- Date published:
7:03 am, November 27th, 2015 - 204 comments
Categories: activism, climate change, global warming - Tags: climate change, cop21, march
With just days to go before the 2015 Paris Climate Conference (COP21) it is time for we the people to make our voices heard. Time for The People’s Climate March:
At the end of November, the week before the Paris Climate talks, people around the globe will march in the largest climate mobilisation the world has ever seen.
Our part – create the biggest climate march New Zealand has ever seen…
People will come together for many reasons – for climate justice and a safe climate; for renewable energy and jobs in the transition to the clean economy; to care for people and protect nature. Whatever your reason, sign-up to make sure your voice is heard.
The time for real climate action is now.
Events are taking place in 34 towns and cities around the country! Click on the map or scroll through the pages below to find details of your nearest march location.
For the list of places and times of the events see these pages. Most events are on Saturday, some are on Sunday. It’s now or never. See you there.
Pleased to add my voice to this call by @NewClimateEcon for stronger #ClimateAction b4 & agreed @Paris #COP21. @UNDP https://t.co/dliZ1iGO44
— Helen Clark (@HelenClarkNZ) November 25, 2015
Chart of the day…
Here are the planet's monthly temperature readings since 1880. 2015 is the line on top pic.twitter.com/p0PwtnBfB0
— Bill McKibben (@billmckibben) November 25, 2015
I know lets have a march to prevent the Pike River 29 from dying
It is that bloody hopeless
If you march, you don’t understand how truly fucked it all is.
I guess you could hold a cake stall in steerage,
The bullet that is Climate Change etc, has left the barrel, it is piercing your skin, there is nothing you can do to slow it’s progress.
700ppm CO2/CO2e = total Mammalian extinction.
Humans have done such a great job of creating this clusterfuck that we are now in the greatest extinction period the planet has ever seen (to the best of our abilities to workout?)
So yeah happy marching, happy Kiwi Saver investing, and happy breeding, and you can chuck in voting as another wank.
The only difference between monkeys in the zoo and marchers is you can see the bars in the zoo.
Do you apply this approach to all areas of your life?
It is that bloody hopeless
I think it’s bad. I think it’s very bad. But I (and most climate scientists) don’t think it’s *that* bad. It is worth taking action to try and limit the damage as much as we can.
The future is worth fighting for.
Could you give me a few names of these climate scientists, not climate commentators that is, or political puppets – eg Cur Peter Gluckman
Or maybe I’m listening to the wrong guys?
Dr Jason Box tweeted – If even a small fraction of Arctic sea floor carbon is released to the atmosphere, we’re f’d. http://motherboard.vice.com/read/if-we-release-a-small-fraction-of-arctic-carbon-were-fucked-climatologist
Natalia Shakhova and ‘her’ 50 gigaton anytime soonish comment kind of drives home Jason’s statement, well the look of sadness and reluctance to mention it dose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx1Jxk6kjbQ 8;00 “makes him think the worse thing might happen”
Or Paul Beckwith – Otawa uni, saying that CH4 is around 150 times stronger a GHG than CO2
Then there is Guy on RT with Thom Heartman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy0pli8E9ic
The road to the future leads us smack into the wall. We simply ricochet off the alternatives that destiny offers: a demographic explosion that triggers social chaos and spreads death, nuclear delirium and the quasi-annihilation of the species… Our survival is no more than a question of 25, 50 or perhaps 100 years.
– Jacques Cousteau (1910-1997)
Was it Albert Einstein who said humans are about 3 years behind the bee ?
Most scientists would 100% agree that the last time CO2 went from 300 to 400 ppm CO2, it took 10,000 years, where as we have done it in 30. And that the last time it was @ 400ppm CO2 next to 96% of ALL life died.
Reduction is an utter waste of time and effort, to ‘save the environment’ we HAVE to remover the crap we have put up there, and in the oceans, even if we all went on starvation rations, and we all worked as if our lives depended on it (which it does) on a scale at least of ww1 and ww2 combined, (and the Tar Sands) we still couldn’t remove enough crap to save ourselves. = to maybe half (?) the amount of ice on Greenland? We have all contributed to the 3 km3 of carbon per year just in oil use. = to 500 years of total planetary growth per year (that might include coal?)
Even if every human left the planet tonight, or woke up as sweet baby Jesus/Mother Teresa or me, we still couldn’t reverse or make worse the situation the environment is in, except maybe nuclear war, which is looking more and more likely, though the melt down of 400 power plants should do the trick.
No amount of marching, wishful thinking, or people abusing me for telling them, is going to change these facts
Hope I’m still on the okay side of moderation )
PS – Rosie, what would you like me to do add a few smiley faces or something?
If you are happy marching or fighting back (not in an ISIS way) then go for it, like I said we can’t make the situation worse, except for the unborn child if it survives to birth. So knock ya self out, it isn’t going to do a squat of good, but if you enjoy doing it then do it.
I’m learning to ride a horse, once I’ve trained it to crap cup cakes I will bring it on a march.
Are you also sharing this bleak information with those who ignore the climate change issue, or is it only those of us who give a shit that you are reserving your scorn for?
It’s never going to be the quietists and defeatists that provide a potential future for anything.
Robert, figure out what to live for.
Could you give me a few names of these climate scientists,
I guess I’ll go with the several hundred listed here as the authors, contributors and reviewers of the IPCC 5 report.
This report does not say “we’re all doomed give up now”, it says many things, such as for example:
Oh good. A win/win situation! (Happy economists, happy people, flourishing economy, flourishing society – we should have done this AGW thing years ago!)
Would I be correct in thinking that ‘Table SPM.1.’ is full of such wonders as ‘sucking CO2 outta the air’; building oodles of infrastructure in a fantastical instantaneous way…?
Actually, I’ll pause this comment and look it up. In my mind the reporting from the IPCC has been a huge contributory factor to inaction…all it’s fucking ‘rose tinted glasses’ conclusions that are predicated, not on science at all, but on wishful thinking.
Table SPM 1 has nothing specific at all! It’s bureaucratic bollocks and nonsense that boils down to saying “we can make things okay if we make things better and we have the following wish list of magical thinking that will make the better things appear thus rendering everything okay.”
It’s a summary of an introduction to a multi-volume report, and it’s pitched at “policy makers” not scientists. There’s plenty more reading there Bill…
I know r0b. And a lot of the info is good. The big problem is the rosy conclusions of the IPCC and others, that government policy then gets built around.
A good example is the conclusion from the IPCC that we must achieve zero emissions by the end of the century. That isn’t a scientific conclusion and no scientist is saying anything like that based on the available evidence and data. What the IPCC have done in that instance is take the science, thrown in a whole pile of assumptions (negative emissions etc) and come up with something palatable…for the politicians, who then run policy off the back of it all.
You can see why it’s such a dangerous/irresponsible scenario to have created, yes?
I agree that the IPCC pulls is punches too much, and this gives pollies too much wriggle room. My point in this context however was only that the majority of climate change scientists are no where near as defeatist as RA.
heh – can I just point out that’s a hell of low bar being set for relative levels of pessimism/optimism – a bit like saying the majority of take- away meals are nowhere near as cold as ice -cream. 😉
Wow, you were really feeling that hostile at 8am?
I sometimes feel overwhelmingly fucked off and powerless and going from your comment I guess you do too, but when we roll over that means the bastards win. Governments and corporates have aligned to create social and environmental destruction across the planet. If we stand back and continue allowing it, we are contributing to the problem, it says we support them, so we fight back instead. It the very least we can do. Corny but true.
There can’t be too many climate change talkfests left, what with the genuine existential crises Europe is undergoing at the moment. Still, it gives fatcat politicians and bureaucrats the opportunity to gorge themselves on the finest of haute cuisine whilst feigning concern for theoretical sea level rises that may happen in the Maldives in the 22nd century if the computer models are correct.
Don’t worry your pretty little head over it.
Firstly you have no idea about the function of diplomacy. That’s obvious from the way you write.
Secondly I am quite happy for global legal frameworks to be written by “fatcats and bureaucrats” because those writers are neither soul-sucking corporations intent on fucking the planet over for profit, nor are they self-interested NGOs with small narrow bases, and finally nor are they global religions who take far too long to change for good when they actually do good.
Climate Change is the only existential crisis. All the rest are simply wars brought about by too much greed and too many people against not enough resources.
In other words, the existential crisis is capitalism. We need to get rid of it.
capitalism is a temporary anomaly, the default human state is/was agrarian community working for the common weal. not a mad scramble to crush and exploit your neighbour
And what a bloody joke have Helen’s comments here …. She gave us the environment fucking growth based savings scam _ Kiwi Saver.
Not to forget it was supported by the so called environmental party of Aotearoa, if you happen to meet one of the dicks on the march ask them how economic growth and a survivable plane work together?
I will be marching proudly.
I was and am a Helen Clark supporter.
