Thank You Canada!

Written By: - Date published: 8:50 am, November 11th, 2017 - 123 comments
Categories: capitalism, Economy, Globalisation, International - Tags: ,

So let me get this straight.

It may be that a Liberal led government has just saved us from the rabid capitalist desires of a Labour led government?

The spread of media reports are somewhat contradictory, but I’m taking it that the TPP is now dead, and that some media are simply running around parroting a corporate agenda that’s based on “wishful thinking”. I could, of course, have that completely wrong.

But here’s Trudeau from three days ago coming across as something somewhat less than a cheerleader.

 

So is the whole thing deferred, postponed or dead? I’m going with dead. (Though, this guy thinks it’s resurrected while these ones are opting for the idea of progress)

123 comments on “Thank You Canada!”

  1. Bearded Git 1

    The Liberals in Canada are pretty much the equivalent of Labour here Bill.

    • weka 1.1

      I think the point is about what a Labour Party should be.

    • I thought labour were neo liberals like the Canadians so… nothing has changed – one set of neo liberals wanting more for themselves stymie another set of neo liberals who had found enough for themselves in the deal.

    • cleangreen 1.3

      Correct Bearded Grit,

      I as a kiwi 23yr old kiwi I migrated to Cananda in 1968 when the federal government was (PC) ‘Progressive conservative’ not unlike the old type National party (which was somewhat ‘protective’ and certainly not like the (John Key type National Government) which is just a open door to corporate control caretaker government.

      The progressive conservatives under PC leader Robert Stanfield were somewhat very boring and very very staid and canada was a somewhat dull place for a newbee like me to live then and to this wide-eyed rebelliouus kiwi import I was regarded as a rebel in 1968 by even my workmates.

      Then – wham – wham – in June 1968 along came the youthful Pierre Trudeau who also was the rebellious type as the 1969 -70 era with ‘woodstock’ approached.

      He was an instant hit with me, and many many people, so he rollled over the old guard and canada soon entered the 21st century and became a new vibrant place to be that i still love but glad to be home in NZ where I was born.

      Justin is a pure mirror of his departed father and will be a strong leader as has dad was to us all.

      I hold a Canadian Citizenship now since 1976 am are very proud of Canada for sticking up for the people of the free world and against corporate entrapment.

      • Ed2 1.3.1

        & he very clearly said ” There is no free lunch”.

        [we already have a regular commenter here called Ed. Please choose a name that differentiates your comments from his. I’ve added ‘2’ to your name for this one. Thanks – weka]

  2. weka 2

    Have they’ve all gone home yet or are they’ve still taking?

  3. Antoine 3

    Don’t count your chickens. It’s now looking like Trudeau simply forgot to turn up to the meeting. We just have to wait and see whether it is on or off – and if on, in what form.

    A.

    • veutoviper 3.1

      Agreed. It is not dead until …

      The TPP negotiations have been a side issue to the main APEC meetings and APEC continues today in Da Nang but will be taken up with the heavyweight contenders hitting the stage – Trump and Putin.

      Tomorrow (Sunday 12 Nov) APEC leaders and others move to Manila in the Philippines for two days of the ASEAN Summit and related meetings, coinciding with celebration of the 50th Anniversary of the regional bloc of ASEAN.

      https://www.rappler.com/world/regions/asia-pacific/187750-asean-2017-summit-schedule

      There may be opportunity for further TPP discussion – if not at a multilateral level, certainly at a one to one bilateral level. Jacinda Ardern has a number of face to face meetings with other individual leaders scheduled, including with Trudeau.

  4. weka 4

    Also, Canada wants some better conditions for itself right? Rather than say walking away because the deal is fundamentally flawed?

    • Bill 4.1

      From the first link in the post….“Despite reports, there is no agreement in principle,” International Trade Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne tweeted. Agriculture Minister Lawrence MacAulay’s office also said no agreement in principle had been reached.

      Reuters reported Thursday that Japanese Economy Minister Toshimitsu Motegi had told reporters gathered at a TPP ministerial meeting in Vietnam that “they agree in principle.” Motegi was reportedly responding to questions about the outcome of that ministerial meeting.

      Depending on whether you want to equate “fundamental flaw” with (a lack of any) “agreement in principle”, then Canada has walked.

      My way of looking at it is that the flurry of contradictory media reports (and ministers of different countries publicly contradicting one another) stacks up to a fair indication it’s dead.

      If it was a simple matter of Canada seeking deferment, that would be an easy enough position for Canada to articulate, and an easy enough thing to report.

      • weka 4.1.1

        Yes, hard to know because of all the secrecy too. Fwiw, I took that it’s been left hanging in the sense that it could be resurrected next year and the whole process continued afresh. i.e. no stake in the heart yet.

        Re deferment, I was under the impression that this was framed as the sign or die meeting, but I don’t know why. I’m guessing to force people to sign agreements they’re not happy with.

