Reds under the beds

Written By: - Date published: 8:17 am, November 6th, 2014 - 82 comments
Categories: defence, human rights, Spying, war - Tags: , , ,

Governments have always used external threats (real or not) to expand their powers. Supposedly “small government” types seem the most keen to grab more powers, for some strange reason.

So now we’re going through another round. From RNZ this morning:

Law changes to tackle IS risk questioned

Experts are questioning whether new security measures being introduced by the Government to mitigate the threat of Islamic State outweigh the risks.

The Government … will also allow the Security Intelligence Service (SIS) to carry out video surveillance on private properties in cases of security concern. In emergencies they will be allowed to begin surveillance up to 48 hours before the issue of a warrant, with the approval of its director.
…
Mr Key said the changes will be subject to a sunset clause, but the proposed new legislation has raised concerns among academics.

Nigel Parsons, senior lecturer in the politics programme at Massey University, said it was easy to overstate the risks being posed to New Zealand. “Once civil liberties are gone, once powers of surveillance are increased, those powers are typically difficult to roll back and those liberties are difficult to reclaim,” he said.

Robert Ayson, professor of strategic studies at Victoria University, said there was a threat to New Zealand, but questioned whether it was being painted as more than it really was. “When you are talking about video surveillance before a warrant has been granted that starts to test whether we are willing to sacrifice our democratic values in order safeguard them.”

Given that we are not told what information our security services hold, and given their poor record on such matters in the past (Ahmed Zaoui, Urewera Raids), we the people have every reason to be suspicious of this latest round of “reds under the beds”.

Supporting terrorism is already illegal in NZ, and as Espiner asked Brownlee in his interview this morning (audio), if there is evidence that this is happening, have people have been arrested? Brownlee’s answer? No.

There is then no evidence available to the public of dangerous activity occurring in NZ, and no case for expanding – yet again – the surveillance powers of the state .

82 comments on “Reds under the beds ”

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  1. Tracey 1
    6 November 2014 at 8:21 am

    I am thoroughly enjoying your return as an author. dont burn yourself out.

    • Macro 1.1
      6 November 2014 at 8:37 am

      amen! to that Tracey. r0b take note. 🙂
      We are in greater danger from our “Security” that from terrorists. And there are already more than enough laws to deal with espionage against the state and the country. Key’s beating of the drum and rattling of sabres is nothing less than war mongering for no good cause. His words and at actions make us less safe. NZ has just voted itself into war.

      • Colonial Rawshark 1.1.1
        6 November 2014 at 9:27 am

        Our intelligence and security services claim to be utterly unable to do their job of protecting our democracy within a normal framework of laws, regulations and standards.

        Instead, they are telling us that they can only do their jobs if they are effectively immune from virtually all normal requirements of democracy, accountability and decency. That is, if they are granted powers and rights unrivalled by any other citizens or even government institutions.

        We should be careful what kind of mindset we are breeding in these powerful professionals, in this country.

        This is the creation of an untouchable security and surveillance state (using the flimsiests of pretexts – its like they’re not even trying to justify themselves), and it will come back to bite our idiotic self serving politicians in the arse.

  2. Tiger Mountain 2
    6 November 2014 at 8:51 am

    The state snooping brief has moved on from cold war times. International economic and corporate issues are significantly where it is at now.

    Yep, those “big government is the problem” types sure do like spending the ‘long suffering’ tax payers dollars on surveillance, union busting, policing and prisons.

    • hoom 2.1
      6 November 2014 at 9:20 am

      And ‘nanny state’ proscriptive safety restrictions on Adventure Tourism of all things.

      Personally I’m happy to have solid safety restrictions but its completely opposite of the ‘market will provide & unsafe operators will go out of business’ mentality they are happy to inflict on stuff like child poverty or housing…

      • Tracey 2.1.1
        6 November 2014 at 9:24 am

        why parents and other adults dont “get” that adventure tourism carries inherent risks is beyond me.

        • phillip ure 2.1.1.1
          6 November 2014 at 9:57 am

          once again tracey..difficult to see yr ‘point’..

          ..are you advocating no safety-standards..?

          ..that they ‘know’..so it’s on their own heads..?

          ..what are you actually saying..?..

