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The truth will out

Written By: - Date published: 9:07 am, April 5th, 2017 - 93 comments
Categories: accountability, afghanistan, bill english, war - Tags: , ,

Bad news Bill. On RNZ this morning (audio):

Jon Stephenson: Still more to come on Hit & Run

The co-author of Hit & Run, Jon Stephenson, says there is still more to come on the story and the sources they spoke to for the the book are disappointed they will not able to give their evidence in an inquiry.

Meanwhile reaction to the rejection of an inquiry is still rumbling on:

Barry Soper: Difficult to trust Bill English after SAS inquiry denied

Brian Rudman: We all deserve to know the truth about the 2010 SAS raids in Afghanistan

Gordon Campbell on Shifty Bill’s Last Stand

Editorial: Bill English leaves the critical question over an SAS raid hanging

I haven’t seen a single piece in support of English’s decision (presumably Hosking, but I don’t…). The effort to wait out the storm might prove to be a very costly mistake.


93 comments on “The truth will out ”

  1. mac1 1

    Another problem for the NZDF and the PM is Stephenson in the interview mentioned in the post saying that the issue of the beating up and handing over of a captured man by the SAS for eventual torture by Afghani authorities has been ignored by the media so far. It seems this in itself is an illegal act.

  2. roy cartland 2

    If the theory is true that hardly anyone is evil (ie people generally do what they think is right or fair) what could possibly be NZDF’s position?

    • We are lying now but it is necessary to protect our honour so we get the resources to continue the good work we’ve done?
    • If we admit murders, the attacks will cause more insurgency and more reprisal attacks in turn?
    • Soldiers might lose their jobs which would ultimately negate the ‘good’ we can do in the world?
    • …?

    Surely they don’t just think “we might have killed a little girl, but dammit we need to secure that taxpayer $20b for new tech to save MORE lives“; that would be too close to the reprehensible Enola Gay justification that the A-bomb prevented more loss of life than it caused.

  3. ianmac 3

    I gritted my loins and listened to Mike’s Minute yesterday. Full of huge support for Bill’s right decision with a sprinkling of acid at those who advocate for an enquiry. A truly nasty little man!

  4. L0L !

    From the man who stated not so long ago at a business person’s luncheon , …

    ” The concept of a sovereign govt will decline”

    You should also have added ‘responsibility ‘ to that one as well , Bill.

    But right on , Bill – I see your getting in some practice already on that one. Hey – whats some 3 year old girls death in some foreign country to practice your licks on ‘eh?

    Yessiree , Bill,… responsible govts sometimes can just get in the way of a good cover up , cant they… still ,… I guess you thought they have their uses… such as claiming off the taxpayers – as in this :

    ( 2009 having nominated his primary residence being in his Clutha-Southland electorate when his real family home had for many years been in Wellington. That way he could claim substantial taxpayer support to pay for his “out-of-town” Wellington accommodation. )

    Mind you , Bill… you were the guy who once stated that ” we needed a LOW WAGE ECONOMY because that encourages foreign investment”… so now you are all FOR mass immigration and CHEAP LABOUR…

    Sometimes it seems you just cant make up your mind about foreign people, Bill…

  5. Oh, … and just before I go , Bill,… here’s a few more thoughts that seem to be nagging a lot of people…

    ————————————————————-

    Not so long ago when asked on RNZ why Key left , Winston Peters stated it was over issues of ”accountability and administration ” and that ” over the coming weeks and months this will all come out”.

    I believe he just may have had an inkling.

    And if that is the case, I would suspect that English has inherited those same ‘ accountability and administration issues ‘ that Peters alluded to , and, – in emulating his past boss, has adopted the same tactic.

    That of denying , denigrating , and stonewalling.

    However ,… we now have a situation whereby not only are the SAS members who were directly involved supplying information , but also Afghanistan officials who administered the death certificates – AND the parents of the 3 year old that was killed along with other victims family’s.

    Are our SAS members liars? … Do they habitually make up tall story’s just for the sheer delight of providing shock value for the NZ public ?

    Are they just jovial pranksters who simply just wanted to pass the time and have a laugh and waste the valuable time of others?

    Did 3 year old Fatima die or didn’t she?

    And if she did ,… did she magically die by shrapnel all by herself ? – in another village completely unrelated to those raids several kilometers away ???

    Then that must surely put a whole new emphasis on the capability’s of long range flying shrapnel and its lethal effects !!!!

