Post-US election post

Written By: - Date published: 6:07 am, November 21st, 2016 - 125 comments
Categories: us politics - Tags:

In order to free up Open Mike and Daily Review for other conversations we are asking that all discussion, posting of links etc on the US election go in this daily dedicated thread rather than OM or DR.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

There will continue to be author-written posts on the US election as well, check them out, usual rules apply there too.

125 comments on “Post-US election post”

  1. A few tweets and links from yesterday

    Monk: *writing bible* lord, the end is signaled by trumpets?

    God: I said Trump Pence

    Monk: Right. Trumpets.

    God: Fine. They'll get it.— Eldge (@Sickayduh) October 30, 2016

    400k Americans died in the 40s to destroy fascism. We remember them as "the greatest generation." I wonder what they'll call our generation?— Existential Comics (@existentialcoms) November 13, 2016

    "Appeasement is lazy evil". @RaybonKan is right, get ready for a shit storm https://t.co/yt2rebfyyM pic.twitter.com/Sx8nPj0Lf2— ɥɔsǝdɐd qoɹ (@ropata) November 16, 2016

  2. Siobhan 2

    Excellent speech from the man who should be President. Addressed to Obama….

    http://www.democracynow.org/2016/11/16/stop_the_dakota_pipeline_bernie_sanders

    But instead we have Trump.

  3. rhinocrates 3

    Some desperately needed humour:

    http://www.advocate.com/comedy/2016/11/16/randy-rainbows-first-post-election-interview-here

    Personally I think that he’s unkind to the Addams family.

  4. Macro 5

    JFK rang up Trump (as you do) to congratulate him on his win.
    Wikileaks got hold of the conversation, and has just released the transcript!
    Apparently Trump only said four words:
    “Who”,
    “Where”, and
    “You’re Fired!”

  5. joe90 7

    Baby steps….

    Trump surrogates are already citing Japanese internment camps from WW II as "precedent" for Muslim registry pic.twitter.com/DVnjtom0mc— Brendan Karet (@bad_takes) November 17, 2016

  6. You put your address in the wrong place. 8

    Pence’s home state fundies have started lining up their ducks to challenge to Roe v. Wade.

    An Indiana lawmaker plans to introduce a bill that would outlaw and criminalize all forms of abortion in Indiana.

    State Rep. Curt Nisly said Wednesday he will file so-called “Protection at Conception” legislation when the General Assembly convenes in January.

    Under his proposal, all abortions would be a crime and prosecutors could file charges against those who participate in the procedure.

    […]

    In situations in which a high-risk pregnancy endangers a woman’s life, he said the proposal would demand that a doctor try to save both mother and child.

    “The idea here is always, always try to save the baby,” Nisly said.

    Conservative activists emboldened by President-elect Donald Trump’s decisive victory in Indiana are already rallying behind the measure. While they acknowledge the proposal would face legal challenges, they’re holding onto hope that the composition of the bench could change before the case reaches the Supreme Court.

    http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/16/total-abortion-ban-proposed-indiana/93954670/

    • The Lone Haranguer 8.1

      Its interesting that those who oppose abortion (for reasons of morality/conservatism particularly) are not prepared to put their hands into their own wallets to help raise those “abortion survivor” children in such a way that they have a chance to excel educationally, socially, and financially.

  7. Siobhan 9

    “The age of Obama was the last gasp of neoliberalism. Despite some progressive words and symbolic gestures, Obama chose to ignore Wall Street crimes, reject bailouts for homeowners, oversee growing inequality and facilitate war crimes like US drones killing innocent civilians abroad.

    Rightwing attacks on Obama – and Trump-inspired racist hatred of him – have made it nearly impossible to hear the progressive critiques of Obama. The president has been reluctant to target black suffering – be it in overcrowded prisons, decrepit schools or declining workplaces. Yet, despite that, we get celebrations of the neoliberal status quo couched in racial symbolism and personal legacy. Meanwhile, poor and working class citizens of all colors have continued to suffer in relative silence.

    In this sense, Trump’s election was enabled by the neoliberal policies of the Clintons and Obama that overlooked the plight of our most vulnerable citizens….

    For us in these times, to even have hope is too abstract, too detached, too spectatorial. Instead we must be a hope, a participant and a force for good as we face this catastrophe.”

    -Cornel West.

    I’m too computer illiterate to figure out how to do bold, so I shall just say Please Note the last paragraph, which I think is excellent.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/17/american-neoliberalism-cornel-west-2016-election

    • ropata 9.1

      +1 Fantastic piece.
      Cornel West is one guy I agree with 100%…
      & if I find myself disagreeing with him on something, I am probably wrong 🙂

      This lethal fusion of economic insecurity and cultural scapegoating brought neoliberalism to its knees. In short, the abysmal failure of the Democratic party to speak to the arrested mobility and escalating poverty of working people unleashed a hate-filled populism and protectionism that threaten to tear apart the fragile fiber of what is left of US democracy. And since the most explosive fault lines in present-day America are first and foremost racial, then gender, homophobic, ethnic and religious, we gird ourselves for a frightening future.

      What is to be done? First we must try to tell the truth and a condition of truth is to allow suffering to speak. For 40 years, neoliberals lived in a world of denial and indifference to the suffering of poor and working people and obsessed with the spectacle of success. Second we must bear witness to justice. We must ground our truth-telling in a willingness to suffer and sacrifice as we resist domination. Third we must remember courageous exemplars like Martin Luther King Jr, who provide moral and spiritual inspiration as we build multiracial alliances to combat poverty and xenophobia, Wall Street crimes and war crimes, global warming and police abuse – and to protect precious rights and liberties.

      Prophetic words.

    • Infused 9.2

      Obama was fucking useless.

      Obama care is costing more.
      Lead wars (with Clinton at his side) in Syria and Libia. And tried to incite the overthrow of Assad using a fake chemical weapons attack
      Did the stupid Iran deal

      He will go down as one of the most useless presidents.

  8. Andre 11

    Trump is going to stop wasting money on stupid wars in the Middle East. Oh yeah. That’s why this guy is a top contender for Secretary of State.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/john-bolton-regime-change-iran-secretary-of-state_us_582df81be4b030997bbe0d67?section=us_politics

  9. McFlock 12

    Fuck

    In response to trump’s victory, a German politician calls for independent nuclear deterrent by EU. Basically expanding british and french capabilities with EU money. I’ve never heard of the guy, but after a quick google he doesn’t seem to be a fringe nobody in german politics.

    While not technically a hit to non-proliferation, making an independent combined EU project (like the Typhoon) presents another series of issues:

    1) it increases the EU stockpiles and takes them from a token deterrent into a significant geopolitical complication – would it make unilateral EU use more likely if they have a system less dependent on US support?

    2) how it would work with brexit is another matter

    3) would the next upgrade to the UK fleet be more compatable with eu than usa? Is it a hit to that “special relationship”?

