

      Wonder if maxwell will be having words about such pieces going to air.

    • Tracey 9.2

      i guess the restructure hasnt quite kicked in as the mats planned.

      • tc 9.2.1

        There is resistance and the hope he reverts to the bully boy approach that got him turfed from TVNZ which will cut both ways at MTV.

        Time will tell

    • vto 9.3

      That was certainly a very good doco and exposed the farming sector and business sector for the greed and self-interest which drives their thinking and decisions. It is yet further evidence to support the contention that people and organisations with greed and self-interest for their drivers should never be let anywhere near the important decisions that impact on society – they are not set up to consider such decisions. They are set up solely to make profit – that is all.

  8. Bearded Git 10

    I kind of like this.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11380393

    Though the Whale probably uses a double-headed coin….

    • Pete George 10.1

      Whale isn’t known to be a hacker. If the cartoon had Year of the Blogger you’d have a good point.

      Slater is reasonably well exposed and limited in what he can do. Political hacking is a disturbing precedent.

      • weka 10.1.1

        Irrespective of whether Slater fits a techinical definition of ‘hacker’, he doxes people, which puts him in the ‘wreck innocent lives’ box (and yeah, he uses a double sided coin). He also is eyebrow deep in Dirty Pollitics, so ditto.

        You, PG, are a dirty politics apologist. Which puts you in Slater’s camp by choice and intent.

        • Pete George 10.1.1.1

          But he does it though blogging, not hacking. There’s a major difference – in particular, hacking is illegal.

          I’m not in Slater’s camp, I’m excluded from it. I’ve agreed with some things he does and says but I’ve strongly opposed him as well. How often have you confronted him directly? Or do you just play dirty from safety?

          • weka 10.1.1.1.1

            “But he does it though blogging, not hacking. There’s a major difference – in particular, hacking is illegal.”

            No, he uses backend access and techniques to track people and expose them in a ‘wreck lives’ kind of way, which is actually pretty similar to what hackers do only they have more skills. You can call that part of being a blogger, but that just proves you are in Slater’s camp (and untrustworthy).

            “I’m not in Slater’s camp, I’m excluded from it. I’ve agreed with some things he does and says but I’ve strongly opposed him as well.”

            You are in Slater’s camp because of how you behave and what you believe. He may not let you play with the big boys, but the fact that you have to sit on the margins of their game doesn’t mean you haven’t allied with it. It’s nothing to do with Slater and everything to do with your choices.

            “How often have you confronted him directly? Or do you just play dirty from safety?”

            Accusing me of playing dirty? Oh dear, you really are digging yourself a big hole here. You still don’t have a grasp of what DP is do you. Or maybe it’s just that it suits your agenda to muddy the waters and make DP mean something that everyone does, instead of the very specific actions that Slater, Key and co engage in. Which would be another tick on the list of why you’re in their camp.

            Of course I don’t engage with Slater, because it’s not safe to do so. That you think there is something wrong with me for that just says a heap about you.

            • Pete George 10.1.1.1.1.1

              You seem to know little about what I believe, going by how much you make up (which is dishonest or ignorant).

              It’s not “muddying the waters’ saying that dirty politics is much wider than Slater et al.

              I think trying to ring fence Dirty Politics in a targeted attack rather than addressing dirty politics generally is little more than playing the game and avoids addressing the whole problem. Deliberately? It’s counter productive to dealing with it.

              • Bearded Git

                PG-one of Cunliffe’s and the MSM’s failures, was not to get across to voters that what Key, Ede, Whale et al were up too was well beyond the pale and well beyond anything Labour has been involved in.

                The “they all do it argument” is simply Crosby-Textor classic spin which you seem to be buying into.

                • Not so much “buying into it” as “a major source of it.” But then, he does seem to be under the impression that “dirty politics” means being rude to people, so maybe he does actually believe what he’s saying.

                  • weka

                    I’d be willing to go with ‘being rude to people’ if it weren’t for the fact that this has been explained to him endlessly and he’s not that thick. And for the fact that’s it’s such an important distinction. So unless I see evidence to the contrary, I’m going with PG as a DP apologist at the least, and probably a major contributor to the problem.

              • Tracey

                could you post your proof of the type of specific behaviours denoted in dirty politics undertaken by those not named in dirty politics… including proof of a specific and targetted and funded two track strategy. tia

                • Sacha

                  I’d welcome evidence of even one story handed by an undisclosed political operative to a left-wing blog, then picked up by mainstream media. Cosgrove, Mallard and co bad-mouthing their own party doesn’t count.

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    Cosgrove, Mallard, and co. are the reserve platoon of the NAct dirty politics team. They count, but not on the side of the left.

                • Pete George

                  Hager doesn’t own ‘dirty politics’ and doesn’t get to dictate what applies to it and what doesn’t just because that’s what he named his book. Neither does his fan base.

                  It’s often been claimed Helen Clark played dirty, even against her own. The Peter Doone example is often quoted.

                  And from Politics is a sleazy business – regardless of who is in power

                  It’s worth noting this shadowy attack-politics stuff is not new and not the sole domain of National.

                  The then Labour Party president Mike Williams took a well-publicised trip to Melbourne to dig dirt on Key ahead of the 2008 election. It backfired: Labour found nothing and subsequently dropped in the polls.

                  Helen Clark was probably the biggest gossip of them all when she led the country. She leaked and spread rumours about people and even those in her own team – I wonder how her private communications and those of her senior ministers would look splashed across a book. I bet it wouldn’t be pretty.

                  Her Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels was sacked for allegations ‘‘swirling’’ over allegedly having sex with someone under the age of consent decades previously – it was Clark and her team making them swirl.

                  Samuels, later exonerated by a police investigation, never got a fair hearing – the ninth floor of the Beehive killed him off. I was with him at his house the night he was sacked – he was devastated and blamed Clark for the dirty tricks.

                  The murky Left infiltrated a National Party cocktail function in 2008, secretly recorded MPs and leaked them (to me).

                  I was also involved in a series of stories about former Cabinet minister John Tamihere over financial irregularities at his previous job at the Waipareira Trust which saw him sacked as a minister. When I got home, my house had been broken into. Nothing was taken but all the windows and doors had been left open. TV3 hired a security firm to change the locks, watch my kids at school and investigate the break-in. The firm concluded that someone wanted to frighten me – and we left it there.

                  I also remember doing business with Labour’s chief of staff Matt McCarten in the 1990s, when he ran the Alliance. Matt was fun and charming – but let’s not kid ourselves, if anyone knew how to run a black ops sting it was him.

