Statement from James Shaw on Kennedy Graham and David Clendon
“Kennedy Graham and David Clendon have this evening decided to withdraw their names from the Green Party’s 2017 party list.
“We are disappointed they’ve made this decision, though we respect their right to do so.
“The Green Party is fortunate to have high calibre and energetic candidates on the party list, who are campaigning hard for the party.
“With this decision, candidates including Hayley Holt, Teall Crossen, Teanau Tuiono, Leilani Tamu, Matt Lawrey and Elizabeth Kerekere all move up two places on the Green Party list.
“We are looking forward to bringing these talented new candidates into Parliament at the election and will continue campaigning hard on our top issues of clean water, ending poverty, and climate action.
“I want to thank both David and Kennedy for their service to the Green Party. We wish David and Kennedy all the best,” said Mr Shaw.
Melissa Lee – as may be discerned from the screenshot above – has not been demoted for doing something seriously wrong as Minister of ... 
This looks like a spectacular act of self-harm.
I am disgusted at their indulgent destructiveness. Arseholes.
+ 1 yep me too
And me too.
Absolutely, vile little creatures.
“”We do not believe that lying to a public agency – Winz, IRD or any other – can ever be condoned,” the two MPs said in a joint statement tonight.
They said civil disobedience was sometimes justified, but this should be limited to “fundamental breaches of human rights” such as torture, genocide or apartheid.
“It does not stretch to the adequacy of an income benefit,” they said”
Sounds more like a principled stand than indulgent destructiveness to me, but I don’t vote Greens so its not my world falling to pieces.
That´s the trouble with abstract moral systems. Everything´s black and white. They don´t take into account the circumstances in which a misdeed is committed.
I had sympathy for Metu’s position with the benefit but subsequently the voting fraud means she cannot be credible as a leader, in addition her continuing justification of her actions emphasizes her unsuitability to be even an MP.
As for Weka below The twits on twitter include Trump and not me thank goodness LOL
It’s the way they went about it. No problem at all with them deciding to resign over principles.
Unbelievable. Not only for what this does to Turei, but the Green Party doesn’t do this shit in public because the whole party is based on relationship.
Good news is they’re getting an absolute slaying on Twitter, so I hope that this strengthens Turei and the Greens step up another notch. May as well go for it now.
Well Dave Clendon isn’t much of a loss I think the party has always been a little sus about Kenny.
We shall see what happens. My guess/hope is the vote should hold up.
Although I think Meyt was a little naive if she didn’t think she would be in the middle of this shit storm after her speech.
The Greens have a very strong list but “Greens in crisis” headlines are never good.
James and Meyt, be bold Go for it, announce some really radical leftie policies now you have their attention.
She said the other day that she expected there to be a huge reaction to the speech but not things like going after her mother. And as Shaw has just said, it’s not that the 2 MPs are leaving on principle, it’s *how they’ve done it.
And agreed, I reckon the true move now is go bold.
Yes grab the Leftie vote. Lets face that is where the majority of the membership sits.
Might get the activists out there, I now I will probably get of my arse now
Funny, it seems it’s the same feeling graham and the other one have about metiria. It’s not what she’s done, it’s how she’s gone about telling everyone and justifying it that has caused this issue.
What’s wrong with how she has acted in the past month?
I said this morning-Metiria needs to step down, much though I like her. Genter or Davidson will be perfect replacements.
if this doesn’t happen we will have “a fraudster and a liar” all the way to 23rd Sept and that will damage the Left. (I vote Green)
yes dear.
cause the fraudster Bill English in National is totally acceptable.
the work place harasser dude from balclutha, National, is also totally acceptable.
the revealer of private details to the public, Ms. Bennett is also totally acceptable.
oh my, the concern, i can see it drip down my computer. drip drip drip.
seriously this whole fucking election is nothing but kabuki theatre.
I hate saying that Metiria needs to step down-I will still vote Green whether she is co-leader or not. But the fraudster-liar thing is threatening the chance of getting rid of this horrendous National Party junta.
yes. dear.
Bearded Git I can see your pont even if Sabine can’t and never will.
i can see the point. and i don’t give a shit.
i will rather vote for legalize aotearoa then vote for labour this year. And if the female leader of the Green party is forced to resign over issues for which people in the National party Member and PM/VicePM get elevated then i will not vote for the Green Party either, as clearly we have stopped voting for something, and now just vote for joksters that make us feel good. Mainly feel good about nothing.
So frankly it is you who don’t get it.
But i will not vote, nor support in any which way a bunch of empty suits. Labour in the last week has finally given up pretense and are now a sack of empty suits, male and female.
I hope that the Green Party will not join the club.
Sabine, don’t make this about Labour. Feel free to support your party and to endorse Metiria as co-leader, but don’t dump your anger about a decision made by two Greens elsewhere. This is not a Labour issue.
Thanks.
This is why she should stay. There comes a time when you have to stand your ground. Both Turei and Shaw have said that after 15 years of doing everything else they could this was the last card she had to play. No point in wasting it.
Agreed. Sometimes you have to know when to stand and fight. This is one of those times.
Indeed. Labour has spent nearly (or more than) a decade letting the right who would never vote for them dictate their policy. Look where it’s got them.
“fundamental breaches of human rights” such as torture, genocide or apartheid.
“It does not stretch to the adequacy of an income benefit,” they said”
Oh how convenient. Lots of cowards write moral cheques they know that they don’t have to cash here in safe NZ. When it comes to an actual fight over real consequences for ordinary people, they gallop away on their high horses. Good riddance to the cowards.
Also interesting that having adequate food for your child is not a fundamental right to those two.
Sabine: “cause the fraudster Bill English in National is totally acceptable.
the work place harasser dude from balclutha, National, is also totally acceptable.
the revealer of private details to the public, Ms. Bennett is also totally acceptable.”
Christ no! Where on earth did you get that idea? Bill English needs to resign – from Parliament – over the Barclay affair, about which he’s lied like a flatfish; he should have resigned over the housing double-dip all those year ago. Ex-Dear Leader ought to have resigned over pony-tail-pulling, carpetbagging, lying masquerading as brain fades. Etc…
Just because these people didn’t resign, it by no means follows that Turei doesn’t need to go. She does: it’s a matter of principle, and a prompt departure would have been a great deal tidier than the imbroglio in which they now find themselves.
Nah, you don’t want that. If all these people within the National Party that have broken the law would resign, there would be no one left to run for the upcoming election. Poor dears.
Its hard being National. Delivering nothing for many, and much for the selected few.
and besides, if its ok if National does it, so it can only be good for others. Right?
Sabine: “If all these people within the National Party that have broken the law would resign, there would be no one left to run for the upcoming election.”
Well, that would be a good outcome, wouldn’t it? Bye bye National….
“and besides, if its ok if National does it, so it can only be good for others”
Did you not read what I wrote? It most certainly is not ok for other pollies – whatever party they belong to – to do this sort of stuff. Many of us deplore it. But the fact that they haven’t resigned in no way justifies Turei’s failure to do the right thing and resign. I’d have thought much better of her and the Greens, had she done so.
Now I think that the Greens are tainted – possibly fatally – by this stuff. How can any of us now take seriously the idea of them being in government, whichever party they’re partnered up with? The lack of principle would in turn risk tainting anything such a government attempted to do, most especially in the welfare area.
If you vote Green, surely you then understand Green Party processes/ Do you really think it’s feasible for the GP to stop in mid-campaign, to engage members in the set process for removing or selecting a leader?
Get real.
Turei continues to be a very capable leader to co-lead through the election period.
+111
That’s a really good point Carolyn. The whole ‘she has to go’ is based on how other parties change leaders, not on how the Greens do.
We are a long way apart in terms of our politics BG, however I have to agree. The Greens have always played on being ethical politicians & here is the gold plated opportunity to “eat their own dog food.” Don’t be too despondent though, given the expected surge Labour will see with the Jacinda hype I assume any wavering Greens votes will end up with Labour & thus will protect the Left v Right voting block on election day. Perhaps Turei & Shaw might reflect on how Turei’s confessions will continue to cause vote shedding to Jacinda’s rebadged Labour Party at a time they can least afford it.
Bearded Git: “Metiria needs to step down,”
I think so too. Not just from co-leadership, but from Parliament.
I was dubious about the benefit thing, but the business of her address for voting purposes is just a step too far. In general, we the voters expect pollies to be like Caesar’s wife. It undermines Parliament’s integrity when they’re not.
So…. all posters baying for Metiria to step down need to consider the role models in parliament who have done the same.
1. John Key – registered to vote in Helensville in three elections but never lived there.
“The former banker, who owns six New Zealand homes, said he made the change to clear up potential misunderstanding. Mr Key and his wife, Bronagh, are listed in electoral rolls for 2002, 2003, and 2004 as “residing” at a Waimauku address in the Helensville electorate, but have never lived there.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/helensville/news/article.cfm?l_id=400&objectid…
2. Bill English registered to vote in Clutha – how long since he lived there?
3. And what about the guy who registered his dog to vote in 2005?
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9451823/ns/health-pet_health/t/jack-russell-registers-vote-nz-election/#.WYO1qsaB1QY
As I understand it with JK, he and his wife lived at the Waimauku address the minimum time required to count as residing at that address according to the electoral office. It was still him gaming the system to get the outcome he wanted, but it was technically within the law.
Bill English is a much closer analogy: Said he lived somewhere he blatantly did not, took tens of thousands of dollars from the tax payer in benefits he was not entitled to, despite full knowledge that he was in the wrong. Whoever says Turei needs to stand down needs to be yelling as loudly for English to stand down, possibly more so as English defrauded the NZ tax payer whilst Finance Minister earning hundreds of thousands of dollars, as opposed to Turei who did her crime whilst a teenager whilst unemployed.
@d’esterre
I certainly don’t believe she should leave parliament…she has a lot to offer working for the Greens as an MP. I only said she should step down as co-leader because she has admitted she cannot become a minister.
How many have the guts to stand up for beneficiaries and a change to our welfare system?
tweet from Morgan Godfery:
🙂
>:)
Well, that seems – odd.
Neither could be after her job, so I guess they just gotta do what they gotta do…
Bugger. Won’t that play into National & NZF hands!
I’m sure that National will hope so but I actually see it a Good Thing™. Shows the Greens standing solid on moral issues while a couple of twits remove themselves from the party over immoral concerns.
Isn’t this kind of self-destruction Labour’s bailiwick?
Labour took a level in competence, but it seems Turei failed her charisma check.
Obviously needs a trainer or skill book
I think that it’s more like Graham and Clendon failed intelligence checks after intrigue from National.
You can’t buy integrity. Most MP will throw their mother under a bus to stay in parliament with the income and benefits they couldn’t have dreamed outside of it.
To Kenneth Graham and David Clendon, you have my respect. Principles and Integrity. We need more people like you in parliament.
