Truth, boomer memes and the next election campaign

54 comments on “Truth, boomer memes and the next election campaign ”

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1. Sanctuary 1

   26 October 2019 at 9:20 am

   I was talking to friend of mine about this the other day. He is a quite well known MMO gamer and in his own modest way, reasonably respected in the online world.

   He pointed out that Facebook allows you to tailor ads that focus on your individual prejudices in way that amplifies and weaponises them. I asked him want could be done to regulate social media. His response? Well, first remember this is a guy who lives online and is as future embracing and modern and tech savvy as you can get. He has thought about these things alot.

   And his solution?

   Ban political advertising of any kind on all social media platforms at least one year out from a general election. A blanket ban removes any excuse from the likes of Facebook that it is too hard to police.

   Print and broadcast is fine. It allows you to get out your policies and message as we always have.
   • Ad 1.1

     26 October 2019 at 12:33 pm

     Facebook own't allow that.

     Hard to see any western-style democracy going for it.

     You'd need Chinese-level censorship to achieve it.
   • Dukeofurl 1.2

     26 October 2019 at 1:27 pm

     We have a 'sort of ban law' now. Political advertising now has to have an authoriser statement. Doesnt matter if its directly asking to Vote National or its a 3rd party campaign, all types of 'political themes' must have name and address of authoriser. yes it only applies to 3 months? before election day.

     But how do we get facbook to remove those ads that dont ?
     • mickysavage 1.2.1

       27 October 2019 at 9:39 am

       Only if it is above the threshold which is $13.2k. That is a heap of facebook pushing. There is also the complication that commentary is not included.
2. JustMe 2

   26 October 2019 at 9:29 am

   Between now and the next election I am sure we can be well assured that the NZ National Party will do its damndest to send out deliberately mis-leading advertising discrediting this government. It should be considered their(National's) Modus Operandi.

   Clearly National will demean itself to any level just to get back into government. It just shows how we must stare clear of them at the voting booths.

   To date I wouldn't trust a National MP as far as I would like to throw one.
   • Wensleydale 2.1

     26 October 2019 at 6:09 pm

     Off a cliff?
     • Incognito 2.1.1

       26 October 2019 at 8:21 pm

       Please, don't.
3. Dukeofurl 3

   26 October 2019 at 9:53 am

   " Conservative Party produced a social media onslaught claiming that the Brexit Bill had been passed."

   The image provided says” the deal” had passed , which it had. It was a requirement of parliament that an indicative vote be passed, and it was . This is what eluded May , and eluded Johnston before as well so is some achievement.

   Surely you cant be claiming the follow on 100 page Brexit Details Bill not having passed -it could take a week , a month who knows- constitutes a falsehood ?
   • Incognito 3.1

     26 October 2019 at 10:18 am

     Unattended blowtorch on roof makes it unsafe to swim in Viaduct Basin area

     Can you parse that?
     • Dukeofurl 3.1.1

       26 October 2019 at 10:29 am

       I have no idea either ? Is this even connected to Political Falsehoods
       • Incognito 3.1.1.1

         26 October 2019 at 11:21 am

         If you answer the question with an affirmative, you’ve understood what the OP is about IMO and how these things work in an election campaign. If you answer the question with a negative, I believe you did not get the gist of the OP; same if you don’t know how to answer. In other words, paraphrasing George Lakoff, don’t think of a blowtorch 😉
         • Dukeofurl 3.1.1.1.1

           26 October 2019 at 1:52 pm

           European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill: Second Reading

           Ayes: 329 (Tellers: Stuart Andrew, Iain Stewart)

           Noes: 299 (Tellers: Nic Dakin, Nick Smith)

           Question accordingly agreed to and Bill read a second time.
           • mickysavage 3.1.1.1.1.1

             27 October 2019 at 9:45 am

             By every definition the law has not passed. It still requires committee stage, third reading, House of Lords consideration and royal assent.
             • Dukeofurl …

               27 October 2019 at 1:01 pm

               Mickey , you should read the source documents to get a better understanding of what has happened and whats to come. The Brexit Deal vote has passed !

               "Withdrawal Agreement Debate (22 October 2019)

               2nd reading Aye 329 No 299

               Approval Rapid Timetable ( procedural)

               Aye 308 No 322

               Technical Withdrawal Amendments as Regulations (23 October 2019)

               Repeal of Freedom of Movement

               Repeal of EU Regulatory Oversight

               Repeal of EU Financial Services Regulations

               All passed.

               In reality its a procedural nightmare for outsiders as thereare cascading series of Bills, Procedural, indicative votes and Amendments to regulations votes.