        • JanM 2.1.1.2
          6 November 2014 at 10:24 am

          It emanates from the same mindset that has seriously curtailed the freedom of children compared to my own upbringing in the 50s/60s. Imagine now being allowed to just walk out the gate and join your mates for a day with only a sheepdog’s whistle from your mother as a call to lunch and dinner (she was famous throughout the neighbourhood for that).
          Children are now seen as ‘possessions’ and tend therefore to be locked up and overprotected. There is an ongoing tension in my profession as an early childhood teacher between offering enough physical challenge and accident prevention.

          • Tracey 2.1.1.2.1
            6 November 2014 at 10:34 am

            yup. And there were protections in place for adventure tourism. yes sometimes they fail but the reaction is often by parents wanting their children to build character and become leaders but wonder why that must involve risk and pushing physical and personal boundaries.

            • b waghorn 2.1.1.2.1.1
              6 November 2014 at 11:50 am

              I would imagine that lashing out at tourism providers would be a very normal reaction to the grief of losing a child

              • Tracey …
                6 November 2014 at 12:46 pm

                so would i, but not all deaths are created equal, are they…

                like those who die cos they were at work.

          • M Scott 2.1.1.2.2
            6 November 2014 at 1:14 pm

            I grew up in East Africa. One day our primary school headmaster said at assembly that children who walked to school across a nearby valley and river should tell their parents to bring them to school for a the next week or so because there was a leopard in the valley. Nobody told their parents and even children who didn’t live across the valley went that way.
            A boy in my class was spat at by a cobra and got venom in his eye while playing marbles outside the school hall. The kids took him to the staff room where they bathed his eye in milk and eventually someone phoned his mother who took him to the doctor. I still check myself from whistling and stamping when I walk through long grass… the only safety precaution we ever took against snakes.

            • Tracey 2.1.1.2.2.1
              6 November 2014 at 1:27 pm

              before we get too glassy eyed about the old days…

              homosexuals were beaten regularly
              sexual and domestic abuse was going on unchecked behind nice whiteclosed doors
              women were being medicated for being dissatisfied with their lives
              rape was legal inside marriage
              and so on…

              only parts of the good old days were good. some were bad.

            • JanM 2.1.1.2.2.2
              6 November 2014 at 3:38 pm

              cool stories 🙂

        • Molly 2.1.1.3
          6 November 2014 at 8:18 pm

          Was at the Treetops adventure park a month before the fatal accident.

          Was surprised to see that those participating had been told to put one carabiner on their harness, when using the flying fox. This meant that there was only one point of contact on the wire – if that failed then there was no safety backup.

          Stupidly, I didn’t think to take this up with the instructors later – busy at the time with entertaining two underage children on the ground, but had assumed that SOP’s had been set, and audited by some type of OSH department.

          Was only after the accident discovered that this was not the case.

          I agree that people need to accept the inherent risk in some activities, but with the proviso that if you are to accept money from people for such activities a basic audit with a competent government department should occur before the doors open.

          In this case, the instruction eliminated a basic safety backup. This would have been picked up by an independent audit – or – alternatively, by someone like me that noticed an anomaly and had the inspiration to take it to the operators – as I should have.

  3. mac1 3
    6 November 2014 at 9:05 am

    “Supposedly “small government” types seem the most keen to grab more powers, for some strange reason.”

    This is worthy of a post in itself.

    • Colonial Rawshark 3.1
      6 November 2014 at 9:31 am

      They want small anaemic government unable to challenge the corporate elite. They want big muscular government to act on behalf of the corporate elite.

      I think that’s as long as the post needs to be.

      • Tracey 3.1.1
        6 November 2014 at 9:39 am

        they want small govt as a kind of middle management forcorporate elite

      • Wensleydale 3.1.2
        6 November 2014 at 6:11 pm

        And let’s not forget that they want to control everything, without having to fund it. All of the power with none of the risk.

      • Murray Rawshark 3.1.3
        6 November 2014 at 9:24 pm

        I’d add one detail. They want the ordinary worker to pay the bills, but they’re quite happy to have the muscular part done by private companies. I’m thinking of Serco and the mercenaries that Shearer loves so much.

    • JanM 3.2
      6 November 2014 at 10:26 am

      They’ve been watching too much American television, I think 🙂

  5. Tracey 5
    6 November 2014 at 9:13 am

    it is almost like… hysteria?

