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Some thoughts on Internet Mana and Laila Harre

Written By: - Date published: 9:02 am, May 29th, 2014 - 260 comments
Categories: internet party - Tags: ,

These thoughts are entirely my own and are somewhat random.  But every political junkie in the country must have followed yesterday’s developments concerning the Internet Party with interest.  And the implications of Laila Harre’s selection as the top Internet Party candidate are considerable.  So here goes …

  1. The Internet Party faced huge risks in the selection of its leader.  If it chose someone who looked like they were going to be a Dotcom puppet then the party could have been written off as a machine trying to make Dotcom’s extradition less likely.  The only way to counter this was to select a hard nosed experienced lefty politico with a reputation for doing the right thing and for toughness and Helen Clark was not available.  My second choice would be …
  2. The social media release has been impressive.  At the time I am writing this the candidate has not been confirmed.  But twitter has been abuzz and all the political blogs and MSM leaped at the rumour.  The roll out has been a lesson for the other parties.  Sort of a slow strip tease if you excuse the description …
  3. Dotcom has shown that he has a similar approach to the release of information concerning his case.  With devastating effect he has dropped into the public discourse all sorts of fascinating factoids which attract immediate attention.
  4. The Mana Party may be winners but losers from this.  The offer of free money is very difficult for a left wing political party to refuse.  All left wing parties wish they had similar funding to National/Act/Conservative who have money beyond our wildest dreams.  The Mana Party is running a significant risk however.  The loss of Te Tai Tokerau will almost inevitably spell the party’s demise.
  5. National will be hoping that Internet Mana may take 3 to 4% of the progressive vote and waste it.  This sort of event normally is the difference between winning and losing an election.
  6. If it succeeds Internet Mana could neutralise the unfair advantage that Peter Dunne/Act/Maori Party delivered to National last time.  These parties received 3.6% of the party vote but won 5% of the seats in Parliament at the 2011 election.  This difference was crucial.
  7. For any right wingers claiming that this is a bastardisation of our electoral system they should blame Judith Collins.  If she had not shelved proposed MMP changes this particular arrangement would not have occurred.
  8. As Stephanie Rodgers said Labour supporters should not accuse Mana of selling out.  The Mana supporters I have met I like a lot.  They have their own world view and they do their own thing which mostly is very valuable.  We should not lecture them when they make decisions they believe will improve the plight of the people they represent.
  9. Dotcom is a terrifying individual for both parties.  For National he is terrifying because he is tribally one of them but he has significant resources and he hates them with a vengeance because of their treatment of him.  I wait with baited breath the piece of evidence he believes he has which contradicts Key’s claim that he did not know about Dotcom until just before the raid.  For Labour (and the Greens) Dotcom could suck in and waste support which would otherwise go to either of the parties.  He introduces a randomness to the election which is unnerving.
  10. The election will be tight.  The day after the election we may be asking who the third or fourth Internet Mana MP is going to be.

So on election night a bunch of us will think that Dotcom’s involvement was either an act of genius or the wasted trashing of our democracy by a large German with a huge ego.  Time will tell …

260 comments on “Some thoughts on Internet Mana and Laila Harre”

  1. exitlane 1

    No brainer response from Labour here. Encourage voters to vote for Hone, and give Kelvin Davis a higher place on their List. Similarly with Annette Sykes, and kill off the Maori Party.

    The other no brainer. Would we really want the likely under- performing Labour contenders low on their List as MP’s or Hone, Laila Harre Annette Sykes and John Minto ?

    • Bearded Git 1.1

      +1 here exit. Keep saying consituency vote Hone, party vote Labour.

      It would be oh so lovely to see National hoist on its own petard because Oravida Collins cynically refused to to change the electoral system to get rid of the “coat-tail” electorates when she knew that she had the support of parliament to do this.

      And Micky is so right above about the very clever slow striptease launch of IM Party. The delaying for 2 days of the announcement of the leader (and then probably leaking it) so that for 3 straight days the MSM is full of IM Party stories is publicity gold.

    • Sanctuary 1.2

      Minto would probably be an utter disaster as an MP, because he is revolutionary who has no desire to try to make an effort to make the institution work for him.

      • phillip ure 1.2.1

        minto will make a great mp..

        ..all of those listed to date..sykes..minto..harre..

        ..they will all make great mp’s..

        ..who ya got..?…foss-the-hapless..?..(snigger..!..)

      • Minto would probably be an utter disaster as an MP, because he is revolutionary who has no desire to try to make an effort to make the institution work for him.

        Wasn’t that the assumption about Sue Bradford when she entered Parliament? How’d that work out?

        • Gosman

          Wasn’t one of the reasons she resigned from Parliament because she felt The Greens were compromising their activist priciples?

          • Macro

            And what pray ask, has that got to do with her effectiveness as a member of parliament?
            Sue was instrumental in enacting more private members Bills than any member before or since

      • Jenny 1.2.3

        Minto would probably be an utter disaster as an MP, because he is revolutionary who has no desire to try to make an effort to make the institution work for him.

        Now where have I heard that before?

        Oh Yes, now I remember.

        Mandela would probably be an utter disaster as President, because he is revolutionary who has no desire to try to make an effort to make the institution work for him.

      • Murray Olsen 1.2.4

        Nope. John Minto would be a great MP. One more honest person in the Beehive never hurts, he’s reliable, honest, and has an eye for detail. The pertinent question is whether he’s better inside or outside parliament.

    • aerobubble 1.3

      A left leaning ‘Epsom’. Te Tai Tokerau means any lefty voter would be down right self-destructive to not vote for Mana now. And then add in any right leaning voters who think National have stuffed them.

    • blue leopard 1.4

      +100 Exitlane

      I really hope that Labour Party strategists are taking note of the comments re strategic use of their canditates in areas where there is a pivotal member of another leftwing party. Maximise the left vote by doing this please. The left must unite to ensure that National is booted out of office.

    • Rosie 1.5

      +1 exitlane.

      Yes. Yes. Yes. Strategy. Strategy. Strategy. It’s vital this year, like never before. Split your votes in those key Maori seats good people.

      • Jenny 1.5.1

        Strategy. Strategy. Strategy. It’s vital this year, like never before.


        Isn’t this what Matt McCarten was hired to provide?

        • Colonial Viper

          Well, strategy tends to get put in the circular filing cabinet unless you can get buy in from across the organisation…

        • Rosie

          Exactly Jenny. Maybe there will be discussions about this most excellent opportunity behind the scenes and we don’t know yet, and as we know Matt and Laila go way back. But like CV says, “buy in”. Anyone in the caucus who is opposed to the idea of promoting strategic voting must surely have rocks in their head.

          Time to put ego’s and self advancement aside and work together. We have a fresh new force for good on the scene and the potential for winning has to mined to the maximum. (Sorry about the mining reference Jenny)

          And lol, what about sad and desperate Key on the radio this morning, something like “IMP are no threat to to National and the centre left, they are only a threat to those on the left as they will steal votes”. Sigh.

          • Jenny

            ….the potential for winning has to mined to the maximum. (Sorry about the mining reference Jenny)

            Hear, hear Rosie.

            Being no stranger to winning, sometimes against extreme odds, I know that you have to ‘mine’ every opportunity. (By the way, no need to apologise for the mining reference), I am not against mining per se, just mining of coal. Coal is the most deadliest fossil fuel for the climate, it is in the war on coal that our small country could strike its greatest blow against climate change. We could do this by setting a world leading example, hopefully witnessed by our closest neighbor and dearest friend, Australia, who are badly lost in the addiction to the quick and dirty profits that coal can bring. And Australia, unlike New Zealand, is no minnow in the global climate change stakes, being the number 1 coal exporting nation.

            This is where the campaign against Denniston comes in. Denniston has no spin off effect for jobs, nor any integral part of our industrial development, just like the biggest part of the Australian coal industry, Denniston is purely for export.

            Stopping Denniston is a vital unmissable step in the overall global battle against climate change. If Denniston goes ahead we are all doomed.

    • David H 1.6

      Except that Cunliffe is stuck with FPP mentality. if Cunliffe was smart he could do a deal with the Greens and Bye Bye Dunne. he could do a deal with Hone, and hello Mana, and Bye Bye Maori Party and there’s 2 of Keys partners gone with no effort.
      But NO he is stuck with this Labour first, and all the way. But that road could lead to a small winning margin, or even to defeat. And TricKey is laughing all the way to the Polling Booth. Can someone get hold of McCarten and get him to talk sense to Cunliffe, Please.

      • Kiwiri 1.6.1

        Cunliffe is smart and strategic. He can see the bigger picture.

        It is my own view that it is not Cunliffe but some particular members of Labour’s caucus, the ones who tend to see the Greens or Hone as the enemy, y’know, that kinda thing.

      • Jenny 1.6.2

        I wonder what Matt McCarten is doing to earn his money?

  2. Colonial Viper 2

    There are certainly significant risks for the Left in terms of wasted vote, MS. But they are also manageable risks. Labour must hold off its natural FPP instincts and back off it’s candidate vote campaign in Te Tai Tokerau. For the price of Hone, the Left could gain an additional 2-3 (or four!) MPs, including Laila Harre, into Parliament.

    That is the election won right there, for the Left.

    (And has been mentioned before spelling the total end of the Maori Party by letting Sykes win in Waikari needs to be done as well).