               The Commons Library has spelt out here

               "What are the UK’s requirements for ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement?"

               In July 2018 Parliament passed the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (‘the 2018 Act’). Section 13 of that Act states that a Withdrawal Agreement treaty cannot be ratified unless four conditions have been met:

               • copies of both the negotiated Withdrawal Agreement and the Framework for the Future Relationship have been laid before both Houses, with a “statement that political agreement has been reached”[ Done]
               • the House of Commons has, on a motion of a Minister, approved those documents (the so-called ‘Meaningful Vote’[Done]
               • the House of Lords has had the opportunity, on a motion of a Minister, to “take note of” those documents[Done]; and
               • a further Act of Parliament to implement the Withdrawal Agreement has been passed.[In progress]

               Another guide for the meaningful Vote

               "Section 13 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (theWithdrawal Act) sets out a scheme whereby the Government must secure explicit Parliamentary approval for any “deal” reached between the UK and EU negotiators.

               The Deal vote has passed ! What is now happening the ( First) Bill required for the Brexit legislation is procedding , and a whole pile of other follow on bills can be done as well.

               As is typical of the Remainers, first they said they wanted to stop No deal Exit, and yet when Johnson had his revised 'Deal with EU passed' the remainers are still obstructing the legislation process, nor do they want an election, as the real aim is for a 2nd Referendum or more explicitly from Lib Dems -'just cancel Brexit'
               • Incognito …

                 27 October 2019 at 1:59 pm

                 You seem to be overlooking a fairly crucial four-letter word but irrespective, it comes down on how you parse the tweet.
                 • Dukeofurl …

                   27 October 2019 at 7:37 pm

                   I probably have been long winded and in a round about way saying 'The deal' has a specific meaning for Brexit .

                   People in UK would understand it, as meaning Parliament has voted for the Full Deal as arranged by Johnson and EU. This had to happen before the Withdrawal Bill could be debated and the whole attendant Regulations and Bills that follow could happen.

                   A couple of weeks back Mickey had another misunderstanding about a No deal Brexit not paying the 'Divorce costs'. There is nothing wrong with walking from a conditional agreement and not be liable for a cent. The Brexit deal only became unconditional once it was approved by parliament, and agreement to pay the costs over 5 years or so- there is a phase out of the Customs Union as well, so that much will happen on Brexit day now the deal is done and the legislation is underway
         • JO 3.1.1.1.2

           26 October 2019 at 8:17 pm

           
4. Pat 4

   26 October 2019 at 10:39 am

   The status quo (including the MSM) was never going to roll over and surrender and they are fighting for survival.

   It may explain the proliferation of protest throughout the world
5. AB 5

   26 October 2019 at 10:48 am

   Thanks for tying these events together Mickey. The contrast between the intellectually flabby, self-serving horror of Claire Robinson's defence of dishonesty, and the principled clarity of AOC's attack on the Zuck has been doing my head in. Capitalism throws up monsters.
6. TootingPopularFront 6

   26 October 2019 at 11:42 am

   I assume this is the same National Party that got this banned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDscbVWRBCw?

   [Corrected typo again in user handle]
7. Ad 7

   26 October 2019 at 12:37 pm

   If the left aren't prepared to play to what new media requires, they will keep losing.

   New media aren't going to go away.

   We'll need more than Jacinda's wedding to give us power in the media to overcome the power of distortions.

   What we need is convincing results from a delivering government.
   • Incognito 7.1

     26 October 2019 at 9:19 pm

     What we need is convincing results from a delivering government.

     You have just defined the battleground of the coming and in fact all election campaigns 😉
   • Sacha 7.2

     27 October 2019 at 9:37 am

     New media does not 'require' lying any more than old media does.
8. RedBaronCV 8

   26 October 2019 at 12:56 pm

   I saw somewhere that facebook tests it's in new stuff in New Zealand because we have most of our friend links in country and don't get the same level of tech scrutiny. Don't know if that is still so..

   I'd agree with ban the lot on the internet – closely followed by a copy of the ads running on parliament TV and a voluntary effort from the left on memes.

   Imagine some of this is already going on – spoke to someone who was all fired up about Jacinda having the baby at the UN- seemed to think that she had taken the child into the business part rather than a family catch up at the end captured by press. Voluntary or not?
9. alwyn 9

   26 October 2019 at 1:55 pm

   Out of curiosity can you tell me whether one would be allowed to run an ad that said.

   "The Labour led Government promised, in the KiwBuild scheme, to build 1,000 houses in the year to June 2019, another 5,000 in the year to 2020, and a further 10,000 in the year to 2021". Then could you point out that the real numbers were nothing like that.

