Tax cuts – because it worked so well last time

Written By: - Date published: 8:47 am, March 29th, 2013 - 190 comments
Categories: class war, economy, national, tax - Tags: , , , ,

They have to be kidding. Some kind of early April 1st prank – right? Yeah that must be it:

Income tax cut tipped as best bet

Treasury and IRD say drop would boost economic welfare – increasing incentives to work, save and invest.

Finance Minister Bill English has asked officials what tax reforms could materially lift the economy’s performance.

The fruits of their cogitations and modelling were made public, with an appropriate lack of fanfare, last week. Radical they are not. But they give us an insight into the thinking on tax policy at the Treasury and Inland Revenue.

They conclude that cutting personal income tax would be the most effective in boosting economic welfare. It would increase incentives both to work and to save and invest.

Blah blah blah. No, they aren’t joking, the really expect us to buy this nonsense all over again. Because of course we’ve heard the arguments before, they’re the same ones the Nats made the when they cut income taxes (as a 2008 election bribe). They were crap arguments then and they are crap arguments now. John Key promised us the tax cuts would have us “roaring out of recession”. They didn’t. We were promised an “aggressive recovery”. It isn’t. What really happened was that the tentative recovery that started in 2009 (before National’s first budget) stalled and stagnated. We teetered on the edge of a double dip recession, and got a couple of credit agency downgrades for our trouble.

Here’s right-wing journo Fran O’Sullivan’s 2010 assessment of the last round of tax cuts:

But all the elaborate dancing on the head of the proverbial pin does not disguise the raw reality that English’s billion-dollar bet that his Budget tax-go-round would turbo-charge New Zealand’s economic growth has (so far) proved to be a fizzer.

And here’s economist Bernard Hickey’s:

The government would point out it’s too early to judge the tax package … But the early signs aren’t good. It’s worth asking again: what was it all for? We have a higher budget deficit, higher debt, weaker growth, a weaker current account deficit and higher unemployment. But a certain section of New Zealand is now much richer in both income and wealth through a tax cut and higher property prices.

There is only so much money in the economy. Tax cuts don’t increase revenue. Tax cuts don’t cause growth. They don’t magically create “stimulus”, they just move the control of a certain amount of money from government directed spending to private directed spending (and the former can be much better directed to grow the economy than the latter). Government income falls. In our case the Nats had to borrow billions to pay for them. The tax cuts are at the heart of our budget crisis. So the Nats respond with stupid austerity politics that is damaging and holding back the economy.

The evidence on all this was clear in 2008, and it’s even clearer now. And yet the ideological loonies advising the government want us to go even further down this path. Surely even the Nats have too much sense to listen this time.

190 comments on “Tax cuts – because it worked so well last time”

  1. erentz 1

    Ohh. That’s why I haven’t found a job. The tax is disincentivizing me.

  2. KJT 2

    You still expect any sense from the fuckwits in Parliament.

    Couldn’t run a “piss up in a brothel”, and some people still think we should leave running the country to them.

    It would be funny if the consequences where not so tragic for so many people.

    If it failed before, we need more of it?

  3. Arfamo 3

    More tax cuts will fix things? Yeah, right. Doing the same thing again and expecting a different result. Classic rule of thumb definition of madness.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      That’s similar to the comment I left on the NZHerald article – hasn’t been published though. I didn’t think calling Treasury insane was that bad considering that the evidence supports that they are.

    • geoff 3.2

      Hey so what, I’m sure Wayne, Chris73 and all the rest of the tory drop-kicks will think this is a great idea.

    • Arfamo 3.3

      Talking to a National voter this morning about this. “No, he said, put GST up to 25%. All these tradies doing perk jobs for each other and not paying tax, they’re why the government’s not getting the amount of tax they should”. “Um…but consumption will dive, dude. Everybody will have to cut their spending. They’d get even less tax than now, wouldn’t they?, says I. “Aww, suppose that’s a point”, he says. “Still, I’d rather vote blue than red”. I realised afterwards he may have been suggesting dropping all income tax and replacing it with 25% GST, although he never actually stated that.

    • Colin 3.4

      Following you logic of not repeating failed ideas the welfare state should be stopped immediately

  4. TightyRighty 4

    That’s right, tax cuts have played a dramatic part in new Zealand’s susceptibility to the global recession. And governments should control the purse strings right? Because they never waste money. University courses like night golf and basket weaving have a massive p/e ratio.

    • Lanthanide 4.1

      If you can find some universities offering night golf and basket weaving, I’d be very interested in seeing the evidence.

      • Pete 4.1.1

        Otago offered a course in kete (PDF) over the summer. Which I think would provide a very enlightening insight into Maori material culture and would help to ensure the techniques in working with flax developed over the centuries aren’t lost. People scoff at things like physical education, fine arts and anthropology, but they all have very important roles to play in society. We can’t all be boofhead commerce grads.

        • QoT 4.1.1.1

          But Pete! Kete courses don’t set you up to produce things. Whereas commerce degrees set you up to produce … um … magical wealth out of the air!

        • Murray Olsen 4.1.1.2

          I doubt if tightyrighty could even be a boofhead commerce grad. At best, a PERFed out ex copper who dislocated his shoulder arresting demonstrators.

    • millsy 4.2

      It was that evil socialist Lockwood Smith’s commodification of the tertiary education system with the scapping of trade certificates, NZ certificates, etc and replacement with the National Qualifications Framework, and the dreaded Unit Standards that ushered in the basket weaving and twilight golf courses that you and other right wingers go on about. Tertiary education institutes, both public and private, were able to put together junk qualifications using these unit standards, and charge high fees for them that students would burrow for. For example, a National Certificate in Twilight Golf would have:

      Unit 12345: Choose a golf club to tee off with
      Unit 56789: Tee off a round
      Unit 13579: Sink a putt on the green
      Unit 54321: Put together a golf bag for a standard round
      Unit 24680: Fill in a golf scorecard

      And would be NZQA accredited so graduates would find a job in the golf industry.

    • Macro 4.3

      Night courses in Golf would be ESSENTIAL learning on Planet Key!

  5. RedBaronCV 5

    I’d support massive tax cuts at the bottom and if there are to be youth wages, perhaps by age, so that student loans etc can be paid back. Couple this with huge tax increases to recover all the money directed at the very top of the pile [as that didn’t work they can pay it back], but somehow I don’t thimk this is what Treasury will be talking about..

    • Draco T Bastard 5.1

      No, Treasury will be talking about more tax cuts for the rich – and so will National.

      • geoff 5.1.1

        I’d love to know how they actually justify this stuff because it is so completely at odds with reality.

    • felix 5.2

      How about you study, and then graduate, and instead of paying extra on top of your tax you just pay the same ordinary tax into that everyone does.

      It’ll just go into the consolidated fund like everyone else’s, but if it helps, we can all pretend that for the first few years every cent goes toward paying for the particular specific bit of education that you consumed.

    • rosy 5.3

      The thing for me was that he asked Treasury ‘what tax reforms could materially lift the economy’s performance’ He didn’t ask what financial / economic / social / or just plain reforms could materially lift the economy’s performance.

      He’s not really asking how to materially lift the economy’s performance, he’s asking how he can make people like stripping the State of funds.

      Just another boiling the frog moment in the implementation of a neo-liberal agenda.

  6. AsleepWhileWalking 6

    Actually, if they are referring to the removal of “paper boy” tax, and removal of taxation on the first $5000 earned for everyone I’m all for it. They should never have attacked youth in the manner that they have and not taxing the first 5K would help many low income earners and beneficiaries (yeah, beneficaries are TAXED before they see the money in their bank account).

    Removal of GST on unprocessed fruit and vegetables is ok by me too, although unlikely to ever happen.

    • alwyn 6.1

      Not all beneficiaries are taxed you know.
      All the retired politicians, and public servants, collecting their heavily subsidised Government superannuation payments get them tax free. Can’t have the poor dears having to pay tax during their retirement can we?
      Anyone not in that privileged group who saved their funds for retirement and put the money into term deposits or suchlike has to pay tax on the income, even though the interest paid today barely keeps up with inflation.
      I would like to see one of the parties which claims it wants all income to be taxed at the same rates, like the Green party or the Labour party, to come out and say that they will tax superannuation payments in exactly the same way as any other form of income.
      I won’t be holding my breath though. To do so would me end up with my complexion the bilious green of shirts that Russel Norman wears for TV interviews.

