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Show me the money!

Written By: - Date published: 5:59 pm, January 24th, 2012 - 138 comments
Categories: class war - Tags: , ,

A couple of weeks ago Irish asked why the right are so worried about how much working people earn.

Today POAL and their creepy lackies David Farrar and Cameron Slater have continued their knicker-sniffing.

I reckon that if we’re gonna go rooting around in people’s personal business then David should tell us how many taxpayer dollars come out of National’s parliamentary services budget and go into his company’s bank account each year and Slater should tell us how many under-the-table dollars he got doing debt-collection while those of us with jobs paid him the sickness benefit.

C’mon lads. You wanna talk dollars. Let’s talk dollars.

138 comments on “Show me the money!”

  1. shorts 1

    well it sure doesn’t look like the POAL workers will be earning that in the future, if indeed their members did last year if these situation continues as it has been

  2. chris73 2

    This could have been averted by the munz and its allies not telling lies. They could have confirmed the numbers were correct and then gone onto explain why (overtime, shift work etc etc)

    Instead the munz and its supporters look like liars and how are people supposed to believe what comes out of the mouths of the munz now?

    • Lanthanide 2.1

      Alternatively, if POAL actually reported only monetary figures and didn’t include non-monetary things such as leave, we’d have numbers that were really apples to apples comparisons.

      Eg, full time people on the minimum wage would say their annual income was $27,040, but when you include 4 weeks annual leave and 5 days sick leave you get a figure of $29,640, or 9.6% more than the before-tax figure that they actually earn in dollars.

    • The numbers are not correct.  They do not reflect take home pay.  From what I can make out they include possibly redundancy payments and conceivably ACC.  POAL should detail what they do include and we can then have a proper debate.

      At this stage all I can say is that we are comparing apples with oranges.  This does not prevent some from jumping up and frothing at the mouth though.

      How do you RWNJs feel about the chief executive earning $750k a year?

      Please enlighten us. 

      • chris73 2.2.1

        The numbers are not correct. They do not reflect take home pay. From what I can make out they include possibly redundancy payments and conceivably ACC. POAL should detail what they do include and we can then have a proper debate.
        – Accept it and move on, in the battle for the minds of the general population POAL won and MUNZ lost, at least try to learn form this latest defeat

        At this stage all I can say is that we are comparing apples with oranges. This does not prevent some from jumping up and frothing at the mouth though.
        – More of a case of “told you so”

        How do you RWNJs feel about the chief executive earning $750k a year?
        – Irrelavent to this issue but good job of trying to muddy the waters

        Please enlighten us.
        – It would take more peyote then I could get my hands on

        • mickysavage 2.2.1.1

          Yep Chris it may be that you are right and I am wrong.  The RWNJs have won the propaganda war and the left have lost it not because of what is the reality but you guys shouted louder and had better PR advice.

          How about we debate the reality instead?  You get the figures and we will analyze them properly.  Even better get POAL to say what it has paid out in wages.  Then we can discuss what is actually happening.

          Or do you think that winning is more important than the truth? 

          • chris73 2.2.1.1.1

            What is truth? I have absolutely no doubt that both sides believe they’re telling the truth.

            However the report shows that every full time and part time employee made more than $56 thou for the last year but $56 thou a year is what the MUNZ is claiming workers get paid

            If you disagree with the above then please explain why

            • mickysavage 2.2.1.1.1.1

              Ask POAL.  Get them to disclose the figure paid out in wages.  Then lets have an argument about it.  

              This is so simple.  In my business I can tell you instantly how much I am paying in wages.  I can go through the accounts and add all sorts of other crap into the figures and then recalculate but it would be dishonest for me to then say that my workers are being paid a certain amount.

              But it does let RWNJs jump up and down and say the workers are being paid a certain amount when the truth is they are being paid less.

              • chris73

                I’m guessing you’re familar with the term balance of probability so on one hand we have E&Y confirming what POAL have said all along and on the other we have some lefties saying they’re wrong but have no proof to back it up

                You know what, I along with most of NZ will go with the POAL on this one unless MUNZ can offer something (anything) to back up what they say

                • Nah Chris73 POAL has figures for Africa for what they pay in wages. They have released this inflated figure and have spun it as if it is wages.  And people like you jump up and down and say it is true AND say it is somehow evil.

                  Why don’t you do this about Gibson’s salary.  Go ahead, justify it for us all, give it a go. 

                  • chris73

                    “on the other we have some lefties saying they’re wrong but have no proof to back it up”

                    So thats a no for any sort of proof then

                    • Colonial Viper

                      What’s proof to you anyway?

                      You just want to see the side which smashes the union win, and want to see the CEO and the Board get big bonuses for hitting their targets when they do so.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      CEO and board bonuses for bankrupting workers and displacing families.

                      Welcome to the RWNJ crony capitalist model.

                  • BD

                    How do we know the CEO is on $750k a year? The arguments coming through are that the figures for the workers are over-inflated and can’t be trusted yet the CEO’s is somehow correct.

                    The problem with all this salary arguing is that regardless of what more they earn it is still far more than the meat workers, factory workers, hospitality workers etc… who get by on a pittance compared to these guys. They don’t strike like these guys because one day off sets them so far back in financial terms they make sure when their union is working on their behalf getting them the best deal as quick as possible. The port workers seem to be able to sustain a number of days off when the economy is poor and households are struggling. I guarantee that there are people out there wishing they had a six day working week so they could get an extra days pay.

                    Don’t know why there is so much emphasis on these guys when there are far worthier cases out there that require the backing and effort.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I reckon the PoT CEO is on far more than the PoT CEO who is on $720K pa.

                      Time to take him and his board down a notch. Lead by example fellas, please cut your own pay and conditions, or better yet, fire yourselves and bring in contractors at a 40% saving.

                      The port workers seem to be able to sustain a number of days off when the economy is poor

                      The board of directors seem to be able to sustain $160K pa for 30 hours work a month even as they lose all the port’s major clients.

