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The blowoff stream

Written By: - Date published: 6:02 pm, September 15th, 2014 - 348 comments
Categories: election 2014, internet mana party, john key, Minister for International Embarrassment, same old national, video, youtube - Tags:

The queue is enormous. But here is the feed.

Thanks Selwyn for the link…..

19:05: Liala Harre has been improving her speaking since I last heard her. Introduced the speaker guests. Looking at the progressive achievements of the NZ past.

19:07: Glenn Greenwald is first up.

19:10: Greenwald calls John Key an adolescent 🙂 John Key has no interest in dignity or statesmanlike. “I’m not going to descend to the prime ministers level”


19:15: Greenwald directing his remarks towards John Key. In particular that Key is releasing classified information to protect HIS reputation.

19:20: Greenwald not paid. He told internet party to donate it to a charity. The Prime Ministers “reckless” accusation. Question is what is John Key saying about himself when he throws those types of accusations around. Does he have any principles?

19:28: NSA said project Speargun underway. Phase 1 completed. In this case actual implementation of technical means to capture internet data at the cables.

19:31: John Key lied about gaining new powers with the GCSB bill. In private they were saying something completely different. Waiting for GCSB Act before doing first metadata probe. The GBSB Act required to do the mass surveillance that Key was denying.

19:35: Snowden said that he saw the type of surveillance that Key was denying as an analyst in Hawaii (where our southern cross cable lands.

19:38: Snowden next.

19:45: Prime Minister wrong in his facts about surveillance. John Key is doing a careful parsing of words. GCSB reads US copies of surveillance of NZ citizens

19:54: Snowden says that metadata is more powerful for analyst than content. He has seen NZ data, both metadata and content. Available to all members of the 5 eyes, and without significant oversight. In NZ that oversight such as it is – John Key.

19:56: Assange from Wikileaks…

20:03: Assange: 5 eyes is an alliance of intelligence agencies – not nations. There is no consent by the population, just by elites in these nations now monitoring the citizens for their own benefit.

Kim Kim d

20:15: Video done with encryption. Kim Dotcom just did an advert for mega.

20:18: Bob Amsterdam – lawyer on TPP.


20:25: Amsterdam states that John Key is an outlaw. For instance the law society objecting to John Key abusing the due process for passing laws. Using ‘terror’ to do citizen invasion…

20:35 Amsterdam calls for a comprehensive independent Royal Commission on the actions of the John Key government.

20:40:: Kim Dot com intro? Nope.

20:54 Standup…
Gower predictably only interested in the email. Laila says proper process being followed – if speaker chooses to act.

Dotcom says the question is about John Key with the GCSB.

Dotcom is lecturing the media on their inadequacies and failings. It is not about his case, it was about the 5eyes, GCSB, and John Key’s government.

Greenwald saying that journalism is a about the facts. It is not about the election except that he has been working hard to get it out to allow people to go to the election with information.

348 comments on “The blowoff stream”

  1. KPC 1

    Can.Hardly.Wait. No blackouts please…can that be requested even?

  2. Weepus beard 2

    How exciting! Hasn’t Kim Dotcom brought some pizazz to the 2014 general election?

    Just standing back for a moment from the fire in the crucible at the moment, I genuinely think Dotcom and the Internet party would be great for New Zealand.

    His first task should be to oversee the dragging of the IRD and its arcane, paper-based technology into the 21st century. The billions saved with a comprehensive and modern platform, and the removal of process from the many failed accountants who make up all levels of the IRD would help level the playing field for a lot of our underprivileged children.

    I myself will not be voting IMP but I admire what they have done in a short space of time.

    • mickysavage 2.1

      I am enjoying it but I just hope it does not fracture things like in 1981 …

      • weka 2.1.1

        Unless we are at the point where breaking is the only option left. Sometimes things have to break in order for something else to arise.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Yep but change is what people fear most. It’s why National’s promise of keeping things the same often works while promising change often doesn’t.

      • Weepus beard 2.1.2

        Labour/Green/NZF/IMP are not going to win without a schism in the voting booth.

        The John Key personality politics has hypnotised such a large proportion of boof-head New Zealand men that a seismic event at this point in time may be the only way to unseat the sort of happy-go-lucky corruption we are witnessing from the current government.

      • paul scott 2.1.3

        Greg, you are fractured now, your decision to use foreigners, and criminals to fight your cause is the fracture. Your fiasco will probably see us through to 2017, since the man with his legs apart in the sand will hold. We certainly hope he does. It will be 56% NZ Govt with Winston, and none of us need come back to foaming Draco or Martyn for a long time no love you. Keep up with the money for babies idea, in an overcrowded world, you know you pay for my new Nazti baby, and the CGT,enerally explain policy which is abhorrent to New Zealanders , I think we love Dot crim for a long time, keep him here.

        • framu

          arent you the guy who cant read google correctly?

          seems you cant write very well either – paragraphs for gods sake!

          and actually having foreigners comment is vastly better as they have no political affiliation in NZ

        • One Anonymous Bloke


          Does Paul Scott know how to comment without lying? Not on the evidence.

      • Once Was Tim 2.1.4

        Maybe a repeat of 1981 is exactly what’s required. There are many that look back on that era, what transpired in SA, and have realised how divisive the whole sorry episode was – even certain police officers changed their minds.
        What I hope is that it doesn’t become cyclical. I’d thought we’d learnt from 1981 and Muldoon and his despotic disrespect for democracy. But then I thought the world might have learnt from WWII and fighting fascism. Apparently not (I mean who could have expected the ‘victims’ to be supplying the apartheid regime’s with their weaponry; who would have expected Obama’s Hope & Change to have become a rerun of neo-lib agendas and to be creaming himself over his relationship with a treacherous money trader?
        Maybe a rerun of 1981 is EXACTLY what’s required. – But I hope not. If it does come to that, then the de-ANZUs, the putting NZ out in the cold as punishment for anti-nuclear stance shouldn’t be feared.
        There’s always the BRICS (and along with it their proposal to duplicate the internet MINUS US hegemony. And should that happen – realistically there’s ekshully not a shitload The Land of The Free could do about it

  3. A blow by blow of the blowup of john blowoff – I sense a shart – lights on upstairs in the beehive again – loving this liar going down!

  4. His reputation is smelly and horrid – now we just need to get him to realise and the pack will follow 🙂

    oops we lost someone

  5. lprent 5

    ok starting bang on time

  6. lprent 7

    The stream is lagging by about 30 seconds

  7. karol 8

    Campbell live doing some background coverage.

    I have screens, but only the town hall audio playing.

  8. Lanthanide 9

    Not sure why Laila is there. This should be a KDC event, not an IP event.

  9. Zorr 10

    They should mute Kim’s mic. I don’t mind that he’s amused but Glenn is speaking well and I want to listen to him.

  10. Disraeli Gladstone 11

    This is a massive bombshell.

    Apparently, Queen Elizabeth has been abusing Glenn Greenwald!

    Ah well, all is right in the world – Americans still don’t get the difference between Head of State and Head of Government.

  11. weka 12

    Quality of stream is very good.

    • Weepus beard 12.1

      Another reason to hope for a change in government. Good quality streaming!

      • weka 12.1.1


      • Zorr 12.1.2

        It’s because they are in central Auckland and will have access to high speed cable that will only be required to carry the upload to Google/Youtube.

        The problem with the previous streams was that they were locally hosted which caused all kinds of issues.

        (I occasionally stream and can manage 720p if I fiddle enough)

    • lprent 12.2

      Great. Damn good so far.

      • paul scott 12.2.1

        another few days to go and then the gnashing of the teeth, foam at mouth, , and back to your normal violence

        • lprent

          Don’t be a silly wee fool. The left as a whole are seldom violent. Violence tends to be done to the left by knuckleheads like yourself.