    And was it all for fun and games that the SAS members that say they witnessed what went on also maintained medical assistance was not given to wounded non combatants??

    Are our SAS personnel THAT irresponsible they would quite happily make their organization out to be monsters just for kicks ???

    And when the SAS returned 10 days later to that same village which is supposed to also be another village entirely according to the NZDF , – did those houses also just magically destroy themselves ???

    Has Bill English suddenly become the supreme arbiter – not just in New Zealand but globally ???

    …So much so that bodies such as the Hague can now confidently be deemed to be redundant and then disbanded ,- and that the opinions of legal entities who specialize in international humanitarian concerns and the rules of accepted engagement in warfare are now all null and void???

    We must be incredibly fortunate to be endowed with such an enlightened multi tasking and all knowing persona such as Bill English !!!

    We should be forever grateful that he in his infinite wisdom and humility has elected to stay in this relatively moribund and obscure part of the world instead of rising to the rightful place of the global elite !!!

    But the question still nags at us Bill ,…. and ,… what we would all really , really want to know is , … just WHO REALLY killed Fatima ?

    AND WHY ?

    • greg 5.1

      the natz view themselves as princes of the universe born to rule destined to be the ruler of us all.

  6. LittleBigWater 6

    Irony is that the GCSB’s geospatial man is now dataing to death beneficiaries at MSD under Bill’s new big data initiative.

  7. ianmac 7

    And the Editorial today:
    “…English says he is satisfied, after receiving advice from the Chief of Defence Force Tim Keating, and watching a video of relevant parts of the raid, that New Zealand troops acted lawfully, and with impressive restraint.

    His almost singular reliance on the Defence Force is not reassuring. His claim that Keating is somehow independent of the force that he leads is confounding….”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/91199652/editorial-bill-english-leaves-the-critical-question-over-an-sas-raid-hanging

  8. Anne 8

    What is so heart-breaking is that none of these so-called pillars of society have even read the book. That is abundantly clear. So protected do they imagine themselves to be in their well cocooned and elitist worlds they can no longer relate to reality staring them in the face – and that includes Bill English. It applies to so many facets of our society today.

    The details in the book – coming as they do from the victims and witnesses from both sides of the fence – is so compelling it cannot be ignored. It is clear what the strategy is. Discredit the authors personally and professionally to such an extent, no-one will believe anything they say. A tried and true formula which works both at an individual as well as a collective level.

    This time though with the knowledge there is more evidence to come… it just may not succeed.

    • roy cartland 8.1

      +1.

      There’s none so blind…

    • ianmac 8.2

      Yes Anne!

    • @ ANNE :

      Its a bit of this for Brother Bill and his cobber Keating … so don’t worry , it’ll be coming in thick and fast if anyone of the SAS personnel breaks their silence ,- Bill and co will be too busy keeping their heads down in the trenches to offer any effective resistance.

      Phoebe Snow Shakey ground – YouTube
      Video for phoebe snow standing on shaky ground video▶ 3:29

    • mosa 8.4

      Well said Anne i totally agree.

    • mary_a 8.5

      Good one Anne (8) …

      Discrediting the other side, keeps the bullies in business. It’s what cowardly despots do to survive. They hate the truth. It fills them with dread and fear. But most of all for them, truth is a threat.

      And so it is with the Natz, dragging Hager and Stephenson through the mud. They are scared silly of what has already been revealed and what other evidence will come out.

      Being election year, I hope Nicky and Jon are watching their backs!

  9. Tricldrown 9

    Our Defence Force and govt just do what their masters tell them.
    Trade deals are on the line.
    The US needs Allies in its wars to legitimise its actions.
    Having another enquiry into wat crimes will not be good for the US’s image.
    While they can’t stop enquiries in the US they can use pressure on the NZDF and its five eyesight partners to sweep these war crime’s under the carpet.

  10. Tamati Tautuhi 10

    Just like JK decided not to read Dirty Tricks?

    • Oh they will be reading it alright, – as will David Farrar. Rest assured of that. And the point of that for them is not to find truth but how to counter those truths.

  11. Tamati Tautuhi 11

    By the way what is Bill English’s family history in NZ never heard much about the family early origins in NZ very similar to JK. Who actually are these people puppets for Rothschilds and the Federal Reserve?