  6. hunter 6
    6 November 2014 at 9:15 am

    If IS didn’t exist the establishment would have to invent them.

    • Tracey 6.1
      6 November 2014 at 9:18 am

      exactly….

      • Colonial Rawshark 6.1.1
        6 November 2014 at 9:31 am

        The Huns, Reds under the Bed, Maori separatists, Al Qaeda cells in your home town etc.

        • Tracey 6.1.1.1
          6 November 2014 at 9:35 am

          greenpeace…

          • phillip ure 6.1.1.1.1
            6 November 2014 at 10:09 am

            nah..!..greenpeace are safe..

            ..they just focus on whales ‘n stuff..

            ..they never challenge the animal-exploitation paradigm..

            ..or the vivisectors..

            ..they are no real threat..

            ..shit..!..they have bbq’s…f.f.s..!

            ..how to stand around emoting about some animals..

            ..whilst chowing down on some others..

            ..(apparantly it’s a favoured-species-ranking..)

            ..and within themselves..

            ..seemingly irony-free…

            [lprent: I’m getting tired of you pushing a vegetated lifestyle in posts that have bugger all to do with it. If it has nothing to do with the post, then put it in OpenMike, don’t try . I’m going to start doubling on this one if I think that you are starting to repeat this behaviour.

            Banned for 2 weeks for deliberate diversion in posts. ]

            • Tracey 6.1.1.1.1.1
              6 November 2014 at 10:36 am

              quiet day in open mike?
              needing to distract from the topic somewhere else?
              not feeling it’s about U enough?

            • minarch 6.1.1.1.1.2
              6 November 2014 at 12:47 pm

              “nah..!..greenpeace are safe..

              ..they just focus on whales ‘n stuff..

              ..they never challenge the animal-exploitation paradigm..

              ..or the vivisectors..

              ..they are no real threat..

              ..shit..!..they have bbq’s…f.f.s..!

              ..how to stand around emoting about some animals..

              ..whilst chowing down on some others..

              ..(apparantly it’s a favoured-species-ranking..)

              ..and within themselves..

              ..seemingly irony-free…”

              Greenpeace are an ENVIRONMENTAL org Phil , not a Vegan one..

              you ever actually been to a Greenpeace BBQ Phil ? I have many times and they readily provide vege alternatives, you think you should have to be vege/vegan to work threre or something

              “..they are no real threat..”

              maybe you should look at what Greenpeace have actually achieved before you make judgements like that.

              • phillip ure …
                6 November 2014 at 12:57 pm

                “..you ever actually been to a Greenpeace BBQ Phil ?..”

                ..yes..

                “..readily provide vege alternatives..”

                ..so i was correct..and they still stand around emoting about one species..

                ..while happily munching down on other species..

                ..and you can’t see the contradictions/ironies in that..?

                ..really..?

                ..and what have greenpeace actually ‘achieved’..?..

                ..remind me..

                ..(bullet-points will suffice..)

                ..’cos to me/from out here.. greenpeace are like the greens in parliament..

                ..been there a long time..

                ..but difficult to see what they have actually achieved/changed..

                • minarch …
                  6 November 2014 at 1:07 pm

                  October 2014: After more than one million people respond to Greenpeace’s Save the Arctic campaign LEGO ends its 50 year link with Shell. On it’s website, LEGO published a statement committing to ‘not renew the co-promotion contract with Shell’.

                  February 2014: Budget giant Primark becomes the 20th major clothing company to commit to Detox – agreeing to eliminate hazardous chemicals from its supply chain by 1 January 2020. From luxury houses like Burberry and Valentino to retailers like Primark, this latest victory shows how big brands are listening to the global calls for fashion without pollution and taking steps to create a toxic-free future.

                  January 2014: British luxury brand Burberry made a commitment to eliminate the use of hazardous chemicals from its supply chain by 1 January 2020. Burberry’s move comes after just two weeks of people-powered campaigning on the brand’s social media channels, reaching an audience of millions, while Greenpeace volunteers held protests at stores from Beijing to Mexico City. Burberry joins 18 big brands like Zara, Valentino and H&M who have committed to Detox their clothes and manufacturing processes

                  or how about these

                  1972: After the first Greenpeace action in 1971, the US abandons nuclear testing grounds at Amchitka Island, Alaska.

                  1975: France ends atmospheric tests in the South Pacific after Greenpeace protests at the test site.