  12. Lanthanide 13

    Glenn is a very good speaker.

  13. Zorr 14

    Almost up to 15k viewers…

    How many Hager books were sold so far? Does this already beat that? 🙂

  14. That 3rd slide is a killer

  15. weka 16

    Has anyone asked Greenwald about the MSM in NZ and how to create balanced and fair media?

    • karol 16.1

      Greenwald has touched on that – mainly by talking about the role of journalists, and what NZ journos should be doing.

      He hasn’t talked about how to make that happened.

      • weka 16.1.1

        I’ve heard some general comments on what journos should be doing. Nothing on specific MSM issues in NZ though. I can understand why he wouldn’t want to go there, but we need the same degree of spotlight put on the journos as on the govt.

      • paul scott 16.1.2


        [lprent: Banned again. Clearly likes to criticize, but unable to handle criticism. 4 weeks to attempt to learn self-control. ]

  16. weka 17

    What was Laila’s dig at Plunkett about?

    • Zorr 17.1

      He was being a complete twerp. From his Facebook:
      “Actually came to work angry this morning. Angry that a fugitive German hacker, fraudster and money launderer still thinks he can hijack a New Zealand election. I guess money talks, it bought the Mana Party and Laille Harre and even a wife for a while. It has also bought journalist Glen Grenwald and his lawyer here to participate in what must be the most sophisticated act of revenge and self serving mind control in the history of this nation. The liberal media and left leaners of Aro Valley have lapped up the half baked conspiracy theories and hate speech the Kim Dotcom and his cronies have peddled in the past weeks in the hope of fixing an election. I guess the only thing that tempers my anger is the fact that they have and will continue to fail…that this mud slinging campaign based on fear and innuendo won’t fool the vast majority of New Zealanders”

      • weka 17.1.1

        holy shit. That’s embarrassing.

      • Kat 17.1.2

        Plunkett is most likely feeling he’s been conned, missed the boat, failed as a journalist in how this story got passed him and regrets, somewhat emotionally, supporting John Key et al.

      • Grantoc 17.1.3

        Right on Sean.

        Exactly how I felt.

        It is outrageous that foreign nationals in the form of these pricks can come to NZ and attempt to disrupt and influence New Zealand’s election.

        Imagine the uproar if the Nats had bought in a bunch of foreigners to discredit the liberal left parties with a series of allegations about their behaviour just prior to the election.

        As for that ultimate prick amsterdam slandering key by calling him a traitor, he should be frog marched out of NZ post haste.

        • phillip ure

          key is a total ‘traitor’..

          ..he is not working in the interests of nz citizens..

          ..he works in the interest of a foreign power..

          ..against the interests of new zealanders..

          ..by any definition..

          ..that is a ‘traitor’…

        • weka

          “Imagine the uproar if the Nats had bought in a bunch of foreigners to discredit the liberal left parties with a series of allegations about their behaviour just prior to the election.”

          Ok, this is satire right?

        • Bill

          As a foreign national who lives here, (been called a prick by many and told to ‘go back where you belong’ – notably by Winston 3 times, and twice when he was deputy PM) all I have to say you and your ilk is – “Go fuck yourself you clowns. Preferably both emotionally and physically, and thirdly, very painfully”

        • CnrJoe

          Sean saw All the Presidents men, came on his show and said he’d seen the light and Nicky was right all along, went on about Jason ede

        • framu

          so you hate freedom of speech – thanks for playing, you can pick up your free jackboots on the way out

        • framu

          “Imagine the uproar if the Nats had bought in a bunch of foreigners to discredit the liberal left parties with a series of allegations about their behaviour just prior to the election.”

          well if they had been up to illegal and unethical practices it would be in everyones interest to know before voting wouldnt it

          thanks your big dumb problem – the left actually dont want representatives who are corrupt and would gladly welcome such an exposure if it was true – and you cant comprehend that

      • Inky 17.1.4

        I knew Plunkett’s dad but don’t wish to speak ill of the dead.

      • Saarbo 17.1.5

        Plunkett is right in one sense. “Money talks”, unfortunately it seems that the only way the Left can take on the wealthy right is with Dotcoms money. No one else could expose what we have seen here. Good on Dotcom for this and his funding of IM.

  17. jimekus 18

    I have court provable evidence concerning two occasions whereby I personally have been the subject of what could only be classed as mass surveillance. Both occasions occurred late lat year. Who wants to know more?

    • Weepus beard 18.1

      Me, please.

      • jimekus 18.1.1

        In response to a recent Slashdot thread entitled, “Hacker Disrupts New Zealand Election Campaign” the subject line “Voip SMS Fixed” discloses details of one incident that can be backed by affidavit. The second incident involves an NZ Customs unwarranted interception of a private postal envelope clearly marked as coming from a Bank Ombudsman, details of which correspondence could only have been gleaned using a surveillance program.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 18.2

      A judge.

  18. karol 19

    So, there’s an NSA facility in Auckland, and another in the “north”… where exactly? (Snowden statement)

    • sockpuppet 19.1

      My house. 😀

    • adam 19.2

      You would have driven past the one up north, going north. It’s not a TV satellite receiver. And the one in Auckland, well that one I’m not 100% but I thought it was in Takapuna.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 19.2.1

        Corner of Northcote Rd & Akoranga Dr is end point of Southern Cross Cable going to Hawaii.

        The satellite station near Warkworth, is mostly used for data traffic, most likely location of ‘NSA North’

        Other end of Southern Cross cable is Whenupai near airbase

    • Cancerman 19.3

      Just off New North Road.

  19. karol 20

    Tweet from Gower:

    John Key has some serious explaining to do. Can’t just bat off questions about X-Keyscore any more. #decision14

  20. lurgee 21

    So we’ve got someone wanted for theft, someone wanted for breach of copyright and someone wanted for sexual offences, talking to us about morality.

    I think I can see how this one is going to play.

    Shame, for a moment I thought they had something going there.

    • weka 21.1

      ah and here comes the dog in the manger.

    • The Other Mike 21.2

      Well you obviously made up your mind based on the evidence presented.

      Please spare us your in-depth analysis.

      • lurgee 21.2.1

        I refer you to my comment immediately above yours. Learn to read and think before deigning to share your branes with us.

        • weka

          mate you’re just too clever for the likes of us. Piss off eh? Or try doing something else that’s constructive.

          • lurgee

            Referring to Aesop’s fables and telling others to shut up rates as constructive in your book?

            I give as good as I get. If you want to play nice, I’ll play nice. If you’re going to be a vulgar cretin, I’ll at least match you on the first count.

            • weka

              But you always start with the negative shit. Always.

              • lurgee

                With Labour at 25% in the polls it’s a bit hard to argue the glass is half full.

                I simply saw an immediate problem with tonight’s events, and how it was going to play out. If you feel a warning is negative, then you need to develop a thicker skin.

                Sorry if this was meant to be some back-slapping and mutual pleasuring session. It didn’t say so on the door and I just walked right in …

                • weka

                  missing the point. It’s that you always come in with the thing that undermines. That’s your starting point.

                  • lurgee

                    Perhaps because no-one else has said it but it needs to be said?

                    I don’t see any point in wasting posts on repeating whoo-hoo type comments or offering phoney comfort.

                    Still, if you want a cuddle and to be told it is all okay, I’m sure someone will be happy to oblige.

                    • weka

                      fuck off with your deliberate misrepresenting my point.

                    • lurgee

                      What? You complain about me being all so ooh-nasty-negativity. I explain, patiently, why I posted the comments that I did. You get all upset about a teensy-weensy joke at the end of it.

                      Just look at you’re own foul mouth posturings up thread. All you’ve done is (try to) attack me personally. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out. And clearly, you can’t.

                    • weka


                      You are an incessantly negative person. Actually negative isn’t the right word, because there is nothing wrong with being critical. As I said at the start, dog in the manger is probably the best fit.

