Shane Jones and work for the dole

Written By: - Date published: 11:24 am, December 4th, 2017 - 94 comments
Categories: nz first, Politics, Shane Jones, Unions, wages, workers' rights - Tags:

Shane Jones has the ability to make the most straight forward proposal contentious.  His recent use of the phrase “work for the dole” has caused some news comment.  If only he could choose his language more carefully because what is being proposed is something different to what he has said.

From Radio New Zealand:

The minister Shane Jones is overseeing a $1 billion regional development fund and told TVNZ’s Q + A programme yesterday he would announce four projects before Christmas.

He wants the government to introduce a work-for-the-dole type scheme where people would receive the minimum wage.

“I don’t want people on the unemployment benefit,” Mr Jones said.

“They’ll be made to go to work, and where it is necessary, to pay them. They’ll have to receive a minimum wage, but there will be no more sitting on the couch.

“I am going to take proposals to Cabinet. I’m calling it Work for the Dole – it may be the Work Readiness Kaupapa. But I am not going to remain silent any longer while my young ne’er-do-well nephews in Kaikohe and other places fall victims to the gangs and they’re in Disneyland. As far as I’m concerned, that’s not happening anymore.”

What is being proposed is no more than current WINZ practice.  Currently people who do not take up offered jobs face the prospect of losing their benefit.

The Union response has been cautious.  Again from Radio New Zealand:

CTU president Richard Wagstaff would support the creation of real work for beneficiaries but not coercion to work for the dole.

Mr Wagstaff said if the minister was talking about having to work for the benefit, that would be below minimum wage, and the union did not support that.

“We do not support people being coerced to work for the dole payment.

“What we do support is the creation of decent work options for people who are unemployed, so they no longer have to go and look for work that doesn’t exist.”

Mr Wagstaff said there was some confusion about what Mr Jones was talking about.

“If we’re talking about a proposal whereby people on the dole are offered real jobs which meet the minimum wage, that’s a different kettle of fish altogether. If that’s what Shane Jones is proposing we’d be interested in hearing more about that.

“If he means we’re getting people who are currently on the dole to work for the number of hours that make up a dole payment then that’s not supported, and it’s an unfortunate and wasteful way of using this investment. Why not simply provide people with work like the rest of us do who are lucky enough to have a job and have them paid without being on the dole. That’s where he should be going.”

The president of First Union, Robert Reid, said his union was opposed to work for the dole schemes and wanted people off the unemployment benefit and into paid work.

“We want people who are on the dole to be able to work for wages. People are wanting to have work, and if those jobs are paying decent wages that is what will actually happen.”

By all means Shane Jones should go ahead and create these jobs.  But linking this to slightly veiled beneficiary bashing is not helpful.

94 comments on “Shane Jones and work for the dole”

  1. The Chairman 1

    Labour say they want to address inequality and poverty while claiming to support the living wage.

    Labour’s job creation policy has the potential to fulfill those aims by creating real jobs paying a living wage.

    Unfortunately, it’s been reduced to a work for the dole scheme offering the minimum wage.

    With around half the kids in poverty today coming from working families, merely creating new jobs no longer goes far enough. If we want to lift more out of poverty and help rejuvenate dying towns, it’s vital these new Government created jobs pay the living wage.

    Labour had/has a real opportunity here to make a major impact, yet it looks as if they are going to waste it.

    • OnceWasTim 1.1

      Really, all Shane Shane hold the ladder steady has done is to create an argument amongst the coalition government’s detractors about the meaning of life and the universe. I can save them the trouble – the answer id 45.
      The only way “Labour had/has a real opportunity here to make a major impact, yet it looks as if they are going to waste it” is going to happen is if you beleive they’re complete fucktards – which they’re not.
      Remind me again …. how long has this government existed? (weeks or days will suffice)

      • The Chairman 1.1.1

        Jacinda has confirmed these jobs having a minimum wage is what is important to Labour.

        Note, she didn’t say a living wage.

        Around 58 seconds into the interview
        http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018624024/pm-jacinda-ardern-on-jones-work-for-the-dole-proposal

        Failing to pay the living wage is a wasted opportunity in this expenditure achieving the Government’s other core aims. Robbing the proposal, its participants and the wider society of seeing its full potential, thus the taxpayer’s bang for buck.

        Lets hope Labour put far more thought into this before they start rolling it out and blow all the money.

        • In Vino 1.1.1.1

          Thanks for your kind concern, you utter leftie, you. (sarc)

          • The Chairman 1.1.1.1.1

            Thanks. Here’s another.

            One hopes Labour aren’t going to socialise losses and privatise gains partnering up with the private sector.

            For example, if Labour are going to cover the labour costs of the private sector, one hopes they’ll reap some share of the company’s profit.

