Polity: The Greens’ draft list

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1. fambo 1

   17 March 2014 at 12:55 pm

   “At least one, and really two, of those big moves show a desire by the Greens’ central team to present a list more palatable to business than in the past.”

   Actually, there’s is no such thing as a “central team” determining the list rankings. All the branches make up their own preferred list (based on the wishes of their branch members) with all the branches’ choices aggregated to create a final list which every Green Party member can then vote for in their preferred order. Their choices are then aggregated again to arrive at the final list. So it’s very hard for personalities within the party to influence the final list.
   That said, the guts of your points do have a certain amount of truth to them. One of the qualities that has made James Shaw attractive is that he does have a good relationship with business. He may fall down the final list however, as those qualities may not be as well recognised and appreciated by the rank and file members as by those who participated at the branch level.
   I for one think it is vitally important that the Greens broaden their scope by having more MPs from right across the spectrum of society and I am sure many other members feel the same way. I think the Greens in general are very open to having a broader range of people both in membership and its MPs. It is a simply a case of people stepping up and becoming part of the party. The party would love to have more farmers and business people join, for instance.
   • Stephanie Rodgers 1.1

     17 March 2014 at 1:01 pm

     +1 to the first part of your comment. The Greens’ media release makes it clear that this is a list voted on by candidates and delegates at their conference:
     http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/greens-announce-initial-party-list/5/184752

     Of course, the wider membership may have differences of opinion on it, but that’s why they put it to a membership vote.

     I think Genter’s rise is just as likely due to her success as transport spokesperson as any perceived ‘business-friendliness’.
     • Ad 1.1.1

       17 March 2014 at 1:08 pm

       Agreed on Genter. Hope the membership gets her one more level.
     • Skinny 1.1.2

       17 March 2014 at 4:10 pm

       I would put Genter ahead of Hughes. Davidson won’t get in, actually at this stage I’d be nervous from 12 upwards.
       • Tamati 1.1.2.1

         17 March 2014 at 4:13 pm

         No one takes him seriously after ‘Hey Clint’.
   • Ant 1.2

     17 March 2014 at 1:10 pm

     Isn’t there a candidate selection committee who vet candidates before it even gets to that point. They also control admission to a candidate pool which also seems to be able to be influenced by input by the Green’s campaign manager.

     You’d think they can very much shape the list by admission and omission just like all other parties.
2. Tamati 2

   17 March 2014 at 1:09 pm

   I see Bomber has already labelled the list ‘Gerrymandered’. He should probably stick to four letter words, rather than trying to use complex political terms he doesn’t understand.
   • McFlock 2.1

     17 March 2014 at 1:43 pm

     irregardless of the upcoming (even eminent) election, the pacific criticizing of Bomber for his using of sapphisticated wordiage belittlises you. 🙂
     • Tamati 2.1.1

       17 March 2014 at 1:46 pm

       A while back he started going on about Saltwater Economics, without the slightest idea what he was talking about. Embarrassing!
     • Tamati 2.1.2

       17 March 2014 at 1:54 pm

       IMO he’s more of a hindrance to the left than a help. He should stick to muck raking on the right rather bashing his own team.
       • McFlock 2.1.2.1

         17 March 2014 at 2:10 pm

         He’s a nextgen Trotter – a bombast who hypes his withered left-wing cred.

         More machine now, than man – twisted and bloody boring.
       • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 2.1.2.2

         17 March 2014 at 2:23 pm

         @ Tamati,

         Where has Bomber labelled the list ‘Gerrymandered’?

         For someone objecting to bashing one’s own team – you appear to be doing a very good job of it yourself – if a left-wing government is what you are aiming for.

         Bradbury has been very instrumental in setting up The Daily Blog – which along with this site – allows for more information and discussion of left wing issues and real issues than our mainstream media permits – this allows for more chance of more people making an informed vote than before The Daily Blog was set up – for this fact alone I find accusations that Bradbury is ‘more of a hindrance than a help’ entirely without foundation.
         • Tamati 2.1.2.2.1

           17 March 2014 at 2:28 pm

           He sent off a tweet this morning.

           Bomber isn’t a member of my team. He won’t be near any left wing government anytime soon.
           • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 2.1.2.2.1.1

             17 March 2014 at 2:37 pm

             Thanks I’ll check it.

             You ignore the point I make. He has allowed for a huge amount more discussion on leftwing issue and information re this current bunch of incompetents being available to the public – you may not like his style – nor agree with everything he says – however I do not think you can assert him as a hindrance toward a left wing government forming – quite the opposite is true – he has created something that makes a left wing government being voted in far more likely to occur.
             • Tamati …

               17 March 2014 at 2:42 pm

               On that point he may not have been specifically referring to the Greens party list. All he said was “Gerrymandered Party list” with no reference to the party. It was only a few minutes after the Greens released their list though.
             • Tamati …

               17 March 2014 at 2:49 pm

               On your second point, I don’t think he’s done much for the left movement. If anything he’s demonised moderates in the Labour party and presents politics as an actual battle, rather than a battle of ideas. This may be red meat to his followers, but it only isolates himself from moderate swing voters. As a result he gets very little mainstream media coverage.