   Or do you think such ads should be banned?

   https://www.labour.org.nz/faq_kiwibuild
   • Ad 9.1

     26 October 2019 at 4:40 pm

     Anyone expecting truth in an election campaign is a moron.
     • Wensleydale 9.1.1

       26 October 2019 at 6:20 pm

       I don't think anyone realistically expects it… but it would be nice.
     • Stuart Munro. 9.1.2

       26 October 2019 at 9:32 pm

       I guess the wretched current generation never read their Blake:

       A truth that's told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent.

       This was the rule of political discourse prior to Key's lie fest, which took us into the post truth era. The tragedy was how pathetically the MSM folded.
   • Wensleydale 9.2

     26 October 2019 at 6:26 pm

     Anyone lying by omission, twisting the facts, employing fudged statistics or being purposefully disingenuous should be pilloried, irrespective of their political loyalties. Wearing a red rosette (or green, or black) shouldn't give you a free pass to tell porkies.
   • Incognito 9.3

     26 October 2019 at 6:54 pm

     As a man of facts, I thought you would be keener on an ad comparing what the Government is delivering compared to what the three National governments have done over nine years.

     This Government is not trying to hide the facts: https://www.hud.govt.nz/news-and-resources/statistics-and-research/government-build-programme-housing-dashboard/

     I’ll leave it to you to list the ‘accomplishments’ of the Opposition in this area.

     BTW, we don’t run ads on this site but we do frown on people who stir up shit for the sake of it.

     Did you make a submission to Mallard’s inquiry because that’s where your hypothetical question belongs IMO, not here on TS.
     • alwyn 9.3.1

       26 October 2019 at 7:22 pm

       I am sure that the Government parties will be making the comparisons you suggest.

       Well almost sure. I'm not really sure that they will want to bring up Housing.

       Or how the line to Mt Roskill was going to be in by 2021. Still they can tell us how they planted a billion trees. And how they stopped foreigners buying land.

       And lots and lots of things. You don't really think they need me to help them do you?

       I considered making a submission to the Select Committee. Then I saw how the mad duck reacted to the submission from Clare Robinson. The "Right Honourable" Trevor certainly wasn't putting on an "honourable" display was he?

       Was your second to last line also intended for Macro here?

       https://thestandard.org.nz/truth-boomer-memes-and-the-next-election-campaign/#comment-1663394
       • Incognito 9.3.1.1

         26 October 2019 at 8:05 pm

         You see, Alwyn, I think you comment here to shit stir. Nice try to deflect to another comment by another commenter, but to me it makes it look even more like you are shit stirring. Facts, Alwyn, facts; you can watch the progress chart here for the next nine years: https://www.mpi.govt.nz/funding-and-programmes/forestry/one-billion-trees-programme/about-the-one-billion-trees-programme
   • McFlock 9.4

     27 October 2019 at 4:49 pm

     Was kiwibuild NZFirst and Green policy during the election? If not, then the government-to-be didn't promise it.

     If you are referring to the details announced after the government was formed, then it would probably be fine – depending on whether a "plan" is a "promise" along the lines of "whatever it takes".
     • Ngungukai 9.4.1

       28 October 2019 at 11:22 pm

       Don't think NZF was backing Kiwibuild, they had their own Housing Policy.
10. Macro 10

    26 October 2019 at 2:01 pm

    Well I'm hoping to see lots of ads claiming National will cut Superannuation by half, send grandchildren to feed crocodiles, plan to vote for an increased tax on large SUVs, and introduce a CGT on the family home and farm.

    Mind you this is nothing new, dancing cossacks, hammer and sickles, and unlabeled graphs spring to mind*.

    *Oh yes! Those were run by the National Party.
11. Ad 11

    26 October 2019 at 2:08 pm

    Fox News is so powerful because it enables its opinion show Fox and Friends to dominate all other Fox shows.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/oct/25/fox-news-watching-what-i-learned

    Fox news isn't going to go away either.

    There needs to be a left-leaning equivalent to Fox News with a lot more opinion and a lot less reliance on facts.
    • Dukeofurl 11.1

      27 October 2019 at 8:26 am

      In US there is . MSNBC. It rates very well as a cable network, just behind Fox
12. Stuart Munro. 12

    26 October 2019 at 2:17 pm

    Difficult as the issue is, of deliberately fake and misleading ads, Facebook is properly reluctant to become the arbiter of political truth. That determination must be made outside social media providers, in the NZ context presumably by the likes of the electoral commission. The truth having been ascertained or objectionableness determined, it is then appropriate to expect social media to take down content expeditiously, and to that end, to provide access to posted material to electoral authorities so that they can make such determinations in a timely fashion.
    • Dukeofurl 12.1

      27 October 2019 at 8:33 am

      NZ Advertisning Standards has already rules against National Party ads on Facebook that were misleading

      "The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) found against a Facebook advertisement promoted by the party attacking the Government's proposed 'feebate policy' and the accompanying fuel efficiency standard. The ASA said it was "likely to mislead consumers".