    • rhinocrates 12.1

      Not just the EU.

      http://gentleseas.blogspot.co.nz/2016/03/trumps-moderation-and-japans-nuclear.html

      Can’t cut and paste, but in essence, Japan has much of the infrastructure needed for a nuclear force, including the ability to produce plutonium and dual-use rockets used for satellite launches that are solid-fueled, and closely modelled on the American MX ICBM

      Japan is constitutionally prevented from developing offensive forces and is a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but there’s long been pressure to change that, intensifying in recent years even before the election of Fuckface von Clownstick. There seems to be a “just in case” theoretical capability, pluse the industrial ability to make it real.

      http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/fukushima-anniversary/japan-has-nuclear-bomb-basement-china-isnt-happy-n48976

      Solid fuel rockets are rugged, give high acceleration and can be launched at short notice as they are already pre-fueled. They play a minor role in civil applications (as strap-on additions to the first stage usually) because they are comparatively inefficient, while liquid fuels require lengthy fuelling immediately prior to launch, which makes them militarily useless.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon_(rocket)

    • rhinocrates 12.2

      The UK’s strategic nuclear deterrent is submarine-based. It is currently developing a new Dreadnought class (to replace the current Vanguard class) along with the Americans with their Columbia class (successor to the current Ohio).

      It is deeply dependent on America. Virtually identical missiles and warheads will be used (as previously). The missile tubes come in modules of four and test articles have already been constructed. The Dreadnoughts will have 12 (down from 16) and the Columbias will have 16 (down from 24).

      http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2016/october/21/161021-famous-warship-name-restored-for-first-successor-boat

      I don’t expect more to be funded above the four boats planned for the Royal Navy – the programme has been very controversial and very expensive.

      The only other European nuclear power at present is France, with their own submarine-based missiles.

      In addition, the UK and France are collaborating on a large UAV strike aircraft capable of carrying tactical nuclear weapons. BAE Systems (which is building the Dreadnoughts) and Dassault are the industrial partners and have already flown demonstrators with stealth capabilities (called Taranis and Neuron).

      Germany has expressed a desire for a strike aircraft to follow on from the ageing Tornado and may buy into the French-British system.

      Many defence, political and industrial agreements between European (geographically-speaking) exist outside the structure of NATO and the EU. Brexit is irrelevant to these individual programmes.

      So far there has been no significant, permanent EU armed force, only temporary co-operation. NATO does that job. The main problem would be that EU-member nations have many separate treaties and alliances and fellow nations would be reluctant to be drawn into one nation’s conflicts through the EU.

      That’s as thing stand now of course. What happens next will develop from that base.

  10. rhinocrates 13

    On how “identity” has become a sneer term for some on the paleoleft who need to be taught how to walk and chew gum at the same time.

    (Inevitably refers to the US election but not solely – Australia is covered also. Relevant to the appropriation of class politics by demagogues worldwide and the challenge facing the progressive left as a result)

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/18/class-and-identity-politics-are-not-mutually-exclusive-the-left-should-use-this-to-its-benefit?CMP=soc_567

    It’s easy for rightwing populists and their journalistic supporters to portray trickle-down campaigns for social justice as elitist and snobby and irrelevant to ordinary people. But what would be the consequences of an anti-sexist campaign that oriented to the bottom of society rather than to the top?

    Think, for instance, of the provision of quality, affordable childcare – a key demand of the women’s liberation movement in the 70s. For the rich, of course, childcare’s a non-issue. If you’ve got the money, it’s always been available. But for working class women, decent childcare can be life changing, removing a major source of social stress and bringing to an end a common form of drudgery.

    It’s not hard, then, to see the outline of a class-based campaign against sexism, one that would unite ordinary women and men for a demand that would materially change family life for the majority of society.

  11. joe90 14

    Apparently Trump’s fine with same sex marriage but he’s certainly looking to make LGBT Americans second class citizens in their own country.

    The First Amendment Defense Act is the nuclear version of the so-called “religious freedom” laws that have appeared across the country, most infamously in Mike Pence’s Indiana. The Republican House will surely pass it, the Senate will pass it unless it’s filibustered by Democrats, and President-elect Trump has promised to sign it.

    If it becomes law, FADA will be the worst thing to happen to women and LGBT people in a generation.

    […]

    But those stories are a red herring. The more important cases are ones like hospitals refusing to treat LGBT people (or their children), pharmacies refusing to fill birth control prescriptions, businesses refusing to offer health benefits to a same-sex partner, and state-funded adoption agencies refusing to place kids with gay families. Underneath the rhetorical BS, that’s what FADA is all about.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/16/the-gop-s-anti-lgbt-anti-women-religious-freedom-law-on-steroids.html

  12. joe90 15

    So, foreign leaders will be forced to take a punt and guess whether or not Trump means what he says.

    Katsuyuki Kawai, an adviser to Abe sent to set up the Trump meeting, said he had spoken to several Trump advisers since arriving in Washington on Monday.

    “I have been meeting with so many top aides to the president-elect and also I have been meeting with the very distinguished senators and congressmen and they unanimously told me that we don’t have to take each word that Mr. Trump said publicly literally.”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-newsnow-japan-idUSKBN13C1E3

  13. joe90 16

    I guess the Korea Herald editorial calling for Seoul to take operational control of South Korean forces and begin uranium enrichment is all part of know nothing’s Trump peace dividend.

    South Korea should prepare for Commander In Chief Trump

    In times of crisis, victory favors the prepared.

    It is time for South Korea to prepare for the US President-elect Donald Trump to become the US commander in chief.

    […]

    Secondly, South Korea should begin uranium enrichment to develop weapons grade plutonium, by first abrogating the agreement for cooperation between the government of the Republic of Korea and the government of the United States of America concerning peaceful uses of nuclear energy.

    South Korea could mirror Japan by stockpiling enriched nuclear material to be used in a crash program for nuclear weapons development in a time of crisis. This is prudence not proliferation. South Korea could remain a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, while being one more state that has nuclear weapons potential but chooses not to weaponize.

    http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2016/11/16/0301000000AEN20161116000700320.html

  14. joe90 17

    The outsider’s draining the swamp, so his Wall Street owners can feather their own fucking nests, again.

    Donald Trump, the candidate, was blunt: “Hedge fund guys are getting away with murder.”

    But Donald Trump, the President-elect, is going a bit easier on the hedge funders — to huzzahs from the industry.

    In Trump, hedge-fund types are finally getting their day in Washington. One of their own, Steven Mnuchin, is even a contender for Treasury secretary.

    […]

    “That nonsense is ending: the anti-banking cabal and the screed of hatred for people that live on Wall Street,” Anthony Scaramucci, a well-known money manager who is on the transition team, said last week following Trump’s victory.

    […]

    Rebekah Mercer, the daughter of hedge-fund magnate Robert Mercer, is on Trump’s transition team. The elder Mercer’s Renaissance Technologies has been trying to resolve a multi-billion-dollar tax dispute with the Internal Revenue Service. Carl Icahn, the corporate-raider-turned-activist-investor, has also backed Trump, hoping the candidate will rein in Environmental Protection Agency rules, which he says harm refiners like CVR Refining LP, where he has a controlling stake. His wife, Gail, has been named to the inauguration team.