David. I saw a tweet from Leonie Pihama I think who said essentially – you didn’t quit your family Kennedy when Doug was convicted for stealing millions. Does that make sense?
Makes no sense. Who is Kennedy and Doug?
Politics should be about principles and what you believe in. Freedom to associate, nothing to do with blood relations. You have no choice over your relatives.
Sir Doug Graham is Kennedy Graham’s brother. Former MP and Minister of Justice, Minister of Treaty Negotiations and Attorney General. Was appointed to the Privy Council and Knighted 1999. Convicted 2012 (along with another former Justice minister) of breaching securities act in his capacity as director of Lombard Finance. Lots of people lost their retirement savings.
Read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Graham
As a fellow D&D player, I solute you!
This brings back a change of government to very, very, very low.
National ‘s English was perfectly correct stating that the vote will slide from one to the other.
Labour and the Greens only had 7 weeks to keep their shit together and look like they were stable enough to sustain a government.
Now National can just re-run the same very effective advertisements from last time.
Yeah. Well, it’d have helped if Davis and Ardern hadn’t reinforced the negative Turei and bennie bashing.
But Graham and Clendon, while solid, have hardly been major GP stars, and are expendable.
And Metiria has a much stronger following. A tweet says membership asked the 2 guys to stand down after their call for Turei to stand down.
There’s no way I am aware of for the membership to organise that fast.
Damn right. Nobody asked me.
I’ve debated both of them at election meetings and both are knowledgeable, intelligent, hardworking and respectable.
Because of those qualities, I can see why they resigned.
People upset about standing on principle aren’t the types we want in parliament.
Read their statement for why they quit and tell me they aren’t standing by their own principles, ones that the majority of the country would completely agree with.
More often than not your ‘own principles’ aren’t what you need to be standing on as they’re the ones that cause damage to society.
The ones that we need to stand upon are the ones that are logically consistent and ensures that our people are well looked after. Something that cannot be said about the current laws as they force people into deprivation and having commit crimes to survive – especially if they have children.
When we have laws like that then standing on principle is standing in defiance of those laws and besides others doing the same because the laws are wrong.
I agree with your sentiment, but I think Kennedy Graham and David Clendon absolutely nailed it in their statement:
“”We do not believe that lying to a public agency – Winz, IRD or any other – can ever be condoned,” the two MPs said in a joint statement tonight.
They said civil disobedience was sometimes justified, but this should be limited to “fundamental breaches of human rights” such as torture, genocide or apartheid.
“It does not stretch to the adequacy of an income benefit,” they said”
Evidently, Clendon and Graham have never had to survive on a welfare benefit. An MP’s salary and perks does not equate.
I think that Kenny and Dave should campaign in general elections like everyone else they never really have. Not sure it’s much of a loss
Being principled does not mean refusing to get your lillywhite hands dirty by actually standing up for impoverished people so that you can make a show of your pretended moral superiority. That’s just narcissism and hypocrisy.
They’re happy to see the cruel treatment of the beneficiaries continue here while they wave banners about genocide in other countries far away. That is their “morality.”
Both Labour and the Greens can do with a lot fewer latte-slurping hand-wringers and more people like Metiria who’ve had to make real tough decisions.
And they’re wrong. They’re not standing on principle there. They’re following the RWNJ rhetoric because they’re scared of the bad publicity.
By failing to provide enough to live on the welfare system is fundamentally breaching those rights:
We’ve signed on to that and have done so since it was first written and yet we fail to live up to it.
Except for the fact that it does if you’re going to support the standards of fundamental human rights.
+infinity
There is more to this than Metiria Turei etc. They were both unhappy with their position on the list, they have had little involvement in the campaign this far, they went to the media rather than to the Greens leadership……
I think the Greens and Turei are all intelligent hardworking and respectable.
Lawyers generally are very respectable. Boot-strap pulling may be something that poorer people who don’t have wealthy family background just have to do.
And getting a lot of supercilious males who are safe from the inconvenient egg that is too quick to let in the hordes of sperm when you are young, and too slow when you are older, is the cost of doing (honest) business in talking about difficulties in the early days in maintaining a decent home and nurturing a child at the same time.
Oh. Because we only want “respectable people in Parliament??
Or. Only the ones who don’t rock the boat too much??
No longer matters which schoolyard whisper did what.
Nor they scale of their followings.
Maybe the Greens will actually have a plotted-out strategy next time they launch a policy.
There is no time to turn the Green campaign around now – they need to just hunker down for 8-10%. As we saw with transport, the Green policies are just getting outflanked.
Metiria has damaged her party and is causing massive damage both to the Party and to the campaign.
Fuck beneficiaries then?!
No she didn’t.
TVNZ leads tonight with: “The Greens Are In Crisis”
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news
Not a single piece of positive media for their campaign for over a week.
Two current MPs gone.
Co-leader Shaw wasting campaign time having to defend her.
And this is only the start.
How they pull up out of this as a campaign is hard to fathom.
Best move right now is to mobilise the people that strongly approve of what they are doing.
They also need to get some big bold policy out there.
Turei hasn’t damaged the party, and she didn’t do this alone, the party did this and it backs her still. I think this will strengthen the Greens and it’s also the best thing for NZ.
Better be some almighty policy to cauterise this mess.
There’s power in deep values. This is a much bigger fight than this election. I keep saying, the Greens want change not power for power’s sake.
But sure, it’s do or die time. I’ve been feeling that way for a while now. There’s not stepping back over that line to being middle of the road. That’s why Clendon and Graham are getting out, they probably don’t know wtf is going on.
No need to cauterise because there’s no mess.
Just attacks by other parties because the Greens stood on principle and it mattered.
+1 zillion.
Yes I agree a chance for some really bold policy, I didn’t support Myet admission, I thought it was politically niave .
However what is done is done They should just go for it now hog the headlines the Greens don’t get much media cut through.
they have now Hammer it Guys secure the real leftie vote let Jacinda and Grant have the centre they are happier there.
Draco, this is not “just attacks from other parties”. Don’t try to spin it. It’s sad and worrying, but it’s a Greens issue. People on this thread who are trying to make this about Labour or other parties need to look at what’s actually happening here. I don’t know what kind of discussions happened within the party before the campaign speech but Shaw says it was discussed within caucus. I wonder if these two expressed disagreement at the time? Either way, I hope the Greens aren’t too damaged by this. I think committed Greens will probably stick with them, but it certainly seems like this will feed the whole narrative of chaos that the Nats will be running. Worrying.
Yes it is.
Two people stepped down, two people stepped up. That’s all that’s happened in the party as far I can make out. And that’s as it should be and any well run organisation will tell you the same.
Did National go into crisis when Key suddenly stepped down? Did Labour when Little walked away? No?
Why is it when a couple of people step aside in the Greens it suddenly becomes a crisis?
So, all the BS about the Greens being in crisis is just that – BS made up by other people and you’re believing that spin.
Nope Weka, best move is for Metiria to step down NOW.
+111 @ weka
I thought you were a smart guy
This is about ethics,morality,and ability to govern.
Turei should have gone when she fessed up to benefit fraud.
In her position the electoral fraud is worse.
The hipocrasy from the left is outstandingly outrageous.
“electoral fraud”
26 years ago, a young Maori woman voted outside of her area in order to vote for her friend. As a result, Ian has determined that, 26 years later, a political career must end!
You’re quite a one, Ian!
In your governance role Robert I would expect you to know the difference between right and wrong.
As a dairy farmer and a committed environmentalist I would love tojoin and support a true green party
Your values align more with the swimmable party that wants to mine conservation land. That’s why you vote for them.
You don’t understand why so many people admire what Metiria Turei has done. You’ll never get it. Not even as a thought experiment.
In fact, your reaction is part of the strategy. Whether it’ll succeed is another matter. Shaw and Turei have explained why they did it, and you cannot understand that either.
And that is one of the reasons you have zero credibility when you flail around trying to redefine “Green” to suit your personal handicap.
I am very comfortable within my own skin as a farmer and environmentalist.
If I can’t understand why seemingly honest and intelligent people beleive that benefit fraud and electoral fraud is ok for a member of parliament ,thats a handicap I am happy to suffer
So what’s your opinion on Blinglish’s benefit fraud as a Minister of the Crown? If you’re so concerned about right and wrong, why aren’t you demanding that the corrupt PM stand down?
Then Ian, since no-one has said anything is “ok for a member of Parliament”, let alone fraud, I conclude that you are incapable of grasping the arguments arrayed against you, and are reduced to employing stupid and rather transparent strawmen instead.
Why is that Ian? Did you try and figure out what’s going on and fail? Or did you just not bother to make the attempt?
I don’t share your values, no matter how much you keep boring everyone to death with them. For one thing they’re utterly hypocritical. For another they’re grasping and cruel.
So you’re going to have to come up with something better than argumentum ad nauseam, chump.
And in addition to that, a vote for the McGillicuddy Serious Party is to all intents and purposes akin to not voting at all; and nobody gets prosecuted for non voting.
Yes it is and Metiria has shown that she has the fortitude to do so.
Can’t say that about the other party leaders especially Blinglish, or Key
https://thestandard.org.nz/watch-bill-english-lying-through-his-teeth-on-housing/
https://thestandard.org.nz/the-story-bill-english-doesnt-want-you-to-see/
https://thestandard.org.nz/the-great-big-list-of-john-keys-big-fat-lies-updated/
The problem isn’t Metiria and her past but the continued lying by the right-wing and their acceptance of those lies. Proof that they have no ethical standard at all.
Which is a lie. We’re not in crisis.
And you’re surprised by this because….?
The MSM have made it clear for a long time that they do not support the Greens.
The amazing thing about being in a community is that we help and support each other. Hell, even National the home of individualism and backstabbing support each other. If they didn’t all their MPs that have done wrong would have been long gone. Blinglish definitely wouldn’t be PM.
I’m sure you think so. IMO, just keep going the way they are and stand on their principles.
And then you need to read this:
There is no crisis. Awesome.
Try something, Greens, anything.
But it better be good.
The thing you’re missing Ad – none of this will necessarily be damaging.
Depending on where things sit in a “Corbyn/Sanders/SNP” scheme of things, any opprobrium or condemnation just kinda backfires rather spectacularly 🙂
and the media does not lead with the fact that if you have a surgery today that your surgeon might operate on you with tools from Mitre 10.
but i guess its ok, cause the taodies at the media have enough cash to get themselves operated in a hospital in OZ that has the cash needed to buy surgical instruments.
fuck, people are dumb.
And not a peep on the Bennett investigation protest and a 15,000 signature petition…more distractions that I can only imagine have something to do with the Dirty Politics crew
With all due respect, I think you’re exactly the sort of voter the Green Party would do well to ignore on this particular issue. Your attitude here fits perfectly with your stance on Corbyn.