I am particularly happy with the performance of NZSuper.
I will probably be sending chunks of cash to both Labour and the Greens for the 2017 election.
I oppose everything you stand for.
Ad – “I oppose everything you stand for”.
WOW – I ‘stand’ for a law abiding society that isn’t cruel to animals or humans.
You support the opposite via you ‘chunks of cash’ so yes you are correct.
Prove what you do makes any difference at all.
Put it out there. If you have the guts.
Failing that, just keep jeering.
It’s at the core of your character.
“Get Some Guts” eh?
Ad M8, you are missing my point NOTHING will make a difference*, and as I have just proven people are to thick to work that out. 😉
* for the better that is.
Dahr Jamail | Will Paris Climate Talks Be Too Little, Too Late?
The faux goal of 2 degrees Celsius continues to be discussed. Meanwhile, the planet burns.
ACD is, quite literally, extinguishing oceanic life across the planet.
Drought continues to plague vast expanses of the planet as ACD progresses.
Recent NASA data show that the melting ice in western Antarctica is already in “irreversible retreat.”
Renowned climate scientist James Hansen and multiple other scientists have already shown that a planetary temperature increase of 1 degree Celsius above preindustrial baseline temperatures is enough to cause runaway climate feedback loops, extreme weather events and a disastrous sea level rise.
Furthermore, the UK meteorological office has shown that this year’s global temperature average has already surpassed that 1 degree Celsius level.
Any chance this thread could be moderated more closely so it doesn’t end up being full of trolls and arguments about denial or we’re doomed so may as well give up? Both those things are hugely destructive at a time when we urgently need people to feel encouraged and supported to get out and mobilise and change.
I will try and keep an eye on it today.
RA and AG’s comments are destructive, as you say, but they don’t break the policy so don’t trigger moderation. They need instead to be rebutted by replies, as is already happening…
Thanks r0b. I’m impressed by the replies so far. I just hope it doesn’t descend into another thread of long drawn out futile denialist arguments. Those threads are also destructive IMO no matter how well the defense is presented.
Come on Waka’ tell us all exactly what you want this government to do, inspire me
I want this govt to go fuck itself. Was that really the question you wanted to ask me?
There was an article about suicide on one of the MSN sites the other day and the comments section had one person saying how the kids had done ‘climate change’ at school and had come home distressed and depressed. ‘Of course I told them there is nothing to worry about’.
Marching and protesting….activism…. is infinitely a more positive direction to take than hopelessness.
We all know what some feel about the future of our tenure on the planet…some of us want to at least try to turn that future around.
And we will, and we are.
I remember a Mr Suzuki telling the world a couple of years ago that “conservation has failed”. To me, it’s like a grander version of joining any leftie political party. You can’t go into this presuming that the side of the good will win. That will kill you. The point is to unite, to work on the problems together, to give everything you have to it like it’s life and death. Because it is. And, because it is at the core of our moral impulse as human beings to actually try and make things a little bit better. No matter what.
Really well said Ad
Agree entirely – really well put.
I am marching because, although I believe the situation is dire, it is my opportunity to publicly slag off those in the current government who have dragged the chain by deliberately exploiting the environment, leaving our children and grandchildren to pay the terrible price. This may seem a useless gesture to you, Robert, but not to me. Ka whawhai tonu ahau.
Me too TMM
and well said you too, Tautoko Mango Mata.
Please don’t blame the current bunch of wankers, they are no different to the last lot, you know the ones that tell you you can invest in this system for the next 40 od years, then retire on a pension, built up on economic/industrial growth.
The previous bunch of clowns ignored this information http://oilcrash.com/articles/running.htm to the point of introducing Kiwi Saver ?
What exactly are you going to be asking the government to do?
Jess McAllen (awesomely fine journalist) did aa article for The Wireless the other day on the 1982 suicide bombing at the Wanganui Computer Centre.
Neil Roberts left a note. ““Heres [sic] one anarchist down. Hopefully there’s a lot more waking up. One day we’ll win – one day.”
Jess McAllen interviewed Roberts’ friends from that time….
“Most of us survived the feeling of impending doom that this particular era of world politics created by getting drunk, out of it and partying hard.”
We must give our Young People hope. an alternatives to this kind of protest.
I don’t like the article, it starts by being critical of the like the media at the time. Then it copying it by saying Neil as some sort of mental case – who if society had looked after better – would have not committed suicide in such a dramatic fashion. Or – same conclusion, different way of saying it.
Points to consider.
1. Neil did not injury or kill anyone else.
2. That what Neil did was a political action.
3. People are unwilling to look at Neil’s politics for an answer. Especially social democrat’s, who don’t want to face up to the fact that their collapse in the face of a liberalism has only made the world Neil was critical of – a reality.
I personally think violence is anthem to the interest of working people. Because they live in an environment of violence as it is. And two wrongs don’t make a right.
“Then it copying it by saying Neil as some sort of mental case – who if society had looked after better – would have not committed suicide in such a dramatic fashion.”
Hmm, I didn’t get that. I found it a good read, mostly because I didn’t know much about him as a person, so hearing the stories from people he knew was good.
Next month, Wellington City Council will start trialling cameras with sensors that can detect screaming, paint fumes from graffiti and and sense groups that may end up fighting.
Are they called human beings? Human beings can also do things like intervention…..
Walk On The Wildside….
Walk This Way…..
These Boots Were Made For Walking…..
Walking On The Moon…..
Walk For The World…..(made that one up)
See You tomorrow !!
Hey RA. You sound angry and I understand why. But would you get angry if you found yourself against the wall in a firing squad?
We are all against the wall Philj
to little and it has been too fucking late for a while now, but at least we get to march, and some politicians march with you. Youpie yei Yea!
In the meantime some dam collapses, wastewater from a mine washes a way several villages, poisons the water of some 250.000 people washes down some river, poisons everything that lives in there and on the shore, ruins the life of some fishermen and other people living on and off the river.
but that is not climate change, that is just standard industrial pollution, a tragedy as I was told a few weeks ago, not on the scale as global warming n shit.
But honestly by the time global warming does away with the human race, we will already be beaten by the dead nature we created.
Again….repeat, nothing can be done about it, mine accidents are just accidents, cows polluting waterways are just good for business and exports. But hey, lets float some banners and march ….onwards comrades, march….it will make you feel more in charge, in control, less like the suckers we all are.
Not quite sure what your point is there.
You’re upset about a dam in Brazil. Is that it?
I think the point is that we could have done something, but like the burst dam (add in Fukishima and 1001 other major or chronic catastrophes?) we tutted and carried on. On CC, we did nothing (tutted and carried on), just as on other things we do nothing (tut and carry on).
That, for what it’s worth, is how I’d articulate what Sabine wrote.
I’d like to hear Sabine herself on this.
Inchoate dissatisfied harrumphs about everything are just pathetic.
But it’s not quite true though is it. For every enviromental disaster, there are others we prevented. Sabine’s comment is suggesting that nothing can be done. That’s demonstrably not true.
Worse, that nihilistic stance regarding climate change is as bad as the denialists. What we need is for people to mobilise that aren’t already, and those kind of messages tell people they may as well party while the Titanic goes down. That’s an appalling political position to take.
I don’t see it as a ‘nothing can be done’ stance. Neither do I see it as nihilistic.
We did and do nothing and so now…”Oh! Let’s march!” (as though that’s actually doing something)
In other words it’s perfectly reasonable dark cynicism based on observable past and present behaviour. But that’s just my take.
Sabine said “Again….repeat, nothing can be done about it,”. That’s nihilistic, and demonstrably wrong.
I wouldn’t have classed you as nihilistic.
Here’s the point of marching. We urgently need people to change. This is one of the ways we get people to change. Even if it’s simply that fact that so many people mobilise, that changes things. I’m not saying it’s the only change needed, or the necessary change, I’m saying it’s the change we need to get to doing the things we really need to do. I’ve said this, before we can’t get from where we are now to where we need to go without a transition. This is the part of the transition work.
That’s why I’m marching and why it is me doing something.
😉 And I’ve said over and over in a number of ways that there is no transition. A ‘transition’ is an excuse to delay action…a disconnect, a hesitation. I know you disagree, and that’s okay, but if someone is thinking about the steps they need to take before launching on that jump, then they ain’t jumping. And we needed to be in the air by now…
On the ‘nothing can be done’….well, if pollution is seen as business and industrial disasters are seen as accidents, then perhaps the suggestion is that the systemic nature of things is being over-looked or ignored. And that means that nothing is being done and nothing will be done.
But again, that’s just my interpretation and I don’t want to be perceived as putting words in people’s mouths.
My use of the term transition in this case is an observation not a prescription. I don’t see the mainstream as considering transition consciously, but it is going through one (we can look at the changes that have already happened for instance). What you are describing is something different. It’s people who are already thinking about things in a certain way and deliberating, will I jump or not?. That’s not what I meant.