    Labour will of course be accused of playing electoral games. The comeback should be quick and firm – Labour is playing this election smart, it is playing it by the rules and Labour voters will thank us for delivering them a winning result on the day. And (tongue in cheek), we’ve learnt a couple of Epsom tricks from watching our National colleagues!

    …looks like exitlane beat me to it…

    • Tracey 2.1

      Not doing a deal will not be sticking to principles about fixing seats, it will be their principle of its about “us” first” then the people of NZ. This deal is obvious to ANYONE who wants to see the Key government gone but who will Labour put first? Pride comes before a fall.

    • weka 2.2

      CV, dude, you really are in the wrong party.

    • greywarbler 2.3

      Spot on. As for playing electoral games for gains – of course. That was what MMP was introduced for, to allow us to have some wiggle room, to find better ways of representing all the people so every three years there can be a different configuration. How many small parties started when it was first introduced? We still have our two political pillars, but they had become useless for the country’s purpose. Should have been refunded and sent back to the manufacturers. But now some new stuff will grow and prosper.

      We haven’t got a perfect government and how could there be in these imperfect times. We have a government that fits the state of the world, which allows us to be a David (choose name of preference) against the Goliath that is the world state.

  3. veutoviper 3

    ” 10.The election will be tight. The day after the election we may be asking the third or fourth Internet Mana MP is going to be.

    IMO we will know in a week or two, who the Internet Party candidates will be, and their listings.

    There does not appear to have been anything in the main media about what is happening within the Internet Party, but its Twitter account and website are worth watching. They have not been sitting on their hands.

    First, their call for candidates a week or so ago apparently resulted in about 150 applicants. The IP has been holding applicant assessment meetings open to IP members over the last six days – last Sat in Dunedin; Sunday – Christchurch; Monday – Wellington; Tuesday – Hamilton; Yesterday – 2 in Auckland; and later today – 2 more in Auckland. A final selection meeting is scheduled for Sat, 7 June in Auckland, noon to 6pm. They are looking at running 15 – 20 candidates according to their Twitter feed.

    Second, the IP are in the process of issuing draft policies with an interesting discussion forum for members to comment on/participate in the finalisation of these via the IP website. To date they have issued four main policies – Modern Education, Environment, and the other two whose titles I cannot remember are to do with Internet, privacy etc. Their draft Health policy is apparently about to be issued.

    I have not had time to read these drafts as yet, but the little I have heard about them is that they are well drafted, detailed and well worth reading. Drafts are available for anyone to read, not just members.


    Note – the website will not open for me in IE, but does with Chrome.

    • minto will be third..dunno who will be four..

      ..it woulda been bradford..u could assume…

      • veutoviper 3.1.1

        The Mana and IP have already stated that the agreement between the two parties provides for Hone as the Leader of Mana to be No.1, the leader of the IP at No. 2, and Mana having the third and fourth places (Sykes and Minto in that order). The IP then gets the No 5 and 6 places, and then Mana and IP candidates alternatively thereafter.

        • weka

          Unless Sykes wins her local seat, in which case she is the number 2 MP. In that situation, for Harre to get in, IMP would need 3% of the vote.

          1. Mana
          2. IP
          3. Mana
          4. Mana
          5. IP
          6. Mana
          • Tracey

            What is the most recent polling for her seat?

          • weka

            Weird, I just got refused permission to edit my comment.



            [lprent: that is odd. ]

    • Tracey 3.2

      Gosh, sounds like a proper political party, nothing like the one the media is reporting.

      • Bearded Git 3.2.1

        Ah but they are reporting it Tracey, and in spades, and that is what the IM Party wants.

        • Tracey

          no publicity is bad publicity? It doesn’t seem to work that way for labour?

          • Colonial Viper

            It works well for upstart, protest and radical parties. If you are already establishment its sorta bad because it turns off your establishment/conventional/middle class support base.

            • Tracey

              good point, eg the colin craig party…

              • Colonial Viper

                Also the pirate party in Europe, UKIP in the UK, etc.

                Historically, this is the dynamic which also worked for the National Socialist party of Germany.

                If mainstream politics ignores and marginalises the concerns of large numbers of people…people can and will flock to even quite awful parties in order to register a protest against the establishment system. Greece’s Golden Dawn is another one.

                • Populuxe1

                  The success of the far right in Europe has more to do with voter apathy on the centre and left than anything else. Extremists vote, which is why Russell Brand needs to be kicked in the balls repeatedly.

                • Lanthanide

                  “If mainstream politics ignores and marginalises the concerns of large numbers of people…people can and will flock to even quite awful parties in order to register a protest against the establishment system.”

                  Like United Dunne in 2002 when National’s vote collapsed.

      • veutoviper 3.2.2

        Exactly Tracey. IMO they have got their act together, and getting on with it. I think a lot of people from all sides of the political spectrum are going to get a shock over the next few weeks ….

        And Laila Harre is also great organiser – and knows and has worked before with a number of people on the IP team.

        • Tracey

          and her experience in the Greens get out to vote campaign and her ability to moblise union membership will assist when coupled with the Internet and technological expertise coming from Kumar et al, interesting times indeed.

  4. TheContrarian 4

    I just can’t understand why any left-winger would want to associate with, let alone support, a party that has Kim Dotcom as its nexus. The things he has done and said would, if done by a right-winger, be roundly decried by the left.

    If an election were held today my vote would probably go to The Greens and my hope is those wavering toward the IMP come to their senses.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      KDC isn’t standing, he has no vote in terms of policy formation – beyond being an ordinary party member if he joins, Mana could get 2 MPs into Parliament with the IP perhaps another 2, and this arrangement burns the ass of the National Party.

      What’s not to like again?

      • TheContrarian 4.1.1

        Anything to do with Kim Dotcom at its nexus is what’s not to like*

        *personal opinion – individual results may differ.

        • weka

          Yes, you say that you can’t understand why others like the IP/IMP. I think what you really mean is you disagree with them. Why they support the IMP is all over the internet, and I’m sure you have read and understood some of it 😉

          Not sure how accurate is it call KDC the nexus.

          • TheContrarian

            What I can’t understand is why some of the actions, comments and beliefs of Kim Dotcom haven’t attracted more scrutiny by some on the left when, if Dotcom was a supporter of Key et al. they would no doubt be much more criticised rather than ignored.

            I think it is pretty accurate to describe as somewhat of the center of the IP.

            Like I said in the original post, my vote looks likely to be Greens and I just hope those on the left are not distracted by the bells and whistles of the IP.

            • weka

              “actions, comments and beliefs of Kim Dotcom”

              Can you give some examples?

              • TheContrarian

                His support of further deregulation, the ‘racist day’, his threatening of a former staff member, stories of his paying less than the minimum wage, his description of NZ being mediocre that isn’t fun for his rich friends who want to get drunk and look at pretty girls, his convictions for insider training etc, the fact he bought himself into NZ (for all intents and purposes), his former support for arguably NZ’s most socially conservative politician, his spending money on self-produced albums etc while suppliers wait on payments for services rendered

                The above puts me right off him but that is, granted, my personal opinion.

                But I think we both know that if Dotcom were supportive, financially and publicly of Key or any other right-wing the left would be a bit more vocal about some of his less than savoury activities. And it is that seemingly hypocritical position that I can’t understand – not just disagree with.

                • Colonial Viper

                  KDC is not the Internet Party. That is of course the spin National might try on.

                  As for KDC’s flamboyant lifestyle – you really shouldn’t play the politics of envy, it’s just not becoming of you.

                  But I think we both know that if Dotcom were supportive, financially and publicly of Key or any other right-wing the left would be a bit more vocal about some of his less than savoury activities. And it is that seemingly hypocritical position that I can’t understand – not just disagree with.

                  Plenty of wealthy right wingers publicly and financially support National. It’s par for the course mate, nothing hypocritical about it, that National generally gets the support of the multi-millionaire class is just political reality in NZ.

                  • TheContrarian

                    So you misunderstood everything I said in totality.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I expect KDC to continue to suffer ongoing smear campaigns and for the Right to try and link them to IMP at every turn.

                    • TheContrarian

                      None of the above were ‘smears’ but things that actually happened.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Sorry I meant to say that they were smears on the InternetMana party. Also a way to turn public opinion against KDC and ease the path to his removal from NZ.

                    • the pigman

                      I believe they are smears.

                      Re: the less than minimum wage thing, all of the musicians he worked with on his album (including the manic/bi-polar Aaron Tokona who is currently being played by the RW) have said they were very well paid for their work.

                    • “Contrarian” – If you’re going to make those allegations, why don’t you present citations?

                      For example, “stories of his paying less than the minimum wage”?! Where did you source that from? Oh, I think I know, TC… Let me guess; starts with a “W”, ends with a “L” and has vast quantities of
                      rotting garbage in the middle?

                      If a neo-fascist blogger is you source then, as others have pointed out, they are smears.

                  • Phil

                    KDC’s funding of the IMP is no different to any of the dubious characters funding National.

                    Not the nexus of the party? Not buying political influence?

                    That’s a burlap sack full of bullshit.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      KDC’s funding of the IMP is no different to any of the dubious characters funding National.

                      Oh, it’s totally different.

                      For starters, it’s going to fuck National.

                • Tracey

                  i agree if he were aligned with the ACT party, for example, and john banks he would have some strips torn off him here but i dont think “the left” are as blind to his failings as a human as you suggest?

                • blue leopard

                  @ The Contrarian 11.15 a.m.

                  In a perfect world it would be a saint who had made millions and then put the money into a good cause – short of that, and understanding there are few who are perfectly saintly, rather than assess the donor’s personality traits we can assess what use that money is being put into.

