Police neutrality

Written By: - Date published: 8:50 am, December 5th, 2014 - 113 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, accountability, david parker, Dirty Politics, police - Tags: , , , ,

This year we have seen proof of the SIS used for political purposes. How many other organs of the state have been politicised? Two days ago David Parker raised the issue in Parliament. The specific context was questions about the SFO investigation where Parker made allegations (under Parliamentary privilege), a brief summary here:

Calls for police to further investigate Hager claims

He [Parker] has used Parliamentary Privilege to name Mark Hotchin as a man alleged to have paid Cameron Slater and PR man Carrick Graham to run a smear campaign against the Serious Fraud Office while he was being investigated over his finance company Hanover Finance.

“We know that thousands of dollars were being paid to Cameron Slater – Whaleoil – and Carrick Graham, and that they were busy trying to undermine the Serious Fraud Office. What we don’t know is whether that crossed the line.”

From this context Parker moves on to question the role of the police in dirty politics more generally. Here are extracts from Parker’s address in Parliament:

There remains much to be investigated arising from the Nicky Hager book. The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security showed last week the politicisation of the SIS by the head of the SIS and the Prime Minister’s own staff in his office. What was written off by the Prime Minister as a left-wing conspiracy during the election was proven to be true: underhand tactics being used by the Prime Minister and the SIS.

National was cynical enough on the day of the release of that report to drop two others including the report by Justice Chisholm into Judith Collins. … The report did not exonerate Judith Collins in respect of those other matters and the report does not exonerate anyone else in respect of what may have been happening in respect of the undermining of the Serious Fraud Office.

I have had two people make worrying allegations to me. … I cannot name either of those sources and I cannot prove those allegations to be true. They are both hearsay allegations to me but these allegations must be investigated.

We have seen in respect of the SIS matters that there was fire behind the smoke and in respect of these allegations we know that thousands of dollars were presumably being paid by Hotchin to Carrick Graham and Slater and Cathy Odgers in respect of their efforts to undermine the Serious Fraud Office.

What we do not know is whether those actions were criminal and whether there was a criminal conspiracy. I made a complaint to the police over 2 months ago in respect of that. The only information I have had back other than to inquire whether I had more evidence was a line in the Chisholm report to say that the allegations in respect of Judith Collins were not being looked to any further, but it looks like no further actions are being inquired into.

These are serious allegations. They must be looked seriously at by the authorities. We have seen the politicisation of the SIS.

We must make sure that the police have not been politicised. They were happy enough to inquire into the teapot tapes, to cooperate with the Prime Minister to deem Mr Ambrose guilty despite the fact that he had two arguable defences, and yet we do not have the police looking at these most serious allegations as to whether the other allegations in the Hager book are true.

Indeed, Mr Hager—and if it were not for his efforts none of the SIS stuff would have come out and none of this other stuff would have been investigated—is the one who is being raided. He is the one who has suffered search warrants and yet neither Mr Slater, Ms Odgers, Mr Hotchin, nor the others like Carrick Graham seem to have been investigated by the police, and I do not think that is good enough.

Well, that’s the elephant in the room isn’t it, and Parker has put it out there. Why are investigations into those who embarrass John Key expedited, while investigations into potentially embarrassing topics and persons languish?

113 comments on “Police neutrality”

  1. Lanthanide 1

    As long as Parker doesn’t go on to derail any progress Labour is making, like Shane Jones did after his fall-from-grace.

    • Tracey 1.1

      Carrick graham has got off VERY lightly from the book and in the media

      • Manuka AOR 1.1.1

        “Carrick graham has got off VERY lightly from the book and in the media”

        It’s incredible that DP is describing actual real life events rather than, eg, narrating some fictional crime series on tv.

    • Manuka AOR 2.1

      Absolutely. And as Shadow Attorney Gen, this is squarely in his Dept.

      Finally someone is taking this on and starting to deal with it.

    • Tom Gould 2.2

      Indeed, the media response was to attack Parker for “hiding” behind Parliamentary privilege and for having no “evidence” rather than report the substance of the issue. Their immediate response was to protect the Police, the Tories, and Slater and Graham and Odgers, and Hotchin – to the extend of attacking Parker for ‘mispronouncing’ his name? No wonder it’s a free-for-all for these venal Tories and their cronies.