            Otherwise, despite it being touted as work for the dole, it will be more like free labour for the private sector.

            • In Vino 1.1.1.1.1.1

              I hope the same thing, but I don’t constantly rush to present the worst possible scenario as you do – because why? Do you secretly yearn to push Labour and the Left into adopting left-wing policies so rapidly as to make them unpopular? To my mind there seems to be such a pattern in your insincere expressions of concern.

              • The Chairman

                Clearly, I highlight areas of concern so as they can be averted. Moreover, to add to public pressure.

                If we all remain silent, it signals there is no public concern. Alternatively, if we all roar, it signals they better think twice.

                It’s best to air our concerns before policy is put into place.

                Why do you expect left wing policy (that will have widespread benefits) to be vastly unpopular?

        • Tricledrown 1.1.1.2

          Obviously no one commenting on the failure to pay a living wage was listening to the election policies of the coalition parties.
          Promises of increasing the minimum wage to $20 by NZ first.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc) 1.1.2

        OWTim, if you are making a reference to The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, the answer is 42!

        Otherwise, agree with your sentiments.

      • cleangreen 1.1.3

        Yes OWT,

        You are correct here, they all need to settle down and listen ton common sense but take time to let it settle in here.

        In opposition “National” appear to be just starting fires everywhere to mount issues of confrontation here.

        Don’t be fooled by their “”year of discontent” bullshit, lets instead pull together and help labour to make the right decisions here.

        All this other stuff is just national diversions,.

        Meantime we need urgently to stop David Parker making a fuckwit of all of us as e is going around the country now secretly meeting to get support for the TPP11 (or whatever they call it for now)

        We need to raise cane on his secret plans right now.

        URGENT ATTENTION ALL ANTI-TPPA ACTIVISTS
        By Prof Jane Kelsey
        “We discovered less than a week ago that MFAT is hosting ‘consultations’ around the country, with David Parker, this week on the TPPA-11. It appeared to be a last-minute decision to do something before Xmas, and somehow they forgot to send invitations to critics who have attended previous ‘consultations’. Presumably the business sector was given priority notice. There is no information on the MFAT website, but we know at least about these:
        Dunedin: Monday 4 December, 5:15pm – 7:15pm, Otago Southland Employers Association, 16 McBride Street, South Dunedin: Register now
        Auckland: Tuesday 5 December, 6.00 to 7.30pm, Europe House, Auckland University of Technology, 56 Wakefield Street – Register now
        Tauranga: Wednesday 6 December, 8:45am – 10:45am: Smart Business Centre, Bay Central Shopping Centre, 65 Chapel Street Register now
        Hamilton: Thursday 7 December, 4:00pm – 6:00pm, PWC Building, Level 4, 109 Ward Street Register now
        The obvious reaction is WTF? There’s no urgency to do this, as the ministers are apparently not now going to meet during the Buenos Aires WTO ministerial on 10-13 December. That suggests the government has been running focus groups or polling which tells them that people are not buying their spin on the old/new TPPA-11 (please let’s NOT call it the CPTPP). Or that they still hope to get a deal they can settle the remaining four issues and sign in February or March. Consulting now would mean the government could do this, claiming it has consulted, and not try to rush something over January which would create more of an outcry. Then they will have the proper ‘consultation’, when it’s too late to do anything.
        https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/12/04/urgent-attention-all-anti-tppa-activists/

  2. savenz 2

    Yes since minimum wages are actually below a living wage anyway, minimum wages are the least the government should be providing.

    I’d also like to see more business courses available for those on the dole. There was a scheme about 20 years ago when you could propose a business, do work for 6 months and get accountancy and small business advice for free and then (depending on how it went aka you had to prove you were running your business properly) get this for another 6 months. Let’s kickstart a bit of innovation or at least self employment.

    • The Chairman 2.1

      “Yes since minimum wages are actually below a living wage anyway, minimum wages are the least the government should be providing.”

      We changed the Government because we wanted to change the status quo. So why now lower the bar and accept the minimum wage (the status quo)?

      These new Government created jobs have the potential to have a major impact, delivering the Government’s stated aims. Why waste all that taxpayer money and the opportunity to real make a difference?

      Chances like this (the potential to make a real difference) don’t come around to often.

      • savenz 2.1.1

        +1000 CleanGreen.

        TPPA is way more important for both the country and Labour’s future if they screw up and sign it. After Labour denying they were Nat Lite, we get TPPA-11. Greens and NZ first all said they would not sign it!

        Look around Trumps in, because nobody believed Hillary was gonna ditch TPPA.

        In NZ case, the left coalition got in (just) and then first thing they seem to be doing is to do the dirty and secretly to boot.