                  In this way, yes, I no doubt, would be hollering from the rooftops if Dotcom changed his stance and started putting money into National. This would only appear hypocritical if a person had erroneously assessed what I had been supporting and what I was now objecting to. My changing stance, however, would be a reflection on Dotcom’s changing stance; because my praise or objection is based on what that money is being used for, what it is doing, what it is supporting, not on Dotcom’s character. This is not a hypocritical perspective.

                  Can you see the difference?

                  Putting money into the left is putting money into a ‘people first’ approach. People collect in groups for mutual advantage – not in order to have some benefit at the expense of others in the name of profit.

                  Putting money into the right is putting money into a ‘profits over people’ approach – which is being proven right before our very eyes to be a failure of an approach for society as a whole.

                  Why does the ‘profits before people’ approach persist? Because there are lots of people and groups with lots of money who are investing large amounts of money and time into keeping it going. We need people in privileged positions to be putting their shoulder (or money) behind ensuring an effective approach is taken – not one that is being kept going out of a very narrow (and stupid) self interested approach–just so the very privileged retain their privilege. (Which, by the way, eventually they won’t retain because the approaches these fuckers are supporting will collapse the system that they are gaining so very many benefits from – idiots.)

                  Any dodginess that Dotcom has in his character is a concern as far as how stable any party he sets up will be, his character raises doubts around how easy it will be for him to work well with others ( despite having a leader – will he get annoyed with a leader such as Hone and ‘break up the party’ in some manner). What he is doing with his money in regard to this election, however, is not based on an assessment of his character (which I know very little about) it is about how he is putting it into, for example, raising awareness over the GCSB bill, the internet issues and showing New Zealanders a pretty stunning example on how to speak out despite the status quo set by the media being hostile toward doing that and these things are truly heartening to behold.

                • wonderpup

                  Its a pity Aaron Gilmore isn’t around to bring these failings of KDCs to the fore. In fact, any clear conscienced right-wing MP should be able to denounce him, knowing full well that it wouldn’t blow up in their face, as they would never had said such things themselves.

                  Even better, would be to get major personal donors to the National Party to stand up and unhypocritically denounce KDC for not supporting the minimum wage. They would be paragons of ethical business practice, who had never complained in public or private about the dearth of hot chicks and party times. I’m sure there would be oodles to choose from, and not just the exclusive bretheren.

                  Seriously, I’ve already seen this stuff being used by sockpuppets on the ‘net (#nzpol is a good place to start looking). The facebook generation will compare it to the stuff they put on social media and blink, wondering what on earth you are talking about.

  5. Gosman 5

    I have no problem with IMP using the electoral seat rule to leverage getting more MP’S in to Parliament. I personally don’t see why we have a threshold anyway. Before you state it was to reduce the risk of extremist parties getting in to Parliament or to stop Parliament becoming overcrowded with smaller single interest parties I would state that I don’t think that would be the case in NZ. You just need to look at the support levels for the minor parties to see that.

    As for the IMP itself it is certainly a high risk strategy. Whilst it may very well increase the overall vote for the left blocit could also lead to it being canibalised and also galvinise support for the right as moderates are put off by the hard left rhetoric of IMP and the distaste being associated with KDC.

    • Pasupial 5.1


      Judith Collins is the reason the electoral threshold remains at 5% with the retention of coat-tailing. What an abject failure she is as justice minister!

      • Tracey 5.1.1

        Wash your mouth out.

        • Pasupial


          I wasn’t aware that merely typing JC’s name was seen as the equivalent of shouting “pseudo-dicked motherfuckess!” or similar invective that would require such mouth-soaping.

          Or is it the reference to her rejection of the Electoral Commission’s 2012 proposals regarding MMP that offends you?

          • Tracey

            Gosman votes for ms collins party and doesnt mind if she has low ethics provided she hasnt broken the law. Suggesting collins may have done something self serving is wash your mouth out material.

            • Gosman

              Why do you assume I vote for Ms Collins’ party?

              • Lanthanide

                Because you obviously support the government. It seems highly unlikely you would have voted for one of the opposition parties, or one that didn’t get into parliament.

                So it’s a pretty safe assumption.

      • Gosman 5.1.2

        As I have no problem with the Coat tail rule I don’t see what this issue is. Do you have a problem with it?

        • Pasupial

          I have a problem with you not doing basic research – eg; “I personally don’t see why we have a threshold anyway”. It’s not like the history of the development of MMP in Aotearoa NZ is some obscure arcane knowledge.

          • Gosman

            I understand that the Royal Commission recommended it and it’s recomendations were basically adopted without serious debate about MMP in the NZ context. We had the 5% threshold because Germany had it.

            • Colonial Viper

              Well, Germany also has massive trade unions who have representatives sitting on corporate boards of directors so lets copy that too

    • thatguynz 5.2

      +1. Never thought I’d find myself saying it Gos but that was a well reasoned post and I find it difficult to disagree with anything you’ve said there 🙂

    • aerobubble 5.3

      The threshold keeps lots of little parties around and has too benefits/flaws… …one, it means Act and Dunne get more votes as they can deliver seats; second, it means a 4% NZF gets no seats and ACT who got less.

      Now Winston said he liked where the threshold was, even though it hurt him. Why? To pander to current voters who don’t like change, and look magnanimous?

  6. weka 6

    The Mana Party may be winners but losers from this. The offer of free money is very difficult for a left wing political party to refuse. All left wing parties wish they had similar funding to National/Act/Conservative who have money beyond our wildest dreams. The Mana Party is running a significant risk however. The loss of Te Tai Tokerau will almost inevitably spell the party’s demise.

    I understood from an interview with Harawira on Morning Report, that Mana wasn’t being funded directly, but the IMP was. Maybe someone can clarify?

    What’s the risk associated with the money? That Māori in TTT won’t vote for Harawira because of it?

    National will be hoping that Internet Mana may take 3 to 4% of the progressive vote and waste it. This sort of event normally is the difference between winning and losing an election.

    Ae, and there is some tricky shit here this election. How many people understand MMP and tactical voting well enough to take the various issues into account? IMO this is where the risk is, but I find myself kind of excited, like the risk is worth it. I’ve never before considered that anything was worth another term of KeyNACT, but maybe this is.

    So on election night a bunch of us will think that Dotcom’s involvement was either an act of genius or the wasted trashing of our democracy by a large German with a huge ego. Time will tell …

    Whatever else happens, we can no longer pin this all on KDC. The meme that it’s all about him should be shut down immediately. It’s not true and it doesn’t serve the left. If we buy into the idea that the only important thing happening here is the money we may as well go home now.

    • Tracey 6.1

      If KDC is extradited won’t funding for IMP collapse? If they get seats obviously they get parliamentary funding.

      Most of this is political beltway navel gazing isnt it?

      The people out there are at work largely oblivious to the news and wondering who will get voted off Britain’s got talent, or the block or something?

      It’s interesting to all of us, but…

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

        If KDC is extradited won’t funding for IMP collapse? If they get seats obviously they get parliamentary funding.

        It’s a real risk you have identified. The way to do it would be to transfer the bulk of the required campaign funds over to IMP as soon as is practical.

        • veutoviper

          I think that the transfer of funds into the IP account has already occurred or is underway. Apparently, KDC transferred $250,000 in the last week or so, and possibly other payments have already been made with further ones to come.

          • Colonial Viper

            IMP better have the tightest financial controls and oversight over that money, and complete compliance with the Electoral Act. The last thing we need this election year is some bullshit money/fraud scandal on the Left.

    • veutoviper 6.2

      I haven’t time to find a direct link, but my understanding of the TV and radio interviews of Vicram Kumar and Hone H yesterday is that Mana pays for the electorate campaigns of Hone, Sykes and other Mana candidates for Maori and other electorate seats – and Mana already have their own money for these.

      IP will then be funding the joint campaigns of Mana and IP to gain party votes in other electorates.

      IP are also apparently looking at running about 15 – 20 IP candidates in electorates (see my comment at 3 above) and will be paying for these campaigns (including paying their candidates the same as back bench MPs over the election campaign period).

      And I totally agree with you that the IP is not all just about KDC. He is still there in the background, but the IP now has a life and presence of its own. They appear to be incredibly well organised, staffed by go getters and using crowd sourcing via the Internet to develop their policies etc with active member participation. And from a couple of tweets over the last day or so, they are also appear to be offering help to Mana to use social media etc in their campaign.

      • Tracey 6.2.1

        ” (including paying their candidates the same as back bench MPs over the election campaign period).” THAT could explain Tamahere’s interest!

        • veutoviper

          Tamahere ? Or do you mean Willie Jackson? Willie is the one that I heard was saying that he might join if Laila Harre is the IP Leader. BUT he is too late to become an IP candidate as applications closed last week. LOL!

          • weka

            thank fucking god for that 😀

          • Tracey

            someone began the jt rumour on here. Tough decidion for him, working for a woman vs free money from kdc.

            Am not sure about willie jackson, not being “as bad” as jt, isnt a ringing endorsement is it?

            • Colonial Viper

              One key question to ask is what kind of working relationship does LH have with JT, if any. If Laila Harre views JT as a dickhead, well, that’s that.

            • veutoviper

              Personally I would not like to see either of them involved. But Willie Jackson and Laila Harre have worked together before as they were both Alliance MPs at the same time.

