Shearer: Jobs that work for you

115 comments on “Shearer: Jobs that work for you ”

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1. Jim Nald 1

   18 October 2012 at 1:25 pm

   Excellent stuff. This speech marks a change from others in that it is quite remarkable because, as one of the main reasons, the voice behind most of the words is distinct and it sounds like it is by a leader who has been thinking and who works at forming and presenting his thoughts well. If Shearer authored all that, good on him and there is some hope for the Labour Party come 2014. If he didn’t, let’s hope the oral delivery went well. The country cannot afford to stuff around for much longer for a real leader who governs for all of us.
2. Dr Terry 2

   18 October 2012 at 1:55 pm

   Yes, Jim, this is the first solid speech I have heard from Shearer (after waiting all too long!), though I note your qualification “If Shearer authored all that” (are there doubts?). It is surprisingly different from his usual patter.
   • seeker 2.1

     18 October 2012 at 4:36 pm

     I think that the ‘real’ Shearer does deliver “different from his usual patter”.
     I noticed a small sprig of hope on the Nation 29th September. Halfway through, after the usual wobbly start, Shearer appeared to shake off the probably ‘prescribed’ way, came into his own and in one pertinent word summarily dismissed the National Standards as “junk” when talking to a rather smug (because he had just published the ‘flawed and incomplete’ Nat Standards) John Hartevelt.
     http://www.3news.co.nz/David-Shearer-eyes-2014-victory/tabid/1348/articleID/270945/Default.aspx

     “Junk” summed these wretched standards up so perfectly and truthfully that I wondered why none of us had thought of describing them as this and nothing more before. I thought then that Shearer might eventually develop into a “smell the uranium on your breath” stunningly truthful line deliverer, as opposed to the unprincipled,indifferent,smart alecky type of one liner the pm delivers.

     Here’s hoping, and this speech gives me a second small sprig.
     • David H 2.1.1

       19 October 2012 at 9:59 am

       And the I don’t read Blogs was a bit over the top. Bloggers should be ignored at your peril Mr Shearer. Also the bit where he reckons he will lead Labour to victory in 2014 is a bit ambitious. I think he should be rolled in November, or Labour will really start to hemorrhage support. When people know they cant get him out before the election. So Dunnokeyo will win by proxy, as more and more will just not bother to vote at all. And then watch the rape and pillage of NZ really get going full on.
3. Colonial Viper 3

   18 October 2012 at 2:00 pm

   Pull those market levers, contract incentives and pricing signals and after a couple of years, we should see a few new jobs appear.
   • McFlock 3.1

     18 October 2012 at 2:08 pm

     JHC, CV, take the blinkers off.
        
     Did you miss the apprenticeship condition on govt contracts, reinforcement of CGT, and changing the RBA to include exports(dollarval) and  unemployment levels when determining the OCR?
        
     boohoo, he ain’t Cunliffe. But at least give credit where it’s due. 
     • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

       18 October 2012 at 3:44 pm

       Yes, I am being a bit harsh. But those initiatives will be really rolling into effect in year 5 and 6: just as Labour gets kicked out after 2 terms. The Tories will then promptly can half that list in year 1 term 1, and the other half in year 2.

       Of course I know one big reason why Labour has taken this very indirect approach – it protects them from Key’s “Show me the money” attack, saving Labour from having to raise any real tax revenue.
       • McFlock 3.1.1.1

         18 October 2012 at 4:58 pm

         Not really – they still need to cost the policies, and talk about the revenue and impact of a CGT, andof course Key (or his successor) will just make number up.
              
         A big weakness last election (I believe pointed out here – is there a tag “labour campaign sucks”? 🙂 ) was that they waited until a gnat’s fart before the election before trying to frame themselves as the working class’ last great hope. That message, even if they were fully committed to it, was neutered by the obvious question “so why didn’t you say this 2yrs ago, when I was being laid off?”  They also got pipped on most of their major policy initiatives by other parties like Greens or Mana.
            
         At least this speech suggests they’ve learned from that error. 
              
         Although one poll result does not a trend make, so one speech does not a fundamental improvement demonstrate…      
          
4. McFlock 4

   18 October 2012 at 2:04 pm

   Good speech.
   Let’s see: commitment to jobs with mention of inequality as issue, clear policy and perspective expressed >6weeks from the election, and some policy ideas that are innovative.
        
   A nice change of speed. 
5. higherstandard 5

   18 October 2012 at 2:12 pm

   Wiffle, waffle.
   • McFlock 5.1

     18 October 2012 at 2:15 pm

     HS is wearing corduroy trousers again. 
6. tarkwin 6

   18 October 2012 at 2:26 pm

   Why not give the job to the best person? Telling people who to employ is a ridiculous idea and shows how bereft of ideas Shearer realy is.
7. beatie 7

   18 October 2012 at 3:29 pm

   Still a deafening silence from Labour on whether they will reverse the welfare ‘reforms’.
   • Bill 7.1

     18 October 2012 at 3:54 pm

     Of course they won’t. They essentially support the fucking reforms.

     Read the first para again. Jobs = dignity and it’s through your job that your ambitions lie and it’s your job that makes you ‘matter’. Erm And that’s wrapped up in ‘choice’…somehow.

     So anyway, forget about the indignity of most jobs. Forget about any non-monetary ambition you might have. And forget about notions of self worth (the only acceptable measure of worth is that which is job related and definately not work related).

     Is it worth mentioning that jobs and the market economy are a blight on human existence and the planetary systems our very survival depends on? Nah. Growth will see us right. Or maybe we should just adopt a mantra inspired by a set of gates not a million miles distant and repeat “Jobs Will Set Us Free – Forever”
     • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1

       18 October 2012 at 6:28 pm

       +1
     • Nick 7.1.2

       18 October 2012 at 10:22 pm

       Please, tell me about the economic system you support where no one has to get a job and everyone can enjoy a high standard of living. I’m fascinated.
       • Bill 7.1.2.1

         19 October 2012 at 9:38 am

         How’s about you understand this economic system first? The one where work is largely dismissed and devalued because the only activity of ‘worth’ is the job;ie, activity where people are subjugated to the profit motive and toil, not so much to achieve a higher standard of living, but to avoid poverty.

