Surprise – ordinary UK voters like Jeremy Corbyn too

Written By: - Date published: 7:26 pm, August 16th, 2015 - 70 comments
Categories: labour, polls, uk politics - Tags: , , ,

Voting for a new UK Labour Leader has now begun. But the steady drum beat of establishment prejudice against left wing candidate Jeremy Corbyn continues unabated.

The UK’s Media Lens organisation systematically takes apart The Guardian’s claims that their coverage of Jeremy Corbyn has been well balanced overall. It’s clear from the Media Lens analysis that despite its protestations to the contrary, The Guardian has been eagerly participating in putting the boot into Corbyn.

Tony Blair has kept up his commentary too, saying that by voting Corbyn in, Labour is in effect walking over a cliff and faces an electoral “rout” or even potential “annhilation.” UK Labour grandees Alan Johnson, Jack Straw and Alastair Campbell have chimed in with similar.

The concept is that elections are decided by ‘centrist voters’ that Tony Blair and UK Labour Blairite MPs are supposedly closely connected to.

Blowing this Tory Labour nonsense to bits is a new poll showing that Jeremy Corbyn fairs very well against his leadership competition when ordinary voters are asked. He comes either number 1 or number 2 in factors such as trustworthiness, being in touch with ordinary people, intelligence and charisma.


Thirty-two percent of the interviewees said Corbyn, who has never held a government post, would make them more likely to vote for Labour in the next election, which is scheduled for 2020. Burnham came in second with 25. The poll was conducted around the same time former Prime Minister Tony Blair penned a Guardian column claiming that electing the 66-year-old Corbyn would result in electoral “annihilation.”

Voters thought that Corbyn would be a particularly effective leader for the opposition in parliament, with 31 percent of those surveyed saying he would hold the Conservatives to account, compared to 27 who favored Burnham, and less than 15 favoring the other two candidates.

So where does this leave the increasingly frantic claims by the Blairites and the Tory Labourites that Corbyn is the equivalent of the electoral Black Death for UK Labour?

My conclusion is that Jeremy Corbyn is bringing to the UK electorate a choice that it wants and that it has been missing: a real Labour Party offering real Labour values and a real Labour difference. And the ruling establishment clique, both within UK Labour itself and in general, don’t like that fact one bit.

70 comments on “Surprise – ordinary UK voters like Jeremy Corbyn too ”

  1. johnm 1

    100% right CV. The ordinary Brit has had a gutsfull of austerity for the poor and riches for the already rich plus the degradation of the tax revenue base.

  2. James 2

    I hope he wins. I really do.

    • In Vino 2.1

      Smugness is not an admirable quality, nor is the false pride that accompanies it.

      • weka 2.1.1

        What does that have to do with James’ comment? (which appear to me to be an expression of his desires).

        • In Vino

          No, I interpret James as wanting the win because it will damn and destroy the Left. I saw James as a troll.

          • Colonial Viper

            Yeah, ol James is trying out the meme that a Corbyn victory will ensure Conservative power for a generation.

            • James

              Not quite.

              I think that the generation thing is just a stupid argument from those making it.

              But I do think that Corbyn is unelectable for a general election.

              Still – it looks like he will win, and only time will tell if I am right, or if you are.

              Im pretty confident tho’.

              • lurgee

                I think it is unlikely that Corbyn plans to contst the 2020 election. He’ll be over 70 by then.

                I think it is more likely that he plans to win the leadership, alter the election rules to make it easier for leftwingers to get on the ballot, conduct a big policy review, touching on things the Blairites don’t like, and then resign in 2018 to become one of the most intriguing footnotes in British political history.

                Labour have some good talent coming through. A 2018 leadership election might feature:

                Keir Starmer
                Dan Jarvis
                Lisa Nandy
                Jon Cruddas
                John Dugher

                None of whom, remarkably, make me want to punch them repeatedly (Dugher maybe …). It’s a mostly centre-left list and the Blairite relics that have made the last couple of months so unbearable must surely have finally received the message by then. Not. Wanted.

          • Clemgeopin


        • Stuart Munro

          It depends whether it is a reference to Corbyn or to Blair.

    • weka 3.1

      I’m not sure what I am more shocked by. The Daily Mail running a race card smear story against Corbyn the day before Labour party members start voting. Or the idea that a Western leader would have dealings with a non-Western leader who is into violence.

      /extreme sarc

    • In Vino 3.2

      The Gutter Press (Tabloids) occasionally find that their bullshit flies straight back from the fan.

      • Kevin 3.2.1

        I don’t follow the daily mail so I don’t know whether they are gutter press or not. The question is is the story BS or not? If it is the Corbyn has nothing to worry about. If not then Corbyn has some explaining to do. The only defence I can see is that he was being diplomatic.

        [lprent: See my reply. ]

        • Colonial Viper

          Corbyn was seeking dialogue. I know you RWNJ types prefer war, but in reality, dialogue is far preferable.

          Meanwhile, I suggest you get back to the point of the post: Corbyn’s poll ratings in the leadership race.

          • Kevin

            I don’t believe in talking to terrorists.

            But anyway, this bit I find the most interesting:

            “Thirty-two percent of the interviewees said Corbyn, who has never held a government post, would make them more likely to vote for Labour in the next election, which is scheduled for 2020. Burnham came in second with 25. ”

            Yes that could mean swing voters would vote Labour if Corbyn was in charge. It could also mean that he’s the best of a bad bunch and they would still vote Tory.

            A better question would have been something like:

            “If an election was held tomorrow and Corbyn was in charge of the Labour party, would you vote Labour?”

            And what does RWNJ stand for anyway? Right Wing Nutjob? Meh, I’ve got a thick skin and have used the term “looney left” on the odd occasion.

            • joe90

              I don’t believe in talking to terrorists.