                      I get sick of it. You can be however you like, and I can call you out on it.

                    • lurgee

                      Can you please provide some guidance as when one is allowed to be ‘critical’? It is hard to tell when one is being ‘critical’ and one is being ‘negative.’

                      Possibly, if you practised posting without swearing and telling other posters to shut up and piss off, you might not come across as so ‘critical’ yourself.

                    • weka

                      just stick with the dog in the manger metaphor and you’ll get it.

                    • lurgee

                      If I have to be a dog can I not at least be a better sort of dog? Maybe one of the dogs that everyone is always saying we are going to? I’d like to be one of those dogs. They must be very popular if everyone is going to them.

                    • Weka, For me it’s the name. I mean Lurgee?

          • Potato

            from the Oxford dictionary….

            brane noun
            An extended object analogous to the strings of string theory but having any number of dimensions rather than one dimension.

            not sure that’s not an unintentional compliment ??

    • Chooky 21.3

      @ lurgee….you dont know what you are talking about …false accusations!….and a reflection on yoursef!

      • lurgee 21.3.1

        Are you claiming that Snowden is not wanted for data theft, Kim Dotcom is not wanted for copyright violation and Assange is not wanted for sexual offences?

        As far as I am aware, the charges against all three still stand. I didn’t pass any comment on the validity or justification of the charges. I was merely pointing out how Key / the right will play this one.

      • Inky 21.3.2

        Is this the dreaded lurgee?

  21. This snowden reveal of the nz tickbox destroys key’s lies

    • sockpuppet 22.1

      Disappointed there was no documentation to back up his claims.

        • sockpuppet

          Kim just needs a shopped piccie of key as a lizard person and the show will be complete.

          What a complete waste of 2 hours of my life.

          • weka

            right, so not actually interested in documentation then.

            • adam

              Sockpuppet you just proved everything Pam said, was right on the money about you lot.

              • Old bought and paid for Pam Cameron Slater David Farrar John Key……… fucking sellout.

                [lprent: Umm I think that you must have had wrong person. I corrected it for you several times. This is because I care for your accuracy. 😈 and I feel this is stupid pointless abuse. And I really didn’t like your original version when I checked back on it.

                I’d suggest that you exert more self-control in future. ]

          • mickysavage

            Nope he is just trolling. Even though KDC did not have the affidavit what I saw tonite was damning, utterly damning.

            • sockpuppet

              Heh I can just see you typing with that serious look on your face…. the Dotcom show was a joke and unfortunately for those of us who favour a change of government it will do more harm than good.

              Dotcom is a crook and a charlatan who has duped the media and other lackwits.

              • Draco T Bastard

                ^^^ Concern troll.

              • adam

                Keep sucking that stogie sockpuppet. Agent provocateur was the old adage. Me thinks you are just FUBAR by being lied to so often, you can’t get the snafu to work anymore.

              • Macro

                But he hasn’t duped you – No leave that to Key! You sad fool.

                • You sad sack just because I despise dot com and his ilk doesn’t mean I vote for the likes of key

                  • Macro

                    I don’t like the man much either (I lived on the same road) but I respect what he has done tonight and that has been to bring to the attention of the NZ public just how much under threat the sovereignty and the liberty of NZ is from both the 5 eyes and the TPPA. Furthermore he has clearly demonstrated to the people that all this has been at the complicity of our current PM, who has consistently lied to NZers and to Parliament about the intentions of the GCSB Act, and the TPPA negotiations. All at the instigation of multinationals, and the bully boy behaviour of the USA. If you can’t see that then you are a fool.

                    • weka

                      Can’t wait for Lynn to get home.

                      edit, ah I see sockpuppet that you have removed your comment saying “you are a cunt”.

                      [lprent: That is the upside of having long edit times. People get to think about what the moderators will think of it when they see it. The corrective self-control in this one tends to indicate that he has met the issue of doing it the wrong way before. ]

                    • weka

                      yeah I thought that too (it’s not like they removed it for the sensibility of the thread).

              • Inky

                Key is a crook and a charlatan who has duped the media and other lackwits.

            • Cancerman

              So did this spying occur under Labour?

            • Chris

              But how will it sink Key? Seems pretty easy to teflon away to me.

              • weka

                Fuck John Key. Don’t worry about him. The only way that National win the election is if people don’t get out and vote.

            • karol

              Most of the damaging information came out this afternoon.

          • Murray Olsen

            Your hole life is a complete waste. You should be on someone’s foot, but instead you have Ede’s and Slater’s hands up your bum.

            [lprent: I’d put that down as pointless abuse. However I was just contemplating saying much the same after reading a few of the idiotic comments by the puppet. ]

  22. Yes! – the TPPA must go before it even begins!!!

  23. infused 24

    What a fucking joke this has been

    • marty mars 24.1

      Exactly – key has let everyone down so badly, he doesn’t deserve any respect at all, not even as a punchline.

    • Lanthanide 24.2

      Nothing (particularly) new from what was already published this afternoon and discussed in interviews this morning and over the weekend.

      Assange was incredibly boring, too.

      • Zorr 24.2.1

        I agree that there is no “smoking gun” so far but it is possibly the best presentation of the case against Key and the GCSB. I think it will be enough to sway voters because it is working very well as highlighting the failings of Key.

        Especially when Glenn, Snowden and Amsterdam are talking. They are strong and persuasive speakers. It would have been made better without Assange.

        • Colonial Viper

          the long period of isolation and limited access to resources has made Assange’s contributions somewhat less relevant, unfortunately. Also it’s been reported that Assange’s health is not great and I think that plus long term house arrest is having an impact on him.

      • karol 24.2.2

        Agree on Assange – boring an unnecessary.
        We needed the Greenwald & Snowden articles from today first. They have been speaking to that.

        • Macro

          Sorry to disagree, but the testimony of Assange was very pertinent to what the others were saying. That is, that the sovereignty of our country is under threat. That needs to be repeated endlessly.
          I repeat the paraphrase from the post above:

          5 eyes is an alliance of intelligence agencies – not nations. There is no consent by the population, just by elites in these nations now monitoring the citizens for their own benefit.

          That it it in a nutshell, the spies are taking from us our liberty and rights to privacy for their own ends and without the consent of the population, aided and abetted by a compliant government.

          • weka

            too much antipathy towards Assange (someone on twitter named the elephant in the room, and only half the audience rose to applaud him). Any of the others could have said what he said.

            • Macro

              Maybe – but it is the testimony of someone who also has his liberty at risk – as well as Snowden – and has acted in the public interest. That adds weight however non engaging his style of address.
              People today are far to eager to look at the style rather than the substance – hence the popularity of Key. Image above all things is the failure of the modern age.

              • weka

                I agree re substance, and I thought about how Hager often doesn’t come across that welk in interviews, however I wasn’t referring to Assange’s poor speaking skills. I think that too many people feel incomfortable about him because of the elephant in the room (not going there tonight myself), despite the good things he has done, and for that reason it was probably a mistake to have him there.

                “Image above all things is the failure of the modern age.”

                Ae, which is why so many people are focussed tonight on the lack of a smoking gun, or the fact that the night should have been about KDC’s email.

              • Macro

                Yes I’m well aware of the other aspect – and no I am not going there either – except to say we have a rule of law that says “innocent until proven guilty” and that seems to be neglected by many who want to discredit what Assange has to offer.

                • Macro

                  The “did Key know or not know of KDC before the raid” is frankly minor stuff to what was revealed tonight.
                  It’s pretty obvious he did.

                  • weka


                    Watching twitter and how angry people are with KDC is just bizarre. On the other hand KDC does misjudge the NZ mindset quite a lot and I don’t think he realises that we don’t really go in for the whole celebrity/big ego thing.