    • tracey 4.2

      It is being reported that Canada wants protection for culture etc. I haven\t yet read they are unhappy with any watered down ISDS clause. I mention that because Canadian and US Corps are they ones that have the history of suing governments and a watered down ISDS might not make the Canadian businesses happy?

  5. Sparky 5

    Yes pancakes and maple syrup for lunch today. Canada saved us (hopefully) from right wing Labours TPP negotiations…..

    Lets hope in the next three years more leftist parties come into being so we have more voting choices…..

  6. Siobhan 7

    Maybe Trudeau was too busy at home defending his finance minister, Bill Morneau, and fundraiser Stephen Bronfman, what with the Paradise papers leaving ink marks on everyone’s fingers…

    • tracey 7.1

      It does seem VERY odd that this is anything other than Canada throwing its weight around to get last minute concessions. It is the 2nd biggest economy in the mix behind Japan and does a leader really misunderstand that he is required at a signing?

      • Karen 7.1.1

        My understanding is that Canada always wanted to delay the signing of TPP11 until the negotiations they are having with USA and Mexico about NAFTA had been resolved. (Sorry – can’t remember where I read that now but it was an overseas publication before talks had started).

        Japan was pushing strongly for a resolution this week because it wanted to strengthen its position before APEC but Canada was saying there was no need to sign this week. They still had issues that they wanted resolved. Trudeau and Abe had talks in the afternoon and obviously couldn’t agree so Trudeau pulled out. To suggest he forgot there was a meeting is ludicrous.

        Hopefully it will now be declared dead and we can get it buried.

  7. Sanctuary 8

    The Canadians were never going to allow open competition in agriculture, the idea that the TPPA was ever going to be signed was more a figment of NZ’s hard line neolib diplomats and pro-free trade media’s imagination than grounded in any facts.

  8. millsy 9

    It’s not over yet. As much as I wish they would just leave it, they won’t. Nevermind that his will just jack up costs for ordinary people.

  9. greywarshark 10

    The ‘clips’ on the vid window – I look at the pictures of the women before and after make-up and hairpieces and think that is a representation of the National Party.
    Not content with being ordinary hard-working pollies in crumpled suits and rumpled brows doing the best for NZ, they get their advisors to flossy up all the figures – physical as well as mathematical, put them out to the eager and compliant media (so distraught at Winston Peters attempted overview of their sources).

    Instead I choose to listen to a master of words, thoughts and emotions and hear once again Leonard Cohen You Got me Singing.

    Because Trudeau you have got me singing, just quietly but happily for the present.

  10. cleangreen 11

    Hi all,

    Maybe as a Canadian/kiwi perhaps I may shed some light on this debarkle now.

    Weka is trying to make sence and suggesting a TPP 10 or 1, and others are confused about whether PM Trudeu knew whether he had to turn up to sign or forgot to attend.

    My my side the whole TPP 11 thing was very flimsily put together here, and as for the promised labour lead government pledge to be “transperant and open”– they (Labour) havn’t even given us the text of what is in the ISDS and any changes they made so we are really just shooting blanks for wasting time.

    My years of living in Canada taught me much about the ‘French Canadian’ mindset of which Justin comes from.

    They deal very hard for their rights above any other people I have met, and gained by respect so we should leave the PM of Canada to sort his own house out before we try to express our beliefs because this is an insult to the French Canadian who are a fine fiercely proud people.

  11. Colonial Viper 12

    Trump wanted the no-borders-globalist-written TPP sunk once and for all, and will have got Trudeau to sink it as part of their ongoing NAFTA negotiations.

    • Bill 12.1

      Hello there CV.

      You think presenting your opinion or speculation as hard and fast fact is the way to go?

      • Colonial Viper 12.1.1

        Quite happy to parse my comments differently if required.

        73% of Canada’s exports go to the United States of America (2009). In terms of priorities, I’d say that Trudeau knows exactly which side of his bread his buttered.

        It is a matter of record that Trump regards the TPP as a job destroying globalist scam; he pulled the USA out of the agreement as one of his top priorities upon taking the Oval.

        Further, I am not the only one with a similar opinion on Canada’s TPP moves and NAFTA:

        Once the headlines faded, the strategic calculation behind why the prime minister [Trudeau] decided to slow things down came into sharp focus: jumping quickly into that trade deal would have weakened Canada’s hand in renegotiating NAFTA with an even harder-nosed Trump administration.

        http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-embrace-of-tpp-could-hurt-tough-nafta-talks-with-trump-experts-1.3672686

        • Bill 12.1.1.1

          Not required CV.

          But bald assertions are probably going to result in….’difficulties’, no?

          That article you linked to has opinion from sources that some may want to factor into their thoughts. TPP and NAFTA tie-ins don’t seem unreasonable, but “will have got” (which does imply puppetry as per your original comment) just doesn’t come into the picture at all.

          • Sam aka clump 12.1.1.1.1

            This coming from the guy who thinks credit cards don’t work the way they do for every one on the planet who has ever applied for one.

