That federation campaign

110 comments on “That federation campaign ”

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1. DJ Ward 1

   24 January 2019 at 8:32 am

   Thank our lucky stars it’s just a piss take.

   I would vote agianst this move.
   We created NZ with the Treaty to protect ourselves from them.
   Like the US. Listen to the wisdom of our founders.
   Democracy would relegate us to a powerless minority.
   Maori would quickly be sidelined like Aboriginals.
   • OnceWasTim 1.1

     24 January 2019 at 8:37 am

     Yep, we’d become the new Tazzie or Norfolk Island in double quick time
     • RedLogix 1.1.1

       24 January 2019 at 10:16 am

       Yet in fact Tasmania is at the moment enjoying a resurgence. Property prices (as a proxy for economic activity and desirability) are holding firm against real declines on the mainland.

       Right now I’m in the same room with someone who has moved there some years back and is very positive about the place. He’s not the only one I’ve met.

       I worked there for a period in the late 80’s; I recall it as a rather charming cross between Victoria and New Zealand, combining the best of both. Due to it’s isolation Tasmania was a bit of a social backwater/hillbilly hell-hole up the early 80’s, but that period is long behind it.
       • OnceWasTim 1.1.1.1

         24 January 2019 at 10:25 am

         It is enjoying a resurgence no thanks to the Federales and both Tasmania and Norfolk Island have more in common with NZ culturally as do the P.Is

         I also know of a couple of ex-Wellingtin bus drivers who could see what a bugger’s muddle the big bang was going to be, and are now making a reasonable earn there.
         • greywarshark 1.1.1.1.1

           24 January 2019 at 10:35 am

           Tazzie – we would love to be a Tazzie. We had to get up at sun rise each morning and lick the outside of all three, four? Australian-owned banks with our tongues. /sarc …./sarc
           • OnceWasTim 1.1.1.1.1.1

             24 January 2019 at 11:36 am

             Of course @ grey. But if we federaloised going forward, the great WE could convince them to establish a TezzieBenk on the KoiwoiBenk model?. It’d be a win win.
             Who knows, at some point in the future they’d be able to come to terms with Port Arthur, and the Rolex sponsored. Seedney ta Bart yatshitting race.
             • RedLogix …

               24 January 2019 at 11:57 am

               Below the ‘big four’ banks, there is a thriving and active tier of regional banks … Bendigo Bank comes to mind … that retain a clear identity and purpose. Credit Unions are a lot more common as well.

               No reason at all why Kiwibank wouldn’t exist perfectly happily. If you don’t like giving your money to a bank headquartered in Australia, change banks. It’s quite easy really. I did some years ago and never looked back.
               • OnceWasTim …

                 24 January 2019 at 1:20 pm

                 I’d do likewise @ RL, singing the songs of Slim Dusty all along the way as Matilda and I asserted oursleves in ‘stereotypical’ fashion.
                 And then ,when I got to the Bendigo Branch it’d be “Ozzie Ozzie Oi Oi Oi, let me be free”

                 Fuck! Now I can’t get Slim Dusty out of my head
                 • RedLogix …

                   24 January 2019 at 1:31 pm

                   And just up the road a bit from Bendigo is this wonderful celebration of Aussie bogan culture and a rebellious spirit that has yet to be quite crushed:

                   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-29/deniliquin-ute-muster-still-going-strong-in-2018/10320524
               • Kevin …

                 24 January 2019 at 4:18 pm

                 KiwiBank are no different to the big four now. If you circumstances change they can be just as bigger cunts as the rest.
                 • WILD KATIPO …

                   24 January 2019 at 7:33 pm

                   This whole post is as ridiculous as this song.

                   The Ibis Song! (A Song About Birds) – YouTube
                   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sBXcZ0G_ls
     • Gabby 1.1.2

       24 January 2019 at 10:38 am

       It would certainly bugger up our application to become a Chinese province timbo.
       • OnceWasTim 1.1.2.1

         24 January 2019 at 10:58 am

         Not too dissimilar to an Aboriginal description of a Solar Eclipse”

         ‘Kerosene lamp bilong Jesus gone bugger-up’

         But then I guess that was from one of those “ignoble savages/lesser beings”
         • SHG 1.1.2.1.1

           24 January 2019 at 1:42 pm

           Australian Aboriginal people speak Papua New Guinea Tok Pisin now?
           • OnceWasTim 1.1.2.1.1.1

             24 January 2019 at 2:22 pm

             Apparently they do at SHG. And what’s even more amazing is they possibly even inhabited territory around Bendigo from time to time.
             Unfortunately a linguistics professor named Hammerstrom from Monash University is now long gone, but he spent a lot of time and research trying to document Australian aboriginal languages while my sister and I spent an equal amount of time babysitting the Aboriginal children he used to bring down to the big smoke for the school holidays.
             And not once did Hammerstrom and I engage in measuring the size of our cocks
   • solkta 1.2

     24 January 2019 at 8:51 am

     We created NZ with the Treaty to protect ourselves from them.

     Say what? The British used trick or treaty to gain sovereignty over Aotearoa. They already had ‘sovereignty’ over Australia as they had simply taken that under the legal construct of Terra Nullias (uninhabited land).
     • DJ Ward 1.2.1

       24 January 2019 at 9:09 am

       There is often a narrative developed over time seperate from the truth of what actually happened.

       You think the Maori of 1840 were stupid?
       Not sign the treaty and continue being part of Australia. How did that work out for the indigenous people there.
       The NZ settlers were also systematically being sidelined by the economic powerhouse that controlled us. They were just becoming renters etc.

       Why was it called a partnership?
       Who were the partners protecting themselves from?

       A: Australians.
       • RedLogix 1.2.1.1

         24 January 2019 at 9:33 am

         The full story revolves around the ToW in a quite different manner. The Australian Federal Constitution was written with the expectation that NZ would be a member. It remains a live provision that was never struck down.

         Up until around the early 1900’s when both nations became Dominions there was a great deal of movement and commerce between us both. At that point in time it was probably entirely possible for a full Federation with NZ to have been achieved. Indeed there was much goodwill and extensive negotiations in preparation were conducted.

