web analytics

The working poor

Written By: - Date published: 9:20 am, November 8th, 2014 - 183 comments
Categories: benefits, capitalism, class war, poverty - Tags: ,

Wherever you find right-wing governments, you find an erosion of workers’ rights and wages. The situation in England is much the same as here:

Over half of all families in poverty are also in work. That’s why we need a living wage

Earlier this year it was reported that over half the families living in poverty are also in work. When the Living Wage movement started over a decade ago campaigners were often told that it couldn’t be done, but now business leaders report that implementing the Living Wage brings real benefits, increasing productivity and staff retention, while lowering absenteeism.

Also:

Millions of families living in poverty despite being in employment says new study

There are more working families living in poverty in the UK than non-working families for the first time since the birth of the welfare state, according to a new study.

A report by a development charity attributes the figures to a sustained and “unprecedented” fall in living standards that has hit UK households, in which average incomes have fallen by 8% since a peak in 2008. As a result, around 2 million people have an income that would have been considered below the poverty line in 2008.

The Nats’ line on poverty is that beneficiaries need to get in to work. The rise of the working poor both in NZ and internationally, shows what nonsense that excuse is. And yet, they continue to erode the rights of workers.

183 comments on “The working poor”

  1. tricledrown 1

    Poorly paid workers don’t complain and don’t organize and don’t vote!

  2. karol 2

    And yet, the Nats are crowing that average wages are going up. They aren’t talking about comparisons between the highest and lowest paid workers.

    And read the story of Hamilton slum state houses, and the despondent lives of people there. Read it an weep.

    How long have the Nats had to do something about places like this?

    • BM 2.1

      If they’re not happy they can always move out.

      Especially the one who spends $150 a week on smokes.

      • weka 2.1.1

        So you want to take their medication away as well at their jobs, housing and dignity?

        • Tracey 2.1.1.1

          “… They will poke your eyes out to make a buck then laugh at you for being blind. …” fareinheits post yesterday

        • BM 2.1.1.2

          Dignity?.
          The only reason these people stay is because if you move you’ll fall off the housing corp teat and won’t be able to get back on.

          • Tracey 2.1.1.2.1

            citation?

          • karol 2.1.1.2.2

            Dear god. Did you read the article? Such lack of empathy or understanding is mind boggling.

            It’s not like they are living in luxury, or haven’t looked for jobs that would offer hope of a better life.

            It’s hardly a life of happiness, with a sense of security and hope.

            • Tracey 2.1.1.2.2.1

              he doesnt even read articles HE links to!

              he is not a reader he is a collector of lies that make him feel good about his world view. uncritical and untested.

              he is the perfect dupe for our government and its plans. they probablt laugh at how easy people like BM make it for them to screw others, and him… i pity him and hope he never falls on hard times, or loses his job having been unable to afford income insurance.

              • greywarshark

                @ Tracey +1
                Is he useful here as a good example of the awful state of the minds of the right wing?

                and Weka
                It seems to me that BM has worked up a dependence on The Standard as a repository for his oversupply of ire and disagreeable personality.

            • Tracey 2.1.1.2.2.2

              yup, to people like BM the important point of the article is that one person smokes a few ciggies. even IF that flawed logic applied, where is the sympathy for the plight of those who dont smoke.

              MANY kiwis are a redundancy letter away from needing a benefit. being wilfully ignorant of that seems to make them smug and self righteous

              • Lloyd

                And don’t forget, selling cigarettes was the only job of at least one (or was it two?) of the National members of Parliament, so those smokers are doing just what the National party wants them to do. Implying that they are wasting $150 per week on cigarettes is obviously not consistent with attitudes of the elected members of the National Party. Is BM a Maori Party supporter?

            • Once Was Tim 2.1.1.2.2.3

              Don’t even bother @ Karol. Some think its actually a bit of a hoot to denigrate people struggling – like junkies hoping to keep their mates addicted so it makes themselves feel OK. Stereotyping is the bigot’s best friend- – especially for someone as ‘smart and smarmy’ as the Holier than Thou BM.
              We really shouldn’t feed the trolls – they feed on it and get phat (right up until the unforseen shit hits the fan for them – then they usually squeal like stuffed pigs).

              The usual sociopaths that come in here I’ve noticed do sound remarkably similar, and not unlike Jamie Lee Ross on a TV3 ‘expert’ panel. ANd they’re not just thick skinned either – they’re just thick

            • Stephanie Rodgers 2.1.1.2.2.4

              BM can’t be argued with. He’s a mindless regurgitator of WhaleOil-type bigotry with no aim other than disrupting the conversation here.

              There’s a word for it, and it starts with T and rhymes with moll.

          • weka 2.1.1.2.3

            “The only reason these people stay is because if you move you’ll fall off the housing corp teat and won’t be able to get back on.”

            There’s nothing wrong with dependency BM. It’s a normal aspect of humanity. We’re all interdependent. You, I think, suffer from the delusion that the things you have in your life are due solely to your own effort (and perhaps luck, which I’m sure you think you deserve and somehow created, so others who don’t have it can only blame themselves).

            If the state wants to run the economy so there aren’t enough jobs and housing is expensive, then it has some choices. It can either leaev people to their fates and let them drop into the criminal classes, or it can support the people that it otherwise disenfranchises. Which would you prefer?

            Besides, my comment was really that you want to deny poor people medication, which makes you a sick fuck.

          • Puddleglum 2.1.1.2.4

            Hi BM,

            You might want to read this book – Scarcity: Why having too little means so much.

            Of course, it’s hardly news that poverty creates a vicious cycle. Not having money is expensive, thanks to credit card late fees, high interest rates on payday loans, the extra cost of buying in instalments, and so on. But the alarming conclusion of this book is how completely scarcity colonises the mind. Merely asking poorer people to contemplate a hypothetical £1,000 car repair, one study by the authors shows, impairs their performance on intelligence tests as much as missing a night’s sleep – about 13 or 14 IQ points. In another study, Indian sugar cane farmers performed worse pre-harvest, when money was tight, compared to post-harvest.

            Poverty damages everything – and it does so for everyone; even you.

            Poverty is not a consequence of a ‘poverty of character’.

          • Paul 2.1.1.2.5

            You sound like a sociopath.

      • felix 2.1.2

        ” $150 a week on smokes”

        Cite please. I think you made that up.

        • BM 2.1.2.1

          Got it from the comments section.

          Bit high though.

          17.20 a packet x 7 = 120.00 per week

          • Tracey 2.1.2.1.1

            so you read it, saw it was 120 and changed it to 150 = no citation.

            what do roll your owns cost?

          • felix 2.1.2.1.2

            Thought so. You made it up.

            You took the outside estimate and multiplied it by a pack of tailies, then added 25%.

            Probably spends 40 bucks a week on rolls. And so what?

          • Tracey 2.1.2.1.3

            can you explain how stopping smoking would get that person a job? can you point t a source that shows smokers dont get jobs?

            • BM 2.1.2.1.3.1

              Lots of employers don’t like to hire smokers, they stink and aren’t as productive or focused as non-smokers.

              Too busy thinking about that next smoke.

              Giving up smoking would also free up extra coin so she could move to better digs.

              • Tracey

                so, you have no source that smokers cant get jobs?

                now, why did you deliberately change the cost of the ciggarettes and ignore the much lower cost roll your owns?

                citations for the idea that smokers are less productive than non smokers or just another myth you have pulled out of slaters arse where he keeps that stuff?

                do you feel sorry for the ones who dont smoke, or have you another myth to justify your callous attitude to their plight.

                • TheContrarian

                  I admittedly did work in an organisation that didn’t hire smokers due to:

                  A) the smell
                  B) because they nipped out for 5 – 10 mins every hour or so which adds up over the day production wise.

                  Just saying – it happens

                  • Tracey

                    its a smokescreen by bm. 😉

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    That 5-10 minutes every hour is often spent talking to other workers and can lead to greater productivity. It’s a bit like executive team building and brainstorming events, except that it costs a lot less and it sometimes works. I know when I was smoking that it was a huge aid to my productivity.

              • weka

                “Giving up smoking would also free up extra coin so she could move to better digs.”

                Still not fronting up about your desire that poor people should be denied medication.

                The rest of your argument is crap. Someone without their medication is going to be less productive than someone with. Duh.

              • tricle up

                BM One should set you on a luxury deprived diet. Appreciation is a word you probably have not invoked.

                • BM

                  Unlike like most here, I’ve done the “poverty” thing.

                  It’s not fun, but if you’re sensible you won’t starve.

                  • weka

                    Not sure how “poverty” is relevant to this discussion. We’re talking about poverty.

                    • Tracey

                      its better than that weka, BM seems to have experienced controlled and controllable poverty… and having made it out callously mocks any who are still there to make themselves feel superior, and immune.

                      others who have made it out offer a hand to those still in it.

                  • Molly

                    Your comment sounds like those travellers who have “done Europe”.

                    I’m guessing that your visit to “poverty” didn’t do much to broaden your mind or develop your empathy.

                    You fail to understand, that your experience and relief from it is your own story, not applicable to all (if any). Your access to various types of support, whether financial, material, emotional, cultural or social changed the experience you had.

                    For example – a young man of 18 with only two hundred dollars in his bank account, but with use of a vehicle, access to free accommodation, possibility of a job through family and friends – has a completely different prospect from one with $300 and none of those things. And his day to day living, and choices will reflect that.

                    Only by stripping down arguments like yours to basic premises (that ignore reality) are you able to make the claims and solutions to “poverty” that you do.

                  • Tracey

                    ” unlike most here” citation please

                  • Once Was Tim

                    I bet you have @ BM. The turn of phrase and your lingo reminds me of the electrician neighbour of mine (astute, sales-speak-enabled/ideology-well-learned but fick as 2 planks with it in terms of his inability for critical thought) who turned real estate agent.
                    A total cnut and mysogenist to the women that learn very quickly what a drunken asshole he is; the drunken driver whose sense of entitlement made him think he could park anywhere he so chose (Right up until he put the firm’s van over a bank and my daughter had to ‘rescue him’ [btw she just about vomitted]; all about you; once was a tradie but now I’m better than that (right up until the time it’s ‘cashup’ – when you come to realise that in life’s dealings – you’ve actually achieved SFA.
                    JAWO! (Just another Whale Oil) Basically a life form with enough intelligence to waddle and spout platitudes and learned sales-speak – but totally full of shit.
                    My last – especially since I suggested to Karol not to bother engaging (above).

                    • Paul

                      JAWO
                      A useful way to deal with the tro**s who clutter this site.

                    • Once Was Tim

                      @ Paul … they’re the main reason I only read and comment here intermittently. But of course I have no better right than they do – it’s just that they’re frusrating – which is of course their intent.

                    • weka

                      great appraisal there Tim!

                    • BM

                      I’m glad I give you purpose Tim.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      It’s the other way ’round. It’s been said before, and it bears repeating: when we speak of others we project our shadows onto them.

                    • Once Was Tim

                      “I’m glad I give you purpose Tim”

                      Conceited as fuck with it see BM. Still, notions of self-importance, the Jamie-Lee Ross Harcourts Real Estate suit and grooming, the shallowness, the parrot-fashion learned lingo, and an oversized ego is probably all you’ve got going. Come to think of it, that’s quite a lot in a Natzi’s world – till it all turns to shit of course.

              • Just another respect in which our society has gone completely over the top about smoking.

                Yes, it’s not very good for you, especially if you do it for a long time, but some perspective would be nice.