                  Senior Labour ministers and press secretaries rang to point me toward The Standard, a Left-wing blog, to read its vitriol on certain days. Who had written those posts? I’m told many were written under fake names by Labour staffers paid by the taxpayer.

                  My point is politics is dirty, no matter who is in power. Hager seems genuinely surprised at this. Frankly I’m surprised at his naivety.

                  Can you provide of proof of “a specific and targeted and funded two track strategy” that was significantly different to politic PR as usual?

                  • Sacha

                    Pete, there’s a whole book about it. If you don’t understand the difference, best stop talking about it eh.

                    • Pete George

                      Why? It’s not my problem if some try to ring fence a term to suit a narrow agenda. I’d prefer to address wider issues of dirty politics. As I’ve already said, Hager doesn’t own the term. He’s not entirely clean himself.

                    • weka

                      🙄

                      Dude, Hager invented the term in the NZ context.

                      It doesn’t matter whether you agree with Hager or not, he did get to define what DP means. You on the other hand want to redefine it to suit your own agenda, which makes you a hypocrite as well as a DP apologist and trole.

                      “I’d prefer to address wider issues of dirty politics”

                      I don’t believe you. If you did actually want to do that, you would differentiate between DP and the wider issues of how politics is conducted in NZ. Instead you just want to mix it all up and pretend that everyone behaves badly just because they’re rude.

                    • Sacha

                      The right deiberately set about applying the term ‘dirty politics’ to anything they could after the election, to neutralise its meaning (another Crosby/Textor ploy?). ‘Miss, she pulled my hair’. Opinion polls suggest they got away with it.

                      Pete, you’re being a tool of miscreants if you undermine a specific term just like they have done. Find another one if you want to talk more broadly. Better still, create a new one.

                    • Tracey

                      many in the media also seek to redefine it or deliberately misunderstand it. they had many many years to write about it and define it but it is mainly a phrase only in the consciousness of kiwis cos of hagers book.

                    • Pete George

                      “The right deiberately set about applying the term ‘dirty politics’ to anything they could after the election, to neutralise its meaning”

                      What do you base this claim on? Fairly hard to prove I’d think.

                      I’ve seen more of a concerted effort to try and ring fence the meaning of “Dirty Politics”.

                      The big problem with ‘Dirty Politics’ now is that it proved to be ineffective at best in the election, and probably helped motivate National voters so would have been counter-productive.

                      There may be some specific issues still to come out of it but I think there’s more to be lost than gained by continuing beating that drum.

                      Better to promote better in future rather than flog a negative historic horse.

                    • Sacha

                      Move along, nothing to see here.
                      Another original line.

                    • Tracey

                      PG to suggest focussing on the future suggests you believe the behaviour in the book has stopped, yet you assert everyone is doing it. these seem to be incompatible assertions.

                      john key gave slater his new phone number when he had a chance to genuinely distance himself. is key responsible for everything slater does? of course not but he has tacitly said slater is fine by me. by giving out his new number, texting with him about investigations and publicly apologising to him, something he only does for “serious reason”.

                    • Pete George

                      “PG to suggest focussing on the future suggests you believe the behaviour in the book has stopped, yet you assert everyone is doing it. these seem to be incompatible assertions.”

                      I’ve not said “everyone is doing it”. I’ve said more than Key have been doing it in the past, but I’ve also said a number of parties and MPs haven’t been doing dirty and are against it.

                      “john key gave slater his new phone number”

                      Key gave conflicting versions. One of the latest seems to be:

                      In the House this afternoon, Mr Key said his new number was given to media numbers “programmed in my phone which typically contact me via text”, which include many in the press gallery as well as other media.

                      http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/opposition-is-slater-keys-friend-or-foe-2014120215

                      That was supposedly to explain how Slater got his new number.

                      I think Key should have done more to be seen to be cutting back on communications with Slater, but it’s his call and his risk.

                      Anything that could be linked between Key and Slater is likely to be scrutinised and question. I think that’s a good thing. Some good has come out of Hager’s book.

                      But I think Little in particular has to be careful about close to “Dirty Politics” he gets. There’s a risk of backfire, especially if Slater ends up substantiating some of his claims.

                  • Tracey

                    “… Mike Williams took a well-publicised trip to Melbourne to dig dirt on Key ahead of the 2008 election..”

                    can you post a link to where jason edes name was publicised in relation to his paid role to dig dirt and to slaters use of prostitutes to dig dirt on local and national politicians before hagers book?

                    do you consider the following is proof?

                    “… also remember doing business with Labour’s chief of staff Matt McCarten in the 1990s, when he ran the Alliance. Matt was fun and charming – but let’s not kid ourselves, if anyone knew how to run a black ops sting it was him.

                    Senior Labour ministers and press secretaries rang to point me toward The Standard, a Left-wing blog, to read its vitriol on certain days. Who had written those posts? I’m told many were written under fake names by Labour staffers paid by the taxpayer.”

                    Thanks for your link and extensive quote from duncan garner. i am still a little unclear whether you completely get “two track”. if i recall correctly, and i may not, you didnt read all of dirty politics by hager. or i may be mixing you up with gosman who read a little bit at his sisters.

                    • Pete George

                      I can’t guarantee having read every word but I’ve read most of it at least. And I’ve read close to all of the Whale Dumps.

                    • Tracey

                      thanks for answering my last question, there were at least two before that

                    • George Hendry

                      Hi again Tracey 🙂

                      I believe that PG absolutely gets two track politics : –

                      # It would be understandable to cite and quote an article referring to Dirty Politics, even though from a source involved in said dirty politics, if PG naively saw it as proving his point.

                      # It does illustrate his point – but that’s not all it does. He has carefully edited it, while carefully implying that he has not done such a thing, leaving readers who don’t click the link to assume he has quoted it in full.

                      # It would have been easier to copy and paste the whole thing, but he has copied and pasted, and cut all criticism of National, leaving in all criticism of Labour. Which makes his version of the article far more biased than an author already known for his bias in the same direction.

                      If he were truly concerned about dirty politics, whoever did or does it, he would not have taken such care to quote out of context.

                      Nor does he subject Garner’s assertions to any such scrutiny, as I saw further down the thread he is well able to do, as he applied to my comment about the ten-hour police raid.

                      Perhaps as a lawyer 🙂 you already knew all this. He is an able debater, all the more so by successfully pretending to be somewhat naive, who seems to have decided not to use his considerable ability in the service of truth.