              From Widipedia entry on Willie Jackson

              In 1995, he joined the Mana Motuhake party, a Māori political organisation which formed part of the Alliance. In the 1996 elections, he stood unsuccessfully for Parliament. In the 1999 elections, however, he was elected as an Alliance list MP. In 2001, Jackson successfully challenged Sandra Lee-Vercoe for the leadership of Mana Motuhake.

              When the Alliance began to collapse in 2002, Jackson sided with the faction led by Laila Harré and Matt McCarten, and remained with the party when Jim Anderton established his breakaway group. In the 2002 elections, Jackson was ranked second on the Alliance’s party list, but the Alliance failed to win any seats.

              John Tamihere was a Labour MP and while he and Willie Jackson have worked together recently as radio hosts etc, they have not always been friends or on the same wavelength.

              Again from Wikipedia entry on Tamihere

              Tamihere has also attracted both criticism and praise for his views on Māori self-sufficiency. According to Tamihere, too many Māori “blam[e] others for our failure”, and Māori need to “take responsibility for our own actions.” This has placed him at odds with Māori politicians such as Willie Jackson, who accuse Tamihere of “victim-blaming”. Tamihere, however, claims that the “victim mentality” holds Māori back, and that Māori need to abandon it if they wish to improve their living standards.

              • greywarbler

                In that example of John Tamihere commenting on Maori – saying that there is too much victim mentality – I’m not quite sure what he’s on about. I agree, but on the other hand berating people and verbally slapping them down doesn’t create positivity either.

              • weka

                My main problem with Jackson is he basically called Louise Nicholas a liar and used his position as a radio broadcaster to support his mate Clint Rickards (Roast Busters confirmed what shit views he has on women and rape). That’s all fair enough re freedom speech, but it’s also fair that that should impact on any political aspirations he might have now. Any party that considers itself progressive should think long and hard about taking on people who so blantantly support rape culture.

              • Populuxe1

                Willie accusing anyone of “victim-blaming” is hilariously ironic.

      • Populuxe1 6.2.2

        “They appear to be incredibly well organised, staffed by go getters and using crowd sourcing via the Internet to develop their policies etc with active member participation.”

        Almost like an on-line shell company…

    • I understood from an interview with Harawira on Morning Report, that Mana wasn’t being funded directly, but the IMP was. Maybe someone can clarify?

      There’s a bit of a fudge there. According to the MOU between the two parties, the MANA Movement won’t get anything directly from the IP. The money will go into the joint Internet MANA Party. However, the funds of the joint Internet MANA party are to be spent on campaigning to get IM candidate AND component party candidates (such as Harawira and Sykes) elected.

      So, Harawira technically is right. But the MANA Movement still will benefit from this financially.

  7. Pasupial 7

    The Internet MANA Party (ok, technically; the “Internet Party and MANA Movement” Party, but that’s a mouthful and a half) have a great acronym in IMP. It’s as good as the Alliance of Consumers and Taxpayers’ and roads ahead of anyone else.

    Given the involvement of Bradbury and other meme-conscious netizens I wouldn’t be surprised if we start to see a few Tyrion Lannister images in the coming months. Or maybe an IMP/ Gimp Ansell billboard spin featuring that derping Key image?

    • weka 7.1

      I seriously doubt that Bradbury or the IP would engage in ableist shit 😉

      • Colonial Viper 7.1.1

        Are you able to configure your own internet server or are you not, is the key question.

        • weka


          • Colonial Viper

            “Ableist” from an information technology point of view isn’t very interested in physical disability. But your ability at doing tech stuff, logic and mathematics.

      • Pasupial 7.1.2


        You mustn’t have looked at The Daily Gallery section of TDB frequently then. Do you not think KDC might be getting a bit sick of all the Fat German references and start fighting fire with fire at some point?

        But yes, I probably shouldn’t have referenced the derp pic (though that was Key and Auckland uni students’ creation IIRC), It’d work much better with a bit of BDSM themed photo editing.

  8. kdc is not the first wealthy person to fund progressive-causes/politics..

    ..hopefully more will be now inspired to do the same..

    • Tiger Mountain 8.1

      From Lenin and Trotsky’s time the left has had some seriously wealthy backers although
      they, similar to left friendly intellectuals do tend to vacillate when the heat comes on.

      Internet MANA is an experiment in circuit breaking and wasted vote minimisation that has a use by date on it. The same issues will be there after the parliamentary elections needing community based activists, so I disagree with ’Sav that Mana Movement will disappear if its parliamentary presence does this time around.

      Oh, and John Minto is a highly articulate non ego driven guy that has kept his political powder dry for just such an opportunity as this.

    • aj 8.2

      “kdc is not the first wealthy person to fund progressive-causes/politics..”
      Amazing this hasn’t been pointed out earlier…

  9. Tracey 9

    Mickey I notice you didnt have any thoughts at all about whether labour should concede a seat or two to mana? You really had no thoughts about that when you composed the post? none?

  10. bad12 10

    i would suggest that 3–4% of the vote for InternetMana is highly likely in September and i would further suggest that based upon the Roy Morgan poll that directly followed ‘the announcement of the proposed alliance’ that 3–4% can be reached without adversely effecting either the vote of Labour or the Greens,

    IF, InternetMana were however to break the 5% mark of party vote,(have a derisive snort if you must, but, cast your mind back to Dunne and the worm, at times the NZ electorate positively adores the ”novel” in an election), then i would suggest that above 4% Labour/Green might start to see a little ‘slippage’,

    As a hard core lefty in the days of FPP i was tribally Labour, with MMP i have thrown such tribalism in politics into histories dustbin where i believe it belongs, i now vote tactically,

    On first reading MS i thought @ 10 ”but we already know who MP’s 3 and 4 are going to be”, but that aint entirely true is it with the Party Lists being effected by electoral seats….

    • mickysavage 10.1

      I was referring more to the possibility that the backgrounds of these MPs may not be known rather than their names.

      • veutoviper 10.1.1

        MS, the backgrounds of the first four IMP candidates are already well known if Laila Harre is indeed the Leader of the IP. No doubt the backgrounds of all other Mana and IP candidates will also be scrutinised closely by media etc during the campaign process.

        I heard (but cannot give a source/verify) that before the IP submitted their 500+ members list for registration of the Party, they checked the eligibility of each member before submitting a list to the Electoral Commission to avoid rejections.

        If so, I suspect that they are or will also be checking closely the background of each IP candidate hopeful before these people are confirmed as candidates.

    • Tracey 10.2

      Couldnt Mana have got almost the same outcome if Labour pulled electorate support from Hone and Syke’s seats?

      I presume IMP is aiming for 5%, is that realistic? Time will tell. Will be interesting very close to the election to see where undecideds sit.

      I note no one has really covered off the drift from Mana to anywhere else cos of KDC? I presume because Mana is only at about.07% in party vote? Will Māori Party pounce to use KDC as a major point of difference. I vaguely recall seeing something yesterday about it being a sign of selling out Māori?

      • Colonial Viper 10.2.1

        I presume IMP is aiming for 5%, is that realistic?

        3.0%-3.5% = 4 MPs is now realistic IMO. But they need that electorate seat.

        • Gosman

          Let’s do the maths on this hypothetical 3-3.5%. Given Mana and the IP party’s combined support is running at around 1- 1.5% at the moment to get to that level of support without harming the support of the Greens and/or Labour it will need to attract around 50 -60000 new voters. While possible it does seem like a steep hill to climb.

          • Colonial Viper

            yes it is (a steep hill)…

            • Tracey

              Well, they have 800,000 who didnt vote and the new wave of dont vote who became eligible since 2011. If they get 5-10% of that group, but i suspect labour will shoot all those who oppose this govt in the foot.

            • weka

              Which is why collaboration makes sense. But even without that, it’s not like IMP have to do all the work themselves. They take some easy votes from Labour, and the GP, and Labour and the GP also pick up some of the non-vote. IMP don’t have to get all their votes from one place, and neither do L or GP. There should be enough to go around.

              I do feel a bit for the GP though, this should have been their election and the limelight is getting stolen. Again.

  11. greywarbler 11

    A song for Ms Laila Harre? A game changer for a useful political vehicle for forward-looking NZs. Please, pretty please be leader.

    Eric Clapton’s Layla

    Let’s make the best of the situation
    Before I finally go insane.
    Please don’t say we’ll never find a way
    And tell me all my love’s in vain.


    • Rosie 11.1

      Lol Warbs, I was wondering when someone was going to put Eric Clapton up.

      ………… Her name is pronounced Lie – la, not Layla. 😀

      And, yes, please let it be Laila as the leader for the Internet Party. I have alot of respect for her, she is a tireless worker and and excellent communicator. I would love to see her back in the house.

      • greywarbler 11.1.1

        I see her as equivalent to Jeanette Fitzsimons who was outstanding.

        • marty mars

          Plus 1. I have huge respect for them both.

          • Rosie

            Warbs and MM, I’ve really missed the presence of such women in leadership.

            (Laila has just been confirmed as leader of The Internet Party!)

            • yeshe

              Yay !! Let the change begin ! Bye Johnny boy, and the horrors you have wrought upon this precious home of ours.

    • Murray Olsen 11.2

      A song about lusting after the wife of one of your best friends? Not sure who gets the Clapton and Harrison parts in the rerun.

  12. Clemgeopin 12

    Good points. To me it is true democracy in action. However, the left block needs to be pragmatic and smarter under MMP. This is what I propose:

    The left block of Labour, Greens and the Internet MANA should ensure less votes are wasted, the present government of Key is sent packing and a socialist oriented fairer government is formed.