        FFS we just learned we ‘may’ not be able to sell our own water and overseas profiteers get if for free under previous trade agreement’s they signed. Surely that’s a BIG wakeup call that 6000 pages is just money for jam for Lawyers and an agreement for exploitation!

        Not to mention the IP, straightjacket to stifle innovation and stiff new players in the TPPA agreements.

        • James 2.1.1.1

          Of course the are going to sign the tpp11. Whoever was in government was always going to do so.

          I assume you will all be protesting in the streets afterwards.

          • Ed 2.1.1.1.1

            You see this is the petty stuff you love James with petty puerile barbs always attached.
            Why don’t you go over to Open Thread and express your ideas on plastic, slave immigrant labour and Auckland Transport.
            Just a bit more ephemeral than the name calling that is going on here.

          • cleangreen 2.1.1.1.2

            So nice to see you caring about the potential loss of our future of being toatally controlled by global scagengers comming to take your water and life away from you. (sarc)

            Take a look at what two overseas water bottling companies who were set up just two years ago are now doing (by inlimited extraction of our “free aquifer water”) to our HB water supplly or lack of it.

            Today the water supply is almost running out and on this mornings news the little water comminng our of napier’s residential taps is brown (rustly old pipes now half emptied by lack of water) so Hastings havelock north and central HB will all suffer the same demise.

            Are you concerned?

            No probably if you dont live in HB.

            are you just trolling again as usual James?

            • Ed 2.1.1.1.2.1

              Clean Green, you are wasting your energies.
              James is not interested in meaningful debate and discussion.

            • james 2.1.1.1.2.2

              I corrected your “facts” in the other post.

            • james 2.1.1.1.2.3

              “So nice to see you caring about the potential loss of our future of being toatally controlled by global scagengers comming to take your water and life away from you”

              So I wonder why this government looks like they will sign it? hmm….

              You going to be protesting against them?

          • savenz 2.1.1.1.3

            I hope the new government grow a spine and prove you wrong, James.

  3. Pat 3

    wait for the details before going off half cocked

    • In Vino 3.1

      Pat, who are you addressing? If you want to reply to Chairman, use the Reply button.
      It looks like you are addressing the writer of the original post up top of page. Are you?

      • Pat 3.1.1

        certainly not addressing MS (original author) …the address is general having followed the comments on previous posts

  4. McGrath 4

    I thought Labour was against work for the dole schemes? It seems a very “National” approach to things, which is surprising.

    • savenz 4.1

      Shane Jones is NZ First and probably something they would endorse. Who knows? Too little information.

    • Naki man 4.2

      Its a great idea, get them off the couch planting trees.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3

      I suggest you read Jones’ actual suggestion rather than the headline. Also, you may recall he isn’t a Labour MP.

    • mickysavage 4.4

      That is why the phrasing is so bad. Labour fully supports job creation and increasing the minimum wage. The preference of us activists is that these jobs be at the living wage.

      Calling them “work for dole” is just stirring.

      • Mickey Boyle 4.4.1

        I’ve always thought Shane Jones was more suited to the National benches, day by day that thought gains momentum.

      • Enough is Enough 4.4.2

        As long as doing this back breaking work for minimum wage is optional then this is a good thing.

        However no matter how much spin you put on it, this is “work for the dole” if you lose the dole for not turning up to Shane’s work gang.

        That is the stuff that Don Brash used to promote and would be very proud of.

      • OnceWasTim 4.4.3

        “Calling them “work for dole” is just stirring”

        Exactly.
        When Mr Porn and the leader of the coalition and her deputy (Mr Porn’s boss) get to have a discussion (or perhaps I should say – converrrrsayshun), there’ll be areas in which policy overlaps, and other areas where they will not (it could only be over terminology).
        One will be expressing concern about cuzzies sitting on their chuffs and contemplating gang membership, the other about the appearance of forced work and the desire for livable wage/remuneration should they be given an option.

        Then they’ll proceed with what they can agree on. Hopefully sooner rather than later. And hopefully that thing we used to call the 4th Estate will concentrate on what is proposed, implemented and its progress rather than what the label is and whether or not it fits into the ‘entertainment’ section of their fish and chip wrapper
        They could call them (label them maybe) as deNEETers.

      • The Chairman 4.4.4

        “The preference of us activists is that these jobs be at the living wage”.

        Correction, Micky.

        The support for these jobs being at the living wage is far larger than just activists.

        I’m sure those with businesses in small struggling towns around New Zealand would welcome a job creation scheme paying the living wage.

        So to, I suspect, would those who are unemployed and those working and being paid the minimum wage.

        There are also a number of people (non activists and from across the political spectrum) that support reducing inequality and improving poverty, thus it would be fair to say would also support this.