         And maybe you’d also like to acknowledge that the current economic system stands in direct opposition to any sensible notion of democracy; ie, decision making is essentially determined on a $1 = 1 vote basis, that obviously hands power to those with the most $ and excludes the vast majority from participation in decisions that affect them.

         And maybe you’d like to sit down and consider the fact that this economic system’s principle product is poverty; that it mis-allocates resources (billions suffer malnutrition in a world that produces ample food) and grossly mis-prices resources too (no environmental, social or human factors taken into account and the economic factors skewed to favour already powerful actors)

         And maybe you’d like to have a think about the jobs people do and (putting aside the profit motive for a second) make a guesstimate of how many of them are utterly pointless and/or destructive to individuals, society and/or the environment.

         And when you’ve done all that and realised that the current economic system is an unmitigated disaster on all fronts – even by its own measures of efficienvy in resource use and allocation – maybe you’ll come back and tell me why we should persevere with it?
8. LBC 8

   18 October 2012 at 3:54 pm

   I hear a dog whistle…must be the puppy in me. I thought this was Winston Peters domain, obviously labour has decided it is anti-immigrant, anti-asian, anti foreign investment.
   • Colonial Viper 8.1

     18 October 2012 at 6:36 pm

     Pro-New Zealand.
9. gobsmacked 9

   18 October 2012 at 4:21 pm

   Most of the policies cited in Anthony’s post are from Labour’s 2011 manifesto. I voted for them, and generally support the policies, like CGT, R & D etc. That’s fine.

   The new ones are quite good headline grabbers (“one in a million”), so there will be some media coverage. As always, it’s the follow-up that counts. How will Shearer deal with that?

   For example, I don’t hear the “dog whistle” that LBC says, but of course opponents might want to construe it that way. It’s dealing with the spin that counts. Not just delivering a speech and saying “job done”.

   Take the last big speech, on education. Some things got traction, like feeding hungry kids in schools. Others have not, like reading recovery. So a pass mark at best. As stated before (by most of us!), Labour need to develop a narrative. Of course the best person to hammer that home is the Economic Development Spokesman. He should be in the media pushing this all the way. Will Shearer let him?

   So yes, the speech is fine. It’s just the start. Follow up, please. Focus, discipline, passion, communication, all the basics. If this is what Labour want to talk about, then talk about it. Don’t spend tomorrow talking about an MP’s Facebook fart instead.
   • One Tāne Huna 9.1

     18 October 2012 at 4:35 pm

     +1
   • Tom Gould 9.2

     18 October 2012 at 4:46 pm

     Agree, gobsmacked, that if the craven indolent chooks can take their eyes of their love object for a minute or two, and engage what is left of their sodden brains, we might get a bit of a public discussion up on some of the bigger issues that Shearer raises. What’s the chances? More voodoo economics and snake oil and money printing and borrow and hope, is my bet. Any takers?
10. Ad 10

    18 October 2012 at 4:28 pm

    Solid and specific. More please.
11. BLiP 11

    18 October 2012 at 5:05 pm

    .

    So, according to David Shearer humans are defined by employment and government is not fully accountable but, rather, simply a partner? What a twat.
    • Rogue Trooper 11.1

      18 October 2012 at 7:56 pm

      😉
12. Draco T Bastard 12

    18 October 2012 at 6:10 pm

    One is the path we have been walking for the last three decades.

    FIFY Dave

    I want to take New Zealand down a slightly different path. A pathway to a new economy that leads to about the same as we have now with rich people and lots of poor people.

    Fixed that one too.

    It’s a path that recognises you can’t fix poverty without creating jobs.

    And thus ignores reality. Poverty is a result of distribution, not jobs.

    We’ll expand KiwiSaver to ensure all New Zealanders have a retirement nest egg.

    Being part of the community is the nest egg.

    Really, all I’m seeing from that entire speech is just more of the same failed policies that got us here in the first place.

    Definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different result.

    This speech is full of insanity.
    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      18 October 2012 at 6:38 pm

      No, McFlock likes it, and I think, you know, it has some worthy merits to, ummm, consider passingly.
      • McFlock 12.1.1

        18 October 2012 at 7:07 pm

        You guys certainly demonstrate that just as one can roll a turd in glitter, one can also drop a marble in a bucket of shit.
             
        CGT, RBA expansion, kiwisaver expansion (yes, I’d prefer kiwisaver to be ditched in favour of higher-bracket income tax payments going to a govt fund, but it’s at least an acknowledgement of the problem), oh, and a boost of probably thousands of apprentices (based on multi-billion govt contracting expenditure under the one-in-a-million scheme) are only “slightly” different from the current Nactoid government?
                   
        In one speech he flagged policies that are probably equivalent to or even more left wing than 9 years of the Clark govt’s economic policies, and you reckon that’s pretty much the same as continuing under Dunnokeyo (love that moniker, btw)? Simply because the language around how we regard employment didn’t meet your expectations after your completely impartial (/sarc tag, just for the tories who are reading this, not you guys) deconstruction.
               
        I think what bites my balls about this is that you guys aren’t offering solutions or constructive criticism: it’s just the same mix of hyperbole and bile that the tories use. As well as the Socialist Workers who’d get together on campus basically as a support group for their own superiority rather than actually doing something about inequality and hardship. You know what: giving 100k people jobs actually will go a long way towards addressing inequality in this country. It’s not the only part of the solution, but everything Shearer mentioned will help.
              
