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US Election Discussion Post 2/11/16

Written By: - Date published: 8:09 am, November 2nd, 2016 - 178 comments
Categories: us politics - Tags: , ,

In order to free up Open Mike and Daily Review for other conversations we are asking that all discussion, posting of links etc on the US election go in this daily dedicated thread rather than OM or DR.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

There will continue to be author-written posts on the US election as well, usual rules apply there too.

178 comments on “US Election Discussion Post 2/11/16 ”

  1. James 1

    A poll now has trump in the lead.

    I wonder what the Clinton camp will come out with today? The way this election is going nothing would surprise me.

    • weka 1.1

      Link to the poll please.

    • Manuka AOR 1.2

      Then this belongs here as well:
      This US election answers the question as to whether voters are easily manipulated.

      Voters might be forgiven for nominating Trump given the high level of dissatisfaction with the political establishment, but the evidence that something more disturbing is going on is abundant. Exhibit A is that his supporters have told pollsters they believe only Trump can be trusted to give them the truth. This is so laughably misguided it’s hard to know what to make of it. Every time he opens his mouth the fact checkers catch him lying.


    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3

      To put the recent polls into perspective, on Monday, 538 gave Putin’s candidate a ~21% chance of winning. He’s now at 27.9%.

      Today’s story detailing the links between these Russian and US fascists may change that.

      • james 1.3.1

        You mean the one where the FBI failed to find any conclusive or direct link between Mr. Trump and the Russian government?

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          They found more-or-less the same lack of evidence regarding HRC’s emails. It hasn’t stopped the denizens of drivel from messing themselves over it.

          It’s the optics.

          • Colonial Viper

            With HRC’s emails the FBI found several dozen email conversation chains which contained classified or secret materials which went through her private insecure server.

            She then lied about it in her testimony to Congress.

            All these facts are on the public record.

            • One Anonymous Bloke


              You’re pretending to care about facts. How cute.

            • dukeofurl

              “contained classified or secret materials”

              Which werent classified at the time, largely because they came from public sources.
              One of the” Secrets” was minutes of meeting between israel and palestine negotiators- which was published in an AlJazzerah doco.
              The so called Palestine Papers
              ‘It is the largest-ever leak of confidential documents related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, thousands of pages of diplomatic correspondence detailing the inner workings of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.”

              One of her aides sent this to Clinton- and absurdly it became TOP SECRET-afterwards

              Others were things like Drone attacks which we read in the papers or see on TV -yet is above Top Secret to become Special Access Secret

              This was clarified back in Jan

              • Colonial Viper

                Statement by Director Comey on July 5, 2016, relating to whether or not Hillary Clinton’s emails contained materials which were classified AT THE TIME that the email was sent or received:

                FBI investigators have also read all of the approximately 30,000 e-mails provided by Secretary Clinton to the State Department in December 2014. Where an e-mail was assessed as possibly containing classified information, the FBI referred the e-mail to any U.S. government agency that was a likely “owner” of information in the e-mail, so that agency could make a determination as to whether the e-mail contained classified information at the time it was sent or received, or whether there was reason to classify the e-mail now, even if its content was not classified at the time it was sent (that is the process sometimes referred to as “up-classifying”).

                From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about 2,000 additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent.


                • dukeofurl

                  Which is still repeating what I said.
                  Fact : No emails had classified headings at the time she received them- their were 3 which had C for confidential inside the text.

                  The reason they didnt have the classified headers were because they were from open sources.

                  You are just repeating nonsense. NO emails had classified markings. None. ( except 3 mentioned above at the lowest level)

                  You dont understand anything about ‘classified at the time’ or later ‘up classified’
                  The example I gave about secret meetings, ‘ minutes of meetings’ were inherently secret- even if they came from a TV station.
                  A newspaper report that just refers to a Yemen drone strike is innoucous enough but is up classified as the drone program across international borders is still secret, even if you dont have operational details ( which would make it a secret from the very start)

                  You should get Putin to provide details on US security classifications

      • dukeofurl 1.4.1

        LA Times ‘tracking poll’ is a sort of hybrid between random sampling which is the gold standard and self selecting online poll which is rubbish.
        They require their pool of voters to regularly return to ‘revote’ and its heavily weighted to make it seem like a ‘radom poll’ which matches the voting population’

        LA Times has been consistently over weighted to Trump

  2. Manuka AOR 2

    One election, two sets of rules:

    “Different rules for the Donald: An unfair set of standards apply only to Hillary Clinton”
    Clinton is, more than ever, the #TBT (or TimeBeforeTrump) candidate, a throwback to an era of campaigning when a modicum accountability was expected. Meanwhile, there is no such expectation for Trump.