      • RedLogix 2.2.1

        FFS – these thinly educated reporters have no idea that this is exactly why Parliamentary Privilege exists!

      • whateva next? 2.2.2

        Whaleoil made much of Nicky getting wrong gender for a person in “Dirty Politics”…and this was to back up his claim that it was ALL rubbish, so usual response to isolate a small irrelevant detail, and ignore the substance.
        Same with IGIS report, when Phil spoke with reporters the night before (what’s new, and after the time he’s waited, can understand why), again entire focus on a small irrelevant detail, to distract from the substance of report.
        Crosby/Textor re having to work overtime at the moment.

  2. les 3

    And of course with wider powers introduced ,if these services’ have been compromised it will get worse.

  3. coaster 4

    If it looks like a fish and smells like a fish its probably a fish.

    Are we still the least corrupt country in the world?

  4. Puckish Rogue 5

    “I have had two people make worrying allegations to me. … I cannot name either of those sources and I cannot prove those allegations to be true. They are both hearsay allegations to me but these allegations must be investigated.”

    Won’t name the people, can’t prove the allegations and both are hearsay allegations but they must be investigated

    Is this the start of Labour MPs trying to sabotage Little?

    • adam 5.1

      Put down the p pipe PR, you spin is sounding – paranoid and delusional.

      • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1

        Sure because Labour MPs have never, ever sabotaged their leaders before

        • framu 5.1.1.1

          just like youve never, ever made the same comment across multiple threads that have little to do with the topic.

          pretty sure you gave the same question/reply as this just yesterday

          did you hear why parker used parliamentary privilege in this case?

          • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1.1.1

            Sure however its still pretty flimsey and considering Labours very recent history of in-fighting maybe Parkers trying to take some attention away from Little

            • mac1 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Ah, at last your true thinking……. ‘maybe’……… so, no evidence, just your ‘sense’, or ‘feeling’ or ‘thought’?

              We’ll put that on Planet Key, then?

              • Puckish Rogue

                Or Parkers I guess:

                “I cannot name either of those sources and I cannot prove those allegations to be true. They are both hearsay allegations to me but these allegations must be investigated.”

                • mac1

                  So, let’s investigate these allegations. That is what Parker is saying, and he wants the truth, factually and correctly.

                  Whereas you, Puckish Rogue, make ‘maybe’ statements and don’t supply any evidence for your allegations that Parker is attacking his leader.

                  There is a difference.

                • framu

                  followed by his publicly stated reason for using privilege

                  your running a very weak argument PR – a weak repeat argument. Feel free to add some heft to it anytime your ready

            • Wonderpup 5.1.1.1.1.2

              Or, maybe Parker was given the job of raising this issue by Caucus, directed by Little. Maybe it is great teamwork, using the respected Parker to raise this.

            • framu 5.1.1.1.1.3

              “Sure however its still pretty flimsey”

              so why do you keep doing it?

            • KJS0ne 5.1.1.1.1.4

              Grasping at straws, desperately.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1.1.2

          Gee there was Shipley against Bolger, there was Williamson against English ( still) there was That guy from Rakaia against Brash.

          If you go back to Muldoon , its easier to look at who HE undermined.

    • Manuka AOR 5.2

      P.R: “Is this the start..”

      This is the start of the new TEAM LABOUR – The start of a whole new era in politics.

      The old order is crumbling, the house of cards is falling.

      • Puckish Rogue 5.2.1

        Sure but you’ll excuse me if I wait for proof first before I start to believe since the amount of game changers that were announced and came to nought makes me take these proclamations with a large grain of salt

        • mac1 5.2.1.1

          ‘You’ll excuse me if I wait for proof first.”

          How many times do you think readers on this thread have thought that on this blog about your statements, Puckish Rogue?

          Watch out for the large grain of salt, though. It also can stick in the craw.

        • Tracey 5.2.1.2

          Why would anyone need you to believe? Your nose is so far down the back of the PMs trousers i can understand why you cant work out whose arse is making the smell.

    • minarch 5.3

      You ever read any Sun Tzu Puckered Rouge ?

