Running on empty

Written By: - Date published: 8:23 am, January 20th, 2023 - 180 comments
Categories: Carmel Sepuloni, grant robertson, jacinda ardern, labour, michael wood, violence against women - Tags:

When I heard that the Prime Minister was making a special announcement yesterday I experienced a sense of dread.

It seemed clear to me that she was not herself.  The effusive jubilant Jacinda of previous years had more recently appeared to become very tired and withdrawn.  Continuous threats and abuse on her were clearly having an effect.  Her earlier announcement that for safety reasons she would curtail normal campaign activities showed how bad things were.  You only have to witness Jacinda in a crowd and the level of aroha shown to her historically to realise that things were different for her.

The last few years have been unlike any other, with a natural disaster, a terrorism attack and a one in one hundred year global pandemic for her to cope with.  In the last five years she has probably done as much governing and important decision making that other leaders complete in a decade.

And she is a mother with a young child.  Especially at Neve’s age time with children is precious.  The out of control time demands on Jacinda were enormous and not consistent with leading a normal fulfilling life.

It must be remembered that she was a rarity amongst politicians.  She was a very reluctant leader and had to be begged and cajoled to take the job.

And she was also unique in that even during Labour’s factional times she conducted herself with dignity and did not engage in the type of shitty underhand activity that politics is renowned for.

The more recent level of vitriol shown to her was extreme.  This article by Anusha Bradley at Radio New Zealand describes it well.  About Jacinda’s decision to retire she says:

While it wasn’t explicitly stated, it’s hard to imagine the increasingly violent abuse directed at her was not part of the reason.

“It is no surprise to me at all … she could not, not be affected by this,” says Disinformation Project director Kate Hannah.

Ardern probably tops the list for the amount of vitriol endured by any political leader in this country, Hannah believes.

“In the earlier parts of her first term we got sort of commentary about her looks and her lack of perceived experience. The fact that sort of she was, you know, well spoken, and really good at communicating complex issues was kind of a slur against her.”

But in the last two years the misogyny and violence directed towards Ardern has not only increased in volume, but also become more dangerous, says Hannah, who studies online hate speech and disinformation.

“The language and imagery used to talk about the Prime Minister has become more violent, more vulgar, more crude and repetitive.”

According to a recent study, published just before Christmas, which charts the rise of misogynistic language towards female leaders and women in the public sphere, the most prevalent word used to describe the Prime Minister in these circles is “the C word, and the most prevalent visual image is of witchcraft.”

“And this is old data. This is data from the middle of last year. So it’s actually got worse.”

Another grim factoid from the paper shows the word “Neve” – referring to Ardern’s pre-school daughter – is also on the most prevalent list.

Helen Clark, no stranger to misogyny, has said this:

The pressures on prime ministers are always great, but in this era of social media, clickbait, and 24/7 media cycles, Jacinda has faced a level of hatred and vitriol which in my experience is unprecedented in our country …

Our society could now usefully reflect on whether it wants to continue to tolerate the excessive polarisation which is making politics an increasingly unattractive calling.”

Labour’s focus will be on selecting a new leader.  With Grant Robertson appearing to rule himself out Chris Hipkins may have the inside running although Michael Wood’s name has been mentioned.  The need for diversity will mean that if either of these persons succeed then either Kiri Allen or Carmel Sepuloni must have the inside running for Deputy.

As for Jacinda can I thank her for her sterling work over the past five years.  When the dust thrown up by Trumpian alt right anti vaxers and members of the farming community who refuse to acknowledge that climate change is even a thing settles down I am sure that she will be recognised as an exceptional Prime Minister who ruled during an exceptional time.

180 comments on “Running on empty ”

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  1. Peter 1
    20 January 2023 at 8:31 am

    Julius Caesar succumbed to a number of stabs, Jacinda Ardern to years of multitudes of pricks.

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2
    20 January 2023 at 8:37 am

    Aye . Jacinda was (still is !) a Gem in my estimation. Led NZ through some major bad shit.. that no other PM could even have approached. And the toxic, vicious attacks from fuckwits ….would have worn a lesser person down years ago.

    Best wishes Jacinda and family.

  3. Jenny are we there yet 3
    20 January 2023 at 8:37 am

    '

    "It must be remembered that she was a rarity amongst politicians. She was a very reluctant leader and had to be begged and cajoled to take the job."

    Greg Presland

    “Only those who do not seek power are qualified to hold it.”

    Plato

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/10158279-only-those-who-do-not-seek-power-are-qualified-to

    My experience in the trade union movement convinced me of this truism. Those who sought to become union delegates, were never as good as those workers who were pushed by their peers to become their representative.

  4. Tiger Mountain 4
    20 January 2023 at 8:47 am

    The PM also contracted COVID, a factor which should not be under estimated. One friend of mine said it felt like being hit by a truck, others less affected.

    The Labour Caucus is now on “last chance power drive” and have to do the things Jacinda would not for working class people–Wealth Tax, fully implement WEAG etc.

    NZ Labour has to be up front and get into attack mode–National ACT will reverse a whole lot of achievements for working class people since 2017 if they attain office.

    The Caucus will likely pick Mr Hipkins, I would like to see a contest, with Mr Wood and Ms Allan elected by the wider membership and affiliates.

    • SPC 4.1
      20 January 2023 at 9:06 am

      I'd retain GR in Finance and go with Hipkins, and save Wood and Allan for a rebuild after any defeat.

      A government's advantage is incumbency experience. And the electorate rarely likes to admit it got it wrong. Bolger and Clark are the exceptions. Bolger won in 1990 because Labour imploded. Clark won in 1999 because the National-NZF coalition fell apart.

      The Greens wealth tax is the way to go (less than 10% of people impacted). It's a way to maintain infrastructure investment and realise social goal objectives while managing down debt to GDP without adding burden to taxpayers.

  5. SPC 5
    20 January 2023 at 8:49 am

    In psychological operations it's called gangstalking prey and gaslighting the victim. It's of a design to create trauma (build up of stress).

    Ultimately to wear out someone's ability to mange the fight or flight response dynamic. It can be a sign of workplace bullying (not coming back for more after a summer break respite), in this case one of (Labour Party) political resistance to a neo-liberal regime.

    The hate for left wing women (and more so when of colour) for challenging patriarchy/privilege HC/GG/JA/NM here HC/AOC/RT/IO in the USA is palpable. And of course Barack Obama had his legitimacy to be a non white POTUS questioned by people like Trump when he was just a "celebrity".

    • Shanreagh 5.1
      20 January 2023 at 9:58 am

      Agree. Also important is to recognise the ‘boiled frog syndrome’* in all of this as well as the importance of the reflective summer break.

      So increasing levels of stress, insult, intolerance are experienced and dealt with until the break when the heat is turned off. When we ask ourselves is it worth it? Can I deal with this as well as the demands of the job?

      If there is bullying then those US RW inspired citizens know who to blame.

      Go well Jacinda Ardern, our Prime Minister, thankfully in the recent times when we particularly needed fine leadership.

      *
      The boiling frog syndrome is a metaphor describing how small hard-to-detect annoying changes in your environment can accumulate into a big threat. If not detected on time, these changes lead to a dramatic catastrophe you can’t avoid anymore. Unfortunately, this kind of phenomenon is common in our lives.23/03/2022

    • Anne 5.2
      20 January 2023 at 11:00 am

      In psychological operations it's called gangstalking prey and gaslighting the victim. It's of a design to create trauma (build up of stress).

      A perfect description. It was a deliberate and well thought through campaign of outright lies, distortion of facts, vitriol, stalking of their prey, threats of violence (even against her pre-school daughter) – all designed to increase the level of stress and anxiety for Jacinda. Anyone who has been through a similar process knows the effect it can have, and it sometimes takes years to fully recover.

      Much as I think Michael Wood would be the perfect antidote for the Party, it could be a too soon for him. He's not well known enough. We will see what transpires on Sunday.

      • Shanreagh 5.2.1
        20 January 2023 at 11:31 am

        Yes it is hard to come back from and yes it can come back to haunt you in later years.

        Had experience of this plus OTT restructurings in the Public Service, took early retirement then got a part-time job in a semi PS entity with lots of money. This dissolved into a blur of strangeness including pay being late and then resentment once I had handed my resignation in. Thoughtfully I gave ample notice but this just meant longer times of sighs and grumpiness.

        I said to my replacement make it a condition in your contract that the pay goes in on the day and that if that day falls on a weekend on the Friday before. She did.

        That was in 2017 and even now I still wake up suddenly with fear because my mind thinks it is a day I have to go to work.

        • Anne 5.2.1.1
          20 January 2023 at 3:49 pm

          Yes the Public Service had a lot to answer for in the 1980s and 1990s. Deceit, spite and misogyny were rife in some government entities. They saw me as a vulnerable target because of my political persuasion. It was brutal. I upped and left in the end but there was a satisfying outcome down the track. The Bolger government correctly deduced that technology had overtaken the section I worked in and it closed. They lost their jobs.

  6. adam 6
    20 January 2023 at 8:54 am

    This still resonates with me at this time, as it may with a lot of people.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihd7ofrwQX0

    • Shanreagh 6.1
      20 January 2023 at 9:49 am

      One of the most powerful anti misogyny speeches ever.

      Abbott was absolutely unrepentant as I suspect all of those spouting similar anti women talk here in NZ are.

  7. Bearded Git 7
    20 January 2023 at 8:54 am

    Agree Tiger….Wood is almost as good a media communicator as Jacinda….even if he lost valiantly to Luxon this year that would put him in the position to oust Luxon after 3 years. Luxon simply does not have it.

  8. DB Brown 8
    20 January 2023 at 9:03 am

    Remember the Holdor scene from Game of Thrones.

    Jacinda was Holdor and the door was MIQ and all the stabby creatures, well, we know who they were. And behind them a sea of covid trying to force it's way in.

    And those evil stabby shits killed her spirit. They should pay.

    • Gosman 8.1
      20 January 2023 at 9:51 am

      How should they pay exactly?

      • Tony Veitch 8.1.1
        20 January 2023 at 10:41 am

        I'd suggest by never ever getting the chance to be in power and fuck the country big time.

        • Gosman 8.1.1.1
          20 January 2023 at 11:37 am

          I very much doubt the people who subjected Ardern to abuse will be getting in to Parliament let alone taking the levers of power.

          • KJT 8.1.1.1.1
            20 January 2023 at 4:00 pm

            I thought you wanted National and ACT to get the "levers of power".

            • Gosman 8.1.1.1.1.1
              20 January 2023 at 4:06 pm

              National and ACT did not subject Ardern to abuse. Stop making things up.

              • KJT …
                20 January 2023 at 4:12 pm

                Sure.