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115736503/ad-watchdog-rules-national-party-ad-misleading

      The rules exist already to have them 'banned' and the advertiser 'shamed' – not that the NP has any shame.

      Im very surprised readers here seem totally unaware of NZs regulatory regime, the ASA is a voluntary body and cant be seen as government censorship ( but we have that for different forms of film/media and literature)
      • Stuart Munro. 12.1.1

        29 October 2019 at 12:43 am

        It's quaint really, that a voluntary body controls such activity, and may go some way to explain a lack of cut through with Facebook. Professional censures are most effective within professions, and likely neither the publishing Gnats nor Facebook are part of that group.

        Nor is advertising the only problematic possibility with Facebook; the formation of communities of interest is much more effective than ads, which are invariably annoying even to people somewhat susceptible to their message.

        Both conventional media and advertising would benefit from a stronger sanction regime for bullshitting, even when it wears the shrunken and wrinkled figleaf of "opinion". No-one argues that a competent press is indispensable to a properly functioning democracy, but, like housing, no-one is taking substantial action that could conceivably fix it.
13. Wensleydale 13

    26 October 2019 at 6:18 pm

    Claire Robinson is almost hilariously awful. "Political advertisements should be allowed to be inaccurate or misleading." Erm… why? People are expected to make an educated decision about who to vote for based upon reason, logic, facts, and actual policy, not "Tee hee, look at this smarmy bit of selective editing we've done that makes David Parker appear to hate farmers!" Commercial operators get done for false advertising all the time. Why should election campaigns be any different? If anything, they should be held to a higher standard. They're all supposed to be grown-ups after all.

    Of course, National probably won't win if they can't tell a bunch of lies and terrify Joe Public into submission. "Labour are going to confiscate your dairy herds and turn them into biofuel so Green MPs can drive to work without feeling guilty!"
    • greywarshark 13.1

      29 October 2019 at 10:31 am

      Wensleydale +100

      This is the sort of thinking emanating from the manure pits of the Conservatives and the Brexit organisers in the UK where the mantra is, what is a bit of exaggeration (lying) between friends to influence the public ie stacks of money to become available to the NHS, and probably other sweet-sounding encouragers.

      And the public have fallen for this s..t. A building will fall when it is built on or with sand, and there is no strength in a system where the meaning of truth is open to discussion.

      Over there the Conservatives have worked out how to extract more money from the doings of government. It is a giant cash cow for the neoliberal economisers (economic tightening for you but not for those with power and influence).

      And basically orchestrated by a liar and apparently a crook whose name sounds like forage (which has scavenge as a synonym), who is at the centre of this coup, with big pay-offs coming to him and the rest of the moneyed class; the success of their cunning plan wil be named the Huge Heist (a suitable noun as it comes from the USA which is the elephant in the room about to sit wherever it pleases).

      We are right to look askance at Professor Claire Robinson, College of Creative Arts, Massey University, with twitter handle Spinprofessor! She apparently finds our political system an amusing, suitable toy to play with which attracts clickbait and notoriety. In present university priorities, getting published for anything gives brownie points but that thinking is biting them in the bum if it results in their being brought into contempt and discredit. Her comments lack probity and they reflect on Massey University that appears to be at war within itself as to where probity lies.
      • Drowsy M. Kram 13.1.1

        29 October 2019 at 11:20 am

        Agree with what you (and Wensleydale) write, Grey, but how about this blast from the past [2012]? All spin doctors are 'evil', but some are more evil than others?

        "The research by Massey University Associate Professor Claire Robinson finds that the Herald, Herald on Sunday, Dominion Post and Sunday Star-Times all exhibited substantial bias in their selection and use of images during the election campaign, most of it in favour of Prime Minister John Key.

        “Labour and Phil Goff have real grounds to feel they were unfairly treated in print during the last election campaign,” Dr Robinson says."

        https://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/about-massey/news/article.cfm?mnarticle_uuid=48735398-FC90-8334-7A51-09FCFDB95B7D

        And then there’s a study, written by Victoria Mappleback and published by Royal Holloway University, suggesting that we are increasingly becoming our own spin doctors, casting ourselves “in as positive a hue as possible.”

