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Second leaders’ debate

Written By: - Date published: 9:21 pm, September 4th, 2017 - 114 comments
Categories: election 2017 - Tags:

A much better debate, but English doubling down on the lies about Labour’s fiscal plan.

114 comments on “Second leaders’ debate ”

  1. Ed 1

    Gower is the personification of everything that is wrong with New Zealand’s media.
    The imbecility and buffoonery of the political conversation led by the media is quite something.

    • eco Maori/kiwi 1.1

      Jacainda was good she was cool calm and won the debate but the audience looked 2 to1 in favour of national still cheating Bill. And Hooton clearly is Bills Muppet puppet I try to refrain from using those 2 words but its to obvious to me that is what is happening

    • John 1.2

      I totally agree
      some of those questions were imbecilic, childish, pathetic and didn’t add to the “debate” at all – a waste of a great opportunity.
      Paddy Gower should leave the bloody building and unlike Elvis never come back – he was a total embarrassment as a moderator.
      As for letting English waffle on and on and yell over both Gower and at times Adern – inept!!

    • patricia bremner 1.3

      Gower sets out to appear harmless.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3.1

        …and fails.

        All these false binary questions he badgers people with don’t bring any clarity to the debate, they distort it to fit a pre-determined framework.

        It’s nice to get a simple “yes or no” answer, when it’s relevant to the topic.

    • xanthe 1.4

      couldn’t watch more than a few minutes. stupid questions , like hoskins it was all about gower, waste of my time and theirs. I believe the only purpose is to give the “opinion makers” a chance to say who “won” .. sad, pointles, crap

  2. DSpare 2

    Uncommitted voters???

    The applause seems rather partisan.

    • Ed 2.1

      Well observed.
      Funny that.
      The media lied.
      Again.

    • chris73 2.2

      Seems like it eh

    • mosa 2.3

      Yeah and good old Mediaworks just can’t leave their political bias out of it by letting Hooten have the last word and time by a tirade of Labour lying about tax.

      Like Key lied about no tax increases in 2008 only to hike GST which they had every intention of doing but never campaigned on it.

      It is the same tactics National have used in the last two election campaigns and the media are gleefully encouraging the negative coverage of it.

      • Eco maori 2.3.1

        This behavior of the neo liberals is shocking and goes against our KIWI values.
        But the neo liberals no that the people like Labour/Greens won’t do what national neo liberals will do to get into or keep in power. As cheating lying is not Accepted in the mind set of the people of the left and this human trait has been exploited by those BASTARD neo liberals for century’s . This is why I say we need to Change laws so this can not happen and this human trait has been used against the people fighting for the oppressed and our environment. THE HOLE WORLD OVER.
        Obama would not behave like that this bad and cheating behaviour is not in his DNA so let’s make some intelligent laws to stop this shit happening again for ever.

        • Eco maori 2.3.1.1

          The neo liberals must think we have we have a multi universe well no still a pipe dream so let’s not let them. FUCK UP the one WORLD WE HAVE

          • Eco maori 2.3.1.1.1

            And this human trait has been the main reason I have not got a nest egg for my family.
            I put to much trust in people.
            So I have learn this lesson the hard way and I won’t let anyone shit on my FAMILY

    • Cinny 2.4

      strongly agree, was thinking how were they selected and how many were planted there.

  3. Robert Guyton 3

    Will deception prevail?

    • Ed 3.1

      You mean does lying and shouting over people win an argument?
      No.

      • Robert Guyton 3.1.1

        By deception I mean misleading, misrepresenting, making false claims, denying reasonable explanation and yes, lying. All of those techniques and more are effective, as we’ve seen in the past few years, but are they still effective, is what I’d like to know? Will English, Joyce et al. get away with it this time round? Have we, the “audience”, smartened-up enough to see and reject the deception?

        • DSpare 3.1.1.1

          Matthew Hooton is on the panel, so I don’t think we are through with deception just yet.

          Speaking of deception; English’s claim that he would swim in the Oreti river. NO!! You can not swim in the Oreti river, even around Dipton. Possibly up near the Mavora lakes in DOC land, but it’d be pretty cold and barely more than a creek there.