You’ll find Labour are much more practised at this kind of thing.
Labourites just sit and seethe and plot and bully. It’s a well-matured leftie neurosis.
The Greens will get better at fucking up in time.
But this is a good start.
I’m with you on this Ad. I noticed tonight that Newshub said that Ardern is planning to announce charging for water bottlers on Wednesday. That’s a policy, which will be really popular, that James Shaw has already announced for the Greens, except that nobody knows that because on the the same day he did it Metiria decided in her infinite wisdom to call Winston a racist. The Greens will be lucky to get 8% I reckon.
Precisely.
All the positive airtime now goes to Jacinda. Shaw will now spend his entire time defending what he has left, which is the dead opposite of now-optimistic Labour.
And because of that media shift, Labour gets to outflank them at every policy turn. As Ardern will on Wednesday.
It’s like the Greens just said to Labour: “Here, have three MPs for free.”
I like James Shaw a lot as it happens but I don’t think he has the skills to fix this shitstorm. Hopefully the Greens will at least scrape over 5% and not waste any left votes. Best we can hope for now is a Lab/NZF government, perhaps a minority with cross bench support from what’s left of the Greens.
Ah well. I like Shaw too. – they are lucky to have him.
Swarbrick and Gharaman will be their fresh entrants – and will be useful additions to their team.
Coates and Roche will be missed though.
I’ve been defending Metiria on Pundit & Public Address but this latest news has got me shifting towards your view Ad. It all hinges on whether she fully briefed her caucus in advance and got their vote of support for going public with the initial confession (consensus).
If so, the two guys must’ve changed their minds as a result of the public reaction. If not, she went solo & ought to accept responsibility for any subsequent drop in poll ratings. The two guys would have felt blindsided & their reaction understandable. Refer to the Green Party charter principle on appropriate decision-making. Refer to the party rules for consensus decision-making (drafted on my computer running Windows 3.1 in the early nineties when I was convenor of the standing orders committee). I hope they worked their process properly…
It’s never occurred to me that this was anything other than a decision by the party. It’s theoretically possible that Turei did the speech on her own, but I can’t imagine that she did. How would that even work?
I recall reading or hearing somewhere that Turei said she ran it by other GP MPs before she gave the speech, including James Shaw.
Shaw pretty much confirmed in the press conference tonight that the welfare policy launch was a caucus decision and plan.
He confirmed that last night – Metiria has been trying for over a decade to get traction on reducing poverty in this country, but always coming up short because of the numbers. eg the food in schools bill that she adopted from Hone. and her own private members Bills.
They decided that it needed the impetus of her personal experience to give the Policy the legs it needed.
Ad
Your dire predictions of a Green vote collapse are a bit premature. My rule of thumb is not to make any predictions until after the debates. We on TS do tend to react to every blip of media coverage. Most voters tend to either stick with a party from election to election, or decide in the last week – this will be old news by then.
The GP vote would have to drop under 10% for Coates to fail to return, and Roche is actually in a better list position now; so that if the vote merely holds steady she’ll be back. I don’t have much time for Shaw myself, but am willing to concede that he does what he set out to do well enough. However Turei’s passion is more likely to inspire new Green voters than Shaw’s managerial approach.
That’s a good point about the debates. It’s possible the vote will dip in the next poll, so we should be prepared for that and stick to our guns.
16% if they play their cards right.
Your opinion of the Green Party is worth about as much as that of Stephen Joyce.
You don’t understand them, and that’s the sum total of the information you impart.
You don’t understand them, and that’s the sum total of the information you impart.
There’s certainly been a hell of a lot of that the last couple of weeks.
Who cares.I am pleased I never got to know them. But, if they get rid of the tutai factor and become a true environmental party I would consider joining.How tje hell the old values party got hijacked by anarchists and fraudsters will ne a gopd read.
Missing vto right now. The hippies are always right.
vto – “follow the hippies”
always, that is were all the fun is. 🙂
aha, maybe that’s where he’s gotten to.
I’m inclined to agree Ad. I don’t know if this is the end of the world but I don’t think this whole thing paints the greens in the light they wished, granted I’m likely not the target audience. Be interesting to see how much the polls swing, likely shift from green to red.
If the votes go to Labour now instead of all to Greens, no loss for us as long as they stay left. But Turei has used an almost unheard of method to spark interest and discussion about the election, chaos theory indicates. we can’t even guess how it will develop.
There’s still a strong core for the Greens and you will be pleasantly supersized come election day. I’ll be voting Labour but will still go into bat for the Greens and particularly , – Metiria.
She single handedly raised the profile of the neo liberal welfare state and just how useless and viscous it is. I wasn’t fussed one way or the other with both Adern of Turei before, but I give 100% to Metiria and her courage ,- and her telling it how it is. That’s pure courage and social concern. Metiria is awesome.
And more so when I view Bill English and what he did, – helping himself to $32,000.00 of housing allowance paid for by the tax payer, while he was Deputy PM , on a large salary paid for AGAIN by the tax payer… with no small child to feed and clothe, not undertaking study’s etc etc… there is no comparing the two situations.
Metiria Turei can hold her head high. English cannot.
As for Adern … I suspected a Grant Robertson semi neo liberal team , but , there is no doubt her radiant personality , keen intelligence, ability to more than put the Dirty Politics brigade in their place including the media shows she has mettle. That open radiance , humour shows she is teachable, can listen , and is actively thinking in terms of the social impacts of Labours policy’s. And Labour have a few good policy areas which are needed , – along with the Greens.
There is no alternative to Labour and the Greens if we want a change of govt for the better. These are the two that will provide that platform. I’m quite excited about that , but no govt is perfect and it would be unfair to either expect miracles or instant change overnight.
Neo liberalism has had over three decades to build itself up in this country , and dismantling it will take a bit of time. Mainly because of stiff resistance. But Labour and Greens will provide the first small steps towards some of that. This a time for pulling in together to get the job done , and , if those two Greens left , well , OK ,.. but lets get back to the job of getting rid of National. That’s the first beachhead to be made. After that ,… its the time for mopping the remnants up.
This is the REAL ‘ Brighter Future’ for New Zealand.
” you will be pleasantly supersized come election day.”
Best news I’ve heard all day, WK!
editing the damn edit :
That’s Surprised , not supersized ffs !
🙂
Slightly under the weather atm so I’m keeping out of this til tomorrow L0L !
By ¨viscous¨ do you mean that the money flows out very slowly? 🙂
Lol !- messin up badly tonight !
Good spotting !
The Greens have a sold 10% base.
Damaged the party so much that Green’s went up in the polls after her announcement.
My reply to Ad appears to have disappeared into moderation
… which is probably no bad thing when you think about it
… Best place for it, I’d say
[RL: It landed up in the discard bin. I don’t know if it got there accidentally or some other mod acted on it, but as you wish I won’t restore it.]
Sorry RL
If you could post it I’d appreciate it (tried a number of times – so should be 1
or 2 of same post floating around)
Sorry for creating more work
Young Ad (1)
Yep and potentially to the electoral fortunes of the wider Left Bloc ／change of Govt … cluster-fuck territory … reinforces Coalition of Chaos meme
One wonders – is Metiria factor partly ／ entirely neutralizing Jacinda factor ?
Green’s core policy on welfare = for the most part laudable
Turei’s PR campaign to promote that policy = clumsy, impulsive, self-defeating
With the Greens – it’s like giving kids a box of matches to play with … & on the eve of an Election Campaign after 9 long years in Opposition !
Young Ad (1)
Yep and potentially to the electoral fortunes of the wider Left Bloc ／change of Govt … cluster-f**k territory … reinforces Coalition of Chaos meme
One wonders – is Metiria factor partly ／ entirely neutralizing Jacinda factor ?
2nd half of comment just won’t post ! Bugger !
[RL: Lifted from your original comment. Not sure what’s happening but you’ve about 6 or more comments in the trash bin.]
Shaw tonight said he’d talked with Robertson tonight and they were on the same page, or words to that effect.
You underestimate the new direction nz politics is taking.
Most of the mainstream media try to diss the Greens whenever they can. The GP goes on with solid support.
Why let the media lead your politics?
Yep. Similar to what happened with Corbyn. I don’t think it’s a done deal by any means but I do think it behooves us to support the momentum.
“Now National can just re-run the same very effective advertisements from last time.”
Only if they get a new backing track…
They’ve “removed themselves from the list”, creating opportunity for two other fresher Green’s to move into the front seat – good thing, in many ways.
There won’t be any fresher faces elected Robert if the Greens vote share drops back towards 8%.
Then let’s do everything we can to get them well clear of that, Scott.
Fresher greens. I didnt realise that greens moral fiber increased with age.
No, but apparently their sense of entitlement does.
DoublePlusGood
What’s this ‘sense of entitlement’? Have you trolls had a tweetifit and decided on a new loaded word to throw at everyone? Sort of like a sock filled with sand, apparently inoccuous till it strikes. You are serving up true to your moniker with double plus good delivery of rancid criticism.
Resigning in a giant pique of righteous indignation fits the bill for having a sense of entitlement. See also Tava and Hay for similar recent examples, although in those instances rather of younger generations.
No it doesn’t. If you care to watch the interview they gave it was clear both Kennedy and Clendon were tired, sad and very disappointed it had all come to an end like this. There was no anger, no pleasure, no gloating nor self-righteous ‘entitlement’.
Also that they had made every effort over the course of a week or more to get to a resolution with the leadership, but could not reconcile what they believed with what was happening. That is their right and while it’s no doubt deeply aggravating for everyone who feels betrayed by it … you really have no other choice but to respect it.
Slagging them off only makes matters worse.
Chloe & Gholriz. I’m inclined to agree – these two symbolise the generational shift to a spectacular extent. However the list was created for the election so the media announcement of resignation probably ought to have been explained as deferred till then. The two guys’ll be doing a Toddy…
If it had been Sue Kedgley or Jean Fitzsimmons ( who has just spoken out for Metiria) I might be impressed. I stand with Metiria, and do not regret the loss of these two. They need to publicise their reasons (and be convincing) if they are not to be seen as no loss at all,.. and I doubt that they can convince.
Like In Vino, I stand in support of Metiria. Kenneth and David will no doubt explain their decisions and it’s then that we can decide on the quality of their actions – too soon to condemn anyone, I’d have thought.
A lot of understandably upset people on this thread and I respect that. But yes that’s the best thing said so far Robert — too soon to condemn.
The timing is awful and I can only imagine Kennedy and Clendon would be aware of this, so god knows what’s brought it to a head now. Neither of them strike me as impetuous or inherently disloyal people.
ahhhh… fuck it.
I hope it’s not a simple – I haven’t been recognised for my own greatness enough – syndrome.
Aw shucks, Marty – I can identify!
I am not surprised that Fitzsimons has backed Turei.