               The only really effective left blog at the moment is Auckland Transport Blog. Rather than mindless mudslinging, they present a rational argument with an alternative vision for the future. The Standard is pretty good, but is again, preaching to the converted.
               • Ant …

                 17 March 2014 at 3:36 pm

                 Bit of a stretch describing Transportblog as ‘left’.
                 • Ad …

                   17 March 2014 at 5:00 pm

                   Seriously? Total car-haters.
                   • Ant …

                     17 March 2014 at 5:48 pm

                     Efficiency in transport planning is fairly agnostic. Their views are technocratic in nature not really left/right.
                   • Ad …

                     17 March 2014 at 6:12 pm

                     Tamati’s point that TransportBlog present excellent cases for their argument is correct. But their policy sympathies go far beyond the merely technocratic. They are pro-city, but they are pro- a very specific kind of city. In New Zealand only Labour and the Greens even think about imagining in this space. They have no friends in Act or National caucuses.
                 • Tamati …

                   17 March 2014 at 8:42 pm

                   It’s pretty clearly a left leaning blog.
                   • felix …

                     17 March 2014 at 9:33 pm

                     Only in the sense that because it’s based on evidence, it happens to lean left 😉
             • Populuxe1 …

               18 March 2014 at 2:02 am

               No he doesn’t. He generally only promotes the party that’s hired him at the time and if anyone disagrees with him (easy enough to do because he quite often has no idea what he’s talking about or wilfully distorts facts) they get shouted down or deleted. The man is an arsehat.
         • Disraeli Gladstone 2.1.2.2.2

           17 March 2014 at 4:39 pm

           I don’t know if I would call Bomber a hindrance. He’s just, in my opinion, laughably incompetent. He makes outlandish claims that never come true (Matt McCarten is the MP for Mana, anyone?) and has limited understanding of the law (give people free internet for votes!).

           His posts are poorly written and full of simple mistakes and are often put together from several of his tweets. A lot of the time is spent creating poorly photoshopped, unfunny “memes”.

           When ColeyTangerina decided she no longer wanted to write for The Daily Blog, Bomber gave away her real life identity out of revenge. He pleads for unity on the left and then often drops in snide remarks about other left-wing bloggers (Danyl McLauchlan, Imperator Fish, QoT).

           He posted an anti-semitic image on The Daily Blog. It was an honest mistake. Instead of just saying so, he lashed out at everyone who pointed it out, censored the comments and so on until he eventually realised he should’ve apologised.

           He made a mistake on one of his posts about Hone Harawira and his trip to South Africa. I pointed it out to him in the comments section. He deleted my comment and then amended his post. He wrote about the Internet Party while not declaring he was involved (no matter how briefly) in it.

           He wants to be important and famous. He worked for Mana and then when that ship didn’t set sail, went off to Kim Dotcom with half-baked policy ideas. The Internet Party wouldn’t exactly be a left-wing utopia, either. He wants to be known. He doesn’t want to help.

           Fuck it, Bomber is a hindrance and the left would be far better served if someone like Jessie Hume or Frank Macskasy went and held a virtual coup on The Daily Blog.
           • Papa Tuanuku 2.1.2.2.2.1

             17 March 2014 at 5:03 pm

             mY HUNCH is that bomber isn’t too schooled on reflection and agency. Reflection – the ability to see where mistakes are made and to correct them, or to look around at what words and to do that, and agency: u dont just ID the prob, u suggest an action or solution. sure he talks about wide policy platforms, but as a reader i want to be presented with an idea that im joining a million others, and to be given ideas about where to go to bring change.
           • Murray Olsen 2.1.2.2.2.2

             17 March 2014 at 6:32 pm

             A good précis of Bumbler there, DG. I think of him as an angry semi-literate peacock that is missing its tail feathers. He does some things very well but always seems to let the fact that he has the emotional maturity of an angst ridden teenager get in the way. If he made it less about him, he’d be far more useful.

             I hadn’t heard about Coley Tangerina. That absolutely sucks.
             • Tamati …

               17 March 2014 at 8:44 pm

               He’s basically the Whale Oil of the left, without the page views and the media scoops.
           • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 2.1.2.2.2.3

             17 March 2014 at 10:18 pm

             @ Disreali,

             Whilst you list a major negative that Bomber has managed re Coley Tangerine (and a propensity for putdowns of his own team) – you also manage some putdowns that are either a matter of opinion (and a warped ones too) or simply not negatives.

             Perhaps you sign up to the NZ culture of insularism: not speaking up or standing up to be counted, not rocking the boat, culture of the lowest common denominator and apathy – judging by your comment you do -if not, you have to admit that Bradbury rails against such peer pressure and is doing his bit (and more) to shift such apathy.

             Because I do not sign up to the negative aspects of this country’s culture I find Bradbury’s writing refreshing – he cuts through crap (another heresy) I don’t agree with all he says yet I disagree with you thoroughly -I think he gets a lot correct.

             His style is a great relief to the watered down mediocrity I have come to expect from every main stream source and believe that this aspect of his expression would be particularly appealing to younger people who are more likely to appreciate blunt opinion and more likely to view ‘carefully phrased’ writing for the self censored passionless-more-fearful-of-being-shot-down-in-flames-like-you-have-just-done-than-bothered-about-getting-a-point-across that it is.

             I am glad that I can go to one place and read the many writers listed here who write articles on the Daily Blog and fairly much have Bradbury to thank for that.