          • Psycho Milt 3.1.1.1.1

            Ah, but if you were following it closely, you could hear the plausibly deniable Billshit element: he couldn’t swim there now because people have filled in the swimming holes with gravel. Nicely done – there’s the implication that of course you’d be able to swim there if, gosh darn it, all the swimming holes hadn’t been filled in, without explicitly saying so. Intensive farming? No, nothing to see here folks…

            • DSpare 3.1.1.1.1.1

              My brain must have shorted out at the sheer ridiculousness of the claim (I’m sure he said; “you still can [swim in the Oreti river]”), that I missed the weaselly modifiers.

          • esoteric pineapples 3.1.1.1.2

            I thought that was an interesting comment about gravel in the fishing hole and wonder what has been going on there. In the Wairarapa, Greater Wellington Regional Council has been carrying out flood management and erosion work on most of the major rivers, that has completely killed fish life in the Ruamanhanga River which is the biggest one they all feed into, by amongst other things using bulldozers to grade the river bed, so that there are no longer any pools and eddies for fish to survive and rest in. Fishers have told me the river is now almost completely stuffed.

  4. esoteric pineapples 4

    Bill English claims whether people get charged for possession of marijuana it is up to police discretion. Total bollocks. It is a widely believed myth that police turn a blind eye to MJ when in fact there are a huge number of people charged and convicted.

    • snik 4.1

      In 2015 it was announced by the chief of police that police may deal with cannabis possession at their discretion, which was already effectively in practice but is now official. That clearly does not mean no-one is ever convicted, but that officers on the ground have a licence to call it on a case basis. I’ve read statistics indicating you’re more likely to be let off the richer and whiter you are.

  5. DSpare 5

    English was pretty uncomfortable on the abortion question. But there is no way the present system is even; “broadly speaking”, a good one. Ardern was solid on taking it out if the crimes act and treating it as a health issue, but the debate format isn’t good at getting to details.

    • Tanz 5.1

      A set up question for Bill. What a red biased debate, and Paddy was not neutral. Bill rocked home though, relaxed, laughing, full of substance rather than vague slogans.
      Stacked audience, but I think they warmed to Bill as the debate wore on. He owned it.

      • Cinny 5.1.1

        What cause would you march for Bill? I’d march for myself he says.

        • Tanz 5.1.1.1

          That’s because he is doing an outstanding job, Cinny. New Zealand is blessed to have Bill, we are now famous worldwide, we have jobs, beauty, homes galore and there are opportunities everywhere. He has a right to feel proud, if he gets another three years, isn’t that something of a record for any main party.
          Good on him for marching for himself, rather than loathing himself as many Westerners seem to want to do.

          • Anne 5.1.1.1.1

            we have jobs, beauty, homes galore and there are opportunities everywhere.

            She’s deaf, blind and dumb. Hasn’t seen the beggars in the streets, the homeless, the families living in cars and cruddy old garages. Hasn’t seen or heard of the degradation of our ‘beauty’ spots, the filthy rivers. Too stupid to appreciate when a whole generation grows up in an insecure environment, no secure jobs, no secure future, they turn to drugs and other wasting activities.

            Sad really.

    • snik 5.2

      The political line of attack demanding details, specifics and numbers is another classic political red herring all told. Bill’s assertion that ‘you can’t go shopping with Jacinda’s values’ is apart from anything else an assumption – it depends on what those assumptions manifest into.
      Of course I’m keen to know the concrete plan but also aware that a well-informed and all-inclusive strategy takes time to quantify and develop a workable framework. Insisting on actual targets and numbers and all the rest is asking for a disingenuous estimate.
      In lieu of pending bottom lines, a certain degree of our support for whichever party we choose will always be on faith, that is to say, we vote for whose values we feel align best with our own.

  6. esoteric pineapples 6

    discussing who won the debate straight after the debate – a bit weird

    • Pat 6.1

      and Hooten has earned his pay after 2 comments….

    • hoom 6.2

      Not that its straight after but that its in the same room with the leaders literally visibly standing there right behind.
      Thats really friggin’ weird.