    Financial-industry executives are pressing Trump to roll back a range of regulations that they say throttle business. A prime target is the post-crisis Dodd-Frank Act, which proponents say makes the financial industry safer. Others include rules requiring investment professionals to put their clients’ interest before their own when giving retirement advice.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-17/mr-hedge-fund-goes-to-washington-looking-for-ally-in-trump?

  15. Andre 18

    Draining the swamp. So he can scoop up the bottom-feeders.

    “The man who President-elect Donald Trump will nominate as the 84th attorney general of the United States was once rejected as a federal judge over allegations he called a black attorney “boy,” suggested a white lawyer working for black clients was a race traitor, joked that the only issue he had with the Ku Klux Klan was their drug use, and referred to civil rights groups as “un-American” organizations trying to “force civil rights down the throats of people who were trying to put problems behind them.” ”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-attorney-general-jeff-sessions-racist-remarks_us_582cd73ae4b099512f80c0c2?cn5id4ygk5rf9lik9

  16. joe90 19

    Trump’s preferred National Security Advisor might be lucky to make it through confirmation hearings.

    .

    Retired Army Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, President-elect Donald Trump’s preferred choice for National Security Advisor, was running a company that was lobbying on behalf of foreign clients even as he was receiving classified intelligence briefings during the campaign.
    The revelation comes as the Trump camp has taken a series steps to curb the involvement of lobbyists in the presidential transition efforts.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/18/politics/michael-flynn-donald-trump-national-security-advisor/index.html?

    Seems Flynn is a fan of MGTOW…….

    Here's our new Nat Sec Adviser boosting an alt-right icon who talks about creating "super-sperm" that the ladies supposedly can't resist pic.twitter.com/Xwb8Lc2kSs— Sohrab Ahmari (@SohrabAhmari) November 18, 2016

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/18/politics/kfile-flynn-tweets/index.html

    …..and he makes mistakes, too.

    Retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn accused presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton of corruption in cahoots with Jewish people on Twitter on Sunday, in a message he promptly deleted.

    […]

    Flynn wrote that “the corrupt Democratic machine will do and say anything” to get Clinton elected. “This is a new low,” he said, retweeting a message that read: “Not anymore, Jews. Not anymore.”

    He has since apologized for the retweet, calling it “a mistake.”

    http://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/Donald-Trump/General-Flynn-responds-to-Russia-accusation-with-anti-Semitic-tweet-462256

    • dukeofurl 19.1

      Except you are totally wrong.
      Presidents Whitehouse staff are NOT confirmed by Senate

      • joe90 19.1.1

        So, I’m be overly optimistic. Perhaps you’d like to weigh in on the the boil on my arse, too.

        • dukeofurl 19.1.1.1

          Optimistic?
          The only bit of your own opinion apart from cut and paste is wrong.
          Your response is nonsense as well.

          Post Truth World, meet one its foot soldiers

  17. joe90 20

    Know nothing’s Trump peace dividend – an all out assault on civil liberties through increased surveillance and human rights abuses as policy via indefinite detention, black sites and torture.

    And drone strikes, lots and lots of drone strikes.

    President-elect Donald Trump has tapped Republican Rep. Mike Pompeo of Kansas to head the Central Intelligence Agency, putting a hawkish lawmaker who favors brutally interrogating detainees and expanding the American prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in charge of America’s premier spy agency.

    […]

    But Pompeo’s extremely hawkish views on critical national security issues, such as his support for keeping open the US prison at Guantanamo Bay; his defense of brutal CIA interrogation practices like waterboarding and “rectal feeding”; and his overwhelming focus on the dire threat of “radical Islamic terrorism” — all positions closely aligned with those of President-elect Trump and his new national security adviser, Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn — suggest he is not likely to be a particularly sobering or restraining force on the president-elect, particularly when it comes to controversial policies like torture and drone strikes.

    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/18/13676756/mike-pompeo-trump-pick-cia-director

  18. Pasupial 21

    CGP Grey’s excellent videos on the Electoral College have been updated (the link is to 2011’s part 2: “The Trouble with the Electoral College”, but you easily can get the other links from there – you just need to watch this one first for the others to make any sense). If you too have been having trouble explaining this archaic hodge-podge of a system to others, and online sources have proven impenetrably technical, then let stick-figures do the talking:

  19. joe90 23

    Trump’s America. (video inside)

    Learn to defend against a bigot grabbing your hijab from behind. pic.twitter.com/up0QicbLHo— Hijabi Queens (@HijabiQueens_) November 18, 2016

    • weka 24.1

      That’s intense.

      • Karen 24.1.1

        It may seem exaggerated but unfortunately I fear it is not. I like her line at the end:

        “If you are brave, stand up for others. If you cannot be brave – and it is often hard to be brave – be kind”.

        • weka 24.1.1.1

          I don’t think she’s exaggerating 🙁 I follow her on twitter, esp through BLM, she seems solid in her analyses. We don’t know how this is going to turn out, because there are so many variables, but I don’t think the intent of Trump and his people is in dispute.

          Great last line.

  20. joe90 25

    Trump’s AG nominee.

    In the Democratic primary of September 1984, FBI agents hid behind the bushes of the Perry County post office, waiting for Turner and fellow activist Spencer Hogue to mail 500 absentee ballots on behalf of elderly black voters. When Turner and Hogue left, the feds seized the envelopes from the mail slots. Twenty elderly black voters from Perry County were bused three hours to Mobile, where they were interrogated by law-enforcement officials and forced to testify before a grand jury. Ninety-two-year-old Willie Bright was so frightened of “the law” that he wouldn’t even admit he’d voted.

    In January 1985, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, the 39-year-old US Attorney for the Southern District of Alabama, charged Turner, his wife Evelyn, and Hogue with 29 counts of mail fraud, altering absentee ballots, and conspiracy to vote more than once. They faced over 100 years in jail on criminal charges and felony statutes under the VRA—provisions of the law that had scarcely been used to prosecute the white officials who had disenfranchised blacks for so many years. The Turners and Hogue became known as the Marion Three. (This story is best told in Lani Guinier’s book Lift Every Voice.)

    https://www.thenation.com/article/jeff-sessions-trumps-pick-for-attorney-general-is-a-fierce-opponent-of-civil-rights/

    • Macro 25.1

      But to defend a man facing rape charges because the Court directs to, is absolutely heinous!

      /sarc

  21. joe90 26

    Trump’s AG nominee.

    Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.), one of Donald Trump’s staunchest supporters and most visible surrogates, said that he does not consider the behavior Trump described in a 2005 video, in which he brags about physically forcing himself on women, to be sexual assault, a comment that drew swift blowback from critics.

    The Weekly Standard reported that Sessions made the remark in the post-debate spin room in St. Louis on Sunday night.

    “This was very improper language, and he’s acknowledged that,” Sessions said, according to the Weekly Standard.