        If their take on economic and employment policy is applied to social services, healthcare, education and entitlements then yeah, I think Labour stand to provide a better government than we’ve seen in the last few decades (not that it’s saying much). But If every other policy area is the same old “tighten our belts” shit, then the RBA & CGT changes will still make the next Lab govt light years ahead of the current fucktards.
             
        So arguing this speech is only “slightly” different to current NACT policy is just dropping a marble in a bucket of shit and then complaining about the smell.
           
         
        • Ad 12.1.1.1

          18 October 2012 at 7:29 pm

          +1
        • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.2

          18 October 2012 at 7:31 pm

          but it’s at least an acknowledgement of the problem), oh, and a boost of probably thousands of apprentices (based on multi-billion govt contracting expenditure under the one-in-a-million scheme)

          I was under the crazy impression that private enterprise would simply end up padding their invoices to take into account the cost of the required new apprentice.

          So basically Labour is going to subsidise the private sector apprenticeship position 100% anyways. You know, corporate welfare.

          We’re entering a period of sustained global economic decline McFlock. Labour’s policies are predicated on growth-as-usual. CGT is an example of this. So is forcing people to put more money into Kiwisaver. (To ape Robert Atack, where the fuck are you going to put all that money so you don’t lost most of it over the next 10 years?)

          Infuriating.

          You know what: giving 100k people jobs actually will go a long way towards addressing inequality in this country.

          All things being equal I would agree with you. But they’re not going to be.

          IMO the private sector is going to shed jobs at least as fast as these new entry level ones are created. Lose a labourer you’ve been paying, gain an apprentice – for FREE. Paid for by the tax payer. And god help us if NZers start coming back from Australia when SHTF over there.
          • Rogue Trooper 12.1.1.2.1

            18 October 2012 at 7:35 pm

            Give Me One Good Reason
            • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.2.1.1

              18 October 2012 at 7:42 pm

              Please clarify, for what?
              • Rogue Trooper …

                18 October 2012 at 8:02 pm

                Now that I have been led to understand my political position (and it’s critics, thanks muzza et al; ) is there any worth in further flanking of the battle-group?
                • Colonial Viper …

                  18 October 2012 at 8:41 pm

                  I reckon. Lots of work to be done still, from my standpoint. We haven’t brought the main guns to bear yet, nothing like it, and I still don’t have an exact firing solution. Yet.
          • McFlock 12.1.1.2.2

            18 October 2012 at 7:53 pm

            No, either it increases the business costs or it replaces labourers with apprentices, not both. And while there will be a little bit of either in different areas, H&S requirements and the value of skilled staff in productivity will be  more cost-effective in many roles than apprentices (you have to take time to train apprentices, show them what to do and get them certified), and contracting costs will still be held down by tendering processes (although personally for infrastructure I’d just go back to a ministry of Works that has the resources at hand).
            • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.2.2.1

              18 October 2012 at 8:42 pm

              (although personally for infrastructure I’d just go back to a ministry of Works that has the resources at hand).

              Any hints that a serious Ministry of Public Works is coming back, and I will be singing Shearer and Robertson’s praises until sunrise, mate.
        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.3

          18 October 2012 at 7:36 pm

          So arguing this speech is only “slightly” different to current NACT policy is just dropping a marble in a bucket of shit and then complaining about the smell.

          I wasn’t comparing it to this government but to the last three decades. We’re not seeing anything different from that. What we’re seeing from Labour is more policies that are designed to prop-up capitalism and not benefit society.
          • McFlock 12.1.1.3.1

            18 October 2012 at 7:42 pm

            Ok, you want non-capitalistic economic policies. Present them.
            • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.3.1.1

              18 October 2012 at 9:16 pm

              http://thestandard.org.nz/social-democratic-economy-part-2/
              http://thestandard.org.nz/not-more-of-the-same/
              http://thestandard.org.nz/universal-income-the-minimum-wage/

              You can probably find more in my comments as well.
              • McFlock …

                18 October 2012 at 9:30 pm

                actually, fair call on that – you have come up with some interesting ideas. 
                   
                But I don’t really see how Shearer’s jobs plan conflicts with your Reserve Bank tweaks. Fractional Reserve Banking is an issue, but I’m not sure it’s much more important than the amazing idea that inflation is not the only measure to be used in determining money supply. UMI as I’ve said I’m not so sure about (but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea – literally just that I haven’t made up my mind yet).
                         
                I certainly think that Shearer’s speech is a departure from National’s policies, even if in your opinion it might not go far enough.
                • Draco T Bastard …

                  18 October 2012 at 11:31 pm

                  Fractional Reserve Banking is an issue, but I’m not sure it’s much more important than the amazing idea that inflation is not the only measure to be used in determining money supply.

                  Actually, getting rid of Fractional Reserve Banking is the most important thing that needs doing. Leaving it in place leaves the power in the hand of the private corporations and that will always impoverish the many for the enrichment of the few.

                  I certainly think that Shearer’s speech is a departure from National’s policies, even if in your opinion it might not go far enough.

                  It is and no it doesn’t. We need real change, not tampering with the settings on the present system which doesn’t work.
              • Ad …

                18 October 2012 at 9:51 pm

                Not sure why I have missed these links, other than working.

                I appreciated your thoughts on housing. Check in Tuesday’s Herald a signal that the Waterfront CCO will merge with the Property CCO. With Housing Corporation long since a shell, Auckland still has a chance even in highly corporatised form to develop and redevelop itself for people-friendly urban form and higher home ownership. Could we have a better alignment post 2014 of mild left central and local government in Auckland and Christchurch, and would that be as optimum as one might ever expect in the course of one’s remaining life?

                Without Capital Gains Tax at least on housing the old rentier tyranny remains.

                What is your view on amalgamating Cullen Fund with ACC and EQCfunds to form a Temasek equivalent for patriotic firm-purchases?