      • AwakeWhileSleeping 6.1.1

        My mistake!!

      • Draco T Bastard 6.1.2

        …to come out and say that they will tax superannuation payments in exactly the same way as any other form of income.

        Greens are after a Universal Income. So are Mana IIRC. Labour ins’t.

        Put that in, it’s non taxed and everyone gets it putting everyone on the same footing. All income above that is taxed at the normal rate. None of this tax rate for this group and different tax rate for another.

        • alwyn 6.1.2.1

          Do you have a reference to this?
          I have been through and through their policy and I cannot find anywhere where thay actually refer to income from a private superannuation scheme being subject to tax in the recipients hands.

          • Draco T Bastard 6.1.2.1.1

            It’s part and parcel of a Universal Income system. The only part of a persons income that’s not taxed is the UI – everything else is.

            It’s how the UI works and mucking about with it will make it not work.

  7. fender 7

    Just another ploy to sell further assets to their mates to make up the shortfall in revenue. One trick pony stuff that proves National are brain dead fools.

    • johnm 8.1

      Hi Jenny
      That’s how the market works:
      The stronger your market position the more you get; the weaker your market position the less you get that is the morality of the market and why we have immense inequality blighting our nations.Ultimately those useless to the market can go away and starve. It’s this greedy madness which has dominated the West’s social economic thinking since the 80s.

      One result: houses have been turned from a vital social good and resource into green monopoly get rich with capital gain boxes and now our young couples can’t afford to buy them because of the parasitic nature of that market fuelled by cheap foreign australian money. 🙁

      Instead they have to rent all their lives as economic serfs to landlords in their own country!

      I know one property speculator who has about 7 houses on the go and then this market becomes self reinforcing and we have a government who won’t stop it all with a Capital Gains Tax. Something like 80% backdated for 14 years! So nothing here for 160,000 of our brightest and most able who have left mainly for Australia. 🙁

      Insult to Injury we actually look up to these greedy types and wish to copy them we are money grubbing wealth worshippers. E.G. That mega ahole Bob Jones for instance, we think he’s special due to his market manipulated ill gotten gains.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1

        I know one property speculator who has about 7 houses on the go and then this market becomes self reinforcing and we have a government who won’t stop it all with a Capital Gains Tax.

        A capital gains tax won’t stop it. In fact, it’s purpose isn’t to stop it but accept that such speculation happens and for the government to then raise money from it.

        This isn’t to say that I’m against a CGT in a market economy, I’m all for it, but I think we need to accept that the CGT isn’t the total solution.

  8. Saarbo 9

    Good post, I cant believe that Treasury come out with more recommendations suggesting that tax cuts will make us work harder…what the hell is this about. So we’re all motivated to work in a linear pattern to money. What a load of crap.

    Want to boost economic welfare then model this treasury drop kicks: Reduce GST to 10% and then increase the top tax rate to 60%. Increase IRD staff to reduce tax avoidance schemes.

    That should give the country a good boost.

    Why don’t treasury provide us with high level workings on their scenarios so we can see the bull shit assumptions implicit in their workings. The problem is that these dickheads live in a small insular bubble and their assumptions don’t reflect broader New Zealand.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.1

      Why don’t treasury provide us with high level workings on their scenarios…

      You can – pick up any micro-economic text book and it’s all written there. The problem is that the economists at Treasury actually believe the BS rather than being able to think well enough to pick up the logic holes in the theory and that the basic assumptions the theory is based upon have absolutely nothing to do with reality.

      • One Tāne Huna 9.1.1

        There’s nothing wrong with that per se.

        “All models are wrong and some models are useful” said George Box.

        Unfortunately someone at Treasury thinks he said “some models are Gospel”.

      • TLAM 9.1.2

        Got it in one. Neoliberal economics treats the most bizarre assumptions as unquestoned axioms and then builds complex mathematics on a base of sand with their extreme physics envy. An infinite number of equally powerless firms and individuals (both Smith & Marx understood exploitation and the accumulation of power, whuch exists everywhere except in rconomists’ models), people as essentislly cultureless (asocial – an imporical nonsense), perfect information, utilitarian ‘ethics’ that kills virtues and duties needed to survive in any long term system, everybody is utility maximising, from which it follows that a market anarchy is the perfect world and the only relevant function of government is property protection and transactional contract law (because ALL human relationships are transactional, including family. these assumptions are rubbish. Their conclusions are nonsense and more, create the egoist erhic thru espouse and the exploitation they cannot see. Naturally, the large corporate exploiters fund them, their political patsies, and the media perceptions of competent businessmen in suits. Their logic cannot cope with anything except the metaphysics of a limitless mechanical world, certainly not social and environment complexity. The corraries are exploitation, accumulation of power, loss of democracy, centralisation, a mechanical hierarchical command and control model of ‘management’ and ultimate revolution – ecological, constitutional, or worse. But they are blind to implications because commerce grads are not taught to think. They are below Alchemists, Ptolemaic astronomers, and faith healers. They really have to go.

  9. millsy 10

    In 1996, Bill Birch was able to put together a generous package of tax cuts.

    He could only do it, by closing down or privatising dozens of hospitals, schools, and other services that New Zealanders depended upon, not to mention slashing benefits, and superannuation, and flogging off state housing and hiking up rents to unaffordable level.

    For every dollar you cut in taxes, there is a dollar less that goes to the local school or hospital. The Treasury nerds should spend a night in the casualty ward at Wellington hospital — they might think twice about calling for tax cuts.

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      The country would be a safer place if the first place to suffer significant cuts was Treasury.

      • millsy 10.1.1

        I would disband it completely, and split the functions between the Department of the PM and Cabinet, MOBIE and the Reserve Bank.

        • Macro 10.1.1.1

          Totally agree! Those “experts” have done more to wreck the economy of this country than any Global Financial Crisis has ever done.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.2

        I figure that Treasury is mostly wrong and cutting their budget will still have them being mostly wrong thus a 50% cut in their budget will bring about a 100% increase in their efficiency.

        • KJT 10.1.2.1

          As I have said before. “Treasury could be replaced by a wind up Don Brash doll saying, cut taxes, cut spending, sell everything”. No one would notice the difference.

  10. Mike 11

    “We teetered on the edge of a double dip recession, and got a couple of credit agency downgrades for our trouble.”

    Recent revisions to GDP show that New Zealand did actually endure a mild double dip recession in the second half of 2010, coinciding with the increase to GST and income tax cuts geared to the highest earners

  11. Adrian 12

    You’re a bit tough on Twilight Golf Units, Millsy. I bet Lydia Ko got an Excellence!

  12. felix 13

    Oh ffs.

    • One Tāne Huna 13.1

      Pretty much my reaction. Treasury needs a good clean-out.

      What they should be doing is scouring the world for examples of good practice (as measured by outcomes) and then offering them as policy options.

      This quasi-religious blather has to stop.

      • geoff 13.1.1

        I don’t think it is going to stop. They’ll keep going the same way until the next crisis and then they’ll modify the system just enough to keep it going (c.f the GFC) and then the next crisis will occur and again they’ll do the bare minimum to keep everything on life support. So it will drag on and on and our standard of living and economy will continue to reduce, which we’ll begin to think is normal, and the only thing to actually stop it will be when, finally, something catastrophic occurs.

        • One Tāne Huna 13.1.1.1

          So either it stops voluntarily or by some sort of catastrophe? The catastrophe is that it started at all. The effects were and are catastrophic.

          The catastrophe will end by an act of Parliament.

          • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1.1

            NZ is mentioned by name in the middle of the latest Keiser Report. As one of only two new countries (apart from Cyprus) which has introduced legislation setting up the confiscation of bank deposits to recapitalise failing banks .

            The other country is Spain. Very very suspicious.

            • karol 13.1.1.1.1.1

              Why suspicious?