                    • we don’t really go in for the whole celebrity/big ego thing.

                      Not sure I agree with that; How do you explain our reality show PM?

                    • weka

                      That’s entertainment, where we do do celebrity. I’m talking about politics. If KDC wants to be taken seriously by the intelligentsia, he needs to understand NZ culture better.

                • weka

                  Disappointed in you there Macro, you did just go there.

                  Irrespective of all the various views on Assange, my point is that too many people here in NZ feel antipathy towards him and I think that affected things tonight.

          • Chooky

            Macro +100….i thought what Assange had to say was crucially important….our democracy and sovereignty and economic independence is under threat by a bunch of anonymous pirate cowboy intelligence agencies …and Key’s Nact govt is complicit.

    • Macro 24.3

      Yes confused – you have been well and truly fucked over and you never knew it. Sad fool.

  24. Lanthanide 25

    Ah, I see that’s you, prominently in the front row Lynn 🙂

  25. Cant remember by username 26

    KDC’s lawyer isn’t that inspiring is he!

    • mickysavage 26.1

      You reckon? I watched him and I thought he was outstanding. Was his language too complicated for you?

      • Cant remember by username 26.1.1

        yeah that must have been it….

      • sockpuppet 26.1.2

        Shorter MS…..

        He insulted Key therefore he is a godlike being.

        • adam

          Those who hate freedom, and liberty are out in force tonight. One must remember Slatter does not write his own material, these meretricious fools just cut and paste.

          So a D- for the pool of dross your spinning their sock. Try harder.

          • McFlock

            Those who hate freedom, and liberty are out in force tonight.

            well, scheduled event and they can’t afford another tea-tape slide.

          • sockpuppet

            Those who are easily hoodwinked by the Crook from Coatesville are out in force tonight. One must remember that Dotcom’s tame trolls don’t write their own material, these meretricious fools just cut and paste.

            So a D- for the pool of dross your spinning adam. Try harder or dot com will cut the paycheque.

            .. see I can play that game too.


            • McFlock

              so your counter to a claim that you’re just a cut&paste idiot is to cut&paste?

              tres faboo…

  26. weka 27

    In case anyone is curious, that’s half a gig of streaming so far (1.5hrs).

  27. Alistair Connor 28

    Key is in so deep with the NSA, they named xKeyScore after him

  28. gobsmacked 29

    Snowden outstanding, Greenwald and Amsterdam good. USA 3, others 0. KDC should take a back seat.

    The big story here:

    Snowden had the killer evidence – Key has lied about NZers not being subject to mass surveillance, only the willfully ignorant can deny that now.

    As Snowden said (paraphrase), such surveillance might be justified, but it cannot be against the consent of the people. It cannot be hidden from the people.

    If Key said “Yes, we do it, because we have to, for our security”, that would be grounds for an open debate. Ends and means, etc.

    But instead he says “We don’t do it – end of.” That’s false. Beyond argument, now.

    • infused 29.1

      Snowden had no evidence. He was a lacky. He said it was happening here, so it must be happening there too.

      Get fucking real. NZ doesn’t have the capacity to do that.

      • gobsmacked 29.1.1

        So, is Key’s (your) line now that there IS mass surveillance, but it’s by the USA, with NZ’s agreement and that’s OK? Or that it’s by the USA, without NZ’s agreement?

        Both lines are new, so which is it?

        • infused

          Neither are new. Get out from under your rock.

          • gobsmacked

            OK, can you point to a statement by the Prime Minister acknowledging either?

            That’s pretty huge news, and I missed it.

            • infused

              uhh, x key score has been out there for years now. May be pretty huge news for the uninformed like yourself.

      • Hanswurst 29.1.2

        A lackey for whom, exactly? You right-wing trolls are so transparent; when in a tight corner, throw inspecific poo while putting on your best “Mrs Reasonable” face.

      • adam 29.1.3

        infused you really are ill informed, and as such should not pass judgement. Next you will be saying we didn’t help the Americans put spy bases on Antarctica.

      • dave 29.1.4

        nonono infused stop the name calling as snowden said the facts are not yours to dismiss you and your keys smearing wont work snowden is well up the ladder well beyond you or your key he is totally credble and has not axe to grind key is a very small petty person compared to snowden so please no more gutter slater tripe crawl back where you came from

      • Tom Jackson 29.1.5

        They do. You don’t understand how it works.

        Every member of the 5 eyes contributes to the pool of information that can be searched by XKEYSCORE. The network of sensors is designed to cover the entire internet. ECHELON works the same way for satellites – each member has listening stations that contribute to a common pool of information.

        Each country then accesses that pool as it sees fit (independently of the others). With ECHELON each country would have a dictionary of words that it gave the computers to comb the data with. XKEYSCORE does that for the internet, but in a much more powerful way.

        So Key may well be correct that the GCSB doesn’t “access” NZers metadata, as it can certainly opt out of doing so by omitting NZ results from the pool of information (Snowden described how this is done in his answers). Where he’s lying is in denying that it is “collected” by the GCSB, since the GCSB as a contributor to the common pool of data must collect it for the system to work.

        • infused

          Cool. Produce the evidence so I can have a read.

          • Colonial Viper

            Another one who wants shit handed to them on a plate. Not your private researcher. Start by reading the voluminous amounts of Snowden info already published on XKEYSCORE.

      • Murray Olsen 29.1.6

        You forgot to mention that Snowden had operated with NZ intelligence in Hawaii. Go back over the video. You’ll see it.

    • Chris 29.2

      Will key have to resign, then? He’ll just bat the lying accusations away as usual and then go up in the polls. Abbott’s Australia looks better by the second.

  29. MeToo 30

    Karol up north reference by Snowden – my pick is Warkworth.

  30. tricledrown 31

    Con:fused no the US does and you are an enabler!

    • infused 31.1

      So fucking what. Take it up with the US then and encrypt your data. Start being smart instead of being a sheep.

      • McFlock 31.1.1

        which encryption packages haven’t they compromised?
        bull run, I believe it is called.

        • infused

          Lots. Why don’t you do some research?

          • McFlock

            Why don’t you learn the difference between “which” and “how many”?
            Any list of uncompromised encryption tools has some false negatives on it.

            • infused

              … really.

              Just use PGP then.

              Or are you going to quote the conspiracy theory that the govt has a back door in to it?

              • McFlock


                I’m just going to point out that the NSA has an exposed program to exploit intentional vulnerabilities in some encryption products, so therefore without an advanced degree in programming and cryptographic mathematics one has no way of knowing whether one’s data is genuinely protected by any given product.

                And the word of some pseudonym who thinks that an eyewitness claim (from someone who has been demonstrated as a credible source) doesn’t count as “evidence” is not equivalent to an advanced degree.

      • tricledrown 31.1.2

        Con;fused Contradicting your own lies trying to pull the wool then admitting than we are being spied on!
        Lost the plot Poor we johnny won’t be happy with you not able to follow script!
        Off to spying and lying school for you!

  31. Lanthanide 32

    That’s it? So KDC isn’t going to produce his evidence Key lied?

    • weka 32.1

      something’s meant to be coming out tomorrow?

    • Chris 32.2

      Doesn’t look like it. ipredict’s got stock on evidence key lied about knowledge of Dotcom down to 11% last time I looked. Been up and down and all over the place today but has definitely bottomed out after tonight’s performance. Dotcom at the select committee said to key “I know you know”. Hope something comes out soon.

  32. karol 33

    So what happened to KDC’s email & the promised affidavit?

    • Zorr 33.1

      That was promised for tomorrow (if I remember what was written today correctly)

      • Lanthanide 33.1.1

        Any source for that? I’ve been reading most stuff this afternoon and didn’t see any mention of that.

