The long cost of Covid-19

47 comments on “The long cost of Covid-19 ”

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1. weka 1

   13 February 2022 at 1:26 pm

   it's also why avoiding omicron if one can is still a bloody good idea.
   • Belladonna 1.1

     13 February 2022 at 6:16 pm

     TBH – unless you live like a hermit, I don't think you can.

     2 separate cases of friends overseas. Both caught Omicron, despite being fully vaxed, fully masked (outside the home) and associating only with people who were fully vaxed. One caught Omicron from a family member (impossible to judge just how rigorous other family members are about infection protocols). The other probably caught it from a friend during an outside walk, where both were fully masked/vaxed and boosted.

     If you're susceptible (and there are some people who simply don't seem to catch Covid – natural immunity? or an early, particularly effective prophylactic dose?) – then you're almost certainly going to get it. The only thing that the restrictions can do is slow down the infection rate so that the hospital system can cope.

     But, from the perspective of long Covid, it doesn't matter whether you catch it this week, or in 6 weeks time – the effect on your health will be the same.
   • Gosman 1.2

     14 February 2022 at 8:11 am

     In which case why has the government ditched lockdowns as a method for dealing with the virus?
     • Muttonbird 1.2.1

       14 February 2022 at 9:05 am

       A high vaccination rate.
     • aom 1.2.2

       14 February 2022 at 9:23 am

       Its the economy stupid! (sarc.)
     • weka 1.2.3

       14 February 2022 at 9:43 am

       Range of reasons, to do with how people and the economy fare in a long crisis.

       I think the border opening process is a mistake, they could have made it easier for kiwis to return in other ways
2. Barfly 2

   13 February 2022 at 2:00 pm

   "That will at least start to prepare us for the longer-term endemic effects of Covid-19 in the population."

   I have read that vaccinated covid19 patients are not affected by long covid (don't remember where). Hopefully the endemic health problems are restricted the 4% of people who are unwilling or unable to be vaccinated. (making the problem 24x smaller)
   • weka 2.1

     13 February 2022 at 2:08 pm

     research appears to be mixed but general gist is that vaccinated reduces risk but doesn't protect fully. And we don’t know what will happen with omicron given its ability to evade the vaccination response.

     https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03495-2

     https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00177-5

     I'm unclear if all long term effects are classified as long covid though eg if the heart issues Lynn wrote about are stand alone conditions, are they being counted separately from LC?
     • lprent 2.1.1

       13 February 2022 at 2:34 pm

       Probably not seperate. Jusr about any cardio related problem can cause the kinds of problems attributed to some of the ling covid symptoms, as can lung damage as well. Most ofvthem read like insufficent oxygen getting where it needs to.
       • weka 2.1.1.1

         13 February 2022 at 2:40 pm

         true, but how will they differentiate in any person between cardiac conditions that would have happened anyway and those that are from long covid?
       • Shanreagh 2.1.1.2

         13 February 2022 at 6:26 pm

         In the article from NYT that I have just linked to they cover this very thing. See Post 7

         "Yet when the long Covid patients exercised on a stationary bicycle, Dr. Systrom found that some veins and arteries were not working properly, preventing oxygen from being delivered efficiently to their muscles.

         Nobody knows why these blood vessel problems occur, Dr. Systrom said, but another one of his recent studies suggested that long Covid patients experience damage to a certain kind of nerve fiber involved in how organs and blood vessel function."
3. Rosemary McDonald 3

   13 February 2022 at 5:08 pm

   And while I have temporary internet (no power in FFNorth, ? 2-3 days before fix and not willing to trust Uber gear on our generator..good old Bus solar is running this.)

   From Israel… and a very depressing read with regard to heart damage from the mRNA vaccines.

   New study: 133x risk of myocarditis after COVID vaccination

   Comparisons with myocarditis rates following infection now irrelevant as vaccination no longer prevents infection.

   A recent study published on January 25, 2022, on JAMA Network, has shown that the risk of myocarditis following mRNA COVID vaccination is around 133 times greater than the background risk in the population.