                    • Tracey

                      well spotted george. that is precisely what phil ure did yesterday with the mouse research.

                      wishing you and yours a happy and healthy 2015

                  • karol

                    This audio is of Duncan Garner saying a lot of the same stuff as in his print op ed piece. But he also says, that while politics has always been “grubby”, the stuff in Hager’s book shows Slater, Ede et al were doing something much more venal and nasty, much more organised and vicious than anything before it – he says Slater et al had taken grubby politics a step further. e.g. with the dirt digging on people’s personal lives, the attempted blackmail, etc.

                    And Garner ends by saying the important question is what did John Key know about the stuff going on from his iffice and when?

                    • Pete George

                      I agree with Garner on at least the more vicious bit, and also on what Key actually knew about specifics of what was going on in his office. My guess is he knew some but not the full extent, hence the easing out of Eade as quietly as possible.

                    • Sacha

                      Hiding Ede from the media and giving him a job with a party associate sheds no light at all on how much the PM knew or did not know.

                      If the PM genuinely did not know, we would have seen Eagleson shown the door (on the basis that as Ede’s boss he sure as hell knew).

                      But fudge on, macduff, if it warms your cockles.

                    • Tracey

                      PG

                      you cited garner as proof of the others doing two track politics but when karol quotes him you only partially agree with garner

                    • Tracey

                      Sacha

                      and why deliberately delay announcing edes resignation til after the election… nothing to fear nothing to hide.

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    Insinuation and bullshit from Duncan Garner? Get a bloody life. That rubbish is too weak to even respond to.

                    • karol

                      Garner does make some reasonably good points. But he fails to get to the crux of what Hager’s “Dirty Politics” is about – the 2 track strategy, the politics of deception and diversion, etc., hiding from the general public their true agenda.

                      And Garner is hardly a choir boy when it comes to grubby attack politics – who could forget his obsessive persecution of Chris Carter – using his journalist platform for his own “get Carter” campaign of hate.

            • Tracey 10.1.1.1.1.2

              you probably have engaged with slater on here but dont know it… he says things he posts are his, then turns out it is a paid copy and paste, so he probably says he doesn’t post here, but does.

              • weka

                If that’s a reply to me, the difference is that Slater has no backend access to anyone’s data by talking to them here.

      • weka 10.1.2

        “Political hacking is a disturbing precedent.”

        That doesn’t even make sense. ‘Political’ hacking isn’t new. And political hacking is a disturbing precendent of what?

        • George Hendry 10.1.2.1

          Greetings, Weka 🙂

          I think the political-hacking-disturbing-precedent bit was aimed at Rawshark’s illegal hacking of material some of which was used in Dirty Politics. It can be argued (speciously) that anything deplorable (eg setting up a whitewash inquiry, blogging to ruin lives etc) is essentially ok as long as it isn’t illegal (yet).

          When I want to act in an ethically and morally bankrupt way, best not to break the law while I’m at at it or I risk leaving myself without a defence.

          Scene in front of darkened computer screen:

          Boss:

          ‘Wretch !!! You have failed me. I exclude you from my gang. But I am merciful – you can get back in if you go on TS and provoke some of them to make comments that show they are As Vicious As I Can Be. Goeth now and doeth my bidding.’

          And you’re absolutely right, poisonous snakes best not approached except confidently and competently 🙂

      • tc 10.1.3

        Surprise surprise PG is a DP diffuser.

        Chapter 2 etc, he didn’t discover the flaw, bhatnagar did, he did exploit it and claim to have discovered it.

        Slater remains at large and unchecked whereas hagers been raided and still no action on the police complaint despite evidence in the book that slater and the national party were up to their necks in it.

        Slater is more powerful than ever with many Nats in his pocket and a useless MSM so spin away Petey.

        • weka 10.1.3.1

          “Surprise surprise PG is a DP diffuser”

          +1

        • Pete George 10.1.3.2

          I’m against dirty politics no matter who does it. Are you? Or just if it’s Slater or National?

          I think it was fair enough for Slater to expose the unprotected data but I opposed him doing anything with the data.

          Slater has been significantly checked, which I think is a good thing. I don’t agree that he is more powerful the ever.

          I think he currently has legal action against him.

          • weka 10.1.3.2.1

            “I’m against dirty politics no matter who does it.”

            Liar. You don’t even understand what Dirty Politics is. Or you dissemble, because it suits your muddle of the road agenda to try and play both sides.

            • Pete George 10.1.3.2.1.1

              There you go again. Playing dirty politics.

              And your lack of understanding of “muddle of the road agenda to try and play both sides” is ironic.

              • There you go again. Playing dirty politics.

                Well, weka’s right – you obviously have no idea what “dirty politics” actually is. Either that or you’re pretending to have no idea, which would be even worse.

                For the record, someone who calls you a liar isn’t playing “dirty politics,” they’re telling you what they think. Now, in the unlikely event that weka were to get someone to go round the local brothels asking whether you’re a customer, or get a cabinet minister to reveal personal info about you, or discuss a way of blackmailing you to get you to stop blogging, or use any other of the tools of Slater’s trade as outlined in Hager’s book, they would indeed be playing “dirty politics.” Calling you a liar – not so much. It’s really not a difficult concept to grasp.

                • Pete George

                  I’m well aware of some of the worst of Slater. And I’ve been strongly critical of some of Key’s association with Slater. But that doesn’t make Key dirty and everyone else preceding him clean.

                  Attempting to discredit people with unsubstantiated accusations you’re politically opposed to is a common part of dirty politics. Milder than a a lot of what Slater has done, but similar objectives and still dirty.

                  Or maybe you could define what “dirty politics” actually is PM, if you think you’re an authority on it.

                  • RedLogix

                    We all know politics is a tough game. It’s often not especially fair, nor very principled – but there are recognised limits. (PM above lists some of the more obvious ones.)

                    In this case Key’s office was clearly neck deep in a culture where they were misusing the resources and powers of the state to discredit and damage their political opponents.

                    • weka

                      Yes.

                      Pretty sure we’re now in the part of the PG tips trole line where he simply can’t cope with clear explanations and will revert to dissembling, not responding directly, addressing irrelevant things, or just repeating himself in various inane ways because he has no argument further than “I disagree with you”.

                    • Tracey

                      and even when his office was clearly implicated, key told the public his office was cleared. an unequivocal lie.