                Would you.recommend a return to the Growth and Innovation Framework or modern equivalnt or do you really expect that the stady state economy will happen starting now?
                • Colonial Viper …

                  18 October 2012 at 10:01 pm

                  Temasek heh

                  Don’t you know that publicly owned enterprises can’t possibly cut it in the cut throat highly efficient corporate world 😀
                • Draco T Bastard …

                  18 October 2012 at 11:13 pm

                  What is your view on amalgamating Cullen Fund with ACC and EQCfunds to form a Temasek equivalent for patriotic firm-purchases?

                  Generally speaking, my view is that saving money is delusional and what we really should be doing is counting up the resources we have and determining what and how we can use what we have indefinitely.

                  Would you.recommend a return to the Growth and Innovation Framework or modern equivalnt or do you really expect that the stady state economy will happen starting now?

                  We can’t go to a steady state economy now but we do need to start planning to do so and put that plan into action. If we don’t then the living standards we have now will collapse.
        • BLiP 12.1.1.4

          18 October 2012 at 8:20 pm

          .

          . . . . . . I think what bites my balls about this is that you guys aren’t offering solutions or constructive criticism . . . . . .

          Universal Minimum Income

          . . . for starters. Then lets talk about The Spirit Level.

          . . . it’s just the same mix of hyperbole and bile that the tories use. As well as the Socialist Workers who’d get together on campus basically as a support group for their own superiority rather than actually doing something about inequality and hardship. You know what: giving 100k people jobs actually will go a long way towards addressing inequality in this country. It’s not the only part of the solution, but everything Shearer mentioned will help.

          Help? You mean “ease the pain” . . . right? I’d rather see the situation resolved. Permanently.
          • McFlock 12.1.1.4.1

            18 October 2012 at 8:29 pm

            Actually, I’m not sure where I sit on a UMI. The devil is very much in the details with it, especially given that people have very different requirements. Frankly, the tories would end up setting it at current benefit levels, which would be the worst of both worlds IMO. But on the flipside it does have its attractions.
                   
            But at least it’s a suggestion.
               
            Do any Labour members know if UMI has been discussed at policy meetings, and if so what lines the debates went along before last election?
            • BLiP 12.1.1.4.1.1

              18 October 2012 at 8:47 pm

              .

              Fuck the details, fuck the policy, fuck the regulations, and fuck the Tories too. Next Thursday, at 00.01 every single New Zealander will receive $500 from the government; and every Thursday after that – with annual upward adjustments. Not enough money to go around? Take it off the rich pricks and everyone who does business with them. Still don’t like it? Well, fuck off, then. Srsly.
              • Rusty Shackleford …

                18 October 2012 at 8:55 pm

                (pragmatically) I would probably be in favour of this if all other forms of welfare were abolished. The MSD, “free” healthcare and education, all subsidies. Basically all spending except for UMI.

                Of course, ideologically and logically speaking, it is a fuckn’ stupid idea.
                • BLiP …

                  18 October 2012 at 9:04 pm

                  .

                  (pragmatically) I would probably be in favour of this if all other forms of welfare were abolished. The MSD, “free” healthcare and education, all subsidies. Basically all spending except for UMI.

                  Yep. No more Accommodation Supplement, no more Special Benefit, no more Disability Allowance, no more Special Needs Grant, no more Recoverable Advance on Purchase of Essential Items . . . fuck the regulations, fuck the details, fuck the cost of social welfare . . . every Thursday: $500 for every New Zealander.

                  Of course, ideologically and logically speaking, it is a fuckn’ stupid idea.

                  Please clarify. I’m trying hard to see things from your perspective but I just can’t get my head that far up my arse.
                  • McFlock …

                    18 October 2012 at 9:16 pm

                    What about high needs kids, for example? Someone who needs at least one 24hr caregiver? And needs special equipment, or shoes of a particular type or size? $500/wk is enough for me, and then some – but for someone trying to care for one or two very dependant people, it’s not enough. Those are the people you let down when you say “fuck the details”. Those are the people you leave at the mercy of people like dunnokeyo when you say “fuck the tories”. 
                       
                    Shearer is a real-world politician who is probably trying to effect real-world change, rather than short term back-of-the-envelope wanking about ideal societies. Because even if Marx himself were elected in 2014, after 6 or 9 years it’ll be back to toryboys fucking us. Does a UMI make it easier or harder to fuck us? I think it makes it easier, because it’s only one thing they have to tweak to fuck workers, beneficiaries, healthy people and people in need.
                    • Draco T Bastard …

                      18 October 2012 at 9:26 pm

                      What about high needs kids, for example?

                      Universal = everyone, including the kids, gets it. If more is still needed then they can go down the MSD office and ask for more. They shouldn’t need to though as the amount paid in the UBI would be enough.

                      Does a UMI make it easier or harder to fuck us? I think it makes it easier, because it’s only one thing they have to tweak to fuck workers, beneficiaries, healthy people and people in need.

                      Embed it and why I say that I mean make it require a referendum with 75% or better to change it.
                    • BLiP …

                      18 October 2012 at 9:32 pm

                      .

                      Shearer is a sucker. He thinks its all about “management” and “partnerships” and “employment” . . . he’s just dribbling out platitudes to consumers. If that’s the “real world” he has never been hungry and without cash. His molly-coddled world-view is lost in abstract thinking which ignores suffering while it finalises abstract measurements. Is $500 not enough . . . okay, fair nuff: lets make it $1,000 a week. Now, tell me. How much more in tax would the 1% have to bear as a result . . . yep, you guessed it . . . 1%.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 9:35 pm

                      [edit: @DTB] Well, have a chat with BLiP, because they’d just closed MSD offices for that sort of thing.
                         
                      Embedding might work for a while, but that means 75% support for the policy to be introduced. So it’s not a Labour problem, it’s a cross-party issue.
                         