         Unfortunately the two big sticking points came from big commercial interests on both sides, who have taken to seeing each other as competitors. Worse still some politically influential Australians couldn’t, or wouldn’t, get their heads around the notion that the ToW had established Maori as full citizens with full legal rights some 60 years earlier. In our modern eyes we can only regard this as deplorable.

         As a result the negotiations got put into the ‘get around to later’ basket, and here we are 115 years have passed and we’re further away from a Federation with our most important ally than ever before.
         • DJ Ward 1.2.1.1.1

           24 January 2019 at 10:30 am

           Amazing how how history can accidentally come to the correct outcome then.
           • RedLogix 1.2.1.1.1.1

             24 January 2019 at 10:34 am

             If you want to NZ to remain a client state of Australia, with no political accountability …
           • greywarshark 1.2.1.1.1.2

             24 January 2019 at 10:37 am

             DJWard
             LOL You are making some really good points lately.
           • Kevin 1.2.1.1.1.3

             25 January 2019 at 10:38 pm

             Not joining federation was a huge mistake. We got sucked into being a low wage corporate colony coz of our weakness whereas Australians have wages 25% higher than us …a better standard of living.
       • solkta 1.2.1.2

         24 January 2019 at 9:39 am

         There is often a narrative developed over time seperate from the truth of what actually happened.

         Yes we have had a lot of that in this country. Believe it or not some of us actually want an accurate version of history maintained.

         Not sign the treaty and continue being part of Australia.

         Aotearoa was never part of Australia as the British had no legal sovereignty here until the Treaty. The British presence here was administered from New South Wales for a time. Australia was taken under Terra Nullias as the Aboriginals were hunter gatherers who moved about and showed no obvious “ownership” of territory (they also weren’t really considered human). In contrast in Aotearoa tribal territory was clearly defined. As the British could not use Terra Nullias here the only legal options left to them were invasion or a treaty.

         The Treaty was not signed by settlers and many at the time would probably not have supported giving power to those they had come here to escape from.

         It is called a partnership because the Maori text gives sovereignty of Pakeha controlled areas to the British while preserving the sovereignty of Iwi over their respective tribal areas.
     • greywarshark 1.2.2

       24 January 2019 at 9:28 am

       solkta
       The Treaty counts for something and Maori have been able to lever a reluctant self-centred, amoral pakeha governance to pay some attention to it before it fell into tatters. There were good intentions for a time, from the British. Other Indigenous Nations would have one like it if they could.
       • OnceWasTim 1.2.2.1

         24 January 2019 at 10:40 am

         “There were good intentions for a time, from the British”
         There probably/definitely were, given pangs of conscience and white guilt all in the knowledge the savages were noble, as opposed to the ignoble.
         Probably comes down to the various personalities involved at the time. Other of Madge’s colonies aren’t quite so lucky even today.
         Which is not to say other former Empires weren’t just as condescending/pompous/born-to-rule at the time, just as emerging empires are today.
     • soddenleaf 1.2.3

       24 January 2019 at 4:05 pm

       Surely Australia was tamed, ick, and NZ being another sea journey and associated costs with the from untamed locals a different strategy was formed. Invite leaders over, show technological, over population, evil of empires, and suggest they just take these muskets sort out their shit and speak with one voice cos some European power will sort it out for them. Better the British being the biggest mana…..better they had something to offer, unity, consent, risk mitigation.

       Sovereignty was always the outcome, it was how Maori negotiated and managed the relationship being the smaller party. Look today at the country, farms from shore to shore, the way some Maori wanted to keep control of most land was never going to happen, not the French, not the Russians, not anyway would it ended up with Maori majority rule.

       Maori sighed up because they’d seen what was coming, and like their history they knew to get inside the tent.
   • Draco T Bastard 1.3

     24 January 2019 at 12:27 pm

     We created NZ with the Treaty to protect ourselves from them.

     Ah, no – it was to stop the French colonising NZ instead.

     Like the US. Listen to the wisdom of our founders.

     No. The Treaty may have been a good idea but the application was all bollocks.

     Democracy would relegate us to a powerless minority.

     Your support of democracy is what I expect from the right-wing.
   • SHG 1.4

     24 January 2019 at 1:40 pm

     Thank our lucky stars it’s just a piss take.

     No, it’s an advertisement for lamb meat.
2. Chug 2

   24 January 2019 at 8:34 am

   And then they can have a snowflake for PM too. They have already tried every other type
   • timeforacupoftea 2.1

     24 January 2019 at 10:13 am

     Yes true.

     Wasn’t Helen Clark a Aussie, she would have done the job in a blink.

     But Aussies are to harsh and would have our pretty sweet gentle Snowflake in a mental institution in weeks.

     Jacinda will get on better working in the UN where nothing gets done but cups of tea.
     • greywarshark 2.1.1

       24 January 2019 at 10:40 am

       Don’t run down cups of tea. If there could be an obligatory tea party with the opposing side before any country invades another we might avoid some of our extreme horrible practices. Cups of Tea R’Go I say.

       That’s sort of a quick explanation of what the UN is about. Of course she would be having cups of tea.
   • Gabby 2.2

     24 January 2019 at 10:25 am

     They seem to prefer the arseholes type chugguluggy. Praps Slick Britches could relocate.
   • bwaghorn 2.3

     24 January 2019 at 11:39 am

     Can’t have snowflakes in aussie to hot .so they have lumps of coal instead.
   • patricia bremner 2.4

     24 January 2019 at 4:39 pm

     Chug? as in Chug a lug of moonshine fame? Jacinda’s a diamond not a snowflake.
     Quit drinking mate.
3. OnceWasTim 3

   24 January 2019 at 8:35 am

   Australia accepts there is an ‘NZ’ in ANZAC, not just in the minds of the military

   Australia empties out all its detention centres and compensates detainees

   Norfolk Island becomes a self-governing territory

   Half the Liberal and National parties, and much of Corporate Australia get to live and establish boltholes on Christmas Island free provided they undertake never to leave

   etc. etc. etc.

   I think I’d rather a Federation with Pacific Island States, Tasmania and Norfolk Island somehow
4. RedLogix 4

   24 January 2019 at 8:41 am

   Calling all ignorant stereotypes to have a rant… now is your moment in the sun.