                  1978

                  1978: Greenpeace actions halt the grey seal slaughter in the Orkney Islands, Scotland.

                  1982: After at sea actions against whalers, a whaling moratorium is adopted by the International Whaling Commission.

                  1982: EC bans import of seal pup skins in response to public criticism triggered by Greenpeace actions in Canada.

                  991: The 39 Antarctic Treaty signatories agree to a 50-year minimum prohibition of all mineral exploitation, in effect preserving the continent for peaceful, scientific purposes.

                  Theres plenty more Phil, but i think you already know that…

                  • Tracey …
                    6 November 2014 at 1:29 pm

                    and they will be under surveillance

                    • minarch …
                      6 November 2014 at 3:29 pm

                      they have been under surveillance for a long time already…

                      in fact they almost got taken to employment court when they sacked an undercover police officer who had infiltrated the org not that long ago..

            • phillip ure 6.1.1.1.1.3
              6 November 2014 at 1:26 pm

              see ya dude…

              ..ban me for two weeks..and i’m gone..

              ..get yr energy elsewhere..

              [lprent: You can just picture my complete indifference.

              Either way the annoying behaviour is curbed as far as I am concerned. I don’t have to keep wasting my time stopping on comments while moderating to look at how this odd topic popped up in a post about something completely different. It bores me. I am sure it bores others.

              Of course you do have the option of making such comments in OpenMike or in posts on the topic. All that takes is simple willpower, and I wouldn’t care about that either.

              Or you could just deal with the great rush of commenters to your site to read the words missing on this site 😈 ]

        • phillip ure 6.1.1.2
          6 November 2014 at 9:59 am

          then of course there are those economic-terrorists…

          ..those trying to tear down the foundations of our animal-exploitation economy..

          ..those bloody vegans..!

          • b waghorn 6.1.1.2.1
            6 November 2014 at 11:55 am

            When you get enough people to eat only nuts and leaves then farmers will grow nuts and leaves its called market forces I believe.

            • phillip ure 6.1.1.2.1.1
              6 November 2014 at 12:10 pm

              james cameron is showing the way forward with that..

              ..he has bought large dairy-holdings in the wairarapa..

              ..and is in the process of turning them back into real food-growing farms again..

              ..and the interesting thing is that he is experimenting with lots of different crops..

              ..to find which works best in that post-dairy environment..

              ..and he is/will be putting the results of those growing-experiments online..

              ..available to anyone to use..

              ..and yes..it is/will be ‘market-forces’ that will help kill the dairy-industry.(c.f.global-glut predicted for next five yrs..)

              ..i actually laugh out loud now when i hear these idiots from fonterra predicting the price will rise again..to fufill their hysterically-optimistic predictions..

              ..and their crash and burn will be spectacular..

              ..that and knowledge about the health-implications from using dairy becoming more widespread..

              ..will pretty much seal the deal..

              ..then of course there is the mu-free milk-made-without-hurting-animals/yr health coming on the market next yr..

              ..looks like..tastes/cooks/cheese-makes like..doesn’t need fridge..

              ..minimal environmental-footrint (esp. compared to cow-milk..)

              ..and much cheaper that the cow-based product..

              ..face it..the dairy industry is fucked..

              • phillip ure …
                6 November 2014 at 12:30 pm

                the dairy industry in nz at this moment is like the stable-owners/bridle-makers of yore..

                ..everywhere/relied upon by everyone..

                ..and trying to just ignore the first cars nosing around corners/hoving into view..

                ..of course..those most leveraged..and so reliant on that high price to even survive/meet their commitments..that price that won’t be coming back..

                ..they will be the first to fall..

                ..and the small/barely-economic now will be next..

                ..(there will be some really cheap rural land coming up..)

                …and what really concerns me..is how so much treaty-settlement money is being poured into what is a sunset-industry..

                ..and bound to fail..