                      But then of course do you also embed the special needs stuff for disabilities etc? 
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 9:40 pm

                      @BLiP
                      okay, one person has special needs for ongoing care and equipment that runs to $3k/wk.
                      Does everyone get that under your ideal UMI?
                             
                      Basically, the problems of 4 million people cannot be solved with a wave of your hand going “tax the 1%”. It takes a bit more thought than that.
                          
                      THEN you tax the fuck out of the 0.05% 🙂
                             
                      But I reckon targeting some benefits beyond a universal minimum has its uses. At best I’d probably go for a combo between a UMI and targeting, plus general economic policy changes, of course.
                       
                    • BLiP …

                      18 October 2012 at 9:48 pm

                      .

                      @BLiP
                      okay, one person has special needs for ongoing care and equipment that runs to $3k/wk.
                      Does everyone get that under your ideal UMI?

                      That’s a health issue . . . now, where are you at? Is “health” a human right or just an opportunity for capital gain?
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      18 October 2012 at 9:52 pm

                      BLiP

                      Don’t forget Labour loves its complexity. The more complexity the more post grad policy analyst wonk types they can have hanging around to add additional layers of complexity.
                    • BLiP …

                      18 October 2012 at 10:01 pm

                      .

                      Don’t forget Labour loves its complexity. The more complexity the more post grad policy analyst wonk types they can have hanging around to add additional layers of complexity.

                      I blame that situation on Labour. They are the ones who opened up tertiary education to the corporates. Thanks Trevor – I’m lovin’ it.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 10:22 pm

                      Of course health is a human right. But you expressly said that disability supplements would no longer be available. So all you actually did was simply change the line item from “MSD” to “DHB”. Nice one.
                             
                      And the complaints about “complexity” sounds like something from Jon Stewart’s “bullshit mountain”. 
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      18 October 2012 at 10:43 pm

                      Hey McFlock, decomplexity is the future.

                      Increasing government deficits, tightening resource constraints and energy depletion guarantees it.

                      NZ gets away with it for now because we are doing relatively well.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 10:48 pm

                      “decomplexity is the future”
                               
                      God, and people complain about Shearer’s wiffle waffle.
                      If anything the problems will become more complex. 
                    • BLiP …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:04 pm

                      .

                      If anything the problems will become more complex.

                      That’s what they want you to believe.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:13 pm

                      Answers are simple in times of plenty: “need something? Have some more!”
                           
                      It’s in times of scarcity you need to balance need against need, e.g. Herceptin against more effective treatments for other conditions.         
                                 
                      In energy shortage times, which areas do you brownout? This is not something you have to consider if the energy supply is plentiful.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:21 pm

                      God, and people complain about Shearer’s wiffle waffle.
                      If anything the problems will become more complex.

                      LOL

                      You have it your way McFlock, you know best as always.
                  • BLiP …

                    18 October 2012 at 11:16 pm

                    .

                    It’s in times of scarcity you need to balance need against need, e.g. Herceptin against more effective treatments for other conditions.

                    There is no scarcity: its a matter of delivery. Neon advertising and aluminium for Japan or the elderly with heat for winter? You decide.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:23 pm

                      According to McFlock, you need to get a round table of ethics PhDs and some CompSci geeks to do some societal cost/benefit modelling, and then you’ll know the answer.

                      Herceptin lol do you have any idea the bill the public health system has had to pick up for the absolute damage that drug has done?
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:23 pm

                      The “or” denotes scarcity. It means we can’t have both. 
                      But of course the correct answer is “C: increase generating capacity so we CAN have both”.
                         
                      But then we have to think “how? Where? With what?” Those can be complex questions.
                    • BLiP …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:27 pm

                      .

                      But then we have to think “how? Where? With what?” Those can be complex questions.

                      The answers have been available for a hundred years. Longer, probably.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:33 pm

                      Oh ffs CV. 
                                   
                      You know what? The MSD got some gimp to organise web kiosks in their offices, and they were obviously unfettered by things like “knowledge”, “training” and “expertise”. Now imagine those morons in charge of healthcare or education in the country. Oh, wait, we fucking have that already: it’s called “Cabinet”.
                                 
                      That is the perfect example: you want people who aren’t fettered by education or experience in the area making all the decisions? I give you Parata, Tolley, Sgt Schultz and Dunnokeyo. 
                         
                      I’m not saying it should only qualified people  discussing it, just that your GWBush-style anti-intellectualism is as stupid as a dictatorship of academics. 
                    • Draco T Bastard …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:33 pm

                      According to McFlock, you need to get a round table of ethics PhDs and some CompSci geeks to do some societal cost/benefit modelling, and then you’ll know the answer.

                      We have to measure what we have and then decide, democratically, how we use it. Can’t get away from that because there really is scarcity.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:35 pm

                      ”
                      The answers have been available for a hundred years. Longer, probably.
                      ”

                      Really? Wow. Saves all that pesky business with the RMA…
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:40 pm

                      Anti-intellectualism? Nah just anti-academicism.

                      A vast difference, and not one that you have thought about much I suspect.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:46 pm

                      Funnily enough, I considered the difference between the two when I met my first BCom (Marketing).
                                    
                      But I think you’ve gone a wee bit too far the other way. 
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:52 pm

                      Really? Wow. Saves all that pesky business with the RMA…

                      Yeah you can do that simply by saying – use and consume less shit please. Flat screen TVs, Holdens, fertiliser, palm kernel, iPhones. But no not allowed to say anything like that.

                      Too radical.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:56 pm

                      greenies have been saying it for decades. Are we getting better, I wonder? Shearer’s fault, obviously…
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      18 October 2012 at 11:59 pm

                      Yeah Greenie talkfests have been going on since before Limits to Growth.
                    • BLiP …

                      19 October 2012 at 12:06 am

                      .