             Bradbury is in the public eye – his errors are there for all to see – I am glad that his passion for getting information across wins over any concern about any criticisms small-minded armchair critics hold toward him for speaking out strongly on things that matter in this country and encouraging others to do the same.
             • Disraeli Gladstone …

               18 March 2014 at 9:30 am

               I guess it’s a lot to do with intention. The Daily Blog is a useful site (with many, many flaws) but there’s not a bone in my body that thinks Bomber did that out of selflessness. He did that because he wasn’t get enough page views at Tumeke for his ego. And unfortunately, he manages TDB in that manner. Which means that the great writers get lost in pages of his rubbish. Or he protects his friends over writers who may have the far stronger point (Trotter and Tangerina).

               Also, I find it hard that anyone views Bomber’s -writing- as “refreshing”. Maybe his style and his political positioning, sure. But his actual writing is quite bad. Like I said, it suffers from technical errors. Some people say that’s not a problem. And I want to agree with you. If we limit political discourse to people who can only type Oxford English then we’re doing the wrong thing and losing important voices. Heck, I’m not always right on these things (but editing internet comments =/= editing internet articles). But for crying out loud, would it kill him just to read up a little on the usage of the comma?! I also find his writing very condescending. His use of “wahine” is just cringe-worthy.

               There’s also this fallacy that Bomber is popular with the younger generation which I’ve seen nothing to suggest he is. I won’t get into which, where and why I’m there, but at one university campus he’s treated as a bit of a political joke by the politically savvy students who know about the rise of the politics in blogs. I think this comes back to the “memes”. He thinks he’s hip and cool (the fact that I’m using hip shows that I cannot also not talk on the subject of being cool) but he’s just forcing it. I don’t think he speaks to young people. He speaks to a very small sub-section of political people.

               Also, I’d argue that The Daily Blog is actually very insular. I admire the Standard’s moderating policy. I don’t think it’s any surprise to say I’m not a dyed-in-the-wool leftist. I’m a Third Way, New Labour, perpetual disappointment at Blair and Clinton for not getting it right, type of person. But you guys allow me to comment here and have good discussion, let me state my opinion and sometimes my opinion changes from these discussions.

               The Daily Blog heavily censors comments. I’ve had comments deleted by TDB because I stated, without an ounce of personal abuse, that I disagreed with Bomber’s “there’s no centrist voters because United Future is the proof”. Worst still, Bomber actually made a post to my first comment, counter-arguing. And then refused to let my reply through moderation. So essentially it makes him look good.
               • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) …

                 18 March 2014 at 2:13 pm

                 O.k you are now assessing his intention – that is pretty impressive of you – to know what his intentions are.

                 It is plain to see, having followed some of his writings on Tumeke prior to setting up the Daily Blog, that Bradbury was entirely frustrated by the lack of information in the mainstream media and how this is effecting the election results. If personal ambition is in existence that is not a crime and it is only part of the equation and I think you really are grasping at straws to put forward that as the sole reason.

                 It was very clear that I was talking about his style and not his ability to write English with perfect grammar – what are your priorities here ? Content or form?

                 Citing ‘politically savvy students’ opinions as a justification that his writings do not appeal to all young people is hardly conclusive. Although I do concede it may not be solely a younger generation that finds his ‘cutting the crap style’ refreshing – I am aware of [rather well educated] people 20 years older than me that consider him as having an above average understanding of what is really going on in our society and beyond and consider his being banned from the radio as yet another clear attempt at ensuring NZers are not well informed.

                 This conversation has cleared one thing up though – that it matters more to those responding negatively re Bradbury that someone has good social skills than what they do or promote. This is enlightening and helps me understand how Key keeps getting positive polling – it doesn’t matter what he says or promotes – such as selling out NZ interests left, right and centre, the main thing is that he relates well to people and ‘looks like a great guy to have a beer with’.

                 Thanks for the insight – I’ve had a great deal of trouble understanding why people would vote for a complete sell-out and now I understand; it is all about prioritising form over content.
                 • Disraeli Gladstone …

                   18 March 2014 at 3:08 pm

                   You’ve made a leap in logic that I’m not following.
           • QoT 2.1.2.2.2.4

             17 March 2014 at 11:02 pm

             “drops in snide remarks” is putting it a bit bloody diplomatically, DG. I’m no fucking Miss Manners myself, but it’s hilarious how Bomber oscillates between whinging about “unity” and then savaging every single person who doesn’t support his pet crusades – and stabbing them in the back whenever possible.

             I just thank fuck he doesn’t know who I am, because I am absolutely certain he’d have outed me as he did Coley.

             blue leopard: yeah, there are awesome writers at TDB. It’s just a fucking pity you have to wade waist-deep through hundreds of posts by boring white dudes to get to them.
             • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) …

               17 March 2014 at 11:15 pm

               Yes, he does oscillate in that way and it was hideous what he did to Coley 🙁
             • Disraeli Gladstone …

               18 March 2014 at 9:16 am

               I edited my original post which had words like “vindictive” and “zero journalistic integrity” but then thought that just made me seem too shrill!
         • Penny Bright 2.1.2.2.3

           17 March 2014 at 10:00 pm

           Oh really?

           Then how come the PHONY Martyn Bradbury banned me from making any comments on HIS ‘Daily Blog’ after I refused to bow to his attempted bullying and continued to stand as an Independent candidate in the 2013 Auckland Mayoral campaign?

