The kids aren’t alright

64 comments on “The kids aren’t alright ”

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1. mik e 1

   15 August 2011 at 10:08 am

   Twitter facebook email, etc each other to register to vote
2. Lanthanide 2

   15 August 2011 at 10:09 am

   “And let’s talk about a little blue card to mark you out as a beneficiary when you buy your food. No, it won’t get you a job but it will make you ashamed.”

   My boyfriend pointed out that if you want to make a step towards the riots we’ve seen in the UK, giving beneficiaries identifying cards is good one to take.
   • Colonial Viper 2.1

     15 August 2011 at 10:16 am

     Anyone out on parole should get a different coloured card.

     And anyone with a net worth of over $1M should get a different coloured card again. Oh they already have those.
   • Zorr 2.2

     15 August 2011 at 10:20 am

     Personally I’ve started shopping for the Black bloc chic look because I get the feeling it is going to be in fashion in another year or two…
     • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

       15 August 2011 at 10:23 am

       +1

       I have some stuff from a while back which I am going to pull out of storage.
   • Deadly_NZ 2.3

     15 August 2011 at 8:37 pm

     Blue??? I heard more like Bright Orange to really stand out so as to make the discrimination easier, imagine it you get your groceries, and when you carefully show your bright orange beneficiary card, you get abused by all and sundry. Yep and they can’t even vote.
3. freedom 3

   15 August 2011 at 10:32 am

   i only wear black anyway, and that’s only till they make something darker
4. vto 4

   15 August 2011 at 10:38 am

   Do they seriously think this welfare reform will work? Especially re stopping them buying booze and fags..

   And if they do then why not do the same for the adults – after all it is the adults who have the drinking problem.
5. Bill 5

   15 August 2011 at 10:41 am

   The ‘food card’ is already in circulation for all beneficiaries. If you need an emergency food grant, the card gets ‘loaded’ and you have three days to spend what ever $ amount has been designated to it. (No alcohol or tobacco)

   Seems to me a small step to go from 16 and 17 year olds having a part of their dole always put on the card and rolling out the scheme to encompass everyone. Targetting 16 and 17 year olds might best be seen as a pilot scheme.

   And since it is not necessarily WINZ who are going to administer the systems attached to benefits of 16 and 17 year olds, odds are that privatisation of welfare is very much on the cards.

   What was that Australian religious outfit again?
   • Colonial Viper 5.1

     15 August 2011 at 10:45 am

     All in the vein of the US Food Stamps (“Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Programme”).
     • joe90 5.1.1

       15 August 2011 at 6:43 pm

       All in the vein of the US Food Stamps (“Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Programme”).

       I’m surprised that there’s been no sightings of strapping young bucks buying T bone steaks.
   • freedom 5.2

     15 August 2011 at 11:18 am

     Ticking off checklists, perky jobs for mates and Whanou Ora is front of the cue i reckon. Youth are not a one size fits all problem and many are good kids doing what they can when there is sod all they can do

     i want to know how the rent payments are meant to work? Some rent is weekly, some fortnightly, some pay monthly. Of course you must remember that youth especially, change flats so often the administration costs will be huge or are the card holders going to get ‘authhorised accommodatrion providers’ also?

     The landlords want one deposit from the flat , in total, into their rent books not a hodgepodge from anywhere and everywhere that raises their accountants’ fees. There is also the tenancy bond issues? The hire purchase agreements people had before they lost their job,? 43,000 freshly unemployed since national came to office isn’t it?

     The list goes on and this is before we look at the growing costs of looking for work. Costs of travel for the commute, which we hear a lot about from people who luckily have a job . How about appropriate clothes for an interview? The production and dissemination of CV’s and the like?

     These all are costs the beneficiary has to magic from somewhere.

     oh yeah i almost forgot
     National . . . Where are the jobs ?
   • ak 5.3

     15 August 2011 at 11:51 am

     You’re onto it Bill. Mission Australia. Been sniffing around NACT for years, which might explain the current benny-bash. And what’s about to be drip-fed up to November.

     Here’s CEO Toby Hall, bought to you via Salomon Bros, uncannily Key-like in appearance, style and substance.

     I believe linking the receipt of benefits to basic things like school attendance or the payment of rent can make sense.