    The publication followed up: “But beyond the language, would you characterize the behavior described in that as sexual assault if that behavior actually took place?”

    Sessions replied: “I don’t characterize that as sexual assault. I think that’s a stretch. I don’t know what he meant —”

    “So if you grab a woman by the genitals, that’s not sexual assault?” asked the reporter.

    “I don’t know. It’s not clear that he — how that would occur,” Sessions replied.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/pb/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/10/trump-supporter-sen-jeff-sessions-reportedly-said-behavior-trump-described-in-2005-video-is-not-sexual-assault/?outputType=accessibility&nid=menu_nav_accessibilityforscreenreader

  22. rhinocrates 27

    Post Trump, stocks in US arms companies have surged (in other news, the sea has been observed to be large, blue and wobbly):

    http://aviationweek.com/defense/incoming-what-watch-trump-administration

  23. Macro 29

    God! The US is going to be a fucken disaster when he lets all those harebrained idiots out! One can only hope that there are still some sensible and responsible Rebublicans left in the Senate and House to give some restraint to their brainfarts, but somehow I doubt it. The US, and lets face it, the rest of the world to some extent, is going to be a cot case after this “administration”. That is, if they allow the herd to unelect them. I can see tyrant and dictatorship clearly on the horizon.

  24. Karen 30

    Well, all white supremacist and neo-nazi groups couldn’t be happier with Trump’s picks for key positions. It’s like a dream come true evidently.

    https://thinkprogress.org/white-nationalists-on-trumps-attorney-general-pick-it-s-like-christmas-caf3a87353f5#.c3635w5sh

  25. joe90 31

    Vile people.

    Here's Ivanka saying advantage itself is an imaginary concept because she, Ivanka, had to go to school pic.twitter.com/4vYcyqFNok— Jia Tolentino (@jiatolentino) November 18, 2016

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cxk0uKHW8AAmPMw.jpg

  26. TheExtremist 32

    The new American Attorney General – please take a bow:

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_57fbb902e4b068ecb5e06988?

  27. KJT 33

    Brian Tamaki is wrong.

    The Kaikoura quakes were Gods punishment for electing Trump.

    Unfortunately, God was educated at a US charter school and thought New Zealand is part of rural USA.

    • Pasupial 33.1

      Well, to be fair, our PM does act like; “New Zealand is part of rural USA”, so the mistake is understandable.

  28. Red 34

    Waaa waaa get over it trump won fair and square, the bleating going on here is worse than at childcare Bernie would have done no better, probably worse than Hills, the US where hardly going to vote in an old socialist howling at the moon

    • TheExtremist 34.1

      I don’t think anyone is bleating that Trump didn’t win fair and square. It’s now about what he is going to do as president.

      • Red 34.1.1

        It will be fine

        • TheExtremist 34.1.1.1

          Unless you want an abortion.

        • Pasupial 34.1.1.2

          Is your pseudonym derived from the Square from where your instructions issue, Red? However, even if it’s not your native language, you might want to brush up on your English – at the moment it just comes across as gibberish. Reading the other comments before typing helps too.

  29. Pasupial 35

    This is a couple of days old, but I haven’t seen anyone else link to it. Rall is a fairly scathing cartoonist/ essayist who called the election for Trump way back before the debates. Though a lot of that is because he regards Clinton as a war criminal (which seems synonymous with ex-Secretary of State these days), but I’d argue that the only reason Trump isn’t yet is that he hasn’t had the chance:

    Barack Obama deported two million — more than any other president. Thousands of kids lost their parents. Yet demonstrations were few. Anglo solidarity was nowhere to be found. Same action, different reaction. Why? As we’ve seen under Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, progressives go to sleep when Democrats are in the White House.

    Trump will be deplorable. But as the unrest that followed his victory signals, he’ll have a salutary effect on American politics: Liberals will resist the same fascist horrors for which they’ve been making excuses under Obama (and would have continued to tolerate under Hillary Clinton).

    Ironically, their struggle will be made all the more challenging due to the fascist moves promulgated by Barack Obama, a president revered by liberals — but whose administration has been characterized by a stream of fascist policies.

    http://rall.com/2016/11/17/fascism-under-trump-began-with-obama

    Though the link tag would be better as; “fascism-under-trump-began-with-obama-bush-and every president since Carter (or even before that)”. Consider the prevalence of eagles and fasces in USA government iconography:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces#Fasces_in_the_United_States

    • Olwyn 35.1

      For the reasons you have broadly outlined, I think that Bernie Sanders has the right idea: (1) Renew the Democrats, root and branch, so as to end up with a party that does not abandon those who should be its constituents. (2) Support Trump (supposing he is serious) in opposing Wall St and harmful trade deals, raising the minimum wage, reducing the cost of medicine and similar. (3) Fight tooth and nail against Trump where he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic, etc. policies.

      At the moment the seismic plates are moving fast on the political front. Some people want to laud Trump’s victory because at last someone has beaten the establishment, although Syriza has shown how short-lived that can be, even if true. Others see this stance as absolute heresy, since Trump stands for everything they hate. The danger from the first response lies with letting Trump bask in the glory of having defeated the establishment, even if he quietly succumbs to its demands and adds to its victims. The danger of the second is to run screaming from the scary-trumpy-Trump-thing straight into the establishment’s soothing embrace, so that an economic system that is failing so many ends up being reinforced.

      • Karen 35.1.1

        Olwyn, I agree with 1 and 3 but I am astonished by 2.

        This is a corrupt kleptocrat who refused to disclose his tax returns, whose record as an employer is appalling, whose charity foundation is a scam, who has put close members of his family in charge of his financial empire and has them along to meetings with foreign leaders, whose tax policy will increase the wealth of the top tier and make the bottom 25% pay more and you honestly think that any of the things you list in 2 are going to happen?

        How can you compare Syriza with Trump? And really – there are not just two options here. I find your last sentence really patronising and demeaning to all those of us who are actually terrified of the what a Trump victory could bring.

        • Olwyn 35.1.1.1

          All I am saying is, I agree with Bernie that sticking with the things that matter is crucial. And if Trump does keep promises that really do improve people’s lives, then it is not wrong to support him in that. You seem to be saying that he is not going to. Well, if that turns out to be the case, then Bernie of course will not support him at all. Here is one of several articles on this – note the conditional “if”:

          http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/17/politics/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-allies/

          • Bill 35.1.1.1.1

            I agree Olwyn.

            Sanders, Trump, Corbyn, SNP, Podemos, Farage, Syriza etc all ran or run on being anti-establishment.

            All have been or are vigourously opposed by the establishment.

            Some are more anti-establishment than others and some, unfortunately but predictably, will or would doubtless make the establishment look like a breath of fresh air.

            No programme that any of them will or would implement will be wholly good or wholly bad. Each will have good and bad elements Even where the over-arching framework is beyond the pale, any good thing, no matter how incidental or accidental should be supported. And the opposite is also true. Where the over-arching framework is progressive, blind loyalty ought not to see bad shit being supported.