           The following comments are from facebook correspondence between myself and Martyn Bradbury – read it for yourself:

           Martyn Bradbury 9:05pm Apr 17
           If you run against Minto we have nothing to speak about ever again Penny – to run against Minto says you have an ego that is out of control and only focused on your own self-agrandment. I am bitterly disappointed by your selfishness Penny. Consider my door closed to you

           Whatever Martyn. Your ‘door’ was never really ‘open’ to me anyway, as far as I am concerned. When was the last time you gave me the opportunity to raise issues to do with corruption, the lack of transparency, the way the 1% run the Auckland $upercity on your show? errr…… NEVER? How is my trying to ‘clip the wings’ of the 1% in whose interests the Auckland region (and NZ) is run ‘egotistical’? You can stick your ‘boys’ club bullying’ where the sun don’t shine Martyn. Not impressed. Penny Bright 2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate.

           Martyn Bradbury 10:36pm Apr 17
           bullying Penny? That’s rich coming from you. Running against Minto is the worst thing you can do – v disappointed in your betrayal of solidarity

           Martyn – you are so FULL OF SHIT.

           As I first put my ‘hat into the Auckland Mayoral ring’ – I could argue that John Minto is standing against me?

           However – unlike you – I am consistent in my position.

           I think it’s good that John is standing – he can raise the anti-poverty issues that Mana are campaigning on, and this will help raise both his and Mana’s profile for the 2014 General Election.

           I will continue to expose the $upercity as a ‘corrupt corporate coup’ as I did in the 2010 campaign, but now with the benefit of far more FACTS and EVIDENCE (as outlined in my legal documents that were filed in the High Court as part of the Occupy Auckland Appeal) which prove how Auckland Council works in the interests of the 1%.

           Personally Martyn, I prefer to work with good people, with good hearts, brains, guts and a basic understanding of the principles of fair play and natural justice.

           Not interested in working with idiots, sheep, amateurs, saboteurs or provocateurs.

           I’m targeting the 1%.

           You appear to be targeting me Martyn.

           So – whose side are YOU on?

           ‘Solidarity’ – with whom?

           Penny Bright

           2013 Auckland Mayoral Candidate
           • Tamati 2.1.2.2.3.1

             17 March 2014 at 10:36 pm

             That hardly surprises me. It just further underlines the fact he is an egotistical cunt.
           • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 2.1.2.2.3.2

             17 March 2014 at 10:45 pm

             That is odd, I am sure it was from The Daily Blog that I was made aware you were standing.

             Do you consider that because you had a disagreement with him that everything else that he does doesn’t stand for anything? – that he is ‘a hinderance to the left’ that his interaction with you and others will cause less chance for a leftwing government getting in despite his part in the existence of The Daily Blog?

             It is clear that he has had a fair few problems relating decently with quite a few people – this would be unpleasant to experience – and it would be better if he was perfect – however is it possible for you and others to get things in perspective and look at the bigger picture for a moment?

             n.b It may sound strange, yet I was disappointed that so many people with decent ideas were standing for the Auckland mayoralty – this clearly splits the vote of those that would vote for such ideas – one would hope that there was some sort of co-operative strategy involved in such a case – I am guessing when those from the left learn the advantages of cooperating is when such views will become more and better represented, perhaps that is where Martyn was coming from – although it does sound heavy handed on his part.
             • Populuxe1 …

               18 March 2014 at 9:33 am

               Bombast doesn’t need to be perfect, he just needs to be consistent, more reasoned, and less of a giant bullying arsebramble.
           • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.2.2.3.3

             18 March 2014 at 9:32 am

             Off with his head!
           • Disraeli Gladstone 2.1.2.2.3.4

             18 March 2014 at 9:55 am

             “says you have an ego that is out of control and only focused on your own self-agrandment.”

             This is my new favourite quote.

             I don’t think there’s ever been a greater lack of self-awareness.
3. George D 3

   17 March 2014 at 1:20 pm

   It’s a reasonable hypothesis, but fortunately it’s not true.

   If it were, why keep Delahunty (the most radical woman in Parliament) at number five? Why push Davidson to an electable spot, and put relatively-conservative Browning behind her?

   The truth is much simpler. Shaw is both extremely competent and extremely well-liked.
   • Tamati 3.1

     17 March 2014 at 1:25 pm

     They’re scared of Browning because he has a tendency to say rather stupid things. He represents the old school hippies greens, anti-GE ,anti-Vaccination, anti-Fluoride, anti-Monsanto etc. Popular with the members, but potentially embarrassing for a government.
     • Chooky 3.1.1

       17 March 2014 at 1:34 pm

       @ Tamati….disagree….Steffan Browning would be an asset to any Left government. He is very intelligent and hard working. He is also quite moderate and an extremely good listener and coordinator. He gets on very well with farmers…because he was one himself. One of his sons has a PhD in agri- science I think.