              RWNJ wants forever war because no modern popular insurgency has ever been beaten militarily and every peace made with every modern popular insurgency has been a through a negotiated settlement.


            • swordfish

              “I don’t believe in talking to terrorists”

              In which case, you’d have to oppose the close relationship that both the Tories and Blairite Labour Party have enjoyed with the leaders of an Israeli State that regularly massacres Palestinian and Lebanese civilians in order to achieve its political goals. Indeed, the two major Parties in the UK made membership of their respective Friends of Israel Parliamentary lobbies almost mandatory for any MP aspiring to high office.

              That sort of cuddling-up to State Terrorism must have made a highly-principled bloke like yourself absolutely livid !!!

              Or perhaps just quietly seething,….. very quietly.

            • pete

              You’re not talking to Americans?

          • rhinocrates

            Well, if you wants to know where the Daily Mail’s coming from, this is a pretty good demonstration from a newspaper that does have a rather better reputation for journalistic integrity.


            It does what it says on the tin. The reporter took quotes from Nazi propaganda, changed “Jew” to “migrant” and the Daily Mail was happy to post them online… and they got a lot of upvotes. It’s a nice inversion of Godwin’s law as a trolling exercise.

            It doesn’t get called The Daily Heil for nothing… and I don’t think Kezza is the sharpest spoon in the drawer.

            • Kevin

              Like I said I don’t read the Daily Mail. [deleted for idiot trolling]

              [lprent: What is your opinion! We couldn’t give a pigs arse for the opinion of some fuckwit at the Daily Mail – apart from noting that they appear to have been short of any verifiable facts in the article. Anyone who reads it will have some opinion on it. We want yours.

              This site is for expressing opinions and optionally backing them with facts.

              Trying the old “what do others think of this” is a classic troll pattern for trying to avoid actually stating an opinion while leaving escape room. It is also used for insinuating memes with links. And it typically starts stupid flamewars with idiots like you saying “But I didn’t actually say that”.

              I prefer to get rid of the problem early – in this case you. Put your ego under the hammer or don’t comment here. One more of these kinds of comment and you will receive a 4 week ban (with a double up every time you try to avoid the ban). ]

              • locus

                hmm… and if jesus hadn’t spent a bit of time with paul the zealot where would christianity be?

                just musing……

              • rhinocrates

                Oh no, you just happen to “conveniently find” that article. Right. Sure. I believe you. Really.

                “Disingenuous” is a word I’m thinking of. Look it up.

        • joe90

          I don’t follow the daily mail so I don’t know whether they are gutter press or not.

          You’d be a natural fit for a rag that is and always has been a fa*cist mouthpiece and owned today by a descendant of the original fa*scist supporters.


          • rhinocrates

            Given that Kezza’s referenced Cracked as an authority on scientific method and the Daily Heil as an authority on politics, I expect him to cite Spongebob Squarepants as a source on marine biology and The Flintstones on archaeology next.

            • Kevin

              Um, Cracked is a left-leaning liberal site that disguises itself as a “comedy” site (although it is pretty funny) and has a strong pro AGW stance. Just out of interest did you read the article? It applies just as much to people who put up “evidence” that AGW isn’t happening as it does to those who believe it is. Also, I would like to remind you of The Standard’s policy on person attacks.

              [lprent: We also have a policy on people trying to do our roles. The phrase is “pointless personal attacks” and rhino knows it well. Which is why it was rather a pointed observation on your behaviour. ]

              • rhinocrates

                There you demonstrate your fundamental – or deliberate – ignorance of science.

                Yes, I did read it – with my palm affixed to my forehead. lprent has dealt with the article in detail where you originally cited it. There’s no point in me repeating what he wrote.

                So what if you define Cracked as a “liberal” site? Idiocy is idiocy no matter who writes it – and people who quote it to serve their own agenda are disingenuous idiots – and you’re even clumsier than Hoots.

                As for your delicate feelings… didn’t you say that you were thick skinned? Funny that you start wailing now. Try to keep a level head and then you can dribble out both sides of your mouth.

          • Kevin

            “You’d be a natural fit for a rag that is and always has been a fa*cist mouthpiece”

            I regard that as a personal attack and would like to remind you of TheStandard policy: “What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate. ”

            I’ve put up a link that others have challenged (and fair enough), offered a defense (that Corbyn was being diplomatic) and put my own interpretation on the poll mentioned by the author.

            [lprent: Read the policy again and think about the precision of the phrase – “pointless personal attacks”.

            That was a rather pointed personal attack. We allow those here because while we can’t stop trolls from writing, it does allow an opportunity for barbed comments, and is the most effective way to deal with people with behavioral issues by other commenters. ]

        • lprent

          Or the Daily Mail spun something innocuous into something that a moronic fuckwit like you would think was significiant. I haven’t bothered to read the article, but your two comments on it do not state your opinion – which is what this site is for.

          You appear to have no level of intelligent judgement when you are reading material and putting in links, and I suspect you are doing fire and forget trolling with links. I really don’t like that…

          I suspect that have just drawn my attention, so it’d pay you to lift your game a lot. To be precise, I expect you to defend your links and why you found them interesting. If you don’t I will permanently ban you as just another idiot troll astroturfing.

          You have a week of auto-moderation to lift your comment standard above silly trolling.

          Yeah I am rather irritated with you, I didn’t like you trying to dodge around the ban. Remember we can figure out which person you are even if you shift handles and IPs. This costs us extra work, and generally we prefer to simply excise the work makers.

          If I see you do that again, I will simply ban you permanently.

          • Kevin

            Actually I didn’t even know I was banned until I did a search. All I knew is my comments weren’t showing up. Just as suggestion maybe have something like “Commenting disabled” message? Also and honestly I’m just trying to helpful here and you probably already know this, but you can get information about someone’s computer using the HTML canvas element – kind of like a digital footprint – meaning you can identify someone even if they change IPs, handles etc – without having to do any extra work.