   The study, conducted by researchers from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) as well as from several U.S. universities and hospitals, examined the effects of vaccination with products manufactured by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna. The study’s authors used data obtained from the CDC’s VAERS reporting system which were cross-checked to ensure they complied with CDC’s definition of myocarditis; they also noted that given the passive nature of the VAERS system, the number of reported incidents is likely to be an underestimate of the extent of the phenomenon.

   1626 cases of myocarditis were studied, and the results showed that the Pfizer-BioNTech product was most associated with higher risk, with 105.9 cases per million doses after the second vaccine shot in the 16 to 17 age group for males, and 70.7 cases per million doses after the second shot in the 12 to 15 age group for males. The 18 to 24 male age group also saw significantly higher rates of myocarditis for both Pfizer’s and Moderna’s products (52.4 and 56.3 cases per million respectively).

   https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346

   We have known about the very real risk of heart damage from the mRNA 'vaccines' especially in younger men for some time now and NZ has had more than our share of reports. Reports to Medsafe here…https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-39.asp

   You need to look not only at the myo/pericarditis reports but also at the ridiculously high number of people with other symptoms such as chest discomfort, dizziness, nausea. We may have a severe problem with some of our young people in the not too distant future because the experts simply don't know if vaccine damaged heart completely recover.

   Almost invariably the 'experts' have minimised or dismissed these cases claiming Covid presents a greater risk and if someone does get myocarditis from the vaccine it will be mild and transitory etc etc. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127337216/covid19-myocarditis-was-probably-due-to-vaccination-says-board-reviewing-mans-death Shame on Pertousis -Harris.

   I get concerns about Long Covid and I get concerns about at- risk older folks suffering long term cardiovascular damage from infections but I am more worried about the drive to 'vaccinate' young people who are more at risk of heart damage from the jab than they of of having severe disease from Covid.

   One of the reasons for the Wellington protest…everyone has a vaccine injury story and many involve heart issues.

   We need to end the mandates now and allow the young ones to live their lives.
   • Shanreagh 3.1

     13 February 2022 at 6:07 pm

     Is this thread about vaccines?

     If it is about Long Covid why is there a post about vaccines.
   • lprent 3.2

     13 February 2022 at 8:10 pm

     A recent study published on January 25, 2022, on JAMA Network, has shown that the risk of myocarditis following mRNA COVID vaccination is around 133 times greater than the background risk in the population.

     So where was their comparison population? We know that there is a chance of getting myocarditis with the vaccines. We also know that there is a chance of getting myocarditis with being infected with covid-19. Comparing either against a background incidence of a reaction is useless unless you compare both.

     After all the probability of getting covid-19 over the coming years is about 100%. The reason why the vaccines produce myocarditis is because they are training your immune system to recognise and deal with covid-19 – which also produces myocarditis effects. The only purpose of having the vaccine is to reduce the incidence of all effects from having covid-19. So that is what it needs to be measured against.

     I think that you or whoever you parroted that off are simply lying by omission. Not looking through the intent of the study. Which means that I think your comment is complete crap and an about as useless as the rarity of a extra finger.

     I'm not even going to look at the link because it isn't worth my time pointing out that I already know that a vaccine imitating a disease that causes myocarditis may also trigger a much lower incidence of myocarditis in young men. But that the probability of getting myocarditis from the vaccine is far lower than getting it from covid-19, and even less after getting covid-19 while vaccinated.

     I can’t be bothered explaining the issue to you. You'll just ignore any points I make anyway.

     /contempt
4. Chris T 4

   13 February 2022 at 5:15 pm

   Far out. While I hope I don't get the thing I probably will, but not that worried as vacced and relatively healthy, but the whole doomsday crap is getting on my tits.

   I thought we kind of got rid of it when Bush was trying to use it with terrorism after 9/11 as a political tool.
   • weka 4.1

     13 February 2022 at 5:25 pm

     There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, whereas long covid is an actual thing.
     • Chris T 4.1.1

       13 February 2022 at 5:41 pm

       While that is a fair point at the time no one knew Bush was talking shit.

       At the end of the day my point stands. Fear tactics get tiresome.
       • lprent 4.1.1.1

         13 February 2022 at 8:22 pm

         I knew that he was talking shit. Apparently most of the people actually making the decision knew that it was shit.