On the ‘nothing can be done’….well, if pollution is seen as business and industrial disasters are seen as accidents, then perhaps the suggestion is that the systemic nature of things is being over-looked or ignored. And that means that nothing is being done and nothing will be done.
Sure, and if you believe that the system is all powerful (god perhaps?) and/or the only thing that exists, then I could see why one might be nihilistic and believe that nothing can be done. I just think the evidence doesn’t support that. ‘We’ are much more than teh power mongers, and we have prevented many disasters and we have made gains environmentally in the right direction.
Obviously I don’t subscribe to the notion that because the system still exists nothing is being done or can be done.
As an example, because I’ve been thinking about the Tour today, when I think back to that time and what we considered was possible in changing attitudes about racism, I might describe that time as one of transition. Radicals acted, many in the mainstream supported them, and the culture was changed. But that transition wasn’t people sitting down trying to decide whether they wanted to be racist or not. It was something that happened to them, and it was facilitated by activists who were already ahead of the ball.
Tailings dams are a bit of a joker in the environmental pack. Typically a mineral processing plant will reject anything up to 99.9% of the big chunky rock that goes in, as a finely ground powder-like material going out.
This material presents two general hazards; one it is usually entirely uncompacted. When mixed with water it will flow as a mud. And secondly – depending very much on the ore body and the processing plant – may or may not contain heavy metals and other toxins, that because of it’s extremely high surface area can be highly bio-active.
Modern mining operations are very aware of these hazards, and typically employ quite a few process and enviro engineers to monitor and mitigate the risks. Often they do a very good job. But not always. BHP has badly fucked up in Brazil, and are going to be hit with some massive externalities.
In general though, industry is not oblivious to these matters. Events like Piper Alpha, Three Mile Island and Bhopal – while absolutely tragic and horrendous at the time – nonetheless had a very positive impact on engineering design, HAZOP processes and the development of safety technologies that have dramatically reduced the incidence of these major disasters.
This is way more than a ‘dam in Brazil’. It comes on top of another recent incident where Barrick had a major operational fuckup and released a huge amount of cyanide tailings into a river.
My point is that you are both wrong. Much more than tut-tutting will be going on, just not in public. Nor will they be ignored; these events are reverberating around the industry and will result in change.
What we have as humans is the ability to work collectively and build ethical relationships with each other and the world. And accept that we are all part of one interrelated organic holistic system – Planet earth. It’s worth fighting for. My children and I will be marching tomorrow and joining with all the other citizens of the world who care.
Kiwi Kevin Hester:
Yesterday I was interviewed on Greenplanetfm in Auckland speaking about our unfolding climate catastrophe, how the signing of the TPPA would negatively affect our ability to mitigate and the myriad of issues surrounding the single greatest challenge our species and biosphere have ever confronted.
Last October I was interviewed on the same station with Professor Guy McPherson as we began our NZ speaking tour, I had spoken to Michael Mann prior to the tour and had mentioned that Guy and I believed that we were already in abrupt climate change and Mike Mann replied ” I can’t go there yet Kev'”
Last week in a seminar in Hamilton I asked NZ’s leading climate scientist Professor Jim Salinger formerly of NIWA ” When are we going to accept that we are in abrupt climate change?” and he replied ” Now, abrupt climate change is under way”
These issues and more in the interview.
Planet – FM Live Capture Programme
William Bibb Climate disruption is Now! And it will worsen in an exponential fashion. The erroneous economic assumptions of an industrialized civilization based on unlimited growth based on burning fossil fuels, unsustainable agricultural practices, and diets based on livestock and dairy are as stupid as those of the inhabitants of Easter Island. The icons of our society canot be pulled down because they are too big. On Easter Island, the eyes of the huge icons were chisled out. Another false religion leading to mass extinction.
Thanks for this post, and the links
I hope on your march today that you insist on the government doing a few things, like –
Start rationing food,
Bring this plan into action The 105 pages document titled “Oil Demand Restraint Options for New Zealand” is available as a PDF file (924 KB) at . which = no more personal vehicular transport 😉
Ban imports of crap = close the Warehouse
Bring in 80% unemployment
Introduce martial law
Massive brownouts of electricity
Basically we would need to turn NZ into Baghdad 2010, hopefully without all the murders.
I’m looking forward to seeing the sign – GIVE US UNEMPLOYMENT AND RATIONING
But na you will all be out there with ya smart phones, taking selfies, to show ya mates how much you care
Climate change – it is the new fashion statement, but don’t insist on anything that might actually do something.
Come on everyone give me a personal list of what you expect this government to do.
What a joke this march is.
I don’t expect this government to do much of anything. I don’t expect the next government to do much of anything.
What I expect is that the people who contribute most to CC (broadly speaking, the more successful middle class types) will choose to do not much of anything either, and (eventually) bewail government inaction and direction.
It’s the last bit that offers a smidgen of hope. Even though it’s too late for 2 degrees C (the numbers simply won’t stack up), there is a chance, if runaway loops haven’t already hit, to limit the warming at something not too much above 2 degrees C.
It just might be possible to bring those who have benefited most from trashing the climate on board, in a last gasp attempt to limit the extent of future catastrophe.
At some point in the very near future then, they must buy into the idea of a general work and debt strike. That crashes our fossil hungry economy real fast. I can’t honestly see any other action that will be effective enough, but fully recognise that even that may be too little too late.
Thing about lost causes is that they offer an excellent opportunity to fight with every last fibre of what you have in you – ie, no point in holding anything back. And sometimes, just sometimes, it turns out the lost cause wasn’t so lost after all.
I remember the bemoaning of protests of the anti nuclear kind… There was a genuine fear among many (borne out later when documents were unsealed) that the world was on the brink of something incredibly self destructive. The status quo-ers suggested the economy would collapse if we went nuclear free, that being snubbed by australia and USA would ruin us and open us up to military threats. (see BM for a modern example of this kind of do-nothinger)
Far from doing any of that it was the beginning of a worldwide movement to dial back the rhetoric and stockpiling. Bolger later admitted he was wrong.
I expect the same to happen in a few years with climate change…
Not sure I understand your angle here. I want the economy to be collapsed. It’s not just utterly necessary, but desirable from my point of view.
Good for you @ economy
“hing about lost causes is that they offer an excellent opportunity to fight with every last fibre of what you have in you – ie, no point in holding anything back. And sometimes, just sometimes, it turns out the lost cause wasn’t so lost after all.”
My angle was that this reminds me of the anti nuclear movement, something which was mocked and bemoaned by those wanting to keep a right ideology and a right government. That’s all.
Marching/Protest can give meaning. And evn IF, as RA suggests, it can change nothing, people feel as though they have moved rather than stood still. He is not moving or, as far as I can tell, doing anything but throwing up his hands in a bizarre self satisfied self righteousness that everyone is doomed because no one listened to him soon enough, so why bother. with anything, but building a bunker…accordingly, he feeds the meme of the Right and the status quoers that CC-ers are loonies and dismissable. In my mind that makes him as bad as those who deny CC at all
I have dealt with your type before.
Professionally I dedicate my waking life to building public transport systems. And the results from them are fantastic.
Personally, my footprint is reasonably low for the standard bourgeoisie.
No, I won’t be taking photographs of any kind. Or waving any banners. The most important thing is to be on the march and strike up conversations encouraging each other onto the next great campaign we’re all involved in. Whatever it is.
Don’t mind how much you sneer. I don’t have to stand on the shoulders of giants, or the heads of trolls. I simply have to be proud of what I have changed in this world and will continue to change. And I am.
That, for me is the crucial act…to talk and push organisational possibilities. Unfortunately, these marches and rallies are inimical to organising. No space is given for meaningful communication throughout or within the body of those participating.
Everyone is gathered together and spoken to and at. Then they go home, having snatched maybe five minutes with a few people (probably in reality only ‘catching up’ with familiar faces). There could be a hundred or a thousand simultaneous useful conversations and interactions going on, churning, looping back and creating a swell of empowerment as good ideas catch on and inform/enthuse possible future actions or directions – but no.
They also can get someone to go along who as wavering.
Valid criticism, Bill.
But there is a danger in trying to do too much and not achieving any of it.
Maybe the marches will be amongst many different prompts and impulses that collectively lead people to have those conversations, to think about the unthinkable, and find it isn’t so unthinkable.
And maybe some people might be able to look around for half an hour and not feel so isolated by all this. Because one of the many dangers is people becoming more tribal, insular, and hostile in response to feeling threatened. That route has a guaranteed outcome.
I really don’t know what makes a difference, it’s trial and error, but I don’t think these kinds of actions will have turn out to have been more a part of the problem than they were part of any answers. They may have no impact. But no-one who has thought about it is claiming these marches are any kind of ‘response’ in and of themselves.
@ Robert Atack “Come on everyone give me a personal list of what you expect this government to do.”