              • Colonial Viper

                This legislation allows authorities to take money directly from your bank account and make it the bank’s money, if a situation arises where the bank may become insolvent or illiquid. It essentially destroys the notion of a “deposit guarantee”.

                AFAIK only three developed countries have this legislation currently. Spain, Cypress and NZ. Cypress banks have outright failed; Spanish banks are completely debt impaired and on life support. NZ…?

                • felix

                  Yay, putting your money in the bank now provides all the excitement of a riskier investment with none of the potential for a higher return.

                  Thanks National™, I’m lovin’ it.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Feb 11 letter from the Cyprus Central Bank assuring one and all that any proposed actions to impair or deprive bank depositors of their property rights would be unfounded, illegal and could not be seriously considered.

                    A month later they went ahead and did just that.

                    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-29/oooops

  13. KJT 14

    http://www.paecon.net/PAEtexts/Chang1.htm

    “Once you realise that trickle down economics does not work, you will see the excessive tax cuts for the rich as what they are — a simple upward redistribution of income, rather than a way to make us all richer, as we were told”. Ha-Joon Chang. Faculty of Economics. Cambridge.

    • One Tāne Huna 14.1

      He doesn’t go far enough. The destructive policies constitute deliberate betrayal – economic sabotage as well as fraud and theft.

      • Colonial Viper 14.1.1

        Yes, but Chang has to phrase things in an academically acceptable manner. After reading some of his material, I’m pretty sure that he knows the score. It’s not by accident that the top 0.1% has grown so fabulously rich while the bottom 80% has stagnated or gone backwards. It’s by design.

  14. xtasy 15

    Yeah bring it on, bring it on!

    Further tax cuts for those that already have homes, that have high enough incomes to perhaps save and pay off a home, for those that can afford a new car every few years, and for those that have jobs and some forms of independent income (not needing welfare payments).

    Then bring in the next slash and burn round of welfare reforms, and this time do not stop at re-arranging benefit types and forcing just a percentage of sick and invalids or sole parents into jobs that do not exist.

    No, next time do Ruthanasia NR2, CUT benefits in half, so everyone will be forced to find alternative ways to make ends meet. Prostitutions is legal by the way, so throw off your pride, dear “brides”.

    They work for less in Indonesia and the Philippines also, so we need to compete, right?

    I can already smell this coming around the corner. Do no longer rely on low paid migrants doing all the working poor jobs, start abolishing the minimum wage also, I presume.

    Thank you Treasury, and IRD, you are really having our interest at heart, yeah right!

  15. big bruv 16

    Right…so an individual who pays almost $40,000 in income tax is not paying enough?

    Why is it that the left think they have unfettered access to my money?

    Bring on tax cuts, the bigger the better as far as I am concerned.

    • fender 16.1

      Don’t worry, the right are making it so that the banks can have unfettered access to your money also.

    • xtasy 16.2

      big bruv

      What a stupid argument is this?

      If anybody pays 40 k in income tax the person must be earning bloody heaps of money!

      As wealth grows exponentially the more a person can earn income, all you suggest is more divide between haves and have nots, more in the hand of fewer and less to the growing number of not so well off, particularly the working poor.

      Take a hike, mate, a good tax hike!

      • big bruv 16.2.1

        Xtasy.

        So that person who pays roughly $40,000 in income tax works approx 70 hours a week, should subsidise (more than they already do) somebody who works 38.5 hours and has done nothing to better themselves in their miserable life?

        Nah, stuff them.

        Those who pay such high rates of tax do more than enough already. The “working” poor could try having less kids for a start off. They could also try doing something to better their current situation rather than demand more of my money simply because they are losers.

        • Colonial Viper 16.2.1.1

          The only way your answer is reasonable is if every person was given an opportunity to pay $40K of income tax a year. So in order for you to run your argument of moral superiority, any person in NZ should be given the opportunity of working 70 hour weeks (your example) in order to earn $160K pa.

          Nah, stuff them.

          They out number your high earning heroes 20 to one. Good luck with that.

        • fender 16.2.1.2

          Sounds like you have two jobs you miserable shit, no wonder we have unemployed when greedy shits want it all for themselves.

          • big bruv 16.2.1.2.1

            See Fender, that’s why the left are populated by a high number of losers.

            You want what others have but you do not want to work for it. I have one job Fender, and yes I work 70 plus hours a week.

            What’s more I love what I do and do not hate the boss which seems to be another thing that singles out losers and minimum wage earners.

            • Colonial Viper 16.2.1.2.1.1

              big bruv, capitalism creates a high number of losers. 50% of people in NZ earn less than $29K pa.

              I agree with you that people should be given a chance to do what they love, and to be recognised, and sometimes even paid well for it.

              This is not always going to be work which makes money for someone else, but it will be crucial work for the healthy functioning of a lasting society.

            • fender 16.2.1.2.1.2

              I pity anybody that has to work alongside you, maybe that’s why you have to take more hours than is fair while others are under-employed.

              I guess if you hate most others it leaves more love for your boss, just hope you don’t come a cropper with all your eggs in one basket.

              • big bruv

                Fender

                So you would advocate that nobody is allowed to work more than 38.5 hours a week?

                And I imagine you would do so via a compulsory union movement?

                Now, let’s think about this logically (not something the left are good at doing) if I am working 70+ hours a week then I am only picking up the slack from the likes of the dole bludgers and DPB breeders who refuse to work.

                • One Tāne Huna

                  Bollocks. You’re stealing hours from other workers. Food off their table.

                  • big bruv

                    So you favour compulsion as well Tane?

                    In your world how many hours a week would one person be allowed to work?

                    • One Tāne Huna

                      Don’t put words in my mouth, you wingnut trash.

                      I don’t expect you to understand words like “ethics” and “responsibility”, so there’s little point in explaining it to you,

                • fender

                  It may be a hard concept for you to get your head around, but you doing what is essentially two jobs means someone who wants a job goes without.

                  You are not ‘picking up the slack’ you are taking more than your fair share. But I’m sure in your stunted mind you feel nobody but you can perform your job so well despite the fact I’m sure your boss is being ripped off as your productivity will be lower than two people sharing the 70+ hours.

            • RedLogix 16.2.1.2.1.3

              Don’t get too complacent bb. Another few years and your job will be automated out of existence by a chunk of dumrs code that will do it 10 times better than you ever did.

              • big bruv

                Perhaps it may Redlogix. And then I might have to look at doing something else.

                What I will not do however is sit back and piss and moan because the job I trained for is no longer there. I will not demand that the tax payer subsidise my job (a great example of this are those who lost their jobs at the hillside railways yards in Dunedin and who think that the rest of us should pay them to do nothing because their trade is now redundant).

                I will also not sit in my shitty little rural town and refuse to move because there are no jobs locally. If that does happen then I will simply up sticks and go, take my skills and my drive to a town or city that has work and keep shelling out far more tax than is fair so dole bludgers and DPB breeders can sit on their backsides doing nothing all day.

                • One Tāne Huna

                  [citation needed]

                  Your bogeymen don’t exist, no matter how convincing you found Wingnut 101. Polly wanna cracker?

                • Draco T Bastard

                  (a great example of this are those who lost their jobs at the hillside railways yards in Dunedin and who think that the rest of us should pay them to do nothing because their trade is now redundant)

                  Those skills are not redundant – we will need those skills in the future unfortunately we have idiots like you in government who are quite willing to sell out NZs future for a few pieces of silver.

                  • big bruv

                    So let’s assume that we will need these skills in the future Draco. How long should I as a tax payer pay them to sit around doing nothing?

                    • felix

                      Who wants them sitting around doing nothing? I want them building, repairing and maintaining our rail infrastructure and training another generation to be able to do the same.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      There are also a few houses and office buildings to be rebuilt in Christchurch. Also quite a lot of nursing and care facilities are understaffed.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      They wouldn’t have been sitting around doing nothing – they would have been building and maintaining our trains.

            • xtasy 16.2.1.2.1.4

              big bruv – that seems to put you into some management or supervisory position. So you are possibly kicking the arses of much worse paid workers, to justify your salary and high tax rate. No wonder your boss loves you, they love the steel capped slave whippers, as that means, they do not have to do the dirty work.