Jeanette had much the same attitude as Metiria. The law is for the common people. Those who are superior can ignore it.
I had quite a lot of time for Fitzsimons until her burn-off at her Coromandel farm when there was a total open air fire ban. That didn’t matter to her apparently. After all she knew better. The Brigade arrived and, in their reporting of the matter put out the fire that was lit in windy conditions. Fitzsimons was sure that there was no problem and told a greatly different story.
I can’t find an early report of the story. At the time JF came up with a moan that there was nothing at all wrong and mere trifles like a total fire ban didn’t apply to superior people such as herself.
Here is a link to a later version of the story after she, like MT, had had time to put a spin onto the affair.
http://tvnz.co.nz/content/646055/2556418.xhtml?affairs=true
Fitzsimons had other form. She later claimed that both she and Catherine Delahunty rented an apartment, owned by the Green Party Super Fund, for which they BOTH claimed expenses for the rent. Just a trivial error of course.
I’m afraid after that the only Green leader I had any time for was the late Rod Donald.
I am not in the slightest surprised that Fitzsimons sees nothing wrong with fraud against the taxpayer and backs the Turei line.
Alwyn – your bitterness for the Greens is clouding your judgement and memory. Jeanette wasn’t responsible for the burning a pile of gorse branches, it was her husband who did that. It’s ancient history, and of no account whatsoever, but to you, it’s still a live issue and it burns seemingly. Your resentment is palpable.
Yes dear.
[it’s late and I can’t be bothered following this up, but take this as a warning, that if you start with the lying about the GP stuff again I will ban you for a long time. – weka]
Listen to him al – you are losing it buddy – you are funny too so carry on.
Absolutely bang on. I was talking today with fellow Green voters. Yes I do live in a so-called leafy area. They are utterly appalled with the behaviour of Turei. She was never ‘poor’. She used the system in the most cynical way. Don’t know who to vote for now. The total lack of morality astounds us. I think basically just stay home. I am very bloody angry! By the way have always have voted Green. Won’t be anymore.
“Their view is that anyone who is poor is at fault for being poor and the best way to treat them is to make them poorer and “incentivise” them to work by doing so.”
This is certainly showing up all the pretend lefties who do not want any challenges’ to their comfortable lives from the poor.
“She was never ‘poor’.”
How do you mean?
Who told you she wasn’t poor at that time? The omnipotent ones called MSM journalists?
Does anyone know where those guys stood on the (how to say?) non-environmental front?
Are they a part of the Green Party that quietly approved the hollowing out of the red flesh that sat beneath the green skin ( ie – the removal of Bradford and Tánczos)?
If so. Good riddance.
I’d like to read what Nandor thinks right now.
Wonder if we could persuade him to return…
didn’t he give a speech on how the greens are not a left wing party?
If he did, it depends what he meant by the greens. If he meant the movement, he’s right. If he meant the parliamentary party, he still mostly right. I was first conference speaker to advocate the leftist alignment (prior to MMP) and since nobody objected we adopted it by consensus & I feel responsible for it.
Nonetheless, neither left nor right remains the correct green political position, both here & globally. Support for the underclass is appropriate, so a partnership with the left also remains a good idea. The Values schism on this political fault-line was terminal – unfortunately the leftists may have failed to learn the lesson. I agree we need to hear from the two guys before drawing any conclusions tho.
the underclass
I prefer to call them “your betters”.
Unless they both had personal bereavements or something at the same time, their resignations were a coordinated political act.
As for Nandor, read it yourself. It’s no longer on his website, but that’s why we have internet archives.
That’s a very interesting read from Nandor.
Yeah.
It’s one reason I haven’t trusted the Greens in years. They’ve struck me as having a chunk of folks who’d turn a blind eye to the farmers paying in effect less than minimum wage, just as long as they keep their waterways clean. And other compromises.
That’s not what Nandor was talking about though. He’s not saying ‘not left’ = right or conservative.
In my experience, people who claim they’re above the left/right divide end up with a foot in both camps. And their weight is a bit light, almost tokenistic, on the left foot.
yes, but it’s still not what the GP party mean. Also, it’s not ‘above’ in the Pete George sense of removing oneself from the fray. In Tanczos’ view (haven’t read the piece recently) it’s more likely to be about younger people who don’t have that same commitment or allegiance to the left simply because they don’t see politics on a L/R spectrum.
For green politics in general it’s because of the world view that people are a subset of the environment, and thus the values and principles *are different to traditional left ones, which frames people as central and has historically had some resistance to the false dichotomy of jobs vs environment.
But because we only have the language to talk L/R it’s hard to have a proper conversation about how that’s not a betrayal of the left. I just end up calling the Greens LW because it’s easier, but more accurate would be that the Greens have policy that sits relatively easily within LW values.
Well, maybe those two MPs are suddenly speaking a different language.
Nandor concludes:
This from a man widely respected as one of the smartest, effective Green MP’s this country has ever seen. Dismissing his view offhandedly isn’t helpful.
If his view is still valid, ask him to put it back on his website.
And if the Greens aren’t a left wing party, they’re not going to be part of building a left wing government and I don’t have any motive to help them.
But the Green policies and values are quite acceptable to LW movements and governments, so not helping them is kind of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face.
Maybe it would be helpful to view things in terms of right and wrong as well as (not instead of) left and right. There’s fair overlap as well as a degree of difference between those two perspectives.
edit. Just to add. If you ain’t abetting anything that isn’t left, then you’ve written off NZ Labour- liberal is as antithetical to left wing as right wing is.
Well, I’m just thankful they have Turei as coleader and not Tanczos or either of the two departures. It means they’ll go after worker support, rather than nat farmers disappointed with the deBarclay.
edit: @Bill: I’m actually hoping that the greens will help Labour move further back down the Left path until they get their lefty vibe back. (initially used “mojo” instead of “vibe”, but that led to all sorts of confusion lol)
Thanks McFlock, some of his thoughtful reasoning still applies. Take a look at that RNZ interview with the guys, you may feel some empathy for them. I did. I feel for her too (which is why I’ve defended her stand online in several places whereas I usually lack confidence in her judgment and sometimes criticise her accordingly.)
Remember, everyone, that a change of government in Aotearoa hardly ever comes from the left alone. It mostly happens when swing-voters shift leftwards. Opening up this old fault-line between the center & the left is a strategic error if it was done deliberately. I think she did it inadvertently, as a result of discounting the need for consensus in the center. That demonstrates poor political judgment.
the trouble with the swing vote is that it swings back. And then you get a government like we had over the last 9 years.
so maybe Aotearoa changes when we speak to those that have given up voting for anyone cause why bother?
But people who think that obeying the law is more important than caring for your kids aren’t “center” We have a distinct blue period in the political palette over the last 30 years. Trying to placate the current “center” is cutting a deal with tory bosses – light tories, but tories nonetheless.
I haven’t bothered to watch their interview. Does it offer anything to change the summary that they chose to fuck their party in an election campaign because they felt so strongly about 25 year old benefit fraud?
edit: just watched it. Nah. They could have just said their dogs were sick and staggered their announcements, rather than blaming the decision that got their party a three point bump.
Hey, if someone absolutely can’t condone benefit fraud, what’s the non-left wing Green solution to trying to raise kids on an insufficient-in-practise benefit?
non-left wing Green solution
Biodegradable coffins?
[RL: You are on holiday. https://thestandard.org.nz/two-green-mps-quit/#comment-1364751%5D
hahahahaha
i think the best that could be done is actually publizising how much a single mother with a child or children gets.
i think there is this myth out there that it is hundreds of dollars and that they have it pretty.
I think many would be surprised just how little it is, and how one can not live of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_in_Germany
for example this is how it is in Germany, and you can find this information on wikipedia. (Hartz4 is the new term (after the Minister who wrote the policy) and was in the past called Sozial Geld, or social money)
Unemployment benefit I[edit]
The unemployment benefit I in Germany is also known as the unemployment insurance. The insurance is administered by the federal employment agency and funded by employee and employer contributions. This in stark contrast to FUTA in the US and other systems; where only employers make contributions. Participation (and thus contributions) are generally mandatory for both employee and employer. All workers with a regular employment contract, except freelancers and certain civil servants, contribute to the system. Since 2006, certain previously excluded workers have been able to opt into the system on a voluntary basis.
The system is financed by contributions from employees and employers. Employees pay 1.5% of their gross salary below the social security threshold and employers pay 1.5% contribution on top of the salary paid to the employee. The contribution level was reduced from 3.25% for employees and employers as part of labour market reforms known as Hartz. Contributions are paid only on earnings up to the social security ceiling (2012: 5,600 EUR). The system is largely self-financed but also receives a subsidy from the state to run the Job centers.
Unemployed workers are entitled to:
Living allowance known as unemployment benefit
Help in finding work
Training
Unemployed benefit is paid to workers who have contributed at least during 12 months preceding their loss of a job. The allowance is paid for half of the period that the worker has contributed. Claimants get 60% of their previous net salary (capped at the social security ceiling), or 67% for claimants with children. The maximum benefit is therefore 2,964 euros (in 2012).
Unemployment benefit II[edit]
If a worker is not eligible for the full unemployment benefits or after receiving the full unemployment benefit for the maximum of 12 months, he is able to apply for benefits from the so-called Hartz IV programme, an open-ended welfare programme.
A person receiving Hartz IV benefits is paid 399 EUR (2015) a month for living expenses plus the cost of adequate housing (including heating) and health care. Couples can receive benefits for each partner including their children. Additionally, children can get “benefits for education and participation”. Germany does not have an EBT (electronic benefits transfer) card system in place and, instead, disburses welfare in cash or via direct deposit onto the recipient’s bank account.
We have a lot to learn from Germany.
And with all this – they have a powerhouse economy. In part because they invest in people, not the miserable cruelty we have here.
lolz but possibly a bit harsh…
If placating the “centre” means abandoning principle. What is the point?
The way that National pretends to be more socialist than they are, to get in shows where the real “centre” is!
The “left” letting the centre ratchet to the right every election since 1987, has resulted in less and less support. Not more.
+111
I have always thought that ¨sustainability¨ was the main concern of the Green Party. But that means economic sustainability as well as environmental, so a leftish stance seems appropriate.
Reality has a radical Left bias.
I agree with both your sentiments. Would prefer a radical transform myself, have done so since I first saw the need for it back in ’71. Trouble is, human nature is very inertial. Democracy operating as a brake on progress etc…
Is it democracy that’s holding us back or the authoritarian hierarchy that tells us that nothing can be changed?
It is not the people.
Even National have to at least pretend to be concerned and socialist to win elections.
So. It is obvious it is the Government that are holding us back.
My thoughts too.
Kennedy Graham is an intellectual powerhouse on climate change. Just the sort of MP you expect the Greens to want to retain.
if they were Green, that is.
We’ve got others.