    The letter of James Comey, the FBI director, regarding the discovery of additional emails related to Clinton’s term as secretary of state illustrates the point. Trump has been allowed to get away with practically hundreds of grievous trespasses that would have doomed all other presidential campaigns. Yet this letter, which contained almost no specifics and which might turn up exactly nothing, appears to be precipitously shrinking Clinton’s lead in early tracking polls. And it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.
    Fold into the mix the fact that Trump is facing a civil trial on accusations that he raped a 13-year-old girl, and his poll numbers somehow just 3 points worse than Clinton’s damn emails? And by the way, the latest story has nothing to do with her “home brew” server, since the computer in question doesn’t belong to her. Nor did Comey imply there was any wrongdoing. Nor did Comey reveal how many emails are copies of what the bureau already possesses. Nor did Comey say that any emails were sent by Clinton herself. Nothing. The extent of the story was we have emails. That’s it.

  3. Andre 3

    Even if there’s nothing behind some of the more exotic stories about possible Trump-Russia links, there’s still plenty of solidly documented stuff to be concerned about.


  4. Obersever Tokoroa 5

    .The problem for Trump is that his band of followers are whinging old “lost sheep” former employees. There wives are getting work.

    . You would think the men could at least stop sucking their thumbs and go out and do something for their families.

    . Oh No. Trump will suckle them at his breast.


  5. Manuka AOR 6

    The then-thirteen (yes, 13) year old girl who filed rape charges against Trump earlier this year, said in those court papers that the threats to silence her included reference to a 12 year old girl who had then disappeared. The witness to all the events was a girl who worked at the premises at that time. That witness says the 12 year old was also raped by Trump, before she (was) disappeared:


    The rape case is due to be heard on 16th December.

    • Pasupial 6.1

      There must be some statute of limitations that has expired which explains why this is only being pursued through the civil courts. Otherwise those witnesses are surely incriminating themselves:

      Both witnesses say they worked as “party planners” for billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, who paid them to “attract adolescent women” to events he hosted at the Wexner Mansion in New York.

      Tiffany Doe says in court documents that she lured Jane Doe to a party with the promise of money and meeting contacts in the modeling industry.

      She claims in the documents that she personally witnessed the girl being forced to engage in various sex acts with Trump and Epstein, who she said were aware of her age.

    • Lanthanide 8.1

      There’s a fair chance he’s dyslexic.

      • Andre 8.1.1

        Interesting comment. A quick google didn’t turn up anything. So why do you think he might be dyslexic?

        • Lanthanide

          Saying “Trump can’t read!” is far too extreme. Saying “Trump might be dyslexic?” is a lot more reasonable. I’d suggest the chances of someone being a billionaire and not being able to read is pretty much vanishingly small.

          Also, among business owners and entrepreneurs, there is a much higher incidence of dyslexia than amongst the general population – in one study in the US, 35% of business founders call themselves dyslexic, vs 15% of the general population.


          • Andre

            You do realise Bee’s piece is a comedy piss-take on how conspiracy theories start, right?

            • Lanthanide

              Yes, and I’m saying you can take her comedy piss-take and turn it into a more believable conspiracy theory by saying he’s dyslexic, because all the same evidence fits.

              • Andre

                Ok, but then it seems to me that would also be mocking people who actually are dyslexic, and perpetuate a stigma against dyslexics. By blatantly going so far over the top by saying Trump can’t read it successfully mocks Trump and conspiracy theorists, but seems to me it avoids mocking people who actually can’t read (because it’s so far OTT).

  6. AsleepWhileWalking 11

    I posted an Alex Jones interview with her yesterday, but here she is with a different interviewer.

    Once all votes end up at a centralised computer the tampering happens. A predetermined percentage of the vote is allocated to the winner, determined not by democratic election but in advance by those who seek to install the president of their choice.

    In other words as long as Hillary Clinton is running, she wins.