            • KJT 2.1.2.1.3.2

              Just maybe, being allowed security, hope and dignity in their lives , may take away their need to use drugs, gamble, or drink.

              The real problem with drug dealers, including the beer barons, pokies and casino’s is they make huge money out of exploiting the human need, which we all have, to have some hopefulness in our lives. Even if it is the temporary high from a ciggie.

          • weka 2.1.2.1.4

            Rollies would be cheaper than that though.

            edit, felix’s estimate of the cost of rollies

            The working poor

            • Tracey 2.1.2.1.4.1

              STOP IT? facts have been known to explode some right wingers heads… oh… hang on…

              roll your owns, around $.43 each

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10699354

              so about $65 each week.

              now, gangs, broken down homes, unaffordable medication, unable to find jobs…

              perhaps david seymour can start his career turning this street into epsom by making the local school high decile or even private and fully funded, average hh income over $100k, judder bars every 100m, heat pumps, insulation, two cars each… be a good way to test his “green and pleasant land” theory ( note he didnt acknowledge his plagarism from Jerusalem), but breach of copyright prolly doesnt apply in epsom. it doesnt in the national party.

      • felix 2.1.3

        “If they’re not happy they can always move out.”

        Why don’t all these so-called “poor” people get off their lazy arses and get a PR contract with the National Party?

        • Tracey 2.1.3.1

          or start a blog offering to spread lies and hatred for a price… sometimes for free cos callous is fun.

      • GregJ 2.1.4

        I read this a while ago. A piece by one of the working poor in the US – someone who works 2 jobs, is trying to study to improve themselves and their prospects, and runs a household. And probably someone who people like BM still would despise. Read it and get some insight into the despair of poverty and try to develop a little bit of compassion.

        “I smoke. It’s expensive. It’s also the best option. You see, I am always, always exhausted. It’s a stimulant. When I am too tired to walk one more step, I can smoke and go for another hour. When I am enraged and beaten down and incapable of accomplishing one more thing, I can smoke and I feel a little better, just for a minute. It is the only relaxation I am allowed. It is not a good decision, but it is the only one that I have access to. It is the only thing I have found that keeps me from collapsing or exploding.”

      • Foreign waka 2.1.5

        Decades ago, in an other country people were saying that they are so poor because a certain group of people is taking all the money and benefits that come with it from them. Little did they know that the scene was set by others so that some envy fest would ignite what would become a civil unrest and later an out and out war. You need to remember that war is actually the biggest earner in the market by a enormous margin. The latest stats show that the only industry that has shown any return in the US is the one that supplies the war machinery. But I digress. The people were so enraged that they actually shot others that were once their neighbors and tortured others who they might have talked to in a shop only some months ago.
        We all need to think about what and who we want to be if we want to have a functioning community that is there for all, especially the vulnerable. No use of hardening lines if the end is many victims just to drive a point home.
        In regards to smoking, it suppresses the hunger and eases tension. Did you know that solders were given cigarettes in the WW for that reason? It is a very effective drug to keep a lid on what might become to a situation you might not like.

    • Tracey 2.2

      they like averages more than median for obvious reasons. myth speading right wingers to follow with regurgitated, unsubstantiated lies.

    • The Bermuda Triangle… along with Poet’s Corner, one of the worst areas in NZ let alone Hamilton.

  3. weka 3

    “Since those who hold special privileges in society are naturally inclined to regard their privileges as their rights and to be unmindful of the effects of inequality upon the under-privileged, they will have a natural complacence towards injustice.”

    https://twitter.com/ebruenig/status/530778393714098176

    However, people that seek out political discussion and still maintain complacence towards injustice despite the evidence, are willfully ignorant/prejudiced. They should be classed as active perpetrators of oppression i.e. evil.

    • Tracey 3.1

      yup. lack of knowledge or education is only an excuse until you know better. people bringing up kids in ganglands doesnt bode well for the adult lives of those children. being ill from the age of five is an appalling indictment on our so called paradise.

      what a mean world we now live in, with too many people ready with myths to try and justify their callousness

      • Foreign waka 3.1.1

        How would you brake the cycle without inciting violence? Because that is what is required.

        • Tracey 3.1.1.1

          make poverty politically sexy

          • Foreign waka 3.1.1.1.1

            ???? there is nothing sexy about poverty. To make it a political football once more by using the issue to give the emperor new clothes will not help the affected either. There are ways of dealing with breaking the cycle but it would be profoundly unpopular. So what is a palatable solution?

  4. Rawsharkosaurus 4

    The Nats’ line on poverty is that beneficiaries need to get in to work. The rise of the working poor both in NZ and internationally, shows what nonsense that excuse is.

    Sounds like we now have a suspect for this crime.

  5. goodsweat 5

    I’m all for more Kiwis being in a position to lead broader and fuller lives. A week in Fiji should be within reach of all families. I feel that just jacking up wages will merely induce inflation and any purchasing improvement extinguished.

    A country needs to operate like a business except of course the income comes from tax payers. There are only 3 ways to make a business more profitable or in the case of a country, make all of the citizens better off. Get more customers (immigration). Get more from the customers you’ve got (raise taxes) or cut overheads (cut govt jobs/services).

    Introducing a Living Wage is show business. Any benefit will just be gobbled up in inflation. The increased cost to deliver the can of spaghetti and to polish the supermarket floor will be transferred to the retail price can of spaghetti.

    As with ‘Child Poverty’ the term ‘Living wage’ is another deceptive oxymoron. Four year olds don’t get jobs and if I wasn’t getting a living wage I’d be dead.

    When considering the 3 ways that could make us all better off I think the best plan is the constructive one. As ships laden with Radiata logs head off to China – I think a better shake for us all, a holiday in Fiji for us all, lies in us raising our productivity. eg: Rather than logs I believe the ship hold should be full of Ikea furniture parts.

    With this scenario, jobs become more plentiful and we wouldn’t need to legislate for higher wages. As in other countries that have raised productivity, higher incomes come naturally.

    Lets stop griping about how to slice up the same pie and put our energy into baking a bigger one.

    • GregJ 5.1

      A country needs to operate like a business

      Actually a country shouldn’t be run like a business – that’s just typical neo-liberal Friedmanite BS – start by reading Paul Krugman’s piece (Nobel winning Economist) titled “A country is not a company”.

      • Tracey 5.1.1

        yes, the death of a social contract and looking after our neighbours and the vulnerable.

      • goodsweat 5.1.2

        Yes of course there are fundamental differences. For my purpose of pointing out the futility of introducing a living wage I still feel it’s a comparison that works on that level. We can’t make everyone better off with this tool. It’s a brief flash in the pan feelgood illusion.

        Do you agree that any increase in wages will be gobbled up by inflation? Possibly leave us worse off. Those currently on $20 an hour will be looking for $24.

        • joe90 5.1.2.1

          Those currently on $20 an hour will be looking for $24.

          Yeah, god forbid those currently on $20 an hour seek to better their own situation, cheeky bastards don’t know how lucky they are!.

          //

          • goodsweat 5.1.2.1.1

            Joe, I think you are missing the point I am making. Yes, we all worthy of an improved standard of living, I agree.

            I am trying to point out what I feel is the futility of using a mandatory wage increase to achieve this.

        • Lloyd 5.1.2.2

          As long as the top salaries are reduced in a balanced manner at the same time as the living wage is introduced there will be absolutely no change in the profitability of any company and therefore there shouldn’t be any wage inflation.

          If the companies involved don’t balance their books, then the government needs to tax the higher income levels at a higher rate. Outcome – no inflation.

          The futile thing is to let economic inequality continue. Neoliberal capitalism results in fewer and fewer owning more and more of the economy. At a certain point the economy collapses because no-one who needs things can afford them and anyone with assets can’t sell them. The only long-term stable economy must have methods in it to get capital back to the poorest members of the community.

      • GregJ 5.1.3

        Oh and NZ’s productivity has increased perfectly well – the problem is that wages haven’t kept up with the productivity gains – rather the profits have increased at the expense of those wages. If real wages had started the same in 1989 and then risen as fast as productivity, the average wage in March 2013 would have been $35.91 and the minimum wage would be about $25.00/hour.

        Again do some more reading – start here with the CTUs “New Zealand’s Low Wage Economy”.

    • weka 5.2

      jeeze, where to start?

      Living wage refers to people being able to have a life, as opposed to just surviving. Defining life as not being dead means that someone starving in an African refugee camp has a life until they’re actually dead. Daft.

      We have a big enough pie. While I agree that we could be much smarter with what we produce, increasing the pie without adjusting how the pie gets cut up just gives a bigger slice to the people who already have enough or more than enough. Besides, we can’t increase the pie without locking ourselves into catastrophic global warming. We should be aiming for a steady state economy, which means radically rethinking what fairness is.

    • Tracey 5.3

      could you post some citations for your assertions?

      do you measure productivity through gdp?

      ANZ has made a record profit four years in a row. thats growing the pie right? yet they wont give a reasonable wage increase to lowest level workers. Can you explain this to me because it seems everyone grew the pie… directors fees went up, ceo pay went up, dividends went up… but lowest paid got offered about 1.5%.

      thanks in advance.

    • Tracey 5.4

      theres more ways to be dead than no longer breathing. for example if no longer having a functioning brain meant you were dead…

      • goodsweat 5.4.1

        Of course we have a responsibility towards the vulnerable, I wish we could direct more funding their way, particularly their care givers, we all do. I think the best way to achieve that is with smart green ways of getting more $ into the NZ tin.

        • Paul 5.4.1.1

          What about stop paying the bosses such exorbitant rates and directing that to the workers who actually do the tasks?
          Of what about stopping the heft of our country so profits stay onshore?

        • Tracey 5.4.1.2

          could you post some citations for your assertions?

          do you measure productivity through gdp?

          ANZ has made a record profit four years in a row. thats growing the pie right? yet they wont give a reasonable wage increase to lowest level workers. Can you explain this to me because it seems everyone grew the pie… directors fees went up, ceo pay went up, dividends went up… but lowest paid got offered about 1.5%.

          thanks in advance.

          • alwyn 5.4.1.2.1

            You have posted this comment 3 times so far.
            Can I ask, just once, that you post some citations for your assertions.
            I particular what evidence do you have to back up your claim that
            ” but lowest paid got offered about 1.5%.”.
            I haven’t even seen the union claiming that it was that low.

            • Tracey 5.4.1.2.1.1

              do you understand the meaning of almost? I notice you havent backed my call for citations from goodsweat.

              • Tracey

                “ANZ is proposing contracts where workers would only know month by month which days, start and finish times they will be working,” said FIRST Union Retail & Finance Secretary Maxine Gay.

                “Bank staff have lives outside of their job.  They have childcare requirements, commitments to community, faith and sports groups.  Many bank workers undertake tertiary study with set lecture times.  Chopping and changing hours may suit ANZ, but it does not work for workers.”

                Bank workers don’t take strike action lightly, but the bank’s proposals had prompted a strong reaction from staff, Maxine Gay said.

                “ANZ workers want jobs that they can plan their lives around, and they want a pay offer that respects their hard work that delivers such big profits, $1.37 billion last year, for the bank.”