1. Make a serious long term commitment to ending the use of fossil fuels.
2. fund research and development of biofuels (not stifled by too early commercialisation)
3. fund research and development of alternatives to oil based materials.
4. commit to extensive recycling…including NZ based recyclers.
5. renationalise the electricity companies. Profit and ‘power down’ initiatives do not share the same bed harmoniously.
6. revitalise the Rail Network…electrified.
7.Encourage, and support with the latest technology, a vast reduction in unnecessary air travel. This could be a simple as government meetings and conferences being live streamed with interactive capabilities.
That’ll do for now.
Oh, 8. Discourage rampant consumerism….because bugger me dead…do folk like to spend on shit they don’t need. Consumerism, and it’s constant bedmate advertising, are very possibly the biggest problem we have.
Hamilton March tomorrow for us….
1 ‘we’ haven’t got ‘long term’
2 biofuels http://www.oilcrash.com/articles/pf_bio.htm
3 It will take as much or more energy to make alternatives as the oil based ones. ie anything corn based for a starter.
4 About the only thing that is worth recycling is aluminum cans, most stuff uses more energy.
5 electricity has a massive footprint, no matter where you get it from.
7. Air travel along with coal fired electricity is actually ‘helping’ at the moment, once these 2 things stop the planet goes up another .6c … lookup BBC global dimming 2005 or listen to Guy – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYUMi2UPDLk
8 Just feeding 7.3 billion people is enough to lock in CC, giving them warm houses and all the crap we think is our ‘human right’ is only punching the nail home.
Your 8 suggestions look like you want to support BAU
“8 Just feeding 7.3 billion people is enough to lock in CC”
I’m sure I’ll end up regretting asking this, but citation needed.
Then if a march doesnt help or hurt and peoe got fresh air and exercise.
I am up to my eyes in end of semester grading… deadlines Monday. Please march for me.
The global economy ‘must grow’ or the global economy ‘will crash’
The institutions and corporations will fight for survival as they are structurally designed to do, at the expense of all else
Expecting these same institutions and corporations to alter direction is like clapping at thunder
Come on Robert At, where’s your list?
What are you doing?
Where’s your list?
Anything? State it clearly for us all to see.
Ad. Robert has no list. Whether you, I or anyone else is comfortable with his approach, the fact is that he’s just echoing a growing and perhaps majority scientific view – it’s too late.
Too late for what?
I haven’t followed any of Robert’s links today, but in the past he has used spurious sources, and sometimes his claims aren’t supported by the links he provides. I wouldn’t take his comments as backed by science.
Too late to say with any certainty that 2 degrees C can be avoided. The numbers that inform the action necessary to give ourselves even just a 50/50 chance of 2 degrees don’t look too good either. (That’s why my earlier comments refer to a deliberate crashing of the market economy; that’s what it’ll take) Maybe people need to think about that? A 50/50 chance that the car you’re about to get into will get seriously smashed up. You taking that ride? A 50/50 chance that somebody left the mains electricity on. You still wanna poke around with that screw driver?
Observation and extrapolation from known data says we’re currently heading for 3, 4, 5… degrees C (ie – in line with the very worst IPCC scenario which is only business as usual) . Uncertainty comes into play given the huge complexity of the systems being looked at. But two degrees is gone.
A growing number within the scientific community are concluding that tipping points have been crossed indicating ‘too late to anything at all about AGW’, as the tipping points have already taken it out of our hands and we can only be spectators to Global Warming as opposed to agents affecting Anthropological Global Warming.
Essentially – at least as far as I can ascertain – the two camps have a glass empty/glass full approach to the degree of uncertainty in all of this. Whether or not observations of Greenland ice-sheets, arctic ice cover or various antarctic ice shelves etc come into people’s reckonings is probably a contributory factor to their relative optimism/pessimism.
Too late to say with any certainty that 2 degrees C can be avoided. The numbers that inform the action necessary to give ourselves even just a 50/50 chance of 2 degrees don’t look too good either.
That’s not what Robert is saying. He is saying there is absolutely no chance that we can do anything at all to avert catastrophic CC and extinction of humans (and presumably mass extinction of ecosystems). You and he are not talking about the same things, so I’m surprised to see you suggesting that you are.
Maybe I was attempting to add a dash of realism – or at least realistic hope – in terms of balance between what I’m perceiving to be fairly polar opposites in this debate? (The incremental change brigade who reckon having cake and eating it is an option, and the…well, I don’t quite have appropriate terms to summarise RA’s position tbh)
Link for Weka – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPH_mnWdmho @26 min –
“Yes, flocks of chickens, herds of cows, and thousands of swine contribute to more green house gas emissions than all the worlds cars, lorries, buses, trains, ships and planes combined.
[lprent: Added the quotes around the bit you were were quoting from weka. Please be more careful. ]
I had a vasectomy, which apart from killing myself was the only thing that would make a difference.
Been a vege for 30 years
I do this not to ‘save the planet’ but to reduce pain and suffering, of the animals, and the unborn children.
And luck has it, that I don’t have children.
I’ve even had my 4 dogs and 2 cats ‘fixed’, again not to ‘save the planet’ but because fucking humans can’t be trusted with any form of life, I would not trust them with a puppy let alone my child.
I did all this shit http://oilcrash.com/articles/thankyou.htm spent 24K pissing against the wall of ignorance. This is why I can say what I say, because I gave it my best shot, and I just got crapped on.
WHO IN NEW ZEALAND HAS BEEN INFORMED? http://oilcrash.com/articles/whatinfo.htm
BUSINESS AS USUAL DESPITE AL GORE’S WARNINGS Cost me $900.00
Peak Oil – photo essay of futility
Delivering DVDs to the New Zealand parliament I posted over 500 DVDs over several years to parliament, and gave away over 12,000
Handed out 3,000 copies of this in one day on the streets of Wellington http://oilcrash.com/articles/running.htm – had 10,000 copies printed (it fits on 2 sides of an A4)
Is that enough of an effort Ad ?
“I do this not to ‘save the planet’ but to reduce pain and suffering, of the animals, and the unborn children.”
You have said here in the past that we will have to stop climate refugees with guns, so don’t go pretending to be all warm fuzzies about animals and stopping the babies suffering.
No species just lies down and gives up, which seems to be what you are suggesting we do.
And before anyone suggests it’s an unfortunate consequence of heightened public safety concerns.
Hey Robert At you sound spent.
So the fields’ clear for us.
As for ‘is that enough?’
Clearly only enough for you.
Awesome march in Auckland.
Huge, hopeful, and fun.
Incidentally, has Kristin Gillies been reassigned sex/gender change by the media or is that an accurate reflection of the current status?
Agreed Ad! Great to see so many MPs along too. The Greens were there in force of course, but was especially nice to see Andrew Little and other key members of the Labour Caucus there as well.
I saw one Mana flag.
My estimate ( as a seasoned protester) of the Auckland one is over 12,000 but for some inexplicable reason Radio NZ is claiming 3000. I can only assume someone turned up to Albert Park early and left some time before the march started. There is a Youtube clip on this Herald article of one section of the march in upper Queen Street.
That’s probably a fair assessment from you there Karen. My thoughts were about 3000 around the Band Rotunda prior to the march – certainly many times that on the march itself. Bit disappointing from RNZ.
Couple of hundred turned out in Blenheim for the local Climate March- addressed by local Green MP, local Labour candidate, a district councillor, and a local businessman among others, with a kapahaka group and music.
More turned out today than for the 1981 Anti Tour marches, anyway, as my memory triggered back 34 years walking past the same shops.
Best story was one delivered about complacency, where a business-suited body was heard to say as it plummeted towards the ground past a mid-story window, “So far, so good!”
Mention was also made of the local forest fire in the Waikakaho valley, where conditions for such occurrences are made more likely by heat, drought and high winds- all exacerbated by climate change.
Just returned from the ChCh march – big numbers and lots of children. The mayor spoke well, I thought.
The whole movement reminded me of the 100 monkeys – you know, when the 100th monkey adopted the same trick as the previous 99, the whole tribe knew it too.
Anti-nuclear campaigners were in a minority originally – then suddenly, the whole country became nuclear free, and proud of it.
With luck, the same will happen with the movement against climate change.
+100…and ALL political parties on the Left must have a high profile on Climate Change so they can move on it effectively locally and internationally
…the initiative will not come from right wing parties like jonkey nact or coalitions with the right wing corporates and their interests
However the biggest driver of climate change is overpopulation
As John Grey states above ….”Along with most environmentalists nowadays, Klein doesn’t discuss overpopulation. But there can be little doubt that population pressure has been a powerful driver of environmental crisis…”
….and overpopulation is an emancipation feminist issue, a third world issue, a patriarchal power and control issue and a patriarchal religion issue
This is George Monbiot on overpopulation
“Perhaps it’s no coincidence that so many post-reproductive white men are obsessed with human population growth, as it’s about the only environmental problem of which they can wash their hands.”