        • weka

          I’m trying to remember, I heard it today too, sounded like there was a change of plan.

          edit, nope, looks like it was yesterday,


          I guess because the email got leaked early they didn’t go with that. Or it’s something legal to do with KDC’s defense.

          • weka

            Russell Brown ‏@publicaddress 2 mins
            So supposedly the email didn’t feature because it’s going to the Parliamentary Privileges Committee. #MoT

            But really, they should have said that tonight to let people know.

            • Puddleglum

              They did say it but, at the time, I didn’t know what they were talking about.

              I forget who said it but it was something like ‘you may have read the story in the Herald today, well the IP/Mana take it seriously and so have sent it to the Parliamentary privileges committee’.

              I wondered what the ‘story in the Herald’ was about at the time – should have guessed as it’s pretty obvious. But they didn’t say ‘the story about the email’.

            • Matthew Hooton

              That is absolute nonsense:
              A) they already released it to Herald
              B) there is no privileges committee at present
              C) even if there were, that wouldn’t stop them talking about the “email”

        • Zorr

          Sorry, you’re right. It appears that it is meant to be revealed tonight.

          Apparently there is a press conference that was planned shortly where it is intended to be revealed.

          • Lanthanide

            NZHerald live update said press conference at 9pm, so that might be it.

            stuff.co.nz live reporting:

            Harre is telling media that it is “vitally important” to consider the information revealed tonight in the context of the dirty politics scandal. Tells media it will not be along press conference.

            Dotcom says the email released today is “clear”. Amsterdam steps in for him, repeatedly, and says the issue has been referred to Parliament’s speaker and they must now let that process, not yet underway, run its course rather than discussing it at length now.

            Dotcom won’t say how he got the email, citing the same reason.

            Harre then steps in and offers the same excuse. “The onus is now on the speaker to act, the onus is not on Kim Dotcom.”

            So that’s it then. Hardly a smoking gun.

            • weka

              “So that’s it then. Hardly a smoking gun.”

              You mean about KDC’s claim that the PM knew about him before the raid and therefore lied, right?

              Because the rest of the evening was one big smoking gun (although it’s crap and inappropriate metaphor).

              • Lanthanide

                I am specifically talking about the KDC ‘proof’, yes.

                But the rest of the evening wasn’t anything that wasn’t published earlier today, except possibly Snowden claiming there’s US spybase in New Zealand (“Auckland” and “up north”) as well as the (minor) point about the checkboxes. But neither of those points are particularly interesting and neither had any actual proof to back them up, just claims.

                Also there was nothing at all about trade partners or other countries being spied on, which is apparently what the government was afraid of.

                All-in-all I think the media is going to pronounce this a damp squib.

                • weka

                  kind of misses the point. Putting the information out online and then following up with a very good explanation (from Greenwald and to a lesser extent Snowdon) was a great strategy. I learnt a lot tonight.

                  Do you not think that now there are definite issues for the PM to answer to? (re the GCSB, not KDC).

                  • Lanthanide

                    Yes, but nothing that’s going to do any significant damage to his electoral chances.

                    • weka

                      this is way bigger than Key’s electoral chances.

                    • wtl

                      I don’t think anything is going to do significant damage to his electoral chances. Key could be caught shooting a kitten, but all he needs to do is claim that “Labour made me to it” and (apparently) people will believe him and decide he didn’t do anything wrong.

                    • Lanthanide

                      @ weka – can’t say it means much to me if he ends up power for the next 3 years anyway.

                    • weka

                      so if too many NZers stay home and don’t vote then everything that has just been talked about is meaningless? what?

                      Key’s ‘electoral chances’ are in fact going down. The only way that he wins this election is with a low voter turnout. We need to stop buying into the MSM narrative.

                    • The ‘smoking gun’ – I don’t like the term either – was that Key appears to have lied about the GCSB doing mass surveillance and about the GCSB Act not empowering/making legal such mass surveillance.

                      There was documented evidence to support the claim that Key misled the New Zealand public over the nature of the intelligence surveillance to which they are subject.

                      That’s a far worse lie than whether or not he knew Kim Dotcom prior to the raid.

                    • weka

                      +1000 Need to keep that put there.

                      The first hour and a half was incredible. The rest I could have done without, and I hope the first bit doesn’t get lost in the tedium of Assange or the KDC stuff later.

                      First time I’ve been disappointed in Harre.

                    • Lanthanide

                      @ Puddleglum: All of that ‘evidence’ was published this afternoon, and to my reading still leaves wiggleroom.

                      Key can say “yes the cable was tapped, but we never actually did surveillance”, which Snowden’s presentation slides don’t actually refute. All they said is that phase 1, the tapping was complete, and they were *going* to begin surveillance *after* the law enabling them to do it was published. But as Key says, the law to enable it was never passed because the law that was passed doesn’t allow for it.

                      Snowden didn’t have any evidence that there was mass surveillance going on beyond simply his words and recollections that it did.

                    • That’s wrong. It’s technically impossible to stop it being done given Snowden’s explanation of how it works. Even if NZers metadata was not being looked at by the GCSB, it is still being collected through interceptions in NZ and being made available to the other 4 members. The collected information from everywhere is held in common.

                      The system can’t work the way it is supposed to if large portions of the internet remain untapped. ECHELON worked the same way: every member had access to all the feeds, but each would use its own dictionaries independently of the others to mine those feeds.

                      The GCSB can choose not to monitor NZers via XKEYSCORE, but it cannot choose not to have their metadata made available to the common pool. The NZ government is allowing NZers metadata collected in NZ by its NZ connection to be accessed by its intelligence partners, even if it does not access them itself (dubious in the extreme).

                    • Lanthanide

                      @ Tom Jackson – and the *evidence* for all of that happening is what, exactly? Snowden said that’s what happens? Does he not have any documents that corroborate that?

                    • wtl

                      All of that ‘evidence’ was published this afternoon, and to my reading still leaves wiggleroom.

                      I really don’t know what you were expecting to see. There’s pretty much always going to be ‘wiggleroom’, simply because very very few pieces of evidence are unabled to be refuted in any way. Like I said on another thread – most things are not proven by a single smoking gun, instead they are proven to a certain degree of certainty but small incremental pieces of evidence that add up.

                    • weka

                      +1 wtl

                      the whole smoking gun thing is a meme that comes from our Mainstream Mediafied political sphere, and probably Hollywood tv and movies, where we need this big dramatic thing to make us all feel something Important has happened.

                      Have to say that I felt like something important happend tonight anyway. As Hager said, the ‘lack of smoking gun’ meme is pretty much what was said about Dirty Politics. It misses the point and is used to marginalise issues by the right.

                    • The evidence is all the Snowden documents published over the last year or so. As for XKEYSCORE, its existence is acknowledged by the NSA. There doesn’t seem to be any really meaningful denial from the usual suspects. Even Wikipedia has an article on it.


                      All Snowden appears to me to have been saying is that this system works on the same principles as ECHELON did, and that would mean that NZ data is collected and shared.

                    • @Lanthanide 9:34pm

                      Well, the GCSB seemed to think that the passing of the GCSB Act would provide them with the ability to move to phase 2 of ‘Speargun’ (why on earth are these things given codenames?)

                      Key was assuring New Zealanders the legislation was not aimed at allowing mass surveillance right from the very first drafting of the Act.

                      Yet, as the presiding minister, he must have known (a) that phase 1 had been implemented and (b) that, from the GCSB’s perspective, the metadata probes awaiting phase 2 were dependent upon him passing the legislation.

                    • Lanthanide

                      @weka & Tom Jackson:
                      Key said he would resign if kiwis were mass surveilled. Snowden says they were and suggests they are, but has no proof. Key won’t resign based on what we saw tonight, so it’s a grand case of over promise and under deliver. That is how the general public will see it and how the media will largely report it. This could actually end up being damaging to the left, if only by association with mana.