       I say this because I have on occasion been co-opted by him and co-ordinated by him to do work for the Greens and I am not a member of the Greens…lol…where is the wild Chooky Party?… or Weka Party?….I want to join
       • Tamati 3.1.1.1

         17 March 2014 at 1:43 pm

         He may be intelligent and well educated but he represents the agrarian-organic faction of the party. Flick through his posts on Frog Blog and you’ll see he spends most of time bashing Monsanto and GE. The Greens want to move on from these issues, it may have got them votes in 2002 but it’s not a good look in a modern government.
         • Chooky 3.1.1.1.1

           17 March 2014 at 2:08 pm

           @ Tamati…au contraire….he is completely in sync with where young Europeans are at , which is agrarian -organic….this is surely where modern govts should be at !….

           uncontaminated food * clean rivers * water conservation *environmental protection * soil protection and soil health

           multi-national, industrialised farming, spray poisoned food , depleted soils , dead bees, depleted and polluted rivers and aquifers …is so yesterday… and passe …and short term

           …we should be aiming at high end markets where the terroir is valued not thrashed and trashed
           • Tamati 3.1.1.1.1.1

             17 March 2014 at 2:19 pm

             He basically rabbles on about GE scaremongering and Monsanto conspiracy theories, whilst ignoring objective science.

             Clean rivers and water conservation aren’t part of his portfolios.

             We hardly sell any food to Europe anyway.
             • McFlock …

               17 March 2014 at 2:28 pm

               just fyi, it seems to me that you guys are arguing past each other.

               Ignoring the relative framing, you guys seem to have the same policy description of Browning, but disagree as to whether he’s liable to ShaneJones it every so often.

               FWIW, I can’t say I’d ever heard of the dude before today.
               • Tamati …

                 17 March 2014 at 2:36 pm

                 Yeah I can’t be bothered engaging in a GE debate. Been there done that.

                 The Greens also know that this guy is yesterday’s man with yesterday’s ideas. They try their best to keep him under wraps. Hence why you’ve never heard of him. At the moment all he’s doing is blocking young talent from moving up the ranks.
                 • Chooky …

                   17 March 2014 at 5:10 pm

                   @ Tamati…you sound very threatened by him…he must be doing a good job

                   …btw he would fit very well into the Greens in France , Germany or Italy
                   • Tamati …

                     17 March 2014 at 5:26 pm

                     Yeah I’d be pretty terrified if he was Minister of Agriculture or something. Not that I think all Greens are all that bad. Kevin Hague would be an excellent Minister of Health. Very smart, very informed in the issues.

                     Greens in Germany often form coalitions with the centre-right CDU. I’m not sure if many Green MP’s would be in favour of a similar arrangement here.
               • Chooky …

                 17 March 2014 at 5:08 pm

                 McFlock fyi…he is the complete opposite of Shane Jones
                 • McFlock …

                   17 March 2014 at 5:40 pm

                   maybe, maybe not. I won’t take your word for it, though.
                   • Chooky …

                     17 March 2014 at 7:49 pm

                     lol…well i care not one jot
             • Ergo Robertina …

               17 March 2014 at 10:17 pm

               ‘We hardly sell any food to Europe anyway.’
               Not the point. We compete with the Europeans as a food producer.
       • weka 3.1.1.2

         17 March 2014 at 3:16 pm

         “where is the wild Chooky Party?… or Weka Party?….I want to join”

         Nah, what we really need is the Lemming Party, one with global reach 😈
         • Chooky 3.1.1.2.1

           17 March 2014 at 7:50 pm

           nah …i am not ready to follow the lemmings
           • weka 3.1.1.2.1.1

             17 March 2014 at 9:10 pm

             Thinking about it, we already have a Lemming party – NACT.
   • toad 3.2

     17 March 2014 at 1:27 pm

     +1

     Agreed, George. I support Shaw having a high position on that basis, even though I am generally considered to be on the left within the Greens.
     • lprent 3.2.1

       17 March 2014 at 2:15 pm

       I support Shaw having a high position on that basis, even though I am generally considered to be on the left within the Greens.

       It is the same for me in Labour.

       While I’m usually to the right in many policies inside Labour, especially economic | defense | education | science, I’ve frequently been known to support candidates from the left purely because I think that they’re more competent or potentially competent. I figure that someone who is competent will be swayed towards dealing with reality when it inevitably conflicts with dogma or ideology. But someone who is incompetent and runs with a dogma and/or ideology will tend to stand/retreat to where they feel comfortable – usually to the detriment of us all.

       I know that changing your mind is what happens when you present right-wingers like myself with enough information to decide a different course of action is required than the one we feel comfortable with. That is why I oppose most mining in NZ (economically useless deposits), the TPP (economically destructive for the NZ economy), the way WINZ operates (inefficiently wasting resources on talkback obsessions), national standards (wasting resources of moronic testing), charter schools (destroying opportunity for all kids), voting Green (I despise the factions in the Labour caucus for choosing the wrong person because it is better for the faction in the short-term) etc etc. Some people may note a trend in how I judge things BTW.

       And I’ve seen it happen from the left to the centre as well. Most notably with Ms Clark.

       After all, when putting people on a list what you are doing is selecting the people you want to help govern this country for all of its citizens. Competence (or a potential for it) is the first criteria. After that you look at other attributes.
     • phillip ure 3.2.2

       17 March 2014 at 4:36 pm

       “..I am generally considered to be on the left within the Greens..”

       wow..!..that’s pretty scary..!

       ..a reactionary like you is considered ‘left’..?

       ..whoar..!

       phillip ure..
4. Disraeli Gladstone 4

   17 March 2014 at 1:54 pm

   It would be great to have Genter, Shaw and Davidson all in high list positions so that they can become MPs. All very capable.
5. The Real Matthew 5

   17 March 2014 at 3:21 pm

   There is a real lack of ethnic diversity in that List.