            [Guessing that’s a reference to your reckonings that everyone has access to some thousands of dollars at some point in their life. Which is utterly irrelevant to this thread. And is also, by insinuation, an attempt to dismiss an opinion and a person by attaching them and their opinion to some ludicrous and fabricated “fact” about them and/or what they think. Happens too frequently. And my tolerance for it is going to hover somewhere around the points of “none” and “zero”. This is your warning. It’s the only one you’ll be getting. Don’t do it again.] – Bill

        • veutoviper 12.1.1.2

          + 1. Exactly, CV.

        • tracey 12.1.1.3

          The link does not state as categorically as you have that Trump got trudeau to…

    • tracey 12.2

      Trudeau as Trump’s puppet? Any links?

      • Colonial Viper 12.2.1

        There was no implication in my comment that Trudeau was Trump’s puppet. These are tough trade negotiations between nation states.

        • cleangreen 12.2.1.1

          Thanks CV.

          Yes my point was exactly the same that French Canadians by my past knowledge & history, deal hard for their rights as we expect the same from our government also, which on face is weak unless we see the ‘changes’ Parker says they managed to change in the ISDS.

          Without seeing any changes there we should walk away.

          quote; string #11/
          “They deal very hard for their rights above any other people I have met,”

        • tracey 12.2.1.2

          You asserted that Trump would have got Trudeau to sink it. Links?

          • Bill 12.2.1.2.1

            He got carried away, innit?

            And we can all know that, roll our eyes, point it out and carry on, or turn an entire sub-thread into a fairly pointless broken record stuck on a one word chorus line. 😉

    • millsy 12.3

      Welcome back CV. The place hasnt been the same without you. Had to follow your Twitter feed.

  12. weka 13

    Looks like it’s still going. Commentary and suggestions for action from Jane Kelsey

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/11/11/breaking-help-kell-tppa-today-by-tweeting-pm-trudeau/

    • weka 13.1

      The Japanese PM Abe is now trying to pressure Canada to finalise the agreement whilst they are in Vietnam. Can you please help us in tweeting PM Trudeau, Canadian Trade Minister and the Canadian Foreign Minister.

      It will help to highlight Canada both in applauding them but also in ensuring that they maintain their current positions and to not bend under pressure from the other TPP countries.

      Canada refused to sign on at the last minute due to concerns around labour rights, Indigenous rights, cultural issues and gender equality.

      Asking them to maintain their position on the #TPP and put culture, indigenous rights, women’s rights, and labour rights ahead of corporate interests.

      To @JustinTrudeau @FP_Champagne @cafreeland

      FB might be a good idea too.

    • Bill 13.2

      If Trudeau is looking to secure the slice from the “pie of advantage” that the US abandoned, then he’ll do a last minute signing on the backs of “10 over a barrel”. And no amount of tweeting will make any difference to that.

      And there’s the million dollar question.

      Is Trudeau engaged in strategic negotiating, or genuinely backing off because of indigenous, labour and gender shortcomings in the proposition. (Or even, as pointed out above, keeping one eye firmly fixed on NAFTA and any likely repercussions signing up to the TPP might have on those negotiations?)

      I’m sticking with my “fragmented and contradictory reporting” = it all blew up. At least for now, or while I can 😉

      From bwaghorn’s link below – “Parker said there was now no chance of the deal being concluded at the Vietnam meeting, but he said officials would meet again in coming weeks to see whether an agreement could be revived.”

      • weka 13.2.1

        In other words everyone is contradicting each other and no-one knows what’s going on 😉

        It all blew up sounds good to me, even if it’s a delay rather than full blown death.

        I thought the Parker statement was interesting, but again, it’s one man’s opinion and I assume they’re all still in jostling for power in the negotiations mode and thus what they say and don’t say and how they frame it all is about that as much as anything.

        The value in tweeting, or FB, petitions, letter writing, marching etc, is that it keeps the numbers of citizens who are concerned visible. Doing those actions when new events are unfolding is important because it pushes back against the narrative that no-one cares or it’s a done deal or that people are powerless etc.

    • veutoviper 14.1

      Thanks for that link – and i suggest everyone here read it and listen to David Parker in the video.

      That was a realistic and non-egotistical statement of where things are at – unlike the fantasy egotistical spin we used to get from Tim Groser.

      Parker was saying as much as he could but as he says, he cannot go into real detail at this time as the negotiations, TPP11 agreement is not yet fully dead.

      • The Chairman 14.1.1

        Seeing as an agreement was reached, all parties involved would have known our position, thus I can’t see why the New Zealand public should be excluded from knowing what Labour were prepared to sign up too.

        Wasn’t Labour the party saying they’d be a more transparent Government?

        • tracey 14.1.1.1

          Only until elected 😉

          • The Chairman 14.1.1.1.1

            Lol.

            Does that also apply to the notion of not signing up unless they secured the changes they wanted, to now (after being elected) accepting some of what they wanted?