                    • wtl

                      Key said he would resign if kiwis were mass surveilled. Snowden says they were and suggests they are, but has no proof. Key won’t resign based on what we saw tonight, so it’s a grand case of over promise and under deliver.

                      Do you really think that Key was ever going to resign? WHATEVER piece of evidence there was, he would have said ‘its fake’ or ‘it was just a plan, it was never implemented’ or ‘it was implemented but no one actually did any real spying’.

                    • Snowden says they were and suggests they are, but has no proof.

                      He has as much proof as he had in the other cases (the NSA documents). Has the NSA denied that those documents are genuine? As far as I know, they have not. Hence, the documents that describe the tapping of the cable and the GCSB waiting for the new legislation are reasonably considered genuine. Ask yourself, why would the USA be pursuing Snowden if the documents weren’t genuine?

                      I think you might have placed too much stock in Key’s supposed rebuttal via the release of classified GCSB documents. If you look around, the general consensus is that the programs mentioned in those documents have absolutely nothing to do with what Snowden was talking about. So you have to ask yourself why the PM released documents that to any person informed about the issue are an obvious smokescreen.

                      Snowden and Greenwald are already reporting from a position of credibility on this issue. The reportage on the NSA has already won a Pulitzer Prize, which would be extremely odd if their material was mere speculation, and the response of the US government demonstrates that their reporting is factual.

                      I’m at a loss why you can’t accept their account of things, given that they have been reporting this for over a year and nobody has managed to gainsay their credibility?

    • adam 33.2

      Did KDC say that or was that the Herald? Oh the Herald is a baston of truthfulness, how could the possibly get anything wrong…

  33. coolas 34

    Absolutely pure dead brilliant!

    Wake up New Zealand. John Key is a traitor to our freedom in the pocket of the USA. And the sooner he’s shamed and leaves the country the better – odious little creep.

  34. adam 35

    Well that cements my vote.

    • sockpuppet 35.1

      Yes indeed I thought the Internet party was pants before tonight now it has been confirmed that they are not only pants but mega ego retards as well.

      Green all the way.

    • Alistair Connor 35.2

      Fine, but what will the soft-centre of NZ politics make of all this? The Key-loving caramellows?

      They are no doubt OK with JK watching over us. BUT :
      * Are they OK with his big US brother doing it for us?
      * Are they OK with him lying to us about it?

      These are the questions of the week. All the rest is literature, for the politically literate.

  35. Rosie 36

    I’m really scared now. It looks like something out of 1984. I am seriously worried about this country.

  36. TheContrarian 38

    I cared not for the Dotcom part of this evenings events. He can fuck right off.

    But Snowden I have a ton of respect for, his statements were extremely concerning and chilling.

    Some serious allegations raised that demand answers.

    • Anne 38.1

      Snowden has a crystal clear brain. Knew exactly what he was talking about. NSA lost a top notch performer there. Serves them right.

      • Colonial Viper 38.1.1

        It was reputed that Snowden’s work colleagues regarded him as a true genius in a work place that was full of them.

    • Chooky 38.2

      Dotcom’s lawyer Robert Amsterdam is brilliant!

  37. dave 39

    a new government is just the start we need a full royal commison is to the key government not a key jack up full royal commison nothing less we have been sold down the river

    • MOT 39.1

      Wouldn’t a Royal Commission be risky? UK is one of 5 eyes. We need to look at an independent country to run a commission

      • Colonial Viper 39.1.1

        Get Scotland to do it after the weekend.

        (BTW I think you’ve got the mechanics of how a Royal Commission works slightly wonky)

  38. Mr Key today acknowledged the GCSB had indeed tapped into the cable, but for the purposes of a cybersecurity programme.

    However, Mr Key said concerns the project would be perceived as mass surveillance led to it being scaled back to a much narrower programme.


    Read that a few times – the cable was tapped – fact.

    • Puddleglum 40.1

      Well, the guy from the Cook Strait Cable (company?) claimed they had never been tapped because they would have known about it.

      That comment was relayed by Mary Wilson on Checkpoint tonight – it was in response to Checkpoint’s question to them.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 40.1.1

        You just put the interception in building next door- lo and behold company has space for servers next to end point of cable in Akoranga Dr/ Northcote Rd

      • weka 40.1.2

        “Well, the guy from the Cook Strait Cable (company?) claimed they had never been tapped because they would have known about it.”

        Did you hear Snowdon’s response? All other countries in the world have had their cables tapped by the NSA, how did NZ manage to not?

        • Puddleglum

          Yes, I did hear Snowden’s comment about that.

          Now with Key confirming that it had been tapped it clearly shows that what the person from the Southern Cross Cable said was wrong (not Cook Strait, of course – my apologies).

          So that’s one ‘denial’ that has been shown to be wrong/ill-founded despite being said unequivocally.

          • weka

            I hope someone manages a good synopsis of points of Greenwald and Snowden’s talks. Where does this go next? That’s what we have to talk about tomorrow.

        • marty mars

          We need a OIA/question on why concerns were there that it could be ‘perceived’ as mass surveillance. It obviously was mass surveillance because why adjust to a narrower focus if not. I am calling this as the bit that will drop key.

  39. infused 41

    Well, this election is going to go down in history.

    Never seen anything like it.

    This was the biggest fizzer, as predicted. Kim even got to advertise mega.co.nz

  40. cogito 42


    NZ owes everyone tonight a massive debt of gratitude.

  41. weka 43

    Sounds like the shit is going down at the press conference

    • weka 43.1

      sorry, reverse order,

      Russell Brown ‏@publicaddress 7 mins
      “In the past, Patrick, you have let New Zealanders down.” Dotcom has a go at Paddy. And now it’s over. #MoT

      Retweeted by Danyl Mclauchlan
      Brook Sabin ‏@BrookSabin 8 mins
      Kim Dotcom gives @patrickgowernz a lecture in journalism.

      Toby Manhire ‏@toby_etc 8 mins
      That press conference extraordinary. Kim Dotcom’s instructions on media priorities – “you need to do your job”, twice – not going down well

      Retweeted by Toby Manhire
      Brook Sabin ‏@BrookSabin 12 mins
      This press conference is going South. Lots of yelling going on.

      Danyl Mclauchlan ‏@danylmc 11 mins
      I’d give up an eternity of Assange for twenty seconds of the press conference live-streamed

      Russell Brown ‏@publicaddress 12 mins
      Metro editor Simon Wilson arguing with Greenwald, accusing him of disrupting the “our democratic process”. It’s getting hot in here. #MoT

      • weka 43.1.1

        Russell Brown ‏@publicaddress 17 mins
        They’ve fucked this up. The important Snowden stuff will be trumped by the non-Dotcom reveal.

        Giovanni Tiso ‏@gtiso 14 mins
        @publicaddress Yes. But a minimally competent journalism corps could look past that somehow and ask the questions that need asking.

    • I would have liked it to descend into fighting. There are any number of smug journos who would be improved by a clipped ear. 😉

      • weka 43.2.1

        partial video

        • karol

          Interesting. Thanks. It looked like KDC got up and walked away when the email was mentioned.

          Something has happened.

          • lprent

            No I was there. The email had been raised earlier. It’d already been said several times that he was responding to the last question.

            • karol

              OK. Thanks, Lynn.

              Did KDC or Amsterdam confirm that the email was going to be KDC’s big reveal tonight?

          • Tom Jackson

            Well, the only fact we know of is that the I/M Party was responsible for submitting it to the privileges committee, not Kim Dotcom. That suggests Laila knows something or lacked confidence in it and made him give up on it.

            I’m sure I saw him tweet in person about it earlier today, but that tweet appears to have been deleted. His retweet of the Herald story about it remains. It sounds like he’s been gagged.

            • karol

              That makes sense. I doubt that KDC would have been going to publish it without it having been run past his lawyers well before now.