So youre saying the greens aren’t green Nick k. Come on just say what you want to say instead of coy insinuations.
I think he is a loss. But he’s also just damaged the party, and the party can’t retain someone who is willing to do that.
Don’t know what Clendon does, but Graham is someone I would have rated generally. He’s done that work on foreign affairs and security/intelligence issues.
But whatever their politics, fuck them both.
I have talked with Graham face-to-face. He seems a nice person, though somehat staud.
But the GP have said this about the 2 guys:
NZ Herald in last half hour:
If this report is correct, Sarah seems to be misleading the media. Green Party decisions were traditionally made in conference. Administrative powers were delegated to the Executive. A decision to ask two sitting MPs to resign, if made by our Executive, would be at the very least totally inappropriate. We have a charter principle requiring appropriate decision-making. The Executive must practise what we preach.
If, in fact, they have been practising closet-stalinism, they ought to resign. Such traditional leftist political behaviour has no place in the new millennum.
Dave Clendon has an organic farming background
Both decidedly blue-greens according to Google. Agree, good riddance. #Iametiria!
+1 Bill
reported on Stuff:
Maybe they could join TOP?
Actually, that sounds more like Labour Party behaviour from over the last few years. Except that all the Labour party leeks didn’t have the guts to name and remove themselves from the party.
Oh, good – the Greens are shifting dead wood out and refreshing their list. Nice of the dead wood to volunteer.
So well put – even if it may be a premature judgement!
Why the hate for these two, who are Green Party insiders? Why do the commentators at the standard prefer to die in a ditch of their own making. Witness all the little supporters the night before his resignation? Now this?
If two list MPs, on of which was certain to get in on current polling are prepared to resign over meteria’s actions I’d say what she has done has not resonated as strongly with caucus or with GP supporters as has been potrayed
Bold moves make waves, it’s a given. That’s not a reason to restrict yourself to bland moves. The Green Party is a radical party of the left – people who can’t cope with that and would prefer bland are doing the right thing to withdraw.
I’m a long time GP member (non-active). They should have dealt with this in-house and then when they didn’t get what they wanted they should have stfu, or left quietly.
Going to the media against the wishes of the party, 7 weeks before a general election. That’s is about one of the biggest betrayals of the party I can imagine. You just don’t shit on your team like this, it’s the core of what the GP is.
Agree. Not Green behaviour. I am inclined to wonder if there is some corrupt payoff involved. I want to see really lucid justification of their action from these two. Will we get any such thing? I hope so, but will not hold my breath.
Well, I reckon we’re getting over-heated about this. Kenneth and David were not keen to slip away quietly when first asked, held on till now and have finally agreed to slide down the list in favour of newer people. Yes, it’s spectacular by ordinary measures and the optics can be considered bad, but really, beneath it all, not a lot of intrigue, imo.
Edit: this eagerness to smear, besmirch and denigrate people is my biggest concern; these guys were good Green MPs for a long time yet we are ripping into them without hearing their stories. A bit piranha-like, imo.
Fair point, which I would have agreed with if they hadn’t gone to the media first. I’m pretty good at thinking through potential scenarios but hard to fathom that one.
Not sure where you’re at with this & advise waiting awhile to see if they elaborate: as far as I can tell, the media has only reported the two resignations with no spin or interpretation or explanations. Do we even have evidence they notified the media before the GP did?
The media were reporting first that the MPs wanted Turei gone, then that they were stepping off the list, both before the Greens had put out any press release. That’s a pretty clear sequence of events. Shaw has also said that this was the wrong way to go about it, so on balance I think it’s most likely that they did act outside of the caucus and party process.
Might be a couple of South Pacific fisheries jobs coming up you reckon.
Weka if a National MP resigned in a way that reflected badly on the party 7 weeks out from an election you (and others here) would be beside yourselves and there would be a post on here about it asap. Please don’t be a bloody hypocrite.
Um, this is that post.
Don’t know what you mean Scott, what’s the hypocrisy?
The way that Clendon and Graham have been trashed in this forum is appalling really. And pretty much all the posters doing the trashing would love nothing more than to have a couple of National Party MPs resign in the same way.
They’ve been trashed in this forum because a party’s supporters feel betrayed when two of its MPs try and damage the party weeks out from an election. Those feelings tend to find their way outside of someone’s head in a hurry.
Well certainly it is damaging and the sense of betrayal is real. Can’t deny that.
But this isn’t over just Turei’s speech or subsequent events. It will have roots going back a while and there’s a lot that isn’t public yet.
I agree, this will be about more than Turei. Tonight though, I won’t be getting past that “damage the party weeks out from an election” bit.
Yes – both men were given list placings (which are decided initially by delegates from the regions and then after a draft list is prepared the list goes back to the regions who again vote and finally the list is confirmed with proper weighting for balance of gender, ethnicity, area representation, etc) below where they were last time, so I gather that they thought they should have been higher.
Maybe … but MP’s move about list placings all the time without this kind of runction.
Assuming this is the sole cause and they’re just disgruntled is a poor argument. Especially as Kennedy seems to have been in a reasonably safe spot.
You know Metiria didn’t just decide to tell her story when she released the Green’s Party Policy wrt combating poverty in NZ, on her own bat. It was discussed in caucus, and it was a caucus decision. They knew before the launch the substance of what she was going to say. To leave it until now really is a shameful act on their part. It shows little sympathy for the Party that has supported them over the years, and even less for the situation that Metiria found herself in 20 odd years ago as a solo mum trying desperately to support a child on the meager benefit begrudgingly given by an uncaring state.
Fair enough. I don’t have any new information to add to that analysis. Maybe we’ll find out more in a few days, or the next 10 minutes the rate things are moving.
Well it’s a shame that someone’s head in the Green Party didn’t plot out the long game of Metiria’s actions because that’s the real betrayal here.
Arrogant baseless reckons.
That’s what people were saying before they went up four points in the polls a week ago.
You don’t like Turei’s strategy.
The poll results on Stuff were interesting: Should Metiria resign, they asked.
“No”, said 24%.
I’d say there’s room for the Greens to climb a bit further in the polls yet. That’s not a prediction it’s an observation. As for the election, who knows how this is going to play out?
Not me. All I know is what I’d like to see, and it’s a long way from your visions.
Our visions aren’t that different really OAB.
Sure the Greens went up a bit in the last polling round but all those votes came from Labour – they haven’t actually added a single vote to the centre left ledger really and that’s the problem. The fact is the
Greens assumed that Labour was fucked for this election so they made a play for some of those votes. Fair enough, except they didn’t anticipate Labour taking the nuclear option of changing leaders 7 weeks out (which I personally think was planned in advance and timed for maximum effect). The Greens have over-reached and now they’re going to pay the price.
Interpreting the motivations of respondents in single poll results is even worse “baseless reckons.”
I voted “No” in that poll, the longer she stays there the better! Tonight is a great example of why.
…the long game of Metiria’s actions…
Since when was three weeks the “long game?”
At the moment PM three weeks is practically glacial.
Minor point, the vast majority of comments have criticised their behaviour, not them personally.
A small number of comments have included positive criticism, for that matter.
Are you one of those people who confuses criticism and personal attack?
“The way that Clendon and Graham have been trashed in this forum is appalling really. And pretty much all the posters doing the trashing would love nothing more than to have a couple of National Party MPs resign in the same way.”
Sorry, still not getting your point. Obviously if 2 National Party MPs resigned, I’d be happy, because fuck National. But it’s not good for the Greens for 2 of their MPs to resign like this and I care about the Greens.
Have a look at Shaw’s press conference from tonight. I can’t speak to the rest of the commenters here, but for me personally Shaw just said pretty much what I was thinking and feeling and I’m hugely grateful to him. Also, that PC is a very good example of how to hold people to account for their actions without trashing them.
Note that this forum heavily trashes twits like Aaron Gilmour.
Greens imploding😅
Neh, just evolving.
Into what DtB?
Note they’re both men. Can’t get past this line drawn in the sand (note shifting sands) which so often separates fictional justice from real justice. So, they believe when the rules were an a******e and didn’t pay solo Mum’s enough to provide the necessities of life for themselves and their babies then those rules still took precedence?
Time the men did the pregnancy thing and succoured the babies. On my, would they change their tune!! Let em go Greens. They’re not worth keeping.
Edit: Nice one PM @11. The Greens can refresh themselves. This could prove to be a positive thing. Relentlessly positive. 🙂
Exactly. Our punitive, inadequate benefit system since the early 1990s, has hit women, especially mothers with young children very hard.
Carolyn_nth I agree with you totally with this. It’s just that I don’t see this shitstorm from the Greens improving that situation any time soon.
Perhaps if you stopped referring to it as a “shit-storm”, and quite rightly called it a reality check, we’d be on the path to improving that situation.
That’s the thing about resignations: there’s a before, and an after, but no during. Storms are defined by “during”.
+1
and
hahahahahah well said.
Nice one Molly!
No, it doesn’t. It just confirms some rather unfortunate things about your low character.
DPB instigated 1973 by Norman Kirk – man.
DPB gutted 2013 by Paula Bennett- woman.
Where to now with your juvenile anti male speech Anne?
Exceptions that prove the rule.
who was prime minister in 2013.
oh yeah, that was that dude John Key.
whom was Bennett working for in 2013?
Oh, yeah, that was that dude John Key, who was raised in a State House, by a mother on the widowers benefit.
no exception here. John Key said jump, and the ex solo Mother who made her whole life on the benefit asked how high. that is how Ms. Bennett gets paid.
@Kcco:
A bit of projection going on there?
[RL: Deleted. Not needed and off-topic.]
Ok then mods: I object strongly to the sexist statement ” note they are both men” think of the storm if it were implied that someone’s flaws were due to them being women? Worse, weka doubles down on it in her post. Pathetic hypocrisy.
[RL: Patience. Give me some credit here. This thread is emotional enough without this tangent being tossed into it.]
Your assumptions based on no evidence – and I suspect poor cognitive ability – says much about you. May I kindly suggest you move to ‘Your NZ’. I think that site will be more to your liking.
[RL: This is a fast moving thread and you may have missed my moderation above. Leave it here now both of you. Last warning.}
[Deleted]
[RL: Take a day off for ignoring moderation warnings to leave this alone.]
DPB cut 1991 by Jenny Shipley. So two National party cabinet ministers have tried to inflict maximum harm to single parents. And Anne Tolley is still trying….
Kennedy Graham was listed at a fairly achievable no. 8 in the Greens list. David Clendon at 16 would have been a bit more worried if Labour claws votes back from the Greens.
Oh well. When you play the game of thrones you either win or you die.
Also known as “You come at the king, you better not miss.” I guess these two over-valued themselves.
Simon Wilson in an April article on the GP 2017 list said this about Graham:
And James Shaw’s press release tonight:
Thanks, have updated the post.