                      Go figure.

                      Bonuses and share options for us; austerity and unpaid over time for you.

                    • felix

                      “The problem with all this salary arguing is that regardless of what more they earn it is still far more than the meat workers, factory workers, hospitality workers etc… who get by on a pittance compared to these guys.”

                      Damn right BD, all those other workers are seriously underpaid. Pity this govt is only interested in putting downward pressure on wages, eh?

                      “They don’t strike like these guys because one day off sets them so far back in financial terms”

                      I agree, that absolutely sucks. No-one should be so reliant on their employer that they can’t afford to do say anything about it.

                • we have E&Y confirming what POAL have said all along

                  Yes, I’ve read the document and it makes clear that POAL have been deceptively using the notion of ‘total remuneration’ as a headline figure, knowing full well that most New Zealanders don’t treat their own salary and wage ‘headline figure’ in that way.

                  Thank goodness we have auditors to make this discursive deception clear.

                  Try asking someone – anyone – how much they earn. Only a particularly obsessive accountant would include the free biccies at morning tea in the calculation.

                  And medical insurance? isn’t that a subsidy to insurance companies? Younger people, in particular, do not need it (probabilistically) – I assume that the money for the premiums isn’t simply put into the wharfies’ accounts on the assumption that they’ll buy medical insurance with it. (ACC, of course, covers accidents at work.)

                  What E&Y have confirmed is that POAL have used something that is much closer to ‘cost to the company’ of their employees as a substitute for ’employee earnings’ – but then presented it as employee earnings.

                  I also see that E&Y implicitly confirm that POAL should have accepted the union offer that met all their requirements for ‘flexibility’. After all, they assert that lack of flexibility is ‘financially unsustainable’.

                  POAL should feel quite reprimanded by this report.

                  They won’t, of course. 

            • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.1.1.2

              The truth isn’t based upon what people believe but the cold, hard facts. You RWNJs seem to forget that – probably because the facts never substantiate your beliefs.

            • Mike 2.2.1.1.1.3

              Because your annual salary or weekly wage or hourly rate is the figure used to state what your pay is. When you ask what does a stevedore get paid the answer is 56k ($27 per hour) plus overtime. Overtime is never included in a stated pay rate for the simple reason you don’t know in advance how much overtime you will be working. The report can’t show part time workers getting paid more than 56k because if they clock more than 30 hours a week (which they have to in order to get paid over 56k) then the law says they are full time employees.

        • felix 2.2.1.2

          “Accept it and move on, in the battle for the minds of the general population POAL won and MUNZ lost, at least try to learn form this latest defeat”

          So you’re not interested in knowing who’s telling the truth.

          Only the “spin war” matters to you, right chris?

          I’ll be sure to read all your comments with that in mind from now on.

          • chris73 2.2.1.2.1

            My personal thoughts on this?

            Both sides are telling lies but MUNZ are telling more lies than the POAL

            • mickysavage 2.2.1.2.1.1

              OK detail them.  Line by line.

              • IrishBill

                Funny thing is the PR is not being won. I’ve seen polling that shows that public support has swung behind the workers on this dispute. My instinct is that the longer it goes the worse the public opinion of the port management will get. And this dispute is going to drag on.

                • Good stuff IB.  I tried to donate to the strike fund today but the MU said they were fine for now.  Interesting response, I wonder how many corporates would turn down a donation.

                  • felix

                    “I wonder how many corporates would turn down a donation.”

                    Well now it’s you who’s comparing apples with bunches of cnuts.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Its a strategic mistake for them to turn down donations even if they don’t need the money right now.

                    The reason being that allowing people to donate, whether it be $1 or $1000, allows people from across NZ a tangible way of showing solidarity with the watersiders, building a wider and more loyal movement than you could otherwise.

                • chris73

                  My instinct says otherwise but we’ll see whos right in the end I guess

                  • felix

                    “Instinct”? That’s not how you spell “My borderline retarded friend Cameron”.

                    mickey, just above, in response to one of your non-committal sideways accusations, asked you to list the lies you claim are being told by the workers.

                    Still no answer I see. Guess that was just “instinct” too.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Instinct is a poor replacement for fact.

      • Thomas 2.2.2

        How do you RWNJs feel about the chief executive earning $750k a year?

        If the CEO went on strike whining about pay and conditions, then the right would give him just as much vitriol as the striking overpaid wharfies are getting. He isn’t, so we ain’t.

        • Colonial Viper 2.2.2.1

          Then you have given us a clear answer.

          At $750K each, the wharfies will agree to no more whining and no more strikes.

          Make it so.

          • Hami Shearlie 2.2.2.1.1

            I like that idea . And preferably, have Mr Gibson on the wharfies salary ,then tell him you will cut $20,000 and tell him to smile and suck it up!!! “Make it so”! – Love it – Very Jean-Luc Picard!!

  3. Zetetic 3

    This is a post about how Farrar and Slater’s rorts, chris. Do you think they should disclose their finances if they want to talk about others? Or are you just here to try to talk about something else.

    • No individual’s income has been disclosed Zetetic, but you seem keen to apply a different standard to Farrar and Slater; funny that…

  4. beachbum 4

    The disclosure of the POAL wage information was because it relates to the POAL strike issue. That is dealing in facts.

    I am not sure why any reporter or blogger (Including the writer of this article) need to disclose their own earnings. That does not validate the issue regarding the POAL dispute.

    Does it matter what my occupation or earnings are? Or do we all have to disclose such information to validate our personal opinons.

    As for the rorts…show the evidence….are we not all innocent until proven guilty? Or is it throw enough mud and surely some will stick.

    I couldnt care less what various commentators get paid. I am more interested in the facts and reasoning behind the opinions.

  5. Lanthanide 5

    I’d still like to see the take-home pay figures, before tax and not including sick leave, annual leave or medical insurance.