                “ANZ needs to show some respect and decency towards its workers by offering a pay increase that values the contribution they make and that is significantly greater than the current 2% to 3% offer, and it needs to pull back on its proposal to casualise hours of work.” first union

                bank says it has offered 2.75 to 3%

                “… Contact centre and back office workers employed prior to September 2010 are being offered a 2% plus 2% wage increase over two years.  For everyone else ANZ is offering 3% and 2.75%.   Just five months agoWestpac workers achieved a 3.4% per year increase for two years,” Gay said… ”

                so…. those being offered 2% arent far off my guess from memory of almost 1.5%

                now… I posted that within minutes of seeing your post requesting. sweaty has simply said that he wont post sources cos theres no point…

                I look forward to you demanding he back up his assertions but I wont hold my breath.

        • Lloyd 5.4.1.3

          Actually it is the vulnerable that will get the world economy out of recession. If the Neoliberals running most western economies (and especially the English speaking economies) were replaced with left-wing governments with strong minimum wage and large benefit increases along with progressive taxes on all income and on capital, then the money would move and the economies of the world would boom. Giving the poor a hand-up and taxing the rich will make everyone (even the really rich) better off in the long run. Don’t begrudge a hand-out to the poor, it will make us all wealthy. Don’t get upset at high taxes on high incomes. Those taxes will benefit everyone.
          The poor have a responsibility – it is to spend their money quickly and get the cash registers ringing. If the minister of finance checked how much money the poorest 5000 New Zealanders spent every week and worked on steadily increasing that amount he would be far more effective than anything he has done for years.
          New Zealand has plenty of money for the vulnerable. The reason they don’t get it is the rich divert it into their bank accounts.

    • BassGuy 5.5

      About 2 years ago, my employer made more than $8 million.

      The only people who have had pay increases at work are the ones on minimum wage.

      You talk about making the pie larger, yet precisely the same will continue to happen:

      the wealthy will take their chunk plus a bit more – after all, they deserve it for working so hard at being wealth creators – and the tiny bits that are left over will go to the rest of us.

      Which reminds me, someone recently posted a chart showing that efficiencies have increased by 48% while pay has risen only 18%. That is making the pie larger, yet the benefits went directly to the top while the rest of us missed out on the gains for our hard work.

      We’ve been hearing your rhetoric for years now – George W. Bush talked about “making the pie higher.” Look where that’s got everyone.

      The only people who gain from this ideological rubbish are the wealthy, as they get to take more from the people who do the actual work.

      • goodsweat 5.5.1

        If your employer lost 8 million dollars how much money would the employees contribute towards his loss?

        He took the risk, the success or failure is his.

        If you feel that you bring more value to his company than you are being compensated for I think you should draw this to his attention and if a reasonable man I would hope act accordingly. Most do.

        The trick is having a good argument supported by facts re: The value you bring.

        • RedLogixFormes 5.5.1.1

          Back in the 80’s I worked for a mid-sized corporate (around 600 employees in many countries) that did a 20% profit share.

          By far the best incentive scheme I’ve ever encountered.

          • weka 5.5.1.1.1

            Is that 20% of profits shared amongst all employees equally?

            • RedLogixFormes 5.5.1.1.1.1

              Yes. However it excluded all senior execs on the grounds that they ‘were being paid enough already’.

          • goodsweat 5.5.1.1.2

            In many cases the advantages of being known in an industry as the company that pays it’s people well can increase profitability, a higher wage bill countered by a cohesive hardworking team of the best money can buy.

            Far better to be known as the company that pays great rather than lousy wages.

        • Paul 5.5.1.2

          No risk for the banks and insurance companies
          Governments bail them out.

        • Tracey 5.5.1.3

          could you post some citations for your assertions?

          do you measure productivity through gdp?

          ANZ has made a record profit four years in a row. thats growing the pie right? yet they wont give a reasonable wage increase to lowest level workers. Can you explain this to me because it seems everyone grew the pie… directors fees went up, ceo pay went up, dividends went up… but lowest paid got offered about 1.5%.

          thanks in advance.

        • Molly 5.5.1.4

          “He took the risk, the success or failure is his”

          No. The success or failure in a company of that size, depends in part on his decisions, but also in the ability of those who work for that company to challenge and/or implement those decisions efficiently and effectively.

          If your business plan requires staff to work under a living wage rate – then your business acumen has already failed. You should not require the enforced “donation” of time and effort from the working poor so that you can be successful.

        • The Other Mike 5.5.1.5

          Your reply is wrong on many levels.

          “how much money would the employees contribute towards his loss?” – OK, turn this around. How much did the employees contribute to the PROFIT? Presumably Mr or Ms Boss-man can’t complete the project WITHOUT THE STAFF.

          The staff are also at risk – of losing their jobs. In a risky venture I would say the staff will work extra hard to make it succeed. Which these people presumably did.

          Sure, obviously a great idea/project, whatever, but these bosses don’t work in a vacuum. Like society, succeeding is a co-operative effort – like this project.

          Why are you so determined that credit, and reward, should only come back to you?

          Oh, I forgot – you got yours and bugger anyone else.

        • Draco T Bastard 5.5.1.6

          He took the risk, the success or failure is his.

          No he didn’t. If that business fails the workers tend to lose more than the shareholders and administrators.

          BTW, BassGuy said that his employer made more then $8m dollars.

        • Tracey 5.5.1.7

          they grew the pie. you said growing the pie raises wages… now you are saying grow the pie….and advise the employer of the error of their ways

          why would having facts help, the employer might just google and find something that favours them to knock it back. see a post below for bow this operates

      • KJT 5.5.2

        “they deserve it for working so hard at being wealth creators”.

        Humour?

        Less than 3% of the wealthy earned it by entrepreneurship or starting a new business. I have seen an article re4cently that shows this has now decreased to 1% in the USA and UK.

        The overwhelming majority of the wealthy are living on unearned money, either inherited, or because they bought formerly State run businesses, rental assets such as houses, or they stole it!

    • Foreign waka 5.6

      You forgot that the difference between a company and to run a country is the fact that the shareholders have quite different objectives. In the case of a business it is to make more money for 1 owner, in the case of a country it is to maintain a society for all and that includes “assets” that do not return on investments, i.e. babies and elderly. To compare a company to a country is just plain dishonest on part of people who just want a share of those who distribute in the belief that their children will benefit. A person like that could be compared to a flatmate being the one emptying the fridge all the time and disappearing when the pertinent questions of replacement are asked.

    • Andrea 5.7

      I wonder if the sweat shop garment makers in Bangladesh have noticed any change for the better after slogging for 12+hr days and pouring out garments to fill orders.

      And – why would we be making IKEA products? Have we no talent of our own?

      Further – why would they be made here and have to cross the sea-miles to reach the nearest large market? There’s a cogent reason why NZ manufacturers off-shore the construction work to a well-populated continent – the cost of transport to reach a big-enough market to get a return on investment from the product/s is so much lower.

      Can’t find the FAQ about the citation – however, I do remember reading that NZ productivity has risen – just – not the matching rewards.

      Being a worker in NZ is like being a North Korean worker in Qatar – you’ll be lucky if you see even 10% of the remuneration that is rightfully yours. So much for ‘productivity’.

    • KJT 5.8

      The “growing the pie” fantasy.

      What everyone has been trying to tell you is that we have been growing the fucking pie, by 83%, while wages have gone from over 65% of the economy to less than 45%.

      And we are still waiting for “trickle down” to work.
      The other fantasy, that if you let the rich have more money they will grow the economy.

      The fact is that “growing the pie” means that asset strippers, speculators and overseas owners stole the pie, leaving the crumbs for those who worked to grow it.

      Trickle down means the same people piss on us while they accumulate all our money.

      And, of course the other right wing fantasy statement. “You won’t stop people being poor by making sure they have enough income”.
      Well, having more money sure works to keep my family from being poor.

      Unlike the right wings fantasy world.
      http://kjt-kt.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/the-magical-world-of-new-zealands-neo.html
      “It has been obvious that some people live in a different world than the rest of us”.

      • goodsweat 5.8.1

        Yes, they are startling statistics. I’ll stick with my gut feel and school of hard knocks guidance thanks. You point to an 83% increase in productivity and a wage increase that lags behind. Could the increase be due to investment in technology and the appointment of contractors? I only employ contractors in my small business now. I can’t afford employees.

        This business I speak of was formed and nourished on the back of what I feel was making the most of the trickle down theory. It worked for me. I think those that feel betrayed by the theory sat on their couches, extended a cupped hand and waited for the pennies to drop in. The trickle must be pursued and for the first while it’s nothing but damn hard work.

        We agree re: our obsession with investing in housing KJT. Having our nation’s wealth and capital tied up in non-productive houses is not ideal. Those $ could be working rather than lounging.

        Again, I’ve always had nothing but wins with the trickle down theory KJT. Maybe I don’t understand the term properly. As I understand it: If I’m flatting across the road from a stadium, when the punters head home after the game, me setting up a hot dog stand at the end of my drive is a basic example of me benefiting from a trickle. Exploiting an opportunity, yeah?

        Poor families aren’t poor because they haven’t got any money. They’re poor because they’re not very good at managing money. With money management one of the key considerations is getting it. The next most important consideration, disposing of it.

        • Draco T Bastard 5.8.1.1

          I’ll stick with my gut feel and school of hard knocks guidance thanks.

          Good to know that you’re willing to stick to your delusion. Personally, I prefer facts.

          You point to an 83% increase in productivity and a wage increase that lags behind.

          Not only lagging behind but going backwards.

          Could the increase be due to investment in technology and the appointment of contractors? I only employ contractors in my small business now. I can’t afford employees.

          They should cost the same. After all, the contractor doesn’t magically live on less food and housing just because they’re a contractor.

          I have a number of contractors in my family and what I’ve seen from them is businesses, such as yours, laying the expenses of running the business upon them while boosting their own profit.

          Those $ could be working rather than lounging.

          $$$ don’t work and never have done. It’s the people who work but we’ve been trained to think that if we have money we deserve more of it. In other words, our entire socio-economic system is designed to produce bludgers – otherwise known as the rich.

          They’re poor because they’re not very good at managing money.

          Nope. They’re poor because they don’t have any money and thus can’t access their fair share of their resources. This is known as the market system where a lot of people are priced out of being able to live.

          • goodsweat 5.8.1.1.1

            What you consider to be my delusions are delivering me the life I wish to lead. I’m only here for 80 years or so, I’m going to do what I can to have fun, surround myself with love and do what I can to help somebody else when I can…Why start your response with your belief that I’m delusionary and then go on to respond to every point I make?

            You need a big healthy helping of grandchild’s laughter.

            • Tracey 5.8.1.1.1.1

              because just about everything you have written has been seriously debunked, that you continue to believe it doesnt make you right. people here are trying to relieve you of some of the myths you tell yourself and others.

              • goodsweat

                Hi Tracey, yes, there are 1000’s of pages on the internet to support your opinion and mine.

                In spite of the immense mountains of proof, I have always found that the best person to address any money shortage I might be suffering from is me. In my NZ, we are surrounded by opportunity and abundance.

                Imagine being an Indian kid with big dreams, most never have a chance to go to a school. We are so lucky here.

                • Tracey

                  imagine if you

                  a. read my link
                  b. posted some of the research you suggests supports your notion that people who are poor dont manage money well.

                  imagine being someone blessed with education but squandering it because it threatens their position? your total lack of desire/ability to have your belief system challenged is an insult to the indian child whose lack you glibly use to advance your unfounded belief system you are the antithesis of the humble man you claim to be. have another hot dog sweaty.

                  • goodsweat

                    Tracey, I’m saddened that you feel the need to belittle me and call me names, I quite like you.