                • b waghorn …
                  6 November 2014 at 12:41 pm

                  When comes to the money side of farming the banks are the best farmers around they make the real profits and the buggers don’t even get dirty . I ‘m quiet sure the would work on the theory that if some farmers aren’t failing they aren’t pushing them hard enough

                • red blooded …
                  8 November 2014 at 12:54 pm

                  Phillip, you have a valid point to make – just don’t try to hi-jack a thread; it only pisses people off. (And before you ask – yes, I am a vegan and have been for most of my life – I wouldn’t bring this up in a discussion about small government versus government intrusions into private lives of citizens, though. How is it relevant? )

              • b waghorn …
                6 November 2014 at 12:35 pm

                Good luck to Cameron I’d be interested to know how much movie money he’ll pump into it and weather it will scew the facts. But as far as fuck the dairy industry goes iv’e been around long enough to know it goes in a 5-7 year cycle . (I’m a shepherd now but was raised on a dairy farm and worked in dairy for 6 years)

        • The Pink Postman 6.1.1.3
          7 November 2014 at 3:38 pm

          And now according to Key we have Muslems under the bed.

    • Coffee Connoissuer 6.2
      6 November 2014 at 11:23 am

      The US govt funded and armed IS in the beginning in Libya.

      • Tracey 6.2.1
        6 November 2014 at 11:32 am

        link or source?

        on another similar note

        “…U.S. officials have long denied acquiescing to Iraqi chemical attacks, insisting that Hussein’s government never announced he was going to use the weapons. But retired Air Force Col. Rick Francona, who was a military attachĂŠ in Baghdad during the 1988 strikes, paints a different picture.

        “The Iraqis never told us that they intended to use nerve gas. They didn’t have to. We already knew,” he told Foreign Policy.

        According to recently declassified CIA documents and interviews with former intelligence officials like Francona, the U.S. had firm evidence of Iraqi chemical attacks beginning in 1983 …”

        the us was happy for the chemical attacks to continue…

        http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_america_helped_saddam_as_he_gassed_iran

    • Murray Rawshark 6.3
      6 November 2014 at 9:26 pm

      They pretty much did invent ISIL.

  7. Iron Sky 7
    6 November 2014 at 9:40 am

    You wonder how Key knows who Rawshark is?

    They, my dear bloggers, know who you are, even with your tricky encryption.

    I could imagine Gerry and co snuggled under the bed covers with a computer, a box of tissues, 50 cases of mars bars and this software:

    Regardless, I wonder if there is legislation on this:

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/30/hacking-team/

    SECRET MANUALS SHOW THE SPYWARE SOLD TO DESPOTS AND COPS WORLDWIDE

    When Apple and Google unveiled new encryption schemes last month, law enforcement officials complained that they wouldn’t be able to unlock evidence on criminals’ digital devices. What they didn’t say is that there are already methods to bypass encryption, thanks to off-the-shelf digital implants readily available to the smallest national agencies and the largest city police forces — easy-to-use software that takes over and monitors digital devices in real time, according to documents obtained by The Intercept.

    The manuals describe Hacking Team’s software for government technicians and analysts, showing how it can activate cameras, exfiltrate emails, record Skype calls, log typing, and collect passwords on targeted devices. They also catalog a range of pre-bottled techniques for infecting those devices using wifi networks, USB sticks, streaming video, and email attachments to deliver viral installers. With a few clicks of a mouse, even a lightly trained technician can build a software agent that can infect and monitor a device, then upload captured data at unobtrusive times using a stealthy network of proxy servers, all without leaving a trace. That, at least, is what Hacking Team’s manuals claim as the company tries to distinguish its offerings in the global marketplace for government hacking software

  8. Jay 8
    6 November 2014 at 11:33 am

    We don’t and can’t know what the sis know, and we need to have some faith. This isn’t America or Russia or Germany, we are all kiwis that more or less hold the same values, and I don’t believe for a second these guys are despots wanting to subvert our rights. I’ve travelled a bit and kiwis are just. . . different. We just naturally think differently than a lot of others, these guys are quite ordinary, they have ordinary friends, they aren’t going to screw ordinary people.

    A select committee will look at this. Which the government don’t have to do remember, the fact they are gives me even more faith. Will be interesting to see what comes out of that.

    You can scream hysterically at me and call me naive, but let’s just wait and see cause only time will tell

    • Tracey 8.1
      6 November 2014 at 11:38 am

      keep telling yourself that jay, no matter what people try to show you, hang on to that belief that kiwis are immune…

      remember when the gcsb broke the law, so key changed it to make it okay? do you think they learned not to break the law, or something else.

      now, back to your imagining that kiwis are just different.