“If we want to reduce our impacts this century, the paper concludes, it’s consumption we must address.”
“Human numbers are rising at roughly 1.2% a year. Livestock numbers are rising at around 2.4% a year.”
Yep had already heard about this film, and this government wants to continue to increase cow numbers!
Dumb and dumber!
The graphics for the consultation document on the target for Paris had agriculture illustrated by nothing but animals.( Maybe that’s because the Nats know that the cadmium levels in our soils are too high for crops? Nah, don’t think they do such joined up thinking.)
That’s the trouble- they just don’t think about anything but money for them and their mates and screw everyone, and everything else.
That film is vegan propaganda and apparently contains many inaccuracies and misrepresentations.
The issue isn’t eating meat/dairy or not, it’s whether we use industrial farming designed for the global economy and whether we farm for profit not food. Replacing omnivore diets with vegan diets just perpetuates those problems and distracts us from lowering consumption.
Sustainable agriculture produces food locally and within the capabilities of each watershed or landbase. Some of that food will by necessity be animals (meat and dairy).
I’d heard about it, but not seen it. I agree Weka about the omnivore diet being the way to go. So much vegan food is imported (soy and rice). We do need to reduce cow numbers though.
“We do need to reduce cow numbers though.”
Completely agree. Dairy numbers in NZ has nothing to do with food and everything to do with profit.
Monbiot is wrong…and I dont care who HE is.
A world with a drastically cut human population ( eg by a half or three quarters) would avert the ultimate climate change crisis….a world uninhabitable for ALL species.
It is patriarchal male anthropocentricism which has brought about this gross overpopulation and environmental crisis
It is about time more women took a leadership role on the issue of Climate Change … time for the male ‘experts’ and male power brokers controlling the world to move aside and make way for women and the final feminist revolution…to SAVE GAIA
‘Climate change is a feminist issue’ by Mary Fitzgerald
“Wherever women have adequate access to contraception, education, the right to work, equality before the law, the birth rate plummets. And this is where western liberal proclivities towards cultural relativism start to break down. However much we might want to respect other cultures, those that deny women these rights are directly harming all of us, even if our own society is an equitable, gender-blind utopia. Unless we want a world ravaged by droughts and floods, we are going to have to start demanding women be treated as equal citizens — everywhere. In fact, you don’t even have to call it feminism. You could call it calculated self-interest.”
We don’t need a female to run the world, just a shit hot male, one that is above the rest. A Modern Man.
You know that we’re the females and shit hot males that are needed, right?
Just got to deny those who would exercise illegitimate authority and we’re half way there 😉
A bit of political tr0lling from 1915:
A modern man, would be highly reassuring. Does it really matter, in the end, if a male controls the world, it does not. The right man is all we need, and then females and males are in safe hands.
It is ridiculous to think a man can’t rule the world. The best person will always lead the way, and does it matter if it is a man?
I would rather have a well-bred, thoughtful, all-rounded genius looking after me, thank you very much.
I am female, and if ‘he’ is right for the job, then it is ‘he’ that will have the job. I am quite happy with this.
so, you’re going to vote based on woman’s day personality fluff?
i suggest reading up on the policies and ignoring the soft focus photoshopped smiles
I can do ‘everything’ and ‘anything’ whenever I want and ‘still’ I always know best, ropata.
Well they are probably all reptiles. Most politicians are.
Although I do enjoy being entertained, it would be, probably Donald Trump, he would amuse me like no other, and then he would most likely get assassinated – he is a potty mouth.
If he were president, I would probably watch the 6 ‘o’ clock news. The Americans haven’t produced a good comedy for years.
classic indeed ropata 😀
Well it is only fanatical freaks that think it has to go either way. If the role is suited for a particular kind (male or female), what I am saying is – does it really matter what sex that person is?
The role can’t go to a subordinate male or ‘any’ male, now can it?
I’m not saying men, in general, should rule the world, I am saying there could be one male born for that role.
Does that make females the weaker sex, or every other man, who didn’t make the job, pathetic, no!
Someone has to be the leader and it can’t go to someone who can’t do the job.
There is only ‘one’ that ‘can’ do the job – rest assured he is most perfect.
Please don’t say Trump
No they don’t. We don’t need leaders at all. In fact, IMO, leaders tend to be a problem as ego mania takes hold of them and they become arbitrary and ruthless.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Justin Trudeau perhaps?
Can we join Canada???
“Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
Well that is your thoughts, Draco.
The most powerful are actually very humble and refined, but your name ‘is’ Draco so what would you know, you have never been to the top, and you will never get there either, so what would you know?
Monbiot suggests eating less meat, you suggest killing half to three quarters of the world’s population. Vegetarianism or genocide? So hard to choose.
liar…i did NOT suggest killing off “half to three quarters the world’s population” ( typical male ….killing and war on the brain…when they are not trying to control women)
…what I am suggesting is that the planet would not be in the predicament of overpopulation and Climate Change if women had been allowed emancipation and equality long ago
… educated women with contraception and careers and self determination do not over- breed, if they breed at all
…most of the world’s problems including climate change are caused by men ( try and deny that )….men have been in control for too long
…what we have here in Climate Change is a YANG problem with a vengeance
…time for GAIA to strike back and women to take control
I will rephrase for you – no it isn’t time for woman to take control, it’s time to cut the head off the snake – all problems solved.
You see I am woman, and I know best. It isn’t about sex my dear – it is about ‘species’. One is better than the other.
Lisbeth, are you so deluded that you think men and women are different species?
they are a different species!…there is something genetically wrong with men ( …they can make amusing pets if tamed and well trained ….it is the taming that is the problem…and it takes so much effort …and most are completely untrainable….so many women are now saying …why bother?)
[Mary Jemison] was born at sea as her parents fled the Irish famine of 1741. Her father cleared land in western Pennsylvania to become a flax farmer supplying the Irish linen industry and thus part of the Atlantic system. During the French and Indian War of mid-century the Shawnee killed him and his family, excepting Mary who, according to their custom, was adopted by Seneca women as a replacement of a brother who had been killed. She learned a new language and adopted a new name, Deh-he-wa-mis. Mary learned common field horticulture cultivating the “three sisters”: corn, squash, and beans. Whether gathering wood for the woodpile or hoeing weeds in the field or husking corn, her work was in common with the other women.
Mary Jemison fled to Letchworth Gorge from the terrorizing onslaught in 1779 of General Sullivan who killed and burnt everything—corn, orchards, cabins, men, women, and children—of the Iroquois. With two children on her back and three trailing behind she found refuge in the relatively inaccessible gorge where two runaway African American former slaves made her welcome. They lived in common for several years.
Given the opportunity in 1797 to return to so-called “white” society, she refused. That was at the peak of the second historical wave of enclosures. Despite the settlers’ terror, the commons was preserved by the unexpected endeavors of a commons of Irish, Iroquois, and African people. Her white, Anglo editor of 1824 agreed that “she was the protectress of the homeless fugitive, and made welcome the weary traveller.”
It was the women of the Haudenosaunee who preserved the commons
in the midst of the expropriations attendant on the creation of the USA. It is the women of the world who continue to do so in the midst of our dark times.
– – Peter Linebaugh, “Stop, Thief! The Commons, Enclosures, and Resistance”, PM Press (2014)
Explain then Chooky , how we go about trying to fix the CC problem. You said
” A world with a drastically cut human population ( eg by a half or three quarters) would avert the ultimate climate change crisis”
Yeah- stating the obvious, but that isn’t a solution, is it?
“educated women with contraception and careers and self determination do not over- breed, if they breed at all”- um, I’m a self employed woman, have a tertiary degree and 3 kids, exception that proves the rule, I guess.
“time for GAIA to strike back and women to take control”
We don’t need more separatism and women taking control over men. We need to work together.
I dont have any solutions to the Climate Change problem…it is probably too late
(GAIA will solve it and as Lovelock says it wont be pretty
…but I do think
1,) women have to be in a leadership role in Climate Change issues ( they are often more practical and compassionate than men… and closer to the Earth, especially in the third world)
2.) womens’ emancipation around the world is crucial for population control
3.) particularly women must be in charge of controlling their own fertility…contraception and abortion must be available for all who want it
4. ) there must urgently be an examination of the anthropocentric male values which have created Climate Change
…this will involve challenging laissez faire corporate Capitalism and patriarchal monotheistic religions and patriarchal cultures
…we must learn and take advice from the primal polytheistic peoples who have traditionally lived close to the Earth ( leaving a small footprint) and been non- anthropocentric conservationists…like the American Indians, the Australian Aboriginies and NZ Maori
…all technology must be judged as to how GAIA friendly it is …
Using oil and industrialised harvesting of entire oceans and forests, homo sapiens has forced the Earth’s ecosystems far outside sustainable limits. We have no coherent or significant plan to address the problems, but Nature will eventually cull our population, and we only have ourselves to blame.