    • Tricledrown 4.5

      It’s not work for the dole it’s work that is paying 3 times the Dole.

  5. lprent 5

    Shane Jones always annoyed me because he was so in love with his damn mouth and with using it to assert confidently about vague bullshit.

    Sure other politicians do that ignoring nonsense. The obvious examples being John Key and Nick Smith. But they were better at the scam.

    Key was always so vague obout what he was promising in his aspirational assertions that it was hard to find any substance. Smith would always talk crap about things that would take years to find out of anything had happened or simply lie about facts because none of the data was public.

    I raised a cheer when Jones departed parliament because it made my life easier. I no longer had to say every other month that he was just a big mouth fool with a headline fetish and a lack of understanding of actual politics. And that taking him seriously was something that only the journos really desperate for headline ever did.

    Maybe I need to write a macro for that, now that he is back in government.

    • garibaldi 5.1

      Exactly lprent, you’ve nailed it. I think this guy is a threat to the coalition because he is such a loose unit.

      • Mickey Boyle 5.1.1

        Yep, if there was one person who could tear apart this union, it would be Jones and a few of his NZ First lackies, especially if Winston left their ranks.

        • timeforacupoftea 5.1.1.1

          Yes “garibaldi” but I would add Willie Jackson to Jones who are loose cannons in our ranks.
          No trust No ability to keep gobs shut, its all about pretty me, look at us.

    • AB 5.2

      Whenever Jones talks, grandiloquence and substance are inversely related.
      If it’s one of those days when he’s marvelling at his own brilliance, he talks shite.

  6. Olwyn 6

    He wants the government to introduce a work-for-the-dole type scheme where people would receive the minimum wage

    That statement suggests to me that he may hope to offer people only the number of hours that would be covered by the dole if it were translated into minimum wage terms, so that they they are re

  7. The government simply employing people to achieve stuff* would probably achieve what Shane Jones is apparently getting technical about. Would piss off the private sector employers though as they would have to actually up their game to employ people rather than having a captive pool of possible hires sitting idle and being punished by the government for them.

    * Actual government services and goals

  8. DH 8

    I don’t know what Jones is like personally but he doesn’t seem the right person for this, he looks to lack empathy.

    Many of these people he refers to are needing more than just a job. They lack many of the life skills we take for granted and really need to be quietly and subtly managed into work IMO. They’ve heaps of potential but just chucking them into a job and expecting it all to run smoothly is pointless. They’re not lazy or useless, many of them simply don’t know any different.

      • In Vino 8.1.1

        Agree fully. Have worked in a Transition Dept of a secondary school. The phrase we used was ‘work-ready’ for students we felt would make a fist of being a good employee. A whole bunch of students were (realistically) never going to be work-ready.
        And don’t blame the school – I think it was quite a good one. With a big, poor suburb nearby. One year we counted 5th form stats for ONLY the students that had begun in the 3rd form and stayed at the school. Our pass rate for those students was way up with the top schools.
        But for the official stats we had to count all our students. We had a whole lot of 3rd form (year 9) students who left, disappeared. They were replaced by new arrivals, many of whom did part of form 4 (year 10) but had poor attendance; then they in turn disappeared, and during the NCEA Level 1 year (5th form) we got a whole lot of new arrivals much like those who had left: poor attenders, had probably changed schools nearly once a year, had never got settled in, had probably wagged a lot, and we had to count these people whom we had not ‘educated’ in our NCEA League table results.

        DH is absolutely right, and under the circumstances I describe, schools can do very little about it, despite the silly mouthings of people like Hekia Parata.

  9. Olwyn 9

    He wants the government to introduce a work-for-the-dole type scheme where people would receive the minimum wage

    That sentence suggests to me that he may hope to offer people only the number of hours that would be covered by the dole if it were translated into minimum wage terms, so that they would be required to turn up for work for just a couple of days, with no increase in pay or freedom from bureaucratic harassment. I hope not, as such a disrespectful, mean-spirited way of going about things would do nothing to lift the spirits of his so-called nephews. If the work is worth doing , it is worth paying a genuine wage to see it done.

    • Olwyn 9.1

      I don’t know what went wrong there – the first version of this comment was not meant to go up. I must have accidentally hit the ‘submit’ button.

  10. Bill 10

    From the sounds of it (Ardern on Morning Report), current sanctions around work readiness will remain in place and be applied to any who refuse to enter into this employer subsidy rap.

    Also. Am I right in thinking no permanent positions are envisaged? That people will be coerced into fairly menial work on the premise it get’s them used to a job environment and then, after six months or whatever they’re back to square one – but with an attitude instilled?