We are disappointed they’ve made this decision, though we respect their right to do so.
“I’m telling you, either she goes or I go!”
“OK, seeya.”
“Er…”
“Wot you still here bro?”
I can hear something…
Coates is only sixty, and didn’t enter parliament until 2016 when Hague retired. He is likely to still have things he wants to accomplish yet. Can’t be bothered reading the original Spinoff Wilson piece to see why he was on these unnamed “many commentators’ “shouldn’t they retire?” lists”.
Wilson didn’t really explain in that piece – more insider gossip, I think.
This was a f_ck the Green party. They should have had the guts to step down months ago.
Have they known about this for months?
Usually its Labour that does this kind of thing, nice to see its being shared around 🙂
It was a white, silver fox greenlash.
The GP website page about Dave Clendon, includes this:
I regret the loss of Kennedy Graham – but I imagine that they will take surprisingly little support with them. Other parties don’t quite appreciate the robustness of the Green model – like the dual Spartan kings they insulate the party from the untimely departures or subversions.
Maybe we could get him to sub for Wayne – Kennedy’s a better thinker on his worst day.
Still as bloody infuriating as the timing must be for the Green loyalists here … and I fully acknowledge how they must feel right now … this did not happen in isolation.
Good people do not resign over one incident; there will be underlying tensions that are the root cause here.
I was quietly surprised to see Jeanette appearing with James Shaw the other day – it may well be that the appearance was to help reassure longstanding supporters.
I think you are right Red. Something else is going on here that we don’t know about. Is Metiria taking over? Forget James Shaw. What the hell is going on?
I don’t like it.
I’ve voted Greens three elections in a row now. This turns me more towards Labour. At least Andrew Little fell on his sword when he saw his actions were hurting the party publicly.
“True Green supporters” may go meh, but in the eyes of the general public it’s a bad look. This will hurt the Greens. Meteria Turei looks to be suffering from hubris to a number of people I’ve talked to – many of them Green supporters.
Although I wonder where the support they lose will go to – perhaps Mana, perhaps Labour. Doubt it will go to National.
The Greens are a party of principle. Good riddance to those two if they don’t understand it.
If it was, metiria wouldn’t be there.
They’re a party of their own principles not yours.
Put it in infused speak weka, principles which are always not concomitant with power, and having to be a smug prat.
I know you like the moral high ground infused, but your missing in action over much of the nasty stuff, so I’m going have to say you’d struggle with convincing me you have a moral compass.
More a put the boot in meter.
[RL: Deleted. For your own good.]
Dammit RL – I was looking forward to that 😀
You are joking Weka. Principles. What principles?
https://home.greens.org.nz/values
You should read the Charter too,
https://www.greens.org.nz/charter
What Weka said. I’d crawl over broken glass for Metiria Turei after the last couple of weeks.
Our values don’t align, Infused. I’m not sure you understand why that is.
[RL: Deleted. Flamewar not needed.]
Then you are a fool. You will destroy the Greens. To defend the benefit crook Turei how dare you! My beloved party defined by someone who has had everything handed to her? Raise a child (probably with the help of the father), a law degree on a benefit? Never worked? Are you bloody joking? Utterly disgusted and in despair!!
I won’t destroy the Greens, I’ll just vote for them.
The judgemental vitriol you’re indulging in is a huge part of the problem. Yes, it is. Yes indeed it is. You will deny it and yet that’s the fact of the matter.
Has it ever occurred to you that someone might be disgusted by your behaviour right now, never mind what you did twenty years ago? That’s right Hydrangea: I’m a working, law abiding taxpayer, and your behaviour disgusts me.
[RL: Take a week off for adding to the vitriol.]
“I’d crawl over broken glass for Metiria Turei after the last couple of weeks.”
Me too. Still knife edge stuff, but this is an utter game changer for me politically.
They apply real world principles, not phoney abstract principles.
I’m sure after the election, Turei will do what’s right for the party. The party process requires all members have a say in replacing a co-leader. Can’t be done now before the election, so continually insisting on it does the GP no favours.
The ‘principles’ of Green PMs Kennedy Graham and Dave Clendon are apparently incompatible with Metiria’s effective efforts to raise awareness of the challenges beneficiaries face by courageously describing her personal experiences in the 1990s.
Their decision to stand aside is welcome – Green Party MPs and election candidates must be united in support of their co-leaders, and in particular Metiria’s game-changing revelations.
Please stay the course – don’t know which party I could vote for if Metiria does not receive the backing needed to rise above the inevitable MSM storm in a teacup.
This is about integrity NOW – Metiria has it in spades.
Yep.
It has become obvious who is serious about removing poverty. And who is not prepared for doing anything to upset their comfortable illusions.
+1 Drowsy
Good bye and good riddance, they were never convincing as MPs
Rubbish – Kennedy could replace anyone on the Gnat front bench and be doing a better job by the end of the week.
+1. Not sure how this could work, but I hope another party picks him up.
Doesn’t say much. Someone off a park bench in Auckland could do a better job than any of the National front bench.
Agreed – I guess I meant back when the Gnats actually tried to govern.
Thinning the gerontocracy is a bad thing?.
Ageist snark is a good thing?
They’ve had their chance, piss or GTF off the pot.
Being old or being long-lasting seniors doesn’t make people sacred, and they should be able to defend themselves if criticised. If they have all their marbles they can stick up for themselves. And if they aren’t doing a good job then it’s better that they receive a message to shape up or ship out.
I was reading about an old guy of 85 years. Won’t stop going against Court order to stop him targeting, harrassing immigrants. You will have read of that rabid Arizona lawman? who has long been conducting a crude campaign of anti-immigration. Banned from doing it. Knows better, too old and stuck in his ways to change. At 85. Mugabe says ‘I won’t resign’. How old? That’s overseas, of course we don’t have a problem with people getting old and stuck in unsuitable patterns or being a sandwich short of a picnic. No way.
I’ve stated on another thread why I think the electoral roll revelation made MT position untenable, and she should have therefore resigned from Parliament.
I won’t rehash the arguments, but I surmise these 2 shared a similar view and tried to force the issue.
I don’t really see how this does anything to change the landscape, except intensify the feelings people already have on the matter. For those who thought MT should have resigned on Friday we’ll point to this type of incident as proof of how things are going to go. For those who thought she should stay, it will reinforce the position that all is for nought if she goes now.
Seems election day well be the final arbiter.
I’m always curious as to who you vote for when the party you represent crosses a line that you cannot accept?….or do you abstain?
Hi Pat,
In isolation both of MT’s main revelations are fine, it’s the nature in which they came out that means she now needs to resign in my humble opinion. It’s the politics of where we are now.
For example, in the Herald’s article about this, a party rep talks about how these MPs were asked to step down at the AGM and now had sour grapes, etc. That’s very likely true and in fact provable by minutes, etc. but 99.99% of the population aren’t going to look into the matter and half of them will view it as spin after the fact. Politics.
I honestly don’t see what the big deal in MT resigning now is. There are other people waiting in the wings who care about Social Justice just as much, and the GP can confirm their commitment to what she has started.
The more things unfold, the more it is going to look like MT is holding on for financial or selfish reasons, undermining not only what she has started but the whole Left campaign.
Wait till media start running stories about whether MT was even eligible for the DPB. I predict that next, I’m actually surprised it hasn’t happened yet, the dumpsters must be yielding nothing thus far. What happens to the campaign regarding benefits and the campaigns of the Green and Labour parties then?
To answer your question; what did the statisticians say to one another when they bumped into each other outside the polling booth? Don’t tell anyone from work you saw me here.
aside from the fact there is no good reason for MT to resign, should she now do so it is tantamount to an admission that the Greens will no longer champion the cause of the dispossessed in our country….who then will?….a democracy is not a democracy when it is not representative.
Does your anecdote suggest both resigning candidates will continue to vote for the party they have left….if so, what of principle?
Hi Pat,
In my opinion there are a number of good reasons for her to resign:
– To allow the Left’s campaign to start again
– To ensure that a Left coalition is acceptable to the 48% – 49% of the voting public required
– To remove any suggestion this is about clinging on to power or money
– To protect the progress MT has made on the issue
Speaking to the last point, I think people should reflect on what happens if any piece of evidence comes out that suggests MT was not eligible for the DPB. I don’t for a second believe MT would still be there if she thought was a big risk, but it just has to be credible, a former flat mate lying would be such a case so it is very risky.
Imagine what happens to the campaign for beneficiaries then, it would be put back a generation at least, and all the negative things a large block of the population believe about beneficiaries would be reinforced and extended in their minds. MT would become infamous as an example of why reform wasn’t needed and a rallying point against future reform.
In my humble opinion, that is what is really at stake here, and if you want proof go over and have a read at Kiwiblog, they’re mostly hoping MT holds on to the election. I wonder why…
Sorry for that anecdote, a little maths joke about the irrelevancy of a single vote. I usually hold my nose and vote each election, mainly because my vote is statistically irrelevant, and in between I advocate for politicians being treated like the rest of us, no matter what colour team they’re on.
well at least its a considered opinion though not one i agree with…
by point
– you assume ‘the Lefts’ campaign has stalled…..there is no evidence for that.(indeed it would appear to be advancing with the labour leadership change)
-the Greens position doesn’t have to be acceptable tp 48-49% of the voting public…it never has been, however it did receive a substantial lift after MTs sharing her experience…the majority of the voting public differentiate Green Labour just as they differentiate Nat/Act
-the power /money issue is moot…the call is to resign as leader, not MP…and what power?…any power will be conferred by “an outraged” electorate.
-as stated, resignation undoes everything her recounting has enabled…it would not preserve anything and send the message that the Greens(or anyone) will not advocate for the dispossessed.
a single vote is statistically irrelevant…unless its the one that changes the result.
Hi Pat,
It’s been nice chatting but we seem to have un-reconcilable opinions.
Time will tell how this plays out.
time indeed will…around 7 weeks of it
Shaw says they discussed everything before the announcement. It will be a shame if he has to resign next week! He should have kept away from this.
“What ya going to do when it’s not all about you” Kennedy Graham and David Clendon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O0Spn2eaSk&ab_channel=DizzeeRascalVEVO
The really gratifying thing about this latest news is that Pete George has been sin-binned from here and can’t throw in his 5 cents worth. He’ll be seething (I see semolina bubbling).
His blancmange will be ruined!
Curdled!
Ahhhh! The scent of a minor victory!
ah…aint factions fun…not.
Turei has found that crime doesn’t pay, depending. Depending on who you are.
Turei has learned that bullying works. She did wrong so for some she is a fair target until the day she passes away. Let’s do that with every miscreant, every age, any and every circumstance.
The thing is of course that if National weren’t so shit scared of losing the issue would not be such a big deal. What an ugly society we are.
Removing poverty is very important for a left leaning Government,
unfortunately Metiria’s comments do nothing to help the poor, changing the policy
WILL.