                    • Pete George

                      And I’ve seen many people, journalists included, who say it was largely politics as usual, with some Slater excesses added.

                      I oppose Key’s office doing it, and it’s worse from the PM’s office due to the power and resource imbalance, but it’s far from confined to the PM’s office.

                      For example it could also be claimed that Winston Peters is often misusing the resources and powers of the state to discredit and damage his political opponents. It’s an important part of opposition to hold Government to account, but using resources to dig for dirt and make unsubstantiated accusations under Parliamentary privilege seems dirty to me.

                      Greens also use state resources to dig up things designed to embarrass their political opponents but stick to clean holding to account, so it can be done in a reasonable way.

                    • Tracey

                      weka @ 144pm…

                      see

                      pg below and

                      Open mike 31/12/2014

                  • weka

                    “Or maybe you could define what “dirty politics” actually is PM, if you think you’re an authority on it.”

                    He just did you idiot.

                    “Attempting to discredit people with unsubstantiated accusations you’re politically opposed to is a common part of dirty politics.”

                    Two things. One, I’m not actually opposed to you politically in the party political sense. I think you are an arch trole who is also an apologist for DP.

                    Two, my accusations are substantiated and upfront. It’s your own actions that are a discredit to you. That you disagree with me doesn’t mean the accusations are unsubstantiated.

                  • Tracey

                    do you understand that Key has held the most powerful position in nz for 6 years and if he is dirty, and it seems to me there are only 2 options

                    1. he has no knowledge of what is going on in his own office, cabinet and caucus; or
                    2..he is complicit

                    given he is the most powerful person why should we say “oh well… others did it, so it doesnt matter and change is so hard it is easier to just wait for slow change instigated by others cos it is too gosh darned hard”.

                    • Pete George

                      I think Key has had partial knowledge and partial complicity but I wouldn’t blame him for everything Slater is done. And I suspect Eade may have overstepped and has subsequently been moved out.

                      I didn’t think “oh well… others did it, so it doesnt matter”.

                      I think the best way of addressing it, for the current and for future Governments, is to insist on better standards in Parliament, and get as much support from MPs and parties to demand better standards. I know some parties and MPs want substantial improvements in political behaviour. I think that’s what is best to be targeted now, promoting what’s best next year rather than scrapping over things done years ago.

                    • Tracey

                      actually the best way is to stop voting for people and parties of all ideologies who lack integrity. we have a cabinet manual which key laughs at. why would anyone follow your proposed standards when they ignore the cabinet manual?

                      you referred backwards in your example to somehow excuse the current holder of power or as a reason not to be too hard on him.

                      if he is partially complicit and partially incompetent why arent you calling for him to resign?

                      remind me who you party voted? i party voted green?

                  • RedLogix

                    The difference here is that the Opposition parties do NOT have access to the covert, secret or surveillance powers of the state. This places the Government of the day in a special position of trust, that they will use those powers for solely for the benefit of the wider national interest – and NOT to serve their own narrow political interests.

                    It is vital to they understand this difference and demonstrate even in the smallest matters that they can be trusted with these powers. And in this case the Prime Ministers office betrayed it.

                    And I’ve seen many people, journalists included, who say it was largely politics as usual

                    If you really believe that then what is your problem with Hagar’s book?

                • weka


                  “There you go again. Playing dirty politics.”

                  Well, weka’s right – you obviously have no idea what “dirty politics” actually is. Either that or you’re pretending to have no idea, which would be even worse.

                  For the record, someone who calls you a liar isn’t playing “dirty politics,” they’re telling you what they think. Now, in the unlikely event that weka were to get someone to go round the local brothels asking whether you’re a customer, or get a cabinet minister to reveal personal info about you, or discuss a way of blackmailing you to get you to stop blogging, or use any other of the tools of Slater’s trade as outlined in Hager’s book, they would indeed be playing “dirty politics.” Calling you a liar – not so much. It’s really not a difficult concept to grasp.

                  Perfect. That’s a linkable summary of exactly what the problem is with PG. Thanks.

                  • Sacha

                    Pete reliably struggles to make sense of what others say, yet that impediment does not deter him from constantly engaging in conversations. Plucky battler.

                    Leaping to the defense of authority is a secondary sin, better described as PR than as activism.

                    I for one wish him a more silent, peaceful new year.

                    • Pete George

                      I don’t think you have much idea what I understand.

                      I see things differently to some here for sure, but it can as easily be claimed that some here don’t understand everything about dirty politics. Or they deliberately try to ignore or shut down inconvenient aspects.

                    • Sacha

                      the world loves a tryer.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Sorry, Sacha, I expect the tiresome lying sycophant will continue to disappoint until banned again.

                    • Pete George

                      Representative of OAB being one of consistently dirtiest players here.

                    • lprent []

                      Nope. Based on your habits of lying by omission, highly selective quoting and holier than thou bullshit on topics you barely know, I would say that you are a far dirtier blogger than OAB. These are all techniques associated with misinformation dissemination rather than robuet debate.

                      OAB expresses opinion, links to facts, and I can’t recall them ever putting a quote out of context. That you don’t like what he says doesn’t make it “dirty”. It just means that you don’t like it and rather than arguing (and having to work for an argu!entire), you prefer smearing. To me that is just lazy.

                      Blogging isn’t about people being nice. It is about having a good look through things and expecting others to disagree with you.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      🙄

                      What PM said.

                    • Tracey

                      PG

                      which political party do you have evidence of that OAB operates on behalf of and to what end? I dont know his real name so have no idea of the answer myself. But to be indulging in dirty politics as you suggest, you must h an insight into the election outcome he was trying to influence in 2014 or for 2017.

                      being rude isnt “dirty politics”, no matter what definition you apply.

                    • Pete George

                      Tracey if you excuse what OAB, weka et al do as “being rude” then you have no understanding of what dirty blogging or dirty politics is.

                    • lprent []

                      I am sure after reading your comments today that you have no frigging idea about either.

                    • Pete George

                      “OAB expresses opinion, links to facts, and I can’t recall them ever putting a quote out of context. ”

                      Very funny. A model contributor?

                      What do you mean “them”?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The purpose of this thread is to provide Petty George with free material for his banal grey desert. I believe it’s pronounced “Yawns”.

                    • weka

                      I thought the purpose of this thread was to give Pete enough rope 😉

                  • karol

                    And in Hager’s “Dirty Politics”, it’s all about the Nats’ 2 track strategy and the politics of diversion and deception.