    If this is anything less than 100% voluntary, then it ought to be opposed. And even if it is 100% voluntary, the whole notion of subsidising employers (yet again!) should be something the government is forced to justify.

    edit – and if they’re just throwing people into bullshit government related jobs to pull down unemployment stats they ought to be slammed and slammed hard.

  11. Michael 11

    The minimum wage is above the rate of Jobseeker Allowance, so anyone who participates in one of Jones’ schemes should be better off. However, any job must be “suitable” for the individuals and not all of Jones’ jobs wull be “suitable” for everyone. The government must pay close attention to this, and to monitoring employment conditions to prevent exploitation and abuse, when devising these schemes. In recent history, government have not bothered doing either of these things, with the result that employment schemes have a well-deserved reputation for abuses and exploitation of various types. Perhaps ensuring that every worker in a regional remployment scheme is covered by the Employment Relations Act (better still, its long-awaited successor) and able to lodge personal grievance claims from day one of their employment, is one way to rpotect vulnerable workers?

    • Ad 11.1

      +100
      I would also like to see 6 month minimum contracts for both employee and employer with a further 6 months rollover, so that the work is more reliable and less precarious.

    • Chris 11.2

      Ardern is adding to the confusion, too, when she talks about the possibility of sanctions. Sanctions aren’t being considered. Any decision to stop a benefit because the person’s refused a “suitable” job is just a simple application of the criteria to receive the dole. It’s not a sanction at all. If the person has a “good and sufficient reason” for refusing the job then that’s just one reason why the job may not be “suitable”. And any decision to stop the benefit can be appealed. All this talk of “sanctions” and “work for the dole” is very misleading. What Ardern’s currently considering is whether some form of “compulsion” should be adopted when introducing these changes. That’s what we need to concentrate on preventing.

  12. Paul Campbell 12

    And so the race to replace Winston when he retires begins – this ‘policy’ is aimed at the NZF rank and file

  13. Sabine 13

    If they take a job while they are one the dole would that not mean they ‘got themselves a job’ and are thus no longer on the dole?

    Atm this sounds like a huge give away to Industry and Businesses in the form of free labour while the tax payer gets to pay for the upkeep of these ‘workers for the dole/min wage’ who will most likely loose their jobs once the government stops the subsidy for them.

    Its not good enough to whinge about Shane Jones – who will be Shane Jones, it is Labour that needs to be clear and honest about what it will do in regards to Job creation, training options for young people and/or people in need of skills, and of course what to do with people that are of a certain age – close to retirement that also have issues finding jobs. Surely not all of these people are lazying it out on the generous benefits NZ is known for smoking drugs eating cheetos and hogging the couch.

  14. tc 14

    That didn’t take long for the leopard to show his spots.

    Labour needs to be clear and direct so that such behavior is seem as the political points scoring it is. Especially from the man who personifies being out for himself.

    There’s others inside labour they need to do this for also not just the Jones boy.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1

      That’s precisely the sort of attention the Comeback Child wants. The best response is to get on with the job and let the media chase the child around.

    • Tricledrown 14.2

      Shane Jones has a self sabotage problem.
      Always shooting himself in the foot which is usually in his mouth.
      He has no where near the Charisma of Peters .
      Unless he starts thinking before speaking this is NZ first’s last stand.

  15. Tanz 15

    It’s your beloved MMP system that sees him in the House, even when he can’t win an electorate seat and is part of a party that garnered a mere 7 per cent support.
    Why did he jump from Labour to NZ First? So funny when NZ First are trying to bring in a non Waka-Jumping Bill. As for work for the dole, this never achieves much. Ironic coming from Shane Jones though.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1

      Yawn. Cabinet will decide on Jones’ proposal.

      As for NZ1st voters, the only reason you want to disenfranchise them and deny their right to representation is that you’re a sore loser.

      • Tanz 15.1.1

        So looking forward to the next election, when NZ First won’t be there to gift the losing side power, lol!! 7 per cent get represented, whilst 44 per cent do not. Gee, that sounds like a dictatorship to me, and I do remember pre election, you were not so keen on Winston First. Talk about anything for power. Kudos to National for telling Winston to take his greed elsewhere.
        I think his opportunistic decision is coming back to haunt him already. Legacy a nightmare.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1.1.1

          I’m not that keen on NZ1st, which is why it was nice to see the latest RM poll, which showed the Greens and Labour have the numbers on their own.

          That doesn’t mean I want to disenfranchise them.

          Keep expressing your bitterness and denial. They’re such vote winners 😆

        • red-blooded 15.1.1.2

          Tanz, the 44% who voted Nat are represented – they’re just not represented by one of the parties that make up the government. And you would have been just fine with the 7% who voted NZF being represented in government if they’d sided with the Nats. Stop being a sore loser.

          BTW, do we need to point out that dictatorships aren’t elected in free and fair elections?