    • Regarding the Rothschild’s your talking Jacob Frank ( 1726 – 1791 ) style Zionism, ( Frankish Zionism –
      which is a completely different beast from what we would normally expect ) … ( Frank believed he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ and advocated orgies and satanic style ritualism ) and gained popularity with the Rothschild’s just after the Masonic Congress of Wilhelmsbad ( 1782 ) .

      As for latter day lackeys like Bill English – he is just a stooge for think tanks such as the Mont Pelerin Society ( of Milton Freidman fame ) . English’s predecessors were Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson – both past / present board members of the Mont Pelerin Society.

  12. r0b 12

    Tweets in the post don’t view properly for me in Firefox, I see text only. (In Chrome the full tweet with images is loaded). Anyone else with FF experiencing this?

  13. Sacha 13

    ex-Minister Wyatt Creech says English was right to say no inquiry because our military are impeccable, so there. http://pundit.co.nz/content/why-bill-english-has-done-the-hard-thing-with-hit-run

    • Tamati Tautuhi 13.1

      An International Investigation is the only way forward an internal investigation would be similar to taking an issue to the Police Complaints Authority?

  14. fisiani 14

    The big bad wolf Hager can huff and puff as long as he likes but the public will not be blown over. In summary – In a war zone there are casualties there are mistakes and there are some deaths. This incident has been investigated and the NZ army has been cleared of any wrongdoing. End of story. But keep huffing and puffing if you like.

    • Could of been you or your child that was a ‘casualty / death ‘ in that war zone. So you think you and your child are insignificant. I hope not.

      But the trifling manner in which you blithely write off human life is quite revealing.

      Do ALL RWNJ’s think like you do?

      And if so ,… do we normal well adjusted members of the populace really want your type of ilk in our parliament ?

      Perhaps this is why Bill English has demonstrated such abject cowardice over this issue… he knows very well according to Wayne Mapp that it was “our biggest and most disastrous operation. A complete fiasco”

      • Johan 14.1.1

        To Wild Katipo,
        “But the trifling manner in which you blithely write off human life is quite revealing.”
        Yes indeed, all these RWNJ are primarily concerned with items, while others promote people first.

    • Tamati Tautuhi 14.2

      Fizzy it looks like Bill, JK and the Natzis are going to get fried on this one?

    • @ fisiani

      ” This incident has been investigated and the NZ army has been cleared of any wrongdoing. ”

      There has been NO investigation. Only the NZDF showing Bill English a film.

      Which could just have easily been a travel / tourist promotion one.

      THAT IS NOT AN INVESTIGATION

      THAT IS A COVER UP AND A WHITEWASH.

    • Tricldrown 14.4

      Fisani ,Running interference not very good.
      Bill English has painted himself into a corner now he will be squirming all the way to the elections.

    • Penny Bright 14.5

      Remind us when NZ declared WAR on Afghanistan (or vice – versa)?

      Seemed to have missed that one…

    • Penny Bright 14.6

      Seen this suggestion fisiani?

      CROSS-REFERENCE THE SAS ‘INSURGENT HIT LIST’ WITH THE LAWYERS’ DEAD CIVILIANS LIST!

      Here’s a bit of blinding commonsense.

      Didn’t ‘OUR’ NZ SAS have an (alleged) insurgent ‘hit list’ – with names of those whom they were targeting for Operation Burnham, on 22 August 2010?

      Don’t the above-mentioned lawyers, acting for Afghan villagers have a list of alleged civilians, who were killed during Operation Burnham on 22 August 2010?

      BRAINWAVE!!

      How about ‘cross-referencing’ those two lists?

      If none of those dead villagers match the list of targeted ‘insurgents’ – surely THAT evidence supports an independent inquiry?

      Has the NZDF cross-referenced these two lists?

      Has NZ Prime Minister Bill English?

      If not – why not?

      I’m prepared to offer my services (pro bono) to assist with this exercise.

      It should arguably take no more than ten minutes?

      Penny Bright

    • In summary – In a war zone there are casualties there are mistakes and there are some deaths.

      Is that you, Erich Priebke?

      • inspider 14.7.1

        No I think it is Andrew Little as he said on rnz this week that it appeared that any civilian deaths appeared to be a mistake and nothing leapt out indicating war crimes

        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.7.1.1

          He also said we need a fully independent inquiry to get to the bottom of it. So did Wayne Mapp.

          Neither of them are any more trained investigators than Bill English or Tim Keating. It’s astonishing that the latter two cannot recognise that they have a massive conflict of interest as a result.

          The cover-up always does more damage than the act.