                    It’s about having Key as the nice smiley front man, with a focus on his personality, photo ops, etc., with just the bare bones of any policy presented to the public once over lightly.

                    Meanwhile, he’s kept at a distance of the underhand attack politics of his staffers, and the likes of Slater and sometimes DPF. Their attacks are most often on relatively trivial matters, and provide a diversion from the Nat government’s true agenda – at least as far as the MSM and general public sees.

              • tc

                No he’s calling you a liar. Pretty straight up and you dont refute the claim by adressig it just muddle it up with some wordplay.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 10.1.3.2.1.2

              See George Hendry’s comment above. It’s quite clear that Petty George knows exactly what dirty politics is.

              • Sacha

                Pete will continue wasting oxygen for as long as he is allowed. Site moderators banning him permanently is our only respite from the beige fog.

                • tc

                  Beige is a valid colour, live and learn. Petey is part of the rich tapestry.

                  • The Al1en

                    I agree with that. Live and learn, or stagnate and fade away.

                    • Sacha

                      beige quicksand.
                      enjoy the struggle

                    • The Al1en

                      No struggle if you use your smarts instead of relying on frustration or anger.

                    • Sacha

                      some creatures sense pollution before others.
                      guess which die?

                    • The Al1en

                      Not the one’s who stand around winging about the injustice of it all I suspect.

                    • weka

                      Struggle or not, quicksand is not somewhere to conduct political discourse or insurgency.

                    • The Al1en

                      Too deep, and I don’t mean the quicksand. 😆

                    • weka

                      I was just following yous three round in the metafours 😛

                    • The Al1en

                      Call a chimp to throw you a vine and make like Tarzan, I say.

                    • rhinocrates

                      A useful guide:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

                      A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
                      1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b): a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high in order to see oneself as exceptional, or too low based on a sense of entitlement; often unaware of own motivations.AND2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b): a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others’ experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain
                      B. Pathological personality traits in the following domain:
                      1.Antagonism, characterized by:
                      a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert; self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others; condescending toward others.b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.
                      C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

                      D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual’s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

                      E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).

                      Reasoning is futile, but therapy might me. Is anyone qualified?

      • George Hendry 10.1.4

        ‘…

        Slater is reasonably well exposed and limited in what he can do…’

        Yes, his powers are a bit limited –

        # PM will text him

        # PM will lie for him

        # PM will apologise only to him

        # PM will have journalist’s house searched for 10 hours and materials confiscated for him while not needing to because PM already knew who Rawshark was…

        Perhaps he is limited in what he can do because he keeps finding the PM has got there first and done it for him 🙂

        • Pete George 10.1.4.1

          “PM will have journalist’s house searched for 10 hours”

          There’s two false claims in that.

          There is no evidence the PM had anything to do with the police action and it would be extraordinary if he did.

          The house wasn’t searched for ten hours. As I understand it between the time police arrived and they left ten hours elapsed, but that wouldn’t have all been time spent searching. Most of the time was likely to be spent communicating between the police, Hager and lawyers.

          • Barfly 10.1.4.1.1

            “The house wasn’t searched for ten hours. As I understand it between the time police arrived and they left ten hours elapsed, but that wouldn’t have all been time spent searching. Most of the time was likely to be spent communicating between the police, Hager and lawyers.”

            you can say that with a straight face?,,,rofl

          • Tracey 10.1.4.1.2

            as you understand it… 5 cops sat for ten hours communicating with lawyers and hager and their bosses. and how long did they spend at slaters office and home.

          • George Hendry 10.1.4.1.3

            Hmm.

            ‘There’s two false claims in that.’

            Grammar fail – there ARE two false claims in that.

            Logic fail #1 – the claims are real, genuine, not false. I know, I made them.

            Logic fail #2 – the claims may be unsoundly based, pure allegation. As pure as the allegation that there ‘is’ no evidence. There might be, not yet found.

            ‘The house wasn’t searched for ten hours.’As I understand it …’

            Allegation, and thanks for admitting it. Not necessarily false, as I believe you believe it to be true, although you DON’T KNOW.

            …’between the time police arrived and they left ten hours elapsed, but that wouldn’t have all been time spent searching.’

            Supposition, as you admit.

            ‘Most of the time was likely to be spent communicating between the police, Hager and lawyers.’

            Again, supposition only, insufficient basis for alleging a false claim prima facie.

            As you clearly have lots of time for this and I need to go and do other stuff, you will probably get the last word in. However :

            # I note you have focused on the most ‘contestable’ of my statements and have given it a good worrying. Well done. And I note gratefully that you have not taken issue with my other statements, particularly the matter of the PM’s public lying, for which there is perhaps now too much evidence for plausible deniability.

            # Elsewhere in this thread you note that ‘dirty is dirty, no matter who does it,’ and I have to agree. As does Mr Hager, or he would not have written ‘Seeds of Distrust’.

            # As no one here has made a statement disagreeing with that proposition, there is conclusive evidence that that is a ‘straw man’ argument, which is either accidental or made in bad faith.

            On the whole, well done. Warning : whatever others may say, I (myself) am Rawsharke, and if you maintain this standard I will consider including you in my camp 🙂

      • Murray Rawshark 10.1.5

        Hacking for transparency and freedom from corrupt government is a great weapon in the arsenal of the people. It will indeed disturb corrupt establishment figures, as you have so wisely noted.

    • weka 10.2

      I kind of like the cartoon too BG, although it strikes me as a pretty mainstream view of the issue. I suspect that 2015 is going to be more hackerfied and that 2014 was just the intro course.

      • Bearded Git 10.2.1

        yeah weka agreed, hence the “kind of”.

        I do hope more comes info out on DP in this parliamentary term even though it didn’t serve the Left well last time. Key needs to be exposed again and again and somehow Ede needs to be pinned down by the MSM-that is their job after all.

  9. Sanctuary 11

    Righto, Happy New Year to the Standardistas!

    A bit of left over Xmas pudding and some soccer in no-mans-land then back into the trenches to smite the awful Boche* of the right in the New Year!

  10. greywarshark 12

    Sad. Due to customer demand the USA encourages people to be armed, while people do not realise this is an example of a failed nation’s disintegrating standards.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/262854/toddler-shoots-mother-in-walmart

    A two year old boy sitting in a shopping cart at a supermarket, very normal, reached into his mother’s handbag and pulled out a gun that was loaded and shot his mother dead.
    While he is young he will grieve for his mother’s absence, and when he is older he will feel terribly guilty, sad and angry at the same time, at being put in such a situation with a loaded gun within his innocent reach.