        • Andrea 15.1.1.3

          I knew it! I absolutely knew it!

          You’ve totally nailed it! Well done! “7 per cent get represented, whilst 44 per cent do not.”

          That poor 44%. National voters, right? All those National bums on seats in Parliament and they are simply not doing what the 44% voted them in to do: represent them.

          Useless shower. Wouldn’t you agree?

        • Tricledrown 15.1.1.4

          Tanz who will National form a coalition with.
          National are the authors of their own failure to form a govt.
          Bill English’s comments
          Releasing his private information.
          Double crossing Peters on many occasions.
          Crying in your Beersies.
          MMP voting blocks National stayed in power by gaming the system for 9 years .
          Standing aside for Dunne Seymour and the Maori party.
          MMP rules don’t shit on potential Coalition parties minions included.

  16. greywarshark 16

    I didn’t like his comment heard on Radionz this morning about not wanting people sitting around on the dole, he wanted them out planting trees.

    To me that is a general aspirational idea that one would make in conversation, not a statement coming from a Minister who has a good grasp of the whole situation, and how to improve the opportunities for employment for people in different categories of poverty – low paid not receiving enough hours and enough wages to allow them to support themselves/family, the under-employed, the precariat, the beneficiary trying to get work which is infrequent and so not able to go off the dole completely, the beneficiary working part-time and supporting other low-paid, no-paid workers who are out there doing things in the community, getting informal training etc., the people who have left school without any due care and attention paid to their needs and background and ensuring they were literate and numerate and had minimum requirements to gain work. Their needs require different sorts of training, goal setting, hope for definite positive outcomes if they can turn around etc.

    His comment was unfortunate. It indicated that he was going to be a fairy godmother and wave a magic wand and solve the problems of the unemployed easily, or instead, or perhaps also, be a wizard godfather and take a magical stick and beat the problems out of the beneficiaries with more push and punitive approaches than the building competence and individual aspirational approach.
    He needs to apply lots of carrot with stick at the back of the room.

    I know some here hate that carrot and stick term. However those who actually work with people left out in the rain for too long would know just how to look at this situation.

    Names come to mind from the past, people who have achieved much following their own path, and probably had funding withdrawn after a while by a government whose heart wasn’t in such capacity building for people as the past snotty-nosed lot haven’t had a heart for decades.

    Jim Moriarty
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/77283883/mahana-star-jim-moriarty-being-a-better-man
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/76022257/Theatre-explores-Wellingtons-violent-past
    https://www.sm.org.nz/2016/03/marist-education-jim-moriarty/
    http://www.newswire.co.nz/2010/03/te-rakau/

    Denis O’Reilly
    http://www.noted.co.nz/currently/profiles/despite-his-everlasting-shame-denis-oreilly-remains-loyal-to-black-power/
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11314381

    Kim Workman
    (about 2010 – couldn’t find date) https://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/a-matou-mohiotanga/criminal-justice/maori-designed-developed-and-delivered-initiatives/online/2

    That straighten up and fly right approach that I’ve heard from ex-Army NZ First Ron Mark, and also Shane Jones with a head-down go for the try approach of Shane Jones are simplistic and won’t fit all average guys who are strugglers, for the complexities of life outside narrow-focussed sports and the military.

    • Molly 16.1

      I attended a final performance of high-school students that had just completed a six-week live-in theatre project run by Jim Moriarty many years ago. Young people that had been identified as at risk, or vulnerable and were put forward by schools or community organisations.

      Powerful evening, and heartbreaking personal stories being portrayed. It may have led into the Te Rakau programme that you linked to, but at the time it was not funded. Reading his bio, gives some insight into how he managed to connect with those in his care.

      • greywarshark 16.1.1

        Molly
        Jim Moriarty seems to be inspirational and if he doesn’t get funded I think it practically proves the real lack of interest from the PTB in government and elsewhere. The whole impetus behind everything for some time has been to fund new things and allow older things to fall by the wayside, usually the theme is that they get inefficient over time (pot call kettle black).

        Really it is because government does not have a committed, warm feeling to all citizens and actively creates disruption that produces the precariat. That is pretty damning but seems pretty right to me, and more definite than Mr Key’s pretty legal.

        And I mention again Alan Duff’s Out of the Mist and the Steam (autobiographical). Such a clever capable but restless person determined to be experiential in life. When you can’t find out what you want from life and can put in, it takes time to sort out.
        http://www.bookcouncil.org.nz/writer/duff-alan/

  17. UncookedSelachimorpha 17

    “but there will be no more sitting on the couch.”

    The tired NAct meme of the good for nothing beneficiary, writ large.

    Very disappointing.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 17.1

      Managing to still feel disappointed by the things Shane Jones does is quite an achievement.