    When the stevedoors say they earn $56,700 they are of course talking about the monetary sum they earn (presumably before tax). Including in all of these extra benefits as pat of total remuneration and comparing it to the figure given by the stevedoor is misleading.

    • chris73 5.1

      What more can be done?

      Cactus Kate said $91 thou, POAL PR said $91 thou, Ernst and Young said $91 thou

      $91 thou was the average pay for a full time wharfie last year not $56 as claimed by others

      You can choose to accept it or not but it doesn’t change the fact (and its a fact as verified by a neutral party) that its $91 thou

      • felix 5.1.1

        You either haven’t understood what Lanth just wrote or you’re lying.

        As micky said, let’s see the wage bill and we’ll know who’s lying.

      • felix 5.1.2

        “it doesn’t change the fact (and its a fact as verified by a neutral party) that its $91 thou”

        I note that you’re very careful to use the word “it” and not define what “it” is.

        I guess that’s because you know you can’t say “before-tax take-home pay”.

    • beachbum 5.2

      The article mentioned about $3k (I think) for Med and Super. Super is 7% so the figure sounds low or is it just for Med??? There are still some ambiguities and yes the $91k may well convert to $56k in terms of what hits the bank account during the year….

      Anyway, as all has been said before, the issue is about terms and conditions rather than the pay.

      Note that there was reference to the Union challenging the appointment of casuals to permanent fixed term contracts that was decided back in March 2010. This (in my opinion) was a earlier attempt or move towards casualisation.

      POT stevedore companies also have “unproductive time” which although not entirely palatable is more a reflection on the ability of management to “manage labour” etc. So there is room to move for POAL but they have taken a draconian move and to be fair, this has gone on for months and months.

      It is very easy to find faould on both sides and until there are some people involved who are not “emotionally involved” then it is a big cock up. Who knows what the drivers are for the CEO….maybe his bonus depends on a change…

    • Vicky32 5.3

      Including in all of these extra benefits as pat of total remuneration and comparing it to the figure given by the stevedoor is misleading

      I’ve asked before – no one had an answer… why are we using the American term ‘stevedore’ instead of nZ terms? (Aside from anything else, stevedore is obviously much harder to spell… 🙂
       

  6. Colonial Viper 6

    If we understood how much executive management were earning that would place in clear context whose pay and conditions the organisation intends sacrificing.

    • beachbum 6.1

      I think that is more relevant than what various commentators are paid. I believe there is room for rational think from both sides. throwing more union people and POAL execs at the issue will only add fuel to the fire.

      Maybe the Govt do have to get involved but I am not sure if that is part of the Employment Relations Act. You would think that given the pesonalities on the board and the Council ownership that it should not be a central govt issue

  7. randal 7

    so what if it is $91 thou.
    this is supposed to be a high wage economy.

    • DJL 7.1

      I agree, so what if it is 91 large. It is what they bartered for in good faith over the years. (if indeed the figure 91 is correct). Now some upshots with very large pay packets what them to take less. My worry is if POAL management break MUNZ then who’s next. Tony Gibsons’… coming soon to a job near you.

    • chris73 7.2

      Because the munz and its supporters screamed blue murder it wasn’t that much, that workers would have to work 24/7 to get that sort of money

      Munz would have known how much was paid but instead chose to lie about it which means that anything they (or Gary says) say is not credible

      So when they say POAL acted in bad faith who do we believe, not Gary because he/they have already lied

      Thats what

      • DJL 7.2.1

        You gonna just keep repeating yourself ? Just who is paying you?

        • chris73 7.2.1.1

          I have to keep repeating myself because some of you still don’t quite get it. If you dispute whats been said then dip into your pockets and hire some other accountancy group to go over the figures

          I do it out of love not money

          • felix 7.2.1.1.1

            So why won’t POAL release the wage figures, chris?

            If they’ve got nothing to hide, and you and Slater haven’t been bullshitting your fat arses off, then why not?

            • chris73 7.2.1.1.1.1

              I’d guess for the same reason MUNZ won’t release thier figures either

              • felix

                Since when does MUNZ pay the wages of port workers, moron?

                • chris73

                  So MUNZ has no idea of what their workers get paid or couldn’t get hold of the figures if needed, yeah right cum knuckle try again

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Only one entity has full and complete documentation re: pay = the employer.

                    The other way out of this is for workers to agree to their PAYE details to be released.

                    That will sort out a large measure of the bullshit circulating.

      • Molly 7.2.2

        I heard Tony Gibson tell Paul Henry on Radio Live (and you can listen to the audio on radio lives website) that the average income for the Wharfies is $91k “and on top of that” they get super + 5 weeks leave + sick days etc, now the company is saying that the figure includes the cost to the company of these benefits, so whos the liar?

      • KJT 7.2.3

        MUNZ was telling the truth. Large amounts of overtime are needed to get that sort of money.
        If POAL were that concerned about individual overtime they could have refrained from making 60 full time staff off Bledisloe redundant., Then they may have reduced ship delays and kept more of their customers.

  8. randal 8

    its either whaleshit or the sausage roll stuffer.

  9. tsmithfield 9

    If the argument spouted here, that non-cash payments such as medical insurance etc don’t count as income, then company cars for executives don’t count as income either. The key thing is whether it is taxable or not. If it is taxable, then it is income. Simple.

    • What about ACC?  You see TS we do not know what they have included in their figures.  Let POAL release the full figures then we can have a proper debate.

      In any event what is wrong with a well paid job? 

      • chris73 9.1.1

        Hmm why not MUNZ release some figures then let a neutral party go over those figures, like POAL did

        I mean if MUNZ arn’t lying of course…

      • tsmithfield 9.1.2

        The company is required to pay ACC on wages. That shouldn’t count as income. However, there is the earners levy which comes out of employees wages. That should be counted as income, just as it probably is in average income calculations the government produces.