            I posted the link as the author is putting forward the argument that Corbyn is gaining popularity. My opinion is that after the video referenced in the video politically Corbyn is dead in the water. Others have challenged the link specifically the credibility of the Daily Mail.

            But as I’ve said if the Daily Mail is wrong and or lying then Corbyn has nothing to worry about. If the Daily Mail is right then, in my opinion, he has some major explaining to do.

            Time will tell.

            [lprent: Well Duh! A kind of obvious hint.

            Why should I spend code on people who get banned? They can search, and the lack of comment appearing is a pretty good indication that they should look at their recent comments by clicking their name.

            We expect people to read the reactions to their comments – otherwise why did they put them up?

            Don’t give a damn about you putting the link up. It was the way that you wrote the comment that was a problem. It is a classic troll pattern to do the “I heard about this and don’t really know what to think” flame starter.

            That wasn’t an opinion. It didn’t reference anything in the article. Didn’t say why you found it to be an issue. It was just a way for you to put the link in without getting your opinions mashed and so you didn’t have any personal accountability. A classic idiot troll astroturfing.

            Guess what – you can’t do that duckway here. This is a place for robust debate, not one for gutless cowards who are too scared to use their brains. Instead they prefer the idiotic lines for some PR fuckwit.

            If you do it again, then I’m putting you up for a 4 week ban. ]

            • locus

              “But as I’ve said if the Daily Mail is wrong and or lying then Corbyn has nothing to worry about”

              Well of course, how reasonable of you. After all the Daily Mail is always right and it’s framing of people and stories never does any harm…

              • Kevin

                Well if the Mail is proven to be have been bullshitting then in my opinion it will only increase Corbyn’s popularity as he will been seen to have been unfairly attacked.

    • Jan Rivers 3.3

      All of the 10 points in Corbyn’s ‘Standing to Deliver’ manifesto are slap bang in the middle of social democracy and many should be things that Conservatives should also support.

      Beneficent rulers through the ages have often delivered equivalent goods to the people they have ruled, often without the constraints and expectations of democracy.It is a sign of how far the neo-liberal mindset has taken hold that life long education, a halt to wars based on lies and warm dry homes are seen as partisan. These are central elements of the social contract – what people should expect as part of their consent to be governed.

      What is risky about Corbyn’s candidacy is the strength of neo-liberal propaganda. Who has read Naomi Klein’s This changes everything?The figures on attitude change once the American right and the carbon industry decided to change the public’s minds on climate change are truly alarming, There was a 30% drop in the number of people who ‘believed’ in climate change over a few years as a result of attacks on scientists and the science. The challenge is to counter the mendacity of those with money and access to media platforms who would do the same to a social democratic party led by Corbyn. Today’s Daily Mail story is the first shot over the bows.

      • Kevin 3.3.1


        [lprent: Banned – 4 weeks for being a fuckwit troll. ]

        • rhinocrates

          Butter wouldn’t melt…

          Lyndon Johnson proposed spreading a rumour that a political opponent had fucked a pig. An advisor was aghast, saying that they could never prove such a thing. “I don’t care if he fucked a pig,” Johnson replied. “I just want him to get up and deny fucking a pig.”

          Meanwhile, the fact that the Daily Mail is a fa*cist-supporting rag and its reader’s (such as yourself) have opinions that are congruent with fa*cists has been proven.

  3. Clemgeopin 4

    He is an excellent person and a worthy leader. I would vote for him without any hesitation. That is why I am disappointed that, going by the information in the graph above, his support is not overwhelming compared to the other three.

    I am keen to know what % of support he has from (a) pro Labour voters (b) the general voters to be a future PM.

    There are still 5 more years to the actual general election by which time he will be 71 years. In that time, hopefully there will be a steady silent revolution towards worthwhile socialism not only in UK but in USA (Bernie Sanders) and all over the world. Tough ask. Hope is eternal! Fingers crossed knowing that (a) People overall think first of Numero Ono rather than others (b) The big money interests will try very hard to play dirty politics and damage his reputation.

    • RedLogix 4.1

      Two thoughts;

      1. Five years is a long time. Anything could happen – translating Corbyn’s results today tell us little about a possible new UK govt in 2020.

      2. More importantly Corbyn is brightly exposing the Establishment and it’s numerous minions for who they are. Their increasingly rabid, panicked denunciations are the equivalent of the kind of indelible ink that is sprayed on stolen money to render it useless for any future purpose.

      • Clemgeopin 4.1.1

        Good points, hopefully you are correct about the second if you mean (I am not sure what you mean) that the dirt won’t stick on Corbyn. (Or did you mean that Corbyn will be rendered useless?).

  4. swordfish 5

    Beat me to it, CV. I’m in the middle of a sub zero politics post taking a detailed look at the various poll results, in the process testing some of the more sweeping claims made by Corbyn’s Blairite, Tory and MSM critics.

    Here’s a few breakdowns from the Survation Poll:

    If Corbyn was Leader would you be more likely to vote Labour in the (next) General Election ?

    All 32%
    Lib Dems 34%
    Ukip 33%
    Tory 19%
    Undecided 24%
    2015 Non-Voters 31%

    Labour, Lib Dem, Ukip, and minor party supporters (as well as 2015 non-voters) all think Corbyn will make the best PM of the 4 candidates.

    Corbyn was also considered the most likely to take Labour in the right direction (meaning left) and was deemed – by a wide margin – to have the best ideas for the future of the UK (winning the latter category with supporters of all parties as well as 2015 non-voters and the currently undecided).

