TPPA agreement reached

Written By: - Date published: 7:28 am, October 6th, 2015 - 161 comments
Categories: business, capitalism, Economy, International, john key, Minister for International Embarrassment, national, national/act government, same old national, us politics - Tags: ,

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The deal has been done. We are told that it is the best thing since sliced bread although we are not allowed to know the details.

Tobacco companies will not be allowed to use the investor state resolution procedure which is a good thing. All other industries will however which is very bad.  Stand by for the lawyering to start.

Dairy will have a minuscule increase in the amount it can export.  Milk powder access will be phased in over 25 years.  Fran O’Sullivan describes Groser’s analysis of the deal as putting fois gras on a number of dead rats.

There is to be a new Pharmac process for the selection of drugs.  The cost to Pharmac is $4.5 million in the first year and increases by $2.2 million each year. There will be an increase in the cst of drugs but the amount is unclear.  John Key is trumpeting that there will be no further cost to consumers of medications.  He appears to not understand that as taxpayers we will be paying more.

Tony Veitch summed things up well in open mike:

It is with considerable regret that I have to inform the New Zealand public that its democracy contracted a wasting disease overnight. Dissolution is inevitable, but the disease is likely to be a protracted one. There is no known cure, once infected, except by really radical surgical means, which will, unfortunately, not be undertaken in the near future.
At the moment, the patient is seemingly doing well, but this insidious disease will progressively sap the sovereignty from the body corporate, until only a skeleton remains.
R.I.P.

Update r0b: Another minor detail:

The threshold above which an investor must get approval from the Overseas Investment Office will increase form $100 million for all countries except Australia, to $200 million for TPP countries. Australia gets more favourable treatment. The deal will prevent the Government banning nationals from TPP countries from buying property in New Zealand.

161 comments on “TPPA agreement reached”

  1. But conspiring? Our governments? NEVER! They would not do dirty deals in backrooms with lobbyist for big corporations nobody in their right minds wants. Our governments love us and that is that. Oh, and we have a real working democracy and if everybody just voted we would be sweet!

    And you know what we have never been sued and it won’t happen now. Just believe John Key when he says that because he has never lied before! People who doubt him are just rent-a-crowd crusties and journalists who doubt him are lefty rebelrousers undeserving of their job!

  2. Ffloyd 2

    Obama will be able to let his pet pooch johnkey off his leash for a pee now. Oh the relief!! Hopefully this is a definite beginning of key’s political demise.

  3. Tautoko Mangō Mata 3

    This is the period of the hard sell. See Audrey Young’s article
    “Hard sell tipped to follow TPP deal” http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11524288

    Our job is to find out the truth and educate all NZers in any way we can.

    Share good informative links to all of your friends.
    Share any good ideas.Let the ripples spread out from a point source.

    • AmaKiwi 3.1

      @Tautoko

      Thank you. It’s time to act not to moan.

    • Rosie 3.2

      “Our job is to find out the truth and educate all NZers in any way we can.”

      So, according to the article in the link and RNZ, we have 3 months to continue to educate and organise in any way we can.

      “Under a rule set by the United States, any agreement cannot be signed until 90 days after negotiations end, to allow time for full consideration of its pros and cons.

      The same rule also says the agreement’s full text must be made available to the public after 30 days.”

      I doubt more action will have any influence on the deal being signed off, close to Xmas it would seem, (what a shit gift for the nation) however, it is important we continue to act as this is such a historical event for our democracy. We can’t give up at this point. What would future generations have to say about us if we did?

      Once the full contents of the deal are finally revealed to us (is that 30 days from now? Is that what the article means?) it’s possible that populations among the 12 nations will react with real fire, once we know for sure what we really losing and what price the citizens and environment will pay for corporate greed.

      I’m with you TMM. I will continue to resist.

    • David H 3.3

      But it won’t have a smooth ride in Congress. Thank God or whoever.

      http://huff.to/1jKPhYn

      • Richard Christie 3.3.1

        Why can the US Congress still reject and presumably scuttle the entire agreement yet, from tenor of comments here, our Parliament can not?

    • tracey 3.4

      yup. hard sell and misleading info cos they have a long jump on everyone else.

      kiwis wont pay more for medicine says groser and then says subsidy increase will be minimal. which is it timmy? prescription charges stay the same but bill from pharmac to govt is higher? so how do kiwis not pay more for medicine.

      3.5 % of dairy open in canada BUT we were already able to sell some tariff free products into Canada so the pure increase is the important figure.

      nothing to hide so nothing to spin… right?

      another uneven information playing field.

    • tracey 3.5

      but for this govt a 3o day window to freely market and spin is huge. ask any advertiser what they could achieve with 30 days of unlimited media coverage with NO competition.

  4. millsy 4

    Now we are going to be sued for having publicly owned water reticulation.

  5. Nck 5

    Apparently we only got a Bronze medal, not the Gold…… But johnny and Timmy ran a good race and proudly wore the silver fern and back singlet…..

  6. One Anonymous Bloke 6

    OABCorp (motto “I’m a person”) today instructed lawyers to sue the government for failing to govern. Costs have already run into the billions and are increasing daily.

    • You need to register yourself in a country outside the one whose government you wish to sue. U.S. corporations, for example and as I understand it, cannot sue the U.S. government.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1

        Good point: sue the US government. Start with the low-hanging fruit – drone murders, climate change and Goldman Sachs and expand from there.

      • RJL 6.1.2

        U.S. corporations, for example and as I understand it, cannot sue the U.S. government.

        That’s no great impediment, however. Large corporations are totally capable of incorporating themselves, or a subsidiary, in a jurisdiction of convenience.

      • linda 6.1.3

        hang the bastards

  7. Penny Bright 7

    The FIGHTBACK in the USA – to ensure Congress does NOT approve the TPPA has begun!

    FYI

    BREAKING: The Trans-Pacific Partnership Is Headed to Congress
    Say NO to the Largest, Pro-Corporate Trade Deal Ever

    NO on TPP

    Tell Your Members of Congress: Vote NO on the TPP!

    ……..

    Today, U.S. Trade Representatives finalized the text for the largest trade deal in history — the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). The deal has been negotiated by hundreds of “advisers” from some of the world’s most powerful corporations while the public has been shut out.

    The TPP could cost us good paying jobs, increase fracking and unsafe food imports, and undermine democracy by giving corporations even more power.