        Nothing wrong with a well paid job at all. If the workers are able to negotiate those sort of rates, then good on them. However, the employer has to have a sustainable business. So, the employer is also entitled to contract out work if it is in its best interests. This then means that workers have to frame their negotiations within that context, and come up with a deal that is better for the employer than contracting the work out.

        Also, I echo some of the comments above. Some of the claims by the union members have been shown to be false, regardless of whether some taxable non-cash items have been included as income, as they should be.

        Also, I don’t think watersiders are the best example of worker exploitation you could find. It is not like they are climbing up chimneys for a few cents an hour or anything.

        • mickysavage 9.1.2.1

          POAL’s figures in its account do not say it pays $52m in wages, it says it pays $52m for “employee benefits expense, including restructuring costs and termination benefits.” 

          It can release the line items showing how this figure is made up.

          Until then this is all spin.

          It is not as if we are dealing with something indeterminate. 

        • Descendant Of Smith 9.1.2.2

          The employer has a sustainable business – it makes a good profit.

          The bullshit around return on capital is nonsense.

          So land values go up the return drops, land values go down the return improves.
          Only bean counters really consider this aspect.

          Sure you might get a better return on the land by not having a port and developing it – but fuck me – property developers are the last people I’d trust with a cent of my money.

          More people have lost money through them than ever have through the port.

          And I don’t want even more trucks on the road.

        • KJT 9.1.2.3

          POAL is sustainable. Provided you do not use continue the fake competition with Tauranga and use as the cost of capital, the port valued as housing estates.

      • The Baron 9.1.3

        Still irrelevant anyway, Greg – its still a well paid job. workers are going to have these wages increased by 10% under the port offer. If they then book 40 hours a week using the new flexible roster, then all other things being equal, they’ll have about $100,000 average instead. And they’ll know their hours a month in advance. Happy days!

        So, ah, what’s the problem? If these guys do a forty hour week they’ll be paid at a level most unskilled workers can only dream of – and 10% better than the same time last year.

        If instead they choose to continue sitting on their chuff for over a third of a week, well hour by hour they’re still better off. Again, happy days.

        • mickysavage 9.1.3.1

          workers are going to have these wages increased by 10% under the port offer

          Nope, their hours and entitlements were going to be cut.

          If these guys do a forty hour week they’ll be paid at a level most unskilled workers can only dream of

          They are not unskilled.  It is dangerous highly skilled work. 

          Why do you resist the idea of workers getting a reasonable wage? 

          • IrishBill 9.1.3.1.1

            I like the way the right are arguing that workers’ pay should be reduced. Pretty much shows them for what they are.

          • The Baron 9.1.3.1.2

            Never seen anything like that apart from scaremongering from the now proven liars from the MUNZ. Whereas POA have been proven right time and time again. So forgive me if I take their straight faced claim of 10% pay increase for a new flexible roster as meaning just that.

            In other words, if you wanna make that money for 40 hours work a week, go work 40 hours – not sit on your bum for over a third of those per week and expect money just to fall into your hands. If they did that, and they have a newly flexible rostering system that would allow them to do that, then there would be a pay increase, not any fall at all.

            But instead we are on the pickets and all losing our jobs while the work goes to Tauranga. Yet another “victory” for the unions while the rest of Auckland suffers – all for the few, not the many, might I add. God you guys are all so out of touch, and innumerate, that it isn’t funny.

            • Colonial Viper 9.1.3.1.2.1

              So forgive me if I take their straight faced claim of 10% pay increase for a new flexible roster as meaning just that.

              No I won’t. If you do it just means that you are a gullible naive. POAL is not doing this to increase the money going to their workforce, silly billy, they are doing it to cut the budget they spend on their workforce. Otherwise, whats the point?

              In other words, if you wanna make that money for 40 hours work a week, go work 40 hours – not sit on your bum for over a third of those per week and expect money just to fall into your hands.

              Hey thats what the POAL board members do for $160K pa. So why not the workers?

              But instead we are on the pickets and all losing our jobs while the work goes to Tauranga.

              Gibson is working for his old employers Maersk to drive the prices down to the bottom of the barrel.

              If that makes good business sense to you then you must be also working for Maersk because they are the only ones who benefit from POAL and POT cutting each others throats (it also demonstrates why POAL CEO and Board must be fired now, for their incompetent strategic management of the competitive landscape).

              God you guys are all so out of touch, and innumerate, that it isn’t funny.

              Hey keep advocating for the bosses, your job is being contracted out to India next – unless you drop your effective income and conditions by 45%.

              • The Baron

                What is the point? I know you guys wanna see this as another front in the great class war, but it is far simpler than that. The Port wants these guys to work for the 40 hours that they are paying them for – not for only 2/3 of that while the rest is used up by “workers” who are at home on the couch.

                If these port workers actually WORK the entire week, no pay cuts for anyone – in fact, 10% better off under the ports offer. Plus they get to book their shifts a month in advance, so they can plan their forty hours around the rest of their lives.

                The only way your scenario of a pay cut works out is if your port mates continue to take up over 1/3 of their week on smoko breaks. Sorry, I can’t get upset about that – where I work, I get paid according to, um, how many hours I spend on the job.

                Weird concept I know, but that really does seem to be foreign to you, CV. Mind you, you’re one of the 1% aren’t you? Do you even have a job?

                • Colonial Viper

                  Class war 🙂

                  Yes it is 😛

                  Declared by POAL, but finished by MUNZ 😀

                  Mind you, you’re one of the 1% aren’t you? Do you even have a job?

                  Keeping my missus and her in-laws happy with me is tough but rewarding work – I kid you not.

              • BD

                End of the day it is the workers that are going to suffer because of MUNZ actions now, some are going to wake up soon with no job. Doesn’t matter how many times managements pay packets are debated the reality is they wont come down, ever.