     I was pleased to see during the election campaign Labor commit to a tightening of the compliance regime as well as the potential to suspend a jobseeker’s income support on their first failure to meet their obligations.

     http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=20743
   • Vicky32 5.4

     15 August 2011 at 4:07 pm

     The ‘food card’ is already in circulation for all beneficiaries. If you need an emergency food grant, the card gets ‘loaded’ and you have three days to spend what ever $ amount has been designated to it. (No alcohol or tobacco)

     I didn’t know that… Oh, bad!
     • J. Andel 5.4.1

       15 August 2011 at 6:31 pm

       Yeah, they’re not hard to get around either. Buy your mate $50 worth of food, and then receive $40 from him, win-win.
6. mik e 6

   15 August 2011 at 10:50 am

   How about home grown ,Bennett has already given Destiny $880,000 along with the exclusive brethren. their about the only non govt charity organizations that have any spare capacity , all the other NGOS are over worked and suffering from burnout. from funding cuts and more demand for their services!
   • Dave 6.1

     15 August 2011 at 11:18 am

     Hey Mike, I’m not being snide or a smart-arse, but have you got links for that information? If its true, I’ll be getting out my soapbox!!
     • mik e 6.1.1

       15 August 2011 at 3:46 pm

       Dave just Google up destiny church payouts paula bennett she let it slip about 3 weeks ago
     • Deadly_NZ 6.1.2

       15 August 2011 at 8:56 pm

       Link as asked There you go Mik e

       http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10730987
   • Deadly_NZ 6.2

     15 August 2011 at 8:55 pm

     Yeah and now his bloody wife is out to ruin the maori womans welfare league probably wants it to be an arm of the Destiny cult.
7. Policy Parrot 7

   15 August 2011 at 10:53 am

   Three simple truths about the Key welfare reforms.

   1/. They wont work on those targeted – i.e. the whole rhetoric which claims that the bludgers will finally have to get off their arses, stop breeding for a business etc, is a croc. It is not hard to see resourceful young people coming to arrangements with others that will defeat the intent of the restricted card – I mean come on, they already do this to buy alcohol and cigarettes in the first fucking place.

   2/. Totally ignores the main problem, directing attention away from the fact that this government has failed to create jobs – not even crappy jobs. Its all very well having tough measures for young beneficiaries, but surely they should be able to escape these by getting a job. If there are no jobs, then there are no incentives. In fact John Key claims “I don’t believe its the government’s responsibility to create jobs… – Breakfast Mon 15 Aug” – which is either indifference or negligence.

   3/. Any extension to the wider beneficiary groups risks further societal alienation and withdrawal for these groups. Unemployment is not a personal problem, it is a societal problem – and it could be solved very quickly if those in power were willing to put an end to it. Sure, it may cost money, but how much money is currently wasted through the peverse incentives. Surely it would be better to pay people a low but fair wage for “work” during school hours so they were at least doing something with themselves – and if they didn’t like it – then get something better.
   • Colonial Viper 7.1

     15 August 2011 at 11:05 am

     Yep. Society needs structures and supports in place to help youth make the transition from school into responsible, engaged adulthood. Letting young people fall between the cracks, making them feel devalued and out of place has major costs to the country which are born out over generations.

     Of course Key is only looking at Nov 26 so what does he care.
     • neoleftie 7.1.1

       15 August 2011 at 7:17 pm

       Labour were on the right track with increased support to ECE in identifying children that required extra support…but the ruling elite surely dont want to spend money on helping the unerclass as long as they are quiet.
   • Olwyn 7.2

     15 August 2011 at 12:25 pm

     I cannot help but think that there is no will whatsoever on the part of the National Party to create jobs. Instead they are incrementally introducing forms of persecution for those who lack them, while reassuring those who still have houses and have jobs that they are the lucky ones, the valuable ones. Without wishing to sound too much like Afewknowthetruth, the greed-and-panic driven ideology that the Western world has embraced is coming to look rather like the land clearances all over again, but without any big industrial machine in sight to mop up the dispossessed: instead the money is to be made by corporations in “managing” them rather than employing them. It is time to give up pointing out that the Nats are not achieving what they claim they are trying to achieve, since these claims are nothing more than cover stories anyway. Instead we should call moral toxicity for what it is.
   • Gosman 7.3

     15 August 2011 at 1:11 pm

     “Unemployment is not a personal problem, it is a societal problem – and it could be solved very quickly if those in power were willing to put an end to it”

     And here we have in a single sentence why many on the left live in cloud cookoo land when it comes to economic policies.

     Please tell me how unemployment can be solved very quickly without Government creating a bunch of make believe useless jobs such as digging holes and then filling them in again?