   As a white person myself I’m disappointed at the lack of minority representation in the Party.

   The Green Party as a list party has every ability to provide a voice to ethnic minorities yet refuses to do so.

   Time for an ethnic quota?
   • McFlock 5.1

     17 March 2014 at 4:40 pm

     maybe you should put forward a remit to that effect, being a member and all… /sarc
   • Papa Tuanuku 5.2

     17 March 2014 at 5:00 pm

     I agree, nine Pākehā in the top 10.
     • BM 5.2.1

       17 March 2014 at 7:08 pm

       Greens are a white middle class party.

       The only time you get any sort of ethnic diversity with the greens is when the cleaning crews turn up after their meetings.
       • felix 5.2.1.1

         17 March 2014 at 7:18 pm

         That’s why BM votes for this diverse bunch with one brown face in the top 24.
         • karol 5.2.1.1.1

           17 March 2014 at 7:27 pm

           2 or 3….. Parata, Bennett, Bridges.
           • BM 5.2.1.1.1.1

             17 March 2014 at 7:55 pm

             Unless they’re wearing a flax skirt, poking out their tongues and bearing their buttocks they just don’t register as Maori with felix.
             • felix …

               17 March 2014 at 9:15 pm

               Yeah that must be it. 🙄

               Or it could be that I meant just what I wrote: “one brown face in the top 24”.

               Confusing, I know…
               • Tamati …

                 17 March 2014 at 9:29 pm

                 Now you’re getting technical about what constitutes brown…. What National M.P.’s meet your threshold?
                 • felix …

                   17 March 2014 at 10:19 pm

                   Would you like it as a hex code or an RGB?

                   Or perhaps you’d like to read BM’s comment again and see if you can figure out what he thinks ethnicity is…
                   • Tamati …

                     17 March 2014 at 10:39 pm

                     Hex code would be fine.
                   • felix …

                     17 March 2014 at 10:51 pm

                     #000000
                   • Te Reo Putake …

                     17 March 2014 at 10:57 pm

                     Would that be an example of black humour, felix?
                   • felix …

                     17 March 2014 at 11:10 pm

                     Ha! Very good.
                   • RedLogix …

                     18 March 2014 at 8:58 am

                     I think that’s the first time I’ve ever seen someone get a leg over felix. In the sweetest possible way – love you both 🙂
             • karol …

               18 March 2014 at 7:27 am

               Don’t get too complacent, BM. The GP also have Jack MacDonald on their lit of 20 – and Maramar Davidson – that’s 3 Maori to 3 on the Nats’ list of 24.
               • toad …

                 18 March 2014 at 8:51 am

                 Metiria Turei, David Clendon, Denise Roche, Marama Davidson & Jack MacDonald all identify as Maori.

                 That’s 5 of the top 20 on the draft list.
           • felix 5.2.1.1.1.2

             17 March 2014 at 9:28 pm

             Hi karol,

             I note that BM referred to ethnic diversity. I also note there is no use pointing this out to him, so I didn’t bother. 😉
             • The Real Matthew …

               18 March 2014 at 1:41 pm

               Ethnic diversity is not just looking at the ratio of Maori to White people.

               Our country is a multicultural country yet there appears to be no Pasifika or Asian representation.

               Comparing the Greens top 24 with Nationals top 24 is silly because we all know the Greens wont get 24 seats and National will get more than 24 seats.

               My understanding is National has approximately 9 Maori MP’s as well as MP’s from Pasifika and multiple Asian backgrounds.

               If National can do it why can’t the Green Party?
               • felix …

                 19 March 2014 at 8:50 pm

                 I never said anything about maori. I was looking at white/other, as you suggest I should.
                 I never compared the greens top 24 to anything, I believe it was the top 10 that was under discussion at the time.

                 I compared that to the Nat’s top 24, which is
                 a) somewhere in the region of the type of ratio you recommend, and
                 b) the point at which the Nats stop numbering their list on the webpage I linked to, and I don’t have all day to count the number of shitheads in the National party.*

                 as Toad pointed out above, you’re fuckshit wrong anyway.

                 *I guess the web designer didn’t have all day either. Or maybe they stop numbering them at 24 because that’s where the darkies start to appear.

                 Who knows? Who cares? But if you’re going to put words in my mouth can you please make them more interesting ones? Thanks.
   • karol 5.3

     17 March 2014 at 6:46 pm

     I’m hoping Maramar Davidson will get a higher position on the list after member votes.

     I thought the Greens started recruiting more Maori/Pacific candidates in the last year or so – maybe for electorate candidates? I’m wondering if it will take a while longer for their capabilities to become more known within the Green Party?
     • George D 5.3.1

       18 March 2014 at 8:57 am

       Turei, Clendon, Roche, Davidson, and MacDonald are all Maori. That’s five from twenty.

       Agree entirely about lacking representativeness on other spectrums, but that is a representation of the membership, which is a representation of the policy issues the Greens have made important. There is a Pasifika Greens, but it has lacked energy after a key person left to pursue other interests.
6. Dan1 6

   17 March 2014 at 6:56 pm

   Sorry to see Stefan Browning possibly demoted. Always speaks sense; he gives crediblity to Greens philosophy.
   • Chooky 6.1

     17 March 2014 at 7:55 pm

     Dan 1…+100…. yes he is very measured and tolerant….and listens carefully to all sides before making up his mind…and then still keeps an open mind…like a true scientist
     • Tamati 6.1.1

       17 March 2014 at 8:36 pm

       Like a true scientist … except he rambles on about GE and Monsanto conspiracy theories, despite overwhelming science.