      • Puckish Rogue 5.3.1

        Some of it, haven’t memorized it if thats what you’re asking however its starting to look like Littles fighting multiple battles

        1. Against the Greens and Winston for leader of the opposition but Russel Normans imploding and Winstons about to go into hibernation so it shouldn’t be that difficult for Little to win

        2. Against his own caucus/Robertson (possibly)

        3. Against National

        and its never a good idea fighting on multiple fronts

        • felix 5.3.1.1

          Good thing the first two are just your fantasies then.

          Seriously, if you insist on commenting here after being banned for 3 years, could you at least make an effort?

          • Puckish Rogue 5.3.1.1.1

            Are you seriously suggesting that after the amount of back stabbing thats gone on in Labours recent history that its now suddenly stopped especially considering most of the people involved are still hanging around?

            • felix 5.3.1.1.1.1

              I’m suggesting 3 thing:

              1. I suggest that obvious trool is obvious.

              2. I suggest that nothing you write is ever worth taking at face value, as you only come here to disrupt, derail and dissemble .

              3. I suggest that you seem to get more agitated on threads about people’s relationships with Slater.

              • Puckish Rogue

                You can suggest all you like however you’re wrong on all three counts

              • The lost sheep

                “I suggest that nothing you write is ever worth taking at face value, as you only come here to disrupt, derail and dissemble .”

                But you all keep engaging with him?

                Just like you all hate JK but can’t stop talking about him?

                • Tracey

                  all hate john key

                  i dknt hate john key, so that makes you wrong

                  you need to get over yourself and maybe post on stuff that isnt just saying stop focusing on key, something really sanctimonious so you arent out of your comfort zone.

                • CATMAN

                  Just like you think we’re all stupid but you keep coming here?

                • Stuart Munro

                  We don’t hate John Key – we’re happy to rehabilitate him once he’s done his time for theft of public assets. 500 lifetimes should about cover the $15 billion.

              • Paul

                i reckon same persona as c73

                • Tracey

                  i think conjecture about peoples identities is a no_no in the rules?

                  • CATMAN

                    He’s not speculating about a pseudonym’s identity though, just comparing two pseudonyms and finding them identical in all but name.

                    Besides, they’re soooo obviously the same person it’d be weird if no-one said anything about it.

              • Paul

                i reckon same persona as c73

            • Tracey 5.3.1.1.1.2

              you mean like you believed it stopped in national after english and brash were bladed and key arrived?

            • Treetop 5.3.1.1.1.3

              The CEO’s of the GCSB and SIS since the 2008 election is mounting up. Not sure how long Kitteridge will last. For all I know Kitteridge may have told Key that she was out, were Key to continue to be the SIS minister.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 5.3.2

        Shouldnt that be Suckered pogue!

        There are many meanings but the best is “”People Of Good Use Elsewhere.”

    • Tracey 5.4

      And yet you love baseless unproven crap when it flows from the mouth of the PM.

      I think i shall start calling you glad wrap.

    • Andrea 5.5

      Puckish Rogue: your ‘sabotage’ rabbit went thataway.

      And: we’re talking about David Parker ( “I cannot name either of those sources and I cannot prove those allegations to be true. They are both hearsay allegations to me but these allegations must be investigated.”) – not Paula Bennett.

  5. Colonial Rawshark 6

    Gutsy speech by Parker – he points to issues at the heart of the culture which allows a surveillance and security state to flourish.

    • Skinny 6.1

      Exactly, and flourish they will if unchecked. Parker is sound coming back like this. I enjoyed a little walk with him a few weeks back, no doubting he is a smart guy.

    • Chooky 6.2

      CR +100…Go Parker and Labour Party on this issue!

      ….the Greens have already made complaints with the police about Nact and their spinners ‘Dirty Politics’ and corruption

    • Tracey 6.3

      And some nerves are being hit when the right pounces to spread their “undermining the leader” meme

  6. fambo 7

    I love Lauda Finem – New Zealand’s pre-eminent website dealing with police and judiciary corruption and written in a great contemporary “hard boiled” style that Raymond Chandler or Dashiell Hammett would be proud of.

    http://laudafinem.com/

  7. Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 8

    Hager – rhymes with lager.

  8. Manuka AOR 9

    Thank you David Parker for raising this! And thanks Anthony for bringing it onto TS.