      • In Vino 17.1.1

        Thanks for that pat on the back. I have been expecting the worst from him for some time now.
        NZ First thought he would be OK for short-term gain because they were getting desperate?

    • James 17.2

      It’s not a nact meme – it’s being run by this New Jacinda run government.

  18. Nick 18

    Shane Jones sitting around in his hotel room from what I remember. Classic Bullshit artist.

  19. David Mac 19

    If it was about nudging the youngsters that are currently making a career of night owl Gran Turismo laps into the habit of setting a 6.30am alarm, pulling on work clothes and giving them a taste of tripling their current income I can see value. But I fear we’re not talking about many people here. Getting by today on a WINZ deal requires paddling like hell.

    That gamer needs a tune-up from his Mum, positive peer pressure intervention. Shane standing in the corner with his ‘Turn it off now’ hands on his hips is destined to enjoy patchy results.

    If we think we can get the best out of people by forcing them into something we’re dreaming.

    • Andrea 19.1

      I have the feeling that Mr Jones has been tuned up by the fed-up nanas and aunties there in Northland and Hawke’s Bay who have tried getting the mokos out of bed and even helping around the house.

      Haven’t heard anyone here refer to these long-suffering women. You know – the ones who actually deal with ‘the complexities of life outside of sport and the military.’

      To get those young blokes into the company of blokes who know how to work; how to be decent to mates and womenfolk; how to live a real culture instead of imported crap.

      Lots of assumptions about hours and unsuitable and stuff. If you’ve never done that work – how do you know? If you don’t talk with other workers and hear about posibilities – how do you know where to start looking?

      Many people have done time in shearing gangs, forestry gangs, freezing works, roading gangs. They’re not there now. They moved on – carrying some useful life skills. Yet you want to deny these young people that opportunity to join in.

      We’re not talking about the bulk of beneficiaries, and I’m sure you know that. We’re talking about youths and young adults in fairly deprived areas that aren’t magnets for great work opportunities. Them. So they get a chance they wouldn’t otherwise have.

      Those who will respond to kindly ways, even if shy and unsure, they’ll get a break. The ‘hard as’ brigade – the ones with ‘Big Ambitions’ to be gangstas – the despair of their nanas’ lives – I think that’s who Mr Jones is speaking about. A small group with the potential to poison a lot of lives if they can’t get round the corner and into the larger world. The ones who know the laws and their ‘rights’ but are extremely skimpy on their responsibilities to their communities, present and future partners and kids – and their nanas.

      However, ideaology rules, eh?

      • David Mac 19.1.1

        Thanks for taking the time to write that Andrea, you have made a great job of sharing your thoughts.

        Yes, the ‘Big ambitions to be gangsta’ have long stopped following Mum’s requests, their peers aren’t saying ‘Come and lay this drive with us bro, you’ll get 2 hundy.’

        It those sporting that attitude can be assisted towards leading better quality lives, it’s hard to be against that.

  20. David Mac 20

    It is our government’s job to make that Gamer think ‘Wow, that opportunity is a bit of me, where do I find the app?’

  21. David Mac 21

    The best way to make clambering over a hillside with a knapsack of seedlings and a corkscrew sexy is to attach attainable career paths.

    eg: A govt could claim: After 6 months, if gaining positive outcomes we intend ramping the project up. We will be asking many planters to step up to supervisory roles, they will be paid a living wage. After 2 years supervisors on up qualify for fully funded, bonded for X years industry related university study. The points on the path are not so important, they just need to have the potential to realistically meet our universal aspirations, pride, laughter, family, home ownership etc.

    • greywarshark 21.1

      Yes it’s not like teaching people to swim. There will always be the sea for them to carry on, if not able to find a clean river!

      But train up in a job or sill, what then. Are there pools of jobs waiting for you to dive in? Rhetorical question. So a definite plan for people who get through the introduction, next step – a choice of this or this (or something that the young person feels ready for that is approved) – and a choice of location so as to meet new people, widen networks. Not just the equivalent of throwing someone into the river and expecting them to swim.

      And changing ideas about work. Some Maori used to go and do seasonal work, work flat out, then go home and mooch around doing the regular things at home. That is a possibility for one style of work approach. We need seasonal workers, people who know their strengths and skills. Limit the drug testing also, traces are okay, it’s not being unfit on the day or the week that’s important.

      And get league tables of seasonal workers, if you get to the A team you might travel all over NZ, and have decent accommodation as befits your good status, not 14 to a room. In between you get the opportunity to train at a school gym also helping young students get fit, coach sport, keep fit yourself.

      A portfolio of jobs making up for a very interesting and involved man or woman with real purpose in life who would make anybody’s eyes light up – Here’s … Now we can see how it’s done – instead of looking at someone as if they are just a problem in society. Where’s the self-worth in that.