    • Chooky 11.1

      does this method of final counting/collating of regional votes electronically …”fractional voting”…have implications for New Zealand?

      ….and last Election?…especially with ‘early voting’ , the results of which were counter intuitive to many?



      • Colonial Viper 11.1.1

        IMO it means that we must NEVER go to electronic/internet voting, and that our paper voting systems have clear physical audit trails available at all times.

        • Pasupial

          Hey look at that! CV mk2.0 has actually written something with which I wholeheartedly agree. It is not just actual vote fraud that must be avoided to retain any semblance of democracy, but also even the appearance of such fraud.

    • dukeofurl 11.2

      No proof. Hint guy sitting in his darkened garage saying Conspiracy!

      As far as Im aware US voting is decentralised down to the County/City level. the voter rolls are done at State level

  7. Puckish Rogue 12


    Looks like Clintons taking lessons from NZLabour

    “Clinton campaign officials have dismissed a poll suggesting that Donald Trump may have taken the lead in the final days before Tuesday’s election, insisting they see no evidence of a negative impact from Friday’s new FBI email disclosures”

  8. AsleepWhileWalking 13

    Sorry, I linked to the wrong video, but this covers the issue and directs to more info should you want to view it.

  9. Colonial Viper 14

    Hillary Clinton and the Global Shale Gas (fracking) Initiative

    If you believe that Sec. Hillary Clinton is now publicly against climate change and for the environment, you should know that in office she pushed countries around the world to adopt fracking by massive energy companies.

    The Global Shale Gas Initiative, Clinton’s program for promoting fracking, was announced on April 7, 2010, by David Goldwyn, the State Department’s special envoy for energy affairs, at the United States Energy Association (USEA), whose members include Chevron, ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, and Shell.

    In a widely covered event in Krakow three months later, Clinton announced that “Poland will be part of the Global Shale Gas Initiative,” and the State Department would “provide technical and other assistance.”

    Goldwyn, who did not respond to multiple requests for comment, spoke to National Journal last month, explaining that “[Clinton’s] instruction to me was that it was OK to talk about helping other countries get access to their own resources, as long as the focus of our engagement was how they could do it safely and efficiently, and that’s why the program had almost an entirely regulatory focus.” Goldwyn emphasized that the shale gas initiative was not designed to help the private sector and instead should be seen as “a really very modest government-to-government.”

    But the emails show an aggressive effort to engage private energy companies and use Poland as part of a larger campaign to sell fracking throughout the region.


    Mother Jones has more in a piece titled How Hillary Clinton’s State Department Sold Fracking to the World

    I wonder if any of the energy corporations concerned also donated money to the Clinton Foundation?


    • TheExtremist 14.1

      Way better to throw your lot in with Donald “Climate Change is a Chinese Conspiracy!” Trump

      • Colonial Viper 14.1.1

        Well, I don’t like Trump’s position on climate change.

        But I am pointing out above how Hillary Clinton used the office of Secretary of State to push the big corporation fossil fuel fracking agenda around the world, even as she now says on the campaign trail how concerned she is about climate change and the environment.

        • TheExtremist

          As Sec of State that is kinda her job to promote US interests around the globe so your just using weasel words when you say she “used” the office of Secretary of State.

          As to fracking her and Trump probably have the same energy policies I would wager (except Trump is climate change denialist) so basically I have no idea what you are trying to say,

          • marty mars

            I’ll break it down – Clinton = bad, trump = good. The rest is padding.

            • Colonial Viper

              Just trying to show you what you can expect from Hillary Clinton in high public office, based on what she did the last time in high public office.

              • Sure Clinton = bad, we get your lines they are repetitive.

                • Colonial Viper

                  I think you might like my next one, then. I found it just for you.

                  • Like/unlike you’ll keep churning them out cos that is all you’ve got – I’m not worried – used to it from you – it is boring and you are desperate and grasping but that is typical for trumpeters so all good.

              • McFlock

                Just trying to show you what you can expect from Hillary Clinton in high public office

                But that’s why you waste so much space, you silly little cucumber! We already know.

                We already know that were it not for Sanders she’d most likely be campaigning in support of the TPP right now.

                We already know that she’s economically right wing and supports free trade.

                We already know that she supports drone strikes the world over.

                We already know that she’ll be confrontational with China and Russia, particularly in emerging Arctic sea lanes and other geopolitical flashpoints.