    • Clemgeopin 5.1

      Thanks for that, swordfish. Good question: ‘If Corbyn was Leader would you be more likely to vote Labour in the (next) General Election ?’

      I am a little disappointed by the low % from…

      All 32% [Too low, prefer close to 40%+]
      Tory 19% [That is ok]
      Undecided 24% [Not good enough]
      2015 Non-Voters 31% [Not good]
      What is the % for Labour supporters? Do they have that number?

  5. Tory 6

    So once again the left “cherry picks” an opinion poll that suits its agenda and concludes that the right have got it all wrong about Corbyn.
    On the 19 September2014, MS posted on this site that the final 3 opinion polls (NZ general election) all pointed to the election going down to the wire and he “would not be surprised if National ends up in the very low 40’s). So, given the disaster the left experienced and views often expressed on this site that polls are manipulated etc, why so much hope/optimism regarding this one? As I have been in Europe/UK all summer, Corbyn has certainly won over the far left vote but you are clutching at straws if you think this will extrapolate into an election win in 5 years.

    • Clemgeopin 6.1

      “So once again the left “cherry picks” an opinion poll that suits its agenda and concludes that the right have got it all wrong about Corbyn”

      So have you seen a different poll with similar questions but with an unfavourable result as you imply above?

      Re NZ elections, some unusual stuff happened during the last week, including Abbott in Australia announcing major terrorist threats.

      [Australia raids over ‘Islamic State plot to behead’: Police have carried out anti-terrorism raids in Sydney sparked by intelligence reports that Islamist extremists were planning random killings in Australia.

      PM Tony Abbott said a senior Australian Islamic State militant had called for “demonstration killings”, reportedly including a public beheading.

      The raids, with at least 800 heavily armed officers, led to 15

      That was just 48 hours before our election. I believe that had a significant effect.

      And remember that National just scraped through (47%) and with the help of the appox 0% to 1% parties, ACT, Dunne and the hapless Maori Party.

      • mikesh 6.1.1

        “‘And remember that National just scraped through (47%) and with the help of the appox 0% to 1% parties, ACT, Dunne and the hapless Maori Party.”

        And various parties asking their supporters to vote for Kelvin Davis.

        • Clemgeopin

          The problem for Labour is that voters are giving it primarily the constituent vote rather than the party vote first. So the party vote gets distributed all over the show. It is the PARTY VOTE that is crucial.

          • Colonial Viper

            Labour strategists and certain MPs seem slow in figuring that out.

            Strike that; certain Labour MPs see the electorate vote as being crucial because that is what is going to get them back into Parliament.

            • Craig H

              That’s not what any of them have said any time I’ve chatted with them or heard them speak to the faithful – the MPs are well aware that winning seats alone doesn’t get them into government.

            • Clemgeopin

              Yes, that is a BIG problem for the Labour party. Their party votes get siphoned off to two bit minor parties from Labour supporters with ‘good intentions’ but with poor understanding of how elections are won for their party.

              I am not sure how to solve this major albatross around their necks.

              Probably by…

              (1) Educating/encouraging all those who are Labour supporters or those who would like to see a Labour led government to first give their party vote to Labour and THEN give their candidate vote to the best possible left leaning candidate or the candidate that has the best chance of beating a RW candidate in the constituency.

              (2) By carefully organising the Labour party list.

              (3) By having electoral understanding with allied parties in some electorates or some marginal electorates.

  6. The lost sheep 7

    The ComRes poll finds 31 per cent of voters think that Mr Corbyn would worsen Labour’s chances if he became leader, as against 21 per cent who say he would improve them, an overall score of -10. Out of the leadership candidates, Andy Burnham is best placed to improve Labour’s chances, on +5, followed by Yvette Cooper on -3 and Ms Kendall on -6. But the potential leader with the best rating is David Miliband, who quit British politics two years ago, with an overall score of +11.

    The poll finds that more than twice as many British adults think that Mr Corbyn as Prime Minister would make the state of the British economy worse rather than better (36 per cent versus 14 per cent); while three times as many think he would make Britain’s standing around the world worse rather than better (37 per cent to 11 per cent).

    • swordfish 7.1

      Wow !

      You mean after an onslaught of abuse and scorn from a plethora of Neo-Liberal Establishment worthies, Blairite, Tory and MSM alike, each desperately pushing the line that Corbyn is absolutely toxic to voters and hasn’t a snowball’s chance in Hell of winning an Election, almost 70% !!! of respondents to all poll decided to ignore all the hysteria ?

      A big chunk of that 31%, incidentally, comes courtesy of the 50% of Tories who replied “Worsen”.

      Oh, and although you wouldn’t know it from some of the biased reporting, Corbyn has a higher Improve chances rating than any of the other 3 candidates.

  7. Tory 8

    TLS, so why advocate that this poll is right, especially when the left got it so badly wrong in NZ in 2014? This site seems happy to swoon in optimism if a poll provides the results you want to hear but as I pointed out previously your commentators were that far off the mark last election it wasn’t funny. I agree with what TLS has pointed out that overall Corbyns politics are toxic exempt to the few on the extreme left and like it or not it’s the votes in the centre that count.

    • locus 8.1

      polls are as right as the moment in time they capture – and the quality of the sampling strategy used

      in this case what the polls are telling us is that the majority of UK left wing voters prefer Corbyn over the other leadership candidates for the Labour party

      when people are asked why, they say it’s because he is a ‘real’ person – he’s winning them over by going out and talking about things that really matter to them, he expresses his opinions openly and honestly, answers questions without prevarication and doesn’t do personal (dirty) politics

      people are sick of the spin, bullshit and media gloss that they are so used to seeing from most other politicians

      You say: “Corbyns politics are toxic exempt to the few on the extreme left and like it or not it’s the votes in the centre that count.”

      you don’t quite get it do you…. the mood is changing … it’s ‘ordinary people’ – not “extreme left” who are hearing in Corbyn a voice that they can relate to.