     The private sector creates the majority of jobs in a modern mixed economy, not the Government.
     • Policy Parrot 7.3.1

       15 August 2011 at 1:29 pm

       Gosman – surely even this is better than giving people money for doing nothing?

       Take a purely cost/benefit view of the situation.
       At the moment, we invest $225.03 (max for adults 25+) per week for those receiving unemployment beneficiaries – and yet all they are required to do is look for work – which is pretty much non-existent if you happen to find yourself on a benefit. I’m also pretty sure that these jobs would be no picnic, so that if you really hated them, you’d do some other job.

       If they were put to work, even at purely needless (and that is unlikely) work, they would get paid 27.5 hours (9.15am to 2.45pm) x $13 = $357.50 per week gross.

       So to be economic in addition the current status quo, they only have to create value to the equivalent of the difference, i.e. $132.47 for 27.5 hours a week work (i.e. the value equivalent of $4.81 per hour).

       Not only would beneficiaries get more money, but much needed and neglected tasks could be performed. Not to mention all of the benefits that people get from having a structured lifestyle and a feeling of belonging. Your stupid assertion that private sector is strictly the best place to create jobs shows an ideological inhibition, which has caused this problem in the first place.

       Pragmatic thinking – you might want to try it.
       • Gosman 7.3.1.1

         15 August 2011 at 2:29 pm

         So are you suggesting work for the dole type scheme? Not very left wing idea I’d suggest but so be it. I’d love to see Labour propose that.
         • Policy Parrot 7.3.1.1.1

           15 August 2011 at 2:35 pm

           The key difference between this and work for the dole is that actually pays a real, although minimum wage. Working for the dole, was about paying the dole to people who sometimes worked in jobs whose physical nature, time of the day and length of hours was massively out of proportion to being paid the benefit.

           BTW – how is it not a left wing idea to get people into work? Full employment for very long time was Labour’s policy.
           • Gosman 7.3.1.1.1.1

             15 August 2011 at 3:53 pm

             So let me get you straight. Your job creation scheme for unemployed people is a whole bunch of minimum wage jobs doing menial manual labour type tasks completely subsidised by the taxpayer. Would you make this compulsory for long term unemployed people?
             • Policy Parrot …

               15 August 2011 at 4:14 pm

               It doesn’t necessarily have to be minimum wage, perhaps there could be carrot incentives for those who show good work ethic. It would be compulsory for unemployed after a reasonable amount of time (perhaps 2 months) looking for work through the normal channels.

               Of course, the state would require that these schemes lost as little money as possible, but fostering employment remains numero uno.

               In addition, there would a variety of schemes so that people would be put into areas at which they were skilled or interested in if possible – so that skills/experience would be transferable into the real world.
       • Deadly_NZ 7.3.1.2

         15 August 2011 at 9:13 pm

         Unfortunately as soon as you go over $100.00 gross they penalise you at about 80C in the dollar and the rest is swallowed by secondary tax rates. So even those sums are erronious.

         27.5 hours (9.15am to 2.45pm) x $13 = $357.50 per week gross. remove the $225.00 that leaves $132 Now secondary tax on the whole lot Thats about 21% of $357-21%= 282.03now remove the $225 benefit it now equals a whopping $57 a week so you now have 57/27.5 that leaves an hourly rate of a whole $2.07 per hr . Yep a lot isn’t it smoke and mirrors is all it is, all you have to do is play with the figures. And it wont even hit the 30 hours per week needed for WFF so more savings there as well if they had a child.
         • Policy Parrot 7.3.1.2.1

           15 August 2011 at 9:33 pm

           Deadly – the job scheme I suggested would be a replacement, not paid in conjunction, with the benefit. So therefore, secondary tax would not apply.

           Note there has been significant changes to secondary tax – usually now most PAYE systems use your greater income as an annual base from which to work from (i.e. take away your primary income from the tax thresholds and pay you otherwise as normal).

           i.e. you earn $30 k @ M
           and you earn $15 k @ S

           The entire S job will be taxed at the 14 to 48 k rate, which is 17.54%. Of course, if you don’t declare your first job, then usually you will be liable for extra PAYE.

           Secondly, abatement currently starts at $80 gross, not $100, and abates at 70c in the dollar.