    It is clear, basic, and essential that we start looking at this – It is just the beginning:
    “Indeed, Mr Hager—and if it were not for his efforts none of the SIS stuff would have come out and none of this other stuff would have been investigated—is the one who is being raided. He is the one who has suffered search warrants and yet neither Mr Slater, Ms Odgers, Mr Hotchin, nor the others like Carrick Graham seem to have been investigated by the police, and I do not think that is good enough.”

    • Chooky 9.1

      +100…where is the msm on this?!

      ..it is a major scandal pointing at corruption of the State…it must have been going on for quite some time and it is only beginning to leak out now

      ….a Commission of Inquiry is required

      …it is a disgrace that the whistle blower on this corruption, Nicky Hager, has had his family privacy and house violated , his possessions seized and is still being persecuted…

      How is Hager’s case progressing?….How much more legal support money does he need?…What other support does he need?…does it need to go to the UN?

  9. Iron Sky 10

    Manuka, yes good on you for thanking David Parker, he needs to disturb the Natural (National) order of things:

    NZ is turning into a train wreck:

    So with new surveillance powers I am really going to trust the Nanny Nats to do the right thing and keep me safe and warm at night?

    The Nats remind me of Mason in the Movie Snowpiercer:

    Snowpiercer (2013):

    Mason (aka the Nats):
    “Order is the barrier that holds back the flood of death. We must all of us on this train of life remain in our allotted station. We must each of us occupy our preordained particular position.

    Would you wear a shoe on your head? Of course you wouldn’t wear a shoe on your head. A shoe doesn’t belong on your head. A shoe belongs on your foot. A hat belongs on your head. I am a hat. You are a shoe. I belong on the head. You belong on the foot. Yes? So it is.

    In the beginning, order was proscribed by your ticket: First Class, Economy, and freeloaders like you.

    Eternal order is prescribed by the sacred engine: all things flow from the sacred engine, all things in their place, all passengers in their section, all water flowing. all heat rising, pays homage to the sacred engine, in its own particular preordained position. So it is.

    Now, as in the beginning, I belong to the front. You belong to the tail. When the foot seeks the place of the head, the sacred line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place.

    Be a shoe.”

    • Manuka AOR 10.1

      “Be a shoe.”

      Heh 🙂 Nats can keep their subservient little Guccis – I like boots! Gumboots, working boots, tramping boots, farm or town boots – something to keep moving ahead in all weather, and keep out the mud and the rain.

      Then, maybe the left could train up on kick boxing.

  10. lprent 11

    I have had a half written post in my head at for the last couple of weeks on exactly this topic. “Our political police force”

    I think that I will probably still write it because of exactly the same reasons that David Parker had to raise it in the house. The discrepancy about the complaints that the police choose to seriously investigate and what they accept but ignore for years appears to be more motivated by political and familial considerations than anything else that is evident to me.

    I can only conclude that they the police hierarchy are more worried about their yearly budgets from the government than they are with the responsibilities and duties that are given to them by the crown. Consequently they are more friendly and lenient with the government’s friends than they should be and appear to deliberately target the government’s enemies with their full powers. That is unacceptable to a public that expects the police to be neutral.

    That the separation of the police (and probably the armed forces based on their persecution of Jon Stephenson) from direct government control is fraying has been evident for decades.

    It appears to be that the only way to correct it is to restructure and separate the consolidated powers that the police currently hold.

    The police probably should have the ability to charge on anything apart from the summary offenses act removed from them and given to a prosecutors office to separate their two main powers. They are a damn sight better at investigating than they are at deciding if an offense is legally serious enough. That probably needs to be put in the hands of legal practitioners.

    It also appears to me time that the police were removed from the loose oversight of the IPCA (who the police appear to just ignore) and put in the hands of a judicial body with some real funding and an ability to investigate and charge individual police commanders for the actions of their staff. That appears to be something that the police hierarchy are reluctant to do.

    • Manuka AOR 11.1

      Yes, it should be a headline post LP. It’s already wrote 🙂 There needs to be more discussion on this, now and in the future.