                      Greenie talkfests have been going on since before Morris Dancing.
13. Rogue Trooper 13

    18 October 2012 at 8:28 pm

    “Dignity” is Not attained through one’s ” Job” at all
    Ambition? read Ellul
    “Identity”? Politics
    “Dignity”? work out your own salvation
    “unexpected bills”? Get off the grid
    Those who have abandoned NZ for greener pastures will remain, or return in shame
    There will be no “high wage, highly-skilled future” for Aotearoa; American Dreaming
    Support the RB Act amendments a la Winston
    C.G.T
    F.T.T
    How much R@D credit ??
    Super? Whatever, that chicken has flown

    Patriotism?
    http://community.beliefnet.com/shawnf/blog/2010/05/25/interpreting_the_tao_te_ching:_verse_18_
    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      18 October 2012 at 9:28 pm

      There will be no “high wage, highly-skilled future” for Aotearoa;

      No, but high skills and a reasonable living standard will be available – as soon as we get the greedy off our backs.
14. Rusty Shackleford 14

    18 October 2012 at 8:42 pm

    “That means an independent Reserve Bank that’s given a wider mandate…”

    So, thestandard.org.nz is in favour of fractional reserve banking now? Confusing.
    • McFlock 14.1

      18 October 2012 at 8:58 pm

      [gets popcorn]
      • Colonial Viper 14.1.1

        18 October 2012 at 9:55 pm

        🙂 yeah I see what you see lol
        • McFlock 14.1.1.1

          18 October 2012 at 11:00 pm

          I wonder if a moderator will catch it before I get up tomorrow? 🙂

          [lprent: I’d have to do a search in the post – a feature that safari on an iPad lacks. And I’m not getting out of a warm bed at nearly midnight… In the morning if none of the early morning people get it first.
          • BLiP 14.1.1.1.1

            18 October 2012 at 11:51 pm

            .

            @lprent

            Let me see if I got this right: you’re in bed – with Lyn – and you’re on the internet? That’s sad, dude. ; )

            While I have your attention – I would like a couple of line-breaks between the comment title and the text of the comment – its not technical, just aesthetic – in a typographical manner. Many thanks.
            • lprent 14.1.1.1.1.1

              19 October 2012 at 12:12 am

              Yes…. I have lift my hand from doing required/demanded back massage to type this. Complaints arose.. Did I mention the lights are out?

              I will look at the swallowing of leading white space later. Neck massage awaits.
              • BLiP …

                19 October 2012 at 12:20 am

                .

                If the lights are out, a maestro would be working the inner thighs by now . . . the neck muscles massage comes aferwards. Surely. Also, pics or it didn’t happen.
                • Colonial Viper …

                  19 October 2012 at 12:22 am

                  Get a room!!! Oh ok you have…
                  • McFlock …

                    19 October 2012 at 12:49 am

                    turn off the webcam!
              • felix …

                19 October 2012 at 12:53 am

                “Yes…. I have lift my hand from doing required/demanded back massage to type this.”

                Got two hands, haven’t you? Carry on…
                • lprent …

                  19 October 2012 at 7:05 am

                  Need a third hand.. One hand to hold iPad, one to type on iPad… Darn, I am out of hands 😈

                  But seriously, got home at 2000 after work, cooked for Lyn who was off shopping for her cousins 21st (with the forthcoming filming in India she is working pretty damn hard as well), watched an hour of Lord Bryon on QuickFlix while eating and doing washing, went to bed and read the moderation. Bed is the only time to mod in the evenings and I have to multitask to do it.

                  Oh well looks like release candidate for first product is out of the door. Next is nearly there. Holiday in a few weeks…
          • McFlock 14.1.1.1.2

            18 October 2012 at 11:53 pm

            🙂
15. Blue 15

    18 October 2012 at 8:57 pm

    It’s good to know Phil Goff’s speechwriter still has a job.

    tough calls…prepared to make them…yadda yadda.

    Policies list is mostly recycled.

    Capital gains tax, expanding Kiwisaver and reinstating contributions to the Cullen Fund (if that is what he was saying) and making Government departments consider Kiwi workers when awarding contracts are all good.

    Jury’s out on the currency tinkering and R&D tax credit. I can see both of those being well-intentioned but completely useless.

    The one-in-a-million thing is a real stinker. Forcing businesses to create apprentice positions is daft. To have a good experience an apprentice needs an employer who wants them there and is prepared to put the time and effort into training them. Not an employer who had no choice and doesn’t want them.
16. QoT 16

    18 October 2012 at 9:32 pm

    You know, it all sounds like pretty good stuff, except, oh, what’s this?

    Jobs matter. And it’s not only about whether you’re earning enough to pay the bills. It’s because they say so much about you. Often, when you meet a person one of the first things you’ll find out about them is what they do for a crust. It’s more than just a weekly wage. It’s about recognising that what you choose to do with your life matters. It matters to you, your family and your community. It’s through your job that you’re able to realise your ambitions and give your kids a decent start in life. It’s a sense of identity and a source of dignity.

    Ah, yes. The eternal centrist love of the notion that only paid work can give you dignity or identity. Meanwhile, capitalism churns on, dependent on a pool of unemployed people who presumably are kept in some kind of making-no-contribution-to-their-community stasis until a Real Income comes along, and let’s pay no attention to the unpaid, unrecognised, and certainly worthy of some fucking recognition work of stay-at-home parents. Who are predominantly women. Coincidentally.

    I love the smell of job-worship in the mornings. Smells like patriarchy.
    • Rogue Trooper 16.1

      18 October 2012 at 9:36 pm

      and I enjoy your fragrance
      • Ad 16.1.1

        18 October 2012 at 10:29 pm

        Ewwww! Rogue that over-aestheticisation will get you in jail one day. Careful if QoT doesn’t devote an entire post to you in which your manifold Jungian entrails are dried into beef jerky.