      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        thanks joe090

        That South Poverty Law Centre what a great effort. But strenth is needed to fight fanaticism and wrong headedness.

        I just looked up the blonde twins Lynx and ? called Prussian Blue. Who sing racially slanted songs. Such good looking girls with mixed up minds.

        What a mish mash of sentimental nothing in the Victory Day song I looked at.
        And when we finally conquer, our people will be free.
        And all across this great land, the bold Truth we shall see.
        So as we march together, to avoid catastrophe, l
        et’s remember always our sacred Destiny….

        And the women, they’ll smile, on Victory Day.
        And the children, they’ll laugh and they’ll sing and they’ll play.
        And the forests will echo our grace, for the brand new dawn of our Race…

        http://www.lyricsmania.com/victory_day_lyrics_prussian_blue.html

        Teach your children well, their father’s hell will slowly go by.
        That is my belief and the only way to go. Not the teaching that these others have been getting.

        Don’t you ever ask them why, if they told you, you would cry,
        So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.
        And you, of tender years,
        Can’t know the fears that your elders grew by,
        And so please help them with your youth,
        They seek the truth before they can die.

        A bonus Blackbird by older Crosby Stills Nash

        Here Comes the Sun

  11. Penny Bright 13

    Let’s see what comes out of the Auckland Council information ‘sausage machine’ on THIS one!

    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    31 December 2014

    Stephen Town
    Auckland Council CEO

    ‘Open Letter’ /OIA request to Auckland Council CEO Stephen Town :
    Please provide the EVIDENCE of ‘efficiency savings’ since the Auckland Council forced amalgamation on 1 November 2010:

    Dear Stephen,

    In the ‘Application for Local Government Reorganisation – PROPOSAL FOR A UNITARY AUTHORITY WITH LOCAL BOARDS FOR THE WELLINGTON REGION’ – it is stated on page 47:

    “The Auckland Council experience and overseas examples strongly suggest that there should be a reasonable expectation of efficiency savings from the creation of a combined Wellington Council.

    Opportunities would likely come from the following areas:

    * Common administrative and support functions (human resources, procurement, ICT, finance, property management, corporate and executive services)

    * Common data management systems and processes

    * Common regulatory functions, activities and processes (building consents, resource consents, liquor licensing, dog permits, and other permits and licensing)

    * Streamlined planning processes for resource management, transport planning as well as plans required under the Local Government Act

    * Single ownership of assets and a comprehensive asset management approach

    * Services that are delivered at both a regional and local level (economic development and tourism marketing)

    * Combined contract for services, for example rubbish collection and road management.

    ….”

    A) Please provide the EVIDENCE which confirms in each of the above-mentioned categories the ACTUAL ‘savings’ (if any) which have been made, by comparing the ACTUAL costs for each category, and ‘sub’category, of the 8 previous Councils in the Auckland region in the last ‘rating year’ prior to the forced Auckland Council amalgamation on 1 November 2010.

    B) Please provide the information which confirms the ‘reorganisational’ costs of the Auckland Council forced amalgamation on 1 November 2010, in each of the above-mentioned categories, including all costs relating and pertaining to the establishment and operational costs of the Auckland Transition Agency (ATA), particularly the costs of appointed ATA members and staff.

    C) Please provide the information which confirms the costs of establishing, and/or extending the roles of the following 7 ‘substantive’ Auckland Council Controlled Organisations (CCOs), in each of the above-mentioned categories.

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/AboutCouncil/representativesbodies/CCO/Pages/Home.aspx

    Auckland Council Investments Limited
    Auckland Council Property Limited
    Auckland Tourism, Events and Economic Development Limited
    Auckland Transport
    Auckland Waterfront Development Agency Limited
    Regional Facilities Auckland
    Watercare Services Limited

    Yours sincerely,

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption whistle-blower’

    • George Hendry 13.1

      Go Penny !!! 🙂 🙂

    • Ad 13.2

      Alternatively you could do it yourself.
      Just add up the activity categories of the previous Council LTPs and compare with the Auckland Council LTP, with a pro rata for population growth.

      They are all in hard copy in public libraries.
      Bring your own calculator.
      All the CE will do is bill you anyway so you may as well do it yourself.

      If you want to generate a “told you it wasn’t worth it” story, don’t bother.
      History has been written by its victors. There’s nothing you can do to change that.

      • RedLogix 13.2.1

        There are two very significant differences between the Auckland and Wellington City cases:

        1. Most importantly – the Wellington case has Rodney Hide nowhere near it.

        2. From the outset the supporters of the Wellington Super City recognised the importance of retaining a second, meaningful local level of governance. The whole process has been geared around exploring the various options around achieving that.

        Of course the existing pack of local turkeys – with the notable exception of Porirua – have dug their toes in and done everything possible to NOT cooperate. And in doing so have weakened their positions and disadvantaged themselves.

        Along the way there have been blatant lies and deceptions put about. Some time back I attended a Wairarapa meeting where the local grandees made such fools of themselves in public they actually managed to turn a significant portion of an otherwise sympathetic crowd off.

        Providing the level of asset management, skills, budgets and infrastructure to run decent modern cities and regions is quite simply beyond the scope of your average podunk council – no matter how well meaning and hard working it’s staff are. It’s actually unfair to ask it of them.

        Yes if amalgamations are done clumsily there is the potential to lose the intimacy and accountability of a local council. That’s certainly happened in Auckland and that was mostly Hides bloody fault. But the Wellington proposal was always came from different motivations (largely from GW Regional Council leadership) has been focused around avoiding these mistakes from the outset.

  12. How’s this for a New Year Revolution?

    The power of prediction.

    The world economy hasn’t recovered from 2008 recession because there is still too much surplus capital without prospects of producing profits.

    Without productive growth you cannot pay off debt.

    The Long Depression will continue.

    More bubbles and more recessions.

    Will it kick off in Greece when Syriza becomes the government?

    Michael Roberts on the likelihood of a major global slump and a book plug ‘Essays on Inequality’.

    http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2014/12/30/predictions-for-2015/

  13. Philip Ferguson 15

    The gigging musician I most like and admire at present is probably Seth Lakeman, the prodigiously-talented youngest of the three wonderfully-talented Lakeman brothers.

    I’ve finally gotten round to writing a piece about his two most recent solo albums, Tales from the Barrelhouse and Word of Mouth.