              If you are on the other hand just doing contract or other work, well good on you for doing so well, but then stop moaning, you will be getting house, yard, car and possibly a boat and else in no time, getting you bloody well set up, and allowing you to not smell the sweat and hear the groans of the really hard workers paid poverty wages.

              You strive for betterment – to split you from the rest, that is one of the main problems in NZ society.

              People who work for money and gain only, who want to be better than the rest, and who have only contempt for those below them, they are in part responsible for the division, and the many social ills there are. You are perhaps part of the problem.

            • Acting Up 16.2.1.2.1.5

              So, Big Bruv, you work 70 hours per week. So that’s an average of 10 hours per day, every day of the week, including Saturday and Sunday. That’s an 8am to 6pm workday, with no breaks, every day.

              With that relentless approach to work, your hourly productivity must be pretty low from sheer exhaustion.

              No wonder you are hating on others you perceive have a better deal.

              Take a break!! There’s more to life than work and money.

              • RedBaronCV

                And if you look at the posting dates and times of BB it doesn’t look like the 70 hours is happening – unless he’s doing this in the boss’s time – tsk tsk BB we’ll have to shop you. Besides I thought you were a real right winger – they don’t work ! just count the money that others bring in.

                • xtasy

                  Yes, I am starting to think that bb is just here to stir up a lot of shit, and perhaps even is on the payroll of the Nat Party, or Banksie perhaps.

        • AwakeWhileSleeping 16.2.1.3

          Let me introduce you to a concept called “community”.

          I’m sure you will have some cutting reply. So sorry to read that you are “surrounded” by “losers” who work a measly 38.5 hours a week.

          • big bruv 16.2.1.3.1

            Community….you mean every body pulling their weight?

            Tell me where that happens?

            • Colonial Viper 16.2.1.3.1.1

              Everyone should be given a chance to pull their weight bb. Not just in financial terms but also in terms of social input and unpaid work.

              Further, those who DO want a role and do want to pull their weight, should be guaranteed the opportunity to do just that. It’s what you want, right? Everyone to pull their weight?

            • Colonial Viper 16.2.1.3.1.2

              Community….you mean every body pulling their weight?

              Community is also a place where members who cannot (or can no longer) pull their weight are looked after, respected, cared for, and their voices listened to.

              • big bruv

                And what about those members of the community who do not want to pull their weight?

                And as for “unpaid work”…well that’s called a hobby and why should I pay for that?

                • RedLogix

                  Oh dear .. you really do have an awful lot of yourself invested in this “pulling your weight” thing don’t you?

                  Tell me. Ever wondered why you get so upset about people who don’t or cannot work full-time being paid the equivalent of about $6/hr (most of whom actually do contribute something towards the common good) …. while at the other end of the scale when some freaking parasitic billionaire oligarch can screw the equivalent of $6,000,000/hr for doing almost entirely NOTHING of any good to the world … you never ever have anything to say?

                  Funny how selective this finely tuned sense of justice of your is.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Funny how selective this finely tuned sense of justice of your is.

                    Reading the latest Greer (and this one is a must read if you haven’t already, including the comments below it) I’m going to suggest that there is far more going on in BB’s specific view of the world (or should that be far less?) than he lets on.

                    • RedLogix

                      Thanks for reminding me. Yes …

                      Haven’t you heard of the madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran into the marketplace, and shouted over and over, ‘I’m looking for God! I’m looking for God!’ There were plenty of people standing there who didn’t believe in God, so he caused a great deal of laughter. ‘Did you lose him, then?’ asked one. ‘Did he wander off like a child?’ said another. ‘Or is he hiding? Is he scared of us? Has he gone on a voyage, or emigrated?’ They shouted and laughed in this manner. The madman leapt into their midst and pierced him with his look.

                      ‘Where is God?’ he shouted. ‘I’ll tell you. We’ve killed him, you and I! We are all his murderers. But how could we have done this? How could we gulp down the oceans? Who gave us a sponge to wipe away the whole horizon? What did we do when we unchained the earth from the sun? Where is it going now? Where are we going now? Away from all suns? Aren’t we falling forever, backwards, sideways, forwards, in all directions at once? Do up and down even exist any more? Aren’t we wandering in an infinite void? Don’t we feel the breath of empty space? Hasn’t it become colder? Isn’t night coming on more and more all the time? Shouldn’t we light lanterns in the morning? Aren’t we already hearing the sounds of the gravediggers who are coming to bury God? Don’t we smell the stink of a rotting God—for gods rot too?

                      ‘God is dead, God remains dead, and we have killed him. How can we, the worst of all murderers, comfort ourselves? The holiest and mightiest thing that the world has yet possessed has bled to death beneath our knives!’

                      Yes .. I smell it.

                  • big bruv

                    Redlogix.

                    Clearly you are blinded by envy, and I suspect stupidity.

                    The “billionaire oligarch” does far more good to the world than some lay about parasite who chooses not to work and is able to do so because dim people of the left let them hide behind the “there are no jobs” cry.

                    The “justice” would be to have those who take without returning anything to society (dole bludgers and DPB breeders) being forced (yes, forced) to work for the money they are given by the tax payer every week.

                    Those who want to succeed and are willing to put in the extra effort will do so, the rest will keep voting for corrupt left wing parties who promise the parasites the world but have no intention of ever doing a thing to take or encourage those parasites out of tax payer funded dependency.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      The “justice” would be to have those who take without returning anything to society (dole bludgers and DPB breeders) being forced (yes, forced) to work for the money they are given by the tax payer every week.

                      And that’s called slavery. So, we now know what BB wants – the return of slavery.

                    • RedLogix

                      Most of the extreme wealth being generated by the uber-wealthy is derived from minimally taxed capital gains or various forms of speculation, accounting fraud and tax evasion. As many authors have pointed out the monetary rewards these people amass (and for the most part then hoard) grotesquely exceeds any rational evaluation of their actual worth.

                      If were employing me and I was being paid $1,000/hr, yet I delivered only $200/hr of value you would be outraged and would promptly sack me. If you later found that I had faked my CV and lied to you about my qualifications and skills you would probably take the matter to Court. When the money involved comes directly out of your pocket you have no problem reaching this conclusion.

                      Yet when our ridiculously overpaid oligarchy class is takes vastly more money from our collective pockets indirectly, by manipulating their positions of economic privilege and power … you reach the opposite conclusion and tell us what wonderful people they are.

                      The contradiction is fascinating.

                    • xtasy

                      big bruv:
                      “Those who want to succeed and are willing to put in the extra effort will do so, the rest will keep voting for corrupt left wing parties who promise the parasites the world but have no intention of ever doing a thing to take or encourage those parasites out of tax payer funded dependency.”

                      So “the left” are corrupt, when it comes to parties that are considered to be on “the left”?

                      Hmm, that is bizarre. One such party would be the “Greens”, and to my impression and that of many others, they are the least corrupt, most transparent and honest lot sitting in Parliament at present.

                      Is your likely preferred Prime Minister any less “corrupt”?

                      I presume you have just shot yourself in the foot with such one sided dumb comments.

                      As for your likening of unemployed and DPB welfare payment recipients to parasites, you expose yourself as a right wing extremist of the worst kind. You believe in some form of forced labour it seems, and you probably would re-introduce poor houses and working houses where poor have to work to pay for being allowed to live and get very basic housing and food.

                      Go and take another hike, mate, a great tax hike, on top of what I suggested already.

                • Arfamo

                  And what about those members of the community who do not want to pull their weight?
                  – – – – – – – – – – –
                  Some of them already have backbench MP’s and CEO’s jobs.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  And what about those members of the community who do not want to pull their weight?

                  The 1% at the top? They need to be taxed more.

                  • big bruv

                    The ones who already pay most of the tax?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      They’re the ones not paying the tax that they’re supposed to be paying. Otherwise known as free-loading and theft.