        Meanwhile, back at the ranch, beyond the Spiral commune and a regular Potlatch, non-patriarchal economy in QoT terms looks like Kawerau, Westport, and Flaxmere. Not fun.
        • QoT 16.1.1.1

          18 October 2012 at 10:37 pm

          non-patriarchal economy in QoT terms looks like Kawerau, Westport, and Flaxmere. Not fun.

          Bullshit. All I said was that acting like paid work is the only valuable way to contribute to your community is horseshit, and it’s horseshit traditionally served up by patriarchy/capitalism because it *depends* on people’s unpaid labour going un-financially rewarded.

          Of course well-paid jobs are good (so are kittens. I look forward to Shearer’s next speech on Kittens For Everyone). But they’re not the be-all and end-all of human existence, and progressive/left politics is just screwing itself by buying into that kind of rightwing, money-is-the-only-morality thinking.
          • Ad 16.1.1.1.1

            18 October 2012 at 10:47 pm

            Well I would put it to you that those outside paid jobs are outsiders.
            • QoT 16.1.1.1.1.1

              18 October 2012 at 10:49 pm

              Like stay-at-home parents who are raising the next generation of Kiwis?
              • Ad …

                18 October 2012 at 10:51 pm

                Without the support of a wage earner, most likely. So, sadly, yeah.
                • Draco T Bastard …

                  18 October 2012 at 11:20 pm

                  That’s just it, they shouldn’t need “the support of a wage earner” as the community should be supporting them.
              • just saying …

                19 October 2012 at 9:30 am

                I’ve found it really interesting watching this community respond to Karol and the Queen of Thorns almost simultaneous promotions to blogger status. (Personally I was hoping for the trifecta with Adele…but maybe another day…).

                A few flounces.

                I think it will continue to be interesting for a while yet. Since I started coming to TS a couple of years ago, its culture has evolved with the gradually increasing numbers of strong, confident, and fearsomely intelligent, Left-wing women participating all its various conversations. It goes without saying that the same is true of the strengthening voices of all the other “othered” “identity” group members, which is a whole lot of other comments in themselves

                I can think of conversations from my early days here, which would be unthinkable now in anything like the form they took, the assumptions unchallenged, and the language that was used unthinkingly. And I know some here will think that a bad thing. But I reckon – Vive la difference 😀 And long may we keep learning

                We travel as equals or not at all. Joseph Arthur:

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSWir4yxDyU

                In the dark of grave yard chatter
                In the light of freedoms call
                In the heat of any matter
                We travel as equals or not at all
                Bloom disgust and class divide
                I saw it written on the wall
                The only way we can survive
                We travel as equals or not at all
                You can’t be in greater comfort
                As my pain prevents your fall
                The truth will come and tell us brother
                We travel as equals or not at all
                And when we get to where we’re going
                Past the divide past the stall
                Past the wind that’s always blowing
                Travel as equals or not at all
                You might have a greater income
                Or you might be dumb and dull
                But either way I won’t leave you
                Travel as equals or not at all
                So help me too in my slumber
                If I’m blind in madness hall
                If I’m deaf amongst the thunder
                Travel as equals or not at all
                Lift the way forget the ransom
                Free the chain and kick the ball
                Let our love take us higher
                Travel as equals or not at all
                And down the road
                And thru the sky
                And on the tracks
                Hear the gull
                Fly above us
                Without worry
                Travel as equals or not at all
                I hope your road takes you homeward
                And may you always outrun the law
                If I’m with you we will always
                Travel as equals or not at all
                I will catch you if your lost
                I will catch you if you fall
                Yes if I’m with you
                We will always
                Travel as equals or not at all
                Yes if I’m with you
                We will always
                Travel as equals or not at all.
        • Rogue Trooper 16.1.1.2

          18 October 2012 at 10:46 pm

          I am finishing up anyway’s, was just hanging around for you; ” It’s all over now baby blue”
          ya gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them; I got plenty of mahi to be going on with now.. inAdvertently, or contrariwise, thanks to you.
          Any last thoughts? Blogging has definitely been enlightening, but as I have indicated frequently, beware our habits do not form us, and it is time to break another habit
          (blogging is certainly multi-dimensional though) and fun? well, that’s coming to end for many day by day (nothing inappropriate about being an open book, the more windows you open, the more light you let in)

          P.S; await reply, otherwise, good bye every body, I have mat my match (in Little Match Girl terms)
          🙂
          (Stuff Politics)
          • Ad 16.1.1.2.1

            18 October 2012 at 10:49 pm

            You have a weird and old/atavistic voice which is playful for its spiritual age. Great fun. Night.
          • freedom 16.1.1.2.2

            19 October 2012 at 7:35 am

            stay in touch Rogue, creativity is perception’s friend

            view refuel return
            this world to be visited
            rest maps new pathways
        • lprent 16.1.1.3

          18 October 2012 at 11:54 pm

          I think that posts, comments, and notes dedicated to eviserations at a highly personal level are more my kind of thing than QoTs. She tends to rail more widely at the the essential stupidities of the world without too many of the nasty personal touches.

          With the wisdom of age and experience I can usually twist the knife in so the subjects remember the experience for the time required for jerking really old hard jerked beef. Disembowelment of others is something to savor and should not be wasted on the youth.

          * time to duck * 😈
    • karol 16.2

      19 October 2012 at 8:15 am

      I think the focus on jobs by opposition parties is important…. However,

      
      It’s because they say so much about you. Often, when you meet a person one of the first things you’ll find out about them is what they do for a crust.
      
       
      Yes that’s the bit that bothers me – that and what also is not said. This still seems to go back to some of Josie Pagani’s comments when she was under fire from the left blogosphere over the alleged fiddler on the roof.  She said that the Labour party had started as the party for workers, and needed to get back to that.
       
      What also is not said by Shearer in that speech, and in recent comments: has he ever apologised for the roof story smearing beneficiaries?  Or has he just stopped talking about it, while he continues to hold the same attitude toward beneficiaries?
       