                We already know that Sanders would have been a much better president.

                We already know that like most elected officials these days, her policies in office will have half an eye on post-political income streams.

                We already know that her husband is probably a rapist.

                We already know that, being a lawyer, she’s probably been involved in transactions that were convoluted and possibly illegal. That’s just lawyers for you (present readership excepted of course 😉 ).

                You don’t need to incompetently parrot partial recollections of other rwnj’s convoluted fantasies about her, we already know that she won’t be the best possible president.

                But she’d still be a better president for the US and the world (including NZ) than a petulant, impulsive, stupid, avaricious, narcissist who seriously proposes things that no sane candidate would even joke about. Things like ditching the nuclear nonproliferation treaty, targeting known innocents in drone strikes as vengeance against suspected terrorists, and launching political prosecutions against his opponents.

                Those are the two options facing american voters. That’s reality. No stein, no sanders. The next president will either be Clinton or Trump.

          • Colonial Viper

            Maybe I should crosscheck to see if the “United States Energy Association” has previously donated to the Clinton Foundation, or paid big money to either of the Clintons for speeches.

            What do you reckon the chances are?

    • Chooky 14.2

      +100 CV…that woman is so corrupt

      • AsleepWhileWalking 14.2.1

        And I note Bernie STILL hasn’t withdrawn his support for her nomination. At least now all his supporters can redirect the energy they once had hoping he would make a difference into something else that may eventually make things better. Or perhaps even great again.

        • Andre

          Yeah, it’s so surprising how Hillary’s strongest supporters are people that have actually worked with her. Or done business with Trump.

          • marty mars

            Yeah i noticed that too. It’s almost like they are using their brains instead of their bias.

          • One Two

            Why is it a surprise, Andre?

            Have you managed to miss the band of perverts, pedos and thieves, arms dealers, war mongering murderers and environmental destroyers occupying the USA?

            Having your head in the sand will do that!

  10. Andre 15

    Some detail on one of Trump’s more …interesting…supporters.


  11. Colonial Viper 17

    Devastating: Leslie Wimes, the president of the Democratic African-American women’s caucus [FL.] says: It’s over now as far as the [Floridan] African-American community is concerned.

    Watch the interview if you want to get a feel for the message. According to Wimes, Hillary Clinton’s campaign has made a critical, unrecoverable error.

    To my mind, this is *exactly* what Donald J Trump means when he says at his rallys that Hillary Clinton takes the African American vote for granted. And according to Wimes, African American turnout – which was absolutely critical to Obama’s 2012 win – is going to be a disaster for Hillary.

    [Leslie Wimes:] She [Hillary Clinton] had time back then to get into the community and get people out to vote. Now, you know, the numbers are the numbers. There’s nothing she can do now.

    As far as bringing in all of the surrogates, I said then that wasn’t going to get the African-American community to the polls. It didn’t work. The numbers are the numbers. What she can do now is hope the Hispanic community can carry her over the top. To be honest with you I don’t see it happening.


  12. Bill 19

    Some loose thoughts on possibilities… just ruminating.

    If Clinton gets in a fair proportion of the left will be paralysed – cleaving to ” give her six months” type lines or ” Bernie says…” nonsense.

    If Trump gets in, the whole of the left will be galvanised.

    If Clinton gets in, a lot of the really bad shit she can be expected to unleash will fall on people outside of the US who had no say whatsoever in which evil clown became the most powerful politician in the world.

    If Trump gets in, his really bad shit can be expected to land primarily on the US population.


    Maybe the US election is a further sign that the grotesque carousel of liberal social democracy is finally slowing to a stop?

    In election after election and in issue after issue “the establishment” is being rejected and doesn’t appear to have anything to offer beyond some themed iteration of “project fear” …

    • Andre 19.1

      You’re dreaming if you think Trump’s bad shit will be in any way contained in the US.

      • Bill 19.1.1

        Well seeing I never said “contained” then, innit?

        (fuck, I wish people would read comments before replying)

      • Puddleglum 19.1.2

        It would be remarkable if the next US President – whoever it turns out to be – did not spread liberal amounts of ‘bad shit’ around certain (large) parts of the globe.

        If they didn’t they would be breaking with an as yet unbroken tradition, certainly in the 20th century and, to the extent that America’s growing power made it possible, in the 19th century (Haiti, the Philippines and on and on …).

