TPP – with a whimper

Written By: - Date published: 12:41 pm, August 12th, 2016 - 166 comments
Categories: activism, capitalism, class war, Globalisation, trade - Tags: , , ,

Plenty of folk today pronouncing the death of the TPP:
Clinton says she’ll kill trade deal she helped Obama negotiate

“I oppose it now, I’ll oppose it after the election, and I’ll oppose it as president,” she said, detailing her economic plans in a speech in Michigan.

Hillary Clinton: I Oppose TPP Now, I’ll Oppose It as President
Clinton promises to kill the TPP
The TPP is dead

It’s pretty definitive – hard to back down from. I’ll hold off from calling it 100% dead until we’re through the last of Obama’s term and at least 1 year of Clinton, but it does at this point seem to be 99% gone.

This is a victory for activism. For the people or oraganised and protested and made the downsides of the TPP – especially its impact on local jobs – a political issue that could no longer be ignored (in America at least).

No doubt there will be further treaties of this kind proposed. Free trade is a good thing, but it must be balanced with local considerations (and not just a tool for American corporations). Let’s hope the next version, whatever and whenever it is, avoids the many mistakes of the TPP.

166 comments on “TPP – with a whimper”

  1. Enough is Enough 1

    I hate to say it but we have to thank Trump for this.

    Hillary was a key advocate for TPP when she was Secretary of State. Trump’s strong opposition to the TPPA has backed Hillary into this corner.

    • r0b 1.1

      Yeah, ironic isn’t it!

      • dukeofurl 1.1.1

        As Secretary of State she was Obamas employee, and under their system she supported his policies or she quit.
        I dont know whether she opposed the deal in private but was obliged to support it in public.
        Remember as well, the deal wasnt signed off till this year and she wouldnt have been privy to the negotiation details up to the time she quit the cabinet in 2012.

        As for Trump forcing her turn around ?
        Back in october 2015 she wasnt sounding that keen when Trump was nowhere

        Hillary Clinton comes out against TPP trade deal [Oct 2015]
        http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/07/politics/hillary-clinton-opposes-tpp/

        “As of today, I am not in favor of what I have learned about it,” Clinton said, later adding, “I don’t believe it’s going to meet the high bar I have set.””

        reminder , thats was October 2015

    • Actually I’d give the credit to Sanders. If she could have got through to the general without veering populist enough to ditch the TPP I’m pretty sure she would have preferred to, and now she has to follow through if it’s in her hands because otherwise she looks even less trustworthy than people already believe she is.

      • dukeofurl 1.2.1

        Check the references, Clinton was opposed well before Sanders was a force.

        Clinton had a lot of union support as well, which helped confirm her opposition

        • No, I’d check your own references. Even politifact, (which is very friendly to Clinton) notes that she wasn’t against TPP until during the primary campaign: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/08/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-now-opposes-trans-pacific-partners/

          Her position was (likely intentionally) vague at the start of her current campaign and she only came out against TPP after it was clear that the public broadly opposed the deal. And she’s still only against it “in its current form,” whatever that means. (and we don’t know because she doesn’t clarify what it is she no longer likes about the deal, just that it doesn’t “meet [her] high standards”) IIRC she switched positions not long before the first primary debate, and the debates were when she started rebranding as a “progressive who gets things done,” rather than an establishment candidate who believes in triangulation.

      • Ian 1.2.2

        100% Matthew Whitehead

    • mosa 1.3

      And not forgetting Enough that Bernie campaigned hard against it so pressure from all sides, what a shame we couldnt be as fortright !

  2. roy cartland 2

    Would it were so.

    She opposes it in its current form. Which means once it’s ameded and made worse for citizens and better for business, anything is possible.

    • Geoff Lye 2.1

      Thats the worry what form will it be regurgitated as.

    • Pasupial 2.2

      I noticed that too:

      “The answer is to finally make trade work for us, not against us.

      “So my message to every worker in Michigan and across America is this: I will stop any trade deal that kills jobs or holds down wages, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership.”…

      Ms Clinton had also previously supported the North American Free Trade Agreement, which was signed by former President Bill Clinton, her husband, and which Trump routinely disparages as bad for American jobs. Ms Clinton now says she would renegotiate it.

      from the Newshub; Clinton promises to kill the TPP, link in OP.

      A revised agreement called something like; PAFTA, or perhaps just a revamped TISA might be more favourable to USAn interests (though not so good for Aotearoa). And actually have a chance to make it through Congress.

      But; yes, it is certainly a time for a pat on the back for those many citizens who actively opposed the TPPA. However, it is also a time for renewed vigilance.

      • Michelle 2.2.1

        Pity our pm doesn’t think like this oh that’s right he doesn’t think at all. When they change the TPPA to suit businesses NZ should show some guts and kick it to the kerb along with our PM. If Hilary can see this agreement is not good for American workers how come our PM cant see this.

    • Lanthanide 2.3

      If it’s amended, whoever the NZ government is at the time will have to decide whether to continue with the new version or not.

      Hopefully that will be a Labour-led government.

      • mosa 2.3.1

        Lanth that should give Labour a god given opportunity to show where it stands on these anti sovereign-worker agreements without having been locked in already when at some point they govern again in this country.
        I hope they have learned from the TPPA experiment and have some bottom lines before signing up to future agreements.
        Kiwis long term will thank them for it.

    • Bill 2.4

      All she’s essentially saying is that the US hasn’t been unreasonable or brutal enough in free trade negotiations, nor unreasonable and brutal enough in smashing up any form of protection others may try to erect around their economy.

      She is absolutely not saying that she’s suddenly ‘seen the light’ and is against free trade and/or the imposition of free trade agreements/arrangements.

      • dukeofurl 2.4.1

        Thats a false claim. Unsupprted by any evidence at all.
        This is what she DID say back in October 2015 – before Trump, before Sanders

        “Clinton said that she’s worried “about currency manipulation not being part of the agreement” and that “pharmaceutical companies may have gotten more benefits and patients fewer.”
        http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/hillary-clinton-says-she-does-not-support-trans-pacific-partnership/

        • Bill 2.4.1.1

          I just listened to the vid link with a critical ear. Nothing false about it at all.

          • dukeofurl 2.4.1.1.1

            is that a high-faluting way of saying ‘I heard what I wanted to hear’

            Others are less kind and might call it ‘mansplaining’

            • Bill 2.4.1.1.1.1

              But those others would have to less kind and more of a vacuous brained wanker than you exhibit yourself to be with that comment…and I doubt there’s many people who’d fit the bill.

              If you’re going to hurl insults (not recommended btw) then learn the fucking etymology of phrases or words that you’re going to use before you use them.

              • dukeofurl

                That little fulminations broke all the policy rules, not that its stopped you before.
                Get used to being called out for your falsehoods and confabulations and mansplaining to your repertoire.

                A Man telling a women what she says really means, even though she is the more qualified or expert.
                I hope you dont try that with your students.

    • dukeofurl 2.5

      cant be amended now.
      The Trade deal can only be accepted as or rejected entirely under the laws for these sort of deals.

      • ianmac 2.5.1

        Not what the USA think dikeofurl. They have been lobbying countries to accept amendments. If you are big and tough you can do that. Huh!

        • dukeofurl 2.5.1.1

          You are dreaming. The text cant be changed by Congress. I heard about the side letters and such , but thats not the text

      • Sacha 2.5.2

        Please read Kelsey on how the US insists on their agenda being implemented in any trade agreement process *after* the signing, including via ‘side letters’.

        • Macro 2.5.2.1

          ^^^ THIS
          Canada has been royally shafted by the NAFTA over the past few years as have the working people of the States. These “deals” are disastrous to all save the elite.

  3. Lanthanide 3

    I wonder if we can roll back to the deal as it was before the US and Japan blundered onto the scene, and continue negotiations with the other pacific countries.

  4. whateva next? 4

    Shame we can’t claim back all the money wasted on promoting and discussing it, along with all the other money squandered by National on dud projects.
    Can’t help pondering on how much we could do for “everyday” “mums and dads” “average” NZers if we had good economic governance in NZ.
    Still, what to expect when we instead elect of this bunch of swankey, golf playing money trader “businessmen”.

  5. Bill 5

    Free trade is a good thing…

    Is it?

    I’ve sat for a wee while trying to think of a single free trade scenario that could be categorised as good. I mean, when we say ‘free trade’, we’re not talking about an opposite to some denial of the right to trade. We’re talking about a very specific framework that ensures the stronger trading partner always benefits while weaker trading partner always suffers disadvantage.

    The only time free trade could possibly work is when each trading partner has a unique capacity that can never be replicated by any other trading partner. This was the basic argument used for structural adjustment programmes that were imposed on developing countries through-out the 80s and 90s.

    Ghana could grow coffee and Finland could make phones and everyone would trade and everyone would benefit. But then Cote d’Ivoire began growing coffee and Japan thought it could emulate Finland and pretty soon everyone was doing what everyone else was doing and a great rush to the bottom (in terms of wages and conditions) ensued.

    Go further back in time and free trade was demanded by the British rather than the US, because Britain was the strongest trading nation. So (as pointed out on Open Mike) Indian weavers had their thumbs cut off to ensure the cotton India produced was exported to Britain to be made into finished goods. And rice was replaced with poppies because the British demands around free trade (this time backed by gun ships) allowed opium profits to flow from China. And if Indians starved as a result – and they did – well hey…free trade is good.

    I don’t think free trade has ever been a good thing and never can be a good thing. It’s a license for the stronger or better positioned to screw over the weaker or less well positioned – always.

    • maninthemiddle 5.1

      Trade liberalism is largely responsible for liberating previously poor nations, and for providing countries such as NZ with a wide range of affordable goods and services. Trade has dramatically reduced the cost of goods and services to NZ’ers, has opened up a raft of new job opportunities, and given NZ a standard of living considerably higher than we enjoyed 20-30 years ago.

      • Bill 5.1.1

        That would be “liberalising” poor nations, not “liberating”. And what did that do?

        Oh yeah, it impoverished them and locked them into disastrous paths of development. And sure, as everyone raced to the bottom, NZers got cheaper, shoddier goods to go with their lower wages and lower job security.

        I guess you could say that “opened a raft of new job opportunities”, but I wouldn’t. And as for the higher standard of living, well I guess that depends how you want to measure that. I mean, you might say that things are better because homeless people can sleep in cars that are generally more comfortable than the cars of 30 years ago. Bit of a stretch to suggest, as you do, that such a state of affairs is being “enjoyed” though – don’t you think?

        • maninthemiddle 5.1.1.1

          “Oh yeah, it impoverished them…”

          Nope. http://fusion.net/story/306404/global-poverty-rates-plummeting/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=fivethirtyeight.

          “I guess you could say that “opened a raft of new job opportunities”, but I wouldn’t.”

          Well you’d be wrong. NZ employs more people today than ever before. Trade has opened up a raft of new careers, as new industries have sprung up to support global trade avenues.

          “I mean, you might say that things are better because homeless people can sleep in cars that are generally more comfortable than the cars of 30 years ago. ”

          Far more comfortable, if that’s where they choose to sleep.

          • Macro 5.1.1.1.1

            ” NZ employs more people for one hour each week today than ever before.”

            FIFY

            from the Labour Market Statistics

            The unemployment rate increased to 5.7 percent, from a revised rate of 5.4 percent last quarter.

            Your shoddy use of statistics shows you to be the most blatant lying prick to ever comment on this site – and I’ve seen a few in my time.

            • maninthemiddle 5.1.1.1.1.1

              ” NZ employs more people for one hour each week today than ever before.”

              You have no idea whether that is the case. None.

              • Macro

                It was your quote nincompoop! I merely altered it to be more truthful than the statement you supplied. You are aware that the Dept of Statistics now includes those who work only 1 hour a week as “employed”? Many young people are now in that category of working only a few hours each week. These are those 370,000 people who earn between $0 and $5000 per annum.

                • maninthemiddle

                  Yes I know it was my quote. My response was to challenge you to prove that the number working 1 hour only is significant. ‘Many’ doesn’t cut it.

                  • Macro

                    Gezz so you are saying here that around 370,000 people are working multiple hours to earn less that $5,000! Now I wasn’t aware of that – and if you say that is not “many” well I guess it is only around 7.5% of the total population.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Gezz so you are saying here that around 370,000 people are working multiple hours to earn less that $5,000! ”

                      Nope. Read for comprehension. I’m saying your suggestion that everyone employed is only working 1 hour per week is bs. You’re obsessed with trying to explain away the reality that unemployment is dropping and employment rising. You’re failing.

      • save nz 5.1.2

        Keep telling yourself those ‘free trade’ myths, maninthemiddle…

        Really helped Equador for example, sarc.

        Document Reveals EU Bullied Ecuador Into Trade Agreement

        http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Document-Reveals-EU-Bullied-Ecuador-Into-Trade-Agreement-20141009-0050.html

        A slippery decision: Chevron oil pollution in Ecuador

        http://www.dw.com/en/a-slippery-decision-chevron-oil-pollution-in-ecuador/a-18697563

      • framu 5.1.3

        “Trade liberalism is largely responsible for liberating previously poor nations,”

        no – PARTLY responsible

        most honest commentators will also point out that you also need a strong focus on other areas at the same time for it to actually reduce poverty

        • maninthemiddle 5.1.3.1

          Largely, partly, there’s no difference. But I agree with your last sentence.

      • mosa 5.1.4

        Yeah and swamped the country with cheap chinese crap including faulty steel for construction too kill and maim us and fill our landfills up with 5 minute lasting inferior goods.
        These so called jobs have been lost in manufacturing with the advent of trade with China which NZ was warned would happen but we stumbled on regardless.
        Its made most retail companies like Briscoes, the Warehouse ,Mitre 10, K mart Rebel sport and others massively rich while their employees are paid a pittance but created those “new job opportunites” you talk about.
        Just as well the pay is low though we can pay for all those “affordable goods and services” you refer too.
        All thats happened is NZ is now joined the ranks of those poor nations you talk about thanks to these policies which have done nothing except enslave most of this country economically and help us too lift our top 10% too even greater wealth than could have dreamed of.
        Its scary on the back of all that you and others like you think thats progress and are still pushing that mindset.

    • Sacha 5.2

      TPP is not a free trade deal.

    • idbkiwi 5.3

      “Indian weavers had their thumbs cut off”

      That would be a myth, based on a metaphor. The British East India Company did not physically cut off thumbs, they copped blame for a terrible recession in the hand-loom weaving industry in India circa 1810-1850 which left entire families destitute, forced to turn to agriculture for survival, a calling for which they had neither aptitude or experience. Thus Ghandi illustrates the allegation by saying the BEIC “compelled them to cut off their thumbs” ie: move to another occupation at severe disadvantage. Ghandi also made the observation that the linen-mill owners “would draw the noose tight round the neck of the handloom weavers”, this does not mean that the hand-loom weavers were hanged or strangled en masse, but that their prices were undermined by the sneaky industrialists with power-looms and massive output of finished product which they readily exploited when necessary to eliminate rivals, just as today when moguls price their products according to local consumption and competition; think Microsoft, McDonalds or Shell. The power-looms also destroyed the hand-loom weaving industry of Britain itself which was thriving in 1800, in deep recession by 1840 and had almost totally disappeared by 1880, they too “had their thumbs cut off”. Put another way, many saw it as a situation ripe for the “stronger or better positioned to screw over the weaker or less well positioned”.

      http://www.mkgandhi.org/bahurupi/chap13.htm

    • Gareth 5.4

      Free trade in goods can be good for countries even where they are at a disadvantage as long as they concentrate on goods where they are at less of a disadvantage. This guy explains it quite well on p10-12: http://economixcomix.com/home/tpp/

      But, as he also points out in that comic, this assumes the trade is only in goods. Once your trade deal is freeing up movement of capital, it’s a whole different ball game, and one that is generally bad for the weaker side.

    • Fantastic capture of the very essence of the problem. hahaha well said that man.
      If through the machinations of the US elections we somehow fluke the TTPA being withdrawn…we still need to combat alternative trade agreements of similar ilk. Most of us will start to relax and bask in the glory of not being shit scared. Are we ripe for the plucking then? (wish I wasn’t so cynical)
      Another thing is conglomerates rarely add value to a resource. Just look at Fonterra. I believe a raw organic milk full of cream goodness is due to be discovered again by the average Joe. I bet the striped down for parts milk Fonterra ‘produces’ won’t be in that category. At present the natural product is hard to purchase from anywhere except the dairy farm gate. yet the millions of dollars sucked off by the suits in poor forsight is seen as appropriate in getting milk powder to China? Dumb…we should be down sizing our dairy industry and planting deciduous trees for timber and food crops between the trees. (enough) .

  6. vto 6

    Why don’t we just trade within our own New Zealand borders ….

    no different to trading within our own World borders ….

    if you think about it

    properly

    • dukeofurl 6.1

      Thats good , we can take you off the list for life saving IMPORTED drugs, or those life saving scans from IMPORTED high tech equipment.

      When you think about it, it has to be the crazy idea of the month award.

      • maninthemiddle 6.1.1

        Agreed.

        • Chuck 6.1.1.1

          Now come on dukeofurl and maninthemiddle be fair…

          You forget that vto and most here look up to North Korea as a role model for what could be achieved in NZ.

          • maninthemiddle 6.1.1.1.1

            Oh, I see. Thanks for that. Another Gareth Morgan?

          • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.1.2

            That isn’t how you spell Scandinavia, you dull tiresome boring indolent dishonest troll.

            • Chuck 6.1.1.1.2.1

              Scandinavia it is then OAB…Bernie Sanders utopia!

              In this particular thread OAB its not a good example to bring up.

              Scandinavia or the Nordic Model is all about free trade.

              So yeah back to North Korea for you!

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                most here look up to North Korea as a role model

                In this particular thread you parroted a tiresome lie, authored by someone else, like the boring unoriginal dishonest troll I described.

                • Liberal Realist

                  +1 Seems like Chuck has his head firmly planted in the sand. What’s next, Reds under Beds subversion? Back to the 1950’s McCarthyite paradise for you Chuck. Or possibly Clintonite ‘New-McCarthyism’ of 2016?

                  This silly notion that because you’re a lefty that makes you a dictatorial communist is laughable. I’d suggest that Chuck dig his head out of that sand and do some reading about the difference between dictatorial communism and liberal social democracy!

      • Lloyd 6.1.2

        If NZ drug manufacturers weren’t handicapped by trade agreements we could probably manufacture duplicate copies of most of those imported drugs and probably considerably cheaper than the exorbitant cost charged by the mainly US “ethical” manufacturers.
        We used to manufacture a wide range of drugs for treating animals, but foreign business bought out this industry and closed it down.
        The scanning equipment might be a little more difficult.

      • weka 6.1.3

        I think vto’s suggestion is about basing our economy on local trade (and as pointed out below, NZ could be manufacturing many of its essentials). That doesn’t preclude trading abroad for neccessities, it just means we have choices rather than being locked into globalisation via pseudo free trade agreements. And that we’re not at the mercy of the banksters.

  7. dave 7

    oh dear john key really has nothing to show for 9 years it truly is a lost decade

  8. maninthemiddle 8

    The TPP will be signed, with or without the US.

    • Stuart Munro 8.1

      Yup – whether or not it benefits NZ too. There is no cure for the kind of stupid this ‘government’ has.

      • maninthemiddle 8.1.1

        There are benefits to NZ with or without the US.

        • Leftie 8.1.1.1

          What are the benefits Maninthemiddle? because it has already been established there is very little benefit to New Zealand. No perceived trade deal should require that we as a country, lose our sovereignty. That is NOT a trade deal.

          • maninthemiddle 8.1.1.1.1

            We don’t lose our sovereignty. The TPP is a trade deal. If we don’t benefit, we can pull out.

            • Macro 8.1.1.1.1.1

              The TPP has nothing to do with trade – It never was and it never will be. It is all about protecting multinationals when they decide to rip off the citizens of some country.

              • maninthemiddle

                Sigh. Quote of tin foil hats used up today.

                • Liberal Realist

                  Ad Hominem much? Guess you’ve got no retort so you whip out the old ‘tinfoil’ hat line. Weak.

                  • Macro

                    The man from the far right has very little logic skills, if any.
                    I try to point our his errors in fact when I can be bothered – but frankly most of his comments are not worth the effort.

                  • maninthemiddle

                    Well when someone labels a trade agreement ‘nothing to do with trade’ they deserve all the derision they get.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                The TPP (current version) imposes too many restraints on trade. It may be that minus the toxic influence of the bought US government a good deal can be hammered out by the remaining parties.

              • plumington

                Yes and multinationals donate to the cLinton foundation and Hillary Clinton has been a compulsive liar I don’t think this deal is over yet many powerful corporates don’t want to loose money and Clinton is there guy

                • Macro

                  Yes sadly I think that She will be all about “renegotiating” and as Parsupial noted at 2.2 above

                  “The answer is to finally make trade work for us, not against us.

                  “So my message to every worker in Michigan and across America is this: I will stop any trade deal that kills jobs or holds down wages, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership.”…

                  Ms Clinton had also previously supported the North American Free Trade Agreement, which was signed by former President Bill Clinton, her husband, and which Trump routinely disparages as bad for American jobs. Ms Clinton now says she would renegotiate it.

                  That renegotiation will all be about a better deal deal for the USA and that means a worse deal for everyone else.

            • Gabby 8.1.1.1.1.2

              What benefits?

        • Stuart Munro 8.1.1.2

          But you don’t know what they are.

          You have a latelife erotic crush on John Key and anything he says is fine by you.

          • maninthemiddle 8.1.1.2.1

            Of course I know what they are. Look at the MFat or TradeWorks websites. Stop reading crap from people like Kelsey.

            • Stuart Munro 8.1.1.2.1.1

              I’ve read it you plonker – had to to make my submission. It sucks. MBIE weren’t even up to presenting a SWAT analysis of it – demonstrating once again the typical level of Gnat incompetence.

              • maninthemiddle

                MBIE are a government department. Civil servants. They are not the National Party, the Labour Party or any other Party.

                The TPP is a trade agreement. NZ is a trading nation. Trade is good. Without it, we would be broke.

                • Stuart Munro

                  Suppositions – the intellectual property parts are a real upfront cost set to exceed the projected returns from agricultural market access.

                  MBIE contracted it out, as you’d know if you’d read it 😉

                  • maninthemiddle

                    It is MBIE’s report. The IP sections of the TPP are not that concerning.

                    At the end of the day we can pull out if we want, so mention of threats to our sovereignty are utter bs.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Nothing for us till 2030 – and the ‘us’ is foreign owned crap like Silver Fern Farms. But the copyright cost is up front.

                      Gnats don’t do prudent of course, that’s why they always project but never deliver a surplus.

                      A very bad deal – as you tend to get from unequal trade treaties. NZ Korea made more sense – very different product mixes.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Nothing for us till 2030”

                      Who told you that?

                    • Stuart Munro

                      And the dateline for agricultural market access is?

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “And the dateline for agricultural market access is?”

                      Immediately on the TPP coming into force.

                      “Japan – NZ’s trade in high protein products will be duty free at entry into force. After 16 years, almost all NZ’s cheese trade will be duty free.”

                      “US – NZ’s trade in protein products will be duty free at entry into force. In addition, all tariffs will be removed at entry into force on NZ dairy products traded under WTO quotas”

                      NZ will have unrestricted beef access to the US after 5 years.

                      There’s much more too. https://www.tpp.mfat.govt.nz/sector-outcomes

                      Where did you get the 2030 date from? Again I say, don;t believe anything you read from Kelsey.

                    • Leftie

                      Stuart Munro is referring to the governments own website that states only the full benefit of TPP is estimated to be at least $2.7 billion a year extra in New Zealand’s GDP by 2030.

                      In others words, the TPPA has no real benefits for New Zealand in the the short and/or long term.

                      John key has signed away this country’s sovereignty for nothing.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Stuart Munro is referring to the governments own website that states only the full benefit of TPP is estimated to be at least $2.7 billion a year extra in New Zealand’s GDP by 2030.”
                      No, Stuart said, categorically, there will be ‘nothing’ for us before 2030. Stuart has form with bs.

                      “In others words, the TPPA has no real benefits for New Zealand in the the short and/or long term.”
                      Rubbish. Read my post below in response to Stuart’s question about agriculture. The 2030 date is a reference point only.

                      “John key has signed away this country’s sovereignty for nothing.”
                      NZ has not lost any sovereignty. We are free to leave any time we like.

                    • Leftie

                      Stuart Munro is right there is nothing for us before 2030, take notice of the wording Maninthemiddle, even the known fudgers of figures and facts the National government, know there’s nothing in it for New Zealand. The TPPA is a sell out for American corporate control, and if it dies, then our sovereignty remains intact, but until then what John key has signed us up to, including the unknown fish hooks, makes it not easy to walk away from. The fact that the full text will not become public until 4 years AFTER it is ratified should scare the beejeebies out of everyone, including right wing nuts like yourself. You certainly don’t give a shit about this country or it’s future by supporting the TPPA.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Stuart Munro is right there is nothing for us before 2030,”

                      Are you saying that substantial benefits to NZ agricultural exporters by the reduction of duties and tarifs is ‘nothing’? Are you serious? Do you know anything about business, or are you just trolling?

                    • Leftie

                      Lol that’s rich you accusing someone else of trolling Maninthemiddle.

                • Sacha

                  TPP is an investment regulation agreement. Not much of it even mentions trade and certainly not ‘free’. It is not like the actual FTAs this nation has negotiated.

                  • maninthemiddle

                    “Not much of it even mentions trade…”

                    More Kelsey bs.

                    “The Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) is a trade agreement that New Zealand is negotiating with eleven countries: Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Peru, Malaysia, Mexico, Singapore, Vietnam and the United States.” http://fairdeal.net.nz/

                    “ESTABLISH a comprehensive regional agreement that promotes
                    economic integration to liberalise trade and investment, bring economic growth and social benefits, create new opportunities for workers and businesses, contribute to raising living standards, benefit consumers, reduce poverty and promote sustainable growth;”
                    https://www.mfat.govt.nz/assets/_securedfiles/Trans-Pacific-Partnership/Text/0.-Preamble.pdf

                    Have you even read a summary of the thing? Here…read the text before you embarrass yourself any more:

                    https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/about-us/who-we-are/treaty-making-process/trans-pacific-partnership-tpp/text-of-the-trans-pacific-partnership

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Perhaps you should read those links MiM – you don’t seem to be familiar with the content.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Perhaps you should read those links MiM”

                      I have. I posted them. I even used a link that is critical of the TPP. All mention trade. The actual text of the agreement is full of discussion on trade. That;s why I posted the links.

                    • Leftie

                      Stuart Munro is right, you don’t have a clue Maninthemiddle, and Professor Jane Kelsey is correct in what she says, you on the other hand, are not.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Stuart Munro is right, you don’t have a clue Maninthemiddle, and Professor Jane Kelsey is correct in what she says, you on the other hand, are not.”

                      Stuart Munro claimed there was nothing in the TPP for NZ until 2030. That was bs.

                      Stuart Munro didn’t even know there were immediate agricultural benefits.

                      Jane Kelsey is an ivory tower academic, She has no practical knowledge of trade. When I want to assess whether or not to undergo an operation, I’ll consult someone who has experience, not an academic who’s never had or performed the operation.

                    • Leftie

                      You the one full of BS Maninthmiddle, and your analogy if one can call it that, doesn’t even make sense, so you are ignoring what the govt own website says? There is no immediate benefit. As Stuart Munro says “Perhaps you should read those links MiM – you don’t seem to be familiar with the content.”

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “there is no immediate benefit.”
                      Do you not understand what tariff reductions mean? I can explain if you want.

                      “As Stuart Munro says “Perhaps you should read those links MiM – you don’t seem to be familiar with the content.””
                      I am. But perhaps you are confused. They related to the comment by Sacha “Not much of it even mentions trade…”. The TPP wording is full of references to trade.

                      Look, I’m happy to keep schooling you on the TPP, but seriously, do some reading. You’re looking like an idiot.

                    • Leftie

                      Sacha and Stuart Munro are correct, it’s you who is wrong, and maybe you should follow your own advice and get reading.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      The claimed benefits of tariff reduction do not necessarily accrue to slow-moving and essentially uncompetitive dairy conglomerates like Fonterra – they are just as likely to fill the pockets of large Japanese retailers.

                      But the whole point of including the US in the TPP – which was abnormally stupid even by the standards of this corrupt and backward government – was to secure dairy access to the US market. Don’t pretend it wasn’t.

                      Japan is a second rate deal – the more so because Oz outmanouvered the stupid and backward NZ negotiator and cut a separate deal a year earlier.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Sacha and Stuart Munro are correct,”

                      No. Stuart in particular has made claims that are demonstrably wrong. I have demonstrated clearly there are benefits to NZ pre 2030. If you don’t have the intellect to grasp the evidence, that isn’t my problem.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “The claimed benefits of tariff reduction do not necessarily accrue to slow-moving and essentially uncompetitive dairy conglomerates like Fonterra – they are just as likely to fill the pockets of large Japanese retailers.”

                      Oh, so having not realised the tariff reductions kicked in immediately, you now run from that discussion.

                      Fact 1. You claimed there were NO benefits to NZ before 2030. You were wrong.
                      Fact 2. You suggested there was a delay in the introduction of benefits to NZ agriculture. You were wrong.

                      Having been shown up n both counts, rather than at least having the courage to admit it, you lie about the US involvement.

                      Pathetic.

                  • Leftie

                    +1 Sacha.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.3

          There’s no benefits to NZ but there are huge costs. But that’s been true of all the neo-liberal BS of the last thirty years. Lost of costs, no benefits.

          • maninthemiddle 8.1.1.3.1

            More kelsey inspired bs. Think for yourself Draco.

            • Leftie 8.1.1.3.1.1

              That’s rich Maninthemiddle, all you are doing is spouting National’s bullshit. Professor Jane Kelsey has NOT been proved wrong. National have though.

              • maninthemiddle

                Can you quote me anything about the TPP on which Kelsey has been CORRECT?

                • Leftie

                  Everything, and she hasn’t been proved wrong.

                  • maninthemiddle

                    The point is, she hasn’t been proven right. She has made all sorts of claims and predictions, yet the sun still shines.

                    • Leftie

                      Well she has been proved right, and she has never been proved wrong, particularly by the resourceful National government.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Well she has been proved right,”

                      I asked for an example. I’m still waiting.

                • Gangnam Style

                  “When I want to assess whether or not to undergo an operation, I’ll consult someone who has experience, not an academic who’s never had or performed the operation.” Yet you support charter schools?

                  • maninthemiddle

                    Yes. And Partnership Schools. Because there is sound evidence they work, from people who know what they’re talking about.

                    • Leftie

                      Are you referring to the business people who run charter schools that profit from public money? There is sound evidence from around the world that shows charter schools don’t work.

                      Sweden issued a public apology in a Swedish daily “Forgive us, our policy led our schools astray”

                      Insight: Sweden rethinks pioneering school reforms, private equity under fire

                      <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-schools-insight-idUSBRE9B905620131210

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Are you referring to the business people who run charter schools that profit from public money?”
                      Partnership Schools are virtually all not-for-profit. This ‘rich prick’ attitude will blind you to all reality.

                      “There is sound evidence from around the world that shows charter schools don’t work.”
                      No, not really. Charter/Partnership Schools are not for everyone, but they have their place. They provide choice, and, as my Manurewa examples show, are outperforming state schools. The unions are livid!!

    • Leftie 8.2

      Can’t be Maninthemiddle. It just takes one of the big 6, (which the US belongs to and that NZ doesn’t), to not ratify the TPPA, then the deal is dead and gone.

    • Andre 8.3

      It’s already been signed. But it doesn’t go into force until it’s it’s ratified by enough nations to make up 85% of the GDP of the signatories. Which means Japan and the USA have to ratify before it can come into force.

      • Leftie 8.3.1

        And all it will take is just one not to ratify it and the TPPA is history.

      • McFlock 8.3.2

        when has reality ever gotten in the way of mitm? lol

        • Andre 8.3.2.1

          To be fair, he’s told us he sets his rents to meet the market, with a discount for long term good tenants. That particular point seems pretty reality-based to me.

          • McFlock 8.3.2.1.1

            Assuming he even owns property and wasn’t just pulling the “don’t blame us responsible ones” in a discussion about landlords, lol

      • maninthemiddle 8.3.3

        Hi Leftie, Andrew

        1. I don’t believe anything Hilary or Donald say. My suspicion is that, in power, they will bow to pressure and sign, rather than let China get a greater trade foothold in the Pacific.
        2. While technically you are correct, in reality it would be a simple matter to conclude an agreement without the US. As far as I’m aware, these discussions are already underway.

        • Andre 8.3.3.1

          Yeah, I’ve spent a lot of time worrying that Hillary would flip and ratify it once she’s in the White House. But I’m coming round to thinking she will probably think her political future is best served not to. With Trump, who the fuck knows what he’ll do?

          • maninthemiddle 8.3.3.1.1

            Hillary is a dangerous individual, the worst kind of combination of the worst kind of attributes. I don’t rate Donald any better or worse. Most americans I know are bewildered at how a country that leads the world in so many ways could come up with two plonkers for this election.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 8.3.3.1.1.1

              It’s very very simple: their right wingers are just like you.

            • Andre 8.3.3.1.1.2

              I’m dual US/NZ, and I’ve spent enough of my adult life in the US that I’m just disappointed, not bewildered, that the choice is another Clinton vs Trump. While there’s a long list of people I’d prefer to Hillary (starting with Warren then Sanders, and even including a few Republicans), I saw enough of her in the 90s that I’m confident she’ll be a lot better at doing the job than she is at selling herself as the best person for the job. Furthermore, as president the pressures and motivations are different than they are as Secretary of State so I think there’s a good chance her foreign policy won’t be as reckless and aggressive as her record suggests.

              • maninthemiddle

                Andre, I do hope you’re right. I have no ‘skin’ in this game. I have lived through favourable democratic and republican presidents and unfavourable ones. My concern with Hillary is her outright dishonesty. Her behaviour over Banghazi was nothing short of disgraceful, then her poor judgement with the email server and subsequent attempts to cover up the seriousness of the situation were not behaviours to engender confidence. Then again, we have Donald…..

                sigh.

          • dukeofurl 8.3.3.1.2

            Do you even have any idea of how it works from here for TPA in US.

            “worrying that Hillary would flip and ratify it once she’s in the White House”

            The President cant ‘ratify it’, otherwise Obama would have done so.

            Only Congress can ‘ratify’ and its a yes or No option.

            Sleep easy , but Im sure youll have some another nightmare you can dream up

            • Andre 8.3.3.1.2.1

              Yeah I do know. The President signing off is the final step of ratification after the Senate approves it. But the president doesn’t have to ratify just because the Senate approves it. The House isn’t a part of the process unless there’s legislation changes needed (which there are for the TPPA). Yes, I’m aware of the stuff around Trade Promotion Authorities and up-or-down votes.

              But the nub of the matter is if the president wants the treaty, he/she will push the process along and will fairly likely get it to a vote and likely approval. But if the president is opposed, the treaty dies.

              So I’m trying to keep comments short and readable instead of being long-winded including all the detail.

              And do I score any Pedant Points for pointing out that “Congress” usually refers to the House and Senate together, so strictly speaking Congress does not play a part in treaty ratification, only the Senate is involved?

        • Leftie 8.3.3.2

          The US is firmly entrenched in the TPPA, if they don’t ratify it it’s dead, so what new deal are you referring to Maninthemiddle?

          • maninthemiddle 8.3.3.2.1

            “…if they don’t ratify it it’s dead…”

            You’re stating that as mantra. It is entirely possible the TPP could emerge as a Pacific rim trade deal involving all other nations in it.

            • Stuart Munro 8.3.3.2.1.1

              The Kaiju would never go for it.

            • Leftie 8.3.3.2.1.2

              No I am not, I am stating it as a fact. You said “As far as I’m aware, these discussions are already underway” then you are talking about an entirely new deal that is not the TPPA, so what is this new deal you are referring to Maninthemiddle?

              • maninthemiddle

                “I am stating it as a fact.”

                It’s not a fact. A TPP can be put together in many forms, not just the current one.

                “so what is this new deal you are referring to Maninthemiddle?”

                What deal? I never mentioned any ‘deal’, I mentioned discussions. Here’s a ‘discussion’ about China stepping in to work on precisely such a deal.
                http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/4/without-trans-pacific-partnership-us-hands-over-po/

                Do you seriously suppose such ‘discussions’ are NOT underway?

                • Leftie

                  “It just takes one of the big 6, (which the US belongs to and that NZ doesn’t), to not ratify the TPPA, then the deal is dead and gone.”

                  “The US is firmly entrenched in the TPPA, if they don’t ratify it it’s dead” IS stating a fact.
                  Do you ever read the links you post Maninthemiddle?
                  so what you are referring to is another deal under “discussion” not the TPPA.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.4

      Actually, it’s already signed but it’s not binding unless 85% of the signatories ratify it. If the US doesn’t ratify it then it doesn’t get the 85% needed to make it binding.

      • maninthemiddle 8.4.1

        …and then the remaining nations go off and do a deal without the US.

        • Leftie 8.4.1.1

          If that happened, that would be a new deal, not the TPPA.

          • maninthemiddle 8.4.1.1.1

            It would be a TPP minus the US.

            • Leftie 8.4.1.1.1.1

              No, it wouldn’t. And you don’t honestly think the USA would really allow every other country make deals that excludes them, would you?

            • Leftie 8.4.1.1.1.2

              No, it wouldn’t. And you don’t honestly think the USA would really allow every other country make deals that excludes them, would you?

              • maninthemiddle

                ‘Every other country’? Other countries make trade deals all the time without the US.

                • Leftie

                  Not like the TPPA. And not when America wants to have control over the Pacific region.

                  • maninthemiddle

                    “Not like the TPPA.”
                    How about the EEC? No US there. MERCOSUR? No US. ASEAN. There are many more.

                    “And not when America wants to have control over the Pacific region.”
                    And that’s where we agree, my friend. Because I suspect, as I said earlier, that Hillary or Donald will swallow a rat and ratify the TPP, rather than let China initiate a new TPP.

    • Paul 8.5

      DNFTT

  9. Cinny 9

    Enjoying very much how the TPPA is dying, but it’s not dead yet. The following still remains a concern in the back of ones sometimes twisted mind.

    What if Trump doesn’t want to lose, he stands down, then either the newcomer republican candidate is pro tpp or Obama stays in office for a little bit long and gets the tpp over the line? I don’t trust Hillary one little bit either.

    Sometimes collective trade agreements end up in pacts between countries during times of conflict. I’m not down with that one little bit, too much tension between USA & China/North Korea at the moment.

    TPPA GO AWAY

    • Andre 9.1

      Imagine Trump wins, and he really was in it just for the thrill of the chase and can’t be arsed actually being prez, so he resigns. Then Pence becomes president and Paul Ryan becomes vice-president. Two of the biggest TPP backers out there.

      Sorry if the thought of that scenario disturbs your sleep.

      • Cinny 9.1.1

        Shudders… dang…. NOOOOOOOO.. however anything is possible, and i thought my imagination was twisted. Double dang 😀

        • Sacha 9.1.1.1

          There’s this incoming asteroid and despite everything Bruce Willis and Will Smith try, it wipes out the eastern seaboard. Trump assumes power from his Nevada lair, and the rest is hystory.