      And is the Labour Party ever going to pledge to repeal all the anti-worker legislation?  or is it really about focus on supporting NZ business and industries?

       
      I love the smell of job-worship in the mornings. Smells like patriarchy.

      Ah, yes – an indication in that part of Shearer’s speech, of where capitalism and patriarchy meet.  This is where I have my main mis-givings about the current Labour leadership team.  They do seem to support both a  softer form of neoliberalism, and a paternalistic, “caring” form of patriarchy.
       
      There are some MPs within Labour caucus who seem to represent a less neoliberal and/or patriarchal attitude.  And MPs who, even if they are pretty neoloberal in outlook, are working on issues that could take the party in a different direction: Chris Hipkins on education, Phil Twyford on transport, Annette King on housing, Sue Moroney on PPL (was also very good on education when on the front bench), Clare Curran (on public broadcasting and public libraries).
       
17. xtasy 17

    18 October 2012 at 11:02 pm

    On the skills and entrepreneur category let in a 100 thousand each of the following:

    Danes, Dutch, Germans, Austrians, Swiss –

    and this country will experience an economic boom NEVER seen before!

    But that is of course too daring, as it will upset the whole social and local economic system and agenda, right?

    I also met numerous French so keen to come and work and live here.

    Why the damned hell do we have a pre occupation with restaurant operators offering Asian foods, maybe a bit of Turkish “cuisine”, Thai tilers, Indonesian and Philipino farm workers, Filipina caregivers in homes for the elderly, nurses and doctors to replace leaving Kiwis all over the place, entrepreneurs (admittedly a BIG German amongst them), paying their way into the country, but otherwise not doing much for the benefit of NZ at all?

    This to me is DUMB immigration, DUMB economics, PRIMITIVE social and other policies. Indeed I met some many promising migrants from all sorts of countries, and once they realised what goes on here, most said, they could not be bothered coming to live and work here!

    NZ can do more and better, there is an ability to assist refugees, also allow some lower skilled migrants, but the “entrepreneurs” and “investors” that are atttracted so far, do hardly do much good for NZ.

    But the challenge is NOT wanted, as smart people as migrants are NOT really wanted, they will challenge the local elite and stake holders. It is the agenda to keep this country “simple”, “primitive” and lowly educated and informed, as that makes it soooo easy for the existing elite to keep running this place in a convenient, dumbing down manner, which is really what they want and love.

    No hope really, it is all really the best scenario for migration – OUTWARD!
    • Draco T Bastard 17.1

      18 October 2012 at 11:26 pm

      On the skills and entrepreneur category let in a 100 thousand each of the following:
      Danes, Dutch, Germans, Austrians, Swiss –

      Been there, done that. It’s why most of our wineries have European names.

      and this country will experience an economic boom NEVER seen before!

      Nope because a) Been there, done that and b) Growth has finished.

      But the challenge is NOT wanted, as smart people as migrants are NOT really wanted, they will challenge the local elite and stake holders.

      Actually, the people already here would do that as well – if they had access to the needed resources. The rich/elites/greedy do as much as they can to prevent that access.
      • xtasy 17.1.1

        18 October 2012 at 11:38 pm

        Most people i had contact with, being migrants from Europe and even other places, they were not that entrepreneurial or high shot people, who once came here, but just offered their skills, and goood work, they have almost ALL LEFT for good.

        I had so many say: It is a total waste of time to live and work in NZ! That is the truth, and so many said to me, why do you waste your bloody time and talent in this backward, DUMB country!?
        • BLiP 17.1.1.1

          18 October 2012 at 11:47 pm

          Most people, not that entrepreneurial or high shot people, who once came here, just to offer their skills, and goood work, they have almost ALL LEFT for good. I had so many say: It is a total waste of time to live and work in NZ! That is the truth, and so many said to me, why do you waste your bloody time and talent in this backward, DUMB country!?

          Yeah, I get that too. I tell them: “te tangata, te tangata, te tangata”. Some get it; most go home.
      • xtasy 17.1.2

        18 October 2012 at 11:42 pm

        It is your fucked up system here, for a start, throw out this damned British Crown crap, get rid of this old rotten system, get real, draw up a constitution, which will include Maori rights, I am all for it, but get this sorted, nobody wants to come into a totally divided, manipulated and corrupted country as NZ has become, run by a corrupt NatACT elite.
      • Colonial Viper 17.1.3

        18 October 2012 at 11:45 pm

        Constitutional issues have very very little to do with the friction and resistance your mates faced.

        obody wants to come into a totally divided, manipulated and corrupted country as NZ has become, run by a corrupt NatACT elite.

        You have a better place in mind? Do tell…
        • xtasy 17.1.3.1

          18 October 2012 at 11:52 pm

          PARADISE early death, have you heard of the “near death experiences”? That is why Jihadis do what they do. It is a quick path to “salvation” and peace. But that is a bit too heavy, right? Because we cling to physical lives and supposed “enjoyments”. But once those supposed “enjoyments’ do not, never or no more exist, an “alternative” may be the best way out, right?!

          Good night! Enjoy your trip through the veil. You may find some thing out much more worthwhile than bothering to hang about in this place.
          • Colonial Viper 17.1.3.1.1

            18 October 2012 at 11:56 pm

            All in good time my friend. But not yet. Not yet.
18. xtasy 18

    19 October 2012 at 12:31 am

    This works for me tonight, boa noite!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYhF56heGxw&feature=endscreen&NR=1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=rwDLu_u2GHI&feature=endscreen

    Another nuance do musica do brasil.

    Maybe back, after time travel, now in South America, for the rest of il noice.

    Shake up your country and docile lot, sedatives do not help, I feel.

    Get on moving.

    Revolution of sorts, just the mind will do!

Links to post

1. Backwards to the future? « The Standard: posted on 20 October 2012 at 8:34 am

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