    • Mordecai 14.8

      And they’ve been invited to submit evidence to the NZDF. Bill’s called their bluff. Now we wait to see what they’re made of.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 14.8.1

        What makes you think the evidence hasn’t been in the NZDF’s hands all along? After all, they (at the very least the ‘top brass’) have a long track record of lying about this and other issues where a “front-foot” approach would have served them so much better.

        According to lawyers who (unlike you and I) actually have experience dealing with war crimes cases, Hit and Run is enough on its own to attract the ICC’s attention.

        That’s why this isn’t a party political issue, as much as you’d like it to be.

      • WILD KATIPO 14.8.2

        @ Mordecai

        You seem to be unawares of the requirements of the ICC,… it only takes ONE complainant for that to trigger an investigation and possibly a court trial,… in which case the material in ‘Hit and Run’ then also becomes admissible evidence and documentation.

        This then bypasses the govt and the NZDF as it is then out of their hands , – and if there is an attempt to conduct a sham inquiry to protect their own self interests by that same govt – that also is investigated and taken into account by the ICC – and can trigger further steps towards the international court.

        So as we can clearly see, – the contest can potentially become no longer simply a matter between the authors and this govt or any opposition party’s – it can then move into another entirely different league altogether.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.8.2.1

          It’s so sad that instead of being an opportunity to improve the NZDF’s internal practices, it has instead become a political football.

          John Stephenson has been trying to shine a light on operation Burnham and its aftermath for the best part of a decade.

          Our troops deserve better than shabby incompetent duck-shovers.

    • mary_a 14.9

      @ fisiani (14) … you say …

      “This incident has been investigated and the NZ army has been cleared of any wrongdoing.”

      Can you elaborate more please, to give a clear picture as to when this investigation took place, where it took place and by whom. I seem to have missed it. Thanks.

      • srylands 14.9.1

        The NZDF conducted the investigation. I think that is what he is referring to.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.9.1.1

          What is your understanding of the term “conflict of interest”?

          Is it like, when you construct arguments and reports that support a predetermined outcome?

        • Anne 14.9.1.2

          The NZDF conducted the investigation.

          In relation to the events under discussion, that would be like a felonious person investigating him/herself to determine if they have committed a felony or not.

        • Psycho Milt 14.9.1.3

          The NZDF conducted the investigation. I think that is what he is referring to.

          Yep. The NZDF conducted the investigation, which cleared the NZDF of any wrongdoing. To fisiani, this is possibly the apotheosis of governance.

  15. The Chairman 15

    Has English opened himself up to prosecution?
    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2017/04/the-coverup-continues.html

    • fisiani 15.1

      No!

      • The Chairman 15.1.1

        And your reasoning for that is?

        • Psycho Milt 15.1.1.1

          “Reasoning?” Oh, you optimist…

        • Johan 15.1.1.2

          Fisiani is a typical RWNJ troll. He drops a “bomb”, and never comes back to reply sensibly, since he knows if he does, he’ll get a thrashing;-))))))))))

          • srylands 15.1.1.2.1

            You know there are are few “right wing” folk in New Zealand? And none in the current Government?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1.1.2.1.1

              In fact, in New Zealand, we humans understand that it’s a relative term that is used as a crude model of the political landscape here.

              Why don’t you come down from your sophisticated office and visit sometime?

            • Barfly 15.1.1.2.1.2

              hahhahahhahahahhahha

        • inspider 15.1.1.3

          Because under the Geneva conventions it requires an intent to specifically target civilians absent any military objective. That’s why you haven’t seen tens of thousands of soldiers paraded in front of the courts over the decades for bad aim or targeting the wrong building.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1.1.3.1

            For example, beating a prisoner, or failing to ensure that prisoner’s safety, or failing to discipline individual troops who have beaten a prisoner.

            Or handing a prisoner over to third parties known to torture prisoners.

            Or failing to adequately assess the likelihood of the presence of civilians and taking a “not bovvered” negligent attitude to setting the rules of engagement for an operation.

            Also opening fire at night without warning might be kinda dodgy, I dunno. Best employ some trained impartial investigators.

            • WILD KATIPO 15.1.1.3.1.1

              OR , – failing to assist medically with any civilian casualty’s

              Or , – unnecessary and wanton destruction of property as is alleged occurred 10 days after in a return visit by SA.

              Interesting that is doesn’t just cover destruction of civilian property but that of the enemy if it doesn’t comply with a military objective.