      And if these ‘ordinary people’ are the ‘centre’ then i guess that on 7 May 2020 we’ll get to see the poll that really counts

  8. Sanctuary 9

    I was sitting at work reading a Q&A about a planned restructure and the companies answers were all PR weasel words and equivocation that basically meant nothing. It occurred to me that what voters yearn for more than anything else in a world saturated with corporate and political propaganda which asserts black is white is a straight answer to a straight question. So it almost doesn’t matter that, say, Donald Trump is an outrageous racist because he at least is up front about it. Corbyn is that sort of candidate. Yes, he is a left winger. And he has a set of reasonably popular policies that are clear. And he answers straight questions with straight answers.

  9. Raf 10

    This though from The Guardian today, well worth a read:-

    “The point is, Corbyn doesn’t have to be right about everything; he doesn’t have to be certain, and fully costed about everything; he doesn’t even have to be responsive and listening to everything. This political moment is about breaking open the doors and letting the 21st century in. We have been labouring since the financial crash under political verities based on economic principles that not even economists will vouch for any more. The internal critics of the current capitalist model are everywhere: the only people still cleaving to these ideas are the political class and the technocrats who support them. The absolutely vital thing is to wrest the conversation away from leaders who won’t critique the existing order for fear of sounding “anti-business”, otherwise we will be mired in the mistakes of yesterday for ever… etc”

  10. Smilin 11

    We’ve been living with Laissez Faire since the 90’s Why not a resurgence in SOCIALISM to balance the books

  11. rhinocrates 12

    Jeremy Corbyn’s rival, Kendall on the disabled.

    “Yes we must support the disabled, but we must support ordinary people as well.”

    The last includes this quote:

    “I’ve spent thirty years trying hard to prove to the world that I AM an ordinary person […] I fought to study in ‘ordinary’ schools, I fought to work in an ‘ordinary’ workplace. Many others fought for much ‘smaller’ rights to do ‘ordinary’ things safely.”

    The patronising phoney populism of ‘get to the back of the queue and wait for your turn’ is all too typical of the privileged middle class ‘centrists’ who claim to be progressives, take their privileges for granted and dismiss people with special needs as a distraction. We’ve seen the same here.

  12. pete 13

    I just hope the NZ Labour Party takes a leaf out of Jeremy Corbyns book – but I’m not holding my hopes high.

    A really good start would be to not take campaign dollars from corporates.

  13. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 14

    Give up righties! They know everything. They cannot be told.

    Leave them to dig up Michael Foot, I say.

    • locus 14.1

      ah yes, point at someone whose values and appearance didn’t appeal to daily bigot supporters 30 years ago to suggest that there’s some sort of parallel….

      the world has turned since then… and new generations have been subject to thatcherism, new labour tory-lite, neo-liberalism and the dirty politics, spin and deals of modern era corporate cronyism

      now if michael were alive today there’s a whole new generation who would love him