              Today may have been the first time IMP had seen it.

              • You’re right about the lawyers. Surely they wouldn’t let him bring it up it without proof. Perhaps KDC went off the reservation and leaked it himself despite advice, although that seems odd to me.

                I can’t make any sense of it at all, really. It just seems such an obvious own goal, although KDC did downplay his reveal last week.

              • I read that Hone took it to privileges committee. Perhaps he put his foot down.

  42. weka 44

    Dirty Politics ‏@DirtyPoliticsNZ 8 mins
    Lambasting the lack of ‘smoking gun’ at #MoT sounds incredibly similar to the initial insults directed at the release of #DirtyPolitics

  43. karol 45

    So, apparently the press conference has been getting fractious.

    Tweet from Brook Sabin

    This press conference is going South. Lots of yelling going on.

    Tweet from Russell Brown:

    Metro editor Simon Wilson arguing with Greenwald, accusing him of disrupting the “our democratic process”. It’s getting hot in here. #MoT

  44. That was a bit of a mess. It’s silly to promise that you will show that John Key lied about knowing K.com before the raid, and then not to touch that topic at all, considering evidence about it had been leaked that day. Giving the email to the privileges committee seems a sure fire way of making sure nothing is seen of it until after the election, when it will be of no use.

    Waffling on in generalities about surveillance, trade and world politics was also pointless. Snowden and Greenwald kept their sections relatively specific and it worked. The others wanted to paint a big picture that wasn’t necessary and probably counterproductive. It’s symbolic of what is wrong with the Internet Party: for a party supposedly about internet rights, it’s tried to shoehorn in a list of left wing concerns that make such a small party too cumbersome and complicated to appeal to many.

    • Lanthanide 47.1


      • Tom Jackson 47.1.1

        Well, I agree with you about that.

        • weka

          It was not good that they didn’t explain re KDC’s big reveal. And I agree the second half was off and probably unecessary. But let’s not lose sight of the first half and how important it is.

          It’s ok to not get the whole night perfect.

          • karol

            Yes. Amsterdam was interesting. But he as wondering off topic, and it blunted the impact of the other stuff.

            The email slam then fizzle is strange. And strange they didn’t say very much at the MoT about it or why it went to the privileges committee instead of featuring in tonight’s MoT.

            Amsterdam makes a statement about it at about 1 hr 55 mins into the video. He’s basically asking for a full enquiry, but that it won’t happen til after the election.

            • lprent

              This got raised in the press room.

              Essentially Laila said that it had been put in front of the only court that it could be – the privileges committee. Essentially the only body that can censure a MP raising this kind of stuff in the house is the house itself.

              Also I think that one email is just the tip of the iceberg. It sounds like there is a whole conversation backing that. As we all know by now, when one email lands in the wrong hands then usually there are a bunch of them been copied.

              • I hope you’re right Lynn.

                But I can’t see why they should care about Key being in trouble with parliament when it would be much more effective to release it with proof and force him into an impossible position on the eve of the election in the court of public opinion.

                All that stowing it away does is make Key’s denials look credible and the email look fake (which it might well be).

                • McFlock

                  although it might affect the post-election horsetrading – winston wouldn’t be all that impressed.

                • weka

                  Tom, tomorrow will you be talking to people about KDC’s PR failure, or what Greenwald and Snowden revealed?

                  • Look I speak for myself. I don’t think I’ll be talking to anyone about it – mainly because none of my colleagues will be voting to keep the government.

                    I personally believe that providing proof that the email was genuine would have been a king hit of the likes never seen before in politics. Key would have spent the rest of the week being hounded by media and the public because it would have not only been a case of lying, but of abuse of state power for political ends.

                    The Snowden stuff was no surprise to me. I’ve been following it since the start and I already knew about XKEYSCORE and how it worked. Since I found out about it, I assumed as a matter of course that NZ was participating. As far as I’m concerned Greenwald made a convincing case that my assumption was correct.

                    But people don’t care about surveillance. Politics is about personalities. Exposing Key as a jerk would do more to change the government.

                    • weka

                      Lots of people care about surveillance. Did you not see all the activity last year during the GCSB debate?

                      The beauty of the MoT is that it has presented some pretty complex issues in a form that is (a) accessible to non-geeks and (b) reaches the mainstream. Sure, people on the edge have been going on about this stuff for a long time. But this is different, it’s not smack bang in the faces of middle NZ. That is hugely significant beyond what happens on Saturday (and I say that as someone who believes this election is the most important one of my nearly 50 years).

                      I don’t think we have enough information to understand about the email yet. Sure, keep thinking about it and talking about it, but why let it distract us from where the movement and energy is today?

                    • Not enough IMHO. The “nothing to hide; nothing to fear” nonsense is disturbingly widespread. Too many people think that spying is used solely to make John Minto’s life difficult, or to watch people like lprent’s niece (the one who doesn’t like battery chickens) and they approve of this.

                      This is a long term issue, and I’m pretty sure it won’t save us from another hopeless Nushunal government. But I agree it’s not going to go away unless people keep talking about it.

                    • weka

                      I suppose I don’t see the primary purpose as being affecting this particular election, though it would be awesome if it did. What I’m more interested in is how it will change the culture, and how the media will respond esp post-DP.

                      I also think the ‘people don’t care’ meme is self-reinforcing.

          • Tom Jackson

            The problem is optics. He’s been promising that for months and hardly talking about the other stuff. Then it doesn’t happen.

            Weird if you ask me. Perhaps they discovered that it is a fake and did this to maintain some plausibility until the election. Other than that, it makes zero sense to me.

            Yes, the other stuff is incredibly important, but the average person didn’t get what they have been promised for months now – evidence that Key lied about Dotcom.

            • karol

              Well, they’ve half got it. But it depends on the authenticity of the email. And what happened to the affidavit?

            • weka

              “Yes, the other stuff is incredibly important, but the average person didn’t get what they have been promised for months now – evidence that Key lied about Dotcom.”

              And this is where we are let down by the MSM. Maybe KDC and the IP made mistakes tonight, but the responsibility for conveying the important stuff is not theirs, it’s the media’s. Let’s not forget who the real enemy is here (sorry, just watched part 2 of the Hunger Games).

            • Lanthanide

              The whole thing started as Kim promising the evidence that Key knew who he was. Everything else was added later.

    • Grantoc 47.2

      Lets hope this is marks the end of the Internet party, dotcom, laila harre et al

      • marty mars 47.2.1

        yeah then we can all live happily without the truth hurting our discredited liar heroes – oh why can’t we all live on PlanetKey it’s not fair 🙁

      • lprent 47.2.2

        Very unlikely. The room was full and very enthusiastic. We were amongst the last to get in and the line was long behind us.

        You don’t usually find groups that can fill halls like that disappearing. Note that I have about as much time for IMP as I do for NZF (very little). However I am a realist. If a party has a constituency, then they have a party. If they have a couple of reasonably easy seats to contend for, then they are likely to keep growing that constituency beyond 5%

        But by all means, jerk yourself to sleep with your wee fantasy.

    • Sans Cle 47.3

      Can I ask, is there evidence/indication that Kim Dotcom had anything to do with that leaked email today, or is he contesting that it was his? Was that a smokescreen, and that is why he is taking issue with it?

      • karol 47.3.1

        It’s explained here:

        When asked by reporters afterwards why he didn’t talk about his claim that Mr Key knew of him before the raid on his mansion, Mr Dotcom said: ”I think the evidence is pretty clear today in the Herald”.

        ”It’s going through the official process in Parliament, we’re going to give the Prime Minister the due process that he denied me.”

        Dotcom said he believed the email was ”100 per cent true”.

        • weka

          that doesn’t really address the question of whether KDC released the email or not.