                    I read your link. It’s a perfect illustration of exactly what I’m talking about. The internet has become a clash of juxtaposed irrefutable truths. Your link are the sparks coming off an axe as the one eyed man with an axe to grind, grinds his axe.

                    For me to dig up your link’s juxtaposed counter claim is an insult to the intelligence of all but the most ardent of one-eyed Googlers and there is no saving them. Google Pong Addicts…back n forth, back n forth

                    ‘I saw it on the internet so it has to be true.’ My feeling is that the internet has become such a melting pot of ideas and opinions that the reverse is fast becoming true. ‘I saw it on the internet so it has to be a fib.’

                    [lprent: Read the policy. We foster “robust debate” and (with a few exceptions) I couldn’t give a pigs arse what other people call you – provided they have a point to go with any abuse. We prefer (ie you start taking a risk of getting moderator attention) that points go with links when they are expressed as facts rather than opinions.

                    If you want to disagree, then point to the problem with the facts or the link. Don’t whine like a smacked poodle on topics. It gets boring listening to blatant stupidity and often results in ridiculously stupid flamewars that I dislike reading (with the obvious risk factors laid out in the policy).

                    There are a lot of reasonably authoritative sources on the net. My guess is that you are either so wet behind the ears that you are incapable of distinguishing between good and bad sources, or this is a dumbarse avoidance tactic. ]

                    • Tracey

                      your feelings have proven to be such an erroneous compass it is hard to take them seriously.

                      by all means believe in your nz version of the american dream but better hope you dont wake up from your dream before you die.

                      you attempts to intellectualise your objections to any research posted to refute your beliefs doesnt hide the reality of your position. it is without foundation, seemingly incapable of proof.

                      enjoy your reality and dont waste time liking or not liking people on the internet sweaty, its the words that matter.

                      enjoying your hot dogs?

                    • goodsweat

                      Hey Trace, the post above, I can’t see any ‘Reply’ button on it. Weird, are you a mod here? Please don’t be scared of me, I offer you no threat.

                      [lprent: The reply button disappears when the level of indent on comments reaches 10. You thought that it was infinite?

                      And tracy isn’t a mod. ]

                • felix

                  “there are 1000’s of pages on the internet to support your opinion and mine.”

                  Says you. All your assertions in this thread have been shown, by logic and reason, and by evidence presented, to be false.

                  Weirdly you haven’t been able to do the same regarding the assertions of others.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Hi Tracey, yes, there are 1000’s of pages on the internet to support your opinion and mine.

                  But what we need are facts and there are no facts that support your beliefs. There are facts that support the Left.

                  Imagine being an Indian kid with big dreams, most never have a chance to go to a school. We are so lucky here.

                  And that is a logical fallacy. Just because somewhere else is worse off doesn’t mean that we have the best possible solution. And considering that the number in poverty in NZ has been increasing over the last thirty years would indicate that we have worst possible policies.

        • Tracey 5.8.1.2

          some people have been doing research just for you.

          We tend to think that simply giving people money makes them lazy. Yet a wealth of scientific research proves the contrary: free money helps. It is time for a radical reform of the welfare state…

          https://decorrespondent.nl/541/Why-we-should-give-free-money-to-everyone/20798745-cb9fbb39

  6. goodsweat 6

    Banks, yep, they grind my gears too. They produce nothing and turn astronomical profits only to ship them offshore. They contribute little and skim billions off this very thing I’m talking about: Productivity. No argument here re: banks…bleeders.

    • Tracey 6.1

      so the banks are an example of where no matter how productive the lower paid are, they wont benefit from the bigger pie theory from increased production you suggest for them to increase their wages?

      • goodsweat 6.1.1

        Productivity increases force wage increases for all the right reasons. I don’t think Labour’s plan to build so many houses was achievable, it robbed a good idea of credibility.

        Even if they got to 30% of their aspiration, the increased productivity would of had many spin off benefits. The demand for good tradies would of gone through the roof. Their naturallu induced increase in remuneration would pull the whole sector up, good hammer hands would cost $4 more an hour than a year earlier. A forward looking building Co would see a strong argument for training new carpenters.

        This is growing wages organically, not with a rubber stamp.

        • Tracey 6.1.1.1

          sorry? houses? you started talking about the pie to improve low wages. i gave you an example of a huge growth in pie not increasing low wages and you tangent off on lp housing policy?

          • Paul 6.1.1.1.1

            The tr*** isn’t debating. He/she is just diverting …paid or otherwise

            • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.1.1.1

              It’s also possible that debate is a foreign country to Goodsweat, who clearly doesn’t realise how revealing their failure to address Tracey’s argument is.

        • KJT 6.1.1.2

          “Not achievable”.

          We managed to build proportionately more houses in the 50’s, when we were supposedly much poorer.

          I commend your aims, but you need to do more research.

          Immigration keeps house prices high and wages low, for one. The economic boom promised for allowing an unsustainable level of immigration, never happened.

        • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.3

          Productivity increases force wage increases for all the right reasons.

          No it doesn’t and never has. What productivity increases do in the present system is lower wages as less people are needed to do the same jobs. What productivity is supposed to do is to free people up to do different jobs and thus developing our economy but that doesn’t happen either.

          What happens is that all the gains from increased productivity goes to higher profits for the bludging shareholders and directors.

  7. Paul 7

    Nigel Latta.
    The New Haves and Have nots.
    Talaria and Sio.
    Their story shames New Zealand.

    Next time one of those tr**** gibbers on about how great NZ is, point to their story and this link.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/nigel-latta/s1-ep4-video-6025283

    • goodsweat 7.1

      Of all the countries in the world which ones do you think Talario and Sio would be better off in? It seems NZ would be at the bottom of any list you compiled. I quite like it here.

      • Tracey 7.1.1

        the operative word here is “I”

        NZ is not for everyone as it is for you…

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10716330/The-slums-of-Jebson-Pl

        shall we wait til children are rummaging in rubbish dumps before we decide we migt have a problem.

        every time a rise in the minimum wage is suggested, chicken littles emerge to tell us how businesses will go bust and the economy will fail. it doesnt. as posted here many times there is little or no evidence that increasing minimum wage results in job losses. if no one has the links handy i can find tgem when i come back.

        meantime can you post some sources to back your productivity and pie theory.

        • goodsweat 7.1.1.1

          Yes of course we can do things better, that should always be the case. What country do you think you would be better off in?

          I think we live in a beautiful part of the world under not perfect but pretty good circumstances. I could live in any other country, I have lived in a few. Granted, it’s home, but I feel I chose the best one. When I look at all those about me, I think they did too.

          Re: Sources to back up my opinion. I’m sure I could find them if I could be bothered looking. I suspect you’d refuse to recognise the source. I’d probably do the same with any sources you may present. That’s the thing about this Information Super Highway, you can find an official report to support any view about any thing.

          So, these are merely my opinions Tracey, agree, disagree, that’s cool. Quality debate is how we make a pretty good place even better for every single last one of us.

          • Paul 7.1.1.1.1

            It’s just you’re not providing quality debate.
            You are simply tr***ing.

            • goodsweat 7.1.1.1.1.1

              I’m sorry you feel that way Paul. It is not my intention.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Refusing to provide citations is the hallmark of a tr*ll. Hi, I’m the third Billy Goat Gruff.

                You won’t find anything peer-reviewed to support your position, because your position is based on false beliefs. I can say this with confidence, since the last tr*ll who turned up here parroting the same crap, and the tr*ll before that, and the tr*ll before that, they were just as bereft of facts as you are.

                • goodsweat

                  Will my presenting you with reports written by a university educated academic change your way of thinking? Of course not. Looking for it is a waste of my time.

                  If you were doing the same thing for me the first thing I’d do is Google for all the critics that sledge your chap’s findings. Such is the internet. You can find a genuine bona fide report that proves anything. Spins the spin of choice. It’s become the natural home of the paradox.

                  Outside of raw untainted stats I’ve given up on placing weight in most of it and run on gut feel and experience. It is from that position that I comment. It’s the way I feel. I invite your debate but I’m not able to offer much in the way of evidence of how I feel other than identify it as the view supported by my gut feel and past experiences.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Perhaps if you drop the notion that I’m relying on one “chap”‘s opinion the way you are we’ll get somewhere. Are these reports peer-reviewed? If not why not?

                    Your assertion that the living wage is inflationary, for example, sits uneasily with your comments about offering high wages being a path to success.

                    And then there are the parrots: is it a coincidence that they know so many of your lines?

                  • KJT

                    Raw, untainted stats are what National presents.

                    Like their claim that the “proportion’ of children in poverty has not increased in 6 years.

                    A lie by omission. They forget to mention because of our population increase, with migration, and births, the total number is increasing.

                    Or the other one. “Average wages have increased beyound the rate of inflation.
                    True, but wages for the poorer 80% have dropped.
                    Average wages are higher because of 17% plus pay rises at the top and casual or no employment dropping of the bottom.

                    Why, do you think there is not a chorus of inflation alarm-ism about , 17% plus rises to “executives” speculators and politicians?

                    Certainly inflates house prices, financial returns and money disappearing into the bottomless maw of the finance industry.

                    Inflation in housing, food, doctors bills and travel, things that people on low incomes have to pay for, have increased at well above the general inflation rate.

                    People at the bottom have been caught in a tide of rising prices and lowering income (only briefly slowed during the last Labour Government) since the “reforms”, that were supposed to make us ALL better off, in the 80’s and 90’s.

                • alwyn

                  I hope you aren’t calling everyone who doesn’t supply citations a tr*ll are you?
                  I have been curious about something Tracey said and where I asked for, but haven’t seen a citation.

                  The working poor

                  You wouldn’t call Tracey a tr*ll would you?

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Nope, I’m referencing Goodsweat’s refusal to provide citations, not their failure to thus far.

                    • weka

                      Goodsweat subscribes to the John Key school of knowledge: there’s no such thing as evidence, you just pay the right scientists/researcher to support your belief (or in this case, gut feeling).

                      Debate within the realms of fantasy.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Mr. Key only says that when it’s convenient. What he practices is another thing entirely.

              • Ad

                Goodsweat you need to step up your quality of debate if you’re going to be of any use around here.

              • Paul

                Of course…

          • Tracey 7.1.1.1.2

            you havent provided a single source to refute the post or support your assertions.

            great that you have choices of countries to live in. yay you. meanwhile fellow kiwis are living in ganglands and derelict areas trying to pay their bills. what y
            ou “think” doesnt change that.

            present credible sources and we will see what I accept.
            . assuming that I will behave the same way as you is the crux of your fallacy set out here. you think the world is for everyone as it is for you. its not. I care about that you dont. that is the biggest difference.

      • Paul 7.1.2

        You may like it here and it is clear you don’t care if life is utterly wretched for others living here.
        Which says a lot about your worldview.

      • Paul 7.1.3

        Did you watch Latta’s series?
        One of the most impressive aspects about it was Nigel Latta’s ability to be open to new ideas and overcome his prejudices.

        • goodsweat 7.1.3.1

          I tried clicking on your link Paul and was reminded that I’ve just used up my BB allowance for the month, more in 2 days. I’ll come back and look at it. I suspect I’m going to see a story of how in spite of one of the most generous welfare systems in the world this family are in dire need.

          People in dire need require immediate assistance. Once administered, avenues for finding ways for families to become self sufficient must be explored. We need to get better at this, it brings so much more than cash. We all want to feel like a contributing and valued part of our society.