            • xtasy 16.2.1.3.1.3

              big bruv – I have met people like you. Yes, those that inherently have a dim view of everyone else, because those others they may not be as “competitive”, “virtuous”, “efficient”, “hard working” or whatever else, they will never find “community”, as community is something you will only find and experience when you learn to SHARE, and when you are open and willing to TALK with others, even those that may have a very different view to you.

              Community is for instance practiced by Christians, who believe in sharing and caring, and similarly some other religions, same as differently socially organised people.

              It is a sad predicament for those, that are the perfect performers and the highly successful in competitive societies, which are naturally favoured by capitalist systems with no social conscience. They will perhaps earn a lot, afford a lot, achieve a lot, but will have very few friends and find little true happiness.

              Perhaps give that some thought, before you drop in an early grave, due to burnout and a heart attack or whatever else. There is more to life, I must say, and that does not mean, that people who realise that, who may work “only” 30 or 40 hours a week, are any less “worth” as human beings.

              There is a world and society out there to discover, if you want to try.

              • big bruv

                Xtasy

                Thank you for your sanctimonious rant.

                I have met people like you. Bitter and twisted individuals who hate their working life. You spend all day seething with jealousy because others have what you do not.
                Not once have you ever done something to better yourself, not once did you take some of your incredibly valuable social time and spend it finding ways of improving your lot in life or seeking out knowledge to make yourself more attractive to employers.

                Rather you are the type who sit in working mens clubs or public bars and moan about the “state” not doing enough for those who are idle. Of course what you refuse to admit is that it is not the “state” who you think should be shelling out cash to parasites, what you really want is for the “state” to steal more money from those who have earned it and hand it over (in return for left wing votes) to those who make no contribution at all to society or the “community”.

                Perhaps you would be best to take your own advice, work harder, perhaps get to the stage where you hire some staff. Take my advice though and avoid anybody who has left wing tendencies, they tend to be the ones who will be clock watchers and slackers, they are the ones who will demand a pay or wage increase for nothing in return.

                If you do well then you can look forward to paying a lot more in tax, you can look forward to others who have done nothing with their life demanding that you shell out more simply because they find it easier to steal from you than to earn it themselves. Of course there is also the very real prospect that you may bloody well love what you do, you may wake every Monday morning ( if you restrict yourself to a Mon-Fri business) and think “great, I cannot wait to get to work”.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  …or seeking out knowledge to make yourself more attractive to employers.

                  I seek knowledge to help the community – not to make myself more attractive to employers. Part of the the knowledge that I’ve learned is how employers are thieving from the workers (dead weight loss of profit) and are thus detrimental to society.

                  what you really want is for the “state” to steal more money from those who have earned it

                  Most of the people with wealth haven’t “earned it” – they’ve stolen it through the capitalist system, inherited it after it’s been stolen or won lotto. There really is only one way to get rich and that is to be in a position to take from the many as you describe (owning a business puts you in a position to take). This government, with it’s focus on lowering wages, is trying to increase that take.

                  • big bruv

                    Draco

                    Man I feel sorry for you. If you really hold that view then you are destined to be one of life’s losers.

                    There are countless business people out there who have made lots of money despite the efforts of people like you. They have done so by taking a risk, working hard and often in the early days paying themselves just enough to keep the wolf from the door while making sure that their staff are paid every week.

                    There are very few business people who are not deserved of their wealth, they got it through their own efforts and via hard work.

                    You might want to give a crack one day instead of being one of those parasites who want what others have without putting in the effort.

                    • RedLogix

                      There are very few business people who are not deserved of their wealth, they got it through their own efforts and via hard work.

                      My oldest and closest friend for more than 40 years now is a lawyer. He would thoroughly disabuse you of that notion. Truly.

                      I might expand on this a bit. The kind of SME business person you describe is by and large not the person we are talking about. They often work hard and are rewarded commensurately if they are fortunate. Personally I’m in much the same position myself.

                      An unrestrained ‘free’ market system however rewards those with economic power with more economic power, allowing a tiny minority of people to accumulate immense market power and privilege … enormously beyond any rational evaluation of their real value. These are the oligarchs who exploit the fault-lines and blind-spots of capitalism to steal trillions of dollars from the rest of us and have nothing in common with the rest of us.

                    • KJT

                      There are countless business people out there who make lots of money, because,

                      they inherited it from Dad,
                      got a high paid paper shuffling job because of their mates from private school or university,
                      gambled with other peoples money and clipped the ticket both ways,
                      kept their heads down and arse up in a corporation,
                      put their money into financial ponzi schemes which have been bailed out by the rest of us,
                      asset stripped and shut down good businesses,
                      become managers of monopolies,
                      Etc.

                      A very few are the entrepreneurs and risk takers you describe. Most of these are struggling as big business and the above parasites strip mine the economy and remove opportunities.

                      And. You fucking right wing parasite, who wants to use New Zealand’s resources built up by generations of tax payers, without paying your share of the costs. How come you are paying less tax than me. Tax avoidance?

                    • xtasy

                      big bruv: You suffer from a phobia, I detect. In almost every second comment from you I read so much about “parasites”. It appears quite clearly that you feel to be surrounded by “parasites”, who want to eat away on you.

                      It must be stressful living under such anxiety!

                      Go and see a counsellor, perhaps, phobic illness can be treated. There is also a Phobic Trust out in St Luke’s in Auckland, if you live there.

                      Good luck!

                • RedLogix

                  BB,

                  You’re trapped in a job you probably hate paying what you see as huge amounts of tax to support other people whom you mis-characterise as ‘layabouts and breeders’.

                  You see their life as one long lazy Sunday afternoon having non-stop sex, while yours is a miserable 70hr workaholics grind.

                  Of course envy is the explanation that’s on top of your mind.

                  • big bruv

                    Oh come on now Redlogix.

                    Take your medicine like an adult and come back to the real issues here. There is no need to make stuff up (although I do accept that the left live in a fantasy world where they do have to invent stuff because the truth does not suit their lies)

                    I happen to love what I do, in the past I have worked in jobs that were not as enjoyable and instead of moaning about it and voting for the left I spent my spare time making myself more employable to the market place.The result is that I now have a job I love and that I happen to be very, very good at.

                    As for the amount of tax I pay, well that might be the only thing you have got right today. I despise paying it, as far as I am concerned it is stolen from me by the government of the day and most of it is wasted on bludgers.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I despise paying it, as far as I am concerned it is stolen from me by the government of the day and most of it is wasted on bludgers.

                      And that would make you wrong.

                      Taxes are payment for services rendered – if you don’t want the services then leave. I hear that Somalia doesn’t have them.

                      The bludgers are the top 1% who don’t pay the taxes that they should and also get huge payouts in corporate welfare – like the Warner Bros deal where this government gave away millions that they didn’t have to.

                    • RedLogix

                      Take your medicine like an adult and come back to the real issues here. There is no need to make stuff up

                      You feel free to “make stuff up” about me, so why so touchy when I return the favour?

                      Or are you just keen on dishing it out, but not so good at receiving it? Very familiar behaviour.

                    • xtasy

                      big bruv:

                      I know there are full time prostitutes, part time prostitutes and even extra plus overtime prostitutes (“working” 70 or more hours a week).

                      Some are happy to “groom” and prepare themselves well – for making themselves appeal more – to their “clients” (or “employer”), even in their spare time.

                      Yes, people make life choices, you are right.

                • xtasy

                  “Not once have you ever done something to better yourself, not once did you take some of your incredibly valuable social time and spend it finding ways of improving your lot in life or seeking out knowledge to make yourself more attractive to employers.”

                  WOW! Talk about being “sanctimonious” or rather down right ARROGANT and downputting, you are the best example of the kind of person you call me.

                  How the hell do you even know me? By reading a couple of comments on your idiotic rant here? You are inviting critism, because your arrogant attitude justifies solid, robust and hitting criticism!

                  And I am certainly not one sitting in public bars or other establishments, as you believe.

                  I have much better things to do, and I spent a heck of a lot of time improving my skills and knowledge, not just for various demanding employment I have held, but also for my personal interests by expanding my knowledge on various subjects, including economics, history, social and other matters, including also science and research.