          • Olwyn 9.1.3.1.3

            I have seen a few posts suggesting that stevedoring is “unskilled,” and it seems to me that there are a few right wingers who reduce the concept of “skill” to abilities like financial manipulation, networking and propaganda writing, with a bit of commercial law and the like thrown in. When a PR person makes a mistake it might cause embarrassment; when a wharfie makes a mistake it can cause death. Right wingers, before trying to degrade the skills of others, you should take a look at the actual skills that you and your cronies actually possess. Even Plato noted that tradesmen had a real form of knowledge, in comparison with the sophists who were limited to manipulating opinion.

            • The Baron 9.1.3.1.3.1

              All in your head, Olwyn – I haven’t seen anyone anywhere naming that narrow list of jobs that you clearly don’t understand or appreciate as skills.

              These port workers are trained on site to drive specialised trucks and secure cargo safely to vessels. I bet that 99/100 unskilled workers could do the same thing with the benefit of all that free on site training. I’m not undervaling that – nor am I saying it isn’t dangerous. But neither of those things change the fact that most workers with those levels of skills aren’t paid anywhere near the six figures that most of these guys are on; and they don’t get away with spending over a third of their week watching Sky either.

              Don’t let that stop you from your ill informed tirade against jobs you don’t understand though – I’m just not sure how its relevant.

              • Colonial Viper

                99/100 unskilled workers could do a better job than POAL’s board. Replace them first, with minimum wage contract labour.

          • The Baron 9.1.3.1.4

            Oh so new roster that allows you to book a month in advance and a 10% increase in hourly rates = a pay cut and less hours in PRESLANDIA, the weirdest country of them all.

            All the port is looking for is workers who will actually WORK 40 hours per week, rather than what’s lucky to be 2/3 of that. If these guys wanna be on the same wicket – no, actually 10% better than that – then all they need do is book 40 hours in the roster. And they get at least a month’s notice of that to plan their lives around too.

            But instead they’re downing tools so they can continue to spend more than one hour in every three with their feet up; and now they’re all going to lose their jobs for their inflexibility. Plenty of people will still be lining up for some of the best paid unskilled jobs in the country, and the rest of Auckland can go back to having OUR port functioning properly, rather than being used to prop up the unsustainable lifestyles of 200 racist, sexist dinosaurs down on the wharf.

            Sounds to me like these guys looked the gift horse in the mouth a few to many times. Gift horse is dead now boys – good luck finding another job that lets you blow over a third of the working week in bed.

            • Colonial Viper 9.1.3.1.4.1

              Wowsers…someone else telling you what a good deal this is for you…

              But what if you don’t trust that asshole as far as you can throw them?

              Hey turf Gibson out, I know plenty of people who would do his job better for half pay, say just $375,000 pa

            • Molly 9.1.3.1.4.2

              “But instead they’re downing tools so they can continue to spend more than one hour in every three with their feet up; and now they’re all going to lose their jobs for their inflexibility. Plenty of people will still be lining up for some of the best paid unskilled jobs in the country, and the rest of Auckland can go back to having OUR port functioning properly, rather than being used to prop up the unsustainable lifestyles of 200 racist, sexist dinosaurs down on the wharf. ”

              Maybe you’re overly familiar with the traits of racist sexist dinosaurs, but I wouldn’t have thought that wanting some structure and stability around your work hours and some work life balance makes you sexist or racist. You’ve said the workers spend one hour in three with their feet up, in other posts you said they spend a third of the day in bed, you’ve also said they spend a third of the day watching Sky TV, and in another you said they spend that time on the couch. Either theres a really good staff room at the port with beds, couches, foot stools and televisions provided by management or you dont actually know what you’re talking about.

  10. Ross 10

    This table shows how many workers at POAL are paid $100K or more. Some 184 workers get paid more than $100K, including 43 wharfies. However, I have no idea if the figures for wharfies have been calculated in the same way as the pay of other workers.

    http://www.poal.co.nz/news_media/publications/2011POAL_Remuneration.pdf

  11. Descendant Of Smith 11

    No the key thing would be whether it is taxable for the employee would it not.

    The employer contribution to a superannuation scheme for instance is an employer expense and doesn’t form part of a workers taxable income to IRD.

    The employer ACC levy for each employee based on the injury risk and the safety record of the employer is also not employee income, while the ACC levy the employee pays would be considered so.

    There a significant difference in the employer cost and the employee remuneration.

    There’s no way I would ever suggest to my staff that those employer costs form part of their wage and salary packets. They roll on the floor laughing.

    I understand perfectly that those are my employer costs for employing staff.

    It’s not difficult distinguishing between the two.

  12. Mark 12

    As I see it, it is irrelevant what they, or Management, or Whale, or Farrar, or any of us are earning, –
    if you lie or support or regurgitate lies you have to swallow the medicine when busted. If Gibson’s salary is relevant, then so is Parsloe’s, and we could get into the debate about who provides more value, who works more hours, who pays more tax etc, etc.
    Stevedoring is not an easy job, but it’s not rocket science either, and there are plenty of working class families down the chain who will be damaged by this dispute, no doubt MUNZ will be contributing to the family incomes of those who want to work devanning containers, driving trucks, stacking shelves etc but find themselves out of work while $91k for 23 hours is exploitation. Am I missing something here?

    • IrishBill 12.1

      there are plenty of working class families down the chain who will be damaged by this dispute

      Firstly, I don’t think so.

      And secondly, the dispute was planned in advance and driven by port management so I don’t see how you can possibly blame the union for this.

      Also, how much do you think stevadores should get paid? More than you do? Less than you do? How about you put a figure on it.

      • Mark 12.1.1

        there are plenty of working class families down the chain who will be damaged by this dispute

        Firstly, I don’t think so. why not, if goods can’t come off the wharves?

        And secondly, the dispute was planned in advance and driven by port management (or Union Management in cahoots with the Left, upset at being thrashed by rational Kiwis in an election and giving a death rattle) so I don’t see how you can possibly blame the union for this.