          • Paul 7.1.3.1.1

            Judge after you watch it.
            Both of them work.
            And get paid dreadful wages.
            So not thing to do with welfare…..
            At first you seemed plausible but it’s starting to feel like discussing issues with srylands or chris73.
            Who did you vote for in the election?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.3.1.1.1

              This one has a modicum of self-awareness: “I suspect you’d refuse to recognise the source. I’d probably do the same with any sources you may present.”

              Ok, so they’re projecting crap ethics onto Tracey, and at least they acknowledge their own mental incapacity.

              • goodsweat

                Do you think people are more likely to consider what I have to say if I’m pleasant and amiable towards them?

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Contradictory facts harden false beliefs: “consideration” doesn’t come into it. You’re right about the value of emotion in debate though, emotional strategies have shown promise where logic fails: the Dunning-Kruger effect etc.

                  Amiable and pleasant are more-or-less forgettable though, dipshit 😈

            • goodsweat 7.1.3.1.1.2

              I’ll watch it when I can Paul. Yes, we must find a way for hard working and under-paid people to enjoy more of the fruits of life, the benefits are many fold, we agree there. I’m of the opinion that there are better ways than just passing a law and making it so.

              As I’ve stated, I believe inflation will gobble it and more. Most businesses in NZ employ a handful of people, if a wage bill goes up by $400 pw and productivity stays in exactly the same place, where will the money come from? Some might suggest that the boss lower his income from $2000 to $1600 a week. No matter if this is a good or bad idea, it’s unlikely to happen. The people with the air-conditioning units the boss looks after are going to get a letter a bit like the 30 he has already received “Dear Sir, due to increased staffing costs our charge out rate…blah blah

              Menial jobs are fast disappearing, soon it won’t matter what canning line staff are paid per week. I’m in support of Kelvin Davis re: what to do about this: education, education, education. That’s what it’s going to take in 30 years to be leading the life-styles we all aspire to.

              I was surprised to read that many of those mega mining trucks are no longer driven by people. They crawl their way up and down those coiling roads in open cast mines via GPS etc.

              I voted for that nice man with the teeth. I’m a bit over the left/right showdown. Any Labour government that appeals enough to win an election is going to be so like National, spotting a difference will be like playing Where’s Wally. I’m for people.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                I believe inflation will gobble it and more. Most businesses in NZ employ a handful of people, if a wage bill goes up by $400 pw and productivity stays in exactly the same place, where will the money come from?

                Right there: a false belief.

                1. Cullen raised the MW nine times in nine years, rises in the median wage outstripped inflation, and unemployment went down to the lowest level in recorded NZ history.

                2. Seattle: highest MW, lowest unemployment. The US is a great place to compare economic policies between states.

                So simply, where, on Earth, do your beliefs match reality? Surely it can’t be that hard: show us a place where they came true, because New Zealand ain’t it.

                • Tracey

                  no he didnt and no it didnt.

                  is this quality debate oab?

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    I think the issue is whether Goodsweat (doncha jus’ lurve the dogwhistle implicit in the pseudonym?) can debate at all.

                    • Tracey

                      i agree…

                      theres no deoderant poweful enough to make the sweat of a troll, good.

                    • goodsweat

                      I get the feeling that you are trying to insult me away. It says way more about you than it does me.

                      There was bitter inflation during the last Labour term, it just depends what undeniable proof we want to refer to. That’s why I don’t.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Um, no, there wasn’t (cf: the median wage 1999-2008). I’m going to have to cite John Key and Bill English on that one. “this is the rainy day the government has been saving up for”, and so-on and so-forth.

                      You see? Another false belief, and here I am presenting contradictory facts which will harden your false belief: you will cling to it like a security blankie.

                    • Tracey

                      oab

                      what these guys dont address is more revealing than the posts they address.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Sure is Tracey 🙂

              • KJT

                http://www.ibtimes.com/minimum-wage-washington-after-16-years-state-highest-minimum-wage-maintains-lower-unemployment

                Washington State has, as the right wing claim, a higher level of 16 and 17 year olds not in paid work. They forget to mention it has one of the highest levels of 16 and 17 year olds in tertiary training.

  8. Foreign waka 8

    NZ and many other countries are grappling with the same issues:
    1/ the continued war is eating the biggest part of the economic pie
    2/ the concept on which the economies work is one of winners and losers. Unfortunately, the losers are now in the majority and the equilibrium is seriously disturbed. This has lead in some countries to the safest bet politically: Lets join a war to distract from the issues at home.
    3/ Environment and sustainability. The forests (lungs of the earth) are still disappearing at an astronomical rate and yet all those talk fests and carbon credit (business as usual) has not changed anything. Countries whose rainforest is being destroyed want to join the new dairy bonanza. Fair enough, it wont last very long though.
    4/ Technology and its advances. A complete factory that produces an output that could satisfy a large city (not NZ 🙂 ) can be run by 3 (!) people. This has been already proven. The issue of cause is that production would truly outstrip demand in 5 seconds flat. How are we going to deal with this, what decision need to be made for all without having justification for point 1?

  9. The whole point of NACTs economic policy is to drive beneficiaries into work to increase competition for casualised jobs, driving down wages and creating more casualised low-wage jobs and hence increased profits.

    Eroding workers rights to achieve this is therefore very important to them.

    They do it by dividing beneficiaries from low paid workers so that the underclass is presented as the enemy and not the capitalist system.

    Capitalism never has had an equilibrium. That is a lie spun by neo-classical economics.

    It is an anarchistic crisis-ridden system zero-sum system where the capitalists concentrate global wealth in the hands of the 1% at the expense of the 99%.

    Capitalism is today facing an existential crisis which means that unless it forces workers to pay for the crisis by driving down wages, the system may fail.

    Factor in that capitalism is also using up finite natural resources in a futile attempt to solve its crisis then it faces the inevitable double bang of near-term climate collapse.

    We have to make the fight for a living wage into the fight for the living.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.1

      +1

      • KJT 9.1.1

        Hang on. Capitalism works fine, so long as there is a large dose of Socialism.

        The most successful economies in History are the ones with a sensible mix.

        • Murray Rawshark 9.1.1.1

          The times they are a changing, and the most successful economies in history have brought us global warming. Capitalism, which depends on growth, can no longer work for the good of the planet irrespective of the admixture of social democracy.

        • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1.2

          Nope, capitalism doesn’t work at all. This is because it inevitably results in too much wealth and power getting in to too few hands and those few then becoming plutocrats. This is what Piketty and history has shown us.

  10. The Other Mike 10

    The UK follows Minimum Wage trends already measured in the USA and elsewhere. Even the (Tory) UK PM Cameron supports MW (ahem Mr Key).

    From http://www.livingwage.org.uk/what-living-wage

    “Good for Business

    An independent study examining the business benefits of implementing a Living Wage policy in London found that more than 80% of employers believe that the Living Wage had enhanced the quality of the work of their staff, while absenteeism had fallen by approximately 25%.

    Two thirds of employers reported a significant impact on recruitment and retention within their organisation. 70% of employers felt that the Living Wage had increased consumer awareness of their organisation’s commitment to be an ethical employer.

    Following the adoption of the Living Wage PwC found turnover of contractors fell from 4% to 1%.

    Good for Families

    The Living Wage affords people the opportunity to provide for themselves and their families. [i.e. no Govt top-ups, aka Corporate Welfare]

    75% of employees reported increases in work quality as a result of receiving the Living Wage.

    50% of employees felt that the Living Wage had made them more willing to implement changes in their working practices; enabled them to require fewer concessions to effect change; and made them more likely to adopt changes more quickly.”

    No-brainer.

    • Tracey 10.1

      that settles that then. fortunately goodsweat didnt need to be right and will be pleased we can implement this without the sky falling. a win win day at the standard.

  11. goodsweat 11

    I’ve got nothing to hide, I’m sorry if I missed a post/question. I’m not striving to be right or wrong. I know I’m not Steve Hawking but jibes about anybody’s mental capacity do little to further discussions like this. If my intellect is beneath you, why just swing by to chuck stones? Ignore me.

    • Tracey 11.1

      are you a victim now?!?

      • goodsweat 11.1.1

        Goodness no, I love the humble life I’ve sculpted for myself. I’m just saying that belittling people for the way they feel is a pursuit for the shallow.

        • Tracey 11.1.1.1

          how they feel? i thought we were having a “quality debate” about what you think?

          • goodsweat 11.1.1.1.1

            Aren’t they the same thing?

            We have a productivity and a housing shortage. Those 2 should get married. When we can’t get a builder for love nor money, all wages will rise. By natural forces. Love it or hate it, we’re stuck with our free-market model…no Germans were trying to sneak into East Germany.

            I think an election win for Labour lived in their housing policy. Carefully managed it could of addressed many of the platform Labour issues and Joe Blow concerns. Training young people, lifting wages for the right reasons, housing shortage, creating opportunities. A fair go for everyone.

            When backed with action, hope and aspiration shouldn’t go unrewarded.

            Most of all it’s being constructive. Kiwis like that. Everyone does. All creatures are born to strive.

            • Tracey 11.1.1.1.1.1

              you believe thinking and feeling are the same thing. that is an interesting notion.

              you seem a confused wee kiwi. hopefully you find clarity, if that is something you seek.

            • KJT 11.1.1.1.1.2

              Well. If they had “left it to the market” for builders in Christchurch, instead of using immigration, legislation and a single labour buyer (Fletchers) to limit builders pay, they may have got some decent builders down there.

              However, Fletcher’s profits were more important.

              If they had done the opposite with housing, not “left it to the market”, with housing supply, New Zealand builders may have been able to afford to work down there, and build quality houses.

              However, delusional right wing Governments, will not do what works. They will do whatever it takes to maximise their funders profits.

              Builders wages have not risen, because our Government does whatever is necessary to make their mates richer and the country poorer.

            • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1.1.1.3

              Aren’t they the same thing?

              No. Quality debate requires facts, not feelings or belief. The facts contradict your feelings.

              When we can’t get a builder for love nor money, all wages will rise. By natural forces.

              Capitalism isn’t natural and every time that it’s been tried has resulted in extensive poverty and the eventual collapse of the society that tried it.

              Love it or hate it, we’re stuck with our free-market model

              No we’re not.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 11.2

      Even intellectuals cling to their security blankies when presented with inconvenient facts. Why should you be any different?

      All I asked you to do is cite somewhere on Earth where the things you believe come true. Still waiting.

  12. goodsweat 12

    I’m kidding, I’m fishing with another Trace.

    Forget me, how do we create a more balanced NZ?

    • Lloyd 12.1

      gOODSWEAT it is blindingly obvious – REPLACE THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT.

    • Tracey 12.2

      stop voting for, and accepting the status quo. give a shit for others less fortunate. understand that generosity applies not just to stuff but spirit.

    • framu 12.3

      stop tooling is a good start mate

      this whole thread is full of you behaving like a complete ass – to the point where its clear its deliberate.

      • goodsweat 12.3.1

        I’m not trying to be someone I’m not, I’m a natural complete ass.

        All I am essentially saying is: I believe we stand a better chance of building a more prosperous society for everyone if we do it via a considered increase in productivity as opposed to stating ‘As of next week everyone gets an extra 100 bucks.’

        Why do so many here feel threatened by my sharing this thought, compelled to come into the thread and contribute not much more than another gob of phlegm in my face. I guess it’s a bit like the flak Little seems to be copping for suggesting a review of the party stand on CGT.