       I’d be interested to hear his views on fluoridation and vaccination, does anyone have any links?

       Also interested in Catherine Delahunty views on these issues.
       • Chooky 6.1.1.1

         17 March 2014 at 10:07 pm

         @ Tamati …obviously some countries are still concerned with this issue ….so NO …he is not “yesterday’s man with yesterday’s ideas”……

         France bans Monsanto GM maize ahead of sowing season

         http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/15/france-monsanto-idUSL6N0MC0BR20140315

         “Longstanding differences between EU countries resurfaced in February when they failed to agree on whether or not to approve another GM maize variety, Pioneer 1507, developed by DuPont and Dow Chemical, leaving the way open to the EU Commission to clear it for cultivation.

         France is trying to win support to overhaul the EU rules.”
         • Ergo Robertina 6.1.1.1.1

           17 March 2014 at 10:31 pm

           +100 The EU’s GDP has overtaken that of the USA, and it is now the world’s biggest economy. So if it’s holding the line on GMO, that hardly constitutes ‘yesterday’s ideas’, which is just Tamati’s lame attempt to marginalise Steffan Browning. The Green Party needs at least one MP, preferably more, who is knowledgeable about this issue.
           • Tamati 6.1.1.1.1.1

             17 March 2014 at 10:44 pm

             The E.U. has a larger GDP than the U.S. because they keep adding countries, not because they ban some G.E. crops.
             • Ergo Robertina …

               17 March 2014 at 11:04 pm

               Nope, that’s not the point. How it grew is not the issue – it is the world’s biggest economy. It is holding the line on GMO. This is an issue in play.
               Your claim that this is yesterday’s issue is quite simply wrong.
         • Tamati 6.1.1.1.2

           17 March 2014 at 10:43 pm

           If the Greens really cared about this issue they would have Norman or Turei making speeches about it once in a while. It’s yesterday’s issue, even the Brits are lobbying the EU to stand down from their sanctimonious approach to Biotechnology.
           • Ergo Robertina 6.1.1.1.2.1

             17 March 2014 at 10:59 pm

             Why do you say ‘even the Brits’? The British traditionally identify with the Americans (the special relationship etc), so it’s no surprise they would be soft on GMO.
       • Chooky 6.1.1.2

         18 March 2014 at 4:16 pm

         @ Tamati…why are you interested in their fluoridation and vaccination views?.. ie why, given your context of criticism of Browning and the Greens , are you out to get Steffan Browning and Catherine Delahunty?

         ( you wouldnt be the man with the pie and the Penthouse in his briefcase would you?….trying to infiltrate and get evidence on the ground …..of shock /horror… subversion of state security by naughty Greens !…evidence you cant get through other interception methods( …you know, nudge , nudge,wink, wink,….GCSB, SIS?…naughty , naughty….)

         ….as far as I know the Greens don’t hold any particularly unusual views on fluoridation and vaccination…..no more so than members/voters of any other political party …..These are highly idiosyncratic, individual health subjects not connected directly with particular political parties in a democracy…(now under fascism it could be a different story)

         imo….How one feels about these health issues depends on how much one knows or is/has been affected by them ..eg similarly with mercury fillings , aspartame in diet fizzy drinks etc

         ……Do you want to go around questioning all the mummies , doctors , virologists etc ….who have questions about blanket fluoridation and vaccination of populations…and find out what political parties they belong to?….or are you just trying to make a case against the Greens?
         • alwyn 6.1.1.2.1

           18 March 2014 at 4:35 pm

           My goodness Chooky, you must be getting on a bit if you remember that old story about the SIS agent and his copy of Penthouse. That must have been about 35 years ago?

           I’m sure they would be much more up to date now. They would probably emulate Shane Jones and get their porn off the internet on tax-payer supplied smart phones these days.
         • Tamati 6.1.1.2.2

           18 March 2014 at 4:38 pm

           I just want to know where they stand on these issues. No hidden agenda, I just want to know.

           Fluoridation is absolutely a topical issue at the moment. The thread is about the Greens so I was asking questions about their potential M.P.s.

           Do you know where they stand on these issues? What do you mean by ‘particularly unusual views’ ?
           • Chooky 6.1.1.2.2.1

             18 March 2014 at 5:29 pm

             @ Tamati …if I knew ( which i dont, because i dont know many Greens ) I wouldnt tell you.!…why dont you ask them yourself…or look up the Green Policy ?…and why do YOU want to know?!….especially as you are highly critical of Steffan Browning and you are pro the multi-national Monsanto’s GM… You ask :”What do you mean by ‘particularly unusual views’ ?”…I mean , “particularly unusual” to very conservative people like yourself

             @ alywn…yes well i am older than 35…ha ha…( I also remember that there was WW1 and WW2 and the Charge of the Light Brigade)…….also i dont know how old Tamati is…he /she might be ninety and still getting around in a light raincoat with an umbrella and with a pie in a briefcase and ….urmm a gidget with access to porn ( I have heard some of those magazines no longer exist)