      Jacinda easy win to me.
      But there’s no accounting for Rightwing voters **shrug**

  7. Union city greens 7

    Hooten, you need a drink, bro lol

  8. And here he is again: Newshub presents us with “political commentator” Matthew Hooton, here to tell us all about how Bill English made a great breakthrough tonight and Jacinda Ardern isn’t being honest about Labour’s tax policy, for all the world as though he wasn’t just a National Party spin doctor. What the fuck?

    • nzsage 8.1

      I thought the same PM. That RW troll must have something on someone to keep getting invited onto TV3 to expel his propagandist bile.

      • In Vino 8.1.1

        Who runs TV3? A Private company, Right-Wing Board of directors voted in by a largely right-wing bunch of share-holders.
        So why would anyone expect fair, unbiased presentation???
        Since TV1 became a state-owned enterprise, same applies.

    • swordfish 8.2

      Deja vu

      Immediately following both 2002 TVNZ Election Debates – Deborah Hill-Cone (reviewing each Debate in the TVNZ studio – she informally representing the Right – Chris Trotter representing the Left) assured the audience that this time Bill English had finally made his great breakthrough & we were all about to see this reflected in the Polls

      By the time she was forced to repeat this pre-prepared line a 2nd time (following the 2nd Debate) – Hill-Cone was beginning to look just a wee bit desperate

      Tragically it was all for nowt – Bill plunging the Nats to 21%

    • North 8.3

      I’m incredulous that TV3 invited National’s spin doctor Hooton to come along as a ‘political commentator’. It’s rank. It’s dishonest. I could have handled the right leaner…….Billy Boy Ralston for example……..but a Dirty Politics actor ???

  9. seeker 9

    Well that shut Paddy Gower up (9.41pm) as they went to break. Stunning response from Jacinda, “We can do that now Paddy,” on decriminalising cannabis question.
    So surprised by Gower’s expression and silence, that I forgot the actual statement that caused her response.

    • solkta 9.1

      Yes but her response was otherwise pathetic in that the only thing she had to say was that cannabis users all need rehab. Do alcohol users also all need rehab? That’s a lot of rehab.

      • esoteric pineapples 9.1.1

        That’s the problem when a lot of your potential voters are “straights”. You can’t afford to be totally honest for fear of losing them. That is why the Greens are important for Labour. They can push agendas that Labour isn’t in a position to do.

        • weka 9.1.1.1

          It was still a stupid thing to say. She could just have stuck to the line of shifting from it being a criminal issue to it being a health issue.

  10. gsays 10

    “… so last century”

    Government funding 60% of private rental market and Bill is boasting about increasing that %!

    English’s constant referencing the “average” wage, there must be some folk on a damn good wicket.

  11. Tricledrown 11

    Jacinda didn’t give an inch and the audience responded to her far more than Bill concentrated on scaremongering.

  12. The Real Matthew 12

    Jacinda needs to provide more detail. She comes across as being aspirational and values driven but she fails to turn that into detailed policy. It’s all a bit airy fairy and Bill is very good with his numbers.

  13. esoteric pineapples 13

    My mind turns off every time Bill starts to speak. It all sounds like gibberish to me.

  14. Union city greens 14

    I’m not a labour voter, but Jacinda had the best of that, without a doubt.

    Messed with the wrong girl

  15. Anne 15

    Jacinda won it hands down and poor old Matty boy looked and acted like he was about to have coronary…

    • Muttonbird 15.1

      He’s still recovering from the bitchslapping he got from Soper and Pagani on the radio this afternoon.

    • ankerawshark 15.2

      Mathew Hooton on about the CGT, I couldn’t help but wonder how many rental properties he owns…………..

  16. Stuart Munro 16

    Matt’s big claim for Bill – a poverty target Gower had to feed him – so lame.

  17. feijoa 17

    I felt sick when I saw Matthew Hooten there

    The Nats are really pulling out all the stops now aren’t they?
    I guess at least Jacinda knows now how they are going to attack her

    • mosa 17.1

      ” I felt sick when i saw Hooten there ”

      My nausea started when English and Gower came into view and worsened with the crap that Bill is still selling after the last nine years.

  18. mauī 18

    “Bill, what would you march in the streets for?”