         Simple logic made it obvious. Interdicting supplies to make WOMD where you weren't finding the supplies even with strenuous effort actually being shipped made it obvious. A negative result in an embargo does not imply that you're just missing the shipments. It probably means that the supplies weren't being shipped.

         Not to mention the idea of Saddam Hussien helping out the same terrorists who were saying that he should die to run planes into buildings in The US was a ludicrous proposition in the first place.

         Those was the reasons that NZ under a Labour government didn't climb into bed with the coalition of the stupid nations.
     • Ross 4.1.2

       13 February 2022 at 6:20 pm

       long covid is an actual thing.

       As is long flu…Covid isn't unique. There is an increased risk of heart attack and other serious side effects from flu including death.

       While there’s no doubt long Covid is a real condition worthy of diagnosis and treatment, “this isn’t unique to Covid,” Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at the Yale School of Medicine, said. Covid-19 appears to be one of many infections, from Ebola to strep throat, that can give rise to stubbornly persistent symptoms in an unlucky subset of patients. “If Covid didn’t cause chronic symptoms to occur in some people,” PolyBio Research Foundation microbiologist Amy Proal told Vox, “it would be the only virus that didn’t do that.”

       Even with growing awareness about long Covid, patients with chronic “medically unexplained” symptoms — that don’t correspond to problematic blood tests or imaging — are still too often minimized and dismissed by health professionals. It’s a frustrating blind spot in health care, but one that can’t be as easily ignored with so many new patients entering this category, said Megan Hosey, assistant professor at the Johns Hopkins Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation.

       “It has always been [and] is the case that patients who get sick experience high levels of symptoms like those described by long-Covid patients,” she said. “We have just done a terrible job of acknowledging [and] treating them.”
       …
       “I can’t find a single thing that the SARS-CoV-2 virus can do, that other viruses cannot,” Proal said. “It’s well understood and it’s been understood for decades that every major pathogen capable of infecting people has a syndrome associated with it in which a certain number of patients who get that pathogen,” she continued, “will develop chronic symptoms that never go away.”

       https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/heartdisease.htm

       https://www.vox.com/22298751/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-hauler-symptoms
       • lprent 4.1.2.1

         13 February 2022 at 8:33 pm

         Oh I agree in the abstract like the quotes in your link.

         However theory doesn't produce actual numbers and risk assessments. It also doesn't look at the scale of the population

         There is a reason that the people quoted above weren't comparing with relative risks. That is because they don't know how big the subsets are for most diseases. All that they know is that they are smallish.

         What this study shows up is that the size of the subset with covid-19 after-effects from this particular is significantly higher than with other diseases where the values are known.

         Unlike the many strains of influenza of influenza and Ebola, it is unlikely that most of the worlds population will get each one of them. Whereas with Covid-19, currently the probability of infection over coming years looks to be 100% as it becomes an endemic disease.

         That means that in terms of total number affected by after-effects of covid-19 are likely to constitute a long-term health issue of monumental total numbers compared to other diseases.

         Basically trying to wave away total numbers with a brush of basic theory doesn’t make the problem disappear. It just shows people, presumably like you, stuffing the heads up their nice safe self-referential rectum and hoping it will all go away. It id delusional rather than facing reality.
       • joe90 4.1.2.2

         13 February 2022 at 8:49 pm

         Covid isn't unique.

         Tell me, what other bat disease in humans primarily attacks one of the body's most critical systems?

         Abstract

         The vascular endothelium provides the crucial interface between the blood compartment and tissues, and displays a series of remarkable properties that normally maintain homeostasis. This tightly regulated palette of functions includes control of haemostasis, fibrinolysis, vasomotion, inflammation, oxidative stress, vascular permeability, and structure. While these functions participate in the moment-to-moment regulation of the circulation and coordinate many host defence mechanisms, they can also contribute to disease when their usually homeostatic and defensive functions over-reach and turn against the host. SARS-CoV-2, the aetiological agent of COVID-19, causes the current pandemic. It produces protean manifestations ranging from head to toe, wreaking seemingly indiscriminate havoc on multiple organ systems including the lungs, heart, brain, kidney, and vasculature. This essay explores the hypothesis that COVID-19, particularly in the later complicated stages, represents an endothelial disease. Cytokines, protein pro-inflammatory mediators, serve as key danger signals that shift endothelial functions from the homeostatic into the defensive mode. The endgame of COVID-19 usually involves a cytokine storm, a phlogistic phenomenon fed by well-understood positive feedback loops that govern cytokine production and overwhelm counter-regulatory mechanisms. The concept of COVID-19 as an endothelial disease provides a unifying pathophysiological picture of this raging infection, and also provides a framework for a rational treatment strategy at a time when we possess an indeed modest evidence base to guide our therapeutic attempts to confront this novel pandemic.