                And I have a bridge to sell you, cheap!

                Nick Hager even wrote a book on how it works.

                I’ve even seen personally, how the well funded RW nudge wink dog whistling works!

      • Barfly 8.1.2
        20 January 2023 at 10:50 am

        Gee Gosman you wouldn't encourage someone to be indiscreet to get them in trouble would you?

        How should they pay? Maybe Karma, maybe in an Afterlife or perhaps being cursed by a conscience and realise how much of a rotten shit they really are. Thinking of you Gosman.

        • Gosman 8.1.2.1
          20 January 2023 at 11:38 am

          Why would you think of me in that regard? I have never directed abuse towards Jacinda Ardern nor any politician that I am aware.

  9. ianmac 9
    20 January 2023 at 9:04 am

    It must be a worry that those who have attacked the PM will feel empowered. Their work is not over. Line up the victims and fire more vitriol. Wonder if Luxon will become a target? Perhaps not as he is a middle aged white male.

    Anyway thanks Jacinda for your magnificent leadership.

    • Peter 9.1
      20 January 2023 at 9:57 am

      The world of simply just 'not liking' e.g. Holyoake, is gone. Muldoon introduced broadly the element of nastiness in regarding those we didn't agree with politically and attacking them. The prevalence has ebbed and flowed since then.

      Of course the communication technology has changed the world and the way the political thing works. Naturally we've gone Americana.

      Vacuity and total viciousness is part of that. I mean look at it, even since 2020. Trump was walloped in the election and his supporters, scores of millions of them, are convinced he won. That is their reality. In the vein of 'all is fair in war and politics' anything is acceptable in pushing their barrow.

      Rationality? Reason? Wider perspectives? Intellect?

      If I had $5 for every time I'd seen the likes of "Jacinda Ardern is pure evil," I'd have enough to invest in mental health services to see the country in far better shape.

  10. Gosman 10
    20 January 2023 at 9:48 am

    "Ardern probably tops the list for the amount of vitriol endured by any political leader in this country, Hannah believes."

    She very well may have and any abuse should be rightly condemned regadless of it's intensity however this person is stating her belief on the topic when she should actually have data supporting her claim especially as she is part of an organisation dedicated to collecting that data.

    • Shanreagh 10.1
      20 January 2023 at 10:45 am

      Did you miss this part of the press release? The upsurge in misogyny in recent times has surely not gone unnoticed by you.

      https://thedisinfoproject.org/2022/11/29/dangerous-speech-misogyny-and-democracy/

      You know in the olden days we had Nats who were social thinkers, the last ones I remember were Sir Doug Graham & Chris Finlayson. Before that we had Ralph Hanan and others. It is only in the last years since the 1980s that this element has been driven out of the Party leaving it a husk of a party believing in personal profit first, second, third, fourth up to 1,000,004.

    • Incognito 10.2
      20 January 2023 at 5:08 pm

      You have twisted the meaning of the words “probably” and “believes” into an alleged “claim” to suit your own morally and intellectually corrupt narrative. The main point made by Hannah (and others) is that there has been an unacceptable amount of online abuse aimed at Ardern and this includes threats that have resulted in Court cases (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300783320/pkeh-party-founder-sentenced-for-youtube-video-threat-against-ardern). If you insist on supporting or rejecting your own strawman ‘claim’, then undertake and/or fund a comparative study yourself. FWIW, I’d think that the expert disinformation researcher has a much better-informed appreciation of this problem than you ever will.

  11. Dottie 11
    20 January 2023 at 10:08 am

    From me too

    "thanks Jacinda for your magnificent leadership"

    I am sad for NZ that we have so many unpleasant people [mostly older males]

    • Shanreagh 11.1
      20 January 2023 at 10:23 am

      I don't know Dottie, I agree that we seem to have let unbridled insult and worse out of the box I am not sure it was older males….Males, certainly with 40 year old ?females like LIz Gunn etc ,

      I was forced by traffic controls to pull over and let the incoming convoy that turned into the parliamentary occupation, pass. I had a slow motion view of those in the convoy from the front as they were coming towards me. .

      Just out of Wellington they seemed to be men in their 40s, driving utes or double cabs plus men in their 40s plus females in cars, and older men and women in campervans of all types. The first were anti PM and the campervans were anti vaxxers, judging by the posters etc.

      The 40-50 male cohort, from long experience is often the most threatened by females being anywhere in power. It is a primitive chauvinistic impulse that builds on their perceived role as breadwinner and the inability to physically fight any incomer who they perceive as threatening this. Even primitives/ancients had sanctions on hitting women!

  12. Corey Humm 12
    20 January 2023 at 10:08 am

    Dear God not Chris Hipkins. He has no personality, zero charisma and I'm sorry but always comes off robotic , smug, or weasely. He'd get us a 2011 result and doom us to 9 years of opposition.

    The ONLY option, even if it's to save the furniture is Kiri Allen. Just think about her first statement to media as pm "two years ago I beat terminal cancer and in 10 months I'll beat Chris Luxon" she's young charismatic, funny and would be the first Maori pm, the first gay pm, the 4th female pm and she'd do extremely well with those voting groups not to mention she's from the regions and would be the first labour pm in thirty years to not be from bloody Auckland!

    She'd be an exciting leader who'd get just as much international attention and local media hype as Ardern, if not more and having a Maori leader would mean if the Maori party have the balance of power they'd almost have to go with labour.

    Kiri Allen as pm and Wood as Deputy would be 🔥 and putting labour younger Mps in cabinet would make labour fresh. Kiri also has no baggage from COVID as she was busy fighting cancer throughout 2020 and 2021 unlike Hipkins who was MOH and will be just as hated if not more than Ardern.

    Its crazy though in 88 years of being a party of govt only 2 pms out of 10 have served two full terms, Helen Clark and the always forgotten Peter Fraser.

    Kiri Allen for PM!!

    • Tony Veitch 12.1
      20 January 2023 at 10:47 am

      Agreed, Cory. Allen and Wood, and shift Labour from the centre to the genuine left with some really progressive policies to tackle inequality.

      • tsmithfield 12.1.1
        20 January 2023 at 12:14 pm

        But the centre is where most of the votes are. Do you really think Labour will want to further allienate itself from the core voting base?

        • Shanreagh 12.1.1.1
          20 January 2023 at 12:39 pm

          Labour should win the election then do a revamping……

        • Tony Veitch 12.1.1.2
          20 January 2023 at 1:35 pm

          But the centre is where most of the votes are.

          That's a much repeated saying, but I don't think it's necessarily true.

          A left wing party with progressive ideas to benefit the 'bottom-feeders' and to tax the 1% and their 9% enablers would not affect the centre at all.

          Things like a CGT, a FTT, GST off food, the first 15,000 of income tax free and free dental care would be winners for both the bottom and the middle.

        • Hanswurst 12.1.1.3
          20 January 2023 at 10:40 pm

          But the centre is where most of the votes are.

          Insofar as 'the centre', ideologically, is the intersection of most people's interests, as perceived by themselves, that is axiomatic.

          That that centre is necessarily synonymous with an imagined mid-point between two competing brands of orthodoxy as presented by two large parties is a heavily funded and propagandised fallacy.

          • newsense 12.1.1.3.1
            21 January 2023 at 6:07 am

            So CEOs who holiday in Hawaii (where Max Key tweeted from today the Herald breathlessly told us) are the centre?

            Also very interesting poll result on Wood’s ability to build support around something:

            ‘The margin for Auckland light rail was similar – 45 per cent want it kept, 27 per cent want it scrapped’

            Allan and Wood would be an energetic new leadership team. Assuming they’d want to work together!

            Chippy is a capable continuity candidate, but was very much Ardern’s minister of everything, along with Megan Woods. If we’re doing continuity surely Grant would be a better shout?

            I would still be happy with him as leader, but if the idea is to refresh the party before the election I feel some combination of Wood and Allan would be a generational change, as well as one if momentum.

            Gotta be some good photos of Kiri with the Black Ferns yeh?

      • Tiger Mountain 12.1.2
        20 January 2023 at 4:54 pm

        Wood and Kiritapu for me. That will rattle the cage.

    • Peter 12.2
      20 January 2023 at 2:19 pm

      Do you want personality, charisma or the job being done? So much of the talk in the past 24 hours is about charisma and leadership but the job not being done.

  13. Reality 13
    20 January 2023 at 10:13 am

    The tv interviews last night replaying comments from random members of the public were interesting. There was some old dinosaur bloke from Morrinsville making plain nasty comments, and several males shrugging their shoulders. I believe many males have never and will never be able to accept a woman leader, particularly one with Jacinda's personal qualities, so they denigrated her in disgusting ways. I well remember also the disgusting treatment of Julia Gillard. When will these old blokes realise it is 2023, not 1923. Grow up you old dinosaurs, or at least shut up.

    • Patricia Bremner 13.1
      20 January 2023 at 10:29 am

      The news crew knew what the atmosphere would be in cow town.!! Orchestrated nasty choices to denigrate. Very typical of the past five years.

      • Jilly Bee 13.1.1
        20 January 2023 at 10:37 am

        I lived in Morrinsville in the early 1970s and campaigned for Helen Clark when she stood for Piako that year. The sentiment was pretty much the same in those days as well, though we did have a dedicated local committee who worked hard during that campaign.

    • bwaghorn 13.2
      20 January 2023 at 12:55 pm

      I've noted a couple of woman in the last 24 hours very happy that cindy as one calls her has quit.

      • Peter 13.2.1
        20 January 2023 at 3:15 pm

        A couple of years back I'd be up through the night and until I couldn't stand it any longer, would have the radio on newstalkzb. Bruce Russell.

        Plenty of Mabels of Mission Bay and Ednas of Epsom seemed really upset at the notion of Ardern being PM. The attitude certainly seemed to be one of the women needing to be in the home in aprons tied to the kitchen sink. It'd been their lot and they expected it to be the way of the world.

        • bwaghorn 13.2.1.1
          20 January 2023 at 6:50 pm

          Ones a successful millionaire that I personally know, the other was a bisniss trooper on television.

      • Anne 13.2.2
        20 January 2023 at 3:28 pm

        Pure, unadulterated jealousy. A common trait in a certain type of woman.

    • Tiger Mountain 13.3
      20 January 2023 at 5:17 pm

      Jeez, back in the late 70s, early 80s, my old V8 car mates used to call the place “Moronsville”, get in, buy your parts and get out!

  14. Muttonbird 14
    20 January 2023 at 10:28 am

    Political right more likely to engage in politically motivated violence.

    Much of this research suggests that compared to left-wing extremists, right-wing extremists may be more likely to engage in politically motivated violence. In comparison to left-wing supporters, right-wing individuals are more often characterised by closed-mindedness and dogmatism and a heightened need for order, structure, and cognitive closure. Because such characteristics have been found to increase in-group bias and lead to greater out-group hostility, violence for a cause may be more likely among proponents of right-wing ideologies.

    In contrast, in comparison to their right-wing counterparts, left-wing individuals score higher on openness to new experiences, cognitive complexity, and tolerance of uncertainty. They are also less likely to support social dominance, which could lead to their overall lower likelihood to use violence against adversaries. In line with this reasoning, some studies have demonstrated an empathy gap between liberal and conservative individuals.

    Finally, according to various conceptualisations and operationalisations of right-wing authoritarianism (RWA), aggressive tendencies constitute an inherent component of this construct, with people high in RWA being more hostile toward others who violate norms than those low in RWA. A recent meta-analysis supported this conclusion, revealing a positive relationship between right-wing ideology and aggressive attitudes and behaviours.

    – K Jasko, 2022

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119

    The empathy gap the researcher is talking about is shown right here on this forum.

    • Thinker 14.1
      20 January 2023 at 9:32 pm

      I had a nerdy friend who demonstrated that eating ice-creams causes drowning, by drawing a high correlation between summer ice-cream eating and summer drownings.

      I agree with Muttonbird, but suggest it might be a bit like my friend's humour:

      Some people believe "You can agree with me or you can be wrong" and by default that kind of makes them more likely to join the conservative, black vs white culture of the RW.

      The LW tends to be the domain of progressive thinkers, consultative and consensus decision-makers, so it's more likely that the left won't be the domain of anywhere near as much vitriolic hate speech.

      I can't cite evidence, but it makes sense to me…

  15. Muttonbird 15
    20 January 2023 at 10:36 am

    Hang your heads in shame, RWNJs:

    On February 6, the personable leader would have been expected to be standing behind the BBQ flipping sausages during Waitangi Day, as she has done for the past four years. But this year, reports suggested the BBQ could be canceled because it was potentially too dangerous for the Prime Minister to be so exposed.

    Some experts said sustained attacks on her character, threats against her life, and the prospect of worse to come in the months before a tough election likely contributed to Ardern's decision to get out.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/01/analysis-jacinda-ardern-s-resignation-shows-burnout-is-real-and-it-s-nothing-to-be-ashamed-of.html

  16. Ad 16
    20 January 2023 at 10:45 am

    We have no more than 8 hours to get over any grieving cycle we have,

    and by end of Monday choose a unified win plan and unified leader.

    National isn't waiting and we all need to be in front of them.

    • Tony Veitch 16.1
      20 January 2023 at 10:58 am

      Allen, Wood or Hipkins are more than capable of chewing Luxon up in any debate and spitting him out. The man talks in CEO cliches!

      Now we need a really progressive left policy to appeal to the 'bottom-feeders' and Labour (and NZ) will enjoy a third and fourth term.

    • Sanctuary 16.2
      20 January 2023 at 12:46 pm

      It is hilarious watching the right wing media desperately seeking to police the left (or at least the Labour Caucus) on who to select.

      Having been blindsided by Jacinda's resignation speed is of the essence and there is a complete lack of subtleness from the likes of Audrey Young and Luke Malpass. They've declared it can only be Chris Hipkins – Michael Wood would be far to trade union left for their business sponsors to swallow!

  17. PsyclingLeft.Always 17
    20 January 2023 at 10:53 am

    The fuckwits !…(well, some of them : (

    The Freedom & Rights Coalition

    "We can now celebrate the departure of this leader of division. We did it!"

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/482761/the-hatred-and-vitriol-jacinda-ardern-endured-would-affect-anybody

    antivaxxers, groundswellers, destiny churchers, and the rest …ah just fuck off.

    Labour…lets Win the election. I am determined !

    • weka 17.1
      20 January 2023 at 12:04 pm

      Yes, let's win the election. All hands to the pump kind of thing I think.

      They hate you and you hate them. How do you think that's going to work out?

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 17.1.1
        20 January 2023 at 12:07 pm

        Well….they hate Jacinda actually. Im saying fuck off. Take that how you like.

        • weka 17.1.1.1
          20 January 2023 at 1:30 pm

          can't answer the question I guess. Sure, I get it. It's easier to hate than it is to do the work of solving a difficult problem.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 17.1.1.1.1
            20 January 2023 at 3:02 pm

            Well i did answer it. Just not in the way you wanted me too : )

            • weka 17.1.1.1.1.1
              20 January 2023 at 3:21 pm

              you patently didn't say anything about how you think things will work out if you and them continue to hate each other. You literally said they hate JA and they can fuck off. Don't answer the question, fine, but you can't say you did.

      • Sanctuary 17.1.2
        20 January 2023 at 12:56 pm

        "… How do you think that's going to work out..?"

        Such a middle class squeamishness at the fear of a touch of political violence!

        You can't give up the public space to bullies because you are afraid they might do something unpleasant. People are such pussies these days, where is the spirit of the 1981 tour and the battles with the red squad when you need it?

        These loons and arseholes have no hesitation at waving nooses, making death threats and rioting. A few punches on the snozz in the streets from their opponents might just cool their ardour for public incivility and disorder.

        • weka 17.1.2.1
          20 January 2023 at 1:28 pm

          Who said anything about violence? Besides, I wrote in 2017 about the necessity of punching Nazis, but not gloryng it nor relying on it.

          I was on the motoroway in Dunedin in 81, so fuck off with the superficial analysis.

          I wish that it had been climate activists who occupied parliament grounds in Feb2021. But apparently hating on antivaxxers online is more the left's style now.

          A few punches on the snozz in the streets from their opponents might just cool their ardour for public incivility and disorder.

          Doubt it. Some of those people are spoiling not just for fight but a civil war.

          Which is why I said what I said. If we don't build bridges with the people that can still see sense, we will escalate until we are like the US and it's too late.

          The question wasn't rhetorical. I was asking how PLA sees things working out if we continue to ostracise and hate people who are gaining political power?

        • DB Brown 17.1.2.2
          20 January 2023 at 1:29 pm

          yes

          Metaphorical punches on snozz, but also a right to defend oneself and others.

          You give these fringe fuckwits too much kudos at times Weka. Nasty trolls and shit people with antisocial agendas need to go down (eg leader of all trolls Trump) and then their followers might blink and see light.

          • weka 17.1.2.2.1
            20 January 2023 at 1:31 pm

            have you tried this with this particular group of people? I'm curious what happened.

            • DB Brown 17.1.2.2.1.1
              20 January 2023 at 1:35 pm

              Tried what?

              I have family who follow these clowns, doesn't make them or the bullshit they defend legit.

              I’m done with discussing if the Earth’s flat as many others are too. This anti-science anything goes if it gets the libs wound up can just get to fuck.

              It should be beneath contempt, but there it is.

              There’s professional organising of all this nastiness. They are well deserving of contempt, criminal charges, punches on snozz…

              • weka …
                20 January 2023 at 1:41 pm

                the question remains. If you intend to ostracise them, how do you see that playing out? Or are you not looking at the consequences?

          • weka 17.1.2.2.2
            20 January 2023 at 1:39 pm

            nah, you're missing that it's about strategy. See my link above for my views in punching Nazis. I just don't think that this works for most people, and we all still have to live together in communities. If antivaxxers, groundswellers, destiny churchers, and the rest are being told to fuck off, where exactly do you think they will go?

            The AVs and GS both have large numbers of supporters who are regular people and not nasty trolls. The trick is not simply about how to deal with the online nasty trolls, but the much larger number of people who are allying in the same cause with them. It's that latter group I am concerned with, because they are not small in number and we cannot ostracise them all if we want functional communities. Ostracisation and punching should remain a tactic for the few where it might really be needed.

            • DB Brown 17.1.2.2.2.1
              20 January 2023 at 1:47 pm

              Oh for fuck sake you're asking we all accept utter bullshit. I had more than enough of that from religion thank you very much never going to happen. Draw a line and cross to the side of actual truth.

              What planet are you on that you think we just roll over on this shit.

              And I’m always talking about their leaders, get them, ostracise, charge them, those $%%^&%^&*&!!!

              • weka …
                20 January 2023 at 1:52 pm

                Oh for fuck sake you're asking we all accept utter bullshit.

                Point to where I said that. Link and quote. Because if you want to have a conversation here you cannot make shit up about other people's views or arguments. I've give you the benefit of the doubt that are misunderstanding, but either clarify with evidence or stop saying it.

                And I’m always talking about their leaders, get them, ostracise, charge them, those motherfucker cult leader cunts.

                You should say that then, each time, because it's not at all clear that is what you have meant.

                • DB Brown …
                  20 January 2023 at 2:10 pm

                  Always nitpicking pointless fights. Just fuck off with it today.

                  [nope. It’s a bottom line on commenting here, you cannot make shit up about what authors believe or what their arguments mean. For obvious reasons. We’re tightening up for election year, and I’m not willing to have my time wasted by people misrepresenting what I say. You either provide evidence, or retract it, or I moderate.

                  I’ll note the irony of you saying it’s ok to push back hard on dickheads while being one yourself. You bring good debate to this site, lots of interesting views. You still have to abide by the rules like everyone else. – weka]

                  • weka …
                    20 January 2023 at 3:25 pm

                    mod note.

                    • DB Brown …
                      20 January 2023 at 5:20 pm

                      You try drag people to your point of view constantly. You insist on people having these long drawn out arguments you start over nothing. It is boring and fucking tedious.

                      You love to bullet point other posters over some imagined shit, some word you've taken umbrage at, or some phrase you're not sure of.

                      Just give it a fucking break, and me if you must sit on your high horse like you aren't doing that shit.

                      [what that amounts to is that you don’t like things I do. No explanation, no examples, nothing to learn. You have a low level but escalating pattern of abusing people here, that you’ve been warned about multiple times. It is also apparent that you intend to operate here as if the rules don’t apply to you. Nothing tells me more about contempt for TS than that and people wanting a ban. Easiest thing all round now is just to take you out of the conversation for a while. This time a month, expect a long ban next time. – weka]

            • Muttonbird 17.1.2.2.2.2
              20 January 2023 at 6:47 pm

              I'm curious why we, the non antivaxxers, groundswellers and destiny churchgoers, must meet half way this disparate group adjacent to and I would say heavily overlapping with the nasty trolls.

              Surely then we have just been dragged closer to the nasty trolls and therefore we have all become more nasty.

              I might add the bar owners in there because they too seem to have gone off the deep end today.

              Groundswell are slightly separate in that their beef (heh) is about environmental regulation. Over time their argument will become widely dismissed and they will disappear. The thing that does unite them is the anti-science stance.

              The others are all about the mandates which in turn is about vaccine hesitancy and that is a much tougher nut to crack. But in the pandemic epoch perhaps they will also disappear.

              We shouldn't be cuddling these idiots, rather keep them from harming themselves and the rest of us, and let nature take its course.

              Darwinism, right? Follow the science.

              • weka …
                20 January 2023 at 8:21 pm

                I didn't say meet them half way, nor did I say to cuddle them (again, people, please stop putting words in my mouth).

                Thanks for answering the question. If I've understood right, you think that there will be a natural social/political process over time where their ideas will be dismissed by wider society. And presumably from that they will change their minds, or keep their ideas to themselves or something. They won’t literally disappear, but the movements they are supporting will. Did I get that right?

                • Shanreagh …
                  20 January 2023 at 11:22 pm

                  I agree with MB and with your para of summary as amended.

                  you think that there will be a natural social/political process over time where their ideas will be dismissed by wider society. And presumably from that they will change their minds, or keep their ideas to themselves or something. They won’t literally disappear, but the movements they are supporting will.

                  The last big shake-up was the Springbok tour. While I have never watched a rugby game since people I know who were on the frontlines in their helmets on do go to rugby games and do watch TV. We didn't have a reach out and see what makes them tick or Truth and Reconciliation. Basically we just retired to our corners and life took over.

                  This is what I think MB is saying. Life goes on. What have made people see red about Govt at the time of the pandemic may be pushed far back in time by the elections. My view is that we all need to play a part to make sure there are policies to look forward to in the election that do not actually revive the happenings of that time.

                • Muttonbird …
                  21 January 2023 at 4:00 pm

                  That's my rather quickly cobbled together theory. No doubt there has always been vaccine hesitancy but pre pandemic they did for the most part, "keep their ideas to themselves", and were largely invisible.

                  Covid changed all that with the largest vaccine roll out in history and further the vaccine mandates. These people we not invisible anymore and they didn't keep their ideas to themselves.

                  In the absence of another pandemic I think things will return to normal eventually and the division will subside. It will all be thrown into sharp relief again if another virus appears.

                  Brings me to the idea about the overlap between the hardcore antivaxxers, VFF, groundswell etc, and the 'liberals who are uncomfortable with mandates' who you mention @ 17.1.3.1.1.1. Perhaps liberals fall into the group who would like a smaller planet with less intensive growth and density. This of course being another way to reduce the risk of future pandemics without such need for wide vaccine rollouts and vaccine mandates.

                  This idea runs counter to profit first neoliberal capitalism, so I would hold my breath.

                  • weka …
                    21 January 2023 at 4:29 pm

                    what this theory suggests to me is that you (and not just you, I think a lot of lefties), don't know many people who support the Freedom movement who are liberal, and don't understand them.

                    Because it's not just about vaccination and the mandates. (for instance much so called anti-vaccination belief is grounded in health promotion that many in the mainstream are illiterate in).

                    And the people that were quietly not vaccinating their kids before, are now really fucked off with Labour and picking up a lot of US style anti-government rhetoric, and being exposed to movements that are being driven by the far right and often from off shore. Some know this is happening, many deny it. They reject the idea that the far right was involved in the parliament occupation, and this is dangerous, but they are basically refusing to examine their own biases.

                    Maybe the ongoing pandemic will lessen their resolve, I really hope so. But then the rest of the country has a major issue with denial as well, so few people are facing the fact that covid causes long term damage across the population. It's a politically volatile time and I think it's fair to say that while parliament still functions on a broadly left/right spectrum, the country as a whole doesn't.

                    The people I know (and it's a quite a lot of people) who support the Freedom movement might be broadly called libertarian (hence US anti-govt stuff). Some of those people won't/don't vote. Some will vote ACT, in part out of political naivety about personal and community responsibility. I’m guessing some will throw their vote away on TOP and don’t see National forming government as being the terrible thing we do.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      21 January 2023 at 4:40 pm

                      You don't know many people who support the Freedom movement who are liberal, and don't understand them.

                      True that. I'm based in suburban Auckland where there are probably not a great number of them, and of course we don't speak to our neighbours 🙂

                      But I do work in a 'liberal' industry in which a small percentage were lost to mandates. Unsure if they were lefties because we're on top of each other all day and talking politics is shut down fairly quickly.

              • weka …
                20 January 2023 at 8:27 pm

                Darwinism, right? Follow the science.

                Darwin's classic statement about survival of the fittest meant that those individuals in a species that were the best 'fit' would survive to reproduce and pass on their genes. I don't believe this was meant to apply to socio political situations, but I guess it works as an analogy. In which case we might like to see how much of nature is about cooperation. And how human societies have evolved from tribal roots that were likewise based in cooperation. The need to belong is very deeply embedded in us. Ostracisation should be for extreme situations were things cannot be solved in other ways, or where the behaviour of an individual is deeply harmful to the tribe.

                One might argue that the Freedom movements are that harmful, but the question then becomes what would society do with those people. We can't cast them out. And it's not a rare individual, it's whole swathes of people.

                • Shanreagh …
                  20 January 2023 at 10:33 pm

                  Vis a vis the comments from MB and RB Brown. I totally get where these comments are coming from.

                  I'm curious why we, the non antivaxxers, groundswellers and destiny churchgoers, must meet half way this disparate group adjacent to and I would say heavily overlapping with the nasty trolls.

                  and

                  Oh for fuck sake you're asking we all accept utter bullshit. I had more than enough of that from religion thank you very much never going to happen. Draw a line and cross to the side of actual truth.

                  What planet are you on that you think we just roll over on this shit.

                  And I’m always talking about their leaders, get them, ostracise, charge them, those $%%^&%^&*&!!!

                  I watched David Farrier's film Mr Organ. In it there was a telling sequence when he pondered whether to follow the story and decided not to, on the grounds that following a person to see what makes them tick when they are so far out on the boundaries of what is usual and acceptable in society actually felt like an injury to one's soul.

                  So exploring the arguments and giving time and credence to views that were well outside these affects those listening more than the ones advancing. Often these people are protected by their own views of their own worth ie narcissism etc.

                  It sort of has a parallel with studies I did for a qualification in Criminology. Speaking with people in Corrections one was saying that in prisons like everywhere else in society there is a range of normals, the ones on either end of these Bell curves were the ones that made it difficult for their fellow prisoners and prison staff alike. The rough way they described these outliers were 'the mad bad' and 'the bad mad'.

                  What I was hearing from MB and RB Brown was that they believed many of those we know are spreading vitriol etc are those on the ends of the bell curves. Some of them may be protected by their own psychological make-up. Speaking to them in tones of reason or even speaking to some of them at all, may be, probably is, an exercise in futility.

                  It is not like building a bridge to say someone with a different view, hearing it and have them hear you.

                  I do think that those from the left are more willing to listen and hear, empathise but after having these discussions where one has to accept something that is illogical (ie the bridge) to even get the conversation going can be an assault to one's senses.

                  So I was attracted to the concept of an assault to one's soul from reaching out into illogicality, as expounded by David Farrier. I believe that this concept is what both MB and RB are commenting on.

                  • weka …
                    20 January 2023 at 10:41 pm

                    would you mind telling me what you think my position is?

                    Because you just quoted/repeated DB Brown's lie that my position is we accept their bullshit and that I think we should just roll over on this.

                    And you then made an argument that appears to be a response to that.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      20 January 2023 at 11:33 pm

                      I quoted both of these posters as it seemed to me that they were pushing back on the idea of building a bridge to those who held/are holding unpalatable (to them/us) views. The responses seemed to be a bit of 'ignore' may be the best way for them to deal with the views

                      I have been thinking a lot about what David Farrier said and it seemed to me that the pushback to doing any more than ignoring them, in the best possible way, may have been a subconscious response to this idea of his that we as humans may wound our souls by trying to meet some people half way etc,. We had an article earlier on about left leaners having more empathy.

                      My post was not about your views at all. I quoted MB & RB views as evidence, or to hang this idea of Farrier's on.

                      If my post has come across as responding to a view of yours I apologise, it was not meant to. It was a response to the plain words of both MB & RB.

                      When I said I get where these commenters are coming from…..again this was not about your views but about this idea of soul wounding and ‘ignore’ or letting it pass.

      • joe90 17.1.3
        20 January 2023 at 1:21 pm

        How do you think that's going to work out?

        Ignoring it didn't work.

        According to a recent study, published just before Christmas, which charts the rise of misogynistic language towards female leaders and women in the public sphere, the most prevalent word used to describe the Prime Minister in these circles is "the C word, and the most prevalent visual image is of witchcraft."

        "And this is old data. This is data from the middle of last year. So it's actually got worse."

        Another grim factoid from the paper shows the word "Neve" – referring to Ardern's pre-school daughter – is also on the most prevalent list.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/482761/the-hatred-and-vitriol-jacinda-ardern-endured-would-affect-anybody

        • weka 17.1.3.1
          20 January 2023 at 1:29 pm

          I've never advocated ignoring it. If you think that I have you don't understand my point.

          • gsays 17.1.3.1.1
            20 January 2023 at 5:44 pm

            Gotta say, I admire yr tenacity and patience.

            For ALL the talk, in the last 24 hours, about how nasty and unnecescary the abusive comments are in politics nowadays… " loons and arseholes", "fringe fuckwits",

            I think folk on the other side of the divide, those that had no issues with the state's pandemic response, are worryingly unaware how deep the division is. Not all that have a dissenting view are misogynists, VFF or Tamaki disciples nor Nazis. To keep up the pile-ons and framing them as anti-vaxxers just keeps the wounds raw and deep.

            If only a few more of them would heed Arderns example.

            • weka 17.1.3.1.1.1
              20 January 2023 at 6:01 pm

              thanks gsays. I agree that I think many are unaware of just how bad the divide is getting. Or at least, I hope it's lack of awareness rather than that they genuinely believe that this increasing number of people can be ostracised and hated into changing beliefs and politics. Because that would be fucking bonkers.

              One of the features today is the conflation of the leaders of the movements who are allied with the far right, with everyday people who don't see the far right connections but who see a lot of things happening they are really uncomfortable with. The big wake up call for me was talking to an organic farmer in 2021 who mentioned in passing they were glad to see the Groundswell action coming up because they didn't like a lot of things the government was doing. I doubt rabidly anti-Ardern, more just some rural people who are unhappy with how things are going in their area. I was shocked and it made me look much more closely at why people who aren't far right fuckwits might be looking to GW rather than Labour for leadership. I've since come across a lot of people like that.

              We cannot punch our way out of that.

              People responding to me seem to think this means I am saying do nothing, but they're not actually thinking that one through. We need strong push back against the leaders, and we need to build bridges with the much larger group of people who are looking for a place to be heard and to belong. One of my fears is that those people are being socialised into tolerating misogyny as we speak. If it's ok for lefties to talk about them in derogatory terms and tell them to fuck off, I'm sure they will fuck off and building stronger connections and movements with the misogynists.

              And Joe, if you're reading this, do you really think as a feminist political blogger I don't know the dynamics of abuse that women get online?

              • Maurice …
                20 January 2023 at 10:03 pm

                Some very good sense there.

              • Shanreagh …
                20 January 2023 at 10:41 pm

                What is this GW? Please.

                …who aren't far right fuckwits might be looking to GW rather than Labour for leadership. I've since come across a lot of people like that.

                I don't look on people voting being attracted to other left leaning organisations as being lost to the cause, just as long as they don't vote right or not vote at all.

                If the parties have post election arrangements to support each other we can pick up these other left leaners.

                • weka …
                  20 January 2023 at 10:45 pm

                  sorry, GS, Groundswell.

                  I wasn't actually talking about voting. But people are being radicalised away from the left (not just Labour) and they're not going to vote Green instead. This is really fucking serious. It's happening in the broad Freedom movement, and it's happening within feminism because of gender identity.

            • Shanreagh 17.1.3.1.1.2
              20 January 2023 at 11:02 pm

              If only a few more of them would heed Arderns example.

              What and have to resign because it has got so bad? She is very gracious and that is good, her personal modus operandi.

              It does not detract from the papers referred to earlier from the Disinformation Project and the work done by the SIS and mentioned by Rebecca Kitteridge. These leave us in no doubt that there is an undercurrent of racism, misogyny and the the mouthpieces for this recently have been the VFF and those from Destiny Church (if you have doubts then read Tamaki's response to the resignation).

              Those unaware of any fissures will not be having any wounds re-opened.

              The ones who may be having wounds reopened will be those fellow travellers who were happy for others to sock it to Ardern, support the occupation, happy to espouse illogicality and have it pushed back at them.

              Actually having said this in the para above, I am actually not convinced myself of who the ones may be with the fissures reopened if they are not those who were horrified that our society had come to this, where disturbing and untrue information was sought from overseas and promulgated here and believed here.

              Where phrases as 'lipstick on a pig' and 'pretty little communist' and Comrade Ardern, the witch bitch and much worse are in common parlance.

              Who are the ones that you were meaning gsays?

              • weka …
                20 January 2023 at 11:16 pm

                Where phrases as 'lipstick on a pig' and 'pretty little communist' and Comrade Ardern, the witch bitch and much worse are in common parlance.

                I can tell you with 100% certainty that many of the people I know who supported the occupation of parliament grounds would not use language like that and many would say it wasn't ok. Maybe not the commie stuff, that would be considered light, but certainly the death threats and sexist stuff.

                What worries me is that in ten years time those people will have become used to the language and it won't bother them anymore. The left should be concerned about that. The group of people I am talking about are not RW. They're liberals.

                I see Trump's years as the turning point that made it acceptable to be misogynistic and racist outloud. And the left wasn't prepared for when that happened here.

                Those unaware of any fissures will not be having any wounds re-opened.

                what does that mean and who is it referring to?

                • Shanreagh …
                  20 January 2023 at 11:48 pm

                  Those unaware of any fissures will not be having any wounds re-opened.

                  what does that mean and who is it referring to?

                  This was a response to gsays post. I could not work out who would be the ones that would having fissures reopened by rehashing all this bullkaka espoused at the time of the pandemic.

                  'Lipstick on a pig' seen on RW messageboard about Ardern, 'Comrade Ardern' and 'pretty little communist' seen on Groundswell tractors and at the demo at parliament where people were waving the Maga & Trump flags. 'Jabcinda' on several of the occupation vehicles. 'Witch' on an occupation vehicle.

                  I agree that Trump wreaked havoc all around the world.

                  My view is that we move on, we get the best most inclusive policies for the election, we go to our roots, we call to everyone to consider others so we can do this.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    21 January 2023 at 12:08 am

                    We need strong push back against the leaders, and we need to build bridges with the much larger group of people who are looking for a place to be heard and to belong. One of my fears is that those people are being socialised into tolerating misogyny as we speak. If it's ok for lefties to talk about them in derogatory terms and tell them to fuck off, I'm sure they will fuck off and building stronger connections and movements with the misogynists.

                    I talk about racist and misogynists in possibly derogatory terms.

                    Racism and misogyny and treating people differently because of immutable features are scourges of modern day life, they have been to the forefront of my activist life (as much as I could have one while a PS) since the 1970s. To tolerate racism/misogyny in any way, shape or form is contrary to my upbringing and my own views.

                    What special character traits have these people got that we need to protect them rather than calling them out. Why do we call out the leaders only?

                    Luxon had not heard of the snarling social media treatment of women. He obviously lives in a cloistered world.

                    My mother, who as a career woman looking after an accountancy practice during WW2 had three categories of men and sexism/misogyny. When you let them know something they are doing is sexist

                    Group one will keep on doing what they are doing – being misogynistic

                    Group two will stop doing this as they had not realised

                    Group three will convert to the cause and be horrified at what they are seeing.

                    The trick is to initially feed the same info to all, Tailor the ongoing responses to groups two/three. Group one is a lost cause and we waste time trying to 'meet' this group, may even damage our souls a la David Farrier.

                • just saying …
                  21 January 2023 at 2:26 pm

                  What really worries me is tribalism. It has nothing to do with conviction or belief. It is the worst kind of team membership in its shallowness or even absence of this much-needed ground. It is simply belonging to a team, any team. A name, a jersey, an identity. What underlies tribalism is mere appearances and a kind of mob mentality in which no debate can take place. It's just them versus us.

                  I disagree that those who were left will simply 'become' rightwing. It is offensive to those who hold strong leftist beliefs to suggest that our convictions are so shallow, were never more than meaningless branding of product 'me'. No more Coke, now I'm Pepsi all the way….

                  I also disagree with the idea that we will cease to be affected by vicious rhetoric. As if we ceased to be human when we disagreed with a purported 'team' position, even on a matter unrelated to the actual reason for the team.

                  But it is telling that it seems that this assumption is what party politics has descended into.

                  The covid situation was not left versus right. Turning beliefs about the best way of responding to a virus into a team-membership matter was facile and ridiculous.

                  It is disturbing that Labour and the Greens so thoughtlessly burned-off so many more leftist voters than they will likely ever know in their needless ostracism and vitriol. In their own empty tribalism.

                  • weka …
                    22 January 2023 at 12:06 pm

                    I agree left wing people aren't necessarily going to become right wing (and I didn't say they would as a general statement). But it depends on what we mean by left. Certainly there are former Labour voters who won't vote and left and may go rightwards to TOP or ACT or even Nat. Left covers a range of people from ideologically committed people to those who are more centre left and potentially become swing voters.

                    (myself, I still sit to the left of the GP, but I vote on pragmatics and strategy. What is most likely to shift NZ leftwards and greenwards after the election this year? The Greens and TPM. I'm a strong criticiser of not voting or giving votes to parties that are not building a movement and are not going to get influence in parliament).

                    This has been seen in the gender/sex wars, where women end up politically homeless and look around for where they are better fit having been rejected by many liberals/left/progressives including political parties.

              • gsays …
                21 January 2023 at 9:05 am

                "If only a few more of them would heed Arderns example.

                What and have to resign because it has got so bad?"

                No. Follow Arderns example if kindness.

                Not all that have a dissenting view are misogynists, VFF or Tamaki disciples nor Nazis.

                A great excercise in communication is to try and articulate the other side of a debate as reasonably and as fairly as possible.

                • Anne …
                  21 January 2023 at 10:04 am

                  Not all that have a dissenting view are misogynists, VFF or Tamaki disciples nor Nazis.

                  You are misreading the comments gsays if you are assuming Shanreagh and everyone else on this site are including those who have a 'dissenting' view of Jacinda Ardern.

                  Some people don't like her style of leadership – fair enough. Some are jealous of her – that's their problem. Some are tribal NActs and would dissent no matter who the leader was – ho hum. Some like to go with the winning flow – harrumph.

                  But others are recidivist individuals full of a pathological hatred towards her (and others), who spread mis and dis- information, who stalk, harrass, intimidate, threaten and in some cases have the potential to carry out serious acts of violence.

                  It is impossible to communicate with them in a reasonable and rational way because most have progressed beyond such conversations. They can be dangerous and unpredictable. In the first instance, they need to be identified and in the more serious cases prosecuted. Whatever the outcome, they need to be "psychologically detoxed" so they are no longer a threat to anyone.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    21 January 2023 at 10:36 am

                    Thanks Anne.

                    Very well expressed. I think we are beyond rational discussion for some as you say……

                    It is impossible to communicate with them in a reasonable and rational way because most have progressed beyond such conversations. They can be dangerous and unpredictable. In the first instance, they need to be identified and in the more serious cases prosecuted. Whatever the outcome, they need to be "psychologically detoxed" so they are no longer a threat to anyone.

                  • gsays …
                    21 January 2023 at 3:52 pm

                    "You are misreading the comments gsays if you are assuming Shanreagh and everyone else on this site are including those who have a 'dissenting' view of Jacinda Ardern."

                    I'm not misreading anything.

                    I was tautoko weka's vibe about inclusivity, progression and strategising in a fraught thread.

                    I then put it in the context of the commentry occurring here, contrasting that with the vibe Ardern encouraged.

                  • just saying …
                    21 January 2023 at 4:53 pm

                    I'm guessing a lot of people, including those on their own side, resent the left not calling time on the Prime Minister when she claimed that those who opposed the mandate were far-right Nazis.

                    Ardern had to go. This was too far. Instead of seeing the error and working to heal the situation she had created, she doubled, tripled and quadrupled down, culminating in that atrocious speech before the UN opposing free speech. This was not opposing hate speech, but political dissent.

                    I don't know what happened here, or what possessed her, but Labour could not go into another election with Ardern at the helm. National didn't need a single policy they just had to step back and wait for the election to fall into their hands.

                    I feel I need to be really clear here that I'm not arguing about covid or the vaccine. What I'm trying to get across is that there has been a blindness in just how bad this was. A group of protestors was grossly misrepresented from the office of the Prime Minister. Claimed to be Nazis.

                    • Anne …
                      21 January 2023 at 6:41 pm

                      I'm guessing a lot of people, including those on their own side, resent the left not calling time on the Prime Minister when she claimed that those who opposed the mandate were far-right Nazis.

                      That is as far as I am reading your comment. The above is an outright lie! Whatever she may have said, you have… at best, misrepresented it to the point of committing a serious case of defamation. At worst it is either completely delusionary or a deliberate attempt on your part to spread disinformation.

                    • just saying …
                      21 January 2023 at 7:56 pm

                      I retract and apologise

                • Shanreagh …
                  21 January 2023 at 10:31 am

                  I think we are talking about two or several different things and are at cross purposes.

                  I don't think I have ever expressed or thought that those expressing different views were misogynists, VFF or Tamaki disciples. Perhaps those who showed up at the occupation were those things or misguided, or misled.

                  The rabid stuff you can see on Twitter, even after the occupation had finished and we had the Covid restrictions lifted is may come from all of the above plus others whose views are influenced by many.

                  I have no problem with the quiet dissenters, or even the unquiet ones as long as it is kept within the bounds of civil discourse

                  Of course espousing realistic views and arguments would help too.

                  While not knowing all the 'ins' & outs' of either the conscientious objectors of both wars or the 1951 strike the arguments and the acceptance or sympathy for of these by others who held different views seem to be different from the misogyny and racism that floats around today.

                  Perhaps the main difference is that they were articulated in terms we could understand.

                  Arguing against patent absurdities like what may have been in the vaccines does not meet this thresh hold. Arguing against someone because of an immutable characteristics such as race or sex does not meet this thresh hold either. They also do not meet the criteria of arguments that you can easily argue against ie there is no real 'other' side. or discipline.

                  Take it from me I have had several times in a workplace where we have had to sanction and it often boiled down to an agreement by the offender to accept the 'rules' of the workplace and leave his views at the lift door. There is just no other rationale argument to listen to that excuses racism or sexism.

                  Having an argument and then not being able to accept the consequences of your argument is one of the differences between the conscientious objectors and the strikers and the disparate crowd at occupation and those unseen purveyors on Twitter.

                  The strikers and conscientious objectors knew that if they promulgated civil unrest there would be consequences. They were not afraid of them. This is a great difference as I think you will find that many of the ones on the other side in those times would have been able to quite easily repeat the arguments of the ones on the other side.

                  Is saying misogynistic things even an argument? Is there an other side to misogyny? or it is one of those things like murdering someone? Firstly condemned then justice meted in terms of whether the offender was compos mentis.

                  How would I articulate an argument in favour of misogyny, to get to reach the other side? How would I articulate an argument in favour of expressing misogyny? In basic terms you cannot. It is like murder and in the worlds of the Bible it is more a case of forgive them for they know not what they do. Condemn and punish if it is advertent. Forgive and educate if it is inadvertent

                  Perhaps in patriarchal churches/society there is misogyny but the existence of it is not an argument that it represents another equally valid side.

                  .

                  • gsays …
                    21 January 2023 at 3:55 pm

                    "I think we are talking about two or several different things and are at cross purposes."

                    Got it in one.

                • Shanreagh …
                  21 January 2023 at 10:38 am

                  So rather than you having to read all my comments. In trying to see the other side…….

                  What are the arguments in favour of misogyny?

                  • gsays …
                    21 January 2023 at 3:59 pm

                    "What are the arguments in favour of misogyny?"

                    Ask me a sports question, I'm better at them.

  18. tsmithfield 18
    20 January 2023 at 10:55 am

    I think one of Jacinda's greatest strengths was her ability to inspire hope.

    But it looks like things are going into a long grind. I think people are starting to feel weary. And, some of the things she inspired hope for at the start simply have not materialised.

    Plus, it looks like Jacinda is really tired.

    So, I think it would be very hard for her to raise the same level of hope this time around, and people may simply not believe it.

    Hence, I think it was a good decision for her to stand down.

    It will be interesting to see who will replace her.

    Chippie is the obvious choice. He looks strong under pressure, communicates clearly, and has good knowledge of a number of portfolios. But, the question for me is whether he recapture lost support. I think he can stop the slide, but I am not so sure he can reverse it.

    And imagine him and Luxon in a leaders debate. It will be hard staying awake.

    The wild-card choice would be Kiri Allan. She has the venacular of the average kiwi, so should communicate well to the target audience. Probably the biggest issue is her lack of experience. I think the electorate may be looking for safe but boring this time around.

    • pat 18.1
      20 January 2023 at 11:35 am

      The question unaddressed is who may want the position heading into a likely electoral defeat…many of the potential candidates may wish to avoid such and seek nomination post election.

  19. Tony Veitch 19
    20 January 2023 at 11:00 am

    Probably the biggest issue is her lack of experience.

    And Luxon has???

    And no electorate is safe with Act f-wits wagging the Natz dogsbody.

    • tsmithfield 19.1
      20 January 2023 at 11:44 am

      Luxon has experience running major companies. That probably gives him an advantage in terms of relevant experience in tough enconomic times.

      • Shanreagh 19.1.1
        20 January 2023 at 12:14 pm

        Really? I think the value of running a company and its supposed similarity to running a country is vastly over stated.

        If you had picked a better example such as being a CE of one of those huge multi branched Departments such as MBIE or Internal Affairs I might have agreed with you.

        Eg Wide portfolios, often working with multiple Ministers, often working with overseas govts and other govt departments, external stakeholders peering into what you are doing, subject to Ministerials, OIAs and oversight of the Ombudsman and in may cases working to exacting legislation

        Working for a private enterprise is in no way an automatic preparation for a PM or Leader of the Opposition though right wingers continue to believe this…not sure why really.

        Just off the top of my head Ruth Richardson's name sprang to mind ….lawyer and with experience in a lobby group, Fed Farmers, stood her in good stead.

        I have known and worked with Nats in Parliament (as a staffer) enough to not believe the old trope about company experience.

        I'd rather believe this

        'It matters not whether you win or lose but how you play the game' (Grantland Rice)

        We need to get people from many walks of life united to play the game, This is why when Covid came the time for the Nats to have played the game was to have stood beside Labour/PM to meet this together for the country.

        My uttermost disappointment that Bridges did not cross the floor to support the PM remains with me to this day. To have done so would have played the game for the people. Bridges did not do it and I don't think that Luxon would have either.

        It turns out our PM did not need them as she and her party were bright & driven enough to do without them.

        We need people like this (inspiring) rather than company boffins.

        • Shanreagh 19.1.1.1
          20 January 2023 at 12:37 pm

          I am not aware that Christopher Luxon ever worked for a Triple bottom line (people, profit, planet) company, correct me if I am wrong. This means that people feature only as a unit of production.

          We should be drawing on sayings like this

          'He aha te mea nui o te ao? He tangata he tangata he tangata! '

          'What is the most important thing in the world. It is people it is people it is people'

          The corporate world usually generally places people way down the list in importance to a company.

        • tsmithfield 19.1.1.2
          20 January 2023 at 12:51 pm

          If you had picked a better example such as being a CE of one of those huge multi branched Departments such as MBIE or Internal Affairs I might have agreed with you.

          Eg Wide portfolios, often working with multiple Ministers, often working with overseas govts and other govt departments, external stakeholders peering into what you are doing, subject to Ministerials, OIAs and oversight of the Ombudsman and in may cases working to exacting legislation

          A CEO in a large company would be doing all that and more. The titles the CEO interacts with may be different, but it is quite similar.

          And, a CEO usually has to answer to a board, and provide results. So, there is certainly a lot of scrutiny on a CEO as well.

          I used to work in a government department. When I was there, it would have been almost necessary to murder the boss to get sacked. Not so for a chief executive in a private company. If the results aren't there, the CEO will be given the flick fairly quickly.

          And running a company isn't that different from running a country. Both require strong vision, a sound knowledge of finance, good administration skills, and the ability to manage and relate to people.

          • Shanreagh 19.1.1.2.1
            20 January 2023 at 1:03 pm

            And running a company isn't that different from running a country. Both require strong vision, a sound knowledge of finance, good administration skills, and the ability to manage and relate to people.

            Really? I think you are over egging it personally.

            What I have seen of Luxon he does not strike me as future PM material other than being Leader of the National Party, certainly company experince does not equip anyone as of right.

            His real life experience with a wide group of people, seems to be lacking and of course membership of a Christian sect is a red flag for many. My dad was a true blue Nat in the old style mould and belonging to church of the type that Luxon does would have given him pause. (He would probably written to him and quizzed him on how he would reconcile its prosperity teaching with doing good by all NZers and that is still a fair question)

            Luxon is also not very experienced in being in Parliament per se.

            The Nats do have their new improved dirty tricks brigade by the looks so they will have that advantage.

            • tsmithfield 19.1.1.2.1.1
              20 January 2023 at 1:26 pm

              I can imagine when being asked questions in the debate Luxon will be able to answer with responses such as:

              "When I was running Air NZ we had a similar problem, and this is what we did to fix it…."

              I don't know if many Labour MPs would be able to give that sort of response. So, I think Luxon's experience does give him advantages.

              Obviously, I come more from a right wing perspective. But I am trying to look at this objectively.

              That doesn't write Luxon's opponent off by any means. But they will likely need to rely on something else rather than experience running a business.

              • Tony Veitch …
                20 January 2023 at 1:28 pm

                Ah yes, the old "I used to run an airline" response! Jolly good.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                20 January 2023 at 3:36 pm

                Imagine a political debate question to which this would be a good response.

                "When I was running Air NZ we had a similar problem, and this is what we did to fix it…."

                “I understand, of course, that a country is not a company. However, New Zealanders look to the government to get things done. It’s not good enough saying you’re going to lower greenhouse gas emissions, but not do it.” – Luxon

                So what's it to be – say you're not going to lower emissions (Party before Planet), or just do it?

                Net zero tsar: Tories will lose election without strong climate policies [19 January 2023]
                The Conservatives will lose the next election unless they take climate targets seriously, the government’s own net zero tsar has said.

              • Shanreagh …
                20 January 2023 at 5:12 pm

                But why is this experience so important that a question about it is likely to be asked?

                Would say, Ruth Richardson, a lawyer and lobbyist for Federated Farmers expect to be asked a question about how being a lobbyist had helped her? And it would have helped her Or the the 'farmer from Dipton', Bill English be asked whether counting sheep to go to sleep helped him become the Treasurer/Minister of Finance.

                Of course they would not and we would not expect them to be asked this. What we would expect is that someone may ask, 'what is your approach to XXXyyy? and then like a job interview you would muster up all your experiences and bring them to bear on the question.

                There is no one job that fits anyone up to be an MP though experiences on how govt's work, wide reach inot the community will fit better than other life experiences.

                What has always intrigued me is that I have never seen Chris Luxon mention any volunteering work he has done, this gets you into the community……

                Sorry TS I usually have much respect for your views but supporting people blathering on about running something making a person extra specially suited for PM just makes me laugh at the absurdity of it.

                Next thing they will be saying the Nats are better economic managers and that has not been born out in the past. .

          • Shanreagh 19.1.1.2.2
            20 January 2023 at 1:09 pm

            I used to work in a government department. When I was there, it would have been almost necessary to murder the boss to get sacked

            That kind of myth was well and truly put to bed after the Employment Contracts Act came in during the 1980s. Couple that with continuous restructurings and many of us clung to our jobs, or tried to after wave after wave of management consultants plus CEs wreaked havoc.

          • Tony Veitch 19.1.1.2.3
            20 January 2023 at 1:21 pm

            And running a company isn't that different from running a country. Both require strong vision, a sound knowledge of finance, good administration skills, and the ability to manage and relate to people.

            And Luxon ran Air NZ along those lines?

            Not according to people I have talked with; according to them he had few people skills.

            Luxon will govern only for those he considers worthwhile – the 1% and their 9% enablers, not the bottom-feeders!

        • Peter 19.1.1.3
          20 January 2023 at 2:25 pm

          Of course Bridges could not cross the floor. As Michelle Boag said, "The opposition's job is to oppose."

          Good governance, the common good, the good of the people doesn't come into it. It's better to be in power, grow a massive housing crisis and poverty and put people up in motels than be in opposition.

          • Shanreagh 19.1.1.3.1
            20 January 2023 at 3:12 pm

            Is this the same Michelle Boag who wondered about the other 18 Covid versions before Covid 19? No thanks…..not got a lot of time for Michelle Boag and her pronouncements.

      • Anne 19.1.2
        20 January 2023 at 6:41 pm

        Running a major company tsmithfield is nothing like running a country. Running a country is way more complicated and nuanced. It is a fallacy to say that anyone who has run a big company has an advantage. Knowing how to balance the books doth not necessarily a good prime minister make.

        Apols to someone for pinching their line – prob. Shakespeare.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 19.1.2.1
          20 January 2023 at 9:49 pm

          Agree. And it is part of the related fallacy so loved by the NActs – that a country is in fact just another business, and should be run as one. NZ Incorporated and all that crap.

  20. Thinker 20
    20 January 2023 at 11:34 am

    It isn't just women who get the vitriol. I left the public sector after it became clear, from watching colleagues and from things that were said to me, that the propensity to bring diversity into the public sector is breeding an acceptable discrimination of people like me. Where previously I'd been valued for my old-school professionalism and length of service, it suddenly changed to it being acceptable to call me 'male pale and stale' and give priority for things like training to other people, until the 'm, p & s' group gradually realise they are tolerated, rather than valued, then leave to make way for a more diverse group. My opinion, yes, but certainly not just mine alone.

    Generally, too, NZ society has tolerated increasing amounts of vitriol and violence rather than deal with it until now we have a generation living in some kind of virtual video game of their minds that says that harassment and violence are accepted behaviour.

    On top of that is the gradual eroding of living standards for what I like to call the "bottom 90%" as the greed is good element must have more and more.

    • Shanreagh 20.1
      20 January 2023 at 11:49 am

      Agree with this

      and especially this about living in a virtual video game

      Generally, too, NZ society has tolerated increasing amounts of vitriol and violence rather than deal with it until now we have a generation living in some kind of virtual video game of their minds that says that harassment and violence are accepted behaviour.

      The value of experience was denigrated, along with those with the experience, through all the Public service restructurings that I was involved in. This was .mainly because of the 'Emperor has No Clothes' ability of longer serving employees to see, and often state, the obvious. Speaking later to others involved we marvelled that experience had been devalued from a plus for a business to 'baggage' and a minus. This meant continued relearning and massive amounts of wasted money.

      It got to the stage that whenever we had a change in CEO we had a restructuring and at some stages we were churning through them every two years. I had 4 years of employment with no restucturings to be head hunted back into my mainstream department to find that they had had three restructurings in the time I was away.

      The virtual video game comment is worthy of being read as commentary on the points made by Muttonbird here.

      Muttonbird

      20 January 2023 at 10:28 am

  21. Obtrectator 21
    20 January 2023 at 1:01 pm

    With the greatest regret, I've had to conclude that another female leader at this point would be a serious tactical error. There's a lot of bile still out there, waiting to be spilled. Don't give it another obvious target. Let the gammons have their MAWM or OWM, at least till after October. Then watch their unfocused anger build as the cost of living continues to rise, and their second-plus house(s) continue to fall in price. Wonder who'll cop it then?

    • Shanreagh 21.1
      20 January 2023 at 1:05 pm

      I agree. The misogynists don't need another target and neither do the racists. After October is the time to reassess and bring some new ones in for the future.

      • Tony Veitch 21.1.1
        20 January 2023 at 1:26 pm

        After October we will have a continuation of a very successful Labour government, probably in coalition with both the Greens and Ti Pati Maori.

  22. Mike the Lefty 22
    20 January 2023 at 1:12 pm

    In retrospect perhaps Jacinda was a victim of her own success.

    She was so capable as a leader that people came to believe she could do anything and their admiration turned to vilification when they realized that she couldn't.

    For all her admirable qualities Jacinda was just as human as the rest of us, having her triumphs and her mistakes – not a demigoddess as sections of the media wanted to believe.

    I wish her well as she reclaims her personal life and can devote more attention to her little daughter and partner, who have surely missed her not being there as often as she would have wanted to be.

    You were a good PM Jacinda and I'm glad you were at the controls during the past five years.

  23. newsense 23
    20 January 2023 at 3:10 pm

    Henry Cooke has written a number of dubious articles since scuttling overseas. Here we go again, his headline in the Guardian:

    “Jacinda Ardern’s shock exit imperils her legacy and her party”

    and …

    “But while her exit is understandable on a human level, it is confounding on a political one. Labour MPs and supporters have every right to be furious.”

    and

    “Ardern has lost the chance to really embed her vision of social democracy into the country with another win.”

    Twerp.

    Another Cooke Herald piece for the Guardian…

    • MickeyBoyle 23.1
      20 January 2023 at 5:28 pm

      Not everyone was enamored by the PM.

      That's just the reality of life that we must accept. Others have different views.

      • Shanreagh 23.1.1
        20 January 2023 at 9:36 pm

        You don't need to be enamoured of anyone, just not cover and smother them with hate and vitriol or place them at front and centre of your latest absurd conspiracy theories.

        There is a middle ground you know.

      • newsense 23.1.2
        21 January 2023 at 6:21 am

        Well, yes and no. Writing in the Torygraph maybe. But as a column representing New Zealand to Guardian readers- no. Don’t have to accept it. Thank fuck for Sam Neil eh?

        ‘Imperils’ her work during the mosque attacks or how successfully her government worked during the pandemic? Imperils her leadership for women and girls?

        What a silly thing to say and a sillier thing to defend.

        @Peter or the contra- if enough people were electing her for social democracy then there will be plenty to emerge to continue the work. It’s not a messianic democracy where ideas work, but only with one person. Or where an idea needs one leader to embed it or else it fails. National seem to be able to recycle crime, tax cuts and welfare bashing ad nauseum.

    • Peter 23.2
      20 January 2023 at 5:50 pm

      Embed her vision of social democracy? Surely social democracy demands a philosophy of 'we're all in this together.'

      Jacinda Ardern could have that vision as much as she wanted but it is never going to be a goer in NZ. The vision, the aspiration, the hope meeting the reality of the selfish, self-centred, every man and woman for her/himself, the monied ruling everything as the prevailing culture would see to that.

    • Patricia Bremner 23.3
      20 January 2023 at 8:06 pm

      Henry Cooke, angry. Like Bryce Edwards, very to the right of the middle.

  24. Adrian 24
    20 January 2023 at 3:36 pm

    My wife was disappointed with my reaction when she relayed the news, it was “ Good , I’m glad “, “What? “ she demanded, I replied “ She has gotten out alive, thank the Gods”, I had been dreading the worst possible scenario.

    She has been outstanding and has made most of us feel a little taller. Thank you Jacinda.

    • satty 24.1
      20 January 2023 at 3:52 pm

      Don't know. What makes you think those "people" leave her alone now?

      • Shanreagh 24.1.1
        20 January 2023 at 5:24 pm

        Yes that is certainly a fear.

      • Visubversa 24.1.2
        20 January 2023 at 6:00 pm

        She could do with a good, long overseas holiday. Or maybe a nice job with the WHO or the ILO. She and her family are not safe here thanks to the frootloops and assholes and she does not need to be constantly looking behind her if she moves on for a while.

        • Anne 24.1.2.1
          20 January 2023 at 6:24 pm

          I agree. Without the DPB safety net she is exposed to the lunatics and their enablers who will see it as a mark of manhood to physically arrack her and/or her family.

          In the interest of her safety and the safety of her family and anyone else associated with her, the police should be conducting a full investigation with a view to weeding out the culprits and their enablers and removing them from society.

          • Visubversa 24.1.2.1.1
            20 January 2023 at 9:03 pm

            They could start with the assholes who leave obscene and/or threatening messages on her local office phone overnight. If the Police had cracked down on more of those people earlier, it may not have got this bad. The person who works in the office has to put up with this filth every working day.

            • Anne 24.1.2.1.1.1
              20 January 2023 at 10:35 pm

              If the Police had cracked down on more of those people earlier, it may not have got this bad. The person who works in the office has to put up with this filth every working day.

              I sometimes get the feeling that the police don't want to go down that road. Too difficult? And of course the majority of victims are women…..

          • Shanreagh 24.1.2.1.2
            20 January 2023 at 9:41 pm

            I agree. Also we are overdue for the report on the Police investigation into the funding flows to those behind the Parliamentary occupation last year.

  25. mosa 25
    20 January 2023 at 6:14 pm

    " The more recent level of vitriol shown to her was extreme "

    But Mickey Savage aka Greg Presland you are a hypocrite. You use this site to run down commentators from the left !

    Which sends the message loud and clear that you are not what real Labour used to represent and that is " shock horror " working people and the many disadvantaged by New Labour and its adherence to unregulated capitalism which supports the middle class who have money and the top elites.

    There is a huge underclass in your country that is hidden by the media and LINO and of course the nasty Natz.

    They were represented once and are solicited for their vote from Adern and her colleague's and probably Hipkins after Sunday but NEVER deliver including the working groups that cost huge amounts of money they commissioned to then ignore their recommendations.

    " Our society could now usefully reflect on whether it wants to continue to tolerate the excessive polarisation which is making politics an increasingly unattractive calling.”

    Yes I agree but you could make a start by not attacking those of us on the left.

    • Shanreagh 25.1
      20 January 2023 at 9:47 pm

      'Ardern', the way you spell it is how ignorant righties spell it.

      I think it is the hallmark of a good society that we do feel free to remind our politicians from the left and right where we believe they can do better. Labour is now a broader church than where it started. So if TS commentators criticise our own from the point of view of seeking improvements then I have no problem with that.

      I do agree with the view though that looking after the most disadvantaged in our society is a good place to start/continue efforts of change

      • mosa 25.1.1
        21 January 2023 at 9:59 am

        Ardern ( corrected ) I certainly don't want to be in the group you describe.

        " I do agree with the view though that looking after the most disadvantaged in our society is a good place to start/continue efforts of change "

        When you have support like this I don't hold out much hope.

        ” Stuff political editor Luke Malpass says that Hipkins is the obvious pick, not just because of his political skills and high profile but because he’s more rightwing: “He is also a centrist politician and further to the right of the Labour Party, putting him in a strong position to re-orient Labour to take on the economic challenges it will face this year.”

        ” The Herald’s Audrey Young is also sure that Hipkins is the right person to lead ”

        Well those endorsement’s say it all. When you have the right wing press advancing a possible LINO leader you know instinctively that it will be more of the same unregulated capitalism we are getting now and not what LINO and Ardern asked its poorest supporters to vote for …twice under the guise of transformation.

        The right and its media sycophants have the gall to be debating a snap election when this government was elected to a three year term regardless who the figurehead is.

        • Anne 25.1.1.1
          21 January 2023 at 10:32 am

          Don't fall for the line mosa. Those comments, in my view, are wishful thinking from a couple of naturally right leaning journos – especially Audrey Young.

          I've been in and out of the Labour traps for decades so believe I can claim some insights. In an economics sense he's middle of the road but in other areas he's a good, left-of-centre politician. Maybe not left enough for some but no right winger.

          Let's see who his deputy will be. That should give us a lead.

          • mosa 25.1.1.1.1
            21 January 2023 at 5:57 pm

            Yes totally agree Anne. I am happy with Michael or Kiri as deputy and I really do want to see Chris Hipkins bring all of us on the left together to fight what will be the horror show of National -ACT dictatorship.

        • Shanreagh 25.1.1.2
          21 January 2023 at 10:45 am

          Cheers Mosa.

          As Anne says these journos are one-eyed.

          We get ready to support the new PM and we get ready to support the campaign as only if Labout is re-elected will we get the structural reforms that are necessary to give all our citizens a fair go.

          • mosa 25.1.1.2.1
            21 January 2023 at 6:03 pm

            " We get ready to support the new PM and we get ready to support the campaign as only if Labout is re-elected will we get the structural reforms that are necessary to give all our citizens a fair go.

            Yes Shanreagh if Chris Hipkins can hit the ground running and signal his commitment to so many who are marginalised and doing it tough and also acknowledge that tax reform is needed to level the playing field then he will have my undivided attention.

            Anne is very wise and has a long history with the party and reading her comments has made me a little less cynical.

            Your comment is appreciated.

            • Patricia Bremner 25.1.1.2.1.1
              21 January 2023 at 11:07 pm

              Mosa, he took some of the rights' words and memes about work, which gives them pause… then he looked into the camera and said 'I promise to do something for those doing it tough" Keep hope Mosa.

  26. Reality 26
    20 January 2023 at 7:19 pm

    Luxon with his foot in his mouth today again and then having to back peddle re his comment women are no more subject to vitriol than men. Nicola must have had words with him.

  27. Stuart Munro 27
    20 January 2023 at 7:24 pm

    Well, I'm grateful for her work – I wish we had another hundred like her.

    And, Jacinda, you are the Diana Rigg of NZ politics, be you never so old there will always be a place if and when you are ready to return.

  28. Mike the Lefty 28
    20 January 2023 at 7:35 pm

    Isn't it ironic that Jacinda sometimes looses sleep and fears for her safety when she always tried to do her best for New Zealand, whilst people like Roger Douglas and Richard Prebble did their best to screw New Zealanders, yet THEY sleep in peace and don't need a minder.

    What a f….d up country this is!

    • Maggy Wassilieff 28.1
      20 January 2023 at 10:30 pm

      Weren't Roger Douglas and Richard Prebble Labour Party Ministers of the Crown?

      I stopped voting Labour when those chaps brought in their "reforms".

      • Mike the Lefty 28.1.1
        21 January 2023 at 10:50 am

        Labour in name only. To its eternal shame Labour allowed itself to be led into championing neo-liberal market led policies by Douglas, Prebble, Caygill and others. All of whom later formed the ACT party. I also never voted Labour for over a decade after that.

  29. newsense 29
    21 January 2023 at 6:37 am

    The next fight will be for the truth of what had happened in the country in the last 5 years.

    Look at all the headlines already to go from a bunch of pontificators about judging her achievements. The daft quotes about imperiling legacy and so on.

    The story of what she’s achieved and how well the economy has performed need to be told. Rubbish dismissals of the term’s achievements or false equivalences must be challenged. Tucker Carlson fans seen as just that.

    We’ve already seen the right jump on any narrative it pleases, sometimes several opposing narratives in a day in the case of Chris Luxon, just to push towards power. They invite in anti-vaxxers and all kinds of anti-social, feral forces as long as they’re agitating for change. As in the Republican chamber, the louder and more antisocial, the more space they grab on the right. They then try to tell their teleological histories to justify their speil.

    As we’ve seen there’s already been a push to rationalize and deny the abuse and nasty behavior suffered, using a number of strategies.

  30. Jenny are we there yet 30
    21 January 2023 at 7:26 am

    When Jacinca Ardern as this country's leader said "Be kind New Zealand" too many New Zealanders chose instead to hate.

    I am so sorry the Prime Minister has resigned. The seventh of February is so near. I wish she would reconsider. I wish the nation would gather round our Prime Minister and support her and buoy her up with the kindness she wished us, until her tank was overflowing

    Why can't we do that?

    Why can't kindness prevail, just for once.

    I fear for the future

    My fear is tinged with anger that hate has brought down our country's leader.

    We live in a world where the aggressor is the victim, where children live under falling bombs, where kindness is a sin and a weakness is a target.

    Since hearing the news, my grief has not diminished at this victory of hate over kindness. Instead my dread has grown.

    As the country and the world head toward economic recession the need for kindness is greater than ever.

    Goodbye Jacinda Ardern we cry with you.

  31. cathy-O 31
    21 January 2023 at 11:28 am

    a small note, how often did you see a smile on Clarke Gayfords face until the photos of him and Jacinda after her announcement?

    • Jenny are we there yet 31.1
      21 January 2023 at 9:34 pm

      This is a pretty petty comment.

      The first ever intimation that I have heard from anyone that Clarke Gayford was not happy with his partner being Prime Minister.

      This is an unsubstantiated slur on the Prime Minister's personal relationship

      In effect what are you saying, that the PM quit to please her man?

      I bet you wouldn't say that if the roles were reversed and the Prime Minster was a man and his partner was a woman,

      Great men and women belong to the world. Their partners and loved ones understand that.

      The vast majority of commentators agree that the PM quit because of the massive hate campaign waged against her. No one els has ever even hinted that the PM didn't have the full support of her partner or family.

      • Incognito 31.1.1
        22 January 2023 at 11:02 am

        Instead of asking for clarification you assumed, judged, and then went in full-attack mode. Ask before you shoot!

        • weka 31.1.1.1
          22 January 2023 at 11:17 am

          amazing eh. I read it and took it to mean that CG is now happy, not because he resents JA being PM, but now the stress and pressure that was harming her is coming to an end.

          I'm guessing. Haven't seen before and after photos, nor paid much attention.

      • Shanreagh 31.1.2
        22 January 2023 at 11:13 am

        Agree with this. An easy way to check if something is sexist is to reverse the roles…would we be making a comment about a male person?

        • weka 31.1.2.1
          22 January 2023 at 11:19 am

          Grant Robertson was PM for five years and was increasingly targeted with homophobic slurs and abuse, in the end it was incessant. In addition to the death threats.

          When he finally resigned, his partner was seen smiling again, because the partner knew that Robertson's stress and burnout from the abuse was coming to an end.

          Something like that?

          • Shanreagh 31.1.2.1.1
            22 January 2023 at 11:39 am

            Was it Deputy PM? Yes well aware of the homophobic slurs.

            Perhaps I should have said difference. Weak minded people will always focus on difference.

            I do believe the pitch of anti women, misogyny was excessive and cannot easily be compared with anything that has gone before. Having seen sexism up close and personal I for one don't want to see it again for any individuals or any individuals in power.

            I also believe that a place to start as individuals is to gently call out those who say they 'hate' this or that.

            What comes after hate except action. And what type of action would it be…..not sowing seeds for a crop of vegetables or going for a walk that is for sure.

            • weka 31.1.2.1.1.1
              22 January 2023 at 3:09 pm

              Was it Deputy PM?

              No. You said,

              Agree with this. An easy way to check if something is sexist is to reverse the roles…would we be making a comment about a male person?

              And I created a scenario where a man was in the role of PM and getting personalised, targeted, bigoted abuse instead. GR as PM as a gay man.

              I can't see anything inherently sexist about cathy's comment.

      • weka 31.1.3
        22 January 2023 at 11:20 am

        In effect what are you saying, that the PM quit to please her man?

        No, that isn't implied in the short comment by cathy-O, it's entirely in your head Jenny. As Incog said, why jump to conclusions and attack when you can ask for clarification?

    • Shanreagh 31.2
      22 January 2023 at 11:11 am

      Link please. There are some smilely photos when they met the Queen, just recently on these boards.

      I am sure any partner would be supportive and relieved when their loved one had got through a momentous occasion such as this.

      We also know per the speech & current affairs/pressures that their wedding has had to be delayed. I for one was glad of this as I was fearful some sort of nutter would have tried it on at the time.

      Is there a particular reason why this is significant?

      Would this be significant for a male leader? What was Mrs Bridges expression? Or Mrs Mullins?

  32. rrm 32
    22 January 2023 at 9:30 pm

    While we are on the subjects of vitriol and misogyny, never forget that somebody wrote the below song about John Key; all of the woke lovey dovey student radio stations played it, Jacinda Ardern tweeted that she " <3 " the band, and some people on here even defended it:

    That’s why I’m going to kill the Prime Minister. I’m going to kill the Prime Minister, because we are down and suffering and the motherfucker ain’t doing nothing. Going to kill the Prime Minister.

    One of these days I’m going to fuck your daughter. This poor boy going to make his seed, going to wake up in your girl – well hello Miss Key.

    Can you imagine the outrage if that had been about Jacinda Ardern?

    If a lot of the names she has been called are gendered and sexualised, that is merely a function of the fact that we are an unimaginative species, and our worst curses tend to be slang names for body parts or sex acts.

    She is the first New Zealand Prime Minister since Muldoon to suppress political dissent with armed violence. The protest was about basic bodily autonomy. "My body my choice" you could say. I'm not surprised there are people out there who are very angry at her.

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