            • tracey 14.1.1.1.1.1

              Yup which is why the five bottom lines vanishrd so quickly once elected

              • Incognito

                If the deal, or any deal or (policy) decision for that matter, is good enough for Labour and this Labour-led Government why not be open, honest & transparent about it and share the results of proper independent analysis to bring the people (that’s us) alongside and on board with it? After all, NZ is a representative democracy, isn’t it?

              • srylands

                Being in Government carries the responsibility of, well, Government. You can’t carry your activism to trade negotiations.

                Canada may have killed things. But that aside, I am impressed by the Government’s approach to the TPP negotiation. Of course I am basing this on limited information. It is impossible for the Prime Minister to reveal what is really going on because of the confidentiality obligations of the participants.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Limited information, and your amygdala. Never forget your amygdala.

                • Tracey

                  You can carry your policy and promises to the electorate. Trade negotiations are undertaken on behal of the citizens of NZ and need to reflect the wishes of those who elected the govt. Crazy notions I know.

                • veutoviper

                  Srylands, I never thought I would say it to you as I usually disagree with your ideology, but well said.

                  I know that you and i have crossed paths in the past in the Wellington beltway and have work experience in the matters related to your comment, including the very longstanding and worldwide confidentiality obligations and protocols applying to such international negotiations (whether trade related or any of the myriad of other issues subject to such negotiations and agreements).

                  OTOH I also appreciate that for those who have no experience in these areas, it is hard to understand and accept the limitations on the public release of information (such as for example the intended negotiation positions intended and taken) required under these longstanding obligations and protocols.

    • ianmac 14.2

      Thanks BW. Well said in plain language. Thankyou David.
      “Not dead till its dead!” Yes.

  13. “Liberals” in North American are generally defined by their socially liberal position, accompanied by moderately left economics. They (until Bill Clinton, at least) were center left moderate social democrats – the opposite of the classical or neoliberal Laissez-faire economic definition that right wing Australians and Europeans correctly used to define themselves.

  14. piper 16

    Gift,Prime Minister True,how does the French spell his name.Canada.

  15. ianmac 17

    Have we ever, ever, had the Leader of the Opposition been afforded such frequent platforms for undermining a newly elected Government? English can speak freely on any topic and claim ownership of any progress.
    “English said most of the work had been done and a high-quality trade deal was “all but completed”.

    “Seeking changes opens the door to other countries seeking concessions, as we are now seeing, and jeopardises years of hard work and tense negotiations and an agreement with real benefits,” he said.”

    Naughty Labour for trying to improve NZ position. Tut tut!
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11943010

    • halfcrown 17.1

      I’ve noticed that, but then I thought it was me. The government has got to step in to ensure they are well and truly heard. Not this emphasising the negative everytime the MSM finds a minuscule item and then runs to National for their overinflated opinions.

    • greywarshark 17.2

      The steady hand on the tiller?

    • tracey 17.3

      Me too. When Key got in 2008 was he relegated behind the LOO so quickly. Interesting study for someone

    • srylands 17.4

      It is not just about the interests of New Zealand.

  16. cleangreen 18

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018621303

    Radio NZ News flash 3pm 11/11/17.

    Start

    The 11 nations involved have re-convened today to try to salvage the deal and have agreed to most of the deal but four provisions that have been ‘suspended’, the new agreement has been renamed “The comprehensive progressive pacific partnership agreement”.

    End.

    • ianmac 18.1

      Thanks cleangreen. David and Jacinda still in business then. (Unless Clever Bill wants to take over.)

      • The decrypter 18.1.1

        What has Nick smith to say about this?

        • Bill 18.1.1.1

          “Progressive” they say? Ah well, that’s all right then! Anything that’s ‘progressive’ can’t be bad innit? 🙄

          Anyway. Sounded like pretty low level stuff – “officials including Canadian representatives” in’t ministers.

          And sure, they’re saying it “lives”. But I’m reckoning Frankenstein’s monster had more life in it before the lightning hit 🙂

          Or, to put it another way.

        • Incognito 18.1.1.2

          No idea what Nick has to say and I frankly don’t care but to CPTPP I say WALLOP! What-a-ludicrous-load-of-poppycock.

      • cleangreen 18.1.2

        Thanks ianmac here’s what vernon said on Stuff.
        Still sems vague and flimsy again she wants to rush things and mistakes are made when this happens.

        This is the real worry here.

        “Parker said on contentious investor-state dispute resolution clauses, New Zealand had tried to get rid of them completely but was unsuccessful.”

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98790099/transpacific-partnership-11-trade-ministers-reach-deal-to-keep-deal-alive

        Trans-Pacific Partnership: 11 trade ministers reach deal to keep deal alive
        VERNON SMALL
        Last updated 14:50, November 11 2017
        Crisis talks among Trans Pacific Partnership ministers appear to have pulled the free trade pact back from the brink of collapse, although it still faces an uncertain future.