      Davis is the shadow Police Minister, but I doubt he’ll speak up as David P has done. Yet he should be in there loudly backing up DP. right now! Davis is the one question mark that I have in the new ministerial line-up. He had some electoral funding support from the Nats, I believe, so will not be particularly motivated to investigate and clean up Nat mess. Mahuta might have done a better job in that role, or someone else who won’t pull their punches. (imo)

      • Karen 11.1.1

        Manuka AOR – A few high profile Nats (Hooton was one) did try to donate to the Kelvin Davis electoral campaign as part of an attempt to create more divisions in Labour, but Kelvin refused to accept it. He sent the money to charity – Women’s Refuge from memory. I don’t believe he will be holding back from criticizing the National Party, but he is new in this position.

        Exposing the partisan behaviour by the police is something the Labour and Green Parties should both be highlighting. Perhaps they could work together on this?

        • Manuka AOR 11.1.1.1

          @Karen – Re the donations – okay, Thanks for the info/ update.

          We’ll see how he goes, then.

    • Anne 11.2

      Police practices have been steadily deteriorating for years and the tipping point into corruption is not far away. Some might say it’s already here. It seems to me they struggle with criminal concepts beyond the daily grind of physical crimes such as murder, theft, arson, traffic accidents and tragedies. They seem so immersed in the culture of bad boys/girls versus good boys/girls (themselves) they can’t see beyond their faulty, black/white vision of the world. Many lack healthy grey cells in their upper storeys, and it shows in their partisan handling of criminal or unlawful activity within the political arena.

      I hope David Parker conducts a thorough investigation. Looks like people are already furnishing him with information.

      • Tracey 11.2.1

        I heard the assistant commissioner (i think) talking about the speed limit limitations this week. At one point he referred to something being the “business” we are in.

        The police, like teachers, like hospitals, like ACC are not in the business of anything. Sure they need to manage budgets but first and foremost they are involved in a social contract with the people of NZ?

        • les 11.2.1.1

          are the Police public servants…or govt servants?

          • Chooky 11.2.1.1.1

            When the talk is about ‘the Police’ …we should distinguish between rank and file police who are often very good, very intelligent people with a social work and public good sympathy and many of whom are Labour/Left supporters…. and the politicised leaders of the Police who are leaned on politically and make political decisions, which will unfortunately affect the practice of those below

            • lprent 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Agreed. Although there do appear to be pretty rogue specialist units in the police that appear to concentrate the worst parts, and some stations that seem to have pretty rank culture.

              • Chooky

                yes I have no illusions about the bad elements…just want to defend the good ones who often have a lot of good will and a very difficult job

                • Anne

                  Yes, there are good cops too Chooky but the only time I have ever needed the police’s help to solve a case of criminal conduct towards me they did nothing. Why? I suspect the main cause was because there was a political element to the story, and there were also two govt. agencies who became involved in the case. I ended up doing my own investigation and discovered the identities of the two main perpetrators. Took me several years and I was too scared to go back to the police with my findings because of the way they previously treated me.

                  • Chooky

                    yes well i guess like the rest of us there will always be the police officer who goes doggedly after the truth and for the victim and to hell with popularity…and then there are the ambitious ones or lazy ones who will cynically do what is most politically expedient or easy for themselves …and then the bad corrupt thug ones …luckily i have met the good ones thus far …

                    ( but i saw a few things during the Springbok Tour and I am aware some people have not had good experiences, to say the least eg Louise Nicholas)

                    ….actually I think I am more suspicious of the spy agencies because they are hidden…and what they do is hidden…the police just seem like the rest of us

        • vto 11.2.1.2

          I agree Tracey (11.2.1) that the Police are absolutely not a business in any sense of the word.

          That they think they are is a sure sign of a flawed culture and a flawed understanding of their place in society.

          It also shows up in this article about policing of rural stock thefts in Taranaki http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/63849626/Farmers-angry-as-stock-rustling-grows where the head of Taranaki coppers says …”Like any businessman, he had budgets to meet”

          … sheesh, the cops are completely on the wrong page.

          Policing is not a business. Wake up coppers.

          • BassGuy 11.2.1.2.1

            I recommend watching the three part BBC documentary “The Trap.” I watched it a while ago, can’t remember where, but it does a good job of explaining why people think they are in a business even though they’re in a public service role.

            The short version of it is that they think they’re in a business because their efficiencies are all graded by quantifiable elements, so their managers can decide if they’re meeting targets or not.