        Strong and principled people can talk about any subject whatsoever without displaying the symptoms of fear.

  13. A voter 13

    If yo keep lying about the fact that most people are good honest workers and that the unions that represent them are out for personal gain off those workers and that only employers have the legal right to assess the what is a living wage thru their political reps in parliament then you have a serious problem with a bunch of fascist psycho rednecks Who need their clock cleaned
    HULLO JOHN AND CO. you tory waste of space

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Backstage and Theatre
    The swan politicians may be gliding on the water, occasionally snapping at one another. Meanwhile, as the Covid19 crisis illustrates, the officials are desperately paddling below providing the real locomotion. One of the most fatuous recent grandstanding comments (of about a week ago), adding to the public’s anxieties, was ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    44 mins ago
  • Legal Beagle: Waiver, the singular Crown and the conduct of Crown legal business
    Much has been written about the importance of discretion in an emergency situation, and the concerns raised by the potential for it to be exercised arbitrarily. Given the quality of the discussion, there seemed little point in adding to it at any length. In particular, I point to the evidence ...
    49 mins ago
  • Highlights from Bauer Media’s science-related reporting
    Today has felt surreal. I was all set to touch base online with my science communication students when a colleague shared the news that Bauer Media would be shutting down its publications immediately. The first link I saw implied it was Woman’s Weekly affected, and even that shocked me. But ...
    SciBlogsBy Sarah-Jane O'Connor
    2 hours ago
  • Outsiders.
    Bogeymen, Real And Imagined: Is the number of psychopathic and sociopathic individuals in any given society truly as vanishingly small as we like to tell ourselves? Isn’t it more likely that the mass-shooters and serial-killers filling the headlines represent only the tip of a much, much larger iceberg of frightfulness? ...
    6 hours ago
  • We have a right to know the rules we are expected to obey
    Outgoing Police Commissioner Mike Bush appeared before the Epidemic Response Committee today, who asked him for the rules police are using to enforce the lockdown. He refused:Police Commissioner Mike Bush has admitted the advice given to Kiwis about what they're able to do during the lockdown hasn't been clear enough. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 hours ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 7 (sanitised version)
    For those folk who find my other Lock-Down Diary versions too “negative” or otherwise unpalatable… Here’s a photo of my cat, . . Better? Tomorrow’s Sanitised Version: a pretty flower. . . . =fs= ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    7 hours ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 7
    . . April 1: Day seven of living in lock-down… This morning I had a brief chat with one of my neighbours, “D” (social distance between us, a good three or four metres). I learned he had resigned from his previous job and had been hired by another company – ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    7 hours ago
  • RIP The Listener, New Zealand’s pioneering voice
    Funnily enough, my thought as I start this post is whether it will be well written enough. Or should that be well enough written? Because so much of what I know about good writing came from my two stints at The Listener, which this morning was shut down due to ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    8 hours ago
  • OK, Britney: stop sniping at National for doing its job
    With normal democratic procedures in abeyance, there were two ways to go. First, it was open for the government to dissolve itself and invite the National Party to join a ministry of national salvation. That would have lessened the democratic deficit of the times by having a team of rivals without ...
    PunditBy Liam Hehir
    11 hours ago
  • Helpful tips for parents during lockdown
    Dr Kirsty Ross Children and young people can respond differently in times of distress. This also varies by age and developmental stage, with younger children having more magical and imaginative thinking, and older children having more awareness and knowledge of the issues our communities are facing (which brings up ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    12 hours ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #13, 2020
    1 day ago
  • Hungary is now a dictatorship
    Hungary has been a virtual dictatorship for a decade now, as Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has gradually eroded its democracy. But now, its official, with the passage of an indefinite emergency law allowing rule by decree:Hungary’s parliament has passed a new set of coronavirus measures that includes jail terms for ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • A new Ministry of Works
    While the economy is on pause under lockdown, the government is beginning to plan how to cope with the post-lockdown, post-tourism, post-export education world we will eventually find ourselves in. They're planning a lot of infrastructure spending as economic stimulus, and have asked for proposals which can start the moment ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • Capture: Well spaced out
    It's my distraction,  setting up tiny scenes to photograph.  I've got stuck on the Babushka dolls for now.  Something about their bubble shape.  Something about their never changing, smiling features, suggesting persistent equanimity.  Can we get through everything that is being thrown at us and keep at least a tiny ...
    1 day ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 6
    . . March 31: Day six of living in lock-down… This time I managed to sleep a little longer and the alarm woke me at the pre-set time: 6.55am. Then remembered I was working a later shift and could’ve slept in. Oh well, there are things to do at home. ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    1 day ago
  • March ’20 – NZ blogs sitemeter ranking
    Image credit: Diamond Harbour School Blogs I notice a few regulars no longer allow public access to the site counters. This may happen accidentally when the blog format is altered. If your blog is unexpectedly missing or ...
    1 day ago
  • Hard News: Poll Pot and the partisans
    Yesterday's Horizon poll showing support for a "Yes" vote in this year's cannabis referendum sliding into the majority for the first time in a year looked like good news for reformers – and it probably is. But the result warrants some scrutiny.The poll is the fifth in a series commissioned ...
    1 day ago
  • Why those bubbles are so important
    For almost a week now, every one of us who isn’t an essential worker has been confined to their bubble. We are allowed to go shopping for groceries, to visit the doctor, and to get a bit of exercise if we stay local. The reason we are doing this is ...
    SciBlogsBy Siouxsie Wiles
    1 day ago
  • A Government System That Works
    The Covid-19 saga will no doubt produce many twists and turns for us before it is finally brought to an end. But one thing it has shown us – and what comfort it should bring us – is that our country’s government is in good hands. I am not thinking ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 day ago
  • Smashing down the barriers: Where are we at with COVID vaccines?
    In the absence of a vaccine or a cure for a deadly disease, staying home in your bubble is what you do, the concept is not new.  To the best of my knowledge last time we did this in NZ was for polio, in the years before a vaccine came ...
    SciBlogsBy Helen Petousis Harris
    2 days ago
  • National Network on Cuba (USA): “Cuban medical solidarity is a pillar of its society and is founde...
    The following statement was released on March 28 by the National Network on Cuba, a coalition of 40 groups, based in the United States. In recent weeks, Cuba has deployed hundreds of medical providers to over a dozen countries in Europe, Asia, as well as to their neighbors in Latin ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 days ago
  • Alarming decrease in calves increases fears for endangered Hector’s dolphin
    This has been a terrible summer for Hector’s dolphins. The first indication was very low numbers of dolphin sightings during late spring and early summer. The Otago University Marine Mammal Research Team has carried out routine dolphin surveys at Banks Peninsula for more than 30 years. In all that time, ...
    SciBlogsBy Otago Marine Science
    2 days ago
  • Time for Grant Robertson to reveal package #2?
    On March 17, Finance Minister Grant Robertson was quick out of the blocks with an economic rescue package to help businesses through the inevitable recession resulting from the coronavirus pandemic. Robertson had pulled together a scheme in short order that so far seems to have saved many jobs. In his ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    2 days ago
  • Saving lives
    The purpose of the lockdown is to save lives, by reducing the spread of covid-19. We won't know if its really working for another week, but given the devastation that will result if it doesn't - 14,000 dead is the optimistic scenario - its definitely worth trying. But pausing the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 5
    . . March 30: Day five of living in lock-down… Woke up still in darkness. Alarm hadn’t gone off. Turn to radio clock; it’s a few minutes after 6am… I lie there in the dark, waiting to drift off to sleep… but it ain’t happening. Clock ticks over to 6.55 ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    2 days ago
  • Speaker: Les Gray: the man who told the truth
    The story of Les Gray, the public sector psychologist who told the truth about his use of cannabis and set off a storm, has a special place in the lore of cannabis reform in New Zealand.When Paul Shannon interviewed Gray for the 'Dope and Hope' issue of Planet magazine in ...
    2 days ago
  • Why now? Historical specificity and the perfect storm that has created trans identity politics
    by Phil Duncan For Marxists, a key concern about social trends is their context – not just their causes, but why they happen when they do.  Events and phenomena have causes, but they also are time or period-specific. While much of the left have capitulated recently to postmodernism, most notably ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    3 days ago
  • Time for a living wage for supermarket workers
    Since the lockdown began, we've all suddenly been reminded who the actually essential workers in our society are: not the people at the top who pay themselves the big bucks and rort the perks, but the people at the bottom they screw over and squeeze: cleaners, warehouse staff, truck drivers ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Hard News: MUSIC: Lockdown Grooves
    Kia ora! As I've watched nearly all my remaining work vanish over the past couple of days, it has occured to me that one good way to keep me away from arguing with fools on Twitter all the time (in the knowledge that all we're really doing is processing our ...
    3 days ago
  • A place of greater safety?
    Aotearoa New Zealand has committed to trying to extirpate the virus that causes COVID-19 from its shores. To do that, as a society we’ve moved to “Level 4”. That means adapting to unprecedented restrictions on our personal freedoms, particularly to our rights to move freely and associate with friends and ...
    PunditBy Andrew Geddis
    3 days ago
  • The police and public trust
    When the Prime Minister declared a state of emergency last week, she handed the police powers to enforce it. And almost immediately, we started hearing about heavy-handed, arbitrary "enforcement" by police who (at best) cared more about order than law, or (more likely) had no idea what the rules were ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 4
    . . Lock Down: Day 4 – A photo essay with observations . March 29: Usual wake up routine as RNZ snaps on my radio-clock. Jim Mora’s voice slowly enters my conciousness; there’s talk of a second wave of covid19 taking hold in South Korea; the week in Parliament – ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    3 days ago
  • COVID-19 vs New Zealand
    Yesterday, New Zealand recorded its first Covid-19 related death on the West Coast. Unfortunately this is unlikely to be the only fatality, with the virus now being found in every region of the country.However despite the significant danger, people are still unfortunately breaching lockdown rules.There’s really only one main very ...
    3 days ago
  • 2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #13
    Story of the Week... Toon of the Week... Coming Soon on SkS... Climate Feedback Claim Review... SkS Week in Review... Poster of the Week... Story of the Week... ‘Misinformation kills’: The link between coronavirus conspiracies and climate denial   Grist / Rob Kim / Stringer / CSA Images  Scientific ...
    3 days ago
  • Rāhui day 4
    The kids did surprisingly well today – meltdown count was about 3, and mostly fairly short ones. (And a fourth while I was writing.) Game-wise I had a go at Fell Seal: Arbiter’s Mark. It’s a fairly standard RPG with turn-based combat and what they call a “mature storyline” (it ...
    The little pakehaBy chrismiller
    4 days ago
  • Letter to a friend
    by Don Franks Hi David, Nice hearing from you, I’m glad to hear you’re getting by okay in these grim times. You asked how’s it going for us back here in New Zealand. You would have heard that the whole country is locked down and with breaks for exercise and ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    4 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 3
    . . Lock Down: Day 3 – A photo essay with observations . March 28: First day of the first weekend in Lock Down. It feels like it’s been weeks since only Level 3 was declared last Tuesday, only four days ago. Woke up this morning to RNZ; coffee; toast, ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    4 days ago
  • 2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #13
    A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week, i.e., Sun, Mar 22, 2020 through Sat, Mar 28, 2020 Articles Linked to on Facebook Sun, Mar 22, 2020 In Just 10 Years, Warming Has Increased the Odds of Disasters by Chelsea Harvey, ...