    To achieve this aim, the left block should sit together now and chart out a plan for seat/party vote adjustments in all or in as many constituents as possible, especially in the marginal seats, the Maori electorates and in Epsom, Ohariu and Craig’s electorates.

    The aim should be to ensure that
    the Internet Mana gets about 4 to 5 seats with two electorate wins,
    the Greens get 13 to 15 seats with 2 to 3 electorate wins
    and Labour gets 45 to 50 seats in all.
    This plan could result in the left block securing 62 to 70 or more seats for the left block.

    The cabinet should include about 2 positions for the Internet Mana and about 5 positions for the Greens and the rest for Labour.

    If such a plan is not undertaken, there is every chance of the left votes being wasted to the big advantage of the right block of National, ACT, UF, CONS and the Maori party.

    A strong showing of the Left block in the election result will also make NZF non relevant or less relevant in the Government formation.

    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      A strong showing of the Left block in the election result will also make NZF non relevant or less relevant in the Government formation.

      Making NZF less critical in coalition discussions is an important point. However, I would not want to have NZF excluded or alienated altogether if the aim is to have 3 Labour terms – at some stage their help will come in very handy. Especially if you consider the survival track record of brand new parties like the IP.

      • weka 12.1.1

        Will Peters be around for 3 terms? Will NZF remain relevant without him?

        • Colonial Viper

          And those are excellent questions. There certainly seems to be no heir apparent and their succession planning seems optimistic at best. Peters I think will have the fitness and health to contest the 2017 election. But 2020? He will be 75 by then. Mind you he’d still likely outperform most of his colleagues who were 20 years younger than him.

          • Kiwiri

            If Winston has his lovely mother’s longevity genes, he is still a spring chook.

          • DS

            Walter Nash became Prime Minister aged 75. Then fought another election after that.

        • Tracey

          Imo, unless he finds a mini me, nzf is dead without him. Will his votes move somewhere like colin craigs party at that point?

    • Chooky 12.2

      +100 Clemgeopin…the Left needs to co-operate and co-ordinate itself beforehand for an MMP Left block win!

      ….there can be no Party factional egos or infighting and competition here….leading to splintering of crucial Left votes in marginal electorates

      ….all must be subsumed for the push for the BIG LEFT COALITION ELECTION WIN! ( anything less is a betrayal and is unforgivable)

  13. Plan B 13

    There is no evidence that Dotcom could have that supports his assertion that JK knew of him/knew him that cannot be simply countered by JK. He is the master of ‘I do not recall, I don’t remember etc

    • Gosman 13.1

      Agreed. Even if he did National (or at least Key) would be aware of it at some level. As much as you guys dislike Key you have to accept he is politically astute enough to start spinning this now so as to counter the revelations if there were any. The alternative is he knows he is screwed and is hoping for a miracle which seems a bit unlikely.

      • Naturesong 13.1.1

        I think most people here are already aware of John Keys prodigious ability to mislead the public.

        • Gosman

          If we accept your asertion then you would agree that the best option would be to front foot any potential revelation from KDC by leaking details and then spinning it in a positive manner for National. Letting KDC control the narrative doesn’t seem particularly smart politically. This to me suggests that there really isn’t much in the way of new detail ready to come out.

          • weka

            “This to me suggests that there really isn’t much in the way of new detail ready to come out.”

            Then why did Key squirm so much and go red when KDC told him he knew that he knew at the GCSB oral submission hearings?

            • Tracey

              Uncomfortable cos he knew he had lied but couldnt think if there was really proof of it? Kind of like bennett forgetting if the cabinet club was supposed to be secret, so lied and denied all knowledge.

            • Clemgeopin

              I just went back to view that video. Very interesting submission and cross examination Q and A between Key, Shearer, Norman, Banks and KDC.

              Here is the video to to see it fresh once again:


              • Clemgeopin

                The initial part when Key says he has 15 minutes for the submission, KDC says the email said he was to have 25 minutes! Key disputes that and does not budge!

                Again, at the end to Mr Shearer’s question, KDC says Key knew about him before the raid. Key denies that to which KDC says, “I know you know” Key replies “I know you don’t know, you don’t know”! Then KDC asks him then why is he turning red? Key denies it and counters with “why are you sweating?” KDC replies, “oh, because it is hot”.

                Again at the end Mr Norman asks Key for an extension of time by 10 minutes. That request is denied. I found that pretty mean.

                Watch the very interesting video!

        • Tracey

          Yes, but gosman sees it as a game in which ethics are irrelevant. He seems to have a “may the best liar win” kind of approach to the future of NZ

  14. Chooky 14

    Hollywood moguls are moving to freeze Dotcom’s assets…RNZ mid-day news!


    • Tiger Mountain 14.1

      Hollywood moguls? Those perma tanned Peruvian marching powder hoovering paragons?

      Their assets could be frozen too until
      a) they start making decent films
      b) get off corporate welfare courtesy of the NZ taxpayer.

      “Crouching Tiger” II is in production in West Auckland, apparently attracted by the “incentives” presumably including union busting, according to an industry insider on RNZ this morning.

      • Chooky 14.1.1

        yes i was thinking this could develop into something they hadnt bargained for …eg a boycott of Hollywood films…most of which don’t really add much to the overall value of culture and human existence…..in many cases a good book is a far better, more enriching use of valuable personal time

        eg the ‘Lord of the Rings’ was much better as a book than as a film

        • Gosman

          Good luck with the boycott idea. I’m not sure why it didn’t happen for the Hobbit films already given the ‘nasty’ things that was supposedly done around that.

      • greywarbler 14.1.2

        Colourful TM. Script writing your bag? Can you write a good ending for the election, with fun skirmishes on the way.

        • Chooky

          no greywarbler …i will have to pass on that particular challenge…lol

          ….but i can see a few parallels with Mordor and the horrible flying Nazgull birds and the GCSB

          ….could make a good parallel movie script( play upon a play)…set in a real live country or countries

          ….question is who has the golden ring?….and who are the Hobbits?

          ….bags you write this script?

          • greywarbler

            I am thinking of the guy who writes down the list on sunday mornings i think it is dave armstrong. what a great surname! he is a very clever writer and knows nz political culture as if he learned it as a child with a helping each morning with his weetbix.

    • JAK 14.2

      Perverts who corrupt literatures for financial gain, manipulate locals into wage peonage and invade and damage the spirit of a landscape.

  15. blue leopard 15

    That is a very good point re the manner Dotcom has been releasing information – keeps the subject-matter in the public eye while avoiding switching peoples’ interest off.

  16. grumpy 16

    Anyone seen Mona’s replacement yet? Rumoured to be one of the “nannies”. Does Mana know what it’s got itself involved in here?

    • McFlock 16.1


    • the pigman 16.2

      If that’s the best FailOil has in his top drawer (rumoured to be filled with undergarments snatched off the clothing lines of neighbours in the dead of night) you might as well just stay home on election day…

    • Anne 16.3

      That’s interesting. The Nats are already rumour mongering?

  17. McFlock 17


    I’m less sceptical about IPMana today than I was a day or two back, but they still have a ways to go.

    It comes down to what happens if KDC comes into conflict with the party he funds. Maybe on an FTT, or capital gains, whatever.

    And while they seem to have put solid work into forming the internet party, I’m still aware that neither the sitting electorate MP or the proof of key’s knowledge have yet come to light. KDC might be waiting until he sees the whites of the election’s eyes, but then, maybe not.

    • weka 17.1

      Yeah I was wondering what happened to the existing MP.

      AFAIK, the agreement between Mana and IP, that formed IMP, is for the campaign, and is to be reviewed 6 weeks after the election. They have agreed to not campaign against each other, and am pretty sure that Harawira has said that there are no conflicts of policy.

      • Tracey 17.1.1

        Maori party already on the betrayal tack in te tai tokerau, completely ignoring their position under the feasting table taking john keys scraps… Forgetting their northern club 5000k a head fundraiser…

        The Maori Party sees the formation the Internet Mana Party as an opportunity to win back the Te Tai Tokerau electorate.

        The Party has selected Pita Sharples’ step son, Reverend Te Hira Paenga, as their candidate for the electorate

        Maori Party president Naida Glavish says they have high hopes at taking back the north.

        She says he’s young, dynamic and will be a voice with the youth, and not for the youth.

        Harawira hits back

        Hone Harawira’s biting back at Maori Party criticism of his new political alliance – amid claims the Internet Party is coat-tailing on his Maori electorate.

        Maori Party co-leader Te Ururoa Flavell says it’s a misuse of Mr Harawira’s Te Tai Tokerau seat, to bring people into parliament who may not understand Maoridom or the needs of Maori voters.

        Hone Harawira says there’s nothing wrong with the arrangement, and he’ll ensure the Maori seats are never taken for granted.”

    • Ergo Robertina 17.2

      ‘It comes down to what happens if KDC comes into conflict with the party he funds. Maybe on an FTT, or capital gains, whatever.’

      He’s nebulous, but not stupid. He knew Mana’s policies before proposing this. In the case of an FTT Labour’s way to dry economically to contemplate it, so a small party would not be able to negotiate one. But it puts it on the radar, which has been utterly lacking in NZ.
      Anything that makes George Osborne bristle can’t be bad: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/06/george-osborne-eu-financial-transaction-tax-legal-challenge

  18. Tiger Mountain 18

    IMP leader confirmed
    View at Medium.com

    • Chooky 18.1

      wow Laila Harre !…Leader of the Internet Party! …looks positively professional and AMAZING! ….that CV and internet promo is brilliant!