    • framu 8.2
      6 November 2014 at 12:26 pm

      i find it weird that almost everyone can agree that throughout history there have been some bad people who did bad things against other people. Some more bad than others.

      Yet when faced with the notion that these types of people still exist they deny it could happen

      Your being a naieve fool on this topic jay – not because you have a different view – but because your ignoring both history and what we know about present day activities

      Its your lack of suspiscion, critical analysis and blind acceptance that marks you as such.

    • Iron Sky 8.3
      6 November 2014 at 12:33 pm

      Jay, we all have opinions, try this out to test if we NZers are all created equal and just a bunch of easy going she’ll be right mate’rs. I wonder if “surveillance” was used on the various boards and CEOs?

      If this is true:

      In July 2013, Pike River Coal was ordered to pay $110,000 to each of the victims’ families and fined $760,000.[101] In the end it did not pay the fine and only paid $5000 to each family, saying it did not have the money.[102][103]
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_River_Mine_disaster

      +

      The proposed settlement means the Pike River company’s biggest shareholder, New Zealand Oil & Gas, will get about $38.3 million as a secured creditor and $3 million as an unsecured creditor. It had rights to more of the insurance payout but has agreed to a receiver’s plan to pay $10.5 million to unsecured creditors.

      NZOG’s remaining debt would be reduced to $14.7 million secured and $12.1 million unsecured. Yesterday NZOG shares closed up 3c to 71c.
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10751375

      Man, yeah, we live in a wonderful country.

    • Tracey 8.4
      6 November 2014 at 12:44 pm

      anyway jay, if we are different, we dont need the same laws as those others, right

    • minarch 8.5
      6 November 2014 at 12:49 pm

      “have some faith’

      hallelujah ! The SIS will provide,

      how much you tithing a week Jay ?

    • lprent 8.6
      6 November 2014 at 1:15 pm

      We don’t and can’t know what the sis know, and we need to have some faith.

      Why? They have a pretty good track record of monumental screw ups when we see stuff coming into public view.

      I personally don’t have that much faith in them.

    • Tracey 8.7
      6 November 2014 at 2:12 pm

      i think winston was referring to you, Jay, in this statement below

      “…Thursday, 6 November 2014, 1:44 pm
      Press Release: New Zealand First Party

      Rt Hon Winston Peters

      New Zealand First Leader
      6 NOVEMBER 2014

      Time for Some Recanting

      With confirmation that American spies are working in New Zealand, by a former head of the US National Security Agency last night, there is confirmation that they are based here, says New Zealand First.

      “This proves whistle-blower Edward Snowden right again,” says New Zealand First Leader Rt Hon Winston Peters. “Mr Snowden said, while he was in New Zealand, that there were NSA facilities here, and I confirmed that I knew the location of one base.

      “Of course, a certain faction of the commentators typically poured scorn on this confirming the old English adage, ‘the malady of the ignorant is to be ignorant without knowing it’.

      “However, on TV3’s 3rd Degree last night former deputy director of the NSA, Chris Inglis, confirmed NSA spies connection in New Zealand.

      “Logically, they must be based somewhere, but there are reasons why there is no street address listed on the internet, or on your GPS. And, former heads of NSA are not going to give the game away.

      “On the same programme, General Michael Hayden, former director of the NSA and CIA, might as well have said ‘yes’ when asked if there were bases on New Zealand soil.

      “Instead he claimed that would give ‘an expansive meaning’ to the word ‘base’, and added he would not say more on operational matters.” …”

      • karol 8.7.1
        6 November 2014 at 2:23 pm

        Full report of the content of the 3rd Degree programme here.

        Mr Key admitted that a test probe had been placed on the cable in 2013, probably not underwater but at one of two fortified landing points in something called Initiative 7418.

        So that would be at Takapuna (Northcote Road) or Hobsonville.

        3rd Degree has learned of a high-level technical meeting 18 months ago between engineers from the GCSB and Spark, formerly Telecom. What was on the agenda? Letting the spies get access to the company’s internet exchanges and nodes – effectively their whole network.
        “As part of our obligation, obviously we were consulted as to whether this was technically feasible and what our role would be. We said it is technically feasible but it will be difficult.”
        Since Spark’s David Havercroft told us that little secret, Spark and the GCSB have been falling over themselves to reassure us it all about cyber defence. That is fair enough. But why then did Alex, joint director of cyber security, know nothing of the meeting?