            • Karen 35.1.1.1.1.1

              If you can put together that list of people and say they are linked by being anti-establishment then the term “ant-establishment” is too broad to be useful IMO.

              • Bill

                How so?

                We know roughly what we mean when we say ‘the establishment’, yes? Opposition to it can come from (very broad brush stroke coming up) a socialist left or a fascist right.

                So when someone claims to be ‘anti-establishment’ we first have to ask ourselves if they genuinely are, and then depending on the answer to that, we have to ask whether their change would entail a move towards some kind of fascism for the 21st C or some kind of socialism for the 21st C.

                And even when the only change on the table points towards a 21st C fascism, (arguably the case in the US) we’ve got to acknowledge that many people feel so ‘done over’ by past decades that they’ll take a punt on that change – any change – over voting to endure more of the same.

                And instead of stupidly blanket condemning those voters as red-necks or racists or whatever and seeking cover in some renewed political expression of the very establishment that’s just been rejected, we need to propose a better alternative.

                The establishment’s dead. The task of shaping the alternative is up for grabs.

        • Olwyn 35.1.1.2

          And I should add that my comparison of Syriza to Trump is a limited one – they both won elections from anti-establishment positions. I agree that their positions are in fact diametrically opposed.

      • Pasupial 35.1.2

        Olwyn
        About the only consolation I’ve seen from this election is that the Trump administration would require a supermajority to change the constitution, so any changes they make are likely to be reversible in the future. The provisional appointment of; Preibus, Sessions & Romney demonstrate that Trump’s claim to being anti-establishment is illusory.

        However tempting it might seem to start afresh, the USA system gives immense advantages to the two main parties. Renewing the Democratic party does seem the way to go. The choice between Dean and Ellison as DNC chair may be an early sign of how that is likely to go.

        Karen
        I think point 2 is paraphrasing something Sanders said about achieving what is still possible within the legislature. Rather than going the Republican/ Gingrich route of threatening to shut down the government when they don’t get their own way. I don’t think he used the phrase; “support Trump” though.

        • Olwyn 35.1.2.1

          Renewing the Democratic party does seem the way to go. I agree. My fear is that people will get so worried about Trump that they will end up accepting the continuation of the neoliberalism’s TINA doctrine. Which is why I am relieved at Bernie’s stance.

        • Andre 35.1.2.2

          It also seems a tiny consolation that there’s no longer any “Royal Family” members hanging around the Democrats waiting their turn at the top slot. That I can think of anyway. No Kennedys in the wings, Chelsea doesn’t look that way inclined (so far).

  30. greywarshark 36

    A informative speaker on radionz this morning on the trump election. Some of it will be known but still interesting to hear how they find their target voters and thoughts in general such as that Bernie Sanders might have given Trump a run for his money but for a couple of points against him, unlike Clinton who had a multitude of points against her.

    Horace ‘Chip’ Mann – Reflections of a Republican
    politics
    about 1 hour ago
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201824573

    Long-time Republican campaign strategist, Horace ‘Chip’ Mann talks to Wallace about why the recent US presidential campaign was unlike anything he’s ever seen before – and gives his perspective on… Audio

  31. Bill 37

    Politician enters a public space and people make their disapproval of him apparent. El Presidenti elect then castigates the public for ‘harassing’ his mate.

    Well. Since when did politicians get this notion of servile deference into their heads? Dear Donald Fuck…off.

    The tweets..
    “Our wonderful future V.P. Mike Pence was harassed last night at the theater by the cast of Hamilton, cameras blazing.This should not happen!”

    And…
    “The Theater must always be a safe and special place.The cast of Hamilton was very rude last night to a very good man, Mike Pence. Apologize!”

    Interesting that Pence walked into a place where his presence was only ever likely to raise hackles. That Trump follows it up with some holier than thou ‘poor victim’ bullshit doesn’t auger well if it’s the beginning of a pattern….first cast your potential victims in an unfavourable light. Then victimise.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/19/mike-pence-booed-at-hamilton-performance-then-hears-diversity-plea

  32. joe90 38

    A bit of a fix-up and this November 1964 essay could well have been written in November 2014.

    ;

    The basic elements of contemporary right-wing thought can be reduced to three: First, there has been the now-familiar sustained conspiracy, running over more than a generation, and reaching its climax in Roosevelt’s New Deal Obama Care, to undermine free capitalism, to bring the economy under the direction of the federal government, and to pave the way for socialism or communism. A great many right-wingers would agree with Frank Chodorov, the author of The Income Tax: The Root of All Evil, that this campaign began with the passage of the income-tax amendment to the Constitution in 1913.

    The second contention is that top government officialdom has been so infiltrated by Communists Muslims that American policy, at least since the days leading up to Pearl Harbor 9/11, has been dominated by men women who were shrewdly and consistently selling out American national interests.

    Finally, the country is infused with a network of Communist Progressive agents, just as in the old days it was infiltrated by Jesuit Communist agents, so that the whole apparatus of education, religion, the press, and the mass media is engaged in a common effort to paralyze the resistance of loyal Americans.

    http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/?single=1

  33. adam 39

    The one appointment which wipes the floor C.V.’s arguments about trump. Rep. Mike Pompeo at head if the CIA.

  34. joe90 40

    Meanwhile, in Scamelot DC, a blind trust runs an hotel……

    In the less than two weeks since Donald Trump’s victory in the presidential election, there have already been several news stories that illustrate how Trump’s new role atop the U.S. government will create conflicts of interest with his family businesses. The latest alarming example comes via the Washington Post, who report that about 100 foreign diplomats packed into a junior ballroom at the new Trump International Hotel in D.C. this week to drink Trump-brand champagne and hear a sales pitch for the new hotel. Unsurprisingly, a chief topic of discussion among the attendees so soon after Trump’s victory was, “how are we going to build ties with the new administration,” and one way to do that seemed more than clear:

    “Believe me, all the delegations will go [to Trump’s hotel],” said one Middle Eastern diplomat who recently toured the hotel and booked an overseas visitor. The diplomat said many stayed away from the hotel before the election for fear of a “Clinton backlash,” but that now it’s the place to be seen.

    In interviews with a dozen diplomats, many of whom declined to be named because they were not authorized to speak about anything related to the next U.S. president, some said spending money at Trump’s hotel is an easy, friendly gesture to the new president.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/diplomats-are-lining-up-to-do-business-at-trumps-d-c-hotel.html

    • Andre 40.1

      Not to mention how the Secret Service will be paying Trump to fly on his airplane while they’re protecting his kids.

      http://www.sltrib.com/home/4588470-155/how-trump-can-make-money-off

      Wonder if it will be like the way his campaign suddenly started paying a lot more to rent space in his tower once other people’s money started coming in?

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-campaign-rent_us_57bba424e4b03d51368a82b9

      • joe90 40.1.1

        He’s got a couple of months to square the hotel thing and then tax returns excepted, it’s going to be four long years of FOI requests.