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    If those elected to the Māori Seats refuse to take them, then what possible reason could the country have for retaining them?   Chris Trotter writes – Christmas is fast approaching, which, as it does every year, means gearing up for an abstruse general knowledge question. “Who was ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    18 hours ago
  • BRIAN EASTON:  Forward to 2017
    The coalition party agreements are mainly about returning to 2017 when National lost power. They show commonalities but also some serious divergencies. Brian Easton writes The two coalition agreements – one National and ACT, the other National and New Zealand First – are more than policy documents. ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    20 hours ago
  • Climate Change: Fossils
    When the new government promised to allow new offshore oil and gas exploration, they were warned that there would be international criticism and reputational damage. Naturally, they arrogantly denied any possibility that that would happen. And then they finally turned up at COP, to criticism from Palau, and a "fossil ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    20 hours ago
  • GEOFFREY MILLER:  NZ’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and Ukraine
    Geoffrey Miller writes – New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    21 hours ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the government’s smokefree laws debacle
    The most charitable explanation for National’s behaviour over the smokefree legislation is that they have dutifully fulfilled the wishes of the Big Tobacco lobby and then cast around – incompetently, as it turns out – for excuses that might sell this health policy U-turn to the public. The less charitable ...
    22 hours ago
  • Top 10 links at 10 am for Monday, December 4
    As Deb Te Kawa writes in an op-ed, the new Government seems to have immediately bought itself fights with just about everyone. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere as of 10 am on Monday December 4, including:Palau’s President ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    22 hours ago
  • Be Honest.
    Let’s begin today by thinking about job interviews.During my career in Software Development I must have interviewed hundreds of people, hired at least a hundred, but few stick in the memory.I remember one guy who was so laid back he was practically horizontal, leaning back in his chair until his ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    23 hours ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: New Zealand’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and Ukraine
    New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he left off. Peters sought to align ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    1 day ago
  • Auckland rail tunnel the world’s most expensive
    Auckland’s city rail link is the most expensive rail project in the world per km, and the CRL boss has described the cost of infrastructure construction in Aotearoa as a crisis. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The 3.5 km City Rail Link (CRL) tunnel under Auckland’s CBD has cost ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 day ago
  • First big test coming
    The first big test of the new Government’s approach to Treaty matters is likely to be seen in the return of the Resource Management Act. RMA Minister Chris Bishop has confirmed that he intends to introduce legislation to repeal Labour’s recently passed Natural and Built Environments Act and its ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    1 day ago
  • The Song of Saqua: Volume III
    Time to revisit something I haven’t covered in a while: the D&D campaign, with Saqua the aquatic half-vampire. Last seen in July: The delay is understandable, once one realises that the interim saw our DM come down with a life-threatening medical situation. They have since survived to make ...
    1 day ago
  • Chris Bishop: Smokin’
    Yes. Correct. It was an election result. And now we are the elected government. ...
    My ThinksBy boonman
    2 days ago
  • 2023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #48
    A chronological listing of news and opinion articles posted on the Skeptical Science  Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Nov 26, 2023 thru Dec 2, 2023. Story of the Week CO2 readings from Mauna Loa show failure to combat climate change Daily atmospheric carbon dioxide data from Hawaiian volcano more ...
    2 days ago
  • Affirmative Action.
    Affirmative Action was a key theme at this election, although I don’t recall anyone using those particular words during the campaign.They’re positive words, and the way the topic was talked about was anything but. It certainly wasn’t a campaign of saying that Affirmative Action was a good thing, but that, ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 days ago
  • 100 days of something
    It was at the end of the Foxton straights, at the end of 1978, at 100km/h, that someone tried to grab me from behind on my Yamaha.They seemed to be yanking my backpack. My first thought was outrage. My second was: but how? Where have they come from? And my ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 days ago
  • Look who’s stepped up to champion Winston
    There’s no news to be gleaned from the government’s official website today  – it contains nothing more than the message about the site being under maintenance. The time this maintenance job is taking and the costs being incurred have us musing on the government’s commitment to an assault on inflation. ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago
  • What's The Story?
    Don’t you sometimes wish they’d just tell the truth? No matter how abhorrent or ugly, just straight up tell us the truth?C’mon guys, what you’re doing is bad enough anyway, pretending you’re not is only adding insult to injury.Instead of all this bollocks about the Smokefree changes being to do ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • The longest of weeks
    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past week’s editions.Friday Under New Management Week in review, quiz style1. Which of these best describes Aotearoa?a. Progressive nation, proud of its egalitarian spirit and belief in a fair go b. Best little country on the planet c. ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • Suggested sessions of EGU24 to submit abstracts to
    Like earlier this year, members from our team will be involved with next year's General Assembly of the European Geosciences Union (EGU). The conference will take place on premise in Vienna as well as online from April 14 to 19, 2024. The session catalog has been available since November 1 ...
    3 days ago
  • Under New Management
    1. Which of these best describes Aotearoa?a. Progressive nation, proud of its egalitarian spirit and belief in a fair go b. Best little country on the planet c. Under New Management 2. Which of these best describes the 100 days of action announced this week by the new government?a. Petulantb. Simplistic and wrongheaded c. ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago
  • While we wait patiently, our new Minister of Education is up and going with a 100-day action plan
    Sorry to say, the government’s official website is still out of action. When Point of Order paid its daily visit, the message was the same as it has been for the past week: Site under maintenance is currently under maintenance. We will be back shortly. Thank you for your ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • DAVID FARRAR: Hysterical bullshit
    Radio NZ reports: Te Pāti Māori’s co-leader Debbie Ngarewa-Packer has accused the new government of “deliberate .. systemic genocide” over its policies to roll back the smokefree policy and the Māori Health Authority. The left love hysterical language. If you oppose racial quotas in laws, you are a racist. And now if you sack ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #48 2023
    Open access notables From this week's government/NGO section, longitudinal data is gold and Leisorowitz, Maibachi et al. continue to mine ore from the US public with Climate Change in the American Mind: Politics & Policy, Fall 2023: Drawing on a representative sample of the U.S. adult population, the authors describe how registered ...
    4 days ago
  • ELE LUDEMANN: It wasn’t just $55 million
    Ele Ludemann writes –  Winston Peters reckons media outlets were bribed by the $55 million Public Interest Journalism Fund. He is not the first to make such an accusation. Last year, the Platform outlined conditions media signed up to in return for funds from the PJIF: . . . ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • Weekly Roundup 1-December-2023