        And a lot more.

        • Tracey 8.7.1.1
          6 November 2014 at 2:35 pm

          a big corporation lying for the PM during an election campaign… never.

          thanks for the link.

          The complete lack of outrage and demands for Key to resign is telling.

        • KJT 8.7.1.2
          7 November 2014 at 4:14 pm

          If you want cyber defence you go to Microsoft, not the GCSB.

          Funny how in this case the usual suspects want “big Government”, not privatisation! Their answer to every other problem.

    • Andrea 8.8
      6 November 2014 at 4:21 pm

      “we are all kiwis that more or less hold the same values”

      Would you like a sarcasm emoticon to go with that?

    • Murray Rawshark 8.9
      6 November 2014 at 9:46 pm

      No Jay, I do not share your values. I think people like you are the problem, because all Key needs to do is drink a beer out of the bottle and burn some meat on a barbecue and you think he’s your mate. You think he’s not going to screw you. In reality, he won’t even use lube,

  9. Nic the NZer 9
    6 November 2014 at 12:19 pm

    Jay – we are all kiwis that more or less hold the same values

    Nic – The governments also been producing evidence that giving more money to beneficiaries results in them being able to get off the benefit.

    Jay – Why even say stuff like that.

    No Jay, we don’t have the same values at all.

  10. Tracey 10
    6 November 2014 at 1:19 pm

    i have been trying to read stuff offering alternative world views to the wests desire to “cure” extremism by war.

    the following is an intriguing article about how Iran, that evil enemy of the west may hold the answer.

    ..http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?fromval=2&cid=32&frid=19&seccatid=32&eid=174821…

  11. Iron Sky 11
    6 November 2014 at 1:39 pm

    The purpose of surveillance is to ensure the workers don’t go shopping for a new master with better terms! The elite hate it when there slaves start to think.

    We are being saved, thank you John and Gerry.

    Although George Carlin (RIP) does not make reference to surveillance, I think he sums the game up fairly nicely:

    http://www.alternativereel.com/soc/display_article.php?id=0000000019

    “Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice . . . you don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.

    They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying . . . lobbying, to get what they want . . . Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want . . . they don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that . . . that doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fuckin’ years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want?

    They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money.

    They want your fuckin’ retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it . . . they’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this fuckin’ place. It’s a big club and you ain’t in it. You and I are not in The big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy.

    The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people . . . white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means . . . continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t give a fuck about you . . . they don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t care about you at all . . . at all . . . at all, and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care.

    That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their assholes everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream cause you have to be asleep to believe it . . .”

    • Tracey 11.1
      6 November 2014 at 1:43 pm

      baby cheeses!

      “… It’s called the American Dream cause you have to be asleep to believe it . . .” GOLD

    • RedLogixFormes 11.2
      6 November 2014 at 1:55 pm

      I first saw this Carlin clip over a decade ago. It’s hugely vivid and memorable – and the message has stayed with me since. But if you take it too literally it’s a prescription for a rather bitterly cynical view of life.

      What I think Carlin wanted us to take away was the message in that last para. That it is our willful ignorance which enables the owner classes to get away with it. That the responsibility for this fucked up situation is 100% ours.

      The world view of the righties is summed up as “Life isn’t fair – suck it up”. Which is nothing more than a glib rationalisation, justifying the owners continued exploitation of us ordinary people.

      Our response is “Life isn’t fair – but it should be”. And this demands we grow a pair and take responsibility for making it so.

    • les 11.3
      6 November 2014 at 6:47 pm

      wonderful!

  12. Ad 12
    6 November 2014 at 3:56 pm

    Key’s moves have really been pretty mild compared to our comparator western democracies right now.

    But what makes it hard to trust these proposed intercept-and-film-without-warrant moves is National’s long incompetence with both metadata and personal data across multiple agencies, multiple reviews, and multiple years.

    And while it’s a Police matter rather than an SIS matter, it’s still relevant that Nicky Hagar’s house was searched for 10 hours. Hell am I looking forward to that warrant coming before a good stern judge.

    If the Police get away with that warrant like they have so far, that would send a real chill. Both the intelligence and enforcement communities would have been given simultaneous messaging that it’s simply all right to go hard on us liberal softc*cks.