      • WILD KATIPO 15.1.2

        There do exist charges that include ‘attempting to pervert the course of justice ‘ , however…

        • WILD KATIPO 15.1.3.1

          Interesting … the device used is the Article 15 Communication in the International Criminal Court.

          To trigger an investigation made by a complainant.

          And that could use material from the book ‘Hit and Run’.

      • Tamati Tautuhi 15.1.4

        Yes English will be complicit in covering up war crimes, this ain’t a school yard fist fight, these are actually serious allegations Fizzy.

  16. Tamati Tautuhi 16

    English is thick and is walking into this blind, I don’t think he realises how serious this situation is, Key has been bullshitting for 8 years and got away with it on a daily basis.

    • Now then, … wasn’t it John Philip Key who was informed by the top brass and then gave the green light for this operation ??? ,… according to The Chairman’s link on comment 15.1.3 he could be called upon to appear before the International Criminal Court to supply evidence as well…

      Nice link , The Chairman ! – and for those who missed it ..

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201837511/war-crimes-specialist-says-nz-could-face-problems

      Funny how Winston Peters , … when asked by RNZ why he thought Key left so suddenly stated it was because ” of certain administrative and accountability issues which we will all be hearing about over the coming weeks and months ”….

    • SpaceMonkey 16.2

      The difference is that Key is protected by big-money men and safe from any consequences from his bullshit. English isn’t safe as he doesn’t have that same protection.

      • mary_a 16.2.1

        @ Space Monkey (16.2) … if Key is subpoenaed to appear at the international criminal court at The Hague, I doubt any money or special connections in the world will prevent him from doing so.

        I look forward to watching Key, Mataparae, Mapp and English squirm in the dock, as the finger of international law points at them “… j’accuse, j’accuse …”

        • SpaceMonkey 16.2.1.1

          Do not underestimate the powers of big-money and special connections. There’s a lot of water to flow under that particular bridge before we get to the ICC, if it even gets that far. And if it does I am sure they’ll throw some other overboard before they let Key go down.

  17. left_forward 17

    NZ Govt calls for a full investigation!

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1704/S00033/nz-condemns-attack-in-syria.htm

    Oh… the irony!

  18. mosa 18

    When this whole affair is exposed including the cover up from the start by John Key and others it will highlight how naive New Zealander’s are their trust of the state and how a democratically elected government can be captured and dominated by a small group of people hell bent on their own agenda.

    I hope the pressure remains to uncover the truth and that just because this government’s former leader is no longer in authority does not mean he is beyond the reach of a court of law.

  19. Tamati Tautuhi 19

    New Zealanders have had blinkers on since Adam was a cowboy.

  20. Hmmm… sooo… Key goes to work in a charitable organization for a Japanese philanthropist after leaving the PM’s job….

    And apparently the ICC undertakes meticulous investigations as to whether or not a nations govt has conducted an inquiry , – or if it was simply conducting one as a shield to protect itself… and if that’s the case,… the ICC can start proceedings if they believe that has occurred…

    Not a good look so far , Bill.

  21. the pigman 21

    Hey neva mind thoz war crimes how abt this shit pizza tho?

  22. ianmac 22

    Action Station has plans to continue the call for an enquiry.
    actionstation.org.nz/SAS-Inquiry

  23. Ian 23

    Bad luck guys .Hagars Shit and run is disappearing down the dunny.

    • Tamati Tautuhi 23.1

      Back to Whale Scum Ian

    • ianmac 23.2

      You hope Ian. Desperate?

      • Ian 23.2.1

        I am a realist. Hager is finished. Got his facts wrong. Just another loser now.

        • mpledger 23.2.1.1

          Go and see Hager in person at any one of the seminars he gives rather than go to Hosking to get an opinion to put in your brain.

          (I assume it’s Hosking where you got your non-information from – He’s the only one still butchering Hager’s name as badly as you.)

    • Heather Grimwood 23.3

      To Ian at 23 : My immediate thought is that it is so big that you’ll be needing a plumber.

  24. Thinkerr 24

    It all sounds very much like the plot of the film The Ghost Writer, which came out in 2010. Worth a watch, if you haven’t seen it.

  25. Redlion Seratus 25

    Precisely!When I met Hager (some 5 years before The Hollow Men was published). He struck me as a deep thinking, well reasoned, and compassionate man.He’s still doing his best to shine light on the wrong doings of those in power.

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