   PS Federation is an idea I’ve long supported, but I doubt most kiwis could get over themselves enough to do it.
   • Ad 4.1

     24 January 2019 at 8:44 am

     The ad and post are meant in jest only
     • RedLogix 4.1.1

       24 January 2019 at 9:14 am

       Yeah I suspected as much. Still it’s disheartening to see how many kiwi’s hold to sweeping and ridiculous prejudices about Australia.

       The reality is this; there are scarcely two nations on earth that are more closely linked economically and socially. They form the backbone of our banking, insurance and retail industries. Huge numbers of businesses in Auckland are branch offices of somewhere in Sydney or Melbourne.

       And there are hardly any families either side of the Tasman who don’t have relatives ‘over there’.

       It’s in the political domain that we’ve drifted apart in the post-WW2 period. Especially since Howard’s regrettable and unilateral move against the free movement of people in 2001. A fair analysis would allocate the blame for this on both countries; although it has to be said that Australia has been prone to treating us as only slightly more civilised than Tasmania.

       Having said that, in the past six years I’ve generally found I don’t encounter systemic or overt prejudice. Sometimes when I’m round a bunch of site tradies bantering away in their own special code, you definitely realise you weren’t born here, but that I can accept. Face to face their perfectly accepting I’m a kiwi.

       Beyond that I’ve met many, many kiwis here who’ve made the move, and like us only regretted they didn’t do it earlier. Getting out from under the burden of low expectations back home, combined with more opportunity and respect for hard work, they finish up doing very well for themselves thank you.

       Our geography and histories have many stark contrasts and these have shaped us differently, but we remain very close cousins in most of the ways that matter. It’s a relationship that we’re too often a bit dismissive of, but when push comes to shove we would also utterly depend on.
       • DJ Ward 4.1.1.1

         24 January 2019 at 9:45 am

         It’s not prejudice. We are best freinds with similar beliefs and high levels of economic connectivity.

         However we are not part of Australia. We are even on a different continent. We were created by settlers and Moari. They were created by the British military, slavery in the form of convicts, and intentional genocide.

         So no thanks to being a part of that.
         • solkta 4.1.1.1.1

           24 January 2019 at 10:02 am

           Yeh we didn’t have any of that British military thing in NZ. Oh wait!
         • RedLogix 4.1.1.1.2

           24 January 2019 at 10:05 am

           As I said, I fully realise most kiwis quietly think themselves slightly superior to aussies …
           • DJ Ward 4.1.1.1.2.1

             24 January 2019 at 10:25 am

             If we are equal then why would you want us to become a lesser partner? We would only have 1/6 th of our political power. A powerless minority.
             • RedLogix …

               24 January 2019 at 10:39 am

               The same is true of all the Australian states, they’re all ‘minorities’. But no-one seriously argues this diminishes any of the states. They squabble a lot, but wouldn’t for an instant contemplate dissolution.

               You could look at it the other way and argue that as a member of a much larger entity, NZ would have multiplied it’s political influence by a factor of 6.

               After all, if the USA did not exist, exactly what influence do you think the ‘independent nation’ of say, Montana, might have?
           • greywarshark 4.1.1.1.2.2

             24 January 2019 at 10:42 am

             Red Logix
             You are so Right.
         • Kevin 4.1.1.1.3

           25 January 2019 at 10:43 pm

           Ah no, only true of a few of the states/territories WA & SA settled by free settlers, not convicts.
       • OnceWasTim 4.1.1.2

         24 January 2019 at 10:45 am

         “The reality is this; there are scarcely two nations on earth that are more closely linked economically and socially.”
         Just curious – since there are ‘scarcely’ others. Who might the other nations be in your mind’s eye?
         • RedLogix 4.1.1.2.1

           24 January 2019 at 11:00 am

           Well at one extreme you might imagine say Uzbekistan and Peru as two nations with scarcely any directly shared traditions and history.

           At the other extreme you can think of of say North and South Korea; separated only by politics, but otherwise the people share a deep and intimate heritage in common.

           By this measure I’d assert that Australia and New Zealand fall very much toward the latter category.
           • OnceWasTim 4.1.1.2.1.1

             24 January 2019 at 11:11 am

             And at other extremes and non-extremes, you could consider India and Nepal/India and Pakistan, or Rwanda and Burundi – which really should have been Tutsiland and Hutuland if only the Empires hadn’t got their clutches on the territory.
             And let’s not even start in the Middle East or Effrica.
             In the end, Mother Nature and Father Time really should have been left to sort it all out
             • RedLogix …

               24 January 2019 at 11:38 am

               if only the Empires hadn’t got their clutches on the territory.

               Empire is an ancient tendency. It’s the logical consequence of economies constrained by the energy available from plant photosynthesis. The only way for any society to survive was to expand the territory it could dominate.

               Domination, expansion and exploitation. It’s a pattern repeated with minor variations many hundreds of times within the past 10,000 years.

               It’s satisfying to dump on our European ancestors for the part they played in this drama over the past 300 odd years, but the pattern well predates this. And even if we had not taken up this role, does anyone imagine for an instant that the territories of Australia and Aoteoroa would have remained isolated, insulated from the rest of the world with their native populations blithely living on untouched, untrammeled by outsiders?

               Even if European colonisers had never arrived, does this preclude others? What was to prevent the Japanese, Chinese, Indians … or even Maori themselves from invading and dominating that continent?

               My argument all along has been this; the age of empire is over. Not necessarily because we’re more moral people, but because we’re in the process of technically making it obsolete. Territory is no longer central to the question of sufficient energy. This scientific and technical leap changes the way we look back on our history, and informs us of it’s lessons with a different perspective from those who lived through it.
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 24 January 2019 at 12:49 pm

                 Empire is an ancient tendency. It’s the logical consequence of economies constrained by the energy available from plant photosynthesis.

                 Empire is always the direct result of capitalism and greed.

                 The only way for any society to survive was to expand the territory it could dominate.

                 Lots of nations throughout history didn’t do that and they still managed to survive. They actually lived within their resource limits instead.