    I guess Seth descibes himself as a folk musician or as a ‘wooden instrument musician’, part of what in Britain has been dubbed ‘nu folk’. This is a rather muscular, sinewy type of folk, with a partially rock sensibility. I can imagine hard rock bands doing some of Seth’s songs quite comfortably.

    Anyway, while you’re enjoying time out during the Xmas-New Year break you might take a look at the review and follow up some of the music links on it.

    Seth’s Live at the Minack Theatre DVD, recorded at the stunning Minack down in Cornwall near Land’s End, is magnificent – probably my all-time favourite music DVD, just beating out Cream’s 1968 Royal Albert Hall concert and the Band’s The Last Waltz.

    Anyway, my review is here: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/12/30/seth-lakemans-workers-lives-review-of-tales-from-the-barrelhouse-and-word-of-mouth/

    Phil

  14. McFlock 16

    Lol
    ure takes a break, pgtips takes up the “whacko of the day” mantle.

    • Tracey 16.1

      it is the apparent contradictions which i struggle with. when they are presented with them they get defensive and diversive.

      • It’s too consistent to be ignorance or accident, and the way it derails entire forums is deliberate.

        • Ad 16.1.1.1

          I noted two of your posts were top ten of the year.

          Hope TS can continue to have your talented and clearly resonating contributions in 2015 while you continue to build elsewhere.

          • Pete George 16.1.1.1.1

            The building elsewhere may not be at On The Left.

            @stephanierodgrs

            It’s been a difficult day, but just so you know: I’m officially stepping down as co-editor of On The Left.

            My personal Twitter drama should not be used to pressure bloggers about where they can write. This is the easiest solution to that.

            [Stephanie: Deleted your insults. I doubt you have any idea what has happened over the past two days on Twitter, but it doesn’t matter because you’re just taking a cheap shot based on an upsetting experience for many people. Do not attack Standard authors in this way.]

            • Ecosse_Maidy 16.1.1.1.1.1

              Cant you not just Wish Everyone a Happy New Year PG??
              You know even 100 years ago the troops that were trying to kill each other managed to call a truce..play a bit of football and exchange gifts.Yet you seem to love perpetual aggro, how about it Pete & Ego….A Wee Truce? Wish us what we wish you, health, happiness, peace? Ermm No?Oh silly me for a moment i thought I was reasoning with a rational human being.
              Ok Sod it Fook You! .I just wonder how Mrs George & The Wee Georges put up with him.

      • Ad 16.1.2

        “Slippery Slope” arguments (x was bad, y had similar elements but not as bad, z was similar to both therefore all were bad therefore theres no distinction really so stop complaining) …
        aren’t worth engaging with as they have no principle or value embedded to hold to or build.

        Hold them to principle, and all that is solid to them melts into air.

    • Sacha 16.2

      fricking tag-team of disordered thinking

    • The Al1en 16.3

      He didn’t have a very good day yesterday, that much is true.
      Some of his posts were just way out there and total whack-a-doodle stuff.
      Worst of all is the hypocrisy, second the belligerent ignorance.

      Going on at people for not answering his questions, calling mcflock rightwing, being challenged to prove how so, and then declining to provide the answer.
      If it wasn’t so funny it’d be quite sad. I was embarrassed for him, so that’s saying something.

      I do hope he ups his game from just launching into tirades, rants and insults.
      Any knob polisher can do that.

      • George Hendry 16.3.1

        Greetings those left At The End Of The Day 🙂

        I like to think that by taking this on we are helping Mr Hager with his work, through having to raise our games to nearer his level.

        Trolls are like viruses that test our immune system. If one day we get raided ourselves it might help to know our defence that bit more thoroughly than we would do just for normal purposes of understanding.

        Cheers all.

  15. Te Reo Putake 17

    I have a terrific idea for a film. I think I’ll call it Sharkturbo. Thanks, Stuff.

    “It was likely that the shark was attracted into the harbour by the large amounts of snapper in the area at the moment, Duffy said, adding that the struggling fish being caught by the group on Monday would have drawn the shark to their boat. It was possible that the shark had moved on since the encounter earlier this week but it was difficult to tell, he said.

    Great white sharks could reach speeds of 112 kilometres an hour and it could be long gone by now, Duffy said.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/64572915/great-white-shark-hooked-in-aucklands-waitemata-harbour

    • Te Reo Putake 17.1

      Whew! It turns out that great whites don’t go 112 kph. According to the updated stuff article they now go “at least 45 kilometres an hour”. Yep, the interns are running the msm for the next four days.

  16. Rosie 18

    Is it safe to come out? Has the PG storm blown over? Yes? Good.

    Well, 2014 can just fu*k right off. (With apologies for the non festive sentiment). What a year eh?! We’re still here with the natz in charge.
    May 2015 bring a renewed sense of hope, determination and a good collective effort at unity and focus on the Left.

    And may you, comrades, find happiness, health and a content sense of well being. For those who are struggling, and we all know that in Aotearoa, that’s too many, may you find your circumstances change and life become more fulfilling. Go well in 2015 🙂

    • greywarshark 18.1

      @ Rosie
      It was such a disappointment for you all in your electorate to see the votes going the other way. It should have been different. We should all give you a toast on January 1 because you stuck to the task of going for a new party in a new year. Not your fault that you weren’t successful.

      It has been good to read you Rosie and hope that will be so in 2015. Cheers ^~^

      • Rosie 18.1.1

        Cheers Warbs. Yes, it should have been different. Lots of people, both Labour party aligned and non party aligned worked really hard to bring a major change in Ohariu. Our bitter disappointment here was was held within a microcosm of the countrywide disappointment, but it has taken a long time to get over it, locally and nationally.

        I really felt for the Scots too, their chance at independence lost, on the same weekend, we lost our chance at change. Their stakes of course, were that much higher than ours but at least we, if we work hard enough, can change our fortunes, three years from now. So compared to the Scots, our task, from now on is straight forward.

        All the best to you Warbs. I always enjoy your thoughtful posts. 🙂

        • greywarshark 18.1.1.1

          Thanks Rosie
          And about the Scots, my impression is that they can have another go so Britain had better pull their socks up or it mightn’t be as great as it thinks it is. I think I read a warning about another ref. but if someone knows different then please say.

  17. Murray Rawshark 19

    I’m happy to be here to see the New Year and give thanks to the left wing Australians who built a decent health system. Those in charge today build nothing – they are lunatics of destruction. The Labor and Labour parties are different – they are the justifiers of destruction.