                  Also have I over recent years spent a fair amount of time on helping others in dire living situations, even taking matters to institutions that are supposed to assisst and support people.

                  You are indeed a very lonely soul, like so many in modern, urbanised NZ, so pre-occupied with keeping on top and being in front in the rat-race, and hating all that try to undo your agendas, that you perceive also as not keeping up with the pace and worse.

                  I was trying to explain to you the meaning and benefits of a “community”, but you come with biased, nonsensical abuse of “the state”.

                  “Take my advice though and avoid anybody who has left wing tendencies, they tend to be the ones who will be clock watchers and slackers, they are the ones who will demand a pay or wage increase for nothing in return.”

                  Yes and that is just another exposing comment by you, you apparently HATE people that want communal spirit, effort and social interaction, as you want to be ALONE on top and keep others you disagree with away. Sadly you cannot evict us from your country, mate, eventhough that may be what you right-wing extremists one day want to aspire to.

                  By the way, there is no country in the world, that has succeeded with blunt, primitive egotism, division and ruthless capitalism. Smart government and a smart, unifying system is working better, and even such that you may think of, those countries still usually make some efforts to look after the not so fortunate, that is “developed” countries. You though would love to work in a 3rd World country of sorts like some in Latin America, Africa or parts of Asia, where only an elite lives in decent conditions, and others are mere serfs to do the dirty and hard work for business people like you.

                  Having worked in a number of countries, I must regrettably say, that many NZ bosses are quite poor managers, and they off-load their ill feelings and frustrations on their staff, as they do not know any better to deal with challenges. Pschopaths is what I call many employers in NZ (particularly small scale ones), as they are control freaks, can only manage by instilling fear and paying staff shit pay for shit conditions. Thanfully there are better ones also, but I have had enough experience to comment on this.

                  Hating people for political orientation is a bit like homophobia and what else there is. You do appear to have real issues with real facts of life, and with social cohesion, and one can only hope that life will teach you better eventually, that is if you are willing to learn and open up your mind and heart.

                  As you cannot bear not working, you also seem to be a workaholic. Is there any self-help group offering a 12-step program for you? I can only hope so.

        • xtasy 16.2.1.4

          big bruv

          What hypothetical nonsense is this?

          Who says a person paying 40 k in tax necessarily works 70 hours a week? Some earn that getting others do the dirty work, while they sit at home entertaining hostesses, swimming in the pool, having champagne breakfasts and yawn and moan about the suckers out there not allowing them to profit more, doing f*** all.

          • big bruv 16.2.1.4.1

            Ha ha…do you really think that those who earn $160,000 a year life their life doing such things?

            Come to think of it you know damn well that is not the case. It is just easier for you to continue with that blatant lie because it suits your political leanings.

            • felix 16.2.1.4.1.1

              Poor wee fella.

              I know why you’re upset.

              • big bruv

                Come on Felix, let me in on the secret.

                Is it that I might have a spare $50,000-$1,000,000 sitting in a New York bank account that I have forgotten about?

                Or might it be that I have a home in Herne Bay where I sit eating oysters and drinking a cheeky Pinot of a weekend whilst plotting the downfall of my parties leader?

                • felix

                  Nah, it’s because everyone you worship is going to get a tax cut while you still don’t have a job.

                  • big bruv

                    If that were the case Felix then I would be in the same boat as you.

                    Tell me, what do you do to fill in your day whilst waiting for the next handout from the tax payer?

                    • felix

                      lolz, you’d be wrong about that bruv.

                      Your self-loathing is back, and you’re spiralling into fantasy in an attempt to mitigate it.

                      It doesn’t work, bruv, but I can help. I accept you as you are, and I want you to accept yourself as you are. Then I want you to quietly find one thing that you can do today, probably something by yourself to begin with, that allows you to feel a little peace and stillness.

                      When you achieve even a little bit of peace, and it might not be much, try to just sit quietly with that feeling for a few minutes.

                      That’s all for now. Do this again tomorrow, but don’t think about it too much until then.

                    • KJT

                      I think you will find that most of those on here, earn more than you!

                      And the ones that don’t earn less from choice. They chose to be useful in jobs, such as teaching, where the pay is much less, but the job satisfaction is greater.

                    • felix

                      Quite likely KJT, but there are bound to be plenty of others like bruv who are dependent on the state, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

                      In our society you don’t lose your right to speak up just because you’ve fallen on hard times.

            • xtasy 16.2.1.4.1.2

              big bruv:

              On that kind of basis then, how can you make your claims and justify them then that people on $ 214 a week on an unemployment benefit, or at $ 293 a week on a sole parent benefit (looking after at least 1 child), are living lives of leisure, comfort and like “parasites” then?

              Ok, they may get a bit more for accommodation, but when rents in Auckland are higher than just the base rate for a benefit, how do you think these people are supposed to manage and survive, while you dare to claim they are “not pulling their weight”?

              The minimum wage is $ 13.75 or so, and full time jobs are hard to get, with in some cases thousands having applied for a few dozen simple supermarktet jobs.

              Youth rates are going to be re-introduced for those under 18, in some cases still applicable for those even aged 19.

              Yes, you are clearly a best friend of the sorts of Rodney Hide, I gather.

    • millsy 16.3

      Hi David.

      Read any Frederick Forsyth novels lately?

  16. DH 17

    This is pretty disgusting. Medium/high wage & salary earners have done extremely well out of this National govt. The majority haven’t just had a tax cut they’ve also had a massive cut in their mortgage repayments. Some 75% of borrowers had fixed interest mortgages back in ’08 and they were at 8-9%. By now they’d all be on floating at 5.5%

    Anyone with a $300k mortgage in ’08 has an extra $8000 in annual disposable income compared to 2008, that’s how much less they’re paying in interest at 5.5% instead of 8%. Add the tax cuts and you’re looking at what were effectively very large pay rises for that group. Homeowners of ’08 & earlier have also booked a very handsome tax-free capital gain on top of the extra cash they’ve been given. They certainly don’t deserve any more from the state, indeed WFF for starters should have been canned for anyone with an existing mortgage.

  17. big bruv 18

    WFF for families should be canned completely.

    It is simply unfair that those who have no more kids than they can afford are working to feed somebody else’s family, somebody who keeps having kids and yet screams poverty.

    • fender 18.1

      You sound over worked and cranky little ted, slow down before you blow a head gasket.

    • Draco T Bastard 18.2

      The thing about community is that it’s all about helping each other and not preventing others from doing well because you’re concerned about your own status.

      • Colonial Viper 18.2.1

        I trust BB will start complaining how unfair it is that people can no longer afford to raise a family and pay a mortgage on a single average wage.

        Before neoliberalism it was the norm.

        Stop blaming individuals for what is largely a societal and political economic problem mate.

      • big bruv 18.2.2

        Draco.

        You really should stop telling such blatant lies.

        • Draco T Bastard 18.2.2.1

          I’m not lying. I find telling lies to be irritating as you always have to produce new lies to cover the old lies. Far simpler just to tell the truth.

          There is someone lying though, to me it looks to be the National party – and you’ve bought into and propagate their lies.

          • big bruv 18.2.2.1.1

            Draco.

            Nobody is held back from doing well in NZ. I might agree with you had you been talking about the class system that thrives to this day in the UK however we are talking about life here in NZ.

            What does hold people back are the stupid 1970’s views that some on the left still hold. The ridiculous idea that all bosses are bastards and that all employers are out to make their staff work for slave wages.
            Of course there are other reasons (the Maori grievance industry being one but that is a topic for another day) but it is simply a lie to say that people are held back in NZ.

            • Draco T Bastard 18.2.2.1.1.1

              Nobody is held back from doing well in NZ.

              The vast majority are by the fact that the resources of the country are monopolised by the rich. This means that they don’t have access to the resources to make anything of themselves.

              The reason why the resources are so monopolised is to make a few people rich and to prevent everyone else from being independent of the rich. That is the reason for privatisation ans the selling of state assets.

              • big bruv

                Draco

                You do seem to be a bit brighter than your average knuckle dragging lefty so it is somewhat of a surprise that I see you write such utter rubbish like this.