        In an exclusive exchange with ThinkProgress, Richard Painter, a University of Minnesota law professor who previously served as chief ethics counsel to President George W. Bush, says that Trump’s efforts to do business with these diplomats is at odds with a provision of the Constitution intended to prevent foreign states from effectively buying influence with federal officials.

        The Constitution’s “Emoluments Clause,” provides that “no person holding any office of profit or trust under” the United States “shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.”

        The diplomats’ efforts in seek Trump’s favor by staying in his hotel “looks like a gift,” Painter told ThinkProgress in an email, and thus is the very kind of favor the Constitution seeks to prevent.

        https://thinkprogress.org/trump-poised-to-violate-constitution-his-first-day-in-office-george-w-bushs-ethics-lawyer-says-73e14789a935#.jz9mktdol

        Now that Donald Trump is President Elect of the United States, a whole new world of FOIA possibilities begins to open up. But first, some bad news.

        Now that Donald Trump is a federal employee, can we FOIA his tax returns from the IRS?

        Yes, there are a lot of documents you can get regarding government employees through the Freedom of Information Act. But, barring a massive reinterpretation of existing laws, their federal tax returns are not one of those documents.

        https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2016/nov/15/foiaing-trump-presidential-transition/

        • joe90 40.1.1.1

          Trump is the swamp.

          In the nine days since Donald Trump won the presidential election reports have surfaced that he considered seeking top secret clearances for his three oldest children, and in some instances their spouses – requests that would be unprecedented if true. Trump also seems to be standing by a plan to place his children in charge of the Trump Organization’s “blind trust,” an arrangement that could be riddled with potential conflicts of interest.

          The relationship is also cause for concern given previous disclosures that appear to show Trump using government contracts to enrich his children.

          Documents won three months ago in response to a FOIA appeal show that during Donald Trump’s re-development of the taxpayer-owned Old Post Office building in downtown D.C. into a luxury hotel, Trump “funneled money to his children through separate companies bearing each of the children’s names, and the document indicates that those companies did not invest money. Nevertheless, their stakes could earn the children a big chunk of any profits generated from the taxpayer-owned site.” BuzzFeed further noted when the story was originally reported in August that despite the fact the building is owned by the public, many of the key documents in the deal were heavily redacted, forcing BuzzFeed to file an appeal.

          https://nsarchive.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/foia-and-donald-trump-frinformsum-11182016/

  35. joe90 42

    This is how military command structures are undermined in banana republics.

    ;

    The heads of the Pentagon and the nation’s intelligence community have recommended to President Obama that the director of the National Security Agency, Adm. Michael S. Rogers, be removed.

    The recommendation, delivered to the White House last month, was made by Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter and Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper Jr., according to several U.S. officials familiar with the matter.

    […]

    The news comes as Rogers is being considered by President-elect Donald Trump to be his nominee for director of national intelligence to replace Clapper as the official who oversees all 17 U.S. intelligence agencies. In a move apparently unprecedented for a military officer, Rogers, without notifying superiors, traveled to New York to meet with Trump on Thursday at Trump Tower. That caused consternation at senior levels of the administration, according to the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal personnel matters.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/pentagon-and-intelligence-community-chiefs-have-urged-obama-to-remove-the-head-of-the-nsa/2016/11/19/44de6ea6-adff-11e6-977a-1030f822fc35_story.html

    • dukeofurl 42.1

      What do you mean ‘without notifying superiors’ ??
      hes a 4 star admiral they dont normally get their movements OK by anyone. ( they would normally have their working time scheduled quite closely, so if he goes to Trump Tower or goes to NZ it has to be fitted in)
      He seems to be head of a grab bag of cyber snoops so is highly qualified to move up.
      Whether its wise to promote him is different to saying ‘he didnt notify anybody’- which just shows the writers ignornace.

  36. joe90 43

    Here come the theocrats,

    I thought it was bad enough when Dr. Ben Carson, an evolution and climate change denier, was being considered as the next Secretary of Education. (His business manager Armstrong Williams later said Carson didn’t want the position because he “has no government experience” and would not want to “take a position that could cripple the presidency”… even though that didn’t stop him from campaigning to be the President.)

    Trump’s alternatives, however, are no better. The Associated Press reports that another possibility for Secretary of Education is Liberty University President Jerry Falwell, Jr., who recently met with Trump to discuss the role:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/11/20/creationist-jerry-falwell-jr-met-with-donald-trump-about-a-possible-dept-of-education-position/?

    • Andre 43.1

      Idiocracy, here we come.

      • adam 43.1.1

        Actually Andre I disagree, many of trumps appointments are very smart people. Case in point, Rep. Mike Pompeo, a very, very clever man. Nasty as a rattlesnake, and as vindictive as they come. But don’t call him and his ilk – dumb.

        • Andre 43.1.1.1

          You’re very unfair to rattlesnakes. Leave them alone and they won’t bother you. In fact, they’ll go out of their way to leave you alone if they become aware of you in time.

          But put Carson or Falwell in charge of education, and America will indeed be dumbed down.

          As for Trump’s other buddies, viciously cunning seems a better description than smart.

      • Garibaldi 43.1.2

        “Trump will destroy America, Clinton will destroy the world ” was a well known saying during the campaign. It may well be working , but only time will tell . I’m hoping it turns out that way.
        Don’t forget Obama has a lot of ‘undesirables’ in his team ie. it is not just Trump who “knows how to pick ’em”.

        • Andre 43.1.2.1

          In 2004, the war in Iraq was widely considered to increase Bush’s chances of re-election. Because Americans don’t like changing leaders during war, and that the WMDs was a lie hadn’t got much traction yet. I can’t think of any incumbent presidents fighting a war that lost their re-election bids.

          Do you think Trump’s team aren’t aware of that? Or that they would hesitate to trump up an excuse to start a war if they thought it would benefit them?

        • joe90 43.1.2.2

          I’m hoping it turns out that way.

          Trump’s line up of Islamophobic, misogynist, xenophobic, jingoistic, science denying religious fanatics as probable appointees mean women are going to be denied reproductive autonomy, an almost guaranteed all out assault on civil liberties through increased surveillance, widespread disenfranchisement of minority voters, registration and internment of religious groups and whole swathes of folk, LGBT, POC, anybody wearing religious garb, living in fear of an authoritarian theocratic regime.

          Out on the streets of America emboldened KKK, Neo-Nazis, and anti-Semitic White Nationalists are busy chanting hate and intolerance,

          And don’t for a moment think you and I will be unscathed by the policies of the Wall Street financiers Trump’s going appoint to to run the shop.

          Oh, and with the likes of Pompeo, Cotton, Bolton and Flynn running the war machine expect human rights abuses as policy via indefinite detention, black sites, torture, and drones, lots of drones, and regime changes.

          But you’re hoping it turns out that way.
          //

          • Karen 43.1.2.2.1

            Thanks for this joe90.

            I really didn’t know where to start when I read that line. Appalling.

            • dukeofurl 43.1.2.2.1.1

              Ignore him. hes a post truth fantasist.

              • joe90

                hes a post truth fantasist.