          • karol

            No. And they’ve glossed over the email – as with Amsterdam’s statement at the MoT. He buried a reference to it within a statement about Dirty Politics, and the need for a full investigation into the Key government.

            My feeling, is something happened between a day or two ago when KDC was talking about his coming big reveal concerning his case and when Key first knew about him, and this evening. It’s a little strange.

            • weka

              theories floating round on twitter, maybe it’s the feeds I’m on but shame about people letting their personal needs for something get in the way of a bloody important event

            • lprent

              1. Mostly it was the media putting that spin on it.
              2. Lawyers worried about the impact on his case (said several times) would have advised against it.
              3. Internet party would have wanted the big issue of mass surveillance targeted rather than a single victim.

              • wtl

                3. Internet party would have wanted the big issue of mass surveillance targeted rather than a single victim.

                Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Whatever the authenticity of the email, I can easily see how the whole Key/Dotcom issue was pushed into the background once Greenwald and Snowden were involved. So it makes sense that they chose to not discuss the email at the event itself, it would have just been a distraction from the more important issue of mass surveillance.

          • Sans Cle

            Thanks, it answers my question, that he endorses it and stands behind the assertation that Key got him into the country to extradite him, but I still don’t get why it was released by “a source” from within the Herald, and not by Dotcom himself?
            I also think that it was good not to mention it tonight, as I think the focus should be on what Snowdon said, and that should be what Key needs to answer. There are a lot of GCSB issues to unpick, and am glad it didn’t get too sidetracked by KDC.

  45. johnm 48

    Always said it: Key is a NorteAmericano Gringo Yankey. Pretty bl**dy obvious all along. Their john is a U$ asset. 🙁

  46. Is that all the convicted fraudster, the alleged rapist, the US traitor protected by dictatorial regime that shoots down civilian aircraft and hired help fronting as an impartial journalist have

    God help the left, what and embarrassment, I guesse a nice little love fest for all who turned up tonight, fish and chip paper by tomorrow night. This little comedy will do more harm to the left who have totally mis read the nz populace

  47. tsmithfield 50

    Free advice for KDC: Under-promise and over-deliver. Not the opposite.

  48. weka 51

    So when people complain about foreigners interferring with our democracy, do they mean the problem is the foreign bit? ie it’s ok when the VRWC does it, because they’re all keewees.

  49. Immiscible 52

    I.m not sure how to reply to a specific person, so just chucking this in the thread. But in terms of the Southern Cross cable guys saying that they would know if the cable had been tapped, it may be that they are actually getting paid for the service.

    • Puddleglum 52.1

      Thanks for the link immiscible.

      From the link:

      A Telecom spokesman cited the company’s contract with residential customers, which tells them it will pass on their information without permission if it believes it is legally required to do so or if it is necessary “to help maintain the law”.

      Telecom Users Association chief executive Paul Brislen said revelations about US interception of internet traffic meant “we have to assume that all our communications are intercepted“.

      He said internet and telecoms companies had to comply with US rules or be shut out of lucrative contracts.

      Mr Brislen believed the cable from Auckland to Los Angeles was secure but said intelligence agencies would access information beyond the landing stations.

    • cogito 52.2

      Re tapping into fibre optic cables….


      “Fairfax Media has previously reported on the Australian Signals Directorate’s involvement in the X-Keyscore program and the ASD’s cooperation with Singapore’s Ministry of Defence to tap submarine cables in South East Asia.

      The Australian Signals Directorate has also acquired sophisticated technology designed to tap high-speed fibre optic data cables including those that connect Australia with Asia and North America”

  50. Eralc 53

    Well, after all that, I’m no longer an undecided voter. Thanks Kim Dotcom and Co.

  51. karol 54

    The PM definitely has questions to answer following today and tonight.

    Wall Street Journal:

    Ex-U.S. intelligence employee Edward Snowden accused New Zealand’s Prime Minister John Key of deceiving the public about the mass surveillance of the nation’s citizens by the country’s domestic spy agency.

    In an article written for The Intercept website, Mr. Snowden said that in his former role, he routinely came across the communications of New Zealanders that had been captured by a mass-surveillance tool he claimed was used by the Government Communications Security Bureau, or GCSB.

  52. rich the other 55

    Great night for Key
    Bring it on next Saturday , National will govern alone .
    Judging by the comments on this site many of you are very disappointed .

    • One Anonymous Bloke 55.1

      You will see what you want to see. Meanwhile, friends I have never seen engaged in politics before are expressing their feelings on social media.

      No-one likes tax-payer funded voyeurism, it seems.

  53. outofbed 56

    Summary fromThe Guardian

    New Zealand’s election campaign collided with the biggest questions of the internet age on Monday – here’s how this remarkable day went down:

    Documents provided by the whistleblower Edward Snowden reveal that the New Zealand government worked to implement a secret mass surveillance program code-named “Speargun” throughout 2012 and 2013.
    It followed an admission at the weekend by the New Zealand prime minister, John Key, that his government considered a mass-spying proposal after a series of cyber attacks. Key says the proposed surveillance made him “uncomfortable” and that he halted it in March 2013.
    Edward Snowden has weighed in, warning New Zealanders that he was personally able to search their intercepted internet traffic while working as an NSA analyst in Hawai’i. “If you live in New Zealand, you are being watched,” he wrote.
    Key responded by releasing his own declassified documents, which he says prove that no mass spying ever took place.
    Snowden has appeared via live stream at Moment of Truth, an Internet party event at Auckland Town Hall intended to publicise the Speargun revelations. Snowden told the audience that the NSA’s reach extended even to Auckland, where he claimed the agency operated a spy facility.
    Internet entrepreneur Kim Dotcom has pledged to end any mass surveillance of New Zealanders if he fledgling political party wins the balance of power at this Saturday’s general election. “We’ll close one of the five eyes,” Dotcom said, in reference to the intelligence-sharing agreement between Australia, the US, the UK, New Zealand and Canada.

  54. Redzone 57

    KDC might be a clown who couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery but hes done us a service exposing this shit and the compulsive lying that’s being going on.

    Snowdon was excellent tonight and Greenwald has been solid the last few days.

    This is being reported in the SMH, Wall st times and Guardian ie some of the ‘eyes’ who fathom just how significant this all is. Damning for key. Let’s see you bullshit your way out of this one.

  55. NSA Versus Yahoo, and how it operates. Yahoo fined US$250000 per day for not handing over data for Prism.

  56. weka 59

    Casey Lucas ‏@CaseyDownUnder 7 mins
    The @smh coverage: very punchy, strong language, definitive statements. NZ media: lots of weasel words, “he claimed,” “he said.” #MoT


  57. cogito 60

    Great event.

    Very disappointed in the low standard of comment on both TV1 late news and Paul Henry Show. Michelle Boag was an utter embarrassment.

    There needs to be a change of government, and a fresh approach.

    **Vote for change on Saturday. It is more important than ever.**

  58. small thing 61

    An example of a PM and Leader of our country = Norm Kirk
    An example of a PM who is not a leader of our country =John Key

  59. Tracey 62

    So NSA called it Speagun and we called it CORTEX. Getting us to do CORTEX was what they called Speargun?

    “he furrowed outer layer of gray matter in the cerebrum of the brain, associated with the higher brain functions, as voluntary movement, coordination of sensory information, learning and memory, and the expression of individuality.”

    karol, you were 100% right in the comment yesterday about “business case”.

    Why would the cost be redacted, how is that a national security issue do you think?

  60. North 63

    Because cost would be broadly indicative of how much this government is ‘into’ the whole notion, how much of the New Zealand peoples’ money this government is prepared to spend against the New Zealand people. You can bet if the figures weren’t startling they wouldn’t have been redacted. They’d be used to reinforce “Nah nah nah…….it was one element in a spectrum of matters which we killed, simple as that.”

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