    5 days ago
  • Rāhui day 3
    I’m here in lockdown with my flatmate and her two girls (6 and 2) and it. is. a time. They’re usually really active so to start with the only boardgame in the house is the copy of Guess Who that the 6 year old got for her birthday. Flatmate commented ...
    The little pakehaBy chrismiller
    5 days ago
  • A test of civil society.
    The CV-19 (COVID) pandemic has seen the imposition of a government ordered national quarantine and the promulgation of a series of measures designed to spread the burden of pain and soften the economic blow on the most strategically important and most vulnerable sectors of society. The national narrative is framed ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    5 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 2
    . . Lock Down: Day 2 – A photo essay with observations . March 27 – Day 2 of our Strange New World. The Park and Ride near my suburb, usually filled with hundreds of vehicles, had just… four; . . Another drive into Wellington City on a highway nearly ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    5 days ago
  • How Do You Feel? What Do You Think?
    Fortune's Children: Under extraordinary pressure, the leader of the Government and the leader of the Opposition will each show us what they are made of. Have they been blessed with intelligence, grace, wit, poise, toughness, empathy and humour – and in what measure? More importantly, to what extent have they ...
    5 days ago
  • Landlords are NOT an essential service
    If you’ve ever had the misfortune of having to rent a property on the open market in New Zealand, which is one of the most expensive in the entire world, you’ll likely be keenly aware of just how arrogant and entitled landlords and their real estate agents can be.Unfortunately for ...
    5 days ago
  • A “new Society” post-COVID19 will definitely emerge. The question is: on what path?
    Society-wise, aside from the specific morbidity shall we say of the medically-oriented aspects of this COVID-19 crisis, what is unfolding before the world is in more than one way an instructive study of humanity and reactions to a high intensity, high stress environment in real time. Friends, we are at ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    6 days ago
  • Raise the Bar: Everything you need to know about the wage subsidy
    Right now low waged and insecure workers are feeling the economic brunt of the looming #Covid19 Recession. In response legal advocate Toby Cooper* and hospitality and worker’s rights advocate Chloe Ann-King, are putting together a series of legal blogs about your employment rights: In this legal blog we outline some ...
    PosseBy chloeanneking
    6 days ago
  • The massacre of prisoners in Modelo jail, Bogota, March 21
    by Equipo Jurídico Pueblos and Gearóid Ó Loingsigh (25/03/2020) An escape plan in question On the night of March 21st and the early morning of the 22nd, the forces of the Colombian state stormed into the Modelo prison in Bogotá, murdering 23 prisoners and injuring 83, in response to the ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    6 days ago
  • We are not America
    When the government banned semi-automatic weapons in response to a terrorist atrocity, gun-nuts were outraged. Mired in toxic American gun culture, they thought owning weapons whose sole purpose was killing people was some sort of "constitutional right", a necessity for "defending themselves" against the government. Now, the Court of Appeal ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • When will we know the lockdown is working?
    Just before midnight on Wednesday March 25, Aotearoa New Zealand entered a countrywide alert level four lockdown. For at least the next four weeks, everyone who isn’t an essential worker is confined to their bubble. We are doing this to stop the explosive growth in people contracting and dying from ...
    SciBlogsBy Siouxsie Wiles
    6 days ago
  • Lock Down: Day 1
    . . Lock Down: Day 1 – A photo essay with observations . Day one of the Level 4 nationwide lock-down (or, DefCon 4 as I sometimes cheekily call it) started at 11.59PM on 25 March. For a moment, most of the nation held it’s collective breath. In that brief ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    6 days ago
  • A Compelling Recollection.
    Broad, Sunlit Uplands: How those words fired my young imagination! Or, perhaps, it is more accurate to say: how those words fused, in my young mind, with the image printed on every packet of Fielder’s Cornflour. Always fascinated by history, especially modern history, I cannot hear Churchill’s wonderfully evocative words, even ...
    6 days ago
  • The Warehouse – where everyone gets a virus
    . . 24 March 2020 9.46AM Number of covid19 cases in Aotearoa New Zealand: 102 . As of 11.59 on Thursday, most of New Zealand will go into “lock down”. People will be expected not to travel to work; not to socialise; and to stay home. I will not be ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    6 days ago
  • Aggressive action to address climate change could save the world $145 trillion
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections A respected research group, Project Drawdown, finds that deploying solutions consistent with meeting the Paris climate targets would cost tens of trillions of dollars globally. But crucially, those outlays would also yield long-term savings many times larger than the up-front costs. The new 2020 Drawdown ...
    7 days ago
  • After the Pandemic
    It will pass. What happens next? Not immediately, but longer term. There are many opinions, fewer certainties. Will it “change everything!” as many confidently, and contradictorily predict? In this post I look at how foresight can help bound some of the uncertainties so you can more objectively consider the future. ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    1 week ago
  • Coronavirus – Cuba shows the way
    We’ve been meaning t write something on Cuba and the coronavirus but have just discovered a very good article on the subject in the US left publication Jacobin.  The article looks at how Cuba, a poor country but one where capitalism has been done away with, is leading the way ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Using privacy law to prevent the death penalty
    In 2018, El Shafee Elsheikh and Alexanda Kotey - two British citizens who had purportedly been stripped of their citizenship by the British government - were captured while fighting for Isis in Syria. The British government then conspired to hand them over to the US, and agreed to provide evidence ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • It’s Time For Disaster Socialism.
    Transformers: The disaster of the Great Depression was transformed into a new and fairer society by the democratic socialism of the First Labour Government. The disaster of the Covid-19 Pandemic offers a similar transformative possibility to the Labour-NZ First-Green Government. Seize the time, Jacinda! You will never have a better ...
    1 week ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #12, 2020
    Tamper with The System? Well, we already are. But there's a difference between accidentally trickling sand into a precision gearbox versus formulating a plan to alter it on the fly with improvements in mind. One action is more or less innocently unscrupulous, the other amenable to earning an easy ...
    1 week ago
  • Avoidable hospitalisations: Helping our health system get through COVID-19
    Associate Prof George Thomson, Louise Delany, Prof Nick Wilson While it is possible that New Zealand can use intense public health controls to eradicate COVID-19 from the country – we must also plan for other scenarios where thousands of New Zealanders are sick – including many urgently hospitalised.1 Better resilience ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 week ago
  • Raise the Bar: 10 questions to ask your employer proposing redundancy
    Kia ora my name is Chloe Ann-King* and I am the founder of Raise the Bar, a campaign and non-profit that gives free legal aid, advocacy and tautoko to hospitality workers in Aotearoa. Right now all over our country hospo workers are being fired at will, having shifts cut or being ...
    PosseBy chloeanneking
    1 week ago
  • An equitable way to support business
    The Herald reports that the government is planning to lend billions of dollars to large businesses to keep them operating during the pandemic. As with mortgage relief, this is necessary: we need companies to stay in business, to reduce the economic damage and help things get restarted again when this ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Hard News: Together Alone
    We're about to do something unprecedented as a nation. We hope that by taking this extraordinary action before a single life in New Zealand has been lost to the deadly novel virus we will save tens of thousands of lives. Our  lives. We'll do it together, in households, in isolation ...
    1 week ago
  • Why timing is everything: ‘A time to refrain from embracing’ starts today
    “There is a time for everything,    and a season for every activity under the heavens.”So writes the author of Ecclesiastes, a book in the Old Testament that’s counted as a ‘wisdom’ book and written as if by an unnamed king of Jerusalem. But who would have thought there would be a time ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    1 week ago
  • Dealing with the Covid-19 Tsunami.
    I was surprised when the prime minister described the Economic Response to Covid-19 package as the ‘largest peacetime government spend in New Zealand's history’. Reflecting – checking through history – I realised that the term ‘spend’ was crucial and the package had no income tax cuts. Even so, it has ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    1 week ago
  • What about renters?
    The government today announced the latest part of its pandemic relief package: a six-month mortgage holiday for people whose incomes have been affected by the pandemic. Which is great, because these people are going to need help, and that's what the government should be doing. At the same time, it ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Living within our means.
    Years ago the Argentine sociologist Carlos Weisman wrote a book titled “Living within our Means.” It was a critique of Argentine society that focused on the paradoxical question of why, in a land of plenty, there was so much economic instability, inequality, corruption and political turmoil. His conclusion was basically ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Transparency and the pandemic
    Parliament will be leading by example and adjourning tomorrow after a special sitting to consider an epidemic notice and state of emergency. Day-to-day oversight of the government will be delegated to a select committee. But that's not the only overight mechanism. The OIA will still be law, and (so far) ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • ‘Overjoyed’: a leading health expert on New Zealand’s coronavirus shutdown, and the challengin...
    Michael Baker, University of Otago Overjoyed. That’s not a word epidemiologists normally use, but that’s how I felt after hearing Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s announcement about New Zealand’s COVID-19 shutdown of everything except essential services for at least four weeks from midnight on Wednesday. More than anything, I just ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 week ago
  • One way to solve the housing crisis
    How much homelessness is caused by house hoarding? We're about to find out. The pandemic has destroyed tourism, which means that house hoarders who put their hoarded properties up as short-term tourist rentals are now offering them on the ordinary rental market:Property investors are pulling properties from Airbnb to offer ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The pros and cons of planting trees to address global warming
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Bruce Lieberman It seems like such a simple, straightforward, empowering idea: plant trees – a lot of trees – all over the world, and watch the planet’s temperature fall. Who doesn’t love a tree or two, even far more – the right ...
    1 week ago
  • Not a grand coalition, but a government of national salvation
    According to Newshub, Simon Bridges is open to joining a “grand coalition” with Labour as we hunker down to go into a month long lockdown. The idea is sound. Before now, the role of the opposition was to scrutinise and oppose. In the context of what almost amounts to a ...
    PunditBy Liam Hehir
    1 week ago
  • Raise the Bar: hospitality workers & wage subsidy entitlements
    Kia ora my name is Chloe Ann-King* and I am the founder of Raise the Bar, a campaign and non-profit that gives free legal aid, advocacy and tautoko to hospitality workers in Aotearoa. Right now all over our country hospo workers are being fired at will, having shifts cut or ...
    PosseBy chloeanneking
    1 week ago
  • Lifting our game against COVID-19
    We need to be lifting our game against COVID-19. You and I need to help those working to prevent the spread of COVID-19 while they’re trying to lift the testing and treatment efforts. We don’t want to be playing this game running backwards. Best to play it solidly forward, from ...
    SciBlogsBy Grant Jacobs
    1 week ago
  • The maths and ethics of minimising COVID-19 deaths in NZ
    Prof Tony Blakely, Prof Michael Baker, and Prof Nick Wilson The NZ Government must do more to clearly articulate its COVID-19 strategy: eradication or ‘flattening the curve’ mitigation. But to do so means understanding the maths and ethics of both these strategies. In this blog, we adapt our work for ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 week ago
  • All aboard the Covid Train
    A few days ago I was starting to write something about the pandemic, which now seems unconscionable. It took the form of a letter to an agony aunt:“Dear Deidre, I have an ugly confession. I am quite excited by Covid-19.”This is how the piece went:“I’m not a psychopath, honest. Although the ...
    PunditBy Phil Vine
    1 week ago
  • 2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #12
    Story of the Week... Toon of the Week... Climate Feedback Article Review... Coming Soon on SkS... Climate Feedback Claim Reviews... SkS Week in Review... Poster of the Week... Story of the Week... In Just 10 Years, Warming Has Increased the Odds of Disasters The likelihood of extreme events ...
    1 week ago