      ….makes John Key and his NACT entourage of motley female and male alley cats look positively amateurish and gutterish

      Go Laila Harre and the Internet/ Mana Party !!!! ( this dark horse come in from behind and the outside looks like a WINNER!)

      • Colonial Viper 18.1.1

        OK I admit that she already did her time with the image and style consultants. That certainly is a Tech company board room sense of presence.

        • Tracey

          You didnt fall for the msm carefully selected photos yesterday cv? 😉

          When i click the download poster of laila link, i get asked to join mega…

    • weka 18.2

      Great launch. This is good –

      “I bring an understanding of why we must change. What the Internet Party brings is the how

      Just looking smarter and smarter all the time.

  19. captain hook 19

    its just fatty and skinny trying to throw a spanner in the works. they have no policy.

  20. Clemgeopin 20

    Here is an excellent analysis of who the winners and losers are due to the new Internet.MANA formation. See if you agree.


  21. Roflcopter 21

    Well, the left have lost the ability to complain about any electorate seat stitch-ups between Nat/Act and/or Nat/Conv, Nat/UF, so I guess you’ll all have to just focus on policy… oh wait, you haven’t got anything decent there…. as you were, back to hypocrisy.

    • lprent 21.1

      Ah why? Perhaps you should try to explain your logic? Because I think you are completely nuts equating two minor parties joining as having anything to do with either Labour or the Greens.

      Personally I’d love to see the Conservatives and Act marry each other. It might be an unnatural Act but if you then add the hair of Peter Dunne then there is a party with a seat, a combined party vote and a synergy. Act have lots of money, conservatives have a coherent policy, and the hair has a seat.

      But as far as I am aware neither Labour nor the Greens really haven’t done those kinds of seat deals since late 90’s. Their members pretty much ignored them when MPs or the party have tried to suggest what they should do. They aren’t that stupid.

      Rodney Hide successfully won Epsom in his own right. But National recently started doing those silly deals with a uniform lack of subsequent performance (Act headed to the dogs, UF is heading there). I rather suspect that National would have to not stand candidates this time to be effective, and I wouldn’t be surprised if all that did was to drop the right vote.

      • Roflcopter 21.1.1

        The issue is the that IMP are intrinsically linked to the left, whether you like it our not. It doesn’t matter whether any stitch-up is major party to major party, major to minor, minor to minor.

        In 2011 the Labour and the Greens made a HUGE deal about the cup-of-tea Nat/Act deal, and how it wasn’t right. And in 2014 we have IMP essentially doing the same thing, with IP coat-tailing in on the back of Mana etc.

        That Lab/Greens are going to probably need IMP to form a gov’t if it’s close this year, they would be stupid to be out complaining again if the right side parties opted to do exactly the same thing as in 2011.

        • Colonial Viper

          ROFL, the Left is learning electoral tactics from National. It’s a process of continuous improvement, and of sharing the wealth.

          • Kiwiri

            The trickling down of wealth needs a little bit of help and encouragement to get it going. Hah.

            • phillip ure

              there seems to be a blockage..

              ..somewhere near the top..

              ..just needs a good roto-rooter up it..eh..?

              ..those at the top will scream at the approach of the roto-rooter..

              ..and at the ensuing personal discomfort..

              ..but it will turn that stalled trickle..

              ,.into a decent flow…eh..?

              ..in plumbing terms..

              ..you could think of internet/mana as the roto-rooter of nz politics..

              ..and should we call harre..’laila the plumber’…?

        • Kiwiri

          “That Lab/Greens are going to probably need IMP to form a gov’t if it’s close this year, they would be stupid to be out complaining again if the right side parties opted to do exactly the same thing as in 2011.”

          Lab/Greens should take the approach that the unifying elements are the progressive policies, e.g. digital bill of rights, advancement of democratic rights and interests through an open, free and democratised World Wide Web plus due process for any allegations of legal infringements.

        • Tracey

          You know national are announcing their policies “soon”?

      • Clemgeopin 21.1.2

        UF, ACT and CONS alliance! What a cool idea! They could name it the WINS party : WORM-INSECT-SPIRIT party!

      • Mike the Savage One 21.1.3

        “Personally I’d love to see the Conservatives and Act marry each other. It might be an unnatural Act but if you then add the hair of Peter Dunne then there is a party with a seat, a combined party vote and a synergy.”

        I can well imagine Mr Colin Craig “mounting” one fancy hairdo operator from the Khandallah hills, trying to insert convincing political “pleasure”. Alliances are formed all the time, with ACT, UF and so forth. Now would the Conservatives consider that an “unnatural act”?

        In physical and body terms they will, I am sure, but otherwise, they all engage in “unnatural acts” day in and out. Alliances can hardly be fair game for the right, and not allowed for the left. But once the left dares to engage in new alliances, it is all evil.

        I presume Colin Craig will lose faith in the eyes of his Christian followers, and they will condemn him to burning on the stake then.

  22. Rosie 22

    And she’s confirmed!!! Just on news now. Congratulations Laila. Go hard 😀

  23. ianmac 23

    Laila gave a stirring speech outlining just what the new order will achieve.
    A very good list identifying specifics. Makes the National Party look dreary.

    • yeshe 23.1

      An articulate delight of a meaty speech !!!

      As Dylan would say .. The times they are a’changin’ !

      See ya, Johnny boy !

      Quote from Laila in Herald link above …

      “”Internet freedom is the free speech issue of our age,” she said. “The Internet creates the spaces in which our youth gather. The town hall meetings of the smartphone age happen online. The Internet Party is teaching me a valuable lesson – that we’re the ones who need to change, to engage.”

      Welcome to the future. Love her.

      • Kiwiri 23.1.1

        Membership is $1.29 for the total period of three years, from the look of things?

        Good on them.

        • Colonial Viper

          $1.29 (incl GST), that’s positively corporate price setting

  24. Mike the Savage One 24

    Having followed developments around this, and having now heard that it is Laila Harre that will be the leading candidate for IP in the Internet Mana alliance, I must say, it is indeed a very smart move by Hone and MANA, to join forces with Dotcom and his IP.

    But to be honest, it is an alliance of desperation, from both sides. Dotcom is facing “the last stand” so to say, in legal and personal terms, where he faces serious legal challenges, extradition, has suffered his wife or partner leaving him, while she is controlling the trust or company that owns and runs MEGA.

    He is at risk of having Hollywood film studios and the Crown managing to get a higher Court of Appeal decision that is assets will all be frozen again.

    Under a Key led government, he will face less favourable future chances of “mercy”, than under a Labour led left of centre government.

    So he has thrown large resources behind the alliance, and Hone Harawira and others in Mana realised the opportunity, to make a deal, which they managed to negotiate to heavily favour MANA and their cause.

    Sue Bradford had to leave due to her very much respected principles, but for others, a deal with the rich migrant that also still has some of his own “mana” around him, that was the best opportunity to improve chances to win a few more votes, to ensure Hone wins his electorate, and to perhaps get another 1, 2 or even 3 MANA MPs into Parliament.

    Of concern remains the fact, that MANA will have made a deal with a wealthy foreigner, a migrant to this country, which many on the left is something they like to accuse the National led government of (see the recent media reports on wealthy Chinese donors to National and what some silly Nat MPs or Ministers went up to do).

    Also one must wonder, how “democratic” is the IP? Laila Harre seems to have been appointed, rather than voted into her candidate role. How can MANA accommodate such an approach. In the end though, it all is just a marriage of convenience, to throw Key out of government, and while some may object to the ways it is tried, it will satisfy others, who think, as long as this government is gone, something GOOD will have been achieved.

    I rest my case on Internet MANA, we will have to wait and see what will happen, a major electoral upset, or just a flash in the pan. It is a development I personally have concerns about, but we live in different times, where all sides use tactics and strategies that justify questioning. Good luck, Internet Mana, as long as it may last.

    • Colonial Viper 24.1

      But to be honest, it is an alliance of desperation, from both sides. Dotcom is facing “the last stand” so to say, in legal and personal terms, where he faces serious legal challenges, extradition, has suffered his wife or partner leaving him, while she is controlling the trust or company that owns and runs MEGA.

      It’s an alliance of inspiration, you mean. A well resourced one which currently has completely changed the political landscape in NZ and has the Right Wing set in a tail spin.

      Interesting that you would choose to bring this into the discussion however, especially as IMP have no conceivable ability, even with 4 or 5 MPs, to change any decision of the Supreme Court.

      Therefore my question to you is: why would you even consider this as relevant?

      Of concern remains the fact, that MANA will have made a deal with a wealthy foreigner, a migrant to this country, which many on the left is something they like to accuse the National led government of (see the recent media reports on wealthy Chinese donors to National and what some silly Nat MPs or Ministers went up to do).

      Now, you’re spitting shit.

      Please explain what “deal” Mana has made with Dotcom, and how that even compares to National Ministers enriching themselves while in office, through private business deals with foreigners.

      • Mike the Savage One 24.1.1

        Well, my friend Colonial Viper, that “deal” is first and foremost of course the agreement to form an alliance and have candidates under one party formation, but you must be a bit gullible to believe that Dotcom simply offers 4 million to run an election campaign, and will expect nothing much in return.