         https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/41/32/3038/5901158
         • lprent 4.1.2.2.1

           13 February 2022 at 9:25 pm

           That is one of the theories. One that has a bit more support for the causation in the 18 months since publication.

           But at present covid-19 is a bit like measles was. We had it for centuries before it was realised that it was a disease of the immune system like HIV. https://asm.org/Articles/2019/May/Measles-and-Immune-Amnesia

           The way the covid-19 is producing the effects, especially longer term effects, that it does is not understood. Lost of theories and despite the numbers of cases, very little information about causation. So far, like the study in the post, we’re barely getting to the point of being able to know the effects for sure in short-term studies. That is rather scary bearing in mind the size of the population that has been infected.
         • Chris T 4.1.2.2.2

           13 February 2022 at 10:08 pm

           "Tell me, what other bat disease in humans primarily attacks one of the body's most critical systems?"

           You kind of have to give definitive prrof it came from bats first.

           And plenty of diseases attack the bodies most critical systems.
           • joe90 4.1.2.2.2.1

             13 February 2022 at 10:52 pm

             Bats are a natural coronavirus reservoir.

             Almost every protective barrier in your body is made up of epithelial cells and dysfunction of those cells is the smoking gun in almost everything from allergies and autoimmune conditions to metabolic disorders like diabetes, obesity and rheumatoid arthritis.

             The protective barrier in your vascular system is made up of endothelial cells and dysfunction of those cells is the smoking gun in vascular disease.

             It appears that Covid is a disease of endothelial cells.
             • Chris T …

               13 February 2022 at 11:16 pm

               That didn't really answer my question.

               Proof it came from bats, and not just theory.And the claim it is some freak disease it is on the only one attacking the bodies most critical systems.

               There is no definitive proof it was bats and have people not heard now of the black death, multiple types of cancer, cholera, heart disease, HIV, AIDS, Malaria?

               You could even argue Dementia and Altzheimers as critical parts.
         • Chris T 4.1.2.2.3

           13 February 2022 at 11:24 pm

           Oh forgot bats can also give humans rabies and ebola if you are a speaking specific, which both attack critical systems
       • weka 4.1.2.3

         13 February 2022 at 9:07 pm

         What’s your point Ross? Because you appear to be saying that because flu also has a long term illness associated with it that long covid isn’t a big deal, and that it’s ok if we have LC on top of flu complications. 🤷‍♀️
5. Stan 5

   13 February 2022 at 5:51 pm

   Rosemary, that’s a good link from JAMA. I do think it’s a bit emotive to use the term “heart damage” as this implies irreversible damage to the heart (eg heart attack). Myocarditis is not “heart damage”, it is inflammation of the heart muscle. Usually benign, improves without problems, only small minority of patients end up with “heart damage”.

   105.9 cases per million doses. That's around 1 in 10000. Actually a pretty small risk of this particular side effect compared to the number of hospitalisations and ICU admissions prevented by the vaccination. What risk of side effects is acceptable to you? You can't say "zero" as there's no such thing as a medical intervention with zero risk.

   Useful link from Starship (look at the table just under "key points"):

   https://starship.org.nz/guidelines/covid-19-post-vaccination-pericarditis-myocarditis/

   Most myocarditis and pericarditis associated with COVID vaccines run a mild course and patients recovered quickly. The younger the patient however, the risk does increase.
   • Stan 5.1

     13 February 2022 at 6:40 pm

     And just to add, anaphylaxis (severe allergy, eg to nuts or antibiotics, other causes) is estimated to kill approximately 6 people yearly in NZ.

     Although the anti-vaccine groups state that the figures are hidden, there has only been 1 proven COVID vaccine death in NZ so far. Of course, it's possible there are more.