                 My argument all along has been this; the age of empire is over. Not necessarily because we’re more moral people, but because we’re in the process of technically making it obsolete.

                 Nope. We just call it a corporation now rather than empire. Same result though – exploitation of the many to enrich the few.
                 • RedLogix …

                   24 January 2019 at 1:11 pm

                   Empire is always the direct result of capitalism and greed.

                   Empire pre-dates capitalism by at least 23,000 years:

                   The first empire:

                   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_Empire

                   The history of capitalism:

                   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism

                   You seem to have cause and effect muddled in order to justify your ideological obsessions.

                   Lots of nations throughout history didn’t do that and they still managed to survive.

                   There is no rule that says every nation will become an empire; indeed only a relative few seem to reach the threshold of size, technological advantage and opportunity to do so. About the only one that survived within it’s means for any real length of time were the Australian Aboriginals, and then only because of an accident of geographical isolation. The moment outsiders arrived everything changed.

                   The core resource for all economies is energy; the more territory you control the more energy you have access to, the more dominant you become, the more you are able to expand. This has nothing to do with ‘greed’, it’s the same pattern throughout all of nature.

                   Inevitably those societies that attempted to ‘live within their means’ would eventually be overtaken by those that could expand one way or another.

                   Note carefully; I’m not attempting a moral justification here. That’s would be a futile exercise in retrospectively force fitting our perspectives onto people who lived in an entirely different world.

                   What I am arguing is that the demise of empire has less to do with ideology than technology. Now we can decouple our energy resources from plant photosynthesis directly, territory is no longer the central or important issue.

                   exploitation of the many to enrich the few.

                   Again … there is your real motive.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     24 January 2019 at 4:39 pm

                     You seem to have cause and effect muddled in order to justify your ideological obsessions.

                     Nope.

                     As I’ve said, once you look at the systems of ownership of Ancient Rome and other ancient civilisations then the only conclusion available is that capitalism is older than the 200 to 300 years that most like to think. As I’ve linked to before our ownership laws originated in Ancient Rome. Even the Akkadian Empire you link to had forms of ownership such as slaves (initial link), houses and plots of land and trade. Trade cannot happen without ownership of course.

                     There is no rule that says every nation will become an empire; indeed only a relative few seem to reach the threshold of size, technological advantage and opportunity to do so.

                     And every single one that did was capitalist in nature with a hierarchy based upon private ownership including the Akkadian Empire.

                     When the structures are the same then we’re talking about the same thing. Even feudalism had a capitalist structure.

                     What I am arguing is that the demise of empire has less to do with ideology than technology. Now we can decouple our energy resources from plant photosynthesis directly, territory is no longer the central or important issue.

                     And so China is claiming all of the South China Sea because?

                     No known technology can create matter out of nothing. China wants the SCS because it’s after the rich resources in it.

                     Again … there is your real motive.

                     Because supporting exploitation, as is required for capitalism, is such a moral position.
                   • patricia bremner …

                     24 January 2019 at 8:01 pm

                     ”Now we can decouple our energy resources from plant photosynthesis directly, territory is no longer the central or important issue.”

                     That would seem likely, until the new energy resources pollute to the point of destruction, and fighting is over the habitable regions.

                     Sir David Attenborough pointed out that we have become detached from nature, and unless we grasp our interconectedness with nature we will lose as a species, and our world will be uninhabitable.

                     We can not (decouple) uncouple our need for a habitable world.

                     Territory and battles for habitable territory might become a future problem.
                   • RedLogix …

                     24 January 2019 at 9:27 pm

                     @DtB

                     Again you stretch your definitions until they become meaningless. Capitalism, while it has antecedents, is widely accepted to have arisen in it’s modern form in the 1600’s. The wiki link I gave is clear on that point.

                     All your claim amounts to is that all trade and commerce in our entire known history has been nothing more than exploitation. Which is of course a nothing but a narrow, cynical view.

                     And in it’s place you propose nothing but an unproven, utopian dream that has in reality been nothing but a catastrophe everytime some bunch of fools attempt to implement it.

                     I’m not arguing for the status quo. I’m arguing we need to be a lot more sophisticated than Karl Marx. Since his time the world has changed beyond all recognition, and our economies are based on forms of wealth generation he could never have imagined.

                     Gross inequality may not even be an economic problem; it may be the completely the wrong domain to be thinking about it. After all virtually all the primary detrimental impacts are psychological in nature; perhaps we’d make more progress thinking about it in those terms.

                     And then maybe the current forms of capitalism, which we both recognize as having serious limitations, can evolve beyond them.
                   • RedLogix …

                     24 January 2019 at 9:35 pm

                     @ patricia

                     That would seem likely, until the new energy resources pollute to the point of destruction, and fighting is over the habitable regions.

                     Indeed climate change may yet ensure we may have swapped one problem for another. Burning fossil carbon was only ever, could only ever, be a transitional phase.

                     But there is a way out, technology is on the cusp of replacing carbon with a number of non-polluting, renewable energy resources that offer a path out of this trap. I’m not hyping this; it will be difficult and immensely challenging on many levels, but I refuse to allow myself to wallow in cynicism and nihilism on this.

                     When faced with utter catastrophe defiance is the only answer!
         • soddenleaf 4.1.1.2.2

           24 January 2019 at 4:21 pm

           Since the first fleet induviduals have crossed and traded the ditch withou restriction. Until Howard racism against Maori hordes jumping the ditch. Australia does have the right to fear organised gangs and disrupt their nonOz members, their friends, their supporters. Howard bad, awful, but currently clearing a backlog of people ain’t nearly so. Where theygo to far, is babes born in nz but grown-up in oz who have nothing to do with the gangs etc, that’s just plain wrong. I do think NZ ends a good hard look at itself, why is it that we don’t conform better to Australian building codes, industrial standards, etc the more mismatch, the more the right here lockdown rent, the more disparity that entices kiwis to jump the ditch. Food quality and prices here. cOst of living, no justification for why it’s more expensive here, just collusion if parliament to stifle the economy. Match Australia for the benefit of all nz, not just rich rent seekers of the national party.
       • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.3

         24 January 2019 at 12:41 pm

         The reality is this; there are scarcely two nations on earth that are more closely linked economically and socially. They form the backbone of our banking, insurance and retail industries. Huge numbers of businesses in Auckland are branch offices of somewhere in Sydney or Melbourne.