        In the last 60 years that ‘bad shit’ has had various euphemistic names: The Cold War, The Domino Theory (Vietnam et al.), The War on Terror (Reagan’s), The War on Drugs, The War on Terror II (G.W. Bush’s), The Gulf War (Bush Senior), Gulf War II (Bush Junior), The Arab Spring (more correctly, in hindsight, The Arab Cyclone Season), The War on ISIS (or whatever it’s called – maybe The War on Terror III) … and, now, presumably, The Cold War II.

        Undermining, overturning and simply militarily removing governments is BAU for the US (as it is for less dominant regional and wannabe world powers – as we’re witnessing in Yemen and Syria currently).

        Caught up in that BAU model are the local populations whose lives are the final receptacles for the ‘bad shit’.

        ‘Bad shit’ is part and parcel of being one of the world’s mafia Dons – and, of course, some ‘Dons’ are better than others; but they’re still all Dons.

        The US election won’t change this constant policy direction.

    • Pasupial 19.2

      You’ve actually got the one convincing point I’ve yet read for voting for Trump. However, I don’t agree that there will be space remaining where; “the whole of the left will be galvanised”. Unless he provokes a military-industrial coup, I fully expect a Trump presidency to be declared perpetual and heriditary, elections abandoned, and brownshirts on the streets to enforce the leader’s edicts.

  13. joe90 20

    I guess he’s cancelling those billions of climate change spending to fulfill his military spending promises.

    Trump pledged to expand the Army to 540,000 active-duty troops from its current 480,000, increase the Marine Corps from 23 to 36 battalions – or as many as 10,000 more Marines – boost the Navy from 276 to 350 ships and submarines, and raise Air Force tactical aircraft from 1,100 to 1,200.

    Trump said those numbers were based on assessments by the conservative Heritage Foundation and other groups. Heritage said in a report that it looked at the capacity needed to handle two major wars to determine its force-size recommendations.



  14. joe90 21

    Crooks and Liars published this…..

    FBI Officially Goes Rogue, Dumps 15-Year Old Records Of Clinton Foundation Inquiry Online

    After being dark since 2015, the FBI account which tweets out record dumps they place online began tweeting this weekend after Comey’s letter went public.

    Through the weekend, the tweets were innocuous, but certainly ones that would garner some attention. Like these:


    ….so I checked the authors twitter account…and down the rabbit hole I went…

    And he knows this how? https://t.co/QCnMQkHnrU— NastyWoman (@Karoli) November 1, 2016

    Trump says "there are FBI inquiries probing virtually every member of Clinton's inner circle." Ok . . .— Ben Jacobs (@Bencjacobs) November 1, 2016

    1. FBI goes rogue, dumps documents about dead Marc Rich inquiry. https://t.co/ENxCM5sU552. FBI offers lame excuse https://t.co/3zQZsyUIvl— NastyWoman (@Karoli) November 1, 2016

    Apparently @FBI having trouble coming up with an excuse for their document dump earlier today. I'm shocked.— NastyWoman (@Karoli) November 1, 2016

    To recount: We have a rogue NY FBI office. Voter suppression efforts rampant in swing states. WE MUST GOTV— NastyWoman (@Karoli) November 1, 2016

    If you want to understand how dangerous a Trump presidency would be, consider the use of the FBI as oppo researcher for him.— NastyWoman (@Karoli) November 1, 2016

    Just read all 129 pages. Basically the only unredacted information is the original complaint, repeated. The FBI is attempting a coup.— NastyWoman (@Karoli) November 1, 2016

  15. joe90 22

    The tiny fisted fascist seems determined to salt the electoral process.

    Trump: If HRC elected, it would create "constitutional crisis" and "the work of government would grind to an unbelievable, unglorious halt."— Sarah McCammon NPR (@sarahmccammon) November 1, 2016

  16. Puckish Rogue 23


    Don’t know if this has been posted but it looks like the media message is changing so not good for Clinton

  17. grim 24

    Rather amusing,

    I do not support Trump, but oppose Hillary and the Clinton crime family

    Postpone the election: clean house, including Obama impeachment.

    That is my opinion.