                Why do you guys on the left feel you need to invent these corporate monsters when they do not exist?

                The partial sell off of state assets is not something that I support either Draco. If I had my way the government would sell them all. All of these so called state assets, all radio and TV stations, privatise the lot save for the army and the police.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Why do you guys on the left feel you need to invent these corporate monsters when they do not exist?

                  You really are living in a fantasy. All the evidence points to corporates and the people running them as pretty much inherently psychopathic.

                  If I had my way the government would sell them all. All of these so called state assets, all radio and TV stations, privatise the lot save for the army and the police.

                  And would thus bring about the absolute dependence on the rich that the capitalists want. Think about it. If you wanted a drink of water you’d have to go to the local monopoly and pay whatever they demanded – no collecting of rain water as that would be illegal. Similar would apply to everything. You daughter gets raped by a rich guy? Forget it – you won’t be able to afford justice.

                  We’ve had this system before, it was called feudalism and we had a long and bloody revolution to get rid of it. Unfortunately, as your words prove, it’s making a come back a long with the slavery that you so obviously want.

                • KJT

                  But of logical inconsistency there BB. Why should the State get out of everything ‘except’ police and military.
                  Why not them as well. Or is it you expect tax payers to pay to protect, “your property”.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Why do you guys on the left feel you need to invent these corporate monsters when they do not exist?

                  Wealth is being extracted out of NZ at a massive rate BB. By the large corporates and their shareholders. Companies like Telecom and Contact, which should have been kept 100% NZ owned, are at the heart of the problem. Further privatisations and off-shoring will just worsen our balance of payments problem.

                • xtasy

                  big bruv:

                  Thanks, I sensed it all along.

                  The ideal society to you would be one that was under a dictator like General Pinochet in Chile from 1973 on for quite a few years after that!

                  Yes, you go even further. Slave or forced labour, selling ALL state owned institutions or assets, well, that will be an interesting society then.

                  Rarara commercial propaganda from the media all day, no criticism, no social services, no institutions offering free or subsidised health care either, I presume.

    • millsy 18.3

      If you went to a family whose ability to pay rent depends on WFF and said your crap, youll be on the floor looking for your teeth.

      But your used to that arent you. Tonga in 02 springs to mind…

  18. big bruv 19

    Draco T Bastard.

    The ones who are stealing are those who choose not to work and the [RL: Deleted.]

    If you were genuine in your desire to see that everybody paid their fair share then you would go after the following groups.

    1. Long term dole bludgers, no value at all to society.
    2. [RL: Deleted.]
    3. Unions. These corrupt organisations do not comply with company law nor do they pay their fair share of tax.
    4. Religious groups, why the hell do they get tax free status when they are often competing in the same world as honest businessmen.

    • big bruv 19.1

      Yahoo!

      Deletions. That always means that I am winning the argument.

      [RL: No it means you are being a sexist, offensive dickehead.]

      • big bruv 19.1.1

        No RL

        It means that you do not like the truth or the facts being pointed out.

        If the best you can come up with is the “you’re sexist” line then you have lost the argument.

        But hey, it’s your blog and if nothing else i respect private property and will play by the rules (as biased and one sided as they always are when one deals with the left) you set down.

        [RL: You complain too much. You have been perfectly at liberty to put your argument. And still are. I simply require that you refrain from using that specifically prerogative and sexist term. If however you feel that somehow you cannot express your argument without resort to being offensive, then I suggest that it is you who needs to re-think exactly what it is you are trying to say here.]

        • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1.1

          It means that you do not like the truth or the facts being pointed out.

          But they’re not truth or facts – they’re sexist lies.

        • big bruv 19.1.1.2

          RL

          Point taken.

          So, can you help me here. What term would be acceptable for the thousands of females who choose to keep having kids whilst they are on the DPB simply because they cannot be bothered finding a job?

          • felix 19.1.1.2.1

            The term is “fantasy”, bruv.

            • big bruv 19.1.1.2.1.1

              Felix..

              No..that does not quite grasp the extent or very real nature of the epidemic.

              But please try again…

              • One Tāne Huna

                What Felix is saying is that you have zero evidence of these women. Just because you’re too stupid and lazy to do a bit of fact checking doesn’t mean everyone else is too.

                • big bruv

                  Tane

                  Is that a bit like dear ex corrupt leader saying there is no underclass?

                  We all knew she was telling lies just as we all know that you are doing the same.

                  These parasites exist, you know it and so do I. All I am seeking is a politically acceptable term that I can use to describe them here on this blog.

                  Of course I will go on describing them as what they actually are on other blogs I just need to find a word that I can use here.

                  Come on Tane, help a mate out.

                  • felix

                    bruv, if you can’t find the words to describe your thoughts without being offensive that’s no-one’s problem but your own.

                    Take some personal responsibility for the limits of your vocabulary please.

                  • One Tāne Huna

                    Put up or shut up, hypocrite.

                  • prism

                    big bruv
                    You seem to hate mothers, or despise the vast majority of them. Yet you are the issue of a mother. Maybe she didn’t do a very good job of loving you and showing you how to love others, perhaps she neglected you, or spoilt you so that your world view has you in the CENTRE, in the centre, in the… Perhaps she left you being a sad little lump spotlighted on a lonely, empty stage. I’m sorry for your treatment, but don’t take it out on mothers in general.

                    • KJT

                      Never mind. BB will be one of the first in line to take his share of super.

                      Paid for by the efforts of those same children.

          • fender 19.1.1.2.2

            You go on about how tough you are doing 70+ hours per week, that’s only 10 hours a day, harden up! These ‘lazy mothers’ you invent will typically work 18 hour days raising kids.

            Have you ever been able to fool anyone into thinking you are trustworthy enough to look after children in order to learn it’s not the holiday camp you imagine? (I wouldn’t trust you near kids, you sound revolting through and through)

            • felix 19.1.1.2.2.1

              Bit of a sensitive subject for bruv I think. There’s a reason he lashes out on blogs at single women with children.

            • KJT 19.1.1.2.2.2

              Amazing how many paper shufflers pride themselves in their long working hours.

              Often, I have observed, because of poor time management, poor management skills and make work tasks they set themselves to look busy.

              When half those hours at a real job, like Teaching, motherhood or building, where you have to do actual productive work in those hours, would be too much for them

          • KJT 19.1.1.2.3

            If you look at the statistics, there cannot be thousands doing that, but if you were really worried about it you would be keen on giving them better options. Like decent wages!

    • Draco T Bastard 19.2

      The ones who are stealing are those who choose not to work and the DPB breeders.

      [RL: I’ve deleted BB’s ‘breeder’ remarks. They’re sexist and frankly offensive.]

      There’s a few people who choose not to work. I’m not particularly concerned about them because they’ll eventually get bored and look for something to do. As for the “DPB Breeders” well,
      The myths – and lies – about the Domestic Purposes Benefit, you’ve bought into the lies – as you’ve been told before.

      If you were genuine in your desire to see that everybody paid their fair share then you would go after the following groups.

      No I wouldn’t, I would go after the bigger crims – that would be the top 1%.

  19. big bruv 20

    KJT

    So far I have chosen to ignore you because…well frankly you’re an idiot.

    However, this little gem just could not go unanswered.

    “And the ones that don’t earn less from choice. They chose to be useful in jobs, such as teaching, where the pay is much less, but the job satisfaction is greater.”

    How can you say that the teaching “profession” is a useful job when they have a failure rate of one in five?

    Imagine that failure rate if you were a surgeon?
    Imagine that failure rate if you were a pilot?
    Imagine that failure rate if you were a bus driver?

    Now please KJT, go and play in the garden, the adults are chatting.

    • felix 20.1

      So if we sack one in five teachers, problem solved.

      Right?

      What’s the failure rate of the police force in your dimension?

      • big bruv 20.1.1

        Felix,

        Don’t sack them. Just allow the market to reward the good ones (hell you may well entice the really good once back into the teaching “profession”) with higher wages.The crap ones will then just find themselves without work.