        "We have become our own spin doctors and constantly want people to find out what is going on in our lives, from the incredibly mundane to personal decisions and choices that would have otherwise been private."

        https://dzone.com/articles/are-we-all-spin-doctors-now
        • Wensleydale 13.1.1.1

          29 October 2019 at 12:17 pm

          Granny Herald and others exhibited brazen bias in favour of John Key?! Stop the presses! I'm sure Professor Robinson is reasonably good at her job, but you don't need a university degree to observe the blatant shitfuckery that passes for political journalism in papers like the NZ Herald. You need functioning eyes and a basic capacity for critical thought. Actually, you could cobble together a rough approximation of the Herald's take on our political landscape by simply scrawling "Labour bad! National good!" in crayon across the front page.
        • greywarshark 13.1.1.2

          29 October 2019 at 12:18 pm

          DmK

          I think these are two different spins. Prof Claire can place herself as objective and scientific and non-partisan but beware Claire you are playing with our hearts and minds. There has been examination of objective scientific thought as to whether it is real objectivity; it has been probed and debunked, showing that in the decision to pursue some scientific object, there is bias at the start in the choice, so always there.

          And – We are all spin doctors. Interesting point – why would young women and, I understand, men of uncertain age, send photos of themselves naked on the internet? Exposing themselves in so many ways. Why do women wear make-up even when they are young and at the height of their beauty.?

          Is there a society-wide conformity of fashionable behaviour with a constantly changing shape and people have to keep checking in on their devices to see what is 'in' and out, now, and what their friends have decided. People are more inclined to reveal bits of their lives, thoughts etc so as to be interesting to others, in a swirling world of peers who seem to be in the swim, and if you aren't 'with it' you are out.

          'casting ourselves “in as positive a hue as possible.” – that is an interesting choice of words. What is real, are we in the picture, are we 'casting ourselves' in a reality show. When you can't get a job because the boss and team don't think 'you fit' the zeitgeist of the group, then it is ever more important to know the tone of the people you work with and be able to play along.

          This of course has a serious effect on the personal growth of the individual, and their thinking. Are people able to think for themselves any more, make judgments, or like an intelligent older friend of mine, do they happily listen every day to Leighton Smith who seems to express their opinions well? Or does he form them, where does the line occur? This type of mental process, or lack of it, poses a problem when change is needed, and thought about it is required. Is anyone at home up there?
14. RedBaronCV 14

    26 October 2019 at 8:38 pm

    Are National going to tell us their plans if they decide to privatise all schools and hospitals and remove employment rights to holidays and sick leave? Can we ask? can we put out ads doing this?

    They don't usually bother to tell us their plans – adding a million people to Auckland without money for housing or infrastructure.

    [Nice one but could you please provide a link showing that National added a million people to Auckland without money for housing or infrastructure? Otherwise, it would like you are making up shit – Incognito]
    • Incognito 14.1

      26 October 2019 at 9:29 pm

      See my Moderation note @ 8:38 PM.
    • RedBaronCV 14.2

      27 October 2019 at 1:51 am

      okay the million was a loose estimate based on 7-8 years of inwards migration of around 75000 to 130000 . I have seen articles where outwards and returning kiwis are spread over the country but the new to new zealand tends to hit auckland hardest.

      the interesting question became how many people are there in Auckland, well even stats NZ only seems to have only an estimate of about 1.6m (which it seems to be revising up and down by around a 80,000) and in 2006 it was 1.3m, so okay not 1million.

      In total Nz looks to have gone from 4,2 million in 2008 to 4,8 roughly in 2018 . as to the money I'm not sure that anyone saw Nact building any social housing much – auckland or anywhere else,
      • Dukeofurl 14.2.1

        27 October 2019 at 1:07 pm

        Red Baron the numbers you are looking for are these

        "From 1971 to 2013, a period spanning more than 40 years, Auckland has outgrown the rest of New Zealand combined – adding 650,000 people vs 575,000.

        and 1991-2017 it was 410,000.

        A round figure from the 1990s- 2020 is 500,000. This is the one to remember. Your time frame was too short and the total was out by a factor of 2x. Its still a huge number
        • Incognito 14.2.1.1

          27 October 2019 at 1:56 pm

          
15. newsense 15

    27 October 2019 at 6:52 pm

    Clare Robinson is an academic. She's totally neutral. Get it right!
    • Incognito 15.1

      27 October 2019 at 8:08 pm

      That sounds like one of those ads she’s advocating.
      • Sacha 15.1.1

        27 October 2019 at 11:22 pm

        Totally.
        • greywarshark 15.1.1.1

          29 October 2019 at 12:21 pm

          Absolutely.

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