           The scheme isn’t the be all end all. But it provides significantly more than the benefit, and is compatible with those who have school-aged dependents (which under the scheme would have additional support).
     • Olwyn 7.3.2

       15 August 2011 at 1:39 pm

       Gosman you are straw-manning the person you are quoting, and offering a false dichotomy to boot. Firstly, the government resolving to put an end to unemployment does not necessarily translate into the government creating make-believe, useless jobs. The truth is, we act upon what we genuinely regard as valuable and important, where is it is within our powers to do so, and if the government seriously wanted to reduce unemployment it too would act accordingly. That is to say, really minding about employment would have an impact on the sort of investment they welcomed, the sorts of plans they treated as viable, and so on. It would be considered shameful, for example, to import people to work while NZers were unemployed, and to lease fishing quotas to foreign fishing fleets who mistreat their workers while our own workers are being put on food stamps. The importance of employment would be structured into the government’s thinking at all levels and would not be treated as an optional extra, or a “nice to have.” Furthermore, if the government did think this way, it may actually improve morale on all levels.
       • Gosman 7.3.2.1

         15 August 2011 at 2:32 pm

         I love the idea of not allowing people outside New Zealand have jobs if there are unemployed New Zealanders around that might be able to do the job.

         How many young Kiwi’s would suffer if let’s say the UK put in place a similar restriction?

         How do you think many Pacific Islands would cope without remitances from NZ based Pacific Islanders?
         • Olwyn 7.3.2.1.1

           15 August 2011 at 2:56 pm

           I was pointing out some ways, off the top of my head, that a government might concern itself about employment without creating make-believe jobs. I do not claim that I have all the answers, only that if you actually find the question compelling you seek answers to it. Going by what the government actually does, it does not find the question compelling, since it does not nurture conditions that might lead to fuller employment, but concentrates instead on vilifying the unemployed and engineering ways by which their pet lobbyists can make a bit of money out of managing them.
         • Deadly_NZ 7.3.2.1.2

           15 August 2011 at 9:15 pm

           Hang on hasn’t the govt said that there are a heap of foreign workers coming in for the world cup and can stay a year. What about the unemployed people here???
           • Colonial Viper 7.3.2.1.2.1

             15 August 2011 at 9:36 pm

             You can pay the foreign workers cheaper. He’ll probably change the laws so that minimum wage and workers rights don’t apply to them. (Maybe already done?)
     • mik e 7.3.3

       15 August 2011 at 1:56 pm

       Cycleways
     • mik e 7.3.4

       15 August 2011 at 3:53 pm

       Gosman. NZ is barely a modern economy we are just ahead of Turkey.Modern economies rely on Government planning and leadership to grow, something thats not in Nationals Laissez fair DNa.They are stuck in the past ,Ive listed countries who are way more successful than ours their are 27 of them ahead of us, it use to be only 21 before these clowns took office
     • Vicky32 7.3.5

       15 August 2011 at 4:31 pm

       The private sector creates the majority of jobs in a modern mixed economy, not the Government.

       If that’s true, then why aren’t they creating them then?
     • KJT 7.3.6

       15 August 2011 at 4:37 pm

       Bullshit.

       20% increase in wealth at the top end in NZ this year. Where are the jobs??

       Cut State spending. Where are the jobs?

       Give more to employers and corporates. Where are the jobs?

       Bit inconvenient that the evidence shows you are wrong.
8. randal 8

   15 August 2011 at 11:34 am

   National talk up a blue streak and keep trying to connect the welfare system to the economy when they arfe patently unable to attract more jobs to this country and rely on tired old stuff like the market is going ot fix everything someday.
   And as for Mathew Hooton laying it on about Nationals efforet in the nineties then that was just band aids after they gutted the real apprenticeship system.
   And only those who undertook a real appreticeship will know what I am talking about.
   National are just hopeless ditherers waiting to stag the state assets before they get the boot and clenching as hard as they can in case they miss out..
9. Craig Glen Eden 9

   15 August 2011 at 11:50 am

   If I was an accountant/ loan shark I would be saying I could drive a bus through the holes that exist in this National policy, not that I should say that of coarse because after all its going to be good for my bottom line.
10. JS 10

    15 August 2011 at 11:55 am

    Mik e – don’t forget the fundamentalist Open Home foundation which has a lot of government contracts but only employs Christians.
11. dave brown 11

    15 August 2011 at 11:58 am

    Capitalism is in a 1930s type crisis and driving large sections of workers onto the scrapheap where their only hope is to protest and riot. The 30s crisis was resolved only by a world war. This time it is compounded by the crisis of global warming. We have the choice of socialism or fascist barbarism.