      • dukeofurl 9.1.2

        “Then Pence becomes president and Paul Ryan becomes vice-president. Two of the biggest TPP backers out there.”

        Why does that matter, as the President doesnt ratify, only congress. The US already has a President totally behind TPA, its Obama.
        Your reasoning is totally unsound

        • Andre 9.1.2.1

          If the Trump campaign manages to turn it around enough that Trump wins, then there’s a good chance the Senate will stay Republican-controlled.

          Since the Republicans are much more in favour of the TPPA than Democrats, a Republican controlled Senate with a pro-TPPA president is fairly likely to get it through.

          It seems a major reason the TPPA hasn’t already been approved by the Senate and ratified by Obama is just the Republican hostility to Obama. Plus opposition from some Democrats to the substance of the TPPA.

          • dukeofurl 9.1.2.1.1

            The house and senate are GOP controlled now, if they can pass now why wait till after the election for a GOP controlled Congress with a TPA friendly president.
            They have ALL that now.
            Stop with the fiction that Obama will at some stage ‘ratify’ the agreement. Thats been done when they had the global sign off in Auckland, if you remember.

            Were you awake then.

            • Andre 9.1.2.1.1.1

              The signing that happened here in Auckland was essentially Obama’s representative (Froman?) making the commitment that Obama and his administration will make all best-faith efforts to get the agreement passed through the other branches of government.

              What they have right now is a TPP friendly president, a GOP controlled Senate and House with a significant number of GOP members that are so unhinged with Obama-hatred that they won’t do anything that Obama could spin as a win, even when it aligns with their interests. And a minority of Democratic members in both chambers mostly opposed to the TPP whose opposition has grown stronger over the past few months.

              So while there’s no doubt Obama would do the final sign-off (technically ratification) ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification ) when it hit his desk, it’s unclear whether the current Senate will in fact vote yes or no for the actual agreement, or whether the House and Senate will both pass the enabling legislation, if these were put to the vote now. But it certainly looks like Obama is going to try hard to get it through while he can http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/obama-congress-trade-warning-226952

              I’ve got no idea where it would leave things if the Senate voted yes to their bits, and the House voted no. The whole dynamic of who will vote for what will change significantly next year with a new president and new congress, even if it’s still a Democratic president with the GOP in control of both houses. For starters, Hillary will get a bit of a honeymoon with the Dems, and who knows how the future Hillary-hatred will balance against the current Obama-hatred.

  10. Draco T Bastard 10

    Free trade is a good thing

    You only get free-trade when the standards on both sides are the same. If they’re not then what you have is trade that’s effectively biased in favour of one party over the other. The FTAs that we’ve been signing actually entrench the biases already in place. Far better to set those standards for ourselves and then trade with those that meet those standards.

    • miravox 10.1

      You only get free-trade when the standards on both sides are the same.
      +1

      Listing those standards show where most so-called free trade agreements fall down.
      I’m thinking environment, health & safety and employment rights in particular. Although NZ seems pretty keen on levelling the playing field at the lowest level possible.

  11. Tautoko Mangō Mata 11

    So who wrote the TPP?

    “Political scientists Todd Allee and Andrew Lugg have a new article showing that the TPP is textually more like U.S. FTAs than it is like the FTAs of other TPP parties:”

    The six most-copied chapters in the TPP (investment, financial services, general services, telecommunications, and safeguards) draw particularly heavily upon past US agreement language. This includes some TPP chapters in which two-thirds or more of an earlier US PTA chapter is copied verbatim. …

    Indeed, more than 80% of seven US investment chapters are copied verbatim into the TPP’s investment chapter, as shown in the right side of Figure 4. One of the text illustrations in the Appendix, on minimum standards of treatment for investment, also shows this dominance. Furthermore, the amount of text being copied is significant: more than 7500 words from past US investment chapters are written directly into the TPP’s investment chapter – a final piece of evidence that the US “got what it wanted” in this controversial area to an extent even greater than is realized.

    http://worldtradelaw.typepad.com/ielpblog/2016/08/who-wrote-the-rules-of-the-tpp.html
    I cannot understand why Phil Goff persists in supporting an agreement which obviously bears little resemblance to the one that was being negotiated before the USA decided to join and write its corporate wishlist..

  12. Andre 12

    Sigh. Looks like Obama is going to try giving the TPP a bit of CPR.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/obama-congress-trade-warning-226952

  13. framu 13

    maybe we should DNFTT?