John Grey is wrong if he’s suggesting CC is linked to over-population. It isn’t linked. CC is because of emissions. The emissions we absolutely need to eradicate are those linked to fossil fuels. Over populated land masses, or area full of piss poor people do not burn much, if any, fossil fuel, neither directly nor indirectly.
and yet large populations upscaling their economies to match the West are also increasing their carbon emissions. Therefore the proportion of the planet that has high consumption lives are a problem where they are also increasing their population.
(myself, I think relatively small populations like NZ are also a problem were we increasing our numbers. It’s all about the landbase and whether it can sustain who lives there. If food production and transport are a big chunk of emissions, then producing and eating local food is critical, and the main determinant of that being possible is population relative to local ecological systems).
I’ve had this discussion before. Even with the recent growth rates of India and China, by the time the mean Indian or Chinese person was getting anywhere near the average consumption of the OECD, the CC thing will either have been completely lost or we will have got our shit together, weathered the storm and be on zero emission energy supply.
In the second scenario, overpopulation becomes the main problem. But in terms of CC, it’s a non-issue.
using the arithmetic mean (developing /oecd) tends to obscure the absolute emissions growth from developing countries.
The magnitude of the emissions from agriculture alone (and which are excluded from non annex 1 countries mitigation) is not a trivial problem.
Where would the reduction in potential emissions of say 5% have a real effect?
Our whole economic system depends on the extravangant use of fossil fuels, and the protests are calling for the power brokers to effectively disrupt the economy and financial systems.. I just can’t see how this works. There are too many people whose lives are embedded in this system to force change. 10-15% of people (green voters) want to vote for a change in system in some form. I can’t see the rest of the population giving up some part of their livelihoods to address a threat that they see is still in the future and that doesn’t effect them directly.
As Nicole Foss points out this is hardly motivational, and it’s easier to motivate someone to a more immediate threat like the unsustainability of our financial system.
Change takes time maui. The pressure is building and more people now feel CC as an immediate issue than five years ago. I don’t think we have to see the perfect plan and how it will work out. We just have to keep the momentum going and do everything that we can.
change takes time…and the time for successful change was 25 years ago.
Well actually no, I was only 14. Too young.
It is actually ‘now’ that change is due.
I never get my timings wrong.
We must do what we can of course, but the huge rate of change needed in society to avoid a severe climate and energy crisis is now unachievable. Even now, our leadership class continues their public placating games of ‘extend and pretend’.
As for never getting your timings wrong…you’ve never burnt something in the kitchen? If thats the case you are better than I.
“but the huge rate of change needed in society to avoid a severe climate and energy crisis is now unachievable”
I doubt it- we have ‘perfect’ problems right now, to be problem solved ‘perfectly’, and by the right person.
Timing is everything.
lol. I’m guessing new age faith based thinking there.
Evidence, and history, and human experience tell us that not all things are solvable. I think CV is a little off (I’m not particularly worried about the energy crisis for instance), but in terms of the seriousness of the crisis he’s on the mark, mainly because he’s been listening and talking people who know what they are talking about. That trumps attitudinal thinking every time (although attitude is also critical).
“change takes time…and the time for successful change was 25 years ago.”
I think it depends on what our expectations are CV. Hindsight is behind us. What would ‘successful’ change look like now? I’d be happy if the global economy did a year or so medium paced collapse (enough time so we don’t all starve). That’d stop many GHG emissions in their tracks. But would it also lead to mass pollution via nuclear power plants and other highly damaging industrial infrastructure not being looked after as well? The biggest thing I see is that as you say, we’re 25 years behind track, and the tipping points are going to be way more difficult to ride and manage.
Another possibility is that the rate of change accelerates. If we look at the change within the last five years and consider that it might continue but exponentially, a huge amount could change in the next five years, multiple tipping points in culture and society that outstrips the denialists and the we don’t give a shit greedy fucks that are currently in power.
Those are the things I am working for, the places in the systems where they are changing and where we can push a bit and influence direction and be prepared to transition (sorry Bill) fast. Needless to say I’m not waiting on our esteemed leaders. They will be following (and some of them will be very happy to finally be able to do something)
Organisers claim 60,000 at Melbourne march!
Have to give credit for the guys walking from petone to wellington.
a few things come to mind:
dont look to wellington for leadership.
help build resilience in your community.
affluenza is rife within aotearoa. (think about how much food is unconsumed in your home, dvds, magazine subscription etc)
cruelly, at the same time as grinding poverty.
i kinda agree that the ‘tripping’ of the economy is what is needed.
Worldwide Climate Marches start in New Zealand
Many people that I know will be attending the Climate march. I am personally unable to attend due to my health but despite that there will be people demanding to know why I am not there.
There will be speeches asking (or demanding) the politicians to take action to stop climate change – as if it was just a question of the politicians agreeing to flick a switch.
It is all akin to demanding that the gate be closed after the horse has bolted. “You’ve got to do something!”. So close the gate.
All very symbolic. But useless.
I am all in favour of people getting together and supporting each other but with the self-delusion that I’m sure will dominate I couldn’t bear it.
Pardon my cynicism but my reaction is more along the following lines.
Above from Seemorerocks
Huge turnout in Auckland and with lots of families too.
If the reality was for all these people marching that they’d have to give up tomorrow: driving, xboxes, playstations, holidays etc… I wonder how many would march?
If not that extreme, a significant pay cut?
It’s a fair question infused.
My answer is to pose another one … exactly what would you be giving up? Because while the world we live in offers many superficial, material baubles, I don’t think many of us actually enjoy them all that much.
Personally I’d give up quite a lot to live in a world that was less grasping and greedy. If we lived in close and trusting communities where people naturally reached out to help each other, most of us could get by with a whole lot less.
But that’s just the idealist in me talking.
Never had a license, an x-box, a playstation…erm, last holiday? – would have to think about that – no job, nor desire to have one…
But even if I had all of those things, I still wouldn’t really be the problem.
Parato’s Rule. 80% of the output from a system is down to 20% of the input. The drivers of climate change are (roughly) about 5% of the worlds’ population who produce (roughly) about 50% of emissions.
In NZ terms, that’s the reasonably successful middle classes (roughly speaking again). They are the ones who tend to fly up, down and out of the country – who go for holidays overseas fairly regularly – who fly to conferences or business/academic meetings regularly – who live highly consumerist lifestyles (weekend away again) fueled by large fossil fuel consumption in terms of travel and in terms of the relatively large amount of goods and services they consume.
Somehow, I don’t think they would have had a proportional presence at the marches.
Don’t blame the middle class, it’s the farmers (who are commonly in the top 5%) and large corporations and trucking companies who are pumping CO2 and methane like there’s no tomorrow. These groups need the correct incentives to change their behaviour. Unfortunately the NACToid Corp(tm) is more interested in serving themselves and their paymasters. The common people of Aotearoa are peripheral at best, and just fodder for the PR machine
Wealth and carbon use are kind of correlated. You don’t want to accept that fact, then fine. Doesn’t change the fact though. I’m sure you have no trouble recognising that the super rich are generally huge emmiters, what with their private jets and multi-million dollar sea going vessels and all the life style that goes with it. Or do you think the farmer in India is as much a contributor to CC as the CEO of whatever Fortune 500 company?
What about the Indian farmer compared to the CC scientist who is flying ‘all over’ doing research or attending conferences?
What about compared to the politician flying up and down the country every week?
What about compared to the middle class earners who regularly fly half way around the world to visit family?
What about compared to (again) the middle class earners who think nothing of flying for a weekend away or a days shopping?
Actually, sod comparing the Indian farmer. Instead, compare anyone in NZ earning (say) below the average wage. (< ~ $30 000?)
Fair point, but I’m saying your “middle class earners” are more likely to be in the top 10% of wealth in NZ (100K+ pa). The average kiwi is not rich (~30K pa).
Sorry. What I was trying to say was ‘those middle class people who do earn enough to ‘x y and z’. I wasn’t meaning to imply that all middle class people earn the money necessary to contemplate the lifestyle I tried to signpost with those examples of shopping/holidaying etc.
“farmers (who are commonly in the top 5%) and large corporations and trucking companies”
Those farmers, corporations and trucking companies are not ‘pumping co2’ for the hell of it, it’s byproduct of them producing things that the middle class, and everyone else, desire.
no excuse for them to be exempt from carbon pricing
“Producing things that the middle class, and everyone else, desire”
Don’t think we are talking about the same country David, how much of the food consumed here is produced by our farmers?
Trucking companies are ‘pumping CO2’ in an industry being subsidised by the taxpayers who pay billions to repair the roads that the trucks destroy. Meanwhile this government disables the rail system that would have been able to move freight with lower CO2 emissions.