    “Um.. er.. well.. I would march for myself. I’m so damn good I deserve to be Parliament dammit. ”

    Over in the corner National’s court jester rubs his hands together slowly and prepares his poisonous speech on taxes, the tax working group and how to make deprived children disappear.

    • DSpare 18.1

      And in a segment before that (paraphrashing because I don’t have a photographic, or even very good, memory):
      Gower: “Do you commit to resigning over that matter of principle”
      Ardern: “Yes”
      Gower: “what principle would resign over Prime Minister?”
      English: “Uh… [look of blank incomprehension] I don’t understand the question. What are these ‘principles’ you speak of?”

  19. Tricledrown 19

    Bill English promised 100,000 children out of poverty.
    After 9 years of putting more children in poverty.

  20. Ethica 20

    There’s a poll on the debate on the Herald site. It was flooded by the Nats at the beginning but Jacinda’s going up now. She was such a clear winner and had so many good lines. But obviously some can’t accept the idea of a clever, talented and articulate young woman doing politics at a high level.

    • esoteric pineapples 20.1

      Sounds like its more like a poll on who reads the NZ Herald than who won the debate

      • Pat 20.1.1

        appears to be down at the moment…perhaps theres been a little manipulation…update got it back 53-39 BE , mustve been watching a different debate than me

        • DSpare 20.1.1.1

          The reliability of that NZH “poll” is lessened by the way you can vote multiple times if you can be bothered. Restart your browser and give it a go.

          The ODT poll has it 61% for Ardern, and it is unimportant enough to be likely free of bot spamming (possibly the reason why the NZH poll went down temporarily?). It still has the problem of a selfselecting and likely unrepresentative sample though.

  21. John pow 21

    Bill English made a huge commitment to reducing child poverty, must be billions per year. Stephen Joyce must be having kittens having to add it to his budget plan
    Please call him out on this

  22. Drowsy M. Kram 22

    Bill’s commitment to the target of bringing 100,000 NZ children out of poverty within the next three years is impressive, particularly when you consider the position of the rat who jumped ship after 8+ years – ‘Government won’t commit to a poverty target because it’s too ‘difficult’ – John Key (Oct, 2016)’.

    When, during the last nine years of this National-led government, did the number of children in poverty get so high, or has it been that high for the whole nine years?

    Yes, that’s a ‘Have you stopped beating your wife’ question, but if the Nats couldn’t bring themselves to address this ticking time bomb during the last nine years, can they REALLY be trusted to do so in the next three? Maybe, but only if the solution involves channeling more public money into the bottomless pockets of their wealthy masters.

    Unicef report: New Zealand 34th out of 41 developed countries for child wellbeing

    Time for a change.

    • weka 22.1

      I don’t believe him.

      • DSpare 22.1.1

        Didn’t he also say something about tens of thousands (60 000?) children no longer living in beneficiary households. If that is his definition of bringing NZ children out of poverty, then simply forcing their parents off benefits would achieve it. The children wouldn’t likely be any better off though.

        So the question to ask is; do we believe that English is genuinely committed to bettering the lot of the children of the poor?. Or is it more likely that he will pull an accounting trick, and then declare success; without any real improvement being achieved?

        • Drowsy M. Kram 22.1.1.1

          More than likely, after all ‘our’ Government has plenty of form – Nick Smith improved the water quality of NZ rivers with a stroke of his pen.

    • silvertuatara 22.2

      Given national’s record of adjusting statistics to meet preset goals, if they have made them at all…how is English going to define lifting children out of poverty….the number of happy meals given to the children in poverty? Bold claims which will amount to nothing should National form a government come 23 September 2017.

      More has to be addressed about English’s so called “Social Investment Approach” which is effectively adopting an Orwellian/Gattaca approach in which the ruling powers use “Big Data” and “Targeted welfare” to control the spending choice of the beneficiary, sick and disabled persons, by removing these disenfranchised persons ability to self determine their own choices. We are entering a dangerouse setting when decisions on social services entitlements become effectively determined by a computer spouting out big data, as opposed to reasoned human decision making which a person has the right to review.