                Do tell…?

              • Garibaldi

                To joe90, dukeofoil and Karen.
                Are you trying to tell me that the Democrats are nice honest people? Are you claiming that American Foreign Policy is benevolent, or at worst, benign?
                Whatever the govt, Dems or Repubs, we get the same results – perpetual war from the greatest military machine the world has ever known.
                So why not break Americas back – I’m sick of their wars and their “exceptionalism” ie. they think the rules apply to everyone but them ,and that they are indispensable in this world.
                The sooner their hegemonic demands on the world are lessened the better.
                Their empire is dying and history teaches us to beware the dying empire. This is why I would like to see America pull its head in, rather than start a nuclear war.

                • dukeofurl

                  I would as a general point, not disagree with what you are saying about about their perpetual wars.

                • Karen

                  I have opposed US foreign policy for decades, under both Democratic and Republican governments, but if you think that Trump will bring an era of peace and love to US foreign policy then you are seriously deluded. The decisions will be different but they will be even more devastating. The chances of nuclear weapons being used has actually increased with Trump’s election – not by Russia or US but by others.

                  Your statement suggests you don’t care about the millions of people within the US who will suffer under his regime because of some kind of “we have to destroy the village in order to save it” theory. Putting neo-nazis into positions of power is horrific and I cannot understand anyone who has any sense of humanity thinking this is okay.

                  Have a read of this – it may make you reconsider your position.

                  http://whowhatwhy.org/2016/11/18/dark-view-flyover-country/

                  • Garibaldi

                    Karen, I beg to differ on your choice of Hillary as the” lesser of two evils “. The America Hillary wanted to continue promoting is sick to the core. It is candy coated corruption and anyone who thinks their model of democracy(not) is the way to go is nuts.
                    Also it is delusional to think that the current corporate market capitalism the west is wedded to will be capable of doing anything meaningful about CC. That, imo, is actually the main reason why we have to see the American model collapse and why I agreed with CV that Hillary was not really an option.
                    I have no idea what we will all have to suffer going through it all , but I would rather have a little more time than what Hillary was ‘offering'(ie. nuclear war).

          • Bill 43.1.2.2.2

            If all of that happens or begins to unfold with no, or only muted resistance, then …

            But if all that happens or begins to unfold and is met with an increasingly organised response, then it’s possible that the current way of the US is destroyed and a new, better US rises in its place.

            Not saying that’s what Garibaldi meant, but it’s what I’d be meaning if I said I hope it works out that way – ie – that “Trump will destroy America”.

            But whatever. A continuation of the Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Obama trajectory is off the cards. That’s either going to turn out well or turn out badly depending on a number of factors, not least, how people respond. The future’s up for grabs folks. 😉

            • joe90 43.1.2.2.2.1

              The future’s up for grabs folks.

              Burn the fucking house down with everyone inside. No thanks.

              • Bill

                I concur. Burning the fucking house down with everyone inside would be kinda extreme and stupid. How about not burning the house down, but creating a better place for all of us while abandoning the house to its own inevitable collapse?

                edit. If it’s on fire, it’s the ‘owners’ who provided the match…Repugs, Dems, their stenographers as media outlets etc. Let it be and let it burn. But help get people out of that space.

              • Bill

                Something like this? That isn’t about swapping out the establishment’s elites (a la Trump, Farage and others) but that is genuinely anti-establishment – ie, that’s hopeful and empowering.

                One recent poll [Spanish] suggests that 21% of Mexicans would vote for a Zapatista candidate. And considering that no major media outlets have supported the idea (or the Zapatistas, for that matter), this figure is pretty impressive. It shows that at least a fifth of Mexican voters are ready to try something completely different.

                http://www.thecanary.co/2016/11/19/anti-establishment-politics-realer-before/

            • Garibaldi 43.1.2.2.2.2

              Thanks Bill.

  37. rhinocrates 44

    Grauniad Long Read on Thick Orange Puke’s appeal in (very) white midwestern US. It’s a good, in-depth article, but very narrow too. Indeed, the study was deliberately limited to that demographic for “clarity”. I’m not sure how useful that actually is. The writer clearly struggles to separate factors at play (such as drastically declining voter turnout, the disparity between the electoral college and popular votes and despite supposedly being a Satan-worshipping robot lizard on her deathbed, Clinton won the popular vote by a clear margin).

    https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2016/nov/16/how-trump-took-middletown-muncie-election

  38. rhinocrates 45

    Neo Nazis love their Orangegruppenfuhrer:

    http://www.npr.org/2016/11/20/502719871/energized-by-trumps-win-white-nationalists-gather-to-change-the-world?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social

    Loyalists of the self-described white nationalist, alt-right movement from around the country gathered in D.C. Saturday afternoon, enthused by the election of Donald Trump and optimistic that their controversial, offensive views such as calling for a white, ethnocentric state were on the rise throughout the country.

      • Bill 45.1.1

        I’m getting a bit tired of these kind of reports already.

        Yes. A lot of people who voted for Trump are scum or just plain fucked. But why give them and their bullshit any coverage or oxygen, never mind this kind of facile nonsense?

        Where’s the fucking analysis from the liberal establishment on its own failings and on why so many people (not scummy) voted for Trump over a continuation of a Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Obama trajectory? (It’s not rocket science, so maybe simple acknowledgement as they step away into the shadows of history rather than any hand wringing bullshit analysis of the type I’ve seen)

        And why the implication that we all have a simple choice that boils down to a Trump or back to the way things were? Fuck that on both counts.

        • Olwyn 45.1.1.1

          Bryce Edwards seems to have started thinking about where to go from here. It was surprising to see this piece in the NZH – you would not have seen anything like it pre- US election: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11749955

        • Andre 45.1.1.2

          Everybody that got all starry-eyed and said fuck voting for either a slightly less crap or slightly more crap version of the status quo, vote for an ideal that’s got no chance of happening, needs the regular reminder that this is the entirely predictable consequence. If that’s too tough for you, I’m sure you can just scroll on past.

          If you really think there’s an alternative that’s got a chance of getting voted in by the electorate, go ahead and make the proposal, and build the groundswell. But I strongly suspect that if we gathered together all the people here on The Standard that seriously want to blow it all up and replace it with something dramatically different, there would be very little agreement on what that “something different” truly looked like. So until the fringe gets it’s shit together, variations on the status quo are the best we can realistically hope for.

          I’m aware you’ve made some proposals. But you may wish to consider this: politically I’m probably closer to you than at least 95% of the population, but in my opinion your free petrol proposal was so far away from what’s going to be acceptable to the general population that it’s not even worth engaging in the argument.

          • Bill 45.1.1.2.1

            Edited because although the first para in your comment bears no relation to anything I’ve said anywhere Andre, your comment comes around to attack some stuff I did say. So I’m guessing the first para is meant as a criticism of me too. Really dishonest of you. Anyway, back to original comment as it stood.

            I’ve said it before, but I think Gareth Morgan may well intend to ‘blow it all up’ by positioning as ‘anti-establishment’. What that would actually mean is open to all types of interpretation and agreement/disagreement.

            Limiting myself to the rest of the English speaking world –

            The SNP rode and continue to ride anti-establishment sentiments.
            Sanders got a lot of traction in the US.
            Corbyn is in the same vein.
            Trudeau (cynically?) tacked to the left of ‘The New Democratic’ Party and cleaned up in Canada.

            All the above is leaning leftwards.

            Then there’s Spain and Greece and, I just read today, Mexico, where avowedly anti-capitalist (not just anti-establishment) political movements have gained (sometimes lost again) or are gaining widespread support/momentum.

            As for the petrol posts. I never claimed those posts constituted proposals that would be adopted by any of today’s NZ political parties. I merely pointed out what was possible in terms of thinkable scenarios that took reality into account and that could achieve results in line with what the science of climate change says is necessary. Meanwhile, I haven’t seen anything from anywhere that would even come close to delivering the cuts we need in fossil related energy use. Nothing.

            Have you?

            • Andre 45.1.1.2.1.1

              Sure, Trudeau and the SNP have won power (fairly limited in the case of the SNP). But to me they look like lefty versions of the establishment, hardly blow-it-all-up-and-start-again revolutionaries.

              I’m grateful that neither New Zealand nor the US have conditions bad enough for blow-it-all up revolutionaries to really get traction (despite the best efforts of Nats and Repugs). Coz I’ve seen the aftermath of a couple and it’s ugly. I’m not aware of any genuine removals of the establishment in recent history that can be considered to have a good outcome for most of the population. The closest we’ve had to that in New Zealand was 1984, and the results of that are a mixed bag at best.

              In any case, the big point I seem to be continually trying to make is that every time we forego a small step forward, because it’s not enough, and allow the other side to take their steps backward, the hill to climb just gets higher, steeper and less time to do it.

              That’s the case whether it’s voting for Stein or not voting at all because Hillary wasn’t good enough (allowing Trump to get in), or totally rejecting the idea of a carbon tax because it won’t be enough on it’s own (which allows emissions to climb unhindered). At least one of our commenters here that has very specific issues where there’s clear differences between parties, but won’t vote because none of the parties are good enough to earn that vote. At the real decision point, it’s always better to go for the small gains now and work for bigger gains later, rather than forego the small gains and hope the other side will make things so bad it will all blow up. Coz that just ends up with smoking ruins.

              • Bill

                Who has been spouting any “blow it all and start again” revolutionary stuff? Not me.

                Fact is that the political landscape is fractured and that offers opportunities to make and lock in progressive change. What’s wrong with that, or frightening about that?

                I’m kind of picking up on a tendency by some to suggest that chaos and harm are the only options that exist besides a retreat to a comfortable set of norms that have been rightly and understandably rejected by a huge number of people because they’ve been hurting like hell for some years now and are confronted with zero prospects in their lives or for the lives of their children.

                Any attempt to retreat into that comfort zone of the past 40 years and shut down progressive ideas/politics (even the fairly ‘soft’ democratic socialist politics of a Sanders or a Corbyn – lefty establishment in the stead of a liberal establishment as it were) will result in a field day for Trump-like elitists. That’s when people will get hurt and worthwhile stuff will get destroyed….either straight off the bat or in response to a spiral of reaction and resistance.

  39. dukeofurl 46

    Interesting opinion story in NBR from way back when the TPP protests were going on
    https://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/open-letter-tpp-protesters

    The setup
    “Who has the power? WE have the power. This is what democracy looks like!”
    So went the chant of the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) protesters outside SkyCity’s

    yep thats about right
    “The reason “peaceful protests” don’t work anymore is because none of its participants have access to the machinery of power and, far worse, they let themselves be used by the machinery of power to become a slave and a battery. This machinery of power is the arm of the state commonly known as the media, and it controlled every step the protesters took this week.”

    “Most people don’t realise that inviting media coverage of a movement will not “get your message out.” It never does: Instead, it gets the NZ Herald or NBR’s message out. Pithy chants and bright placards stand no chance of being delivered as intended

    Its just more click bait is so true

    “I’ve noted in earlier pieces how the presence of the media at a protest is a sure indicator of the imminent failure of that movement. The media doesn’t care for nuance and reasoned debate: It wants a cage fight, because that makes for good clicking. The media’s job is to package a protest as a Manichean commodity,

    And the heart of the matter
    “Ideally you wouldn’t even start a protest in the first place, because if you had the power to change anything you’d go right for the jugular. You wouldn’t dawdle around the edges “getting your voice heard.” Playing inside a rule-box someone else created is to lose the game before it starts. So if a guy approaches asking you to sign something, punch him in the throat. He’s your enemy. Until you understand this, until you realise that what holds you back is your self-imposed slavery, until you know this – not feel it – you will never be powerful.”

    This not something I would normally follow , the NBR, but who knew nathan Smith could give such a powerful voice.
    I think hes wrong in some respects , mass protest can be effective, and I think hes right dont involve the media ( they probably report back to the police first)

    • Bill 46.1

      NZ’s a fairly shallow country news wise or media wise, and so the media can be used by activists if they’re smart about how they go about it.

      I agree that the chanting marchers with the fucking placards hitting the streets (again 🙄 ) is shite and achieves 5/8ths of fuck all. Smart and (dare I say!) fun, imaginative action that’s geared to gather momentum and appeal to an ever broader spread of people pulling in associated issues as it goes…

      It’s that or waste time and energy on building up yet another single issue cause …and another…and another…

      • Phil 46.1.1

        chanting marchers with the fucking placards hitting the streets (again 🙄 ) is shite and achieves 5/8ths of fuck all.

        I passed a small group of protesters on The Terrace in Wellington today at lunchtime. The thing that most struck me is there has been zero innovation in protest chants in at least 30 years; all chants are “One, Two, Three, Four. something something rhymes with Four. Five, Six, Seven, Eight, something something rhymes with Eight.”

        How about some innovation? Keep it fresh, people.

  40. Kellar 47

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2016/nov/17/diversity-can-distract-us-from-economic-inequality?CMP=share_btn_fb

    I’m sure this seems obvious to most of you, But This guy has summed it up nice and simply. If you disagree then lets discuss.
    I think basically, the left has been shut into a tiny corner of the political spectrum in most countries. while “fauxialism” has taken its place. for many it appears the same, but those who are losing out are frustrated and misplace their anger.
    What does having a female ceo really mean to the women working minimum wage in her company?

    • Bill 47.1

      I don’t read him as talking about the left. Way I see it, he’s talking about liberalism and liberals and their mainstream ‘messages’ or programmes’ that have sought to set ‘acceptable bounds’ or acceptable limits on the horizons of ‘the left’. In terms of electoral politics they were sadly, quite successful. (Blair, Clinton, Clark et al)

      But as he writes, it’s over. And not a moment too soon either.

      Far from being in a corner, even the electoral left can blossom, now that it’s free from the erstwhile dominating ‘consensus’ that was given life by liberals and liberalism. .

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