    Wow, it’s December already, and it’s a Friday. So here are few things that caught our attention recently. This Week in Greater Auckland On Monday Matt covered the new government’s coalition agreements and what they mean for transport. On Tuesday Matt looked at AT’s plans for fare increases ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    4 days ago
  • Shane MacGowan Is Gone.
    Late 1996, The Dogs Bollix, Tamaki Makaurau.I’m at the front of the bar yelling my order to the bartender, jostling with other thirsty punters on a Friday night, keen to piss their wages up against a wall letting loose. The black stuff, long luscious pints of creamy goodness. Back down ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to Dec 1
    Nicola Willis, Chris Bishop and other National, ACT and NZ First MPs applaud the signing of the coalition agreements, which included the reversal of anti-smoking measures while accelerating tax cuts for landlords. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • 2023 More Reading: November (+ Writing Update)
    Completed reads for November: A Modern Utopia, by H.G. Wells The Vampire (poem), by Heinrich August Ossenfelder The Corpus Hermeticum The Corpus Hermeticum is Mead’s translation. Now, this is indeed a very quiet month for reading. But there is a reason for that… You see, ...
    4 days ago
  • Forward to 2017
    The coalition party agreements are mainly about returning to 2017 when National lost power. They show commonalities but also some serious divergencies.The two coalition agreements – one National and ACT, the other National and New Zealand First – are more than policy documents. They also describe the processes of the ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    5 days ago
  • Questions a nine year old might ask the new Prime Minister
    First QuestionYou’re going to crack down on people ram-raiding dairies, because you say hard-working dairy owners shouldn’t have to worry about getting ram-raided.But once the chemist shops have pseudoephedrine in them again, they're going to get ram-raided all the time. Do chemists not work as hard as dairy owners?Second QuestionYou ...
    More than a fieldingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • Questions a nine year old might ask the new Prime Minister
    First QuestionYou’re going to crack down on people ram-raiding dairies, because you say hard-working dairy owners shouldn’t have to worry about getting ram-raided.But once the chemist shops have pseudoephedrine in them again, they're going to get ram-raided all the time. Do chemists not work as hard as dairy owners?Second QuestionYou ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • Finally
    Henry Kissinger is finally dead. Good fucking riddance. While Americans loved him, he was a war criminal, responsible for most of the atrocities of the final quarter of the twentieth century. Cambodia. Bangladesh. Chile. East Timor. All Kissinger. Because of these crimes, Americans revere him as a "statesman" (which says ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Government in a hurry – Luxon lists 49 priorities in 100-day plan while Peters pledges to strength...
    Buzz from the Beehive Yes, ministers in the new government are delivering speeches and releasing press statements. But the message on the government’s official website was the same as it has been for the past several days, when Point of Order went looking for news from the Beehive that had ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • DAVID FARRAR: Luxon is absolutely right
    David Farrar writes  –  1 News reports: Christopher Luxon says he was told by some Kiwis on the campaign trail they “didn’t know” the difference between Waka Kotahi, Te Pūkenga and Te Whatu Ora. Speaking to Breakfast, the incoming prime minister said having English first on government agencies will “make sure” ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Top 10 at 10 am for Thursday, Nov 30
    There are fears that mooted changes to building consent liability could end up driving the building industry into an uninsured hole. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere as of 10 am on Thursday, November 30, including:The new Government’s ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on how climate change threatens cricket‘s future
    Well that didn’t last long, did it? Mere days after taking on what he called the “awesome responsibility” of being Prime Minister, M Christopher Luxon has started blaming everyone else, and complaining that he has inherited “economic vandalism on an unprecedented scale” – which is how most of us are ...
    5 days ago
  • We need to talk about Tory.
    The first I knew of the news about Tory Whanau was when a tweet came up in my feed.The sort of tweet that makes you question humanity, or at least why you bother with Twitter. Which is increasingly a cesspit of vile inhabitants who lurk spreading negativity, hate, and every ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • Dangling Transport Solutions
    Cable Cars, Gondolas, Ropeways and Aerial Trams are all names for essentially the same technology and the world’s biggest maker of them are here to sell them as an public transport solution. Stuff reports: Austrian cable car company Doppelmayr has launched its case for adding aerial cable cars to New ...
    5 days ago
  • November AMA
    Hi,It’s been awhile since I’ve done an Ask-Me-Anything on here, so today’s the day. Ask anything you like in the comments section, and I’ll be checking in today and tomorrow to answer.Leave a commentNext week I’ll be giving away a bunch of these Mister Organ blu-rays for readers in New ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    5 days ago
  • National’s early moves adding to cost of living pressure
    The cost of living grind continues, and the economic and inflation honeymoon is over before it began. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: PM Christopher Luxon unveiled his 100 day plan yesterday with an avowed focus of reducing cost-of-living pressures, but his Government’s initial moves and promises are actually elevating ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Backwards to the future
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has confirmed that it will be back to the future on planning legislation. This will be just one of a number of moves which will see the new government go backwards as it repeals and cost-cuts its way into power. They will completely repeal one ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • New initiatives in science and technology could point the way ahead for Luxon government
    As the new government settles into the Beehive, expectations are high that it can sort out some  of  the  economic issues  confronting  New Zealand. It may take time for some new  ministers to get to grips with the range of their portfolio work and responsibilities before they can launch the  changes that  ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    6 days ago
  • Treaty pledge to secure funding is contentious – but is Peters being pursued by a lynch mob after ...
    TV3 political editor Jenna Lynch was among the corps of political reporters who bridled, when Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters told them what he thinks of them (which is not much). She was unabashed about letting her audience know she had bridled. More usefully, she drew attention to something which ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • How long does this last?
    I have a clear memory of every election since 1969 in this plucky little nation of ours. I swear I cannot recall a single one where the question being asked repeatedly in the first week of the new government was: how long do you reckon they’ll last? And that includes all ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago
  • National’s giveaway politics
    We already know that national plans to boost smoking rates to collect more tobacco tax so they can give huge tax-cuts to mega-landlords. But this morning that policy got even more obscene - because it turns out that the tax cut is retrospective: Residential landlords will be able to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • CHRIS TROTTER: Who’s driving the right-wing bus?
    Who’s At The Wheel? The electorate’s message, as aggregated in the polling booths on 14 October, turned out to be a conservative political agenda stronger than anything New Zealand has seen in five decades. In 1975, Bill Rowling was run over by just one bus, with Rob Muldoon at the wheel. In 2023, ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • GRAHAM ADAMS:  Media knives flashing for Luxon’s government
    The fear and loathing among legacy journalists is astonishing Graham Adams writes – No one is going to die wondering how some of the nation’s most influential journalists personally view the new National-led government. It has become abundantly clear within a few days of the coalition agreements ...
    Point of OrderBy gadams1000
    6 days ago
  • Top 10 news links for Wednesday, Nov 29