  22. Nic the NZer 22

    Shane Jones should stop couching this in beneficiary bashing terms and instead discuss the unavailing of a proper government funded Job Guarantee scheme (as hinted at by Wagstaff).

    Richard Wagstaff also makes a very important point about the idea that people on benefits are there because they are lazy. “What we do support is the creation of decent work options for people who are unemployed, so they no longer have to go and look for *work that doesn’t exist*.”

    While the minimum wage could certainly be raised it would be sensible to be honest about this being a goal. If a Job Guarantee springs up paying the living wage rather than the minimum wage then that will set the minimum wage at that level as well. It would be better to be honest about that so that both the Job Guarantee and Minimum wage can function as they are intended to.

    A proper Job Guarantee would offer a full weeks work at the minimum wage which would go a long way to reducing poverty. The alternative is typically much less than 40 hours a week at minimum wage which is considerably worse. It would probably also put an end to zero hour contracts, as its difficult to find staff when they have all the hours they need elsewhere.

  23. jcuknz 23

    Probably nothing to do with the subject which is written here by those used to an eight to five work pattern but I remember my delight in changing from those hours to 10-7pm, the change in work helped too for sure. With passionate interest in a subject which had my mind in a wirl every fornight after a club meeting I was usually late the next morning and signed on below the ‘red line’.
    So I wonder if our society needs to accommodate the young who stay up late and find it hard to start work an 8am start or earlier.*
    My other concern is the drug testing which rules out some, or used as an excuse not to be accepted. So long as they are reasonably capable of doing the work. Safety is a vastly over rated subject which often leads to people not using their noodle to stay safe.
    *There is a hilarious U-tube clip with a young woman going for a job who knows she cannot hack an 8am start which reminded me of my experiences recently [ sorry I didn’t keep a link to it .. it was on KB]
    I suggest that more flexibility in the workforce would be a good thing is getting the young into a work pattern or ethic.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 23.1

      5-6am starts mean you knock off (assuming 1/2hr lunchbreak and an eight hour day) between 1.30 and 2.30pm.

      Just saying 🙂

      • jcuknz 23.1.1

        And if you are not hogtied by an inflexible unionist then a 12 hr day results in three or four days off each week. Even in the public service at times I worked ten days on four days off to first build a family home and then later to go ski-ing in the winter.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 23.1.1.1

          hogtied by an inflexible unionist

          Your fantasies provide no foundation for sound public policy.

          “Come and see the violence inherent in the system” is a joke, not a manifesto. Please do your best to catch up.

          • jcuknz 23.1.1.1.1

            Pity you OAB put words in my mouth I didn’t write when we both seem to be advocating flexibility on the basis that if you enjoy your work it can be at any period of the day.

  24. savenz 24

    If they drain enough water from the aquifer and give our water away for nothing then their won’t be any water for the forests or cows, therefore the jobs won’t be there anyway for all the new brand of employer subsidies work for xx schemes.

    Again tell me, are we giving away our water and other resources without value!

    At the same time it has also become acceptable to give more taxpayer money to employer’s, as subsidies for jobs?

    crazy world. Look at the long term picture – not the silo’s.

    Where will any jobs be, if our government has already given away or destroyed the building block resources of this country – like water and why do we now have to pay corporations to employ people so they also get free labour paid for by the taxpayers?

    • jcuknz 24.1

      Paying firms to employ could be an answer to hold off automation and workers being put out to grass and cheaper than UBI.
      I am not an economist so just a thought …

      • One Anonymous Bloke 24.1.1

        If workers are put out to grass, who will buy all the stuff the robots make?

        Maybe a better idea would be for you to try and remember how to think.

  25. Tanz 25

    For once I agree with the PM. It would make people feel stigmatized, and there are not enough jobs to go around, that is a fact. What is Shane Jones thinking, and does Winston Peters back this also? Even National did not have such a scheme, because it would be wrong.
    English really is a decent guy, who wants the best for the country and its citizens.

  26. Tanz 26

    Do you have any evidence to the contrary? English really is a decent bloke, with depth, substance and high intelligence and works very hard also. I hope he stays on to fight the next election, he will only continue to rise in the polls and the electorate, on the night, did actually give him the mandate, even more so than they gave Key in 2014.
    Awesome. I have met him and he really is the real deal, and it’s nice to have a true family guy in politics, a farmer, an English lit grad, and a very honest, sensible pollie; under English NZ has become the Switzerland of the South Pacific. He should be Knighed.

  27. jcuknz 27

    Pity you rabbit on OAB without thinking as you attack others with your brain-dead concepts. It would be truely amusing if not so sad that anybody thinks and writes like you do.

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