Corporations only exist to make money for their shareholders. They have huge marketing budgets to manufacture “desire” for their products.
well said Corokia
Carbon footprints by NZ industry (pie chart)
Read more here:
In NZ terms, that’s the reasonably successful middle classes (roughly speaking again). They are the ones who tend to fly up, down and out of the country – who go for holidays overseas fairly regularly – who fly to conferences or business/academic meetings regularly – who live highly consumerist lifestyles (weekend away again) fueled by large fossil fuel consumption in terms of travel and in terms of the relatively large amount of goods and services they consume.
Not sure about that. If we look at NZ (in the context of infused’s question), then food miles are a significant proportion of our ecological footprint (of which carbon emissions are part). So that’s everyone in NZ not growing their own food or buying from local producers. That’s most of us irrespective of class.
If we look at transport, and leaving out luxury travel for a moment, then I’d hazard a guess that the very low end of the spectrum is low, but that the differences between the upper middle classes and the lower middle classes/relatively ok working class aren’t as big as you suggest.
Playing around with footprint calculators online soon shows that in a country like NZ there is a limit to how much an indiviual can downsize their footprint because we are a developped nation and we all share those things that put us in overshoot (eg food production, energy production). They’re fairly blunt tools, but try it out and you’ll see what I mean.
I agree that the well off are going to have a hard time adjusting in the terms that infused sets, but I think many other will too. We’re all used to buying cheap goods imported from overseas.
According to this NZ footprint calculation, travel accounts fo 7% and holidays 5%. Compared to food 56% and consumer goods 23%
(the reason I’m choosing ecological footprint calculations is because they show real life parameters on what living sustainability actually is, which is what the middle classes are going to look at when they realise they have to give shit up).
I’d be very interested to know what those percentages are when related to people on given lifestyles. The average for holidays may well be 5%, but that’s no more informative than saying the average wage is $30 or 40 000. Some people, we know, earn far more than that but it ‘disappears’ into the average. Same with emissions.
sure, but then you’re using figures that include someone living in Somalia and someone living on Wall St, and are based on theoretical assumptions. Not trying to be smart there, just saying that it’s useful to look at a range of ways to understand this and it’s easy to write off one’s we’re not using.
“I’d be very interested to know what those percentages are when related to people on given lifestyles.”
I think you’ve missed the point. In NZ we share big chunks of the footprint. I’ve already given an example of food. Doesn’t matter if you are eating fancy organic steak or a burger from McDonalds, the footprint isn’t going to vary that much. In that case we all share the load of the industrial food supply chains.
Yes we share some parts of the footprint, sure. Just like all of us hooked to the grid share a footprint there too. The variation in the size of individual impact can be, and is, enormous though.
And as far as I can see from a quick look at the links you provided, the “8 Tribes” analysis is an exercise in averaging that doesn’t specifically isolate income. Sure, there are poorer communities with a lower footprint – I think (my NZ geography/knowledge isn’t so hot 😉 ) and probably some anomalies due to unique local conditions.
All of that – the sharing of given footprints or ‘averages’ (that are inevitably driven up by ‘high end users’ just as income averages are driven up by ‘high end earners’) – smudges or hides any insight as to the correlation between high earners and high emitters.
Given that in a global context, life styles producing emissions are generally based on available monetary wealth, comparing an Indian farmer to a stockbroker is valid whether that stockbroker lives in Mumbai, London or NY.
The 20/80 rule applies globally. It also applies within countries, hence my suggestion that the poorer quintiles within NZ could be compared to the richer ones and the same conclusion reached.
Lastly, 20/80 relationship suggests 1/50 relationship, but because it becomes even more rough and ready having been run 3 times to get the 1/50, it’s ‘wise’ to introduce elasticity to the numbers and talk of ranges – so 1- 5 or even 1 – 10 / 40 – 60 or 30 -70.
The principle holds. and it’s apparently been found to be ‘accurate’ in terms of emissions.
+1 for the level headed analysis
“Playing around with footprint calculators online soon shows that in a country like NZ there is a limit to how much an indiviual can downsize their footprint because we are a developped nation and we all share those things that put us in overshoot (eg food production, energy production). They’re fairly blunt tools, but try it out and you’ll see what I mean.”
There is NO doubt that NZers have a huge carbon foot-print, no matter how you look at it. The methane from cows and so are just part of the problem, NZers love their cars, and they continue to drive 24/7 to everywhere, that is most of the population.
And even the Green Party make a fool of themselves, going on about how valuable our “green image” is, as we need to protect it, for all those tourists that come here. Travel by air is one of the most polluting activities on this planet, creating massive carbon emissions, and every tourist coming here, that is besides of the few thousand coming by cruise ships or so, come here by air travel.
So I would like to know how “clean” and “green” tourism in NZ actually is. I argue it is not that environmentally friendly at all. We should redevelop tourism, and encourage travel by ship rather than by airplane, but hey, who would actually dare take such steps.
Changing this country would be a massive task, as it is geared to high pollution under given circumstances. We need to develop a totally different economy and society, and end the dependence on fossil fuels, on intensive farming and tourism, to become credible, all else is just BS and wannabe action that does not deliver the results that are needed.
It is beyond belief, that a few thousand still believe they will change things in this country by simply joining in a march of just that, a few thousand (Auckland has 1.5 million residents, if not more, what are 3,000 going to change?).
I have despaired long ago about the people living in Aotearoa NZ, and the gullibility of so many, and I come across it every day.
The vast majority do apparently not give a shit about climate change, they rather “enjoy” the warm weather and go to the beach, as the MSM tells us. Sadly I think that is what most do and think.
It is idiotic to go to a protest while millions of NZers continue to drive their cars to everywhere every day, using fossil fuels. They may click a template on an appeal email, for doing something about climate change, but after that they jump into their cars and drive to the corner dairy or next supermarket, buy something in one way packaging, get a plastic bag (or accept what they are given), and drive home again. Some will stop for a take away and buy more one way rubbish, and turf it into the “recycling bin” at home, thinking, oh, I am caring for the environment.
I am sick and tired of all this, to change things much more needs to be done, and it may not all be just “peaceful”, I fear, as the powers that be, they have the money behind them, they fund the parties that we have in government, and they will maintain the status quo, by simply making nothing else but symbolic, empty, useless statements, and few actions, and do stuff all to address the real issues.
We must stop driving individual motor vehicles, across the cities in this country, totally, or all else is just serving lip service and accommodating endless hypocrisy.
Who also can afford their own solar panels, wind generator and so, and what will the use of it mean for the power generators we have? What about getting rid of all one way packaging, and about stopping genetically engineered plants, as I think, and heard via the BBC today, we are heading into a total adventure territory with plant, animal and human cell engineering to take over in the coming years.
I simply have NO faith in humans anymore, as we are sadly a selfish animal that will endless ly make up excuses, do stuff all, and try to keep going as we have, getting rid of natural environments, and replace them with our own “manufactured” crap, which means the end of rain forests, the end of thousands of plant and animal species, and more.
But the urbanites can continue fooling themselves and dream on, loading “green” images on the web, and pretend, they know about how the complex environment and nature work, and that they will have answers to address the huge problems.
I think we are facing mass starvation, and worse to come, as Saudi Arabia, once a wheat exporter, is running out of water, as other countries will run out of limited water supplies, but Len Brown and other idiots want to grow Auckland’s population to 2.5 million, while during El Nino we cannot have enough water as it is. Heads deep in the sand, everywhere, others fooling themselves, get back to basics, try and go bush, and try to live off the land, for a change.
We need a miracle don’t we? A problem solver, someone with exceptional intelligence, a warm heart, and with a progressive manner. Someone who can integrate their genius into the masses in a soothing, influential way, that is inspirational and effective.
Most problems can be solved, root causes must be examined – to solve a problem, you must examine the root, the cause, the beginning. No problem too large can’t be solved, if you use logic.
you haven’t factored in to your formula the issue of powerful interest groups within our political and economic structures, groups which like the status quo just fine, thank you.
Well we all have to succumb to the most powerful, if we ever want to get anywhere (in power).
I am quite positive one woman rules the whole entire universe all on Her own, and I’m quite sure a few don’t like Her, but hey, what can they do?
If She controls fate, She rules. There is nothing anyone can do.
Same applies here.
So your plan is to sit around and do nothing until Superman/Jesus/Xenu shows up and wipes out all the baddies?
Yes that is correct, I’m waiting for ‘my’ man.
do you have any links or evidence for this amazing solution to life, the universe and everything?
No need for evidence on Planet Windup 😉
Yes ropata – exactly! – – – – C R I K E Y.
I went through a phase of looking at Armageddon-type predictions on Youtube a few weeks back. it ended in me throwing up my hands in despair at the number of closed-minded religious maniacs who seem to have found for themselves the perfect excuse to do nothing about CC. Sort of like “Its all gonna end pretty soon anyway, so why bother?”
Its not just limited to wide swathes of the west, like for example the “Bible belt” in the USA. It extends right across pretty much all religions as far as i can make out.
Talk about “The opium of the masses”!
Crikey, CRIKEY and C R I K E Y again!