        Take politics out of education, redraft the curriculum to remove the left wing propaganda and get back to basics. If you did this then there may well be no need for charter schools (which are a great idea and something that will improve the shocking one in five failure rate of our current education system)

        • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1.1

          The market doesn’t work bb, that’s what we’ve all been telling you and everyone else. We have proof of that in the GFC, Telecoms profits and the increasing poverty. You just don’t want to believe what your eyes are telling you. You see the poverty and call the people bludgers rather than look to the cause of the poverty which is the parasitical rich.

          • big bruv 20.1.1.1.1

            Draco.

            Just because you keep telling the same old story does not make it true. I see people who had become so used to being told that they were going to get everything for nothing (largely the fault of both left and right wing governments) that they started to demand the “right” to own property when anybody with half a brain cell (rules out Frank) could see that nobody has a “right” to own property.

            The GFC came about because of a number of reasons however by far the biggest contributing factor was the Clinton instigated repeal of Glass–Steagall and the Clinton desire to see bus boys owning four of five houses.

            But hey…don’t stop spinning those lies.

            • Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1.1.1

              The GFC came about because of a number of reasons however by far the biggest contributing factor was the Clinton instigated repeal of Glass–Steagall and the Clinton desire to see bus boys owning four of five houses.

              So, the US, and to a lesser extent, NZ, is run on behalf of banks and large corporations.

              Glad you just cottoned on. You notice how the Obama White House has been full of Goldman Sachs alumni?

              Perhaps you’re starting to cotton on mate.

            • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1.1.1.2

              I see people who had become so used to being told that they were going to get everything for nothing…

              The only people I’ve met like that vote for Act or National. Unfortunately, the governments keep giving it to them with state asset sales and massive subsidies from the government.

              The GFC came about because of a number of reasons however by far the biggest contributing factor was the Clinton instigated repeal of Glass–Steagall and the Clinton desire to see bus boys owning four of five houses.

              Rewriting history again – the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed by the Clinton administration at the behest of the banks. To clarify, it was the banks that instigated the removal of Glass-Steagall – the same banks that then used the removal of those rules to crash the economy and get a massive bailout from the government.

        • felix 20.1.1.2

          *whoosh*

          bruv, if one-in-five kids is failing (taking your word for that just to humour you) then whoever taught them is a shite teacher.

          So we work out who taught that one and they get the sack. Whoever taught the other 4 kids gets to keep their job and gets a payrise.

          Simple.

          Same for the police. Looking at the crime stats you’d have to say the police have a massive failure rate, well beyond one in five.

          Same treatment applies. Every time a crime is committed, we work out who was on duty in the area and sack them.

          The rest get a payrise and we end up with a well educated crime-free society for no extra cost.

          • KJT 20.1.1.2.1

            Please can we do the same for politicians. Every time the jobless rate goes up, or median wages drop below Oz, for example.

        • KJT 20.1.1.3

          As paying grossly high wages has worked so well for business management quality, in NZ?

          Maybe we should try it with Teachers.

    • RedLogix 20.2

      BB,

      You have inadvertantly touched on why the so called ‘competitive market’ does not and cannot work for some tasks.

      Competition works well for narrow single dimension tasks, where everyone is doing exactly the same thing and the order of merit is easy to measure. Like running a 1500m race for instance.

      It fails when the task is complex, requires teamwork, the coordination of multiple skill-sets, and the real long-term outcome is not simple to measure. Like educating children for instance.

      Cooperation is a much more effective tool for these kinds of tasks. That is why surgeons take years of training by other people, mentoring and professional development from other people, need highly skilled and trained anaesthetists, theatre nurses, technical specialists, equipment and service vendors and the entire infrastructure of a hospital and health system in order to function at the level they do.

      The same applies for pilots and even bus drivers. Imagine their failure rates if they had to train themselves from scratch, build all their own equipment, and learn on the job from all their mistakes. Indeed if you look at the early history of medicine and aviation in particular, when these professions were still developing they had very high ‘failure’ rates.

      Even so patients still die and planes do crash. The only reason why they don’t do so more often is that these are still very specialised professions and we throw immense resources at them in order to make them 99.9% safe. (And why surgery and aviation are such big expensive businesses.)

      But we simply don’t throw a comparable resource at teaching children in order to ensure we achieve a comparably low failure rate. We fund our education system so that roughly 85% of children will be adequately served by it. Getting to the next 10% or would be disproportionately more difficult and expensive. Throw another 50% at our education budget and I’m sure we could serve 95% of children better than we do at present.

    • KJT 20.3

      http://kjt-kt.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/the-culture-of-entitlement.html

      “Welfare recipients “Culture of Entitlement”.

      Unintentional irony from individuals who are sitting on 100 thousand dollar pay rises, while their company tanks in the recession, salt their income away offshore to avoid taxes, prefer to spend on bidding up prices with unproductive speculation, expect taxpayer bailouts when their gambling fails, and ask for tax cuts while the deficit increases.”

      Hit a nerve, did I BB?

    • KJT 20.4

      I am in a similar position as a pilot, but with more responsibility. At present.

      However I was a lot more useful as a Teacher, even though I “earned” a lot less.

      Idiots like you are lucky there are people who will do necessary jobs such as Teaching, despite the miserable pay and conditions. And your disinclination to pay for them. A resource which you have and do use.

      I cannot comprehend why people like you even want to stay in New Zealand when your ideal low/no tax countries already exist. Somalia for instance.

  20. Dv 21

    How can you say that the teaching “profession” is a useful job when they have a failure rate of one in five?

    Source needed

    • One Tāne Huna 21.1

      Failure rate of one in five.

      Bollocks. Put up or shut up – just because you’re too stupid and/or lazy to check your facts doesn’t mean everyone is.

      Another wingnut parrot that’s been taught to squawk.

      Edit – should be in response to Big “Pieces of Eight!” Bruv.

  21. Frank 22

    [RL: Deleted.]

    • Draco T Bastard 22.1

      No need to promote violence.

      • fender 22.1.1

        Yes no need to wish violence towards Big Bruv (Little Ted), he inflicts plenty of abuse towards himself, his shriveled brain is testimony to the damage his misguided thoughts have caused.

    • big bruv 22.2

      Ahh……here at last we see the real knuckle dragging lefty in action.

      [RL: Deleted. When a moderator deletes something it is very bad manners to perpetuate it.]

      • millsy 22.2.1

        [RL: Deleted. As above.]

      • xtasy 22.2.2

        bif bruv:

        Please follow my advice, a few posts above: Consider seeing an anxiety counsellor or psychologist, you may find healing after all, accept things that are deep in your mind and that are suppressed, learn to accept the other side of yourself, and learn to appreciate others, and perhaps even make friends, which I have not heard you mention anything at all about.

  22. Colonial Viper 23

    General amnesties are great in concept, but if this is what we get as a result…

    • KJT 23.1

      I don’t know about that. Rather enjoying watching BB unknowingly showing what a selfish and unthinking dick he and his RWNJ cohorts are!

      http://kjt-kt.blogspot.co.nz/2012/08/the-wealth-creator-myth-stealing.html

      “After 35 years of tax cuts for the wealthy, asset sales, anti-union legislation, deregulation of banking/finance and wage and welfare cuts.

      We have;
      Huge capital losses to offshore bankers and profit takers.
      Growth well behind the OECD average.
      Increasing child poverty.
      Steeply rising prices. Especially for privatised utilities.
      Median wages are dropping while the wealthy get 17% annual increases.
      Billion dollar bailouts for financiers.
      Millions of dollars to reinstate previously privatised essential infrastructure.

      Anyone who still believes that giving the already wealthy more of our wealth is the answer is either seriously deluded, or venal. “”

  23. felix 24

    I tire of poking bruv, I’m going to the beach. Have a nice Easter Sunday everyone.

  24. BevanJS 25

    Bernard Hickey, economist?

    • Colonial Viper 25.1

      His career background is in financial journalism; I’m not sure what his formal education in economics is.

      • Draco T Bastard 25.1.1

        I don’t think he’s got one which is probably why he’s managed to tear himself away (slightly) from the orthodoxy.

  25. xtasy 26

    1st of April:

    “Vote John Key – because he “charmed” so well last time?!”

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