I do not think the comments could have been well thought through as in the long-term they might be harmful to the Greens.
Certainly losing someone with the knowledge Kennedy Graham has re :
Climate Change is a very big lose.
unfortunately Metiria’s comments do nothing to help the poor, changing the policy
WILL.
The policy got huge news coverage and a flood of social media support. Why do you think that was?
And considering Turei has been campaigning against poverty for many years now, as she ans Shaw have said, Turei was frustrated at the lack of widespread interest in all her campaigning through conventional means.
What will it take for large numbers of people to embrace real change on this?
Being defeated and having their cruelty brought home to them in ways they cannot ignore, that also leave room for rehabilitation.
I beg to differ…..MT has been shamelessly attacked for highlighting the plight of the dispossessed and bringing the topic out into the open is likely to help in both the short and longer term….especially if it galvanises many of the disengaged to vote.
I’d expect these two to resurface under the TOP banner.
Given that David Hay has already made this journey it’s entirely possible. But if Kennedy and Clendon do the leap to TOP before the election I’d be unhappily surprised. Still this past week or two has been full of surprises.
But if they do, it would indicative of something very interesting.
Wow, I didn’t realise that till now RedLogix. Admittedly I haven’t given TOP much time; given the vagaries of our electoral system, and their lacking a viable electorate. I see they also recruited Teresa Moore (ranked 26th on the 2014 GP list):
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/national/94970051/Another-former-Green-candidate-joins-Gareth-Morgans-TOP
ahhh, the best ‘party’ money can buy. lol
Then they should of have the metal to go their earlier. Otherwise they will look like bigger prats.
My thoughts exactly. I actually am starting to think that Morgan’s lot might crack 5%.
I won’t miss Clendon; rumour was that he wasn’t even going to be standing for the list this time but that was never a formal decision, just an understanding (which shows in his being awarded the lowest list ranking of any sitting MP). Graham is a bigger loss, and was still vital despite his age; it is a shame that his years of service to the party have ended on this sour note.
I think Shaw might be getting a bit ahead of himself when he says this gives; “Matt Lawrey and Elizabeth Kerekere”, any kind of chance at becoming MPs. As a rule of thumb 10% of the vote will get you 12 MPs (14 GP MPs off 10.7% in 2014). In the unlikely event that the high poll of 15% will carry through to the election, that translates to 18 MPs (maybe 19, depending on the number of votes; for sub5 % parties with no electorate MP, which get redistributed).
“Hayley Holt, Teall Crossen, Teanau Tuiono, [&] Leilani Tamu”, were ranked at 17 to 20 inclusive, so are now 15 to 18 and in with a decent chance. Lawry at 21 now 19, and Kerekere at 23 now 21, are a bit optimistic (and begs the question why; Chris Perley, at 22 now 20, was omitted from Shaw’s lineup). At least Denise Roche has risen from 15 to 14, so even if the GP gets the same result as last election, is likely to be back in parliament.
Shaw doing a press conference at 9.30.
Oh. Dear.
And Shaw confirms the caucus are backing Turei and feeling betrayed by Clevedon and Graham. Fuck yes.
He did *really* good in that press conference.
He did.
i liked him pointing out the double standard. 🙂
I liked Shaw’s response to a question, with; “well there isn’t dissension in the caucus now”. It was good to see a flash of personality from him for once, he often comes across as a serious suit.
+1 Sabine and Dspare.
that stuff from Shaw is gold. These are his class peers and he’s basically telling them to back off.
I know! Massive double standard with David Garrett resigning for something he did 32 years before becoming a MP and Metiria refusing to.
oh you mean stealing an identity of a dead baby to get a passport? – ghoulish, innit? You know, he is lucky he only had to resign. If he would have done something like that in the US, he would be living in Guantanamo Bay. You know, national security – terrorism n shit.
but hey, how about Bill English, defrauding 32.000$ in total, at weekly installments of 900$ for a 1.2 million dollar property he owned. Chutzpah! And he pretended to live in Dipton for voting purposes, while living full time in wellington.
oh, how about John Key? what was that, living in stylish Epsom while pretending to live in the rural backwaters of Helensville? Oh my, the poor dear.
but yeah, i get it. Its ok if National Party Members lie, defraud the state, harass employees, illegally release private information to the press, illegally tape employees and the likes.
poor dears. It must be really shitty to have to run an election on a record of record high increases in homelessness, kids with no homes, not enough food, and lacking shoes, overcrowded schools and hospitals, in fact the hospitals are running out of beds and surgical tools – luckily everyone gets a bargain at Mitre 10 – overcrowded roads – i hear the commute from South AKl to Central AKl is about as long as a flight to europe, wadeable rivers – but only in your waders, and so on and so on.
oh boy, i would hate to be a National supporter, all that pettiness, all that lack of gravitas and grace, no style, just ………..nothing. Vote for National, delivering nothing every day of the year.
he needed to steal a dead baby’s identity in order to feed his kids?
And twenty years later when he got done for it, didn’t he try to hide behind the same name suppression that he politically advocated against? And wasn’t there some issue about his claimed lack of criminal convictions not including a minor overseas one just a few years before the dead baby thing bit him in the arse?
Whereabouts in that process did he publicly declare the guilt that nobody else knew about? Well, except his party leader who tried to keep it under wraps, anyway.
James is having a busy time right now. Last night he was here in Thames at the launch of out local campaign. A very good crowd and lots of support for Meteria’s stand. The 3 major commitments :
1. Solid Action on Climate Change. Carbon Neutral by 2050.
2. Action of environment. Cleaning our streams and rivers and reforestation and commitment to Conservation. Conservation land will not be mined (very important issue here in the Coromandel where we are constantly fighting multinational gold mining interests. A petiton is to be presented to Parliament tomorrow by Catherine Delahunty as she makes her validictory speech.)
3. Solid commitment to end poverty in this country.
Such a pity these very important issues are being overshadowed by the need to polish the ego’s of the “righteous”.
I’m kind of in awe at how much the GP are doing at the moment.
And thinking through the whole fight for their principles in the midst of an artificial shitstorm vs policy and issues.
So magnanimous on the RNZ interview… So why the FUCK did they have to go public about it? Why not just piss off quietly?? Just when the GP was getting some traction. It’s like we do it on purpose!
Exactly. RNZ video interview (4 mins): http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/336665/video-green-party-in-chaos-after-two-mps-rebel
I feel that in some people there is such a focus on the environment and correct practices of farming that it exceeds the concerns about people in general who are seen as a problem, and Kennedy Graham may fit that hypothesis.
David Clendon has been pushed down the list by younger member Chloe Swarbrick and Jack MacDonald? and also he is of Ngapuhi and other tribe descent. He may feel that as he deals with business interests that they may see him as unreliable and
suspect.
Excuse me
Oh will you excuse me
I’m just trying to find the bridge… Has anybody seen the bridge?
Have you seen the bridge?
I ain’t seen the bridge!
Where’s that confounded bridge?
Well, it’s hardly a stairway to heaven…
🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRZ-IxZ46ng
Godammit! I didn’t rate James Shaw that much before tonight. he’s gone way up in my estimation.
He stood in front of the press gallery, looked them calmly in the eye, and defied all their calls for Turei to resign, GP in chaos, etc!
Said Turei and the GP will continue to fight against poverty. That many people had come forward in past couple of weeks, saying they were very pleased to finally see their issues were being talked about in parliament.
Said the GP had gained members and volunteers since Turei’s speech and confession.
+ 1 totally agree. What a safe pair of hands, I’m just so impressed with him.
Well good on him. Now watch their vote sink.
You can’t go calling for ethical standards across the board, then not sack one of your own.
Seriously, you really haven’t been paying attention.
It’s not about The Game. It’s about campaigning for people who now ritually get demonised in the mainstream, and for a change in the system.
the ethical standards are being upheld. Turei’s wrong doing was in the 1990s. get a clue!
People were full of praise for pardoning gay men who had been criminalised because of their sexuality years back.
Sometimes the law needs to be broken to show it needs changing.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/08/parliament-needs-people-like-metiria-turei-james-shaw.html#.WYfBW9R31uc.twitter
… ‘ Sometimes the law needs to be broken to show it needs changing ‘ …
And this is the whole crux of the matter . History has countless examples where this has been the case. 19th century England’s labour laws were a prime example , – as were the preceding century’s , the Magna Carta being one – albeit mainly to enrich the Barons and nothing to do with the peasants… but change it must. Especially when social conditions warrant it.
And Metiria brought attention to something that should have attended to decades ago – the social destruction caused by Ruth Richardsons ‘ Mother of all Budgets’ .
You weren’t at our campaign launch last night – or you wouldn’t be saying such things. One of the largest I can remember and full support from everyone for the stand MT has made. More volunteers and more enthusiasm than I can recall in many a campaign launch.
Obviously you have never had to “survive” on a benefit.
In Palmerston North, Turei got a standing ovation after she spoke. Not a lot of fretting about what right-wingers might think of her ethical standards there, either.
Speaking of palmy, I have only seen blue Nat bill boards up.
To be fair, I only come in to the city on rangitikei line or Kelvin grove, but no green, red or black bill boards.
I’d suggest that since a lot of their support comes from the well to do suburbs the Green party is going to get a big surprise at the upcoming election
You know chris – Last night I sat with a retired surgeon and a lawyer and I’m far from impoverished myself, and we all cheered when Meteria’s name was mentioned, and her determination to end poverty in this country.
I too can type in an anecdote but, unfortunately, we won’t know who is right until election night
“we won’t know who is right”
We can make an educated guess on both counts. Heh
Well as a National voter I have to say I’m giving more thoughts to party voting NZFirst this time around, which is something I never thought I’d do
Ah, the Shane Jones five knuckle shuffle effect in motion lol
I still can’t get over the paying for porn bit, not the porn itself but the paying for it
At the end of the day it probably cost about the same as a cup of coffee. And it cost him his marriage. There are much more serious rorts out there than Shane’s.
how about teh PM and his housing allowance on his million dollar property he owned? you could get over that?
i mean, a bit of porn in a hotel, how much would that have cost him? 50 bucks a night? You could actually say that Shane Jones was a cheap.
I love the response on here to this embarrassing situation, sort of reminds me of this a little a bit (even includes some singing):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJh6EQ5gv7g
I’m confident this won’t affect the green party share as much as some would like. The solidarity now being shown by the greens could do the opposite of labour’s usual old dissent and slump trick, and galvanise support rather than shed it.
What it comes down to, political gaming that it is, in what does supporting MT and throwing the two dissenters overboard cost in votes?
Staunch greens are granite at the ballot box. Die hard labour, nats and the minor parties would never have voted green, regardless. No loss there.
The #iamMetiria surge will see this continued backing, and if they get out and vote, surely won’t forget who has their backs through thick and thin.