    Happy New Year to most of you.

    • tc 19.1

      Dunno, hawke keating, Clark, Lange, Whitlam dwarf the likes of Rudd, Gillard, (insert Nz labour pm here) in terms of what can and was done given the game today.

      The deck is very stacked against any significant endemic change without massive electoral shift.

      • Murray Rawshark 19.1.1

        The Lange/Douglas ACT regime changed the game to what it is today. Hawke and Keating would have been right at home in Gillard’s government. Kirk was the last Labour PM who actually did much for the people with need. Lange’s government did heaps for people with greed.

  18. Penny Bright 20

    Fascinating that the ‘Local Government Commission – Draft Proposal for Reorganisation of Local Government in Wellington Volume 1 Public report: Summary Document December 2014′, states: (page 9)

    “The current system of local government

    2.11 Together the councils of Wellington Region have:

    * financial assets valued at $563 million (30 June 2013)

    * investment in physical assets valued at $12.8 billion (30 June 2013)

    * debt totalling $785 million (30 June 2013)

    * forecast debt totalling $1,336 million (by 30 June 2022)

    * eight mayors, ninety-six councillors (including the regional council chair),
    and 57 community board members

    * full-time equivalent staff totalling 3,256 (April 2014)

    * 321 plans currently produced under the Resource Management Act 1991,
    Local Government Act 2002, Land Transport Management Act and
    Reserves Act.

    2.12 Together the councils of Wellington Region pay:

    * elected member remuneration (including mayors/chair) of $5.3 million per
    annum (2012/13)

    * chief executive officer remuneration of $2.6 million per annum (2012/13)

    * audit fees for the audit of the 2012 – 13 annual reports of $1.36 million

    * audit fees for the audit of the 2012 – 22 long-term plans of $0.863 million

    …………”

    However – no mention whatsoever, about the costs of Council Controlled Organisations (CCOs) in the Wellington region, how much for their Boards, CEOs, Executive Staff, non-executive staff etc?

    No mention whatsoever about the number of services throughout the Wellington region, which are contracted-out to the private sector, and how much citizens and ratepayers’ public monies are spent on ‘contract management’, and if (as in Auckland) , such ‘contract management’ is mainly carried out by private sector consultants?

    Having now read the following key documents which pertain to this Wellington ‘Supercity’ proposal:

    1) ‘Wellington Region Local Government Review Panel’ October 2012

    (Rt Hon. Sir Geoffrey Palmer SC (Chair), Sue Driver, Sir Wira Gardiner, Bryan Jackon

    2) ‘Realising the potential of the Wellington region Conclusions of the joint Working Party on Local Government Reform 8/3/2013

    3) ‘Application for Local Government Reorganisation Proposal for a Unitary Authority with Local Boards for the Wellington Region’

    4) ‘Local Government Commission – Draft Proposal for Reorganisation of Local Government in Wellington Volume 1 Public Report: Summary document December 2014’

    I’m unhappy to report that I have seen NO attempt – in any of the above-mentioned reports – to provide any current factual analysis of the unfortunate Auckland Council enforced amalgamation, before attempting to spread what in my considered opinion has been an absolute disaster on the majority of citizens and ratepayers in the Auckland region.

    There has also been NO attempt in any of the above-mentioned reports to take any form of ‘snap shot’ of current services provided across the Wellington region, in order to create some form of factual DATUM upon which a genuine ‘cost-benefit analysis can be based.

    This is the format which I suggested, and for which I provided a template for the Royal Commissioners to use, in order to carry out such an exercise in Auckland.

    STEP ONE:

    A) List down the page, ALL possible Council services which are provided across the Wellington region, alphabetically, and give each Council service its own unique number.

    B) List across the page the abbreviations for each Council in the Wellington region:

    WRC (Wellington Regional Council), WCC (Wellington City Council), PCC ( Porirua City Council), KDC (Kapiti District Council),
    HCC (Hutt City Council), UHCC (Upper Hutt City Council), SWDC (South Wairarapa District Council), CDC (Carterton District Council), MDC (Masterton District Council)

    Then, fill in the following information, for each service in each Council area, the following:

    N/A (Not applicable) – if the Council doesn’t provide that particular service.

    I/H ‘In-House’ – if the Council directly provides that service.

    CCO ‘Council-Controlled-Organisation’ – if that’s how the Council provides that service

    C/Out ‘Contracted Out’ – if this Council service is provided by the private sector

    That would act as a ‘MASTER INDEX’ – which would show at a glance – the overall FACTUAL picture of services currently provided by Councils in the Wellington region.

    STEP TWO

    For each individual, uniquely numbered Council service, then provide the following information:

    List down the page each Council

    WRC
    WCC
    PCC
    KDC
    HCC
    UHCC
    SWDC
    CDC
    MDC

    Then across the page list the key information you want for each Council service.

    eg Dog Control N/A , I/H, CCO, C/Out

    Cost – for the last rating year 2013-2014

    Scope – a brief description of the work covered by ‘Dog Control’ in that Council area (if they cover that work)

    Number of staff employed

    Number of contractors employed

    Vehicles

    Offices

    Pounds

    (sort of thing)

    __________________________________________________________________________________________

    Any thoughtful folk got any feedback on how YOU would establish such ‘devilish details’ in order to help build a FACTUAL DATUM for ‘cost-effectiveness’ / ‘cost-efficiencies’?

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

    ‘Seeking TRUTH for FACTS’ – as it were 🙂

    [lprent: link damn it. ]

  19. Just had my 1000th play on soundcloud.
    Nothing special in the big scheme of things, x10 and I’d have something, but still, milestones and all that.

    Yay me 😉

  20. Clemgeopin 22

    A very happy,prosperous and pleasant year for each one of you.

    Hope 2015 will be a more fruitful happier year for all the good progressive people and the great progressive parties, Labour, the Greens and Mana.

    Also hope there will be world peace and help to the poor in New Zealand and all around the world.

    Good night and good morning!

  21. Instauration 23

    Aussie vote on the UNSC Draft Resolution on Palestine…
    So what do we think of our ANZAC brothers ?
    Shame on the majority of Aussie voters !
    Time for them to take responsibility and accountability for the actions of their Government.
    Hey Murray – what are we going to do from Today ? Perisist with the published MFAT doctrine of “anything that progresses a two state solution” ?? and embrace the UNSC opportunity ? – hope those “New World” Christmas Eve boxed chocolates achieved all you intended – we with respect – trust.

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