         And it’s hurting NZ as all such foreign ownership has hurt nations throughout history.

         We need a ban on foreign ownership now.

         Our geography and histories have many stark contrasts and these have shaped us differently, but we remain very close cousins in most of the ways that matter.

         No, actually, we don’t.
   • DJ Ward 4.2

     24 January 2019 at 8:58 am

     Nothing stoping you joining them. Just don’t do it here. Plane trips are cheap. They even speak a version of English so you would hardly be noticed as being a from an independent foreign nation. Maybe you could get a job at the new US military base. Then you have a foot in the door when they join the US as the 51st state with Trump as your leader.
     • RedLogix 4.2.1

       24 January 2019 at 9:36 am

       I’ve been working here the past six years. Or to put it more accurately I’ve been working for Australian companies that period, but most of the time I’ve been actually working overseas in many other locations. Only recently have I actually been at an Australian site.

       from an independent foreign nation.

       A delusional conceit.
       • DJ Ward 4.2.1.1

         24 January 2019 at 10:21 am

         I work for the Chinese. That doesn’t meen I want NZ to be part of China.
         • Gabby 4.2.1.1.1

           24 January 2019 at 10:41 am

           Well you have to say that warty.
   • patricia bremner 4.3

     24 January 2019 at 4:43 pm

     Kiwis over in Ozzie are treated like feral migrants…why make it official? They don’t like us we are ”too nice”
     • RedLogix 4.3.1

       24 January 2019 at 5:29 pm

       treated like feral migrants

       Only if you behave feral. In my experience if you treat their country with a modicum of respect, like any guest should, you’ll be fine. And that includes the many people of Maori descent I’ve met here. Including say the current Mayor of Ballarat:

       https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/3466048/peoples-choice-mayor-revealed/

       Originally from Hawera. If you’ve personally had a different experience I’m sorry for that.

       The question of a clear path to permanent residency has been a troublesome political question since 2001. Recently the rules have moved in the right direction somewhat, so there is hope we might get that back on track eventually.
       • patricia bremner 4.3.1.1

         24 January 2019 at 6:47 pm

         Really?? earn 55 000 a year for 5 years. ( NZers can’t take any government job) Apply and hope. Oh and while you are waiting.. you can’t vote, and to be involved in many areas you are not allowed dual citizenship. You may apply for one 6mth payment from Centre Link, use 1 week of it you have lost the lot. Other migrants have huge rights… look it up on their govt site often finishes information pages with ”Except for New Zealanders”
         • RedLogix 4.3.1.1.1

           24 January 2019 at 7:52 pm

           I’m very aware of all that. It is irksome and if you do plan to live there you need to go with your eyes open.

           But this is a political compromise, most ordinary aussies are a bit surprised when they hear about it the first time.

           And $55k pa is fairly easy to earn. Less than that and you aren’t trying.
           • patricia bremner 4.3.1.1.1.1

             24 January 2019 at 9:59 pm

             Unbroken for 5 years is the catch.
5. rata 5

   24 January 2019 at 9:02 am

   This add is so 1982
   Who are they appealing too?
   Retired Pakeha sheep farmers?
   Colin Mead’s generation? RIP Piney.
   Phar lap, Pavlova , under arm?
   Barbeques the eh boy Maori?
   Who is selling what to who?
   Geriatric nostalgia for the baby boomers the next business gold mine ?
   • Tricledrown 5.1

     24 January 2019 at 9:49 am

     Adding ies to everything stubbies tinnies Aussie mozzies surfies kiwies matie!
     • greywarshark 5.1.1

       24 January 2019 at 10:43 am

       This post is becoming so funnie.
     • bwaghorn 5.1.2

       24 January 2019 at 11:42 am

       Don’t forget the o”s they add TricleO
   • SHG 5.2

     24 January 2019 at 1:49 pm

     The ad agency behind this campaign is appealing to social media users and bloggers to get them to share the video to their own audiences for free so Meat & Livestock Australia gets more value from its contract with that agency.
6. greywarshark 6

   24 January 2019 at 9:24 am

   If we amalgamated with Australia, it would be on their terms, and we would lose what remains of our soul. And we would continue to be treated as we are and turned into a mixture of ghost town and being over-run with aggressive, materialistic Aussies. Either way we would be swamped. Perhps it is too late for us to recover a NZ spirit, I don’t know. There is quite a lot of commercial spirit in NZ by small entrepreneurs. But I don’t see a lot of nous of the bigger picture of how we can survive in the world as humans living collectively and bringing their individual ideas into the community that help make us stronger and sweeter!
   • RedLogix 6.1

     24 January 2019 at 9:58 am

     If we amalgamated with Australia, it would be on their terms, and we would lose what remains of our soul.

     Bullshit. In case you hadn’t noticed the Australian states remain distinct and vibrant entities. Try telling them they’ve ‘lost their soul’.

     Indeed whether you like it or not, we are for all practical purposes already amalgamated with Australia. It’s just that we don’t get any political clout or get to hold this quasi-federation to any form of democratic accountability.
     • Gabby 6.1.1

       24 January 2019 at 10:23 am

       Slightly different shades of scorched brick red isn’t distinct and vibrant reddy.
       • RedLogix 6.1.1.1

         24 January 2019 at 10:41 am

         You need to get out of the house more.
         • Gabby 6.1.1.1.1

           24 January 2019 at 11:03 am

           In that sun reddy? I don’t think so.
           • SHG 6.1.1.1.1.1

             24 January 2019 at 1:51 pm

             I am in sunny Adelaide South Australia right now, where it is currently 11:20am and 42 deg C outside, and if I’m really lucky the overnight low temperature will only be in the low 30s.
         • OnceWasTim 6.1.1.1.2

           24 January 2019 at 1:40 pm

           I did. In fact I once held an Ozzie passport (or at least my mother did on my dehalf) 50 or so years ago.
           I not only got out of the house, I got out of the country thanks to a bloody TEAL Electra. From the Lucky Country to the Lucky Escape.
           Bugger you @RL! I STILL can’t get Slim Dusty out of my mind.
           Maybe a dose of GleesO or RichO or JonesIE or CredO or SpeersIE on SkoiO NewsIE Australia might fix it
     • greywarshark 6.1.2

       24 January 2019 at 10:55 am

       Australian states couldn’t lose their soul, indeed. You have to have or develop one to actually lose one. We tried to develop one on our formation with the Treaty with Maori and then had to work on it so we actually followed Treaty terms for Maori then also worked on the soul as far as acting rightly for the general populace’s wellbeing. I think we had gone well along the road to having a soul, but 1984 put an end to the clear pathway we had. However still better than Oz.