             …Lets face it, there is only so much you can learn through spying on peoples computers and cell phones …. especially in this day and age when the quarry is very leery…..You have to get out your old spy craft and work and gather information where ever and whenever on the ground …and who better to do it than the old geriatric spies?….i digress
             • Tamati …

               19 March 2014 at 12:06 am

               I’ve looked on their website numerous times and tried to find press releases on the subject. Neither Browning nor Delahunty have mentioned either. Despite fluoridation being a very topical issue in this last year.
               Why do I want know? Because I have a suspicion that Greens hierarchy are trying to silence his views on these issues and I want to know what his views are. What wrong with wanting to know want a member of Parliament believes?
               Yes, I’m pro biotechnology. I’m pretty pro science in general really, hence why I’m currently studying it.
               You were the one who used the phrase “particularly unusual”. Why do you think I’m , conservative?
               I’m much younger than 35 and have no idea what you are talking about with regards to pies and briefcases.
               • Chooky …

                 19 March 2014 at 9:34 am

                 @ Tamati…Seems like you have already made up your mind….and are hunting for anecdotal or other Greens to give credence to your accusations….and you are trying to destroy Steffan Browning from within the Green Party.( again it tells me he is a very effective MP for the Green Party)

                 Tamati 3.1
                 17 March 2014 at 1:25 pm
                 “They’re scared of Browning because he has a tendency to say rather stupid things. He represents the old school hippies greens, anti-GE ,anti-Vaccination, anti-Fluoride, anti-Monsanto etc. Popular with the members, but potentially embarrassing for a government.”

                 Tamati are you working for Monsanto or some other multi-national?… Yes they do pay people to advocate for them and destroy any critical thinking or critical thinkers which threaten their money making…Do you get paid for your work by a multi-national ?…If so what multi-nationals are paying you either directly or indirectly? What PR/ advocacy company do you work for ? Who is this company paid by?

                 What political party do you belong to?….NACT?…I bet it isnt the Greens. This is where I think you are at (from one of your previous comments) :

                 “Greens in Germany often form coalitions with the centre-right CDU. I’m not sure if many Green MP’s would be in favour of a similar arrangement here”.

                 I think you are a desperate NACT who would love to get the Greens on side…..you know there isnt a chance in hell ….so you are working to destroy the core things that they stand for ( again from one of your comments above):

                 “…he represents the agrarian-organic faction of the party. Flick through his posts on Frog Blog and you’ll see he spends most of time bashing Monsanto and GE. The Greens want to move on from these issues, it may have got them votes in 2002 but it’s not a good look in a modern government”.

                 Conclusion: You are scared of the Greens getting into a NZ Government and in particular Steffan Browning .

                 I also note you say “not a good look in a modern government”……however this is where the modern governments in Europe are at.!….this is where Greens are at around the world!….so one can only conclude that you think the multi-.nationals should take over and dictate to New Zealand agriculture ….and dictate anything else which makes a profit out of New Zealanders….whether it be what they consume or health….multi-national profits must come first.
   • Penny Bright 6.2

     17 March 2014 at 10:10 pm

     I agree.

     I’ve got a lot of time and respect for Steffan Browning and his consistent and persistent work on these issues.

     Penny Bright
     • dpalenski 6.2.1

       18 March 2014 at 2:07 pm

       I think he and Steffan Browing were at an event once and Steffan Browing bumped into him and spilt coffee all over him and didn’t apologize so Tamati was like ‘what a bastard I’ll nitpick this guy until he’s out parliament’ or something to that effect
       • Chooky 6.2.1.1

         18 March 2014 at 5:39 pm

         lol
7. Te Reo Putake 7

   17 March 2014 at 9:18 pm

   Quick question to Green party members: why isn’t Mark Servian on this list? He’s easily the most effective non MP in the GP, so why is he being snubbed?
   • Flip 7.1

     18 March 2014 at 8:32 am

     He has chosen to remove himself from the ranked list and run as an un-ranked candidate for Hamilton East.
   • toad 7.2

     18 March 2014 at 9:04 am

     Green candidates apply to go on the ranked list only if they want to be MPs. Other candidates stand in electorates as a platform to maximise the Green party vote in their electorate, but do not aspire to be MPs so do not go on the ranked list. When the final list is submitted they will appear on it, but listed alphabetically in positions below 41 which are obviously not electable.

     And before someone points it out, I know that realistically positions below 20 are likely not electable give current polling, but we can always hope.
   • SeanMartell 7.3

     18 March 2014 at 2:09 pm

     If you can get hold of today’s Waikato Times it’s in there, but because he didn’t have an electable position he thought it’d be better to pull out.

     Annoying though, because he was right- the greens really need a Waikato/central north island based MP.
8. outofbed 8

   17 March 2014 at 9:40 pm

   I think the most effective non MP in the GP is in fact James Shaw
   James put together the team that got 5 councilors elected at the Wellington local elections
   and also put the team together who relegated Labour to third Place in Welly Central.
   He has been rightly rewarded for this.
   Mark has been effective, but is paid staffer, so one would hope he was effective.
   To the best of my knowledge Mark has not been snubbed.
   • Te Reo Putake 8.1

     17 March 2014 at 9:55 pm

     Cheers, outofbed. I note that Shaw is number ten on the list, so almost certainly an MP post election. It seems weird that an ‘effective staffer’ and popular local organiser like Mark can’t even make the top twenty.

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