    TL;DR: Here’s my pick of top 10 news links elsewhere for Wednesday November 29, including:The early return of interest deductibility for landlords could see rebates paid on previous taxes and the cost increase to $3 billion from National’s initial estimate of $2.1 billion, CTU Economist Craig Renney estimated here last ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Smokefree Fallout and a High Profile Resignation.
    The day after being sworn in the new cabinet met yesterday, to enjoy their honeymoon phase. You remember, that period after a new government takes power where the country, and the media, are optimistic about them, because they haven’t had a chance to stuff anything about yet.Sadly the nuptials complete ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago
  • As Cabinet revs up, building plans go on hold
    Wellington Council hoardings proclaim its preparations for population growth, but around the country councils are putting things on hold in the absence of clear funding pathways for infrastructure, and despite exploding migrant numbers. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Cabinet meets in earnest today to consider the new Government’s 100-day ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • National takes over infrastructure
    Though New Zealand First may have had ambitions to run the infrastructure portfolios, National would seem to have ended up firmly in control of them.  POLITIK has obtained a private memo to members of Infrastructure NZ yesterday, which shows that the peak organisation for infrastructure sees  National MPs Chris ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    6 days ago
  • At a glance – Evidence for global warming
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    6 days ago
  • Who’s Driving The Right-Wing Bus?
    Who’s At The Wheel? The electorate’s message, as aggregated in the polling booths on 14 October, turned out to be a conservative political agenda stronger than anything New Zealand has seen in five decades. In 1975, Bill Rowling was run over by just one bus, with Rob Muldoon at the wheel. In ...
    7 days ago
  • Sanity break
    Cheers to reader Deane for this quote from Breakfast TV today:Chloe Swarbrick to Brook van Velden re the coalition agreement: “... an unhinged grab-bag of hot takes from your drunk uncle at Christmas”Cheers also to actual Prime Minister of a country Christopher Luxon for dorking up his swearing-in vows.But that's enough ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 days ago
  • Sanity break
    Cheers to reader Deane for this quote from Breakfast TV today:Chloe Swarbrick to Brook van Velden re the coalition agreement: “... an unhinged grab-bag of hot takes from your drunk uncle at Christmas”Cheers also to actual Prime Minister of a country Christopher Luxon for dorking up his swearing-in vows.But that's enough ...
    More than a fieldingBy David Slack
    7 days ago
  • National’s murderous smoking policy
    One of the big underlying problems in our political system is the prevalence of short-term thinking, most usually seen in the periodic massive infrastructure failures at a local government level caused by them skimping on maintenance to Keep Rates Low. But the new government has given us a new example, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • NZ has a chance to rise again as our new government gets spending under control
    New Zealand has  a chance  to  rise  again. Under the  previous  government, the  number of New Zealanders below the poverty line was increasing  year by year. The Luxon-led government  must reverse that trend – and set about stabilising  the  pillars  of the economy. After the  mismanagement  of the outgoing government created   huge ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    7 days ago
  • KARL DU FRESNE: Media and the new government
    Two articles by Karl du Fresne bring media coverage of the new government into considerations.  He writes –    Tuesday, November 28, 2023 The left-wing media needed a line of attack, and they found one The left-wing media pack wasted no time identifying the new government’s weakest point. Seething over ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago
  • PHILIP CRUMP:  Team of rivals – a CEO approach to government leadership
    The work begins Philip Crump wrote this article ahead of the new government being sworn in yesterday – Later today the new National-led coalition government will be sworn in, and the hard work begins. At the core of government will be three men – each a leader ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago
  • Black Friday
    As everyone who watches television or is on the mailing list for any of our major stores will confirm, “Black Friday” has become the longest running commercial extravaganza and celebration in our history. Although its origins are obscure (presumably dreamt up by American salesmen a few years ago), it has ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    7 days ago
  • In Defense of the Media.
    Yesterday the Ministers in the next government were sworn in by our Governor General. A day of tradition and ceremony, of decorum and respect. Usually.But yesterday Winston Peters, the incoming Deputy Prime Minister, and Foreign Minister, of our nation used it, as he did with the signing of the coalition ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    7 days ago
  • Top 10 news links at 10 am for Tuesday, Nov 28
    Nicola Willis’ first move was ‘spilling the tea’ on what she called the ‘sobering’ state of the nation’s books, but she had better be able to back that up in the HYEFU. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s my pick of top 10 news links elsewhere at 10 am ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 days ago
  • PT use up but fare increases coming
    Yesterday Auckland Transport were celebrating, as the most recent Sunday was the busiest Sunday they’ve ever had. That’s a great outcome and I’m sure the ...
    7 days ago
  • The very opposite of social investment
    Nicola Willis (in blue) at the signing of the coalition agreement, before being sworn in as both Finance Minister and Social Investment Minister. National’s plan to unwind anti-smoking measures will benefit her in the first role, but how does it stack up from a social investment viewpoint? Photo: Lynn Grieveson ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • Giving Tuesday
    For the first time "in history" we decided to jump on the "Giving Tuesday" bandwagon in order to make you aware of the options you have to contribute to our work! Projects supported by Skeptical Science Inc. Skeptical Science Skeptical Science is an all-volunteer organization but ...
    1 week ago
  • Let's open the books with Nicotine Willis
    Let’s say it’s 1984,and there's a dreary little nation at the bottom of the Pacific whose name rhymes with New Zealand,and they've just had an election.Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, will you look at the state of these books we’ve opened,cries the incoming government, will you look at all this mountain ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Stopping oil
    National is promising to bring back offshore oil and gas drilling. Naturally, the Greens have organised a petition campaign to try and stop them. You should sign it - every little bit helps, and as the struggle over mining conservation land showed, even National can be deterred if enough people ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Don’t accept Human Rights Commission reading of data on Treaty partnership – read the survey fin...
    Wellington is braced for a “massive impact’ from the new government’s cutting public service jobs, The Post somewhat grimly reported today. Expectations of an economic and social jolt are based on the National-Act coalition agreement to cut public service numbers in each government agency in a cost-trimming exercise  “informed by” head ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 week ago

  • New Zealand welcomes European Parliament vote on the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement
    A significant milestone in ratifying the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement (FTA) was reached last night, with 524 of the 705 member European Parliament voting in favour to approve the agreement. “I’m delighted to hear of the successful vote to approve the NZ-EU FTA in the European Parliament overnight. This is ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Further humanitarian support for Gaza, the West Bank and Israel
    The Government is contributing a further $5 million to support the response to urgent humanitarian needs in Gaza, the West Bank and Israel, bringing New Zealand’s total contribution to the humanitarian response so far to $10 million. “New Zealand is deeply saddened by the loss of civilian life and the ...
    2 weeks ago

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