       Your last point is factual and needs to be considered. Have we sold ourselves off to the Aussies and world business, and have now reached the point where we might as well admit it and go on our knees to the Aussies. Their politicians are worse than ours. Are we so low that we have no alternative to better ourselves?
       • RedLogix 6.1.2.1

         24 January 2019 at 11:11 am

         You have to have or develop one to actually lose one.

         Again a ridiculous and sweeping prejudice …

         Yes NZ has a different history; but that doesn’t make us a ‘better’ people. We need to get over ourselves on this.
     • patricia bremner 6.1.3

       24 January 2019 at 5:10 pm

       Ozzie States get their GST as income and they ‘re always wantin’ more.
       They dream of going to New York or Vegas and they like Trump.
       They can’t agree the railway gauge, from one State to the next.
       They are proud of their convict past, but a convicted Kiwi nah..pass!!
       I like the Ozzie humour, I really truly do. They know how to take the mickey out of me ‘n you.
       But as for Federation ”Mate!! That’s a step too far. YOU’D CLOSE OUR URANIUM MINE and you’d put the wrong beer on the bar!!”
   • OnceWasTim 6.2

     24 January 2019 at 10:52 am

     ‘Spirit’
     Now there’s an interesting word defying definition these days.
     30 years of neo-liberalism sometimes does that to stuff&things&commodities tho’ I suppose/propose (going forward).
     But yea/nah/next
7. greywarshark 7

   24 January 2019 at 9:38 am

   That is a ‘brooding’ figure behind our PM in the first image. Bald, big black sunglasses obscuring eyes, a big black beard obscuring face, a black shirt, dark suit. Who is this figure looming behind our lovely PM?
   • Tricledrown 7.1

     24 January 2019 at 9:50 am

     Her famous body guard Ned Kelly.
   • veutoviper 7.2

     24 January 2019 at 10:29 am

     LOL. As Trickledown said, one of Ardern’s bodyguards – but not Ned Kelly.

     His name is Iain McKay, and he is (or was) a member of the NZ Police Diplomatic Protection Service (Squad) which provides personal protection to the PM and Governor-General continually 24/7 and to other people such as the Leader of the Opposition, DPM and other Ministers, MPs and visiting dignatories as needed. They also provide protection of government buildings such as Parliament, Premier House, Government House etc.

     http://www.police.govt.nz/about-us/structure/teams-units/diplomatic-protection-squad

     That picture appears to have been taken during the General Election campaign when, as Leader of the Oppostion, Ardern had 24/7 protection and McKay was a mainstay on her DPS team. Previously he had often been seen protecting Bill English as PM.

     McKay became a bit of a celebrity himself for his shaved head and beard, and he gained a bit of a following with several media articles about him.

     It also became known about the time of his being part of Ardern’s DPS team that he was dating Jessica Mutch, the TVNZ political editor. They became engaged about the time of the general election and married on Waiheke Island last August. She now calls herself Jessica Mutch McKay. He is rarely if at all seen these days and may well have moved from DPS as police officers usually only do a limited time in that role.

     You did ask! LOL

     Some pictures of him and Jessica here, plus articles on them.

     https://www.google.com/search?q=Jessica+Mutch&rlz=1C1LDJZ_enNZ499&oq=Jessica+Mutch+&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i65j0l4.10711j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
     • greywarshark 7.2.1

       24 January 2019 at 10:46 am

       Ned Kellie?

       and VeutoViper – a mine of information. Thanks mutchly.
8. Brutus Iscariot 8

   24 January 2019 at 4:58 pm

   Funny, as this is effectively what the EU is. Yet people are lambasting Brexit quite unthinkingly.

   If we were led into a Union with Australia with no referendum, could you blame people for voting to leave a generation later?
   • RedLogix 8.1

     24 January 2019 at 5:43 pm

     At least give me some credit for consistency 🙂

     The problem with the EU was the flawed idea that each nation could retain it’s traditional sovereignty, while letting an apparently unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy inveigle itself into the everyday lives of each country.

     If EU Commissioners had developed a stronger form of democractic accountability, they may not have faced quite the obvious difficulties they face now. The EU needed reform, not rejection.

     By contrast if NZ became an AU State, we’d take direct seats into an established democracy, closely comparable to our own. But with more checks and balances.

     Ad has a point, Adern is the breath of fresh air the Australian Federal Parliament could do with. Brutal national debates on climate change and illegal immigration have left the Australian political scene more than a little bruised right now.
     • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1

       24 January 2019 at 6:22 pm

       The problem with the EU was the flawed idea that each nation could retain it’s traditional sovereignty, while letting an apparently unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy inveigle itself into the everyday lives of each country.

       Those were certainly major problems.

       It either had to become one nation with one currency or remain as separate nations with separate currencies. I think the latter is the better option as it allows better flexibility economically.

       And, yes, I think the same applies to the USA. Fifty states with fifty sovereign currencies.

       Floating currencies are necessary to the free-market.

       If EU Commissioners had developed a stronger form of democractic accountability, they may not have faced quite the obvious difficulties they face now. The EU needed reform, not rejection.