        His main goal is to have Key thrown out of office and government, but I am sure, that the funding made available does also come with some other “expectations” that are attached, of which we have of course not heard any details, as that is not something they (MANA leaders and IP and Dotcom) will openly discuss.

        If you think that it is suspicious that Oravida and other donors of National write out big cheques, and that they will probably also have certain “unspoken” expectations, it must also be reasonably expected that Dotcom’s generosity does not come without any expectations.

  25. Clemgeopin 25

    A good report about this new alliance and its implication for National on an Australian radio station by Selwyn Manning. Listen here:

    • it starts 5 mins in..

      ..and interesting how manning says he took a bradford-stance when this idea was first mooted..

      ..and wrote pieces opposing the idea..

      ..and now he says the arrival of harre changes all of that..

      ..and renders all of his bradford-arguments null and void..

      ..and that the internet/mana party ‘now has legitimacy with a capital ‘l’..’

  26. Clemgeopin 26

    Laila Harre’s excellent speech:

    In her first comments as Internet Party Leader, Ms Harré * offered a commitment to giving young New Zealanders “a future in the digital economy* “We are going to weave an awesome future.”*A strong attack on the National Government.

    Addressing criticism of the deal between Kim Dotcom’s new party and Hone Harawira’s Mana Party she said the party made “no apologies for acting in the strategic interests of this generation”.

    National’s “capture of MMP strategy” had led to the further privatisation of state assets, a strengthening of spying agencies, the “trading of employment laws to Hollywood and a “deal to double the size of the Auckland Casino with a disregard for accepted Government practices”.

    “It is time for the people to take back MMP for ourselves.”

    Half of young voters had chosen to participate in the last election and the Internet Mana alliance would “give them a reason to care and to engage”.

    Referring to what she said was the “political negligence” which only saw the belated recognition of women’s right to paid parental leave in 2001, she saw “similar negligence in the failure of the establishment to recognise the the public policy challenges and opportunities of the age of the internet.”

    She said as Internet Party Leader she would be supporting teachers’ ability to do their jobs “without the straightjacket of National Standards imposed by this Government”.

    The internet age “demands all of us especially the young have continual access to education”. Ms Harré said she had “unfinished business with tertiary education”.

    The Internet Party was the only party with “a core policy of restoring free tertiary education”.

    New Zealand had led the world in investing the welfare state, banning nuclear weapons and offering “a ray of sunlight” to the imprisoned Nelson Mandela with the 1981 Springbok tour protests.

    “I remember what side I was on in 1981,” she said in well received swipe at Prime Minister John Key.

    “We are going to change the Government, and this is going to be awesome.”

    Ms Harré, a Cabinet minister from 1999-2002, is a former Minister of Women’s Affairs, Youth Affairs and Statistics, and Associate Minister of Labour and of Commerce.

    Ms Harre is a qualified barrister and solicitor educated at Auckland University.

    She said her experience of the internet was much the same as many others who use it, but she is joining an organisation with expert personnel who have a vast knowledge of technology issues and solutions.

    “Internet freedom is the free speech issue of our age,” she said. “The Internet creates the spaces in which our youth gather. The town hall meetings of the smartphone age happen online. The Internet Party is teaching me a valuable lesson – that we’re the ones who need to change, to engage.

    “But the Internet Party represents so much more than that. Our Action Agenda and policy development process clearly shows the depth and breadth of our vision for health, education, environment, the economy – all the things that New Zealanders care about.”

    Since leaving Parliament, Ms Harré’s work has included a United Nations programme in Fiji strengthening the position of women vendors in produce markets, a two-year job in Fiji running the International Labour Office’s Strategies for Decent Work project, designing and managing human resources involved in setting up Auckland Council, and positions with one if the country’s largest private sector unions, the National Distribution Union, and the NZ Nurses’ Organisation.

    Here is the NZH report:

    • weka 26.1

      thanks Clem.

      Anyone got a link to the actual speech (text or video)?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 26.1.1

        I’m surprised it isn’t on the IP’s website

      • Tracey 26.1.2

        I thought it was posted higher up or in the other thread

        • weka

          All I saw was the link to the Herald article. Harre looked like she was in a press conference, so there must be some video somewhere.

        • veutoviper

          Too late to edit. But the link above is to Laila’s full speech on accepting the position as leader of the IP Party.

          Re why it may not yet be up on the IP website, my understanding is that they only have about 5 staff and, as well as the announcement etc about Laila being the new leader, they were also conducting the last two sessions of assessing applicants to stand as candidates for the party in Auckland after the leader announcements. Not tryong to make excuses, and a disclaimer from me, I am not a member or in anyway involved in the IP Party. Just fair is fair, etc.

          • weka

            yep fair enough. Thanks for the link, I just had a nother look via google and couldn’t find anything. Seems like the media haven’t been able to find it either.

            • Colonial Viper

              They should be monitoring The Standard more closely!

              • weka

                heh. Or they could have taken their own camera to the press conference. It seems bloody odd that nothing is online yet apart from the youtube. Maybe the IP kept tight control of things.

  27. Doug Mackie 27

    In point 9 it is bated not baited. It means to hold back, as in abate, rebate and masturbate. Just saying.

  28. Skinny 28

    I think The Internet Party should have stood alone and rolled the dice that they would get above 5%. Maybe the reason they didn’t is they probably had not enticed Harr’e early enough?

    Watching the launch on tv3 news I noticed alpha male Hone couldn’t help but beat his chest and say “Hey I’m the Leader.”

    There lies the problem, fucking Hone throwing his weight around at the announcement of The Internet Party’s Leader. I hope he gets knocked off his perch in the Far North and TIP poll enough votes to cut their ties with Mana to be a true stand alone Left Party. Of course I am assuming the contract allows a ‘get out clause.’

    • Colonial Viper 28.1

      Oh grow up, Laila Harre has been a Cabinet Minister before, I think she knows how to hold her own. But thanks for your concern.

      • Skinny 28.1.1

        A touch harsh CV, I have an opinion of Hone based on my own personel dealings with the man, based on that it’s not a very high one. Speaking of growing up Hone has hasn’t progressed past the bully boy thug that he is.
        I suggest he pull his head in and focus on campaigning to win his own seat. Kelvin Davis is highly respected up North and I have commited to him that myself and other Labour troopers will support his quest to win the seat by throwing our combined resources at it. There is also a strong base of Green activists that are personel friends of mine, that commited to this approach quite a while ago. Why is because we like Kelvin for what he stands for in his community, including the wider issues Maori face. So the challenge is out there may the best campaign win.

        • North

          Skinny……..my personal experience of Davis, viz. his refusal to answer my repeated emails to him re the destruction of legal aid and the impact on young Maori particularly, has me question his commitment, still. He’s a good boy and a safe machine man but that is not a magnificent recipe necessarily for respect. Hone is the archetypal leader who attracts at a gut level. Davis is not that.

          Ne’r mind. Let’s pointedly resolve to have one less Maori MP in the
          North than we might. Just like we did in the Te Tai Tokerau byelection.
          I mean it’s even a better pose now than it was then. Now we can choose to have one rather two. Choice !

    • come off it skinny..!..you couldn’t have read that more wrong..

      ..vid of that shows both dotcom and harawira looking at harre at she spoke..

      ..like gape-mouthed/adoring fanboys..

      ..and that line from harawira was a respectful/humourous acknowledging of the quality of the speech/candidate..

      ..nothing more..

      ..and harawiras’ delight at the fact it is harre leading the internet party/who he will be working with..

      .. is palpable..

      ..as i said..you could not have read that more wrong..

  29. Wayne 29

    With Lilia Harre as Leader, KDC has now lost control of his party. He gets to make a one-off donation and thats it. Lilia, Hone and Annette, and possibly Willie will now run the Party.

    Well, thats actually good. As a voter and a person interested in politics I don’t want our representatives of whichever party to be beholden to string pullers in the shadows.

    Now I know the conspiratorial left beleive that of National, but National is too embedded into the DNA of New Zealand, and has far too many party activists for that to be true.

    At least with Lilia as leader of the Internet Party, I know what I am getting.

    By the way I don’t think this worries National that much. It is much more likely to scare middle NZ to National as a safe and predictable choice. I know that DPF is running his campaign on KiwiBlog, and so he should. It is always a good thing to point out hypocrisy.

    But for the Nats to be able to point to the Hydra on the left is going to appeal to middle NZ. In my view, somehow a combination of Mana, Internet, Greens and Labour (on 30%) is just going to look crazy. In a way that the National on north of 45%, plus a few add ons (ACT, UF, MP) does not. And in any event people already know what this package feels like.

    • veutoviper 29.1

      Who the hell is Lilia, Wane? At least show some respect and get Laila’s name right. (sarc)

      PS – thought you had made a resolution/commitment to only comment here on TS about TPPA? Cannot be bothered to look up your comment, but know it is there and will do so if necessary.

      • the pigman 29.1.1

        Either he is “waning” in his old age or has always been completely dyslexic. Never a trait that inspires confidence in a lawyer…

    • geoff 29.2

      As a voter and a person interested in politics I don’t want our representatives of whichever party to be beholden to string pullers in the shadows.


      • Kiwiri 29.2.1


        And: wah wah wah, mummy, mummy, by the way I don’t think this worries National that much, that is why I dropped by here to say that 🙄

    • Anne 29.3

      Oh dear, I think Wayne’s in shock or he’s been on the lolly water – or both.

    • felix 29.4

      Jeez Wayne, pull yourself together man.