  18. One Two 25

    So much energy ‘debating’ eachother when the actual problems are elsewhere

    Perhaps the sense of helplessness at reaching those responsible for the evil is to big an obstacle to grapple with

    Better to argue and throw insults at some other poor sap while wishing praying and believing the ‘winner’ might represent opportunity for ‘genuine change’

  19. Chooky 26

    NOT the mainstream media…Internet GONE WILD ! ( if even a smidgen of this is true it is dynamite!…US politics or any politics will never be the same again)

    ‘Anonymous Release Bone-Chilling video of Huma Abedin every American Needs to See’


    …and Lionel’s take:

    ‘Hillary in Freefall: DikiLeaks, Weinergate, ComeyCon and Huma Benched’

    previous Lionel takes :

    ‘Comey Is Correct, Hillary’s Panicking, Huma’s a Grease Spot and Weinergate II Moves On’

    ‘Weiner’s Revenge, Huma Goes Jimmy Hoffa and Hillary’s Toast’

    • Colonial Viper 26.1

      Listening to Lionel – LOTUS for POTUS – is a pleasure.

      • Pasupial 26.1.1

        You have a strange idea of pleasure CV. The; too libertarian to let himself be called libertarian, Michael Lebron’s half hour of his own face and flailing hands is too much for me. I imagine he is more effective as a radio talk show host, and in brief RT clips.

        • Chooky

          re speaking of Lionel and “pleasure”….Lionel’s music is a “pleasure”

          Theme song: ‘Gipsy Kings – Nina Morena’

          Closing Theme Song: ‘Soul Makossa – Manu Dibango’

    • joe90 26.2

      Anonymous Release Bone-Chilling video of Huma Abedin

      The purported source links to O’keefe’s discredited fantasy factory.

      It’s not the Anonymous channel.

    • Chooky 28.1

      can you sumarise that?…i am scared to go in there in case they think I am a hacker and come and get me

  20. adam 29

    Trump is no longer that goof ball, he is now seriously FUBAR!!

    Let Samantha Bee clear it up for you

  21. adam 30

    Are you scared yet – you should be —– here is part two.

  22. grim 31

    Did you just block my IP…again? ah yes you have.

    ooh that’s nasty. why because I posted a link to FBI gov page?

    This site is compromised, not just biased.

    ( tried multiply browsers you dicks, knew you were gatekeepers, posting from proxy)

    [not sure which dicks you are referring to, but non of the IPs you’ve used in the past day are in the black list. I note that the comment you are referring to is now visible. If your or anyone’s comments aren’t appearing and you haven’t had a note from a moderator, then the most likely reason is the thing where people’s comments randomly go into moderation. It’s happening to my comments currently too and there is at least one other regular commenter being affected as well as individual comments form people. Lynn will fix it in due course no doubt, but I’d suggest that instead of defaulting to a conspiracy theory and abuse, next time you inform Lynn and give him some information to work with – weka]

  23. Murray Simmonds 32

    At last . . . . An article that convincingly summarises where all this is/should be heading:


    And the “Click bait” i.e. a quote from the above):

    “I have not seen a single news report mention the phrase “obstruction of justice” yet, but I am convinced that there is a very good chance that this is where this scandal is heading. The following is the relevant part of the federal statute that deals with obstruction of justice…

    Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsified, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed under Title 11, or in relation to or contemplation of any such matter or case, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.”

    • joe90 32.1

      Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsified, or makes a false entry in any record, ect

      Trump’s a goner.

      Over the course of decades, Donald Trump’s companies have systematically destroyed or hidden thousands of emails, digital records and paper documents demanded in official proceedings, often in defiance of court orders. These tactics—exposed by a Newsweek review of thousands of pages of court filings, judicial orders and affidavits from an array of court cases—have enraged judges, prosecutors, opposing lawyers and the many ordinary citizens entangled in litigation with Trump. In each instance, Trump and entities he controlled also erected numerous hurdles that made lawsuits drag on for years, forcing courtroom opponents to spend huge sums of money in legal fees as they struggled—sometimes in vain—to obtain records.