        Late on Friday Canada boycotted a meeting of leaders from the 11 nations involved, throwing the deal into disarray.

        But after trade ministers met, with Canada back at the table, New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern told reporters on Saturday that though “clarification” was still needed it was sill alive.

        She had the impression Canada was back on board: “We are in a more stable place than we were yesterday.”

        But she was still not clear why Canada had not shown at the leaders’ meeting.

        Trade Minister David Parker, who was part of the crisis meeting, said the text had been “stabilised” so there was a legal agreement about “just about all of it. The ‘just about’ could be important”.

        He said there were four provisions of the original TPP that were suspended and work needed to be done on those.

        The name of the agreement has also been changed from TPP to CPTPP – the comprehensive progressive TPP.

        Parker said it was the most comprehensive agreement when it came to labour laws, environmental standards and the right to regulate that there had ever been in a trade agreement.

        That included enforcement mechanisms that can in the end result in trade sanctions if parties breach those standards.

        Parker said on contentious investor-state dispute resolution clauses, New Zealand had tried to get rid of them completely but was unsuccessful.

        “We narrowed the scope of them and we have a side arrangement with Australia which means that 80 per cent of the foreign direct investment into New Zealand from TPP countries is not covered by ISDS clauses at all.”

        There were “a number of other bilateral arrangements in place” on ISDS that he could not yet talk about.

        “We have made substantial progress on ISDS clauses in just a matter of weeks.”

        Ardern said the CPTPP was a different one than the TPP before the United States withdrew.

        She added it was disappointing the Government only had two week to change what National could have tried to achieve had it negotiated differently.

        Parker said the suggestion Canada had problems was because Labour standards were not resolved was not right.

        That implied wrongly that New Zealand was not standing up and was not successful on labour standards.

        There was no plan at this stage for the CPTPP leaders to meet again at Apec.

        TPP opponent Auckland University law professor Jane Kelsey said she was “disappointed, but not surprised” the Labour government had endorsed the TPP, with the suspension of a limited range of items.

        • tracey 18.1.2.1

          Those bottom lines gone within just a few weeks ey?

          • cleangreen 18.1.2.1.1

            So yes tracey, sadly jacinda has really stuffed up here as she has used bad negociators here and they will leave it all on her plate to take the heat.
            She should have used Winston as he is the best most experienced and parker is a drip. What is she up to??? “lets do this”?????? not me thats for sure as my grandchildren will have no life with these ‘shotgun trade agreements’

            Bad call jacinda.

            • Tracey 18.1.2.1.1.1

              I cannot agree with your conclusion that Winston is not aware of the stance being taken.

  17. CHCOff 19

    A better set-up in relation to primary producers and the export issue, would be:

    ….

    Primary producers are given the option of ‘compensated price rebates’ in the form of slashed market interest rates to negative interest rates, for putting emphasis on high quality standards through out their production cycles, in supplying the local population with the highest standard array of produce which it can afford.

    The highest ‘compenstaed price rebates’ via negative interest rates are reserved for those producers who form their own indepedent trading associations through out their product chain, thus creating the back bone of competition for upholding standards in an expansive effect within the economy.

    These independent trading associations are then empowered through state apparatus to create their own export deals, within the new context of exports not just being driven by quantity in relation to economic debt cycles but in better balance to quality, specific brands, direct consumer demand and old fashioned no undercutting of standards (cultural & associated production) if you want to trade market economics – which thus has the effect of lifting up standards at the other end of trade deals also.

    • greywarshark 19.1

      That’s a possibility for consideration CHCOff I hope we get the chance to rework the wiring on primary.

      • CHCOff 19.1.1

        Yes, so say Primary based brand product involves 5 seperate work disciplines in it’s completion.

        If those disciplines are served by 5 independently organised groups in their production, then the process is eligible for 5 instances of ‘compensated price rebates’ in the production cycle. The tier of each ‘compensated price rebate’ given is determined by the level of standard that each trading group in the brand association is able to achieve.

        The standard levels for each discipline is set by all such independently organised ‘trading groups’ for each discipline nationwide. That way they are able to regulate themselves to make sure that they are not being under-cutted by competitors.

        The brand associations as i’m calling them here, that actually have proprietaryship over the final product, are therefore entitled to used what ever standards of the disciplines that they like in creating their products – the cost just receives less ‘compensated price rebate’ through out the process the lower they go in their standards of production relative to the product.

  18. Ovid 20

    Could this just be a negotiating tactic? If you demonstrate you’re prepared to walk, then other parties might be more ready to make concessions.

  19. Carolyn_Nth 21

    TPPA by any other name smells just as bad.

    • cleangreen 21.1

      Yes Carolyn; the ISDS is still intact with no changes from the old model so a name change is a smoke screen in reality.

      This is the real worry here.

      “Parker said on contentious investor-state dispute resolution clauses, New Zealand had tried to get rid of them completely but was unsuccessful.”

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98790099/transpacific-partnership-11-trade-ministers-reach-deal-to-keep-deal-alive

    • Bill 21.2

      Y’gotta laugh.

      Ardern says negotiations are still continuing over aspects of the Comprehensive Progressive Trans Pacific Partnership, or CPTPP as it is now known, but there was a “stabilised text” which could be worked on.

      What’s a “stabilised text”? And if it “could be worked on”, then aside from – what is it? – how stable is it anyway?

      Is it fair to assume that everything tanked, but they’ve scraped it off the floor and are hoping to be able to talk about some really basic stuff so they can all pretend to be friends aboard a rolling wagon again?

      • cleangreen 21.2.1

        Yes Bill,
        Here is my message to jacinda now.
        dear jacinda; TP 11 and onward.

        I want to know why we in NZ have got a Trade Minister who is so tight lipped while the Canadian counterpart is open to speaking for his people.

        Do we have a paper tiger in our trade minister who looks like he will not work with the NZ people as canada do with theirs?

        It is sad that is, Labour said they will be “transperant and open???

        Not here so Jacinda you need to move to work with us your people because your minister has not showed this.

        Jacinda here is the proof to work with us as canada does with withthere people on culture and other matters that will affect them.
        Quote;
        “Particularly when it comes to culture, when it comes to the auto sector, you’ll bet that we’ll take the time to consult with stakeholders to get the deal done,”

        https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-10-other-pacific-nations-agree-on-core-elements-of-new-trade-deal/article36911294/

        Globe & Mail. Canada.

        TPP-11
        Canada, 10 other Pacific nations agree on ‘core elements’ of new trade deal

        Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and other leaders take part in the APEC Leaders official photograph at the APEC Summit in Danang, Vietnam, on Friday, Nov. 10, 2017.
        ADRIAN WYLD/THE CANADIAN PRESS
        BILL CURRY
        OTTAWA
        4 HOURS AGONOVEMBER 10, 2017
        Canada and 10 other countries have reached an agreement on the “core elements” of a new Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal, but some contentious areas – including auto rules and cultural protections – have been set aside for further negotiations.
        The late-night deal was reached Friday on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum in Da Nang, Vietnam. It came just hours after Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was accused of blocking an agreement earlier in the day.
        The political drama included a scheduled meeting of TPP leaders that Mr. Trudeau did not attend. The meeting was ultimately cancelled, leading to international media reports that Canada had “screwed” its TPP allies after getting cold feet.
        Canadian Trade Minister François-Philippe Champagne dismissed the reports as a “misunderstanding” and said Canada took the time it needed to push for stronger environmental and labour protections.
        “This is Canada. We won’t settle for just any deal,” he told reporters Friday. “This is about making sure that Canada as a Pacific nation would have access to the markets in the Pacific region. This is also about setting the terms of trade in the region.”
        Mr. Champagne said any changes to trade rules affecting the auto sector – a major point of concern among North American auto makers and labour leaders – would be determined at a later date.
        “Particularly when it comes to culture, when it comes to the auto sector, you’ll bet that we’ll take the time to consult with stakeholders to get the deal done,” he told reporters.
        The TPP negotiations originally included the United States. A deal was signed in 2016 but it was never implemented, and U.S. President Donald Trump withdrew from the pact. He campaigned strongly against the plan, calling it “a continuing rape of our country” and “a disaster.”
        The challenge for Canada and Mexico at the TPP talks is that both countries are also in the midst of renegotiating the North American free-trade agreement with the U.S., so many of the same issues are in play at the separate negotiating tables.
        Mr. Trudeau had been singled out by Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe earlier in the day as the reason why a TPP deal had not already been reached in time for the meeting of TPP leaders.
        While APEC has 21 members, the 11 countries of the TPP are Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam.
        “Ministers are pleased to announce that they have agreed on the core elements of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership,” the countries said in a draft statement.
        The deal announced Friday removed 20 sections of the original TPP deal, including provisions related to pharmaceutical products, patent protection, copyright and intellectual property.
        Another section lists four categories as areas where “substantial progress was made but consensus must be achieved before signing”: the treatment of state-owned enterprises, services and investment, dispute settlement and culture.

      • cleangreen 21.2.2

        Bill again that point you made is good; What is “stabilised”

        I think these words are from the corporate dictonary for Corporate directors and Management folks as kiwirail CEO Peter reidy said in the HB Today a week ago that the Wairoa Napier mothballed rail line is still “Fluid”.

        Now doesnt the word “stabilised “and “Fluid” sound very similar when a Management individual picks these phoney vague words that leave our eyes rolling???

        This is gobbly gook meant to over rule the subject matter entirely and must be the new copeorate language to control us simple peasants. Tis is why I think this TPP is still sterred by the corporate controlled “consultants” they are using to hatch this latest attempt to ring fence all the countries of the pacific.

        • Sam aka clump 21.2.2.1

          There was the negotiated text which was placed in a room with a guard at the door (sometimes armed) that screened for recording or listening devices. I believe Jane Kelsey was at some point able to read from this negotiated text. So interested parties would look at the text, go back to the negotiating room to try and make changes, those changes that were agreed upon would eventually be placed back into the negotiating text. Rinse and repeat. This has been an ongoing thing now for 10 years. Even when the leaked versions stated coming out they too went through more changes.

          So a stable text is an end to the negotiated text phase. Now it’s a bit of a quip pro quo. You know? They’ve already dropped 4 provisions. I suspect the bit about not being able to change legislation around finance in the investment chapter is gone.

          The bit about businesses suing the government. Businesses can do that already. Even some one as politically disengaged as Teina Pora successfully sued the government. Until he got a government that was willing to listen that is. And just goes to show the huge difference in opinion in the present day government compared to the previous government.

          So the ISDS clause should be thought in the same way that National has no mates.

          • Tracey 21.2.2.1.1

            You are confusing issues by using Pora as an analogy.

            Companies outside of NZ have very limited ability to sue the NZGovt and less to make them reverse a policy- based law voted on by a majority of parliament. I may be wrong but await your list of examples of Non NZ based companies who have sued the NZ Govt and what they sued for

            • Sam aka clump 21.2.2.1.1.1

              Under National those with power and wealth could find solace in tax payer funded bail outs. That’s not really the case now is it.

              • Sam aka clump

                That’s all the ISDS things was. It was to lock in the bail outs of 2008 and beyond. Luckily some other schemers got in on it and pretty much exposed the whole thing for what it is. A rort.

              • Tracey

                No. You wrote, in the context of international trade negotiations and ISDS, ” The bit about businesses suing the government. Businesses can do that already. ”

                You need to cite examples of overseas businesses suing the NZ Govt other wise you are wrongly comparing Pora going through a legal process accorded all kiwis with granting a right, ISDS, to a business that does not already exist? Pora was also heard by a Judge, in an open Court… then his case reviewed by a Judge, then read by a Cabinet and dismissed. Again quite different to ISDS

                • Sam aka clump

                  Off the top of my head. Something about a Saudi businessman. I mean shit posts and comments like yours Tracy is why the standard is dangerous to the maximum brain power of New Zealand.

                  [Meh Had enough. Goodbye. 3 months should be long enough.] – Bill

                  • greywarshark

                    Thanks Bill
                    It is amazing how obtuse some of these new commenters are and from first entrance consider they are entitled to pass judgments and spread misinformation on everyone and everything, usually without any source that provides a good critique of the matter.

                    And in my opinion, 3 months isn’t long enough. Double it – might be.

  20. Drowsy M. Kram 22

    It’s difficult to keep up with our governments’ negotiating positions on the TPPA/TPPA-11/CPTPP, but “A pile of crap by any other name, would smell as crappy.” ‘They’ are treating us like “the gullibles”!

    “The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them.” – Ernest Hemingway

    • Incognito 22.1

      Ernest was right but what do you do when you find out they betrayed your trust?

      No matter what politicians (or their parties rather) do they get voted back in. The incumbents appear to have a huge advantage over newcomers. The Greens have never been in government and almost got wiped out from Parliament. TOP never made it. So, it seems that no matter what they do they won’t get punished but rewarded even!?

      Here’s an analogy: you like to go out for dinner and you check out a restaurant online. The website is slick and professionally made and the photos look welcoming & inviting. You make a reservation. The location is less than ideal and there’s no car park although this was claimed on the website. The inside is disappointing and nothing like the photos on the website. You get a table in a crappy place. You read the menu and order food and a bottle of wine. After a long wait, a mix up with the orders, you get your meal and it falls way short of expectations. The wine is no better either. To top it off, the service was lousy and the bill way too high. Now, here’s the question: would you go back, ever? And here’s the funny thing: many would indeed go back three years later expecting an improvement. And repeat it another three years later – human memory is short.

      There’s a word for this and it is not “gullibility” …

      • Drowsy M. Kram 22.1.1

        “Transient global amnesia is a sudden, temporary episode of memory loss that can’t be attributed to a more common neurological condition, such as epilepsy or stroke. During an episode of transient global amnesia, your recall of recent events simply vanishes, so you can’t remember where you are or how you got there.”

        Did Hemingway drink to forget?

    • greywarshark 22.2

      Ernest Hemingway was an alcoholic wasn’t he?

      • Drowsy M. Kram 22.2.1

        “As Goodwin points out probably one of the highest rates of alcoholism exists in Americans who were awarded the Nobel prize for literature.”

        • greywarshark 22.2.1.1

          Was Goodwin a real person or are you taking the p.ss?

          • Drowsy M. Kram 22.2.1.1.1

            Never touch the stuff myself, but the quoted Donald W. Goodwin is real.

            Don’t know anything about him, other than that he authored the 1970 paper “The alcoholism of F. Scott Fitzgerald” (JAMA 212: 86-90).