       There shouldn’t have been any EU Commissars. As soon as they had them they had the same governance structure as the USSR.
9. AB 9

   24 January 2019 at 6:32 pm

   46.9 degrees C in Adelaide today.
   Give it a couple of decades and what will it go to – 50 deg, 55? God knows – they won’t be staying put, and they won’t have enough food.
   Practice your Strine – federation is coming, but it probably won’ be voluntary at our end. Imagine balmy, sub-tropical Balclutha with a million Ocker immigrants still insisting on their inalienable right to drive V8 Holdens everywhere.
   • greywarshark 9.1

     25 January 2019 at 9:04 pm

     Imagine the pubs with a curfew of midnight except in weekends and high holidays to prevent thd drunken bums from NZ fighting the same from Oz who hadn’t grasped that they can never go back again. They wouldn’t go with ‘Like it opr lump it’.
10. NZJester 10

    24 January 2019 at 7:42 pm

    It is a trap. Some Aussies would just love to either get their mitts on NZ to start strip mining here too or raid our fisheries.
11. DS 11

    24 January 2019 at 8:47 pm

    Another reason behind New Zealand opting out in 1900 was that Richard Seddon thought it was our destiny to have a Pacific Empire, and we couldn’t very well have one if we were part of Australia.

    Anyway:

    1. New Zealand joining with Australia would be immeasurably destructive. Their economy is based on mining, ours on dairy products. The resulting exchange rate issues (overvalued currency, interest rates out of sych with our economic needs) would turn us into Greece to Australia’s Germany.

    2. Fancy getting rid of nuclear free? Fancy sending New Zealand soldiers to die in the next Iraq because Canberra said so is a good idea? Fancy being stuck with Australian-dictated immigration policies? Thought not.

    3. There’s 2300 km between Wellington and Canberra (further than London to Reykjavik). It’s 5200km from Wellington to Perth (further than Los Angeles to New York).

    4. We’d be the Quebec to Australia’s Canada: the special snowflake headache with a significant independence movement. Also, do we get admitted as one state or two (bearing in mind that the South Island has twice the population of Tasmania)?

    So, no. Hell no.
    • RedLogix 11.1

      24 January 2019 at 9:08 pm

      Good point on Seddon’s ambitions; I’d read that somewhere but you’ve reminded me.

      The resulting exchange rate issues (overvalued currency, interest rates out of sych with our economic needs)

      In the past five years or so the NZD/AUD exchange rate has been within 10% of parity most of the time. Both nations have similar Reserve Bank regulations and political constraints on govt borrowing. And while mining does provide the icing on the Australian economic cake, it certainly isn’t the whole story by any means.

      Fancy getting rid of nuclear free? Fancy sending New Zealand soldiers to die in the next Iraq because Canberra said so is a good idea? Fancy being stuck with Australian-dictated immigration policies? Thought not.

      The Australian states retain a considerable autonomy, making their own regulations and policies much to the annoyance of people who regularly move between them. They don’t even have a common road code; so if NZ wants to retain policies important to us then I can’t see how that couldn’t be made to work.

      Immigration is easy; they’re almost identical already.

      There’s 2300 km between Wellington and Canberra

      If they could do it in the days of sailing ships, then I doubt we’d have too much trouble in this era of the internet.

      You left out that it’s 3000km Perth to Canberra. They seem to have coped with that for quite some time now. They may be able to advise us on how it’s done.

      We’d be the Quebec to Australia’s Canada

      A wider cultural and language gap to bridge, yet over time they’ve worked it out. The desire for Quebec separatism has waned considerably in recent times. I could easily turn that around and argue that if they can do it, why not us?

      Probably the main reason is the holier than thou snobbery of most kiwis who plainly think they’re better people. This entire thread is evidence enough.
      • DS 11.1.1

        24 January 2019 at 9:26 pm

        Military matters (and foreign policy) are determined federally. We can’t have nuclear free if we are part of Australia.
        • RedLogix 11.1.1.1

          24 January 2019 at 9:42 pm

          Why not? Clearly admitting NZ into the Federation would not be a trivial process; it would need years of detailed negotiation. The rules are man-made, we can devise what will work.
          • DS 11.1.1.1.1

            24 January 2019 at 9:52 pm

            So you envisage us being part of a Federation, but literally having control of our own foreign policy and military arrangements? What sort of Federation is that?
            • RedLogix 11.1.1.1.1.1

              24 January 2019 at 10:49 pm

              Negotiating the elements that are important to us; it’s called politics, the art of the compromise both parties can live with.

              An old-fashioned concept I know …
          • greywarshark 11.1.1.1.2

            26 January 2019 at 12:02 pm

            Today’s man is in love with machines, like he always was, but now they are bigger and more destructive and supposedly more rational. As love of efficiency grows, over human stumbling and time-wasting, more questions will be left to machines to answer and also to gather the necessary background information on which to form their judgments (humans being prone to mistakes and bias).

            So the idea that the rules are man-made is open to question, and the question is which man or men or wo-men, on what basis, in what context, and if men aren’t to be trusted now, the likelihood of trust in them and the rules that leaders, who act as superiors, form and impose will lead us actually to the secret path that is called by the in-group, Suicide Alley.
    • ropata 11.2

      24 January 2019 at 9:08 pm

      Also: Phar Lap, Pavlova, Split Enz, Dragon (they can keep Russell Crowe)
12. ropata 12

    24 January 2019 at 9:21 pm

    The comment about immigration is one of the stupidest fact-free assertions I have seen on TS

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/10/03/australia-the-worlds-first-immigration-economy/

    Economists don’t usually bother to adjust quarterly GDP statistics for population growth. For most developed nations, population growth is so slow and steady as to hardly matter on such a short-term time horizon. Not so for Australia. Australia’s population has grown by nearly 45 percent since 1991. No other major developed country even comes close to that rate.

    https://www.economist.com/asia/2017/10/05/australia-admits-more-migrants-than-any-other-big-western-country

    “THE prime reason for the decline in living standards for many Australian workers is our staggering population growth,” thunders Dick Smith, a campaigning millionaire, in an apocalyptic manifesto. He is right about the staggering growth. The number of children the average Australian woman has fell below two in the 1970s and has stayed there. Yet since then Australia’s population has grown by 70%, thanks almost entirely to immigration. Over 28% of today’s residents were born overseas—a higher share than in Canada or New Zealand, let alone Britain or America (see chart 1). The number of newcomers continues to grow. Net overseas migration (a measure of immigrants minus departing Aussies) has nearly doubled since 2000.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5194235/Australia-records-highest-immigration-rate.html

    Australia’s net immigration soared by a record 27 per cent in the year to June 30, 2017, compared with the previous year, as 245,400 new foreigners arrived.