     Perhaps the anti-vaccine people would be more productive trying to ban peanuts as would save more lives!
     • KJT 5.1.1

       13 February 2022 at 7:28 pm

       Only one, or even several, over ten million doses, makes it an extremely safe medical intervention.

       How many dead after a few thousand cases of Covid, again?
     • Molly 5.1.2

       13 February 2022 at 9:07 pm

       The latest released government data corrects you:

       https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-39.asp#death

       Summary of reported deaths

       Up to and including 31 December 2021, a total of 133 deaths were reported to CARM after the administration of the Comirnaty vaccine. Following medical assessments by CARM and Medsafe it has been determined that:

       • 54 of these deaths are unlikely related to the COVID-19 vaccine
       • 58 deaths could not be assessed due to insufficient information
       • 19 cases are still under investigation.
       • 2 deaths were likely due to vaccine induced myocarditis (awaiting Coroner’s determination)

       By chance, some people will experience new illnesses or die from a pre-existing condition shortly after vaccination, especially if they are elderly. Therefore, part of our review process includes comparing natural death rates to observed death rates following vaccination, to determine if there are any specific trends or patterns that might indicate a vaccine safety concern. See below for more information about these observed-versus-expected analyses.
       • McFlock 5.1.2.1

         13 February 2022 at 9:17 pm

         just to complete the quote from your link:

         To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of natural deaths.
         • weka 5.1.2.1.1

           13 February 2022 at 10:59 pm

           does anyone know why, or is it just an normal variation in death rate?
           • McFlock 5.1.2.1.1.1

             13 February 2022 at 11:41 pm

             My guesses, no direct knowledge of their data or methodology to back it up. Quite a lot of infectious diseases took a tumble over the last couple of years. Recovered a bit when the bubbles were in action, but still we seem to have lowered our mortality rate compared to the Before Covid period.

             So we might find that the current background mortality rate is lower than the benchmark being used for the comparison with the vaccinated population.

             But also, it doesn't seem to specify whether being lower than the expected rate is a nominal difference (e.g. 200 deaths is less than 205, but could be withing the margin for error), or outside the confidence intervals completely. So it could just be luck.

             But I suspect that lockdowns and mask wearing in general have shifted the benchmark mortality rate down.
             • weka …

               13 February 2022 at 11:48 pm

               I was wondering if we were being more careful about accidents too, but then remembered all those drownings over the summer.
               • McFlock …

                 14 February 2022 at 12:04 am

                 traffic was down a touch from 2019, I think.
                 • KJT …

                   14 February 2022 at 9:37 am

                   A bit mixed.

                   2020 road deaths down on 2019 | New Zealand Police
       • KJT 5.1.2.2

         14 February 2022 at 9:39 am

         Out of now. 10 million vaccinations.

         Compared with.

         https://www.bing.com/search?q=nz+covid+deaths+and+cases&cvid=255b20b347cf41679d469a9d94c7c458&aqs=edge..69i57j69i64l2.12520j0j1&pglt=43&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=U531
   • Rosemary McDonald 5.2

     13 February 2022 at 8:43 pm

     Stan.

     How may of your nearest and dearest have had the two doses (because of work and/ or wishing to see close family overseas)and have suffered two or more of the symptoms of myocarditis afterwards?

     • Myocarditis and pericarditis are treatable. Outcomes are better the sooner you start treatment.
     • In the first few days after your vaccination, seek urgent medical attention if you experience:
       • new-onset chest pain (or an increase in severity of existing chest pain), discomfort or heaviness
       • shortness of breath or difficulty breathing
       • an abnormal heartbeat or a racing fluttering feeling or a feeling of skipped heartbeats
       • dizziness, feeling lightheaded or fainting may also occur with the symptoms above.

       These are potential symptoms of myocarditis and pericarditis.

     https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/Alerts/comirnaty-myocarditis-reminder.htm

     I know of at least four people who have experienced all of these symptoms, some having to stay in bed for days. Two thought this was a normal 'side effecst' (because they were told that would be the case) and did not seek medical attention. Two others sought medical attention and were assured it was nothing to worry about and probably due to anxiety.