  • Butchers now allowed to process pork
    Changes have been made to allow butchers to process pork, only for supply to supermarkets or other processors or retailers that are open, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor has announced. “We carefully weighed the risk of allowing butchers to open their shops for retail customers, but the risk of spreading COVID-19 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • Essential workers leave scheme established
    Essential workers who take leave from work to comply with public health guidance are being supported with a leave scheme to ensure they will continue to receive income, say the Minister of Workplace Relations and Safety Iain Lees-Galloway and Minister for Social Development, Carmel Sepuloni. A number of essential businesses ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 hours ago
  • Govt WhatsApp helps share COVID-19 information
    A Government WhatsApp channel has been launched to help make information more easily accessible and shareable in the fight against COVID-19. Govt.NZ, which is free to use on any mobile device, will carry information and news for the public, businesses, healthcare providers, not for profits and local government. It can ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 hours ago
  • Managed departure plan for stranded foreign nationals enables safe, orderly exit
    The Government has announced a plan to enable the safe, orderly exit of tens of thousands of stranded foreign nationals from New Zealand during the current COVID-19 Alert Level 4 restrictions, Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters has said. “When we moved into lockdown a week ago, the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 hours ago
  • Government delivers COVID-19 support to GPs and Pharmacies
    Health Minister Dr David Clark says the Government is delivering on its commitment to support general practice doctors and nurses, and pharmacies on the front-line of our fight against COVID-19. "For us to overcome COVID-19, we need community health services such as general practice and community pharmacy to step up ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 hours ago
  • Susan Thomas the new Chief High Court Judge
    Justice Susan Thomas has been appointed Chief High Court Judge, Attorney-General David Parker announced today.  She replaces Justice Geoffrey Venning who has resigned from the position.   David Parker paid tribute to Justice Venning, who he said had stewarded the High Court very capably over the last five years.   “On behalf ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 hours ago
  • Business Finance Guarantee – applications open
    Businesses can start applying to their banks for loans under the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme set up to support the New Zealand economy during the COVID-19 pandemic. “We’re moving quickly to protect New Zealand businesses, jobs and the economy during this unprecedented global economic shock,” Finance Minister Grant Robertson said. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Work starts on ways to fast-track consents to boost recovery from Covid-19 downturn
    Work is underway looking at measures to speed up consents for development and infrastructure projects during the recovery from COVID 19, to provide jobs and stimulate our economy.  Environment Minister David Parker said the COVID-19 pandemic is a serious global crisis that will have a wide ranging and lasting impact ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Advance payments to support contractors
    Advance payments will be made to transport construction industry contractors to retain the workforce and ensure it is ready to quickly gear up to build projects which will be vital to New Zealand’s COVID-19 economic recovery, Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced today. He said keeping the workforce required to build ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government seeks infrastructure projects
    The Government has tasked a group of industry leaders to seek out infrastructure projects that are ready to start as soon as the construction industry returns to normal to reduce the economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, Economic Development Minister Phil Twyford and Infrastructure Minister Shane Jones say. The Infrastructure ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Health system scaled up to prepare for COVID-19
    Work to scale up the health system in preparation for COVID-19 was today outlined by Health Minister David Clark, as he reported back to the new Epidemic Response Committee. “We are well placed to contain the spread of COVID-19. We have taken early and decisive action at our borders, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Essential media COVID-19 guidelines refined
    The Government is refining its COVID-19 essential business guidance to include the distribution of news publications for communities which are hard to reach. The Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media, Kris Faafoi, said the move was in recognition of the importance for New Zealanders who might be harder to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Supermarkets able to open on Easter Sunday
    The Government is ensuring supermarkets can open on Easter Sunday so we can buy groceries, but stay closed on Good Friday allowing workers to take a break. This provides a balanced approach and ensures we avoid large queues that two days closure may cause. “Supermarkets will be able to open ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand defence personnel conclude mission at Taji
    Following the successful conclusion of the Building Partner Capacity (BPC) mission at Taji, New Zealand defence personnel are returning to New Zealand from Iraq, in accordance with the Cabinet decision made in June 2019, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Ron Mark announced today. “New Zealand is very ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • State of National Emergency extended
    The State of National Emergency to help stop the spread of COVID-19 has been extended for a further seven days, Minister of Civil Defence Peeni Henare said. The initial declaration on March 25 lasted seven days and can be extended as many times as necessary. “Since we went into isolation ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Strong Govt books support ‘go hard, go early’ response
    New Zealand’s ability to go hard and go early in the fight against COVID-19 has been underpinned by strong Government finances and the growing economy heading into this global pandemic, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. The Treasury today released the Crown financial statements for the eight months to the end ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Christchurch Hospital Hagley ICU to open to support COVID-19 response
    Health Minister Dr David Clark says 36 new intensive care beds at Christchurch Hospital’s new Hagley building are being fast tracked so they are available for treatment of COVID-19 patients.   The Ministry of Health is working with contractor CPB and Canterbury DHB to enable access to the hospital’s ICU, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government supports Air NZ freight flights
    The Government has fast-tracked up to $1 million to help Air New Zealand move urgent freight to and from New Zealand, with the first flight to Shanghai leaving tonight, Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced today. Phil Twyford says it’s crucial that trade in vital goods such as medical supplies and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Tariff concessions on COVID-19 related products
    New Zealand will temporarily remove tariffs on all medical and hygiene imports needed for the COVID-19 response. Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker and Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Kris Faafoi said today that the New Zealand Customs Service will apply tariff concessions to all diagnostic reagents and testing ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Clarification of modification to wage subsidy scheme
    Minister of Finance Grant Robertson has clarified that the changes to the wage subsidy scheme announced yesterday mean that employers should be passing on the full subsidy to workers, except in the case where the person’s normal income is less than the level of the subsidy. “We still want employers ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Face masks flowing to DHBs
    Medical face masks from the national reserve supply are now being distributed to District Health Boards, while at the same time local production is being ramped up. Yesterday more than 640,000 masks were sent to DHBS – that is an immediate two week supply, with more to follow in coming ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • COVID-19: Further steps to protect New Zealanders’ jobs
    The Government has made modifications to the wage subsidy scheme to ensure people don’t lose their jobs during the national lockdown. These changes will soften the impact of COVID-19 on workers, families and businesses, and position them to exit the lockdown and look to recovery, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Tax relief for Mycoplasma Bovis farmers
    Farmers whose herds were culled in response to the outbreak of Mycoplasma bovis will be able to minimise the tax treatment of their income in some circumstances. Revenue Minister Stuart Nash says Cabinet has agreed to change the law. It means farmers may be eligible to spread their income over ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • $27 million for NGOs and community groups to continue providing essential services
    A $27 million dollar package, effective immediately, is being provided to social sector services and community groups to ensure they can continue to provide essential support to communities as we stay at home as a nation to stop the spread of COVID-19, Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni announced. “At ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Statement on guilty plea of March 15 terrorist
    “The guilty plea today will provide some relief to the many people whose lives were shattered by what happened on March 15,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. “These guilty pleas and conviction bring accountability for what happened and also save the families who lost loved ones, those who were injured, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19 updates
    The Prime Minister is holding daily press conferences to update New Zealanders on the Government's response to COVID-19. Links to videos and transcripts of these updates below. These transcripts also include All of Government press conferences led by Director Ministry of Health's Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield. 25 March: Live update from the Prime ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Police numbers break through 10,000 mark
    Frontline Police numbers have broken through the 10,000 mark for the first time in history as officers step forward to keep the community safe during the COVID19 lockdown. “Two Police graduations in Auckland and Wellington in the past week have been conducted in unprecedented circumstances,” Police Minister Stuart Nash said. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Urgent tax measures for economic recovery
    Urgent legislation has been passed to support the package of economic and social measures needed to recover from the impact of the coronavirus outbreak. “The COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill will cushion New Zealanders from the worst economic impacts of the COVID-19 outbreak,” said Revenue Minister ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Further support for farmers and growers as drought persists
    From tomorrow, Government support for farmers and growers affected by drought will be expanded and extended across the country, with access to Rural Assistance Payments (RAPS) available throughout the North Island, parts of the South Island and the Chatham Islands, Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni announced. “These challenging conditions have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Temporary changes to Education Act
    Parliament has passed amendments to legislation that give the Secretary of Education stronger powers to act in the fight to limit the spread of COVID-19, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “They are part of a suite of changes passed under the COVID-19 Response (Urgent Management Measures) Legislation Bill,” Chris ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar join NZ and Singapore in committing to keeping supply a...
    Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar have joined forces with New Zealand and Singapore by committing to keep supply chains open and remove any existing trade restrictive measures on essential goods, especially medical supplies, in the face of the Covid-19 crisis.  Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker today welcomed ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Rent increase freeze and more protection for tenants
    Immediate freeze on rent increases Tenancies will not be terminated during the lock-down period, unless the parties agree, or in limited circumstances Tenants who had previously given notice can stay in their if they need to stay in the tenancy during the lock-down period Tenants will still be able to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Working together to protect businesses and workers
    As New Zealand unites to lock-down in the fight against COVID-19, the Finance Minister is urging all businesses and workers to stay connected over the next four weeks. “We understand the extreme pressure many businesses are under right now. I know most business owners think of their workers as family ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • State of National Emergency declared to fight COVID-19
    A State of National Emergency has been declared across the country as the Government pulls out all the stops to curtail the spread of COVID-19. “Today we put in place our country’s second ever State of National Emergency as we fight a global pandemic, save New Zealanders’ lives and prevent ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister’s statement on State of National Emergency and Epidemic Notice
    Mr Speaker I wish to make a Ministerial Statement under Standing Order 347 in relation to the recent declaration of a State of National Emergency. Having considered the advice of the Director Civil Defence Emergency Management, the Minister of Civil Defence declared a State of National Emergency for the whole of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Deadline for domestic travel extended
    People needing to travel on domestic flights, trains and Cook Strait ferries to get home before the country moves into level 4 lock-down tomorrow night will be able to continue using the passenger services until midnight on Friday, Transport Minister Phil Twyford said today. Domestic passenger services, particularly ferries, have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Mortgage holiday and business finance support schemes to cushion COVID impacts
    The Government, retail banks and the Reserve Bank are today announcing a major financial support package for home owners and businesses affected by the economic impacts of COVID-19. The package will include a six month principal and interest payment holiday for mortgage holders and SME customers whose incomes have been ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government working to keep air freight moving
    Minister of Transport Phil Twyford has today announced details of the Government’s support package to keep key air freight moving and ensure New Zealanders retain access to essential goods during the four-week level 4 lockdown. “The Government is working with airlines and air freight operators to ensure New Zealand’s key ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand moves to COVID-19 Alert Level 3, then Level 4 in 48 hours
    New Zealand moved up to COVID-19 Alert Level 3 – Restrict New Zealand to move up to COVID-19 Alert Level 4 – Eliminate, in 48 hours Two-staged approach to give people and businesses time to prepare  Level 3, from tomorrow Non-essential businesses must close All events and gatherings must be ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister: COVID-19 Alert Level increased
    Good afternoon  The Cabinet met this morning to discuss our next actions in the fight against COVID-19.  Like the rest of the world, we are facing the potential for devastating impacts from this virus. But, through decisive action, and through working together, do we have a small window to get ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago