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TPPA: Kelsey vs Mapp debating

Written By: - Date published: 11:48 am, October 7th, 2013 - 55 comments
Categories: Economy, International, trade - Tags: , , , ,

The Fabians have organised a debate between Jane Kelsey and Wayne Map this Wednesday at 6pm at the University of Auckland’s Owen Glenn Building. There is a current meeting in Indonesia that is trying to resolve the differences between states in hope of an early agreement. Meanwhile because of the secrecy surrounding negotiations there is an almost complete absence of official public information about the content of this agreement. Consequently there has also been little public debate.

My view is that for NZ it will provide intergovernmental welfare for Fonterra and farmers while destroying our rapidly expanding technical export industry.  I don’t think that this provides any kind of future for our citizens. It just leaves just as much a farm for the world as we we used to be the farm for the UK, and just as susceptible to policy changes destroying our economy.

Now I’m not exactly a campaigner against free trade agreements. I’ve been exporting most of my life and know the value of such agreements. My family background consists of people who have done the same, including out of the farms.  However this agreement doesn’t look like a trade agreement to me. It looks more like a modern day economic colonialism.

So far, the claims by people like Wayne Mapp or Phil Goff simply haven’t shown me why that is not the case. Having unaccountable tribunals retrospectively overriding our local laws to apply American style litigation doesn’t seem like liberalising the trade environment. It seems more like trying to entrench the dominance of currently advanced economies.

Putting the TPPA to the Test (PDF)

Putting the TPPA to the test


55 comments on “TPPA: Kelsey vs Mapp debating”

  1. Tracey 1

    Great news. Had an arrangement but will change it.

    kind of ironic it’s in the Owen Glen Building 😉

  2. Chooky 2

    +100%….look forward to seeing this debate put up on line

    • lprent 2.1

      That I will see if I can find out about. If needs be I’ll ask Lyn. She works in the Owen Glenn doing (amongst other things) video.

      • yeshe 2.1.1

        thx lprent .. be so good to be able to see and absorb what promises to be informative .. Go Prof Jane Kelsey ! And thanks to Wayne Mapp for not dodging on his promise.

  3. karol 3

    Excellent. Will cancel other proposed outing.

  4. Tamati 4

    Unfortunately I will be literally be meters away in another lecture theater, being anesthetised to sound of statistics.

    • greywarbler 4.1

      If you can stay awake and drop in some useful and interesting ones (stats) here you may double the value of your comments that I have seen so far.

    • Tracey 4.2

      where’s the best place to park and is Owen Glen’s building on the corner at the top of the hill and symonds st… 25 years since Ineeded to worry about parking over there.

      • Tamati 4.2.1

        I think you can park under the OGG building, although it will probably cost you half an MBA. Can probably find a park on Princess street although can get busy.

      • lprent 4.2.2

        I usually just park in the parking building under the Owen Glenn building. It is about halfway down Grafton Road on the Symonds street side of the motorway.(Grafton road was cut by the motorway).

        I’ve long since stopped looking for free parking down that way.

  5. Disraeli Gladstone 5

    Firm believer in the benefits of free trade agreements when done correctly. I also think you need some level of privacy to conduct international negotiations.

    The sheer level of secrecy, though, in the TPPA negotiations are deeply concerning. If somehow we come out of this process with a decent agreement, then, good, that’s nice. But I’m not sure that will necessarily happen. And even it it does, the ends shouldn’t justify the means necessarily.

    In other words, I think people don’t believe in free trade in at least some measure are seriously uninformed. But I think the total lack of accountability in process is the real concern and the thing we should be talking about.

    • lprent 5.1

      I like FTAs generally. This one simply doesn’t look like a FTA

      The transparency gets worse than anything I have ever seen. Apparently many of the provisions of the agreement will not be publically available for many years after signing the agreement. It looks like some of the parts of the agreement are retrospectively enforceable.

      IN NZ there won’t even be any particular public debate allowed on the agreement. It will be signed by the crown and only the snippets of legislation that are required to change will flow through to and be debated by parliament. Those bits of legislation will be forced to pass because the crown has already made us liable for damages in externally controlled tribunals with an ability to fine exorbitantly if they do not pass.

      It is completely crazy.

      • Saarbo 5.1.1

        This particular National government is probably one of the least trustable governments New Zealand has ever had, their disdain for democracy is unbelievable. The entire nation should be nervous about this particular agreement. If there is a high level of trust then the government may be able to get away with a low level of transparency, otherwise, no way.

        • leftriteleft

          Exactly the same can be said about the US of A.
          Look at the shite they are in at the moment.
          But it doesn’t seem to stop the wars and the hand out to Israel.
          Do we really want to dance with these maniacs.

      • Xtasy 5.1.2

        “IN NZ there won’t even be any particular public debate allowed on the agreement. It will be signed by the crown and only the snippets of legislation that are required to change will flow through to and be debated by parliament”

        Does this not resemble what is typical of dictatorships???

    • Tracey 5.2

      Yup. The comparrison to FTA’s is misleading and mischievious and intentional (IMO). This is far broader than a trade agreement. Large corporations dont usually get invited to contribute, and be privvy to, FTA’s.

      People are being laeblled as anti trade agreements. For my part I am anti this TPPA for reasons of secrecy and high level corporate involvement and benefit which are undisclosed. I am also concerned about the subordination of sovereign rights to corporate rights.

  6. Chooky 6

    …an agreement between cronyist capitalists with cronyist capitalists is a recipe for disaster for ordinary people

    ….that it is so secret is even more alarming

    ….it is undemocratic

  7. greywarbler 7

    Indonesia is trying to move along this TPPA, Terrible Pulsating Putrescent Absurdity (aka The Trojan Horse). Then we can condone even more of their native palm trees being chopped down, so we can get cheap nutritious feed. Also ourang outangs becoming homeless also villagers having their habitat and environment stuffed, often by wealthy citizens far away from government controls doing a sort of Highland ‘clearing’ and stealing the nation’s wealth for their sole advantage.

    But we can continue to overstock and ruin our reputation for old-fashioned, good green feed farming and put more cattle in barns because it’s easier for one person to manage the herd of 1,000 there. Sort of thing, numbers may differ.

    And that is only one of the numerous ways we can spoil our own country and living, along with those of others in these other countries who will be as helpless against us in our naked greed, as we are against theirs. Equality of greed, and devil take the hindmost.

    And what say will NZ citizens have in stopping things we don’t like of TPPA? What say when we are prevented from starting something we do like by TPPA? Nix. What moral pinnacles will we be able to stand on in future to show what a good little country we have that we are proud of? We can hardly be proud now, and things will get worse.

    Businesses could try to sell bits off the top of Aoraki and other high or low points of our landscape for souveniers or destroy by mining despite Maori protest, and given them ‘furriners’ and our very own quislings’ way, we won’t have any pinnacles at all from which to wave our flag. We have never had one that represents well what we are and think, and soon we will have lost our chance to think at all.

  8. Tracey 8

    Glad to see it’s happening. Hats off to Mike Smith for bringing it to fruition. And to Jane and wayne for getting into the arena.

  9. Tracey 9

    Pay rises by CEO’s far outstripped that of their employees. Surprise surprise. In the tough times workers take a cut or slim rise, CEO’s business as usual. THAT’s the mentality of large corporates that bothers me about this agreement.

  10. George D 10

    Can we get the former Minister of Foreign Affairs to attend? The other one.

    I’d like for Phil to come along and participate in this important conversation. I’m rapidly learning how the impact of this will be far wider than simply IT and pharmaceuticals.

  11. Well, one of the most important things to understand is it’s not really mainly about trade. I guess the way to think about it is as a corporate Trojan horse. The agreement has 29 chapters, and only five of them have to do with trade. The other 24 chapters either handcuff our domestic governments, limiting food safety, environmental standards, financial regulation, energy and climate policy, or establishing new powers for corporations.

    And then there’s a whole set of very worrisome issues relating to Internet freedom. Through sort of the backdoor of the copyright chapter of TPP is a whole chunk of SOPA, the Stop Online Privacy Act, that activism around the country successfully derailed a year ago. Think about all the things that would be really hard to get into effect as a corporation in public, a lot of them rejected here and in the other 11 countries, and that is what’s bundled in to the TPP. And every country would be required to change its laws domestically to meet these rules. The binding provision is, each country shall ensure the conformity of domestic laws, regulations and procedures.


  12. geoff 12

    What I don’t understand is why anyone on the left would accommodate the possibility that a FTA would be beneficial to anyone except the vested interests.

    • thechangling 12.1

      I agree. All FTA’s have done in New Zealand is create a huge permanent pool of unemployed people as our manufacturing sector has contracted and the service sector has expanded. This will never change until we restart making more of what we consume and block out imports to protect local jobs.
      Tariffs, quotas and trade restrictions protect local jobs in the secondary sector while the primary and tertiary sectors (dairy, meat, produce and coffee shops) will never soak up 160,000 people on the dole.
      FTA’s are as insane as the TPPA.
      Thank neo liberalism for that!

  13. Xtasy 13

    “My view is that for NZ it will provide intergovernmental welfare for Fonterra and farmers while destroying our rapidly expanding technical export industry. I don’t think that this provides any kind of future for our citizens. It just leaves just as much a farm for the world as we we used to be the farm for the UK, and just as susceptible to policy changes destroying our economy.”

    Never a truer word spoken, and that is exactly where I come from also, as the primitive exploitation of soil, water and cattle or crops, to maximise output at a low quality and high quantity level, but at the same time neglect the knowledge economy, that is the most idiotic economic recipe for New Zealand!

    Surely more can be done, more is in pockets being done (even at NZ research institutes and tertiary establishments), and that should be getting damned more support and funding than farming already gets.

    It will even support farming, if done well, if we start producing higher quality and value added dairy and other products, which nations in Europe have done for decades or centuries.

    The biggest threat for New Zealand is IGNORANCE and adherence to outdated thinking and policies, and the ones at the helm in Wellington are the worst offenders, like a drunken captain at the helm of a rudderless ship. Sack the bastards, the sooner the better, for your own country’s sake, please!

    • Xtasy 13.1

      I was “blue” last night, now I am “yellow” again. How bizarre, not that I wish to complain, I like both colours, but blue more so, that though does not at all speak for my party preferences.

  14. Andrew Wallace 14

    One of the bigger threats of the TPPA is the continuing loss of any ‘equality’ in NZ pay scales. We don’t score well in comparison with most of W. Europe – we follow too closely the disastrous UK/US model. With the corporates likely to be running the TPPA the unequality stakes will only get worse. Two recent articles of interest re the ratios of CEO pay to their average worker: the JCPenney CEO in the USA being paid 1795 times!! his lowest-paid worker, and the Swiss attempting to limit CEO pay to 12 times company average pay:
    and: http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/10/05

  15. Tracey 15

    “It is understood agriculture, intellectual property and the rules around state-owned enterprises are the major sticking points in the TPP talks. There are also concerns that with Japan joining the talks there may be pressure to exclude some areas that Japan wanted to continue to protect.Key said he sensed the Japanese wanted to move forward with TPP, which was one plank in the reform of their economy promised by Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.Froman told a press conference at Apec yesterday that on TPP “the finish line is in sight”.Media reports suggested yesterday that Japan was looking at eliminated tariffs on some goods previously considered untouchable, such as rice.Wheat, dairy – crucial to New Zealand –  sugar, beef and pork are other goods where Japan’s government is under pressure from its farming lobby to maintain protection.”

    Does this mean the us subsidies are also disappearing or have they changed how they subsidised to avoid any tppa definition and therefore maintain them. I understand tge us govt underwrites any loss suffered by certain sectors of their agricultural community.

  16. Paul 16

    Goff supports the TPPA.
    “Labour’s trade spokesman and a former Trade Minister Phil Goff says he understands why the Government is not releasing text of the Trans Pacific Partnership agreement but says it could be doing more to communicate with New Zealanders.”
    It’s good Labour have appointed one of their neo-liberal disciples onto the Trade portfolio. Guess he’ll be working at the WTO soon as a reward.

    And at the end of the article John Key presumes to speak for us all again

    He said a small group was opposed to the TPP but they were opposed to the China FTA and to free trade generally.
    “I don’t that is consistent with the view of the public. I think the New Zealand public generally speaking have seen the benefits of free trade.”

    And the Herald pimps for the TPP in its editorial.

    Excuse me for being cynical, but after 2 years of barely any media scrutiny of this massive issue, suddenly 2 articles in National’s propaganda outlet. Did someone ring Roughan and Murphy and tell them the TPPA needed a bit of a push?

  17. Sable 17

    We have traded UK colonialism for US colonialism, its really that simple compliments of both National and Labour.

  18. Tracey 18

    I have a reluctant partner I am trying to convince to attend, anyone got an idea of how long the debate is scheduled

    • lprent 18.1

      Typically the debate will be something like 30-60 minutes (more like 60 minutes in this case). However the questions may drag on.

      Lyn will be filming (yay!) so I told her to expect about 2 hours.

      • karol 18.1.1

        Excellent! Great news about the filming. Thanks to Lyn.

        • lprent

          Yeah. We won’t stream (this has all been a bit last minute). Got permission from participants yesterday and Lyn generously volunteered her time and some gear (with a bit of pushing)

          I’ll transcode, edit (with a bit of help), put up for participants to view, and hopefully have available for general release during the weekend.

  19. vto 19

    Imo, the best way to conduct a thorough debate covering all the issues in depth is by way of a controlled on-line debate where each person has time to consider the other’s issues and respond. Maybe this could be done in addition to the live in-person debate…

    • Tracey 19.1

      provided they speak and get rebuttal opportunities, in-person debating cant be beaten. Particularly if the participants are of good quality.

    • lprent 20.1

      Wayne M pointed to the FTA with China effectively prevented GFC effects in NZ

      Jane K pointing out that the tariff drops will be over a 30 years period.

    • lprent 20.2

      Wayne is pointing out the wider part of the diplomatic initative, with both the TPP and RCP in play. Idea is that eventually they merge.

      China FTA was 12 years for the argricultural tariff.

      Wayne is pointing out to Jane that both were wrong about the China FTA. He was optimistic, but also was too low.

    • lprent 20.3

      Jane points out the risk problem with agriculture base of trade in NZ. 70% commodity and processed primary products feels frigging dangerous to me.

      Basically we don’t have problems selling food now..

      Risks to the rest of the economy are pretty high. Using Pharmac as an example with breaking the hard cap and “due process”. Too much emphasis on that.

      Talking about the binding provisions especially with SOEs.

    • lprent 20.4

      Wayne briefly looks at Pharmac. Unconvinced. Most value from patent period as generics.

      Looks at the paradell imports. Copyright. Require negoitiaters from NZ to be tough.

      At risk from Fonterra. Agribusiness risks to us.

      Treaty risks because of the binding nature to subsequent governments. Which comes into the sovereignty. Talking about the executive control. Trade treaties do. Not voting for the legislation effectively drops out the treaty.

      Umm the fast follower model.

    • lprent 20.5

      Jane asks what advantage?

      But looks at the investor tribunials using the phillip morris antismoking plain package threats in aussie. Eli Lilley vs Canada. Fracking against Quebec moratorium. Actions designed to intimidate govenments.

      Pointing out the risk factors through a range of areas for NZ. Mining permits for instance.

      Talking about the lack of transperancy to the public from the NZ Govt.

      Looking at the parliament. Can’t see the legislation being refused if the agreement has already been signed

    • lprent 20.6

      Wayne point out that economioc agreements are there to bind governments.

      Wayne arguing that trade providing the pacific rim with a growth path. Looking at the past 30 years, is this where we want to for the rest of the century. Thinks it is.

      Jane arguing that the US in particular are running everything from business as advice.

      Looking at implications of such a binding agreement on soveignty. If there is another GFC, can’t do balance of payments changes. etc etc…

      IP innovation lockouts …

      Generational lockins.

      • karol 20.6.1

        Thanks to all for organising this. Saw you tapping on your tablet, Lynn. Was about to go and say Hi at the end, but you seemed to disappear out a back door.

        It was a very useful debate, with both speakers very knowledgeable, but coming from a different perspective. Also, Kelsey seemed to have a better knowledge of the nitty gritty of what’s in the TPP from her travels, leaks, talking with negotiators, etc.

        Very good question from penny Bright about democracy being the will of the people. Wayne’s answer was still showing a top down perspective – let the business people decide then let people discuss it – though he didn’t seem to want a lot more transparency.

        The will of the people would see the people more engaged in drawing up the deals.

        The future, involves taking account of climate and environment, as Kelsey said, and less not more reliance on ag trade. More investment in IT etc. More innovation, less being hamstrung by corporate design regulations.

        We would be better to keep the pressure on for transparency, and if necessary reject the TPP, than sign up to it. And it looks like there’s pressure going on from different countries in different ways.

        • lprent

          Was about to go and say Hi at the end, but you seemed to disappear out a back door.

          Yeah, helping Lyn move those bloody great cameras and tripods back to the studio. Penalty cost for late late notice…. 🙂

          Then back to OG3, where I got locked in. Bloody magnetic locks.

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