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    A list of indicators of bad science – many of these are found in articles promoted by anti-fluoride activists. Anti-fluoride activists have been pouring money into a scaremongering campaign warning pregnant women not to drink fluoridated water. They claim fluoride will lower the IQ of their future child. Fluoride ...
    4 days ago
  • Losing Labour’s Mills-Tone.
    Nothing Left To Say: Labour's pollster, Stephen Mills, remains swaddled-up in the comforting myths of the 1980s. As if the experience of Roger Douglas’s genuinely radical post-Muldoon policy agenda was literally a once-in-a-lifetime thing – as much as the party could possibly absorb for at least the next 50 years.MEMO ...
    4 days ago
  • Speaker: Disability and the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse
    The Royal Commission on abuse in care is very significant for the disability community. For many decades last century, thousands of disabled children, and adults who managed to survive, were locked away from families and communities. This was not for anything they had done, but for the perceived threat their ...
    4 days ago
  • Spain is not a democracy
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • UK Conservatives hate democracy
    With an unfair voting system, uneven electorates and an un-elected upper house, the UK's "democracy" is barely worthy of the name. But now the government wants to make it worse:The government has been accused of suppressing voters’ rights with the potential disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of people after plans ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • What is wrong with our building industry?
    Back in the 90's and early 2000's, the building industry was building leaky homes which should never have been granted consent. Now it turns out they've been building dodgy office blocks as well:New imaging technology has revealed hundreds of major buildings nationwide have defective or missing concrete or reinforcing steel. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Local bodies
    Local body election results were released over the weekend, to joy or despair depending on where you live. In Auckland, Phil Goff trounced John Tamihere, who is muttering darkly about running for Parliament again (but which party would want him?) Wellington is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Weta Workshop, except ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • A future of government
      How could government evolve over the next decades? Reports of democracy’s imminent demise are greatly exaggerated.  However, satisfaction with political systems in many countries is low, so there is much to do for governments of all political stripes to improve relevance and trust. Digital technologies are seen as one ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    7 days ago
  • Speaker: Catalonia, interrupted
    Two years have now gone by since the Friday afternoon when my university-student son and I headed out of our Barcelona flat to a nearby primary school, designated as a polling station for the vote that was to be held the following Sunday: the referendum on Catalonia’s independence from Spain ...
    7 days ago
  • Sage Decisions Unwisely Over-Ruled.
    Overruled: The joint decision of Finance Minister, Grant Robertson (Labour) and his Associate Minister, David Parker (Labour) arguably the two most powerful ministers in Jacinda Ardern’s government, to grant OceanaGold the consents which Land Information Minister, Eugenie Sage (Greens) had earlier denied them, offers bitter proof of how hard fighting ...
    7 days ago
  • Government may ban voting in effort to get more people to do it
    More than double the number of people who will vote in this year’s local body elections have tried marijuana or urinated somewhere they shouldn’t have. As local elections look set for the lowest turnout in decades, with many regions falling well short of 40%, the Government is exploring a number ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Woman: Deleted.
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The Hollowest of Men Ride Again… SURPRISE!
    Musings continue apace about “the experienced businessman!” soon to be taking up a National Party MP position. Or to be more accurate, being parachuted into a seat to shut down their former MP Jamie-Lee Ross, who despite his own shortcomings shed at least some more light on the inner workings ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    1 week ago
  • Barbaric
    The Ugandan government wants to murder gay people:Uganda has announced plans to impose the death penalty on homosexuals. The bill, colloquially known as “Kill the Gays” in Uganda, was nullified five years ago on a technicality, but the government said on Thursday it plans to resurrect it within weeks. The ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Fighting Monsters.
    Freedom Of Speech? The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Nazi Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. According to the logic of the ...
    1 week ago
  • The next wave of kaupapa Māori politics: its constitutional, it must be.
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    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Night lights of NZ from orbit
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    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 week ago
  • Reporters deliver uplifting news to fleeing Japanese residents: they won’t miss any rugby
    New Zealand’s media is doing its part in Japan, reassuring those in the path of the storm that they won’t miss any rugby while away from their flooded homes. New Zealand sports reporters stationed in Japan for the Rugby World Cup have had the rare and heartwarming opportunity to inform ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Government in contentious discussions about whether to put surplus on red or black
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones is the only Cabinet member in favour of putting it all on green. As Finance Minister Grant Robertson finds himself with an enormous $7.5 billion surplus, the Government has begun intense, at times contentious conversations about whether to put the money on red or black at ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Jordanian teachers’ successful strike has lessons for here
    by Susanne Kemp At the start of September close to 100,000 school teachers went on strike in Jordan.  They demanded a 50% pay rise.  A pay rise actually agreed to by the regime back in 2014. In early October, however, in the face of government repression and threats, the teachers’ ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Why some people still think climate change isn’t real
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • The SIS unlawfully spied on Nicky Hager
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • October 2019 – Newsletter
    https://mailchi.mp/7d9133add053/closing-the-gap-october-2019-newsletter ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    1 week ago
  • And they wonder why we think they’re environmental vandals…
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Paying the price in California
    Last year, California burned. This year, to stop it happening again (or rather, to stop themselves from being found liable if it happens again), Pacific Gas and Electric is cutting power to half the state for a week:Schools are closed. Traffic lights down. Tunnels dark. Businesses unopened. Hospitals running on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Let’s Hear It For Up-Close-And-Personal, Hard-Copy Democracy!
    The Best Way: Missing from the on-line voting debate is any reference to the voting system that produces turn-out figures ranging from 77 to 93 percent of registered voters. The voting system used to collect and count the votes cast in our parliamentary elections. The system that involves citizens making ...
    1 week ago
  • 10/10: World Day Against the Death Penalty
    Today, October 10, is the world day against the death penalty. Out of 195 UN member states, 84 still permit capital punishment. Today is the day we work to change that. This year's theme is children. Having a parent sentenced to death or executed causes long-term trauma and stigmatization which ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Talking Freer Lives: a Marxist gender-critical perspective from Australia
    Among the great new bunch of political friends we have been making recently is the excellent Australian-based Marxist gender-critical site, Freer Lives.  So we asked the comrade who set up that blog to write something for Redline on the blog, himself, his analysis of the rise of gender politics and ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Government spin accepted by union leadership
    by Don Franks  The Auckland City Mission is struggling with a 40 percent increase in demand for food parcels this year. A total of 23,020 were needed by June. Last month Missioner Chris Farrelly told the Herald the “cupboards are bare” and without an emergency food drive, he can’t see ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Forbidden Thoughts
    by The Council of Disobedient Women   Massey Wellington Student Association had a sit-in today. Imagine a sit-in. On a campus. Against a women’s rights meeting. Did the ’60s really happen or did we fucking dream it? They gathered in the student square, an echo chamber. Sitting on soft pillows ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Much love to my loyal Ukrainian readership
    For some reasons, my post about the mystery message from inside the Downing Street bunker seemed to catch people's attention.  Quite a lot of hits from NZ (unsurprisingly) and the USA (a bit more puzzlingly, but hi there, USAians!!) and 76 views from the Ukraine.I've celebrated my Ukrainian readers in ...
    1 week ago
  • Another day of bonkers GNUmours (again, sorry)
    First, almost a score of Labour MPs seem to have sent a letter to the EU basically begging them to accept a deal - any deal - just so Britain can get the Heck on with Brexiting instead of being trapped in limbo:
    To avoid no deal, deliver on the ...
    1 week ago
  • Labour vs working class immigrants – again!
    by Phil Duncan In 2016 the National-led government suspended the Parent Visa Category, through which migrants were able to bring their parents into New Zealand.  Since then over 5,700 people have been in immigration limbo, stuck on the visa wait list. Labour is now bringing back the scheme.  Well, sort ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women press statement: on Massey University and Feminism 2020
    The following was released yesterday (Tues, October 8) by the women’s liberation organisation Speak Up for Women. On 23 September Speak Up For Women announced that we would be holding an event at the Massey University Theaterette in Wellington. The event is called Feminism 2020. The intention of the event ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Farmers support dirty rivers
    The government is currently consulting on plans to improve freshwater quality. So naturally, farmers oppose it:South Taranaki farmers are preparing to fight proposed national freshwater changes that some fear will bankrupt them. The Government's proposed National Environment Standard on Freshwater Management, released in September, rated the Waingongoro River as one ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No-one cares about local government
    Yesterday was the last day for (reliably) posting your vote away in local body elections. Turnouts are mostly much lower than the equivalent time last year (Palmerston North is down 2.3%), and so naturally people are pushing their online-voting snake oil again. Because the online census worked so well, lets ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The political ghosts of eugenics may matter more than the genetic
    This essay, on the political legacy of the eugenics movement, by Kenan Malik was originally published in the Observer on 6 October 2019, under the headline ‘The spirit of eugenics is still with us, as immigrants know to their cost’. Birth control. Intelligence tests. Town planning. Immigration controls. It’s striking how ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • “Surplus” again
    Another year, and the government has announced another enormous government "surplus". And just like last year, its nothing of the sort. When we have people homeless and sick and hungry, when we have schools and hospitals still falling down, when we have underpaid public servants and infrastucture unmaintained or unbuilt, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Inside the Downing Street bunker
    James Forsyth at The Spectator (I know, I know) has tapped one of his contacts inside Number Ten for an insight into the Johnson administration's thinking and strategy.It is fascinating, unsettling and quite, quite mad.  Some key points:Negotiations have stalled and the Johnson administration are keen to blame the EU: ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Taking Control Of The Nation’s Story.
    Fatal Contact: With the arrival of captain James Cook in October 1769, the islands of what would become New Zealand ceased to be the preserve of Polynesian navigators and settlers and became a part of both the world’s map and the world’s history.THE MAORI NATIONALIST assault upon the historical meaning ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Are GNUs extinct?
    Another round of tactical talks about forming a Government of National Unity have come to nothing with the Liberal Democrats still refusing countenance putting Jeremy Corbyn into Downing Street:Opposition talks on Monday made little headway over when to try and vote down Boris Johnson's government and who might succeed him as ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour chickens out again
    When the government was elected, it promised to lead the way on electric vehicles, and specifically to make the government vehicle fleet emissions-free where-practicable by 2025.They lied:There are 15,473 vehicles in the government fleet and only 78 are electric. When the coalition Government came into power in late 2017, the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Transgender extremism, violence at work against feminist meeting at British Labour Party conference
    by Nick Rogers The debate around the meaning of sex and gender made an appearance at this year’s British Labour Party conference in Brighton. Women’s Place UK – an organisation that questions the demand that biological males who self-identify as woman should have access to women’s spaces, to all-women shortlists, ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Rebelling in Wellington
    Yesterday I went down to Wellington to participate in the Extinction Rebellion protest. Its part of the latest global wave of XR actions, with actions happening all over the world. Some of those protests are massively disruptive: in Canada, XR is blocking major bridges, stopping people from getting to work. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • ‘The Workshop’ – Report: Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform: A Guide to Strategies that ...
    The Workshop is a charitable trust for public good. The Workshop undertake research to find ways of communicating that will build support for the solutions that work to solve complex social and environmental problems. See their Report on Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform below. ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • Exclusive language
    What is language? We generally assume that it a facility unique to humans, allowing us to share what’s in and on our minds. We can tell of our plans, our past exploits, our knowledge. It also allows us to lie. And yet there are vast numbers of people we can’t ...
    SciBlogsBy Michael Corballis
    2 weeks ago
  • April 2018 – Submission to the NZ Govt Tax Working Group
    You can read our submission HERE ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago

  • Methane reducing cattle feed one step closer
    The Government today announced its support for a project that could substantially reduce agricultural greenhouse gas emissions from cattle. The announcement was made as part of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s and Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor’s visit to Nelson’s Cawthron Aquaculture Park. The Cawthron Institute will receive $100,000 from the Government’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    15 hours ago
  • Bill to refresh superannuation system passes first reading
    Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni has welcomed the first reading of the New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension Legislation Amendment Bill. “Every New Zealander has a stake in New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension,” says Carmel Sepuloni. “They are our most common form of social assistance – nearly 800,000 New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • Government announces next steps in fight against measles
    Babies in Auckland aged six months and over can receive a free vaccination and children will all have access to vaccines, Associate Minister of Health Julie Anne Genter announced today at Papatoetoe High School.   The move comes as part of Government efforts to step up the fight against measles. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    18 hours ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Pacific Futures: Connections, Identity...
    ***Check against delivery*** Good morning. It is a pleasure to be here, and to have the honour of opening this important conference on behalf of the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. Let us take the opportunity to acknowledge all the people who have helped make today possible, including our special ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    19 hours ago
  • Police trial new response to high risk events
    Police Minister Stuart Nash says the safety of frontline officers and members of the public will be the focus of a new trial of specialist Police response teams in three of our largest urban centres. Police have this morning released details of an initiative to be trialled in Counties Manukau, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    19 hours ago
  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
    The Minister of Fisheries is calling for entries for a new public award to celebrate innovation in our seafood sector. “I have established the Seafood Sustainability Awards to recognise and celebrate those throughout industry, tangata whenua and communities who demonstrate outstanding dedication and innovation towards the sustainability of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    21 hours ago
  • More progress for women and we can do more
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter welcomes leaders in the private sector taking action on closing their gender pay gaps to ensure a fairer workplace for all New Zealanders. Ms Genter today launched a new report, Addressing the gender pay gap and driving women’s representation in senior leadership, from the Champions for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
    Government Ministers today welcomed the release of a marine environment report highlighting the four key issues affecting our oceans, estuaries and coastlines.  The release underlines the importance of government proposals to combat climate pollution, ensure clean freshwater, protect biodiversity, make land use more sustainable, and reduce waste and plastic.    Environment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
    The Government has approved funding for a new acute mental health facility for Waikato which will provide better care and support to people with mental health and addiction issues. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Dr David Clark announced the $100 million project to replace the aging Henry Rongomau ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
    The Government is making progress on its goal to integrate te reo Māori into education by 2025, with over 500 teachers and support staff already graduating from Te Ahu o te Reo Māori,  Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Kelvin Davis made the announcement at an awards ceremony in Waikanae today, for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
    Statistics Minister James Shaw has welcomed the first release of 2018 Census data. The first release of data today, 23 September, includes key data on population, regional growth, the number of homes and the size of different ethnic groups in New Zealand. Data from the 2018 Census will support the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
    Minister for Statistics James Shaw today announced a public consultation on a proposed algorithm charter for government agencies. The charter has been developed by the Government Chief Data Steward in response to growing calls for more transparency in government use of data. Computer algorithms – procedures or formulas for solving ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, Climate Change Minister James Shaw and visiting Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte co-hosted a business roundtable in Auckland this morning focused on working together to address climate change.  “The Netherlands is an important partner for New Zealand. We share a strong agricultural history. Sustainable agribusiness and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
    The Government is taking action to build an inclusive economy where more of us receive our fair share at work and businesses can compete on great products and services, not undercutting wages and conditions, Immigration and Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. Two consultations launched today seek feedback ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
    The future for New Zealand’s threatened indigenous freshwater fish looks brighter with the passing of the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Bill in Parliament today said Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “Until now, our freshwater fish legislation has been 20 years out of date. We have lacked effective tools to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
    At 1.30pm tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of Kiwis will join about 65 million people around the globe in ShakeOut, the world’s biggest earthquake drill. The annual drill is to remind people of the right action to take during an earthquake which is to Drop, Cover, Hold, and to practise their ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
    New Zealand’s economic strength and resilience has been recognised in a major update on the state of the global economy. The IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook released overnight shows a reduced global growth forecast over the next two years as issues like the US-China trade war and Brexit take hold. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
    Justice Minister Andrew Little has today introduced a new Bill to prevent terrorism and support the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill gives the New Zealand Police the ability to apply to the High Court to impose control orders on New Zealanders who ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
    A Bill that proposes targeted changes to simplify the processes for Māori land owners when engaging with the Māori Land Court has had its First Reading today. “The approach taken by the Government is to ensure that the protection of Māori land remains a priority as we seek to improve ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
    Let me first thank all the new unionists and members in the room. There is nothing more important to improving people’s working lives than people making the decision to care, to get on board and help, to take up the reins and get involved. Congratulations to you. You bring the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
    Minister of Defence Ron Mark has signed a certificate exempting the activity of engine testing at Whenuapai Airbase from the Resource Management Act 1991. The Act gives the Minister of Defence the power to exempt activities for the purposes of national security.  The certificate will mean the recent Environment Court ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson has announced New Zealand will join the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action while attending APEC meetings in Chile. The objective of the 39 member Coalition is to share information and promote action to tackle climate change. It was formed in April this year, in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Lyttelton Parking
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Hagley Oval
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • CTU speech – DPM
    Ladies and gentlemen, NZCTU President Richard Wagstaff, members of respective unions – thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This might be preaching to the choir, but the importance of trade unions in New Zealand’s historical arch is difficult to understate. And it is my belief that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark have announced the New Zealand Government’s decision to again deploy a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea. New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand deeply concerned at developments in north-east Syria
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand continues to have serious concerns for peace and stability in north-east Syria. “Recent reports that hundreds of ISIS-affiliated families have fled from a camp are deeply concerning from a humanitarian and security perspective”, Mr Peters says. “While we acknowledge Turkey’s domestic security ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government on high alert for stink bugs
    Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor is warning travelling Kiwis to be vigilant as the high-season for the crop-eating brown marmorated stink bug (BMSB) is under way. “We’re on high alert to stop BMSB arriving in NZ. The high season runs until April 30 and we’ve strengthened our measures to stop stink ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Better protections for students in halls of residence
    The Government is moving swiftly to change the law to improve the welfare and pastoral care of students living in university halls of residence and other tertiary hostels. Cabinet has agreed to several changes, including creating a new mandatory Code of Practice that sets out the duty of pastoral care ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New trapping guide for community and expert trappers alike
    The Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage has launched a new comprehensive trapping guide for community trappers to help them protect our native birds, plants and other wildlife, at Zealandia in Wellington today. ‘A practical guide to trapping’, has been developed by the Department of Conservation (DOC), and was launched during ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Widening Access to Contraceptives Welcomed
    Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter welcomes PHARMAC’s move to improve access to long-acting reversible contraception (LARCs). PHARMAC has today announced it will fund the full cost of Mirena and Jaydess for anyone seeking long term contraception, lifting previous restrictions on access to Mirena. “I welcome women having greater choices ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Major upgrade for Taranaki Base Hospital
    The Government has approved the next stage of a major redevelopment of Taranaki Base Hospital, which will deliver new and improved facilities for patients. Health Minister Dr David Clark has announced details of a $300 million dollar project to build a new East Wing at the New Plymouth hospital. It ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Extra support for rural families
    Extra funding will allow Rural Support Trusts to help farming families, says Minister for Rural Communities and Agriculture Damien O’Connor. “I know that rural families are worried about some of the challenges facing them, including the ongoing uncertainty created by the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak. “Those concerns sit alongside ongoing worries ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Howard Leaque Beekeeper programme graduation
    Thank you for the opportunity to be here to present certificates to the 16 graduates who have completed a beekeeping course delivered by the Howard League.  Let us start by acknowledging Auckland Prison’s Deputy Prison Director Tom Sherlock, and Acting Assistant Regional Commissioner of Corrections Northern Region Scott Walker - ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Finance Minister to attend APEC meetings
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson leaves this weekend to attend the APEC Finance Ministers meeting in Santiago, Chile. Discussions between APEC Finance Ministers at the meeting will include the effects of the current global economic uncertainty, risks for APEC economies and sustainable development of the region. While at APEC Grant Robertson ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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