    After that it’s really buckle in, and I for one would simply stop all activism and all activist communication for ever.

  13. Aerobubble 13
    6 November 2014 at 4:11 pm

    Governments make mistakes. And via those transgressions are moderated.
    Moderate government is the goal. Not too much deregulation least fascism of the wealthiest takes hold, not too much regulation less institutional committes of the people do. Turns out that efficient economies balance these two forces, reduce both the friction from wealthly private entities and also from over regulation.
    Scandinavian countries get beaten up over there efficient social liberalism, but really they are just more capitalistic than our cretinous rightwing elite, who never have to explain leaky homes, mine turned into a grave yard, such building code, etc

    We suffer from government too close to big business. Failure to moderate their neo liberal glee.

  14. Rolf 14
    6 November 2014 at 6:22 pm

    Any society that gives up a bit of freedom do gain a bit of security does not deserve either, and will loose both (Benjamin Franklin)

  15. Lorraine 15
    9 November 2014 at 11:49 am

    I’m shocked that on both sides of the spectrum there is so much self interest. If it isn’t effecting them they don’t wan’t to do anything about it. Was clear on Q+A this morning that the far left and the far right panel had both the same views. Unless it is effecting them personally they are not interested. They both thought that what created IS is bigger than the group so they thought it was an excuse to do nothing and gazing at their navels.
    People like that would have never got involved in WW2 or WW1 for that matter. I’m not saying that there wasn’t negative things about going into those wars but nothing seems to have been learned from history by these people. IS is a powerful force now because people were going hands off. These people will not even care when people are being beheaded in our country if those people are not related to them. I’ve never met such heartless people as I believe some people are these days. Such incredible self interest and too bad about anyone else seems to be the theme of this point in history.
    If not stopped IS will grow. It has a fantastic propaganda machine that is recruiting nutters from around the world. Had it been stopped 2 or 3 years ago we would not be dealing with this today. IS is committing genocide. Too many people have stood around gazing at their navels before while genocide was going on. Shame on those people who are willing to accept that and shame on those creeps that excused it today on Q+A this morning. I don’t care what political leaning a person has, when genocide is happening there is no time to wait. Too many times people have waited and millions of people have been brutally murdered.
    IS is not a political power it is a regime of sociopathic mass murderers. They have no ethics or compassion. Get it in your thick heads IS does not want negotiation. Just like a serial mass murderer doesn’t change no matter how much talk goes on. I really think many people as just so completely stupid about what they are dealing with in IS. The people being attracted to that organisation are converting to islam so that they can go satisfy their blood thirsty desire to brutally murder people. Those people are sociopaths in the first place.
    Just like Hitlers SS they are people who were bloodthirsty murderous people in the first place and Hitler bought them together. IS is doing the same thing. They are tapping into the kind of people who think about murdering people for their own pleasure. Take the islamic out of it and these guys are a bunch of murderous thugs. Stopping them has nothing to do with islam. It is about stopping people who are committing genocide.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1
      9 November 2014 at 12:56 pm

      In fact, the Left’s position is to abide by UN and Security Council resolutions and offer humanitarian aid.

      The right just wants to sell guns.

  16. Lorraine 16
    9 November 2014 at 12:48 pm

    To proved my point about IS members being sociopathic killers that are committing genocide just take a look at the majority of prisoners in NZ. Almost all would not go into the home of innocent people and head the babies and children of people. That is the domain of only the most extreme of violent people. People who are devoid of any compassion and humanity. People who brutally murder children come into a different category than you normal murderer. They men who are going over to fight for IS are in that category. They don’t have any humanity in them as are the people who are supporting IS. It is a Sociopathic murderous regime committing genocide who are recruiting people who think that being a sociopathic murder is a cool thing to be and they relate to that. Because the relate to that they are going to Syria and Iraq to join a bunch of other people who are also sociopaths who get a big kick out of heading anyone who does not belong to their sociopathic murderous group. Islam does not factor in that and probably 99% of the Islamic people in NZ would agree that IS has nothing to do with their religion. It is unfortunate that IS are using the word Islam in their name. They do not represent Islamic people any more than they represent anyone else except sociopathic psychokillers of people including innocent, children and babies.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 16.1
      9 November 2014 at 12:52 pm

      IS are competing with the National Party for sociopaths? I bet the National Party gets the lion’s share.

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