        Also, how much do you think stevadores should get paid? More than you do? Less than you do? How about you put a figure on it.. They get paid around what I get, for far less work, with far less responsibility if they fuck it up, with far less personal investment in training… but I guess I would want all I could get if I had to blow Pasloe & Co to have a job.
        BTW, how many women or minorities are allowed down at the great workers Utopia?

        • IrishBill 12.1.1.1

          They get paid around what I get, for far less work, with far less responsibility if they fuck it up, with far less personal investment in training…

          Looks like you need to join a union.

        • Molly 12.1.1.2

          The POA Human Resources staff do the hiring of stevedores, why dont you ask them?

        • McFlock 12.1.1.3

          They get paid around what I get, for far less work, with far less responsibility if they fuck it up, with far less personal investment in training… but I guess I would want all I could get if I had to blow Pasloe & Co to have a job.
            
          Tell me you dosomething other than sit behind a desk, where the only cable failure you’d have to worry about is your dodgy LAN connector.

          • Mark 12.1.1.3.1

            I have nothing to hide, so here are my credentials to comment on this subject.
            I am a Tradesman Fitter, trained very many years ago by shock horror a farmers co-operative, dirty work, started on 42% of an adult wage..and no, I didn’t really enjoy being up at 5:30 through my teenage years but it’s what you do.
            Then, roughnecking on rigs, mining, truck driving, bar work, whatever it took to earn & pay tax, modifying my lifestyle to fit within often shitty earnings. I then begged, borrowed enough to by a cheap van and a welder, and worked 7 days a week to build a business, employing, training, mentoring , having my balls on the line (fucking exploitative capitalist pig no doubt) Sold the business, some white collar (ooh including HR, what a cunt I am) I ran some teams fixing a big bridge, and happily sacked the lazy union brainwashed fuckers, while promoting and encouraging those prepared to man up and do what they were well paid to do. I built a factory, walked the wet steel, got the fucking job done, again sacked the lazy cunts. Now I do spend a bit more of my time behind a desk, working for some guys who have their balls on the line, and if I don’t show, or perform, I will be sacked tomorrow, as should anyone be. I would happily lash boxes & drive a straddle carrier at POAL, and shift work.. no drama. Dangerous at the wharf.. a little, no more than shitloads of jobs and probably statistically less so than driving to work. Oh yeah, I did spend 2 months on the dole once, I recycle, I cost ACC nothing, I raise kids, up at 5 now as I have to travel 3 hrs per day to earn. Nothing special, no hero, no special treatment.. just what you do to contribute.
            Please oh mighty McFlock, am I allowed to speak Sir..
            And who the fuck are you to question me. 

        • just saying 12.1.1.4

          You’re full of shit Mark.
          I’ve copied below a comment from a previous thread in which you were purportedly sharing your working class knowldege to inform the beneficiaries you were bashing, how they could live cheaply. You received numerous informed replies to your uninformed beneficiary bashing but you ignored all relevant comments and questions and stuck with the bullshit.

          You claimed that $20 of seeds and the sweat of your brow could produce $1000 of veges, which proved that you were lying about being a gardener. Even if you used your kitchen cutlery to dig up your entire section, and that section was self-fertile, and located in a part of the country with the most garden-friendly climate, you would not yield $1000 of veges from just hard work and nothing more.

          You revealed that a clothes line could dry clothes. Not even the most unreconstructed working class man could imagine that this would be news to any poor person.

          And now you claim to be concerned about the effect the POAL dispute will have on “working class families down the line” because you’re all about caring about the working class. Quite the working class hero aren’t you Mark? – Bull. Shit.

          22 January 2012 at 9:16 pm

          When mince is on special I buy mince – with a little bit of effort and some cheap ingredients i make awesome bolognaise, delicious burgers, nasty nachos.. all good cheap tasty meals, and I teach my daughters how to do it too.
          When steak is on special I buy steak.. amazing how delicious, nutritious, cheap and fun a casserole is.
          $20 worth of seeds and a little bit of sweat can grow $1000 worth of vegies, easy, fun and great to do with young uns.
          My power bills – lower than ever. I spent $12 on some line and pegs and hang it out – also means I don’t get so much mould on the ceiling, which isn’t that hard to clean off and keep under control with a bit of effort to open windows, air the house etc.
          Sometimes when the wallet is tight I spend a whole $5 on fresh mussels and make a wicked feed.
          All this and 50hrs a week as a contractor, still plenty of time to get free library books to read to my girls, go to free council or govt sponsored activities, playgrounds etc.
          I manage to pay my tax, child support etc, and choose not to blow my money on fines, KFC, gadgets, SKY, pokies, horses etc.
          These options are available to anyone, someone please tell me again why the State (ie you & me) should be stealing from the sensible and productive to subsidise those that can but won’t get their shit together, instead of focusing on those that are genuinely needy.

          • Mark 12.1.1.4.1

            “Just saying”
            “you’re full of shit Mark”.. why, because I apply a bit of truth to the blog?
            I am no working class hero and don’t profess to be, however I do care about anyone who is prepared to put some effort and make their lives better, and I have studied enough Sociology & Marxism to see the Left for what it is and how it wants to achieve it’s ends – most readers will.
            This is not to say I don’t recognize and acknowledge past and current injustices and structural inequalities our society, however the whole class war and social paranoia has been discredited totally IMHO. To consign people to the scrapheap and convince them they are downtrodden in order to buy their votes is pretty moral, isn’t it? I prefer to encourage, train, direct and improve, and it is amazing how well the workers will respond, be more positive, happier, be better parents, and contribute more of what they can to society.. hence my lifestyle tips.
            And yes, $1000 may be a bit much, but not far away.. what value to put on doing something with your kids tho, teaching about effort & reward, about the environment, nature etc…?
            And why the fuck if everyone including your downtrodden working poor or beneficiaries know about a washing line are they getting Winz grants for dryers, and can’t afford the power, and get mouldy houses? Maybe because you want them to be like that, and you whatever your situation is, can feel superior?
            You are more full of shit than me I suspect.

            • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.4.1.1

              Its ironic, Mark “Born to Rule” accusing the Left of keeping the poor poor.

              When it is the Right Wing ownership class he supports who organises the exporting of good jobs, the importing of cheap labour, the degradation of working terms and conditions, engineering job insecurity and downward pressure on wages, etc.

              What dude, do you think we were born yesterday? Class war it is, a class war the capitalists started, but a class war that labour will finish.

              • Mark

                CV, that was a bit disappointing, after you have shown some insight and good arguments on here.
                I wasn’t born to rule anything except my own circumstances, like most right of centre good citizens I am also  concerned with the plight of others less fortunate, and know that the way forward is to step up.
                Fuck being consumed by bitterness and envy, go do some charity work or something for those you oppress with your misguided philosophy and indoctrinated beliefs. Or at least put up your own argument not some out of date, irrelevant and misguided mantra.
                  

            • Vicky32 12.1.1.4.1.2

              And why the fuck if everyone including your downtrodden working poor or beneficiaries know about a washing line are they getting Winz grants for dryers, and can’t afford the power, and get mouldy houses? Maybe because you want them to be like that, and you whatever your situation is, can feel superior?

              Did you dream that story up, or hear it from Leighton Smith? I am a beneficary, and I’ve never used a clothes drier in my life – none of us do in this street of State houses. If WINZ won’t even give grants for wheelchairs and glasses (and they don’t) why would they give grants for clothes driers? It’s laughable. 😀 Aside from anything else, Mr Self-made Moron, you are as unaware as Leighton the loony that grants all have to be paid back..
               

  13. Dylan 13

    The only principle that right-wingers have is selfishness. Dress up what they say they believe in as you will, that’s what it always comes down to.

    Everyone is more or less selfish, of course, but they have that as their central and only principle (whether they know it or not).

    It explains everything they say or do.

    Simples.

  14. randal 14

    thats right dylan.
    the rightwingers want to oppress people and the people want to be free from oppression.
    fundamental disjunction here.
    and the flunkeys for the rightwingers want to frame it into how much individuals get paid and then dump on the officials of the union for telling them to mind their own fucking business.
    the watersiders do the work they are entilted to a fair pay.
    say one fifth of what manager gibson gets paid would make it $175,000.
    that seems fair to me.

  15. Georgecom 15

    Farrar and his right wing mates have no need to go digging around for watersiders pay rates. That isn’t the issue and can seemingly only serve the purpose of throwing dirt around to further other agendas.

    The central point here is that MUNZ have made an offer to POA which goes a ‘long way’ to meeting the employers wishes. Given his close political connections with the National Party, Farrar will know this.

    In any normal employment dispute the current phase is where the employer puts away any stupid threat of redundancies, stops making any negative public statements (and asks its supporters to do the same) and engages in some constructive bargaining with the union to reach a settlement both sides can live with. Again, Farrar will know this.

    So, continuing to fixate on matters such as pay or other actions which seek to discredit the watersiders points to either (1) someone easily distracted by side issues or (2) another hidden agenda being rolled out.

  16. vto 16

    General strike.

    On the grand scale.

    Including all payments to banks.

    What are they gonna do? It’s a free market after all. Play their game straight back at them.

    • vto 16.1

      .

      United, the people stand

      • vto 16.1.1

        .

        Divided, the people fall.

        .

        • vto 16.1.1.1

          Just like money.

          The more that is accumulated in one spot the more power it has. Same same. Think people think.

        • muzza 16.1.1.2

          Notice how much of a distraction has been created, and again the infighting, all looking in the wrong directions, most anyway.

          Much more at stake here, and I hope some of the fuck wits who have put their words and spite into the back of the workers, one day have their life thrown into the public eye, where lies, spin, opinions, agendas can all be aimed firmly at them.

          The wages are not even the issue here, they have been used to cause the shit storm and the diversion!

          • Jenny 16.1.1.2.1

            “Notice how much of a distraction has been created, and again the infighting, all looking in the wrong directions, most anyway.

            muzza

            The real issue is not wages at all.

            The issue is the company’s plan to outsource all the work and deunionise the worksite.

            As Matt McCarten explains:

            ‘Greedy wharfies’ tale hides ambitions for port

            Intriguing also was the wharfies’ response to Gibson’s claims about their pay. They offered not take any increase. In fact, they’d cut their annual wage by $10,000 as well as extend their working week from 26 hours a week to 40 for no extra pay.

            what hasn’t been spelled out is that Gibson from the start demanded fulltime employees become on-call casuals and agree to daily shifts between two and 12 hours.

            When the union negotiators pointed out that half of the workforce were part-timers and casuals so he already had enough flexibility, Gibson responded by saying this was his “best and final offer”. He followed up by offering existing casual employees permanent jobs paid at 10 per cent more than the union rate, provided they resigned from the union.

  17. Molly 17

    “If instead they choose to continue sitting on their chuff for over a third of a week, well hour by hour they’re still better off. Again, happy days” ….

    I think you’ll find that the wharfies are not responsible for creating the roster or for the hiring of new staff as some people have implied. If they are then $27.00 an hour is a very low wage for all the duties they are expected to carry out, and the HR department is unnecessary.

    maybe do a bit more research on the topic instead of relying solely on POA media spin releases:

    . http://www.munz.org.nz/2012/01/24/ports-of-auckland-management-fact-sheet-short-on-facts/

    • burt 17.1

      HR department is unnecessary.

      Right, so the company should be a good employer, use only ‘company workers’ who are on the company payroll, training program registers, health and safety training and reminder lists BUT the HR department is unnecessary. Lefties… F-in hell get with bloody reality, you want a first world workforce of permanent workers but let me guess, the HR department sitting on their asses consuming company profits is money that could have be paid to workers….

  18. Lanthanide 18

    I’ll just throw this in here as another (very simple) angle on these “total remuneration” figures that POAL is putting out and have been audited by E&Y (who will simply have done exactly the same calculations as POAL, not validated whether these are the correct/relevant calculations to be doing – only an ignoramus would be impressed by this).

    The POAL figures are essentially what it *costs* them to hire a stevedore for a year. It is not what the stevedore *receives* on their pay slip or in their bank account.

    Actually if the stevedores get payslips (probably legally required?), it could be instructive for a few of these year-end pay slips showing total salary to be scanned and published on the internet (with names redacted), if they were so willing. It would make the situation much clearer.

  19. randal 19

    so who gets the stevedoring contract if the port is privatised?

  20. Bored 20

    How stupendously dull this column is, the usual RWNJ bigots justifying who gets what with no regard to the social and economic impacts, the lefties focusing on how much….who fekkin cares.

    The real game being played out is elsewhere, its all about how the Parnell business crowd get their hearts desire…the replacement of the Auckland Council with a privatisation friendly group of lackeys. Meanwhile Brown and Mr Anonymous (Leader of the Oppostion) sit quietly….what a fekkin fiasco.

    Dont ever forget, the new right bastards want to feudalise you and your assets.

  21. DH 21

    I’d question this figure here which appears to be deliberately misleading;

    “The $91,000 includes a range of allowances, benefits and shift payments with the average number of hours paid per week averaging 43.9.”

    It was stated earlier by POAL that the average hours per week increases to 49 when leave entitlements are added. What that should tell people is the 43hrs is arrived at by dividing total working hours by 52, which is wrong. Add leave to the total hours worked, divide by 52 again and you get the 49hrs. (Leave at 6hrs extra per day works out to 312 hrs or 39x days, in line with their quoted 5weeks holiday, sick leave etc.)

    For a truthful average they should be dividing total working hours by total worked weeks, not by the full 52weeks which includes non-worked holidays. That then works out to about 51hr average working weeks which helps to explain the high levels of pay. Holidays are only paid for 8hr days so even the 49hrs is false because the non-overtime leave days bring the average down.

    It’s troubling that the figures are being misrepresented in such a fashion. Adopting this flawed methodology would enable any employer to attack the wages of any full time workers.

    • Lanthanide 21.1

      Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.

      Using a 51 hour week comes out to $34/hour for their $91k figure, which seems reasonable.

      • DH 21.1.1

        Average hourly rate is misleading because holidays are not work. The 51hr weeks are only for the weeks they actually work so the average pay there would be worked out from 40hrs standard plus 11hrs overtime each working week. A quick calculation from the POAL figures says they average 484hrs overtime each year. Holidays are paid as 8hr days or 40hr weeks so the average pay on holidays is (probably) the base rate of $27hr.

        I’d have thought if POAL wanted to get the wages bill down they’d hire more part timers & get the overtime down (assuming overtime costs more)

        • Colonial Viper 21.1.1.1

          I’d have thought if POAL wanted to get the wages bill down they’d hire more part timers & get the overtime down (assuming overtime costs more)

          But that would create more union members, not less.

          • DH 21.1.1.1.1

            Maybe, but why should that bother them. Looking at the E&Y numbers the overtime rate for stevedore lashers is $22.48 per hr which I assume is on top of the base rate of $27.26hr. Using that figure 232 full time stevedores each working 484hrs overtime per year adds up to $2.5million in overtime payments that can be saved by employing more staff.

            It’s a shame our media are so useless & lazy. How hard is it for a competent journalist to dig into the figures, ask some proper questions and start exposing the misrepresentations from both sides.

            • Lanthanide 21.1.1.1.1.1

              No, the overtime lashing is what they’re paid if they do lashing, not on top of their base.

              “Lashing”, whatever it is, appears to be the bottom rank-and-file lowest skill job available, and is mainly performed by casuals and part timers. I recall reading something about full timers being able to do up to 3 additional overtime shifts per week with first priority choice over lashing or not.

              • DH

                Ok, I’d assumed it a penal rate from the vague E&Y description where it’s mentioned twice;

                “Stevedoring rate for lashing, general duties and standard straddle driving $27.26 per hour”

                “Overtime lashing by stevedores $22.48 per hour”

                Odd they get paid less for overtime.

                POAL and the union have been very evasive on the subject of overtime, both have something to hide there I’d think. I’ve assumed there are penal rates for overtime because the quoted $91k and 43/49hrs doesn’t add up without it, the numbers fall well short. Anyone know, do they get time & a half for OT or what?

  22. Funny how it is OK to play the politics of envy when it’s the National party doing it or the Mud stream media. Kim Dotcom is filthy rich so there must be something wrong with him and those damn warfies are making more than the average so they should pull their head in when they are being screwed over.

  23. Arthur 23

    Would some rwnj please tell us how much a wharfie should be paid?

    • Bored 23.1

      You wont get a sensible RWNJ assessment….my take is that if the CEO is on $500K p.a. anybody actually doing something, like loading / unloading must be worth multiples of $500K merely because they are doing something…working.

    • fender 23.2

      The rwnj ideal would be to steal the port then import and exploit some asian workers, put them on the min. wage then go swimming in their pool of profits for well earned break.

      This whole sorry saga is disgusting, who’s next then for a bashing due to earning maybe thirty bux an hour.

  24. randal 24

    on the money bored.
    the wharfies do the work but the accountants sit in a high rise looking out the window and get all the cream.
    so the question remains.
    who is going to get the stevedoring contract if the port operations are privatised.
    note operations.
    the geeks dont want the facilities because the amount of investment is too much for them.
    they just want the stevedoring which is ready money.

  25. KJT 25

    RIP New Zealand’s Labour party. MIA for all but two months before the election. Now confirmed KIA.

    • Colonial Viper 25.1

      KIA? What in some kind of heroic action. Don’t you mean AWOL?

      • KJT 25.1.1

        KIA is what you tell the relatives when someone is shot for cowardice in the face of the enemy.

        Labour is still letting the RW dictate the entire dialog.

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