            Well worth a watch, but afterwards you may want to go for a walk to calm down a little.

    • music4menz 11.3

      ‘That the separation of the police… from direct government control is fraying has been evident for decades.’ I can see where this argument is evidenced in this post against the current government but you imply that it was also going on under Helen Clark. Could you provide some evidence of how this was so under Helen Clark and her Labour led government please. What evidence do you have that Helen’s government directly controlled and influenced the actions and culture of the police?

      • Tracey 11.3.1

        How about you download a system called “google”. This will allow you to search terms like helen clark and police interference or any variation you like. A list of things called links will appear. If you click on those links you get more detailed information. I look forward to reading the fruits of your labours

        • music4menz 11.3.1.1

          Tracey: If someone is going to make generalised accusations without clear references I have every right to request that the author provides their own evidence to support the accusations that person is making. Using sarcasm to try to belittle me and the question I asked is childish. You show yourself up by the pettiness of your remarks.

          Lyn: Thanks very much for your response. Interesting and much appreciated.

          • Tracey 11.3.1.1.1

            oh boo hoo. just couldnt be bothered aye… lynn who js already overworked did it cor you.

            next time sat “il behooves you:, it will make you seem even more righteous

      • lprent 11.3.2

        I was referring all the way back to the 1981. Offhand I can’t think of too many instances in the 5th Labour government of them leaning on the police. The right would probably offer a different opinion, but the examples they bring up would probably be things like “forgery” over Paintergate that would have been laughed out of court.

        However I can for the abuses of power by the police in that period.

        For instance Operation 8 in 2007 (?) was quite simply a farce where the police abused their surveillance powers, suffered a kind of collective paranoid fantasy, mounted a over the top operation, and essentially came up with absolutely nothing. They then used their charging powers on a few minor offenses. In my view members of the squad that initiated all that should have been charged, and their commander(s) who ordered such a demoted.

        There were a number of instance over that decade where under worked specialist squads used various activist groups to practice their techniques on, irrespective of need. The fishing search warrant, seizure of all documents and computers, and covering charging of my niece for “intimidation by loitering” for a peaceful protest being a good example.

      • Liberal Realist 11.3.3

        “What evidence do you have that Helen’s government directly controlled and influenced the actions and culture of the police?”

        You’re not able to do your own research? Try this:

        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Helen+Clark+Influence+Police

    • Murray Rawshark 11.4

      Tautoko.
      Ngati poaka need sorting out as much as the squirrels do. A shitload of dirty stuff went on when I used to come across them, and I suspect they’re worse these days. The subservience of our defence hierarchy to the seppos also worries the crap out of me.

  11. Tautoko Mangō Mata 12

    The SIS, GCSB and Police all benefit from having a right wing government that is more likely to give these groups greater powers. Note that the head of the select committee considering the Countering Terrorist Fighters Legislation Bill is Mark Mitchell, ex Police, one of Simon Lusk’s hard right protégés who had the benefit of Slater’s attack posts to secure the National candidacy for Rodney in 2011.
    ‘Slater wrote to Lusk, “I hope Mark is up with the play on these posts.’ Lusk said, ‘Yes am talking to him a lot. He is telling me that it is having a massive effect.’ “Dirty Politics” Nicky Hager Chapter 5
    It was interesting to reread Simon Lusk’s plan “Building a Fiscal Conservative Majority” in the light of the current situation.

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/sites/default/files/images/simon-lusk-national-doc-1.pdf

    • Weepus beard 12.1

      Apparently Mitchell is an ex-mercenary having operated in Iraq/Afgahnistan on behalf of private Western oil interests.

      Lovely bloke.

  12. Stephen Dickson 13

    But has anyone here laid a complaint? I know I have. All it takes is enough people getting onto them then they are forced to do something.

  13. Anne 14

    I’ve thought about it Stephen Dickson, but I don’t know the appropriate person to send it to. Is it the police commissioner or someone else?

  14. Halcyon 15

    Unfortunately Parker only has allegations and not evidence.Police need evidence to move forward on any investigation, regardless of whether the allegations were received by National or Labour. . I though Paker would have understood that.