Religion doesn’t excuse people from their responsibilities as custodians of the Earth, future generations will not thank people like Lisbeth.
I don’t think God likes what we’ve done with His planet
BS the only solution is FIGHT, problem is most warm hearted greenie protestors belive in peaceful protests and embracing the enemy, hoping he will change, which is in my view totally naive.
What a lot of piffle? You are playing with what is a serious problem for all. You must be having a lot of amusement with your pseudo newy agey stuff that you are dishing up here in your insolent and provocative way.
Let’s all sit in a friendly little circle and talk over our problems like intelligent people. It will all come right if we get a nice leader. What anodyne comments Lisbeth. You are quoting slogans, are you for real? Are you a cunning plant like the French put into Greenpeace to subvert them and then destroy a major part of their resources.? The extreme powers and their ‘remora’ enjoy using many different approaches to maintain their red carpet to the golden doors.
I agree CV when these powerful people who control all the world’s resources actually find their assets are finally being threatened by global warming, only then will they try to mitigate the problems which of course, will be then too late. Sort of like some people who eat to excess, drink to excess and do not look after their health, squeal and panic then try to remedy the situation when they are diagnosed with a serious illness. It’s not human nature to be sensible and plan ahead, plus it’s the hip pocket problem with global warming Greed, we don’t want to give up our luxuries and live a simpler life. I sort of feel we have gone too far as well, only because our Government is gutless about hard decision making and poll driven and in love with agriculture and the money/growth mantra side of things. like all other governments world wide and also those countries who sit on energy resources and make big bucks from it.
Trying to save the planet is left to “the little people” who do not have any say. We have solar power, save our rain water for the garden and keep it out of the storm waterdrains, recycle everything we can, double glazing so we need less electricity for heating. Solar powered hot water cylinder etc. These are things we can do, but our leaders in power are not leading by example and are useless. We do not have grandchildren and are thankful for that, the buck stops with us.
Saudi Arabia, once a wheat exporter, is running out of water.
The Saudi vanity project: perhaps not the best example to use. (pdf)
This summary looks at the wider context:
That said, the basic premise holds:
Development and versatility and large cropping of grain apparently is behind the world’s population rise. So lack of grain…..?
“..but Len Brown and other idiots want to grow Auckland’s population to 2.5 million,”
Why is that?
Auckland is a terrible place…pretty, but seriously badly organised.
Shit runs out on to Auckland beaches when it rains.
Traffic is appalling. And don’t blame the schools…its just as bad during the holidays.
The fact that migrants coming from filthy and overpopulated parts of the world are flocking there ought to make Aucklanders sit up and think…
It’s just like home….
We have problems in NZ, and need to lead by example, I believe, but what difference will it make with the following going on?
Countries like India are even expanding fossil fuel use, and China is also still heavily dependent on coal generated energy.
“Well more than half of new coal-based capacity for the 12th Five Year Plan (2012-2017) will deploy these advanced coal technologies. Cheaper, more reliable baseload coal power will help alleviate widespread electricity shortages that have been eroding the Indian economy by some $65 billion a year! Power Minister Goyal has coal playing an “essential role” in his $250 billion plan to provide “Power for All” by 2019. Per the International Energy Agency (IEA), coal is expected to rise from 43% of total energy supply today to 46% in 2020 and 51% in 2035, while maintaining its ~68% hold on electricity.”
And Modi (India’s PM) thinks coal power generators should subsidise solar energy generation, a bizarre step, I think:
Whenever I read and hear news, it always seems that the total obsession with economic growth is the ultimate criteria to decide policy on, and so we continue, to use energy that destroys our planet and us, simply to keep up with growth, for growth’s sake.
Humanity is addicted to growth, largely based on fossil fuels, and a protest by a few well-meaning will not change anything, unless radical, decisive, and in part forceful action is taken, to STOP the destruction of the planet, species and also humanity, and I see nobody have the guts to take firm and decisive action.
I wonder what a peaceful “protest” outside Dachau in Germany in 1940 would have looked like, and worked, to stop inhumane practices there? The time for dreaming and fooling ourselves must be over.
“Some of my best friends are people.”
Effect of Migration on NZ’s Population (to July of each year)
Compare the recent annual migration gains to the annual natural population increase of approx. 30000 for the last 40 years. NZ Annual Births and Deaths
Some may favour increased immigration for economic, cultural and/or humanitarian reasons, but are there any sound biological or environmental reasons? HUMAN New Zealanders are not an endangered species.
If NZers maintain this modest annual natural increase it would take 200 years for the population to hit 10 million. But if migration was to stabilise at +60000 per year, then this ‘goal’ could be achieved in <65 years.
What might be an optimal population for NZ to develop sustainable, resilient, HUMANE communities in a world destabilised (environmentally (CC), socially and economically) by too many (greedy) people? What are the benefits (and costs) of being 10 million-‘strong’ sooner rather than later?
There are no benefits to increasing our population to 10M. Look at the land base you live in and consider how you would feed the people already living there without fossil fuels. That means no artificial fertiliser, no food imported from overseas (with exceptions of smaller amounts by sea), no mass irrigators etc. If you don’t know how to do this, name a landbase and I’ll have a go at explaining how that would work.
I agree, problem is we have a shit government that gets wet dreams the more people come here, as that drives the economy, no matter whether their argument is the same as telling mums to have more babies.
We have also an overly PC idiot society, where saying anything against immigration is instantly interpreted as being “xenophobic” or even “racist”. So we have endless masochists or pro endless growth idiots, that support endless population increase, because it creates that economic mantra growth we are all supposed to adore. The fact that even Auckland cannot ensure water supply for the present population, for years to come and under el nino, that does not seem to matter.
So the agenda of the powers in control goes on, more people, all divided, all competing with each other, few even interested in the Treaty of Waitangi, few if any giving a damn about the country and its history, all just geared for personal and family opportunities and business, that is supposed to ensure our future wellbeing.
As long as the left falls for this BS, you are going to lose big, and prepare for less than 25 percent of the vote dear friends.
I mean it, and I see no improvement in the polls.
“few if any giving a damn about the country and its history, all just geared for personal and family opportunities and business, that is supposed to ensure our future wellbeing.”
…few if any giving a damn about the country and its history, all just geared for personal and family opportunities and business, that is supposed to ensure THEIR future wellbeing.
+100 Mike the Savage One
So we have endless masochists or pro endless growth idiots, that support endless population increase, because it creates that economic mantra growth we are all supposed to adore.
Yeah Mike, but didn’t the left introduce a growth based savings scheme ? If we go through a reasonable period of no growth (depression) all those un-guaranteed investments will disappear.
The left inspired over a million Kiwis to vote for growth.
I wonder how many Kiwi Savers were marching?
Paul Beckwith, discusses COP21 and Paris. Also includes Conversation Between Nafeez Ahmed and Peter Melton (prior at Facebook, is here). Canadian Government roles. 2050 is too late. Stored carbon will dwarf human emissions. Powers that be, acquiescing to business as usual, in not addressing severity of the situation. Extreme weather events. Cold blob.
That sounds promising thinking weka, and we need more of your approach. It’s after all, all we can do.
I think Mike the Savage One made serious points that hit home at me and the behaviour of most of the people I know.
Mike the Savage One has been putting much anguished thought into our lack of change to limit climate change. These are links to his arguments on this post which gathered together cover important points.
Thanks GW. I did read most of Mike’s comments and agree there is some good stuff in there. I don’t have the energy today for all the negatives. I think it’s important for people to be able to talk about how fucked off or despairing they feel and I also think it’s important that we don’t get stuck in that. If I had more energy, I’d post more proactive things in response. There are always things we can do 🙂
I know you are up with that. And you feel it’s important. That’s why I suggested to The Committay that there is always some climate change post up. Either a cureent topic or the recurring one for the latest news, ideas and questions. Don’t know whether that is working its way through the mill or not.
But looking at Mike ..One’s comments I thought he did a good job on getting us all thinking what we can do and that it is important. So glad to help out with that by lining all his links so they gathered together and jostle us to make green moves.
Hamilton Climate Change March….ably covered by Stuff.
Check this out,
RNZ reckoned there were 20,000 people marching in NZ yesterday. I saw elsewhere that there were 6,000 in Chch, well done those people.
This is rubbish re numbers in Auckland – 3000 according to RNZ. God knows where they got that figure from. Stuff had a much more realistic figure of 15,000 for Auckland.
Ok, that means the overall numbers are too low then.
Details live around the world.
Thanks Paul, that’s an inspiring read.
Organisers said thousands took part in 35 New Zealand locations – the smallest being on Raoul Island, where the island’s entire population of seven turned out.
Got to love NZ sometimes.
OAB put up a link for this interesting item on Turkey’s important spice crops ofchilli peppers under the chopper because of climate change.
It also mentions a number of agricultural settlements closed down in Syria because of lack of water.