      • grim 32.1.1

        More gas lighting, accusing others of that which you do yourself, narcissistic trait, everything the Clinton campaign has accused Trump of, they have done 10 times worst, wait and see what Bill has been up to 🙂

    • Colonial Viper 32.2

      Hannity lists out just a few of the USC Title 18 laws that Hillary Clinton is likely to have broken. They include:

      Unauthorized Removal And Retention Of Classified Documents Or Material
      18 U.S.C. § 1924
      Class: A Misdemeanor
      Possible Penalty: Imprisonment for 1 year and/or $100,000 fine

      Text: “Knowingly removing materials containing classified information of the United States with the intent to retain said info at an unauthorized location without the authority to do so”


      Gathering, Transmitting Or Losing Defense Information
      18 U.S.C. § 793
      Class: Felony
      Possible Penalty: Imprisonment for 10 years and/or $250,000 fine

      Text: “Allowing [by means of gross negligence] any document relating to the national defense to be removed from its proper place of custody or destroyed –or- willfully retaining unauthorized documents relating to national defense and failing to deliver them to the United States employee entitled to receive them –or- failure to report that unauthorized documents relating to national defense were removed from their proper place of custody or destroyed”


      Destruction, Alteration, Or Falsification Of Records In Federal Investigations And Bankruptcy

      18 U.S.C. § 1519
      Class: Felony
      Possible Penalty: Imprisonment of no more than 20 years, a fine, or both

      Text: “Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States”


      • dukeofurl 32.2.1

        Been there done that

        Those sort of possibilities came up during the previous closed email investigation.

        There was nothing in it. No intent or the documents were from public sources ( but later classified)

        Even I can see through an idiot like Hannity- who is said to be in top 3 at Fox News ratings but translates to miniscule 500-600K viewers.

        That translates to NZ viewer numbers of 8000 Thats not an error.

        Source for US viewer numbers

        • Colonial Viper

          There was nothing in it. No intent or the documents were from public sources ( but later classified)

          My understanding is that most of these laws do not require “intent.”

          For instance, accidentally leaving behind top secret documents on a bus seat will get you charged exactly the same. Although sentencing might take the circumstances into account.

          Secondly, I have already debunked your materials were from “public sources” defence. From the FBI website:

          From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time


        • Colonial Viper

          Even I can see through an idiot like Hannity- who is said to be in top 3 at Fox News ratings but translates to miniscule 500-600K viewers.

          That translates to NZ viewer numbers of 8000 Thats not an error.

          Source for US viewer numbers

          Ahhh yes it is an error. You fucked up. For starters where did you get 500K to 600K viewers from?

          And Hannity’s show has a viewership well above anything on CNN and MSNBC.

      • North 32.2.2

        We love the “underrated” Hannity !

    • Chooky 32.3

      +100…thanx Murray Simmonds…very interesting ….and follows on from what Lionel ‘LOTUS FOR POTUS’ is saying above above…’Weinergate’

      Who is Lionel?


  24. McFlock 33

    Jesus. Trump must be looking at millenia then…

  25. Manuka AOR 34

    Things Trump has said about Elizabeth Warren – page full of stuff, all linked through to verify (they’re not nice). “Donald Trump’s Open Carry”:

    Recently, the New York Times produced a veritable thesaurus of Trumpian twittery — every insulting tweet of The Donald’s that their researchers could find since he declared his candidacy. It’s quite a collection in which he goes after 282 people, places, and things in his uniquely abusive fashion. (Don’t even get me started on his tweets about Hillary Clinton; you’d be reading until tomorrow.) Here, instead, is a relatively limited list of his, a tiny entry of classic nastiness aimed at a peripheral character in this year’s election campaign, Senator Elizabeth Warren:

  26. Pasupial 35

    Does anyone here have the IT experience to assess this?

    A US cybersecurity firm hired by a Russian bank to investigate allegations of a secret line of communication with the Trump Organization said on Tuesday there was no evidence so far of substantive contact, email or financial links.

    Mandiant, which is owned by the California-based company FireEye, said it examined internet server logs presented to the bank by media organisations investigating the link… Moscow-based Alfa Bank, owned by two oligarchs, Mikhail Fridman and Pyotr Aven. Aven worked with Vladimir Putin in city government in St Petersburg in the early 1990s…

    “It doesn’t act like a marketing server. Because you wouldn’t use a heavy-duty mailer with over 80% of its communication with just one organisation,” Camp said. “I don’t know of any marketing campaign that would do that.”

    According to Slate, the Trump email domain was hastily reconfigured after a New York Times reporter approached Alfa Bank about the connection in September.


    there was DNS traffic from specific machines that showed a lot of lookups to this box, and lookups from this box back to those machines.