    • Colonial Rawshark 15.1

      Huh? Police need to be given evidence before moving forward on an investigation…the aim of which is to gather evidence…?

      What are you on?

    • Murray Rawshark 15.2

      Nope. Police need to know of an offence. Then they investigate and detect and stuff. That’s why some of them are called detectives. They detect evidence. Or bash it out of people. Or pay a nark. Or make it up. Maybe none of these standard procedures work on people with powerful friends? Hmmm, that could explain it.

      • Tracey 15.2.1

        They need to believe an offense may have been committed, then they look at what they have and try to get more or any, evidence. Generally, imo, they only have to estabish a prima facie case for wrong doing.

    • Tracey 15.3

      The published emails may be prima facie for a charge. They dont have nothing, they have a start.

  15. greywarshark 16

    With well chosen words and nice harmonies Peggy Seeger and Ewen McColl have a song about the police – they’re Only doing their job,

  16. burt 17

    Is this the same David Parker named in this article.

    nz herald: I’m ashamed says minister who resigned

    He wasn’t charged, perhaps if he wasn’t an MP he’d have been charged and fined. Is this what Parker is trying to say, that special people get special treatment ?

    • Tracey 17.1

      So you are content that nothing referred to by parker deserves further investigation?

      Our RW have swung into full “play the man not the ball” on this one… Suffering from nerve damage?

    • Tracey 17.2

      Was my question too hard burt?

    • Murray Rawshark 17.3

      If Parker did that while he was an MP, he should have resigned from political life. But that is a completely different matter to the obscene acts attributed to Gusher, Graham, Hotchins, and Blubber Boy. It is far less serious and I think in the second case, more than one person deserves prison.

  17. burt 18

    Tracey

    It’s pretty simple really, he’s made a valid point but like most of the people who were in Clark’s government he’s so badly tainted it’s laughable.

    The same will be true of the numpties in Key’s government 6 years after he’s gone.

    For Parker to have any credibility on Police neutrality he’d need to clearly point out the swath of ‘not in the public interest’ with regard to the multiple prima facie cases not prosecuted during the Clark government was wrong. Is he doing that or just classic Labour Party BS being big and strong in opposition protesting the same shit they do in government ?

    • Tracey 18.1

      Well, list all the non prosecuted cases when he was with clark, that would be very useful for comparisson. I want integrity back in our govt, whichever parties are forming it.

      Dunne and MP have gone silent since the election and the baubles of office were handed out. Seymour has also gone silent. It isnt just about the Nats and LP. The contempt for the people of NZ is endemic and spreading.

        • Tracey 18.1.1.1

          Did you read your link?

          Can you further clarify how the things in your link compare to the assertion, proven in emails between graham and slater that hotchin was paying for feeley at the sfo to be undermined to help hotchins case with the sfo?

          • burt 18.1.1.1.1

            You are right, the link mainly pointed to Prima facie cases against Labour not prosecuted and we all know the answer to that is ‘move on’. How silly of me to think the lovers of big self serving government would see past the colour of the party logo and when thinking about police neutrality.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 18.1.1.1.1.1

              Nope, those who can read the link will see that it lists exactly the same number of allegations against National as Labour: two each.

              • burt

                I think you missed to 10 against the unions. But we all know electoral funding restrictions are there to stop the likes of the chinless scarf wearers and not the unions.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  I think you missed the one about the National Party and the Exclusive Brethren.

                  The list paints both sides as equally at fault. Get over it.

  18. Tracey 19

    despite all the diversion on this thread, to me, all that matters is why the following is not worthy of further investigation, given if proven, a man who lost millions for ordinary kiwis then sought to undermine the agency set up to protect kiwis interests

    ” name Mark Hotchin as a man alleged to have paid Cameron Slater and PR man Carrick Graham to run a smear campaign against the Serious Fraud Office while he was being investigated over his finance company Hanover Finance.

    “We know that thousands of dollars were being paid to Cameron Slater – Whaleoil – and Carrick Graham, and that they were busy trying to undermine the Serious Fraud Office. “

  19. Treetop 20

    Which is worse, not investigating a complaint or lying about investigating a complaint?

    I can just hear it from the office of the commissioner of police, the PMO is sabotaging our investigation by hidding under the umbrella of security intelligence.

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