    Now it’s up to Congress to pass or reject the TPP. Tell your members of Congress: Vote NO on the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).

    The TPP is being called NAFTA on steroids and has been negotiated in secret since 2008 among some of the world’s most powerful corporations.

    Pro-big business trade deals like the TPP are designed to boost the profits of multinational corporations, but they do so at the expense of working families, our environment and our democratic rights.

    Leaked documents have revealed just how terrible this trade deal is, including a key provision that would allow foreign companies to sue the federal government over democratically enacted laws that they claim hurt their profits.¹

    That means that if the TPP goes through, local initiatives like GMO labeling laws and fracking bans could be challenged in international trade courts.

    Lobbyists for corporate interests and the elite in Washington are pushing hard to pass the TPP as soon as possible.

    There’s a lot wrong with our current political system, but we’ve reached a new low if we allow corporate special interests to write our laws.

    Take action to oppose the TPP and protect everyone’s right to safe food and clean water.

    The national movement to block trade deals that put big business before the public is already working to stop the TPP dead in its tracks.

    Now that the U.S. Trade Representatives have finalized the deal, the TPP will be sent to Congress.

    Once the clock starts ticking, we have about four-and-a-half months to stop this deal.²

    This puts the final vote on the TPP smack in the middle of the presidential primaries.

    Traditionally, the Republican establishment has pushed trade deals favored by their corporate backers, but infighting within the Republican Party has put the votes to pass the TPP into question.

    We still have a chance to stop this bad deal.

    Take action to reject the TPP.

    It is long past time for Congress to stand up for workers, the environment and public health and to reject these corporate trade deals.

    Contact your members of Congress TODAY and urge them to oppose the TPP!

    • infused 7.1

      Do you ever get sick of listening to yourself?

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 7.1.1

        @Infused. Penny puts herself out there fighting for others. She is a damn sight more honourable than many of those who have Honourable in front of their names. He wahine toa.

        • Bob 7.1.1.1

          “She is a damn sight more honourable than many of those who have Honourable in front of their names” If that were true she would pay her rates when she got caught out, the same way our ‘Honourable’ politicians pay they dues when they inevitably get caught cheating the system.

          • thatguynz 7.1.1.1.1

            How much do you actually know about Penny’s case other than what you’ve read in Granny Herald Bob?

            • Bob 7.1.1.1.1.1

              My understanding is that she refuses to pay her rates until she gets full transparency of local government spending. If my understanding is correct, would you support me avoiding tax until I got full transparency of central government spending?

              • thatguynz

                Oddly enough using that example – yes I would.

              • Jones

                I would too.

              • McFlock

                Yep, same here.

                Not only that, I’d even support you making your case in court. I might even worry a bit that you might lose your house, but respect you for doing it.

                Even if I often flick past tl:dr posts 🙂

              • KJT

                Certainly.

                Government are spending our money. Anyone on a Government income, including Westpac, Fletchers and McDonalds, have no right to claim “commercial sensitivity when in receipt of taxpayer funding.

      • Paul 7.1.2

        Do you?

      • millsy 7.1.3

        Do you ever get sick of being such a douchebag on here?

      • tracey 7.1.4

        what is your sense of this getting through congress? mine is it depends how much the republicans already knew of the detail and if they didnt know a of it how much donor money might yet come from the corps who want it?

        • dukeofurl 7.1.4.1

          Could be how the US companies react.

          Ford Motor has come out against – no provisions for currency manipulation ie Japan
          Big Tobacco is against ( of course)

          Pharmacy could be against too ??

          Could go either way but doesnt seem to be a overwhelming push for the deal

      • Majic Mike 7.1.5

        Schaudefraud infused.
        Democracy at work transparency and open debate.

    • Unicus 7.2

      Penny’s right on the money with this one –

      As an unintended consequence of this bare knuckle corporate power grab without public discourse – is the sound of a resounding backfire –

      Grass roots opposition here and in most of the signatory countries in raising the alarm – to the immense chagrin of the guilty bastards who were selling our sovereignty and civic inheritance behind our backs – have primed public opinion for an actual debate – a debate which will ensure future corporate maneuvering is called to public account

      In the months and years ahead those who resisted this outrage can celebrate the fact that they nudged the drowsy giant of democratic interest into rubbing at least one eye awake . They can also celebrate the fact they exposed the crass foolery and misguided greed of corporate executives and ill directed politicians who thought they could re-cast public accountability in secret .

      Corporate power is a reality we all must deal with – before the TPPA it lived in the shadows opposing public interest indirectly through ownership of critical information sources and core public infrastructure – The TPPA has left corporate political agendas no place to hide .

      That is why pressure and presence must grow on congress or anywhere else politicians believe they can betray the interests of their fellow citizens for the pittance of financial gain .

  8. Tautoko Mangō Mata 8

    Can we possibly have a post for positive action ideas column separate from this? These ideas often get lost in among general discussion.
    Then maybe this column could be followed with others in expanding the best ideas and how to initiate them

    Coordinating action helps magnify it. We can win this fight IF we act together.

    Time to fight against the plausible denial and wilful ignorance.

    • Ad 8.1

      Tautoko you’ve been across this thing better than most from the beginning.

      Why not draft a post up yourself and send it in?

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 8.1.1

        EEEK! It just needs a title like “Feet to the Fire”- TPPA
        Touting Positive Proposals for Action or similar

    • tracey 8.2

      I hae witnessed first hand the damage Penny and Grace Haden have done to innocent people. I have no doubt penny and grace believed every word they spread. but they were wrong and damaged 2 people i know financially and healthwise through their conspiracy based haze. losing in Court only fueled the conspiracy to them. the judge was corrupt too you see.

      so my experience is that penny believes in what she does and says but honour doesnt always accompany it.

  9. Enough is Enough 9

    This will be the death of this government.

    The dairy industry will turn on Key now and once they go his support will crumble

    • savenz 9.1

      Yes this is a good time to actually realise the farmers have been screwed too.

      If the TPP was for better access to dairy etc, they have put the cause back and shafted the farmers.

      Now everyone has to pay more for medicine, water etc and the foreign investors won’t be buying the milk, they will be buying the farms.

      As for the state investor being changed just for tobacco, what about all the other noxious poisons around – now governments can’t sue the manufacturers or stop them selling poisons or dangerous goods. Hello arms industry coming to little NZ.

      But the REAL hideous thing, is that it is all secret and while the taxpayers are out funding the invasion of the middle east to bring democracy/ aka occupation, while selling out and making meaningless, democracy at home. And that includes the USA government, as the citizens there are not too happy either. They know TPP means more inequality, less local jobs and poorer wages.

      How the F can the TPP process be described as democratic when it is secret and financed by the taxpayers of the countries who did not get a say.?

      IN corporate speak it is the management shafting the shareholders (which we are seeing an increasing amount of Ports of Auckland, Fonterra etc).

      Now it’s spread to government.

    • Bob 9.2

      Yeah, looks like Fonterra are pissed:
      Fonterra’s chairman John Wilson said the deal was “far from perfect” and “failed to reach its potential” for the dairy industry, due to a pushback from farmers in other member countries.
      But regardless, he said the TPPA was a small but significant step forward for the sector.

      ‘Significant step forward in the sector’, ouch, take that John Key…wait, isn’t that positive statement?

      • infused 9.2.1

        fed farmers say otherwise.

        • Bob 9.2.1.1

          Really? I just checked and can’t see a press release, so I did a search for news articles from the past 24 hours for comment on the released TPPA information, still nothing.
          Given the fact Dairy was one of the last negotiating points on the table, it’s hard to see how anything prior to this would be relevant.

    • Wayne 9.3

      Enough is enough,

      You are wrong. The voters who vote for John Key and National will continue to do so. There is not enough bad stuff in the agreement that would cause them to change their minds. Also Helen Clark’s late intervention will have confirmed they can trust the govt to act in New Zealand’s best interests. In my view Labour will reluctantly support TPP, partly because of Helen.

      New Zealand First, the Greens and the Maori Party will not support it. But none of them have ever supported any free trade deals anyway, so no change there.

      The Greens may pick up disaffected Labour voters. But most anti-TPP activists have probably already left Labour.

      Yes, there will be a few demonstrations, but they will not change anything.

      I can not really see National voters in the farming sector going over to Winston on the basis of the deal as announced. If they do so, it will be for broader reasons than TPP.

      So basically a win for John Key and Tim Groser.

      The real action will be in the US, and I reckon Congress will back it. For most Republicans, if Sanders is opposed to it, that will be a good reason to back it.

      The one interesting calculation is whether Republicans hate Obama enough to vote against TPP. I think it unlikely. These are the very people who gave Obama negotiating authority to get TPP across the line, so I imagine they will also back the actual deal as well.

      • tracey 9.3.1

        how do you know what is in the deal to be so definitive Wayne?

      • Majic Mike 9.3.2

        Wayne the Republicans will decline this free trade deal enmasse as they rely heavily on the Rural vote.

      • KJT 9.3.3

        When are you going to give me the cost benefit analysis of the China free trade deal I asked you for some time ago, Wayne?

        Surely the Government has one.

        Just as we are still waiting, with bated breath, for the rises in employment, welfare, health care and wages, because New Zealand is doing “so much better” after all this “free trade”.

        For example on the China FTA.

        Credits. Balance of trade. (Probably briefly until other countries get up to speed with China FTA’s and the tide of US “printed money” heading for China drops).

        Debits.
        Invisibles deficit.
        Interest on borrowings to buy Chinese junk.
        Unemployment costs.
        Health costs with uncertain jobs.
        Small business failures because they cannot compete with slave labour and zero interest rates in China.
        Interest and profits going offshore from Dairy..
        Infrastructure costs.
        Subsidies to dairy. E.g. Irrigation, low wages, flood relief, drought relief.

        To name but a few things.
        Just quantifying these, off the top of my head, it looks like even the China “FTA” will be a net loss over time ,despite being much more favourable to us than the TPPA.

        This game of “beggar thy neighbour” will end in tears.

        The magical world of New Zealand’s, Neo-Liberal right wing.

        It seems that politicians really live on another planet from us.
        Or is it the extra millions from campaign funders and the lucrative jobs after politics, on offer, which make them so eager to sell us out.

      • Jones 9.3.4

        Tides already turned on this Government… and in the business sector. It’s a slow tide.

        It’s neither a win or a loss if you don’t care about any long term consequences and I don’t Key or Grosser really care about them. The bad could be in the TPPA as a ticking time bomb… going off at some stage in the future when Key and Grosser have long left politics.

        In the US, there will be plenty of corporate money raining on Congressmen to get it over the line… no doubt.

    • tracey 9.4

      fonterra is already spreading the government meme on dairy. started yesterday before the deal was signed… what does that tell you about who the secrecy was really from?

      • KJT 9.4.1

        The deal is so good that National is already lying by omission, about it.

        “93% of non dairy goods to be tariff free”. Forgetting to mention that over 80% already are. For example.

        • maui 9.4.1.1

          I wonder how many of the extra 13% of goods now tariff free are goods that we will actually end up exporting to these countries? Rod Oram on National radio this morning said tariffs weren’t really an obstacle for NZ to trade with the world.

  10. leftie 10

    John Key and Tim Groser have sold us out, and it is nothing short of an act of treason.

  11. Nck 11

    Wall Street and other big corporations have won again. In the Senate, I will do all that I can to defeat the #TPP agreement. BERNIE SANDERS TWEET

  12. dv 12

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72688061/no-increased-medicine-costs-under-tppa

    No increased medicine costs under TPPA

    Groser said Kiwis will not pay any more for medicine as a result of the TPPA and the “cost of the subsidy bill will not go up [by] any large extent”.

    It will cost roughly $4.5 million in the first year to set up the software to provide the additional information that negotiating partners wanted.

    After that operating costs will be about $2.5m a year – a “tiny rounding error” on what is a large health budget, he said.

    2.5m would pay for breakfasts in schools.

    So kiwis are not going to pay more – the tax payer are going to.

    BUT BUT iam a taxpayer.

    ROUNDING ERROR Huh

    • Bob 12.1

      The health sector has a budget of $15.9b as of the last budget, so this represents a cost increase of 0.15% for the entire health budget, so while it is a stretch to talk about $2.5m as a “tiny rounding error”, it certainly isn’t a significant cost, especially when you take into account the increased tax revenue from the projected $2.7b increase in trade from the deal by 2030.

      Another way to look at this, it is a 50c per person increase in health per year for a $600 per person increase in trade per year, you do the math.

      • tracey 12.1.1

        but it also mans groser was lying when he said kiwis wont pay more for medicines cos their will be an increase in subsidy and implementation and all taxpayers who are kiwi will pay. So why didnt he just say that kiwis will pay a tiny bit more but overall fhey will receive bdnefits to offset the increased payments

        • Srylands 12.1.1.1

          Stop being so parochial. This is not just about New Zealand. It is about delivering higher growth rates for 40 percent of the world. And all you are worried about is paying an extra $5 for your fucking zoloft script. You are the epitomy of selfishness.

          • thatguynz 12.1.1.1.1

            Oh the irony – a right winger accusing others of selfishness. Do you even read what you write sadlands?

          • dukeofurl 12.1.1.1.2

            Wake up, those poor underprivileged are Quebec dairy farmers, american cattle producers, japanese car makers.

            Been reading John Keys “cheat sheet” for today ?

          • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1.3

            Hey c’mon dude traceys all right, no need to resort to swearing

          • Tracey 12.1.1.1.4

            Slow day at the carpark Slylands?

            Little ole us make such a big difference to the world Slylands? How odd, I heard we should keep shitting in our backyards because it would reduce global emissions one iota?

        • Bob 12.1.1.2

          “but it also mans groser was lying when he said kiwis wont pay more for medicines”, no, it may be semantics as it all comes out of the same purse, but there are no increases in medicines from what I can see, just an increase in operational costs.
          I agree he should have said their will be a small increase in cost, but technically he is correct in saying we won’t pay more for medicines, we will pay more for the running of Pharmac instead.

          Out of interest, how do the details that have been released so far line up with all of the Wikileaks details you pushed as fact prior to the TPPA being finalised?
          From what I can see (although the devil will most certainly be in the detail), you have been caught up in unfounded hysteria around Pharmac and loss of sovereign rights as part of the deal :

          Parsing John Key on TPPA

          TPP designed to cripple our health system

          Open mike 03/04/2015

          Aussies & US mount opposition to TPPA – but in NZ we just keep nodding

          • lprent 12.1.1.2.1

            …but there are no increases in medicines from what I can see, just an increase in operational costs.

            Have to wait for the fine print to be released. But that gateway for pharma companies to lobby through at Pharmac looks to me to be perfect for doing lobby wedging.

            • Sacha 12.1.1.2.1.1

              Yes, “transparency” of Pharmac’s decision-making to big pharma is more of a risk to our Health budget than the tiny cost of administering the mechanism that enables legal challenges.

              Great that biologics didn’t win longer terms, but bad news on that and generics for poorer countries in the agreement.

              • northshoredoc

                PHARMAC’s decision making is already very transparent not sure why you thing this is a big risk to PHARMAC, the only change is a ‘defined timeline’ for new medicines to be considered by PHARMAC – most if not all health care professionals and patient groups would agree this is a good thing.

                Not sure what your point is regarding generics for poorer countries ?

                The biologic data exclusivity issue was always a red herring from a NZ perspective as the patent term in NZ, 20 years, runs well past the data exclusivity period in almost all cases excepting where the company has failed to apply for patents in NZ.

            • northshoredoc 12.1.1.2.1.2

              How has pharma company lobbying worked in NZ in the past……. in my opinion pretty poorly, not sure why you think this will change or why you think the pharma companies are that interested in NZ we are tiny in relation to their world wide turnover.

          • Tracey 12.1.1.2.2

            Can you post your copy of the deal Bob? You seem to have had it released sooner than the rest of us. That being the case, how about YOU do the comparison. It shouldn’t take you longer than trawling back through my comments.

            You do understand that the bits you are getting post the deal
            signing, are from the Government, and have been selected accordingly?

            I’m certainly thankful to the Aussies for their work on the medicines side of the deal.

        • Jones 12.1.1.3

          Maybe because the line for awhile has been people won’t pay more and he hadn’t yet received any updated script..?

          • Tracey 12.1.1.3.1

            yes, it seems my question was too tough for some supporters, so they needed to talk about other matters

      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2

        Another way to look at this, it is a 50c per person increase in health per year for a $600 per person increase in trade per year, you do the math.

        50 cents per person now for a never to be realised $600. Then there’s going to be the billions lost to corporations suing us. That will start within 6 months of ratification.

        And then there’s the total loss of our sovereignty to the corporations.

        Yeah, this was a bad deal. It was always a bad deal and we should be getting out of it ASAP. In fact, we should be getting out of all FTAs as they’ve done huge amount of damage to us.

        • Bob 12.1.2.1

          “50 cents per person now for a never to be realised $600”
          That is a bit pessimistic, even for you!
          Let’s look just at the meat aspect for a minute:
          http://tpp.mfat.govt.nz/assets/docs/TPP_Overview_of_Sector_Outcomes.pdf
          “NZ beef to the US: unrestricted access (no tariffs or quotas) after five years including $10.8 million of US in-quota duties eliminated at entry into force.”

          So we currently sell enough meet into the US for us to have to pay $10.8m in tariffs, remove those tariffs and we can either take a $10.8m gain in profit (the tax on which will cover the Pharmac increases by itself) and keep it at the same price in the US market, or, we can take advantage of the reduction in tariffs our meat becomes more even more competitive meaning we can open up further opportunities in the US and significant increase beef trade. Either way, the Pharmac costs will be covered in US beef alone.

          “And then there’s the total loss of our sovereignty to the corporations.”
          Citation? All I have seen around sovereign law making is the excerpt below which seems to be the complete opposite of what you have been reading:
          https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2015/october/summary-trans-pacific-partnership
          “The Exceptions Chapter ensures that flexibilities are available to all TPP Parties that guarantee full rights to regulate in the public interest, including for a Party’s essential security interest and other public welfare reasons. This chapter incorporates the general exceptions provided for in Article XX of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade 1994 to the goods trade-related provisions, specifying that nothing in the TPP shall be construed to prevent the adoption or enforcement by a Party of measures necessary to, among other things, protect public morals, protect human, animal or plant life or health, protect intellectual property, enforce measures relating to products of prison labour, and measures relating to conservation of exhaustible natural resources. ”

      • NZJester 12.1.3

        I think you mean a 50c per person increase in medicines per year, not in health per year. With this deal opening us up to secret courts preventing us stopping multi nationals doing what they want our health costs per person will be going up way more than 50c each as they trash our environment worse than our dairy farmers are allowed to now all in the name of profit.

        Key finally has his legacy as a Prime Minister. He is the one that sold our country out for a hand full of magic beans that have been irradiated so they will not be able to grow and get us access to the riches of the giants!

    • David H 12.2

      The lies are getting more Blatant, and even more Expensive for us Taxpayers.

  13. Reddelusion 13

    I think the sun came up this morning

  14. vto 14

    The world is moving towards global governance and this is one of the steps.

    There is nothing to stop it.

    It is in the human genes.

    • RedLogix 14.1

      In a globalised world a layer of global governance is both necessary and inevitable. The era of independent, unconstrained national sovereignty ended with Hiroshima.

      The open questions are – what form will this global governance take, what will be it’s relationship with the existing nations, and how will it be democratically accountable?How will it’s agenda be set, and what will be it’s goals?

      Pretending it ain’t gonna happen is the assured path to having no influence in the outcome.

      • thatguynz 14.1.1

        Inevitable? Really? What a terribly nuanced view.

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 14.1.2

        As sure as hell the TPPA is not the form of global governance we want. How much input did the average person get? Nothing. Who drove this deal? The answer is given in the list of political donors to the US politicians.

        • RedLogix 14.1.2.1

          Precisely.

          Because the left has abandoned the field of Internationalism – the corporates have occupied it with glee.

      • b waghorn 14.1.3

        I agree totally with you that globalization is inevitable , it is the only hope of leveling the playing field for all .
        It up to people who have honorable intentions to stop the greedy wrighting the rules.

  15. Amused Observer 15

    I have been reading the brief from the American Trade Representative press release which has some more information.

    Chapter 29 is interesting setting out exceptions relating to rules/laws in the public interest of the parties involved.

    https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2015/october/summary-trans-pacific-partnership

    “The Exceptions Chapter ensures that flexibilities are available to all TPP Parties that guarantee full rights to regulate in the public interest, including for a Party’s essential security interest and other public welfare reasons. This chapter incorporates the general exceptions provided for in Article XX of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade 1994 to the goods trade-related provisions, specifying that nothing in the TPP shall be construed to prevent the adoption or enforcement by a Party of measures necessary to, among other things, protect public morals, protect human, animal or plant life or health, protect intellectual property, enforce measures relating to products of prison labour, and measures relating to conservation of exhaustible natural resources. ”

    Further Chapter 25 provides….

    “The chapter does not in any way affect the rights of TPP Parties to regulate for public health, safety, security, and other public interest reasons.”

    • tracey 15.1

      sure. and those who can afford the lawyers can challenge on definitions and interpretation.

      despite what people like grose key and app say I wouldove this to be the deal which will make all NZers “rich”

      when we see those born with or suffering disability paid more than subsistence for their lives I will consider we are rich.

      • northshoredoc 15.1.1

        “despite what people like grose key and app say I wouldove this to be the deal which will make all NZers “rich””

        Well the only thing that would make that a likelihood would be a similar situation to Brunei for example but then there would be the inevitable protest about producing petroleum.

        The outline of the deal that we have been provided suggest few to no additional costs to NZ and modest initial gains for our agricultural/horticultural suppliers. I do note your comments regarding those with disabilities having a tough time but would temper that with remembering that NZ is amongst the best places in the world to be born and brought up and live with a disability as it is for those without a disability this has remained the case whichever government has been in power for many, many years.

        • Rosemary McDonald 15.1.1.1

          “NZ is amongst the best places in the world to be born and brought up and live with a disability as it is for those without a disability this has remained the case whichever government has been in power for many, many years.”

          You might want to rethink that ‘doc.

          “Tracking Equalities at Work research released by the Human Rights Commission yesterday shows that New Zealand’s disabled population has nearly double the level of unemployment than non-disabled people. Disability Rights Commissioner, Paul Gibson says that it is a human right to work and clearly New Zealand needs to do better in this area.

          Disabled people have higher rates of unemployment and lower labour force participation compared to their non-disabled peers at every age and either sex. They also have lower incomes than non-disabled people. Disabled Māori unemployment rate is 17 percent but for disabled European New Zealanders it is 7 percent.”https://www.hrc.co.nz/news/people-disabilities-deserve-fair-go-work/

          and …”New Zealand used to be considered a world leader on disability action, but not any more, Mr Gibson said.”

          http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/353203/city-seen-ideal-disability-centre

          I guess it depends on which country we are compared to.

  16. tracey 16

    By 2030 john key said this will be worth billions a year. whay are billions in 2030 in todays money? and what will the environment look like. Has anyone seen the environment provisions in the Tpp?

  17. Majic Mike 17

    So Dairying and Beef get little or nothing.
    That was the only advantage NZ could gain out of this.
    The US and Canada won’t back down.
    This is only an agreement to proceed it’s not a trade deal.
    It’s very unlikely a deal will be struck at all.
    Canadian elections and US elections will put an end to any progress..

    • Bob 17.1

      “So Dairying and Beef get little or nothing”

      The savings on tariffs, once full implemented by sector are:
      Dairy $102 million
      Meat $72 million
      Fruit and vegetables $26 million
      Other agriculture $18 million
      Wine $10 million
      Manufacturing $10 million
      Forestry $9 million
      Fish $8 million
      Wool $4 million
      So by your reckoning the Flag referendum is approx 15% of “little or nothing”
      http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/tpp-negotiations-conclude

      “That was the only advantage NZ could gain out of this.”
      So the horticulture industry, the wine industry, the forestry industry, the manufacturing industry, fishing, wool, they all mean nothing to you? I hope you didn’t jump on the ‘Manufacturing Crisis’ bandwagon then, why would you complain about a sector that has no advantage to NZ.

      “Canadian elections and US elections will put an end to any progress..”
      But this deal was negotiated by big evil multinational corporations, so they will just buy those elections like they did the NZ election and push it through ‘sarc’

      • lprent 17.1.1

        Time value of money.

        $26 million now is worth a hell of a lot more now than a larger and risky amount 15 years in the future. Invested wisely now, it is multiplied many times even at quite low returns. This is the basis of all analysis about future returns.

        Clearly it is something that you don’t understand. All of those tariff reductions in the TPPA are late loaded up to and past 15 years. Compare that to the CFTA where the last of the tariffs are due to get removed in 2018 – a mere 10 years after that trade agreement was signed.

        Face it, the TPPA is complete crap when it comes to providing us a living. All of our costs start straight away. The ‘benefits’ don’t get significant for about a decade.

        • Bob 17.1.1.1

          “All of those tariff reductions in the TPPA are late loaded up to and past 15 years”
          Are you sure lprent? All of the below seem to be either immediate or within 5 years, not to mention that the reduction in these tariffs make our products more competitive in these international markets. If we are selling into these markets at currently artificially inflated prices, then these reductions will likely significantly increase demand for our products (like what happened with the China FTA):

          From the MFAT website: http://tpp.mfat.govt.nz/assets/docs/TPP_Overview_of_Sector_Outcomes.pdf

          Beef:
          “NZ beef to the US unrestricted access (no tariffs or quotas) after five years including $10.8 million of US in-quota duties eliminated at entry into force.”

          Fruit and Veg:
          “Immediate tariff savings for most fruit and vegetables: $20 million at entry into force.”
          “All kiwifruit tariffs eliminated at entry into force, worth $15 million, equating to an average $6,000 for each grower per year.
          “Japan will eliminate all tariffs on squash and capsicum (saving $1.5 million annually from entry into force), carrot and other vegetable juices (saving $2.5 million annually after five years), and onions (saving $1 million annually after five years).”

          Wine:
          “All tariffs eliminated on New Zealand wine exports as part of TPP, with $1.5 million at entry into force and $10 million annually once TPP is fully implemented”

          “Face it, the TPPA is complete crap when it comes to providing us a living. All of our costs start straight away. The ‘benefits’ don’t get significant for about a decade.”
          HA!!! And you call this government short sighted!

  18. Chooky 18

    Rod Oram on TPPA

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201773440/business-commentator-rod-oram

    earlier interview that Oram refers to:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201773430/the-trade-pact-tpp-what-will-it-mean-for-nz

    “It’s been called the most sweeping trade pact in a generation, and will affect 40 percent of the world economy. The Trans-Pacific Partnership was finally signed overnight in Atlanta. It will cut trade barriers and set common standards for 12 countries. But the devil remains in the detail … and the written details have yet to be released. Crawford Faulkner is a professorial chair in Global Value Chains and Trade at Lincoln University and a former trade negotiator with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade.”

  19. b waghorn 19

    ”The threshold above which an investor must get approval from the Overseas Investment Office will increase form $100 million”

    If this is true that its at $100 million at the moment why did the recent Lochinvar deal go to the oio.

    • dukeofurl 19.1

      That $100 mill only applies to business assets, the land requirement is additional.

      Say a business is worth $90 mill but doesnt have any significant land, it doesnt require approval. But say a sawmill with a large forest plantation would require approval no matter if the value.

  20. Chooky 20

    “Now that negotiations have concluded, what’s next?

    Participating nations much now approve the TPP draft as is, presented to them by their respective trade officials. In the US, “various congressional notice and report filing requirements add up to about four and one half months between notice of a final deal and congressional votes being taken,” Public Citizen’s trade policy director Lori Wallach explained. “Even if all of the timelines are fudged by the 90-day notice to Congress before signing, a TPP vote cannot occur in 2015.”

    …Wallach added that many congressional opponents of the deal are making noise about the agreement’s provisions, as are at least ten US presidential candidates, including Democrats Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, as well as Republican Donald Trump. The deal’s conclusion must also reckon with the political whims and cycles of the other 11 nations involved, meaning that the TPP is not out of the woods just yet.

    Polling, meanwhile, has suggested that Americans are not in favor of trade deals like the TPP, which is unpopular in all participating nations except for Vietnam, according to a recent Pew survey.”

    https://www.rt.com/usa/317706-what-is-tpp-trade/

  21. Mike the Savage One 21

    Like Chooky I listened to Rod Oram on Radio NZ National’s ‘Nine to Noon’ program, and he had little positive to say about the agreement. Naturally, apart from him and a few other critics, we have on virtually ALL media channels, radio and TV, and on print and online publications, the usual cheerleaders comment and praise the deal.

    The questions that should be asked is, what does this mean for NZ workers? What does it mean for the average consumer? We may get some bit more access to other markets, but so will they to ours. Prices may drop for some products, but so will wages and incomes for most, that is in relative terms.

    Having such trade agreements, which include nations with much lower wages and incomes, and then lowering tariff and other controls, that means, more competition also for workers, selling their labour. That is a big topic in the US and Canada, for sure, but here we are so brain-washed by the present government and their spin masters, by the hopelessly compromised “media”, and the all powerful business lobby, we are not even allowed to even consider asking such questions.

    Jobs will likely go, some new ones may be created, but when New Zealand farm workers, and manufacturing workers, will have to compete with workers not only in the US, Canada or Chile, but also in Mexico, in Peru, in Malaysia and so forth, you can bet that this will have consequences.

    But perhaps that can be seen as “global social policy” now, helping other workers in competing nations and working for competing employers, get more low paid jobs.

    Apart from that the TPPA will just perpetuate the already redundant economic approach and model, that of extracting ever more out of fossil and other limited resources, and lead to more destruction of marine areas, forests and what else there is, as the supporters of economic growth are all for growing markets (more population) and more output across the board.

    Goodbye Planet Earth, the green spots will turn more brown, the oceans will have yet more acid, plastic and other pollutants in them, and global climate change still only comes second, that is addressing it.

    No wonder Chilean President Bachelet did a “trick” like Hone Key did recently, and declared a bit of ocean around Easter Island as some kind of protected marine reserve. It comes in a “convenient” time, to distract from the actual further destruction of Chile’s environment that will come as a price for more “growth” following the TPPA (forest logging, expansion of agricultural land and so in their South).

  22. Bob 22

    So I take it Labour will come out in full support once details of Foreign Buyer restrictions are released then?
    campaign.labour.org.nz/our_position_on_the_tpp

    Pharmac must be protected – Done

    Corporations cannot successfully sue the Government for regulating in the public interest – Done: https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2015/october/summary-trans-pacific-partnership

    New Zealand maintains the right to restrict sales of farm land and housing to non-resident foreign buyers: Still awaiting details

    The Treaty of Waitangi must be upheld – Done: https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2015/october/summary-trans-pacific-partnership

    Meaningful gains are made for our farmers in tariff reductions and market access – Done: http://tpp.mfat.govt.nz/assets/docs/TPP_Overview_of_Sector_Outcomes.pdf

    • dukeofurl 22.1

      meaningful gains for farmers ?

      Not what Fonterra is saying – They are “very disappointed”, as the agreement is essentially the status quo for them.

      Its fanciful that dairy will make much impact in Japan, they just dont do dairy, soybean is more their thing

      • Puckish Rogue 22.1.1

        •Dairy $102 million
        •Meat $72 million
        •Fruit and vegetables $26 million
        •Other agriculture $18 million
        •Wine $10 million
        •Manufacturing $10 million
        •Forestry $9 million
        •Fish $8 million
        •Wool $4 million

        You don’t think farming getting $178 million as being pretty meaningful

        Fonterras going to get some benefit from cheese down the track but farming doesn’t begin and end with Fonterra

        • lprent 22.1.1.1

          You don’t think farming getting $178 million as being pretty meaningful

          Compared to the billions from China? Nope. And in 15 years before it reaches that level?

          Even the Korean FTA will probably outperform that level with its tariff reductions over the next 13 years.

          Besides which the important question is how many jobs? Agriculture and its processing industries are one of the smaller employers of people. They grow exports without adding many more jobs.

          Manufacturing $10 million? Yeah I can see a lot of jobs in that…

      • Bob 22.1.2

        “Not what Fonterra is saying – They are “very disappointed”, as the agreement is essentially the status quo for them.”
        They did say they were “very disappointed”, but if you read the whole article they then say: “Fonterra’s chairman John Wilson said the deal was “far from perfect” and “failed to reach its potential” for the dairy industry, due to a pushback from farmers in other member countries.
        But regardless, he said the TPPA was a small but significant step forward for the sector”

        The big gains in Japan will be around cheese and high end proteins, don’t think I have ever seen a soybean cheese before…
        But the the biggest gains are in the the US and Canada:
        “The United States: $826 million of New Zealand’s protein products will be duty free at entry into force, with zero duties for New Zealand dairy exports within all WTO tariff quotas. There will be tariff elimination for infant formula in 10 years, and milk powders and some cheese after a transition period.”
        If we are exporting $826m to US while paying tariffs, what will we be able to export when we are on an even footing with US producers!
        Canada are also opening up 3.8% (off the top of my head) of their market to imported dairy, this is huge as Canada previously had a completely closed border on dairy with extremely high domestic prices on dairy (due in part to their quota system). This deal could open up a whole can of worms for Canadian dairy!

  23. katipo 23

    Would be nice to live in a world where wealthy nations showed the same amount of dogged determination in resolving conflicts & brokering lasting peace deals, as they do in negotiating trade deals for trans-national corporations.

  24. Bearded Git 24

    This is the real problem with TPPA.

    According to The Economist, ISDS gives foreign firms a special right to apply to a secretive tribunal of highly paid corporate lawyers for compensation whenever the government passes a law … that [negatively impacts] corporate profits — such things as discouraging smoking, protecting the environment or preventing nuclear catastrophe.

    The Economist is pro-business so when it comes out with statements like this…. be worried. More info here:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-05/trans-pacific-partnership-deal-struck-corporate-secrecy-wins-again

    • One Anonymous Bloke 24.1

      The Economist quotes existing ISDS deals.

      The summary of the TPP says that Chapter 9…

      provides for neutral and transparent international arbitration of investment disputes, with strong safeguards to prevent abusive and frivolous claims and ensure the right of governments to regulate in the public interest, including on health, safety, and environmental protection. The procedural safeguards include: transparent arbitral proceedings, amicus curiae submissions, non-disputing Party submissions; expedited review of frivolous claims and possible award of attorneys’ fees; review procedure for an interim award; binding joint interpretations by TPP Parties; time limits on bringing a claim; and rules to prevent a claimant pursuing the same claim in parallel proceedings.

      Which doesn’t exactly sound secretive. If there’s going to be effective opposition it’d better be fact-based.

      • lprent 24.1.1

        The main thing that it appears to lack (although the devil will be in the details as always) is a decent appeal process, and a general lack of reasonable and thought through precedents.

        However I really cannot see why the same things could not be done through local courts in most of the countries party to this agreement, which generally have much the same setup. For that matter by simply designating that the investment disputes are run through the courts of a country not party to the agreement. Swiss courts anyone?

        I’m afraid that I find setting up specialist courts and people to run them without oversight like the ISDS deals disturbing. Sure I can see the need and the risks (but shouldn’t companies know how to handle risk?). I just don’t think that these are the solution.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 24.1.1.1

          The sensible thing to do would be to use precedents from existing commercial case law in individual member states and international tribunals such as the WTO.

          That said, I won’t be at all surprised if the detail is full of devils with fish-hook piercings.

          • Bob 24.1.1.1.1

            It looks like that is what the initial release is inferring they will do:
            “If the New Zealand Government acts in good faith, for legitimate public policy reasons, follows a proper process and doesn’t discriminate on the basis of nationality, then the risk of an ISDS case being taken – let alone being successful – is very low. New Zealand has had ISDS provisions in international agreements, including the China FTA, going back 27 years and no case has ever been taken against it.”
            http://beehive.govt.nz/sites/all/files/TPP-Q&A-Oct-2015.pdf

            Again, the devil will be in the detail though.

            • rawshark-yeshe 24.1.1.1.1.1

              actually, the devil is in the top office at the beehive and can’t be bothered with details.

      • northshoredoc 24.1.2

        “If there’s going to be effective opposition it’d better be fact-based.”

        Yep.

        • Chooky 24.1.2.1

          how can it be “fact- based” when it is kept secret?!…lets face it …it is anti-democratic ….and it is an attempt to take over a sovereign democratic country as if it were just another company or corporate …well it is NOT!

          … the opposition to the TPP is right across the political spectrum

          ‘Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump slam Trans-Pacific Partnership deal as ‘disastrous’ & ‘terrible’

          https://www.rt.com/usa/317718-sanders-trump-candidates-tpp/

          • One Anonymous Bloke 24.1.2.1.1

            It can be fact based by being based on facts. Like the utterly compelling evidence against neo-Liberalism, Scientology or Homeopathy, for examples.

            • Chooky 24.1.2.1.1.1

              AOB ?…not making sense again

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                What we do have is the published summaries of each chapter, as per the blockquote in my 24.1.

                So either that summary is completely wrong, or the assertion of secrecy is wrong.

                That’s an example of fact-based analysis. Attacking an overt process for its secrecy is a complete waste of everybody’s time, not to mention a massive credibility fail.

                If you’re still having trouble grasping it, that’s a shame.

  25. Smilin 25

    The fanfare sounds and the triumphant corporate warriors return to the fascicle democracy that has on paper been vindicated in its actions on TPPA
    Now we watch the practice unfold, NZ, “Hawaii South Pacific” state confirmed
    Keys not changing the flag he is changing the name of our country

  26. sirpat 26

    @##$$##&&*****@@##$###$#!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!………enuff said………fkn tory bastards

  27. rod 27

    TPPA a done deal, at the end of the day , bullshit baffles brains.

  28. vto 28

    So what’s next for world growth?

    Once the temporary spurt that the TPPA will bring has ejaculated over all the bankers, what next?

    Trans Planetary Partnerspaceship ? What if there is nobody to trade with out there? What will we do?

  29. NZJester 29

    I can see the cost of medicines going up quite a bit in the future. National will increase funding a bit and put out all sorts of media patting themselves on the back for the increase. But I doubt the extra funding will be enough to cover everything at current levels. When it comes time to update the funding to match inflation they will most likely decide not to quoting the fact they recently put it up anyway.
    National loves to bring out the old line of such and such a department is receiving more funding now than it did under Labour. While it is true that they are technically receiving more money than they did under Labour, when adjusted for inflation the real funding of most departments has actually gone down. It is one of those ways to hide the truth without technically telling a lie.

    • northshoredoc 29.1

      “I can see the cost of medicines going up quite a bit in the future. ”

      How ? Take the list of medicines we currently fund in NZ- feel free to pick any one and tell me how you can see the cost of it going up.

      Just can’t see where your concerns are ?

      • Unicus 29.1.1

        This may be helpful is assessing potential medication increases under the TPPA It is a random list of some of the worlds top selling pharms and their cost to the patient in the US

        90 DAY supply in USD

        Lipitor – Cholesterol $610

        Diazoxide – Diabetes $299

        Plavix – Blood Thinner $600

        Singulair – Asthma $498

        Gleevec – Cancer $ 7000 ( now generic)

        All of these medications are fully funded by PHARMAC in NZ

        L

        • northshoredoc 29.1.1.1

          Costs of medicines are far higher in the USA than in any other country.. from a NZ perspective so what ?

          To take the top medicine on your list Lipitor the same company that supplies this medicine in the USA supplies the exact same product in NZ for $2.52.

          Let me state it again the prices for pharmaceuticals in the USA are the highest in the world the TPPA does in no way magically export these prices into NZ, even when the products have still been under patent I cannot remember a time during the last couple of decades where we have had prices as high as they are in the USA.

          • Unicus 29.1.1.1.1

            You asked for examples – you asked for facts – its not an issue for me weather you accept them or not .

            You can be sure however if not for PHARMAC big pharms would demand the same returns form New Zealand patients that they gouge from American consumers

            No magic there just science economics and shareholders first .

            As for the patient – well I guess its pay or die .

          • Unicus 29.1.1.1.2

            You asked for examples – you asked for facts – its not an issue for me weather you accept them or not .

            You can be sure however if not for PHARMAC big pharms would demand the same returns form New Zealand patients that they gouge from American consumers

            No magic there just science economics and shareholders first .

            As for the patient – well I guess its pay or die .

            • northshoredoc 29.1.1.1.2.1

              At the risk of repeating myself.

              PHARMAC has been in place now for over 25 years, they are supported by governments lead by national and Labour. They are not going anywhere under a TPPA nor are NZ medicine prices going to increase as you suggested in your post.

              I do note that other countries around the globe do not have exact replicas of PHARMAC although some do have similar agencies such as NICE in the UK and PBAC in Australia, nowhere in the world, excepting Japan and some Arab states are the prices for pharmaceuticals as high as in the USA this is an artefact of their dysfunctional health funding system.

              • Unicus

                Semantics wont win this argument .

                The TPP has placed PHARMAC’s functions in jeopardy of that there is no doubt – since there is no reliable analysis of how pharmaceutical prices here will be affected we are left to speculate using current international price modeling – the US being worst case scenario .

                My expectation is “appropriate consideration” will be available to pharmaceutical companies operating here – funded either by significant price increases to consumers or taxpayer sourced subsidy’s . Either way NZ will be the loser.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Calling NSD’s remarks “semantics” is evidence that you don’t know the meaning of the word “semantics”.

                  As for your querulous assertions, they seem predicated on the notion that all the world’s medicines are produced in the USA.

                  • northshoredoc

                    @OAB I appreciate the support from someone who is on the other side of the political divide, however, I have taken the view that apart from a very few commenters such as Miravox who want to have a serious discussion about PHARMAC that virtually all others are just trolling morons who I can no longer be bothered engaging with.

                    • Unicus

                      Its fairly typical for NP people to exit a losing argument muttering abuse – so no surprises here .

                      In future you might take your own advice and leave the topic to agencys engaged in pharms politics and those of us affected by its vicissitudes

                    • northshoredoc

                      🙄

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Too funny. If you undermine your credibility much further you’ll be in danger of forming a singularity.

                  • Unicus

                    You’d be wise to stick with the pseudonym buddy – I think I would .

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Oh, I can be just as abrasive in person.

                      I don’t see eye-to-eye with NSD on a number of issues, and they always bring strong arguments to the debate.

                      By contrast, your comments on this thread have been long on rhetoric and short on substance. You leapt from “pay-or-die” – which let’s face it, is the situation we face right now, to a slightly less emotive position, granted, but then bailing NSD up for “semantics” is well, hypocrisy, innit.

  30. The Real Matthew 30

    Copy and paste criticism of the Chinese FTA and every other FTA.

    This deal will be successful just like every other FTA NZ has signed and in a decades time people will wonder what all the fuss was about.

  31. The Chairman 32

    Another cost:

    Copyright on the likes of books, movies and music will be extended from 50 years to 70 years, which is expected to eventually cost consumers up to an extra $55m a year in higher prices.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/72731246/ministry-breaks-down-tppa-tariff-gains-dairy-meat-the-biggest-winners

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