  23. feijoa 23

    Looking at the comments on Stuff, there are quite a few wondering about Labours tax plans. The Nats have certainly sowed doubt over that.

    Somehow Labour needs to reframe the tax debate, why we have it, what we receive, how services have been rundown, it is really a form of insurance, and really, lets face it National really dont want you to have a pay increase, so they think the sheeple will be happy with a tax cut instead.

    • ianmac 23.1

      Though in 2009 National set up a Tax working group TWG in the same was as Labour is proposing. National adopted a couple of their proposal but the TWG was Ok for National then but terrible for Labour to do it in 2017.
      So what to do about the facts of the history?

  24. Michael 24

    Labour is guilty of economic incompetence in the eyes of a large part of the voting population (not the same as the electorate), regardless of the facts. However, it seems to me that Labour is in a strong position to win this argument by reiterating the following:
    1. Our spending plans are all within the bottom line of our Fiscal Plan.
    2. That bottom line, since PREFU, is based on the government’s own figures.
    3. Our Fiscal Plan is independently verified by BERL.

    I realise a bit of work of work is needed to distill those three statements into a sound bite (perhaps readers here can assist?) but it seems to me that the logic is sound.

    • Ross 24.1

      Jacinda did remind voters of exactly that last night. She also reminded viewers that the last Labour govt produced 9 budget surpluses…how many have National produced?

      • Michael 24.1.1

        Although Labour’s budget surpluses were achieved during the best economic conditions for NZ since World War 2 (a phenomenon for which Jacinda claimed full credit, on her party’s behalf, during the debate). Those surpluses were also achieved as a result of Labour’s deliberate decisions not to repair some of the damage done by neoliberalism, under its fourth government, and to continue burdening the poor with its costs. Strangely, neither Jacinda nor Bill mentioned this last night. More to the point: Labour’s policies, such as they are, indicate continued devotion to neoliberalism. When or if people figure this out, they will realise Labour is conning them. Again.

  25. Tanz 25

    Herald poll showed English as the clear winner,

    • weka 25.1

      The Standard poll showed Ardern as the clear winner.

      • WILD KATIPO 25.1.1

        And soon Labour + coalition partners ,… and the people of New Zealand… and that’s where it counts .

      • chris73 25.1.2

        But even that poll was pretty close 🙂

      • NewsFlash 25.1.3

        The twitter feed for the debate indicated that the “undecided voter” audience was full of right wing media bosses, shame on the public broadcaster slanting the bias, about time NZ on Air had a Generational Change, like the Govt

      • DSpare 25.1.4

        I threw a couple of dice while saying each leaders name; Ardern got a nine, and English a seven. This seems to me to have exactly as much statistical significance as either the Herald, or the Standard’s “poll” (from, let’s face it; highly biased commenters).

        What really matters is what the truly undecided (not the kind at the debate) thought, and if that will change their voting.

  26. Janet 26

    The way we handle water in New Zealand is not an issue one party can or should decide on. It’s a fundamental issue and labour should step back from their taxing plan and make it a public referendum matter: free at source. taxable, exportable or not. Do that now; it’s costing Labour more votes than they realise.

    • Seems water policy is all over the place these days, … here we have urban dwellers with water meters on their houses, … yet foreign company’s taking water for virtually free with only a token gesture at taxation , … then we have the issue of private residences versus commercial interests , and correct me if I’m wrong ,… there once was a time when you could not dam water on your property , except for farmers for stock. Now we have mass run off of effluent into our rivers…lack of fencing and riparian borders being just some of the issues… and a big part of that is the dairy intensification under National without planning, – much like their whole out of control immigration settings that is now causing our infrastructure to burst at the seams.

      And yet they deny it black and blue all day every day.

      You could be right Janet , it needs to be sorted. But I don’t think we will see any consensus or referendum under the National govt, – just more and more of the same.

      They just dont care.

  27. Ad 27

    If English can continue to blunt Ardern, and hold Labour to the late 30%, he still has a chance of getting a rare 4th term.

    English has improved massively and has clear attack lines (whether they are true or not). He’s learned what the camera needs. She’s a natural, but that advantage is quickly disappearing.

    From now, the one to get best consistent camera time has the best chance at the Undecideds.

    • Carolyn_nth 27.1

      It’s not a First Past the Post election. Undecideds have more choices than just Labour or Nats. Why this false presidential-style debate decades into MMP?

      • Ad 27.1.1

        It pretty much is FPP this time.
        The minors are husks.

        National have trained English to “get up again”.
        So he is.

        There is no inevitability to a change of government.

        But if there is to be one, it all hinges on Jacinda Ardern.

  28. Robert Guyton 28

    Key, English, National denied that there was poverty in New Zealand, said it couldn’t be defined, made every possible excuse for doing nothing about it and now, in the fading moments of the 11th hour, English “passionately” promises to cure it??
    Pleeeeease

    • Cinny 28.1

      Journalists should now be asking how they are going to lift 100,000 kids out of poverty after letting poverty get out of control in NZ for the last nine years.

      • Stuart Munro 28.1.1

        What they need to consider that impoverishment is an ongoing systemic effect of current misgovernance. The various measures all show increases – quite significant increases. So it’s not just a matter of dealing with a fixed number, but also of resetting the failed economic settings that continue to impoverish more all the time.

  29. North 29

    Accidentally ended up with Newshub on TV this morning. Hooton again heralded as a political commentator and lo, ‘policitical commentator’ Michelle Boag is coming on shortly……..champing at the bit according to Garner. Again, rank dishonesty not to give the viewer a proper insight as to where Hooton and Boag are coming from, which is to say the National Party talking points briefing room. Definitionally they are NOT political commentators.

    Also amazes me that the yobbos running these shows give no acknowledgment to the input of the likes of Brian Fallow and others as to the bullshit in the National Party $11 billion hole claim. They seem content rather to lick their own dumb balls on the matter, thus suppressing relevant and expert opinion.

    Rocks me also that after Lloyd Burr’s monstrous fail on the Winnie super’ thing they’re still trotting him out purporting to be authoritative. Bloody hell !

  30. Cynical jester 30

    Jacinda needs to stop saying nationals doing so marvelous. Also wtf was she saying about throwing stoners in rehab!?! Tax evasion and benifit fraud aren’t equal one costs us billions some of her answers make me think she’s just another John Key.

    • Delia 30.1

      She is referring to addiction and alcohol services needing more support. I do not think smoking weed daily is anymore healthy than alcohol or smoking

      • DSpare 30.1.1

        Delia
        Do you have any evidence to back your assertion that cannabis is as harmful as alcohol or smoking tobacco? While it can certainly be a huge waste of time, THC does not seem to be nearly as harmful to the user as those two legal drugs:

        MOE is defined as ratio between toxicological threshold (benchmark dose) and estimated human intake… For individual exposure the four substances alcohol, nicotine, cocaine and heroin fall into the “high risk” category with MOE < 10, the rest of the compounds except THC fall into the “risk” category with MOE 10,000. The toxicological MOE approach validates epidemiological and social science-based drug ranking approaches especially in regard to the positions of alcohol and tobacco (high risk) and cannabis (low risk).

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4311234/

  31. NewsFlash 31

    On the twitter feed last night, a woman was furious that Ardern was constantly interrupting Bill, I don’t like woman who complain about a woman who interrupts a man, who is interrupting a woman constantly, more male privilege being pushed by a Nat supporting woman.

    Its OK for men to interrupt a women, but it’s not OK for a woman to interrupt a man, typical boardroom bullshit.

  32. SpaceMonkey 32

    I did like the assertive “wait!!” Jacinda gave Bill at one stage when he interjected her attempt to answer a question. Brilliant!

  33. Tanz 33

    I thought she sounded rude. She could have at least said please. Bad manners rather than being assertive. And Gower did not run in and rescue BIll, not ever.

  34. Philj 34

    Oh Pain! Paddy’s so called debate that wasn’t, lead me to conclude that the lesser of two twits was Hosking. Oh Pain!

  35. Philj 35

    Did I hear you say Bill you would lift 100,000 children out of poverty because we could now afford to, due to wise financial management over the last nine years? So the poor can go to hell if the country is doing poorly? That is the reality, eh Bill?

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