      You just called Labour/Green/IMP a “hydra” …

      …while supporting a coalition of National/Maori Party/ACT/United Future.

  30. captain hook 30

    will this stupendous saga of deceit, treachery, intrigue and unbridled passion get a theatrical release or will it go straight to dvd?

  31. Ergo Robertina 31

    This Harre leadership appointment leaves me cold. I had been kind of intrigued by the idea of KDC’s resources being available to promulgate a financial transactions tax and the like with the moral integrity of Minto, and the public persona of Hone. This changes the mix, and I don’t see it working.

    • karol 31.1

      It doesn’t leave me cold because I have a lot of respect for Harre. Yesterday the news was quite exciting.

      Today, I find it a little strange. I think it’s because she’s been parachuted into the party from on high – appointed by KDC. She hasn’t worked her way into this party from the flax roots. She hasn’t been chosen by a procedure that includes members of the party.

      Yet, Harre has done her time working in communities for the political issues she is committed to. So it’s an odd situation. It probably depends on how she proceeds from here and how the party develops around her.

      I prefer the way the Greens and Labour have developed some procedures for choosing candidates, lists, leaders, etc., that involves the members.

      I think what the left needs more than ever, is a ground swell of agitation from the community.

      I guess it’s up to all of us really.

      • weka 31.1.1

        I agree about the IP’s lack of democratic internal processes, but I don’t think they can be criticised for parachuting in Harre given they’ve only been in existence for a few weeks ;-). Plus they got their membership overnight on the internet. I’m not sure it would be prudent to hand over selection control immediately to the membership. I would be interested to hear how the candidate selection process has been structured. And will be interested to see if the IP change their internal processes over time.

        • karol

          Yes, but the way of forming the party hasn’t risen from a flax roots initiative. That’s what’s odd about it – especially for a left wing party – at least, I see Harre as left wing.

          • weka

            Traditional left wing maybe, but in Harre’s speech she talks about the how times have changed towards the digital age. That the party didn’t form from flax roots is not without precedence in NZ, and seems less odd to me know than if they remain that way.

            • karol

              The digital age provides more opportunities for a flax roots intitative for politics- like occupy, etc.

              This top down approach is more like a business-led intiative than a community-led one.

              It may be that we need a mx of both to shift the corproatised power of the neoliberals/neoconservatives, as well as a flaxx roots movement. But, it’s a gamble.

      • Clemgeopin 31.1.2

        It is a new party. All NEW parties start with a self appointed leader or chosen by a few.
        I think that is always the case with all political parties in the initial start up stage.
        It is only later, after a few years that procedure for leader election will develop.

        • veutoviper

          +1, Clemgeopin. As I pointed out at 3 above, the Internet Party has a very democratic process currently underway to select other candidates.

          Re the leader position, I have not checked their constitution, but IMO

          they had the opportunity to pick a high quality person in Laila Harre;
          Laila is well-known to a number of the IP team and has worked with some of them in the past;

          -the deal with Mana rested to a large part on who they selected as leader;

          and time was/is very short.
          Hence they took a pragmatic decision.

          Here is an older 2010 Herald article on Laila Harre that gives a good insight into her nature and approach – h/t Russell Brown twitter


          • weka

            “As I pointed out at 3 above, the Internet Party has a very democratic process currently underway to select other candidates.”

            Veuto, your comment at 3 doesn’t show democracy or much about the process. I haven’t seen anything so far in my reading that details how the selection process is being run.

        • karol

          Usually parties start from some activist roots – at least left wing parties do. The NZ Greens started with the NZ Values Party. It was the result of a meeting of some politically active people at Vic Uni. It did have some flax roots people involved in the initial selection.

          The NZ Labour Party was formed from various pre-existing parties, groups and activists. That formation happened over a long period. It is nothing like KDC’s leap into politics and his top down, corporate-style approach to setting up the IP. He has amalgamated with some very long term poltical players and activists, making it a bit of a hybrid.

          The rules of the IP do lay out a fairly democratic process of selecting the Executive and candidates. However, there is a clause giving ultimate determination of how these processes will be conducted, to the executive committee.

          They look more transparently democratic than the National or Act Parties. Not sure if it is ultimately as democratic as Labour, the Greens or Mana.

  32. anker 32


    I think there might be a link to this on the DimPost, but if you haven’t seen this, this from Paddy Gower is really something else!

    How the right wing Tories hate it when the left play them at their own game and with an absolute master-stroke!

  33. captain hook 33

    and fyi I doo have a brian!!!**

  34. SPC 34

    The important electoral factor is the impact of the finance on getting the left wing vote out.

    How many of the non voters can be reached to go out and vote.

    The Obama campaign used the internet well to fund raise, here it is reaching the younger voter while they are on the net.

  35. Harry Holland 35

    Herald video interview with Sue Bradford. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/editors-picks/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503074&gal_cid=1503074&gallery_id=143307

    Sue is lamenting the ‘shift to the right’ she can see that has happened first with Labour, then with the Greens, and now with Mana. While she clearly has respect for Laila, she believes that KDC is a neo-liberal who will be pulling the strings.

    I’m not so sure about that last point. I have a feeling that KDC only really cares about punishing JK, and also I doubt that Laila is the kind of person to take kindly to anyone’s attempt to pull her strings.

    The interview also provides some deeper insights into Sue’s worldview, especially wrt China.

    • i watched that..and i am still searching for a real/valid/logical-reason for her to have walked..

      ..all i have seen to date is kneejerk stereotypical-branding of dotcom from her..

      ..and as bradford is an academic..

      ..and also knowing the actors in mana..and harre..

      ..that bradford still seems to think these people are this controllable-group..?

      ..able to be moulded/directed/dragged to the right by dotcom..?

      ..this puzzles me..

      ..as i couldn’t think of a group of individuals less likely to be able to be ‘turned’..eh..?

      ..as bradford is alleging..

      ..that claim is just preposterous..

    • bad12 35.2

      The interest for me in being again subjected to a Sue Bradford ”lecture” is in the fact that it illustrates why many of us believe She hasn’t quite got what it takes to be a leader,

      Simply put Sue bores the pants off me, She is entirely wasted in politics and should move into the field of military hardware, Sue could run the New Zealand airforce’s Drone Program,

      She has the ability to talk for long periods of time, leaving the listener with the impression that they have just been listening to the wind in the willow trees,

      The old joke from way back in the late 80’s early 90’s involvement in the unemployed rights and beneficiary movement that to a woman/man a Sue Bradford point made would have the whole room nodding, still holds some currency,

      2 of them would be nodding in agreement with Bradford, the rest would have nodded off to sleep,

      Bradford just ”cant see” any ”congruence” in the InternetMana alliance, ”it just can’t work” what with DotCom being a neo-lib rich prick and all that,

      In the next breath tho ”Westie teacher Bradford” can work closely at Unitec with ex-National Party MP Marilyn Waring, lots of ”congruence” with your Tory mate there is there Sue…

    • karol 35.3

      That video is not working for me. Has the NZ Herald pulled it?

  36. Harry Holland 37

    The IP leadership announcement video on the Herald website http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=143305

    KDC makes it clear he is extracting himself from day to day running of the IP and describes himself as Yoda to Laila’s Obi-Wan. Just who is supposed to be Luke Skywalker is not made clear : )

    Laila mentions free teriary education and says “The only bottom line is that we are not supporting a National government”.

    Hone says “I was, quite literally, over the moon”, ahem… maybe, since I have him down as the Wookiee…

  37. bad12 38

    Yes Phillip definitely, with the codicil: Everything in…

  38. North 39

    Oh I’m so relieved ! Kelvin Davis has this morning publicly assured the nation that he’s the best candidate in the Te Tai Tokerau race. All is well then. One Maori MP in the North immeasurably preferable to two !

  39. Papa Tuanuku 40

    NEWSFLASH: Right wingers have been rorting MMP since b4 it began.

    The right wing rort and manipulation of MMP is probably THE political story of the last 25 years, if the right wing media would give the story the light of day.

    Details here (careful, the skulduggery is confusing):

    pre MMP – National and Labour MPs leave their parties before the first MMP election and form the Future NZ party, which later becomes United NZ Party and then United Future NZ party. Think Peter Dunne.
    1996 – 1st MMP election, the 5 Maori Mps (with NZ First) hold balance of power and side with National. (remember Winston was a National MP three years before this). Ex nat backs nat.
    1997 – Alamein Kōpu leaves alliance to prop up national govt.
    1998 – Winston pulls away from National. His 5 national MPs leave him and form a new party, Mauri Pacific, that props up the national govt.
    2008 – 5 Maori Party Maori seat MPs side with national govt, including ex labour MP (Turia). After a couple of years Harawira leaves this arrangement.
    2011 – (now) 3 Maori Party Maori seat MPs side with National.

    Since 1995 Peter Dunne has supported most govts, most recently supporting national to sell assets and to pass the GCSB laws.

    MMP rort themes:

    A long history of Peter Dunne manipulating the MMP system, setting up new parties to suit his political career. (starts as labour MP and ends up as United Future MP backing National govts, it makes the head spin!)

    The Maori seats being captured by parties who then back up national govts that decrease living standards for their voters. (Remember Maori seats are the poorest seats in the govt).

    Probably the biggest rort of all – the ACT party. Set up and run by ex labour MPs (Prebble and Roger Douglas) and then led by ex national MPs like Brash and Banks. These people must operate on the hope that people have no memories. They really are shameless.

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  • Speech to Labour Party Congress 2020
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