Don’t let the right wing media and Ad direct the narrative. It’s still game on.
The #iammeteria surge will see this continued backing and if they get out and vote, surely won’t forget who has their backs through thick and thin.
I will remember perfectly well, and I know a fairweather friend when I see one. I won’t be painting my roof on election day, but I won’t be voting Labour either.
In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.
Anatole France, Le Lys Rouge [The Red Lily] (1894), ch. 7
yes, i posted this one the other day.
not voting Labour this year either. Voting for the female co-leader of the Green Party.
Just watched the video interview with the two on the RNZ site. Their demeanour had a relaxed dignity & their explanations were conscience-driven. Basically, for the left, it’s a question of whether the end justifies the means. The downside of her stand is too many voters believing that those who say yes are on the slippery slope to hell. Time will tell. I see the merit of both sides, so despite discovering myself considerably to the left on the political compass website, I’m moving towards a centrist view of this split.
I just watched it as well, and KG seems to strongly imply the contents of MT’s speech at the AGM were a surprise to them, as that is when they “first raised issues”.
I think this is officially a dumpster fire.
If Turei needed to claim a few extra dollars to help her through law school and get her and her kid out over poverty, compared to ending up long term on a benefit, then yes the ends justify the means, and this is the whole point of what she did. Benefits are deliberately set to be below what people can live on meaningfully. The system is broken and it needs to change.
“The downside of her stand is too many voters believing that those who say yes are on the slippery slope to hell.”
That’s up to them, but it’s nothing to do with the principles or kaupapa of the GP or whether Turei was right or wrong.
No, it’s about the law being wrong. That was Metiria’s point at the time and still is. She just used her own life as the example to prove that it was and people have simply gone on the attack rather consider her point.
Laws are made to be broken because in the breaking you can find where they’re wrong and improve them.
Are we truly so lost as to refuse to learn the lesson that is in front of us?
Their demeanour had a relaxed dignity & their explanations were conscience-driven.
So what? From the Toby Manhire piece quoted further down:
[Shaw will] know that it’s unlikely – deeply unlikely at this stage – that [others’] promotion will compensate for the damage brought upon the party, and the likely impact on their overall vote. And the vote of the centre-left as a whole.
…
Because of one thing there is no doubt: this is Christmas for the National campaign.
That’s what Clendon and Graham have achieved: Christmas for National’s campaign. Their last message they offer to voters on behalf of the Green Party is “Vote National!” Now they’ve done that, who gives a shit about their dignity or conscience? Not me – fuck ’em for betraying not only their colleagues but everyone who previously voted for them.
Never mind, it will all die down in a few days and go the Greens.
You’re probably right, Delia, & I’ll be voting green for the 10th election in a row, but I’m apprehensive that these two represent a groundswell discontent in the membership. It feels like it may be the old schism that destroyed Values re-emerging. Hope I’m wrong but my intuitions rarely are. The problem with shifting the party too far to the left is alienation of moderates, loss of goodwill, etc.
To far to the left?
Greens are not even to the left of Muldoon, yet!
What idiots. After watching the RNZ video interview of them they basically have decided to throw their party to the wolves because they don’t agree with one of their leaders. Complete plonkers, enjoy having a beer with Steffan.
The Greens are in disarray, leaving the left resurgence hanging by a thread
Toby Manhire hits nail on head
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/07-08-2017/the-greens-are-in-disarray-leaving-the-left-resurgence-hanging-by-a-thread/
Yep – that’s precisely how I read it
I can only hope like hell Jacindamania is a lot more potent among softly-aligned Nats than I’m expecting
Agreed, I made same point at 6.
Now we are going to have to live with a week – maybe two – of media saying:
“Left in disarray – stable alternative government impossible.”
Simply not the time to recover from that.
The worst aspect of this is it plays straight into National’s narrative of stable vs unstable. That is why Labour needs to show it’s teeth and Jacinda needs to ditch the MOU immediately to innoculate Labour against the Green infighting.
The Greens and Turei thought they’d be super clever vultures and try and eat Labour’s lunch when things were looking bad. Now their gambit has backfired, time for Labour to return the favour – with interest.
Yep. It will be interesting to see how Labour responds to this. I think they should ditch the MOU too, the Greens basically trashed it anyway.
You think Labour should combat National’s narrative of a left coalition being unstable by destroying the coalition? What the fuck?
There is no left coalition. The Greens amateur hour politics have destroyed that possibility.
Seriously! And not those in Labour or elsewhere on the left bagging the Greens and solid left politics at any opportunity?
The lust for power does look like the corrupter of a strong left future.
Rubbish scott – old ideas that are the OPPOSITE to what should happen. Get this – THERE IS NO CUTTING LOOSE IN A LEFT COALITION. It is not a goer, it is not possible it won’t work. All the running cowards should hide instead of talking like excited puppies.
The Green sense of exceptionalism never fails to amaze. They tried to do in Labour good and hard when they saw the possibility of kicking Labour when it was down and possibly steal a march to second place.
NEVER FORGET THE GREEN PARTY BROUGHT ALL THIS ON ITSELF BY BEHAVING IN THE MOST TRAITOROUS MANNER POSSIBLE TOWARDS IT’S PARLIAMENTARTY ALLY
Only, they’ve turned out to be to clever by half – first Turei couldn’t get her story straight and then they forgot that Labour may not play it’s part and roll over and die. Now the whole fucking mess has blown up in their face – internal disarray, widespread public blowback and their erstwhile “ally” Labour has elected Jacinda leader, who is busy sweeping all before her in the middle class Green strongholds.
And the Greens reaction to Labour, now they are cowering in the corner warding off the blows? to whine it would be mean to kick back and expect Labour to just turn the other cheek…
Well, the Green party can fuck right off. They’ll have to fight for every vote against everyone else just like everyone else, the back stabbing bastards.
Can’t grizzle about the beige passive aggressive in that. Can we?
Nice rewrite of history comrade. Continue yelping in your freigned and designed outrage. There is only a left COALITION – understand this to move into the 21st century thinking – you are behind the times in every way important.
Sorry about the spelling
That summary doesn’t seem to match with the news I’ve been reading/watching. Seems to be dramatic in all the wrong places…
Interesting that Key was not slammed for being enrolled in Helensville electorate while living in Parnell. Media weren’t interested in that, but they sure are happy to absolutely slay Meti for doing the same 25 years ago.
Perspective and all that.
Yes indeed, but if it were only the electoral fraud issue, the whole thing would just go up in a puff of smoke. Unfortunately, how this has rolled out leaves people wondering if the whole truth has been presented.
Media determines how things are ‘rolled out’, how much exposure stories are given, the narrative they take and so on.
For example late news last night… TVNZ did not mention anything about the Key/Helensville/Parnell comparison that James Shaw made about the matter, but Newshub did. Shaw made the comment while most press were in attendance, TVNZ would have had a soundbite/visual of it, they chose to leave it out of their report.
Just something I noticed.
While the fight against poverty must be fought and in time we need to see it is won, Meteria cannot, in all seriousness, wage this battle from where she is. She is just going to be met with derision and scorn whenever she tries to launch any attacks against it, she will not be in any position to attack on anything else at all.
She can and should stay within the party, but people, people, you must see, she cannot stay where she is. She will destroy the Greens if she does stay on as leader. We have not seen the worst of the fall out from this.
As I have said before, I suspect Shaw and other Green MPs had her back when she owned up to benefit fraud and clearly feel they owe her now, and maybe they do, but Meteria must look at how this is affecting the party and its chances to be involved in any government. She can remain and keep fighting the battle that she has taken the cudgels up over, but she cannot keep compromising the party as she is right now by remaining leader.
She no longer has any moral high ground to stand on to attack the Nats on, all they are going to do is throw this whole thing back in her face.
The Green message is going to be lost in all of this.
I will be canceling my Green Party membership if they do not do the right thing.
And along with others, I believe this shit will hurt Labour, they will have to uncouple from the agreement to save themselves, and if what the Greens are doing means another 3 years of Nats in govt, where to for solving the poverty issue.
Well with some on the left jumping on the MSM disproportionate witch hunt, what hope is their for the future of the left and real change? Timid warriors wanting the stamp of approval of the press gallery and maintainers of the status quo.
I went to bed last night buoyant. James Shaw did an excellent job standing up to the press gallery.
But the MSM won’t have it.
The more y’all want to bury courageous fighters against poverty like Metiria, the more some of us will stand by her and join the fight for REAL change.
She will have zero chance if she does not resign from the leadership.
My views come from ME, that is it. I am totally FOR seeing that poverty is eliminated, but Meteria has screwed up her own position from where to do it. By clinging on to the leadership as she is, she does not create a good look for herself. You really need to try to look at this from the outside looking in.
This is grim now, it could mean the Green vote is utterly decimated this election, is that what you really want?
Get a clue! the Green Party leadership decisions has to go to the membership. There is no time to do that before the election. So you want Metiria to stand down so the GP limps to the election with 1 co-leader? Imagine the field day the media will have with that!
Those of you jumping on the MSM bash Metiria band wagon, are thoughtlessly helping the right wing, NACTs et al.
Metiria and the GP are standing strong and fighting for a better society. People calling for Metiria to resign are trying to halt that, whatever you think you are doing.
You need to remember that perception is everything, nowhere is that more true than in politics. If you are going to win at it, you have to play it as you see, grandstanding generally gets you nowhere. You have to play smart to win in situations like this, Meteria is not playing smart.
If you are going to call others out on anything like fraud, you best be sure you have the moral high ground. This is going to get used against her. You do not seem to understand that I WANT a strong Green Party, this is not the way to do it, all this does is leave Meteria in particular, the Greens in general, with sodding great targets on their foreheads and they will get no cut through in parliament between now and the election and they will suffer in debates for it.
You MUST be able to see that.
For goodness sake! Turei has owned up. It’s in the past.
This now is just a sideline to the bigger fight.
Metiria and the GP is only a target if we allow it.
The strength of the left is in the people. Don’t put all the responsibility on Turei. If she fails, it’s all our failure.
Stop being diverted by right wing attack lines and start fighting the bigger battle for real change. The powerful people against change will always find some little distractions to attack the GP and the left with.
You want change? We all need to start taking responsibility and keep focused on the things and dominant values that need changing.
Stop whining, get some guts, focus on what needs changing instead of attacking allies.
+ 1 yep even the basics get lost when the heads get hot.
The perils of being left leaning in yr politics.
Tories on the other hand tolerate;
secret recording of staffers,
PM gratifying himself with little girls hair,
electoral improprieties,
political capital from corporate manslaughter,
gutting of funding of mental health, health and community support groups,
…..
Yet when an MP speaks of hardship and naivety from 20 years ago, stands firm with the most vulnerable, everyone loses their shit.
It is almost pythonesque: ‘My politics are purer than yours’.