    Sydney and Melbourne are choking with new residents, with the ABS’s director of demography Beidar Cho pointing out overseas migration grew by 31 per cent in New South Wales and 23 per cent in Victoria.

    Both states recorded their highest ever net immigration pace surpassing a growth level last experienced in 2008, the ABS said.

    In the year to the end of June, NSW added 98,600 new migrants while Victoria absorbed 86,900 new overseas residents.

    Growth was slower in the other states, with Queensland’s net migration rate up by 31,100 while Western Australia took in 13,100 new migrants.

    Australia has the fastest population growth pace of any developed nation in the OECD with an annual growth pace of 1.6 per cent.

    That is more than double the annual population growth pace of the United States (0.7 per cent) and the U.K. (0.6 per cent), and above the expansion rate of The Philippines and Singapore (1.5 per cent).

    Might pay to get your facts before making bigoted assumptions and blaming rednecks. Big business and the LNP are running a population ponzi scheme and a growing number of Aussies are sick of being shat on
13. peterlepaysan 13

    24 January 2019 at 10:00 pm

    I am doubtful about this.
    Australian politicians appear to be a self destructive toxic joke.
    Australian cricketers have tried to reduce the game to a school ground strutting bully park.
    Australian rugby players (either code) demonstrate little intelligence.

    Australian history, and current behaviour, has displayed, and and continues to display an utter contempt for peoples of non european origin.

    Australians cannot abide people who do not have english as their first language.
    This also applies to those who speak english with a different accent to theirs.

    Talk about a bunch of insecure egotists.

    The political parties in NZ has enough already.
    We do not need more extreme idiots. We have enough already.
14. Obtrectator 14

    25 January 2019 at 11:16 am

    A long time ago now I heard/read a comment somewhere that Australia was incapable of sustaining a population of more than about 20 million, because of the limits on its fresh water resources. (And this was long before climate change had begun to get people worried.) As I look at the TV weather forecasts, with all those deepening shades of red spreading across the map, it occurs to me that they’re bumping up against those limits right now. They’ve been truly irresponsible in allowing so many to come into a country that won’t in the long run be able to support them. (Oh, and would I be right in thinking that many of those immigrants are from cultures that traditionally favour large families? A demographic time-bomb waiting to go off as well as the resources one.)

    We sure don’t want that kind of short-sighted nonsense imposed on NZ. As for Jacinda as federal PM, she wouldn’t be allowed to survive six months. They’d roll her in favour of some ghastly old waxwork and then continue exactly as before.
    • Ad 14.1

      25 January 2019 at 2:38 pm

      +100
15. OnceWasTim 15

    25 January 2019 at 3:58 pm

    Whoooooooar! as a Ure would say.

    You’re a mischievous little minx at times eh Ad?

    So what do we now conclude from this post in your mind?

    RedL’s contention that NZers are insular and slightly insecure, and they possess a level of conceit and superiority over Okkers?

    That overwhelmingly, the idea of a Federation with Straya wouldn’t be all that welcome?

    There are deeply held feelings of Nationalism and difference between the two Nayshuns going forwid?

    Text YES to 2101 if you favour NZ becoming a client state of Australia in a Federal arrangement,
    or NO to 2101 if you think NuZull punches above its weight and should continue to go it alone

    We have a handful of minimum waged automatons in Albania, Jakarta and Kolkata ready to take your texts NOW
    • veutoviper 15.1

      25 January 2019 at 4:09 pm

      “You’re a mischievous little minx at times eh Ad?”

      And so are you OWT!

      And isn’t that (2101) RNZ National’s text number by chance?
      • OnceWasTim 15.1.1

        25 January 2019 at 4:55 pm

        Yes it is, but since RNZ is now into commercialism and the cult of personality, gradually shifting to the righteous, concerned with demographics and market share – rather than any concept of what Public Service Broadcasting should be concerning itself with, I thought they’d be interested in such a ‘vox populi’ outcome (going forwid).
        There’s a definite purge going on going forward.

        Btw, I was interested in your interactions with @ Rosie the other day after learning you were in the Rongotai Electricate.
        Seemed all very familiar to me.
        TS is great to watch and participate in at times eh? Shame the likes of TS and/or TDB are hardly ever mentioned in MSM, yet there are often references to others that run their RW equivalents – like the supposedly ‘respectable’ Kiwiblog.
16. Jenny - How to get there? 16

    27 January 2019 at 6:46 am

    This post’s satire is obviously a riff on the New Zealand open border policy with Australia. 

    But if New Zealand and Australia were truly borderless, Australia would not be able to forcibly send us Australians who had never set foot here, because it would be like deporting Australians to Tasmania. ie deporting Australians to Australia.

    Unless of course New Zealand was turned into a bigger subservient version of Christmas Island, an offshore Australian territory, and not a truly equal part of Australia.

    Which even though we are supposedly sovereign, is what is happening now.

    “Australian man to be deported to NZ, despite never having been here”
    Joel Ineson and Joanne Carroll – Sunday Star Times. January 27, 2019

    Why are we meekly tolerating this?
    • RedLogix 16.1

      27 January 2019 at 7:07 am

      Because … lacking any political clout in Canberra whatsoever … we have to.
      • Jenny - How to get there? 16.1.1

        27 January 2019 at 9:35 am

        We have clout we just don’t choose to use it.

        We could retaliate and slap punitive immigration restrictions on Australians already living here, and those seeking to come here.

        To not be too hard on our current Australian expats, unlike Canberra, we will show mercy, and offer all Australians who want to stay here, full New Zealand citizenship, that is if they agree to drop their Australian citizenship.

        Let them find out how their government treats New Zealanders.

        I believe Canberra will quickly back down.

        As the current heatwave tightens its grip on them, in the back of the minds, of many Australians they will be thinking about a backdoor entry to a cooler clime. Any restrictions we choose to put on Australian immigration, will make many Australians very uneasy.

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