    Key needs to scapegoat ‘feral’ minorities to rally the petty bourgeois and ‘taxpayer’ workers as his fascist movement to smash the rioters. This is what Cameron is doing in the UK. Obama is kissing the arse of the proto-fascist Teaparty in cutting social spending in the US.

    Brash is the proto-fascist frontman in NZ.
    http://redrave.blogspot.com/2011/08/nzs-act-party-dinosaur-or-proto-fascist.html

    If the NACTs win in November it will be a legal proto-fascist coup based on the rallying of the racist chauvinist middle NZ against the demonised ‘underclass’ to serve the interests of US and Chinese imperialism to grab NZ’s .

    Unite to smash the NACTs!
12. freedom 12

    15 August 2011 at 12:05 pm

    interesting point on the Stuff comments that i don’t recall seeing anybody mention. There is a common factor in the lives of most young people this new policy targets:

    They are not Voters !!!
    • Puddleglum 12.1

      15 August 2011 at 4:16 pm

      This time.

      But they no doubt have friends and family who are.

      Nevertheless, they are a numerically small group and – unfortunately for them – they fit the demographic that is part of the stereotypical teenager on the dole and DPB as an easy lifestyle choice, pushed by the right. Whatismore, apparently Key is the knight on a white charger protecting these teenage mothers.

      Key, reported in today’s Press:

      “Key said that would “take pressure off some of these young girls“.
      “The reality is that they are preyed on by young boys and seen as a source of cash … There will be some discretionary spending there but no longer will they be the source of cash that some fairly unscrupulous boys are preying on at the moment.”” 
13. pollywog 13

    15 August 2011 at 12:10 pm

    National don’t care about our youth

    Sure they do. I bet they got plans for lots of nice warm prisons to keep them safely housed and fed for generations.

    These ungrateful youth dont realise the National party have their best interest at hearts. Just look at the zero tolerance policy for young drivers with a positive alcohol test…saving them from themselves is the name of the game.

    How anyone can even question the motives and noble intent shown youth, through the workings of Aunty Paula and Nanny Tolley in social welfare and education, is beyond me.

    All kids aspire to be fat useless bullyboy fucks like Gerry the Hut, or dodgy rip off pricks like the dipped in dipshit, I’ll have you know ?

    Legitimately sponging off the taxpayer is the new black…
    • Blue 13.1

      15 August 2011 at 1:32 pm

      “I bet they got plans for lots of nice warm prisons to keep them safely housed and fed for generations.” Solution – don’t break the law – moron.

      “zero tolerance policy for young drivers with a positive alcohol test” Solution – don’t break the law moron (and don’t put others lives at risk for fucks sake)

      “Legitimately sponging off the taxpayer is the new black…” So stop doing it – moron.
      • Axle 13.1.1

        15 August 2011 at 4:04 pm

        You’re a clever little thing aren’t you Blue.
        Let’s club ’em to death and get it over with eh? – wanker.
      • mik e 13.1.2

        15 August 2011 at 4:06 pm

        BLUE SO that puts the foreign banks that are bailing out borrowing bill english as the biggest bludgers followed by the alcohol companies who s lobbyists are married to national costing the tax payer $5to $6billion dollars the next biggest bludgers followed by the ponzi scheming finance company bail outs. then the tobacco companies damage to our economy plus the shortfall in medical costs of $1.6 billion these guys are the new black and there all in nationals back pocket with free keys to parliament to have a quiet chat with the govt
      • pollywog 13.1.3

        15 August 2011 at 4:29 pm

        I’m pickin you’re a fucken fat useless dodgy bullyboy prick legitimately sponging off the taxpayer who’s not breaking any laws but commiting highly unethical and morally dubious acts eh Blue ?

        You’re an evolutionary dead end mate. The only thing natures gonna select for you is blue plastic flowers at your untimely funeral, though i wouldn’t put it past you to fake your own death for the insurance and do a runner on your family.
14. Afewknowthetruth 14

    15 August 2011 at 12:34 pm

    This not just a central government phenomenon.

    New Plymouth District Council is planning to spend $10 million (read that is just the initial costing which will blow out to $20 million) on a new art gallery. They have already had secret meetings which have resulted in $0.5 million being spent on consultants. Meanwhile the youth of the city, who have effectively been dumped by the system, waste their lives hanging around shopping malls.

    Everywhere we look we see tiny groups of wealthy elites looting the public purse to pursue selfish interests, stealing from the next generation and off-loading the costs onto them -not just the financial costs, of course, but also the environmental costs and social costs.