     One of these persisted and was Holter monitored for two days. She was still told it was nothing. The fainting at work a month or so later was put down to anxiety also…not having to wear masks and goggles and not being able to breathe. She…and yes we seem to have an unusually high number of females experiencing this in NZ…was still experiencing pain through her chest 6 months later. She is shitting herself that her workplace will mandate booster shots.

     As I said…Long Covid, like ME and CFS are real…but what is worse, IMHO, is forcing young people to risk heart damage caused by a product with a ridiculously high rate of adverse effects that is supposed to protect them from a disease that will leave the vast majority of that age group unscathed.

     And telling a person that they will need to have the requisite number(whatever the fuck that is on any given day) of Pfizer shots in order to keep their job does constitute force.

     The vast majority of cases of vaccine induced myo and pericarditis in New Zealand have likely gone undiagnosed and untreated because there was little in the way of advisories issued to doctors. And it has been considered almost heresy to admit that these serious side effects exist.
     • Drowsy M. Kram 5.2.1

       13 February 2022 at 9:08 pm

       The vast majority of cases of vaccine induced myo and pericarditis in New Zealand have likely gone undiagnosed and untreated because there was little in the way of advisories issued to doctors. And it has been considered almost heresy to admit that these serious side effects exist.

       More disinformation. Call me when Dr McDonald has come to her senses.

       https://www.healthnavigator.org.nz/health-a-z/m/myocarditis/

       https://starship.org.nz/guidelines/covid-19-post-vaccination-pericarditis-myocarditis/

       https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/clinicians-reminded-be-aware-myocarditis-and-pericarditis-symptoms

       https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/Alerts/comirnaty-myocarditis-reminder.htm

       https://covid.immune.org.nz/faq/myocarditis-and-covid-19-vaccine-new-zealand

       Myocarditis and the mRNA COVID-19 vaccine in New Zealand – information for health professionals [PDF]

       Ministry of Health-IMAC advice – Myocarditis and the COVID-19 vaccine [PDF]
     • Stan 5.2.2

       13 February 2022 at 10:52 pm

       Hi Rosemary

       You're incorrect on both counts re lack of advisories and heresy to report side effects. They are reported every time where I work.

       1 in 10000 is actually not "ridiculously high".

       Please stop pretending that your ideas are actually facts. You might wish to listen instead to those who work in health and have direct experience but I suspect you're not able to change your opinion if the facts inconveniently disagree with you.

       Declaration of interest: Frontline doctor.
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.2.2.1

         14 February 2022 at 1:04 am

         Thank you front line Doctor (and all our front line Health Professionals!) The vaccination mis and dis information (disingenuous, and at times dangerous) on this and other sites definitely needs your input. I thank you for your time. 👍
6. Anker 6

   13 February 2022 at 6:05 pm

   • Thanks for this article.
7. Shanreagh 7

   13 February 2022 at 6:21 pm

   I came across this article in the NY Times (by Melinda Wenner Moyer) about Long Covid from 12/2/22.

   https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/well/move/long-covid-exercise.html?

   There are also some interesting comments, many pointing out that the symptoms are similar to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

   Somewhere I read, not sure where the reference is, that the likelihood of getting Long Covid is not linked to the severity of the Covid infection you may have had.
   • KJT 7.1

     13 February 2022 at 7:26 pm

     Having look term effects from a past pnuemonia infection, I'm not surprised that other respiratory infections, like Covid, cause ongoing health problems.

     It reinforces the growing overall body of evidence, that the chances of serious effects from Covid, when vaccinated, are many times less, than possible side effects from vaccinations.
     • Barfly 7.1.1

       14 February 2022 at 8:11 am

       
8. GreenBus 8

   14 February 2022 at 11:21 am

   KJT 7.1

   I had 1 week of pretty uncomfortable heart palpitations after my booster shot. The medic warned me go to Doctor if this happens. I didn't but would have if was increasing. It went away and now I'm fine. I'm used to severe palpitation and on strong meds for that but it would scare most people. I was a little worries I must admit, but it is small fry compared to ME/CFS. I really hope the Vaccine works when I get Covid and consider it a small risk to possibly save me from the worst and or another dose of LC on top of the one I've got. Bugger that get jabbed all you anti vax people, LC is no joke if same as ME/CFS, and it sounds exactly the same.

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