            Goodwin’s paper is referenced in the book “Diagnosis of Alcohol Abuse” (CRC Press, 1989), edited by Dr Ronald Ross Watson, another real person.

            https://publichealth.arizona.edu/directory/ronald-watson

            Now to Google Goodwin’s paper… found it!

            https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/353304

            • greywarshark 22.2.1.1.1.1

              Alcoholism the untouchable drug addiction? Tobacco kills for sure – slowly and generally quietly.

              Whereas alcohol is behind most non-natural tragedies??

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Most addictions have their tragic aspects, even ‘The Standard’ addiction (wouldn’t change it for the world).

                “We have lost confidence in reason because we have learned that man is chiefly a creature of habit and emotion.” – John Dewey

                • greywarshark

                  And that remark by JD is an emotional one too! Once that understanding was reasoned out, then reason would find a way to deal with the habit and emotion, get them on the table and then try a reasoned approach, then look to see whether that allowed for things that people cared for deeply, and then make sure these were added to the reasoned list. Not easy but if its done right naysayers can be pointed to the reasons why certain things were included or changed.

                  So snappy comments like Dewey’s only half state the case.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    The quote succinctly expresses one of Dewey’s beliefs – he was only (an emotional) human. Decades later, Twitter was born.

                    Snappy (in a non-pejorative sense) quotes often appeal to me, including (to paraphrase): ‘Snappy comments only half state the case.’

                    A favorite observation of political strategy is “If you can’t convince ’em, confuse ’em: if you can’t confuse ’em, scare ’em.” – Richard H. Leask

                    And this lengthy quote from Feynman is (for me) right up there:
                    “I think it’s much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything and there are many things I don’t know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we’re here. I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell.”

                    Half-truths, or at least honestly held beliefs, all.

                    • greywarshark

                      What I would like my purpose to be would be to introduce the practices of better problem solving. Relaxed criticism, like you have an idea, a feeling, but not rigidly. about most things. But for some things a reasoned stand. There is a lack of strength of opinion, it makes us so itsy-bitsy, wishy-washy and then too many beers bring on belligerence and mindless violence.

                      As to why we are here. If we are humble and realise how small and ineffectual we may be, yet capable everyday of creative things, I’d say just keep on with now and a short time into the future. And give money to buskers and fund raisers at the supermarket etc. Enjoy being people when you have the chance and let the great creator get on with bigger matters (unless you can bring off something smart and possibly be a bit devious).

                      I’ll have written this before but you may not have seen it. I like the
                      truth and humour.
                      “Our brains are not capable of comprehending the infinite so, instead, we ignore it and eat cheese on toast.”
                      ― Jonathan Cainer

  21. piper 23

    Gift,Prime Minister True,how does the French spell his name.Canada.

    Join the union,

  22. Craig H 24

    I read the update from the Prime Minister, and thought we had done quite well in the short time she has had, particularly with the improved labour standards and suspended provisions such as IP provisions.

    • cleangreen 24.1

      Craig,

      Have you got the text of the changes to all ‘provision’ as we still are left without any written alterations from the origional skimpy text that caused so much world wide concern?

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018621329

      Parker was qoted on the 11am radio NZ news that “all the latest TPP 11 model has ‘outlined’ all the obligations Labour sought during the Election”

      If this is true why has he not released the text of those changes by now?

      I and many others need to see the changes before we will trust any poitician, and since labour promised during the election also to be a “Government that is open & transperant” so why have they yet to filfill this promise also and provide written text of the changes he is taking credit for now, since he was at pains to tell us how Government have delivered promised changes in the TPP11.

      Suspicion mounts without “transperarancy.”

      Canada’s Government have provided more transperancy than NZ Government has so far.

      https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-10-other-pacific-nations-agree-on-core-elements-of-new-trade-deal/article36911294/

      Globe & Mail. Canada.

      TPP-11
      Canada, 10 other Pacific nations agree on ‘core elements’ of new trade deal

  23. greywarshark 25

    I did a trawl for basic figures on our economy yesterday so we can think about how well we have managed so far and possibly get an idea of how TPP will ‘improve’ our opportunities.

    I was amazed to see how little that primary production adds to our GDP.

    Overnight I have honed my view of NZ politics and see that it has been captured by this Fed Farmers group who are using propaganda and nostalgia about them being the basic foundation of our society. And further the really wealthy and pathologically wealth-addicted have used them as a spear to fire into the heart of NZ society to gain control for their interests.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/tpp11-close-to-being-signed/#comment-1412906

    • Craig H 25.1

      I think the issue commonly raised by Federated Farmers etc is that primary production is a large part of our exports.

  24. greywarshark 26

    Did you look up the link I provided to the information I put up? Your comment doesn’t add anything new to the discourse – it has been said for decades. I am saying that it looks as if it isn’t true, and hasn’t been for some time. Comment on that from you?

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