    What is particularly sickening is that most adults don’t seem to care that the last of precious resources are being squandered while the young people of this (and practically every other) nation are being lied to, so they keep voting for the same corrupt, self-serving liars.

    It is truly surreal.
    • Ianupnorth 14.1

      15 August 2011 at 1:09 pm

      Tauranga, that other bastion of blue rinses, was also thinking of doing the same!
15. Gosman 15

    15 August 2011 at 1:07 pm

    ” Let’s talk about youth rates. ”

    Hmmmmm…. considering standard right wing economic theory states that increasing minimum wage rates leads to more unemployment and that by abolishing the Youth minimum wage it led to increased unemployment amongst youth I’m not sure this is the anti-youth policy you think it is.
    • Ianupnorth 15.1

      15 August 2011 at 1:12 pm

      Standard right wing BELIEF – not theory; a theory is an rationale idea that is in a pre-testing state, where there has been analysis and thought applied; as there is little (if any) evidence that decreasing youth rates creates jobs it (that belief) should be consigned to the trash can where it belongs!
       
    • mik e 15.2

      15 August 2011 at 2:12 pm

      Gosman countries that have high youth unemployment have poor planning, Don’t have pathways to work [some cities in NZ have these systems have no youth unemployment ].Don’t have industry training [canceled by National].Germany has the lowest youth unemployment yet no youth rates .Spain has youth rates and has 65% youth unemployment.The school age should be raised to 18 years old and skills training for non academic children introduced ,their are large shortages in many areas of our economy.Stas also reveal that people who start on low wages stay on lower wages through out their lives this is not what we want in NZ if we are to catch Australia or go up the OECD.
16. randal 16

    15 August 2011 at 1:45 pm

    the nats are still trying to connect the economy to the welfare system when they are two different things. any so called fixes seem to be just parcelling out patronage to the sycophants while the same underlying problems are never addressed.
17. dave brown 17

    15 August 2011 at 1:59 pm

    When kiwi youth face this new vicious social policing lets hope that the riots around the world include them and don’ t leave them as isolated victims seeking suicide as a way out. That’s what the banksters want.
    Rioting is about power. Feeling you have some up against those who do have it. Doing it collectively is what brings the power. 100,000 students riot in Chile. 100,000 Chinese workers shut down chemical plant. Kill capitalism before it kills you.
    Roll on the flash mobs and the recreational riots.
    Celebrate looting back the suited looters.
    Against the bourgeois slogan “accumulate, accumulate, accumulate”, the workers slogan is “expropriate, expropriate, expropriate!”
    • Colonial Viper 17.1

      15 August 2011 at 2:14 pm

      Poetic work.
      • Gosman 17.1.1

        15 August 2011 at 3:57 pm

        So you and Dave are advocating that our youth enage in violent anti-social behaviour in the future are you Colonial Viper?

        If so it doesn’t surprise me. It is just the hard left reverting to type.
        • Ianupnorth 17.1.1.1

          15 August 2011 at 4:12 pm

          Troll alert – not that anyone needed warning – hey Gozzo, go to the Key is a liar thread and answer the questions there – you can’t because you have no answers.
        • Afewknowthetruth 17.1.1.2

          15 August 2011 at 5:07 pm

          Gosman.

          You seem to need reminding every day:

          ‘Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.’
          John F. Kennedy.

          In a speech at the White House, 1962 , 35th president of US 1961-1963

          The neofascists had him shot, of course.
        • RedLogix 17.1.1.3

          16 August 2011 at 10:28 am

          So you and Dave are advocating that our youth enage in violent anti-social behaviour in the future

          Societies which maintain cohesiveness, where the gap between the leaders and the ordinary people is still on a human scale, where the decision makers in society are not insulated from the state of the poor by excessive wealth and privilege… where there is a sense that everyone has their respected place and purpose, however modest….are without exception stable and resilient.

          For some considerable time there have many respected authors and researchers telling us that highly unequal societies, where a small minority of privileged accumulate wealth and power far beyond reason or justice… are prone to exactly the kind of violent social breakdown we have witnessed.

          Anti-social looting and arson is at an individual level of course a crime, and the state has every right to assert it’s authority. But rioting on this scale is by definition, a social phenomonon that can only be made sense of in a social setting.

          So we have performed the social experiment, and gotten the predicted outcome. Any quibbles Gossy?

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