    Moreover, they weren’t evenly distributed and constant as you’d expect from a botnet, or one-way as you would expect from a “zombie” or compromised system used by a hacker. Instead the times of these lookups corresponded to a human-like conversation cadence — message goes one way, and a few moments later, another message goes the other way. These transfers also happened during business hours in their respective time zones, such that someone (likely at work) was initiating the process… and then the conversation would convene again from the other direction, again while someone was at work checking email…

    At some point soon after the Russian bank, Alfa, was asked about this weird traffic pattern, the DNS records for Trump’s mail server got taken down. However, they weren’t really taken down correctly…

    When the system came back up, it came up under another name as part of a different domain. Now, this is where another “odd coincidence” pops up. Normally if you do this, the original server disappears, and a completely new one takes its place. It’s virtually impossible to guess at the new host’s name. However, in this case, the Alfa bank server was the first system to lookup the new hostname.

    Ponder this: It didn’t attach directly via IP, using a cached DNS record from the previous name (and the assumption here is that the new server kept the old IP address). It asked for the new host name from DNS.

    This can only mean one thing: someone had to relay the new name of the server to the Alfa bank personnel, so that the conversation could be resumed.


    So on the one hand, you’ve got a; US cybersecurity firm hired by a Russian bank (run by a crony of Putin’s) unable to find conclusive evidence of communication. On the other, you’ve got some one who works with IT systems demonstrating that communication. I don’t know enough to go look at the activity logs myself, perhaps someone else here has done so?

    • Colonial Viper 35.1

      These transfers also happened during business hours in their respective time zones, such that someone (likely at work) was initiating the process… and then the conversation would convene again from the other direction, again while someone was at work checking email…

      This can only mean one thing: someone had to relay the new name of the server to the Alfa bank personnel, so that the conversation could be resumed.

      I reckon Donald Trump was ordered by Vladimir Putin to electronically pass Russian porn provided through Alfa Bank (which Trump is in no doubt in hock to up to his eyeballs) to Anthony Weiner in order to compromise Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign by drawing attention to an old laptop that Huma Abedin used to use but which was in Anthony Weiner’s possession.

      It’s the only logical explanation.

      • Pasupial 35.1.1

        I’m more interested in the comment of someone who knows what they are talking about. Go spin your bullshit some place else.

        • Colonial Viper

          Geeez man where did you bury your sense of humour this afternoon.

          • Pasupial

            Under a large pile of quite technical analysis in a field (IT) that I have only the loosest grasp of. I still have my sense of humour, what I’m lacking is patience.

    • Stillwaters 35.2

      The Intercept says that the Trump empire regularly spams out hotel deals and the traffic between the two servers is a result of this spam and a Russian server trying to locate the source of the spam.

      I have probably oversimplified but the tech stuff is discussed in the article.


      Is the Intercept an accepted source here?

      • Colonial Viper 35.2.1

        As long as Glenn Greenwald considers The Intercept worth writing for himself, I would suggest yes.

      • Pasupial 35.2.2

        Thanks for the link Stillwaters. If I recall correctly, the main thing I recall from that Intercept piece is that; the anonymous source was unwilling to provide a complete activity logs to The Intercept analyst.

        However, I fell asleep while reading another more technical take on it, and it has all gone a bit blurry now.

    • Chooky 35.3

      …here is someone who knows what they are talking about:

      ‘Debunking Trump’s “secret server” ‘


      …” The evidence available on the Internet is that Trump neither (directly) controls the domain “trump-email.com”, nor has access to the server. Instead, the domain was setup and controlled by Cendyn, a company that does marketing/promotions for hotels, including many of Trump’s hotels. Cendyn outsources the email portions of its campaigns to a company called Listrak, which actually owns/operates the physical server in a data center in Philidelphia.

      In other words, Trump’s response is (minus the political bits) likely true, supported by the evidence. It’s the conclusion I came to even before seeing the response…

      The big story isn’t the conspiracy theory about Trump, but that these malware researchers exploited their privileged access for some purpose other than malware research…

      In short, of all the sources of “DNS malware information” I’ve heard about, none of it would deliver the information these researchers claim to have (well, except the NSA with their transatlantic undersea taps, of course)…

  27. joe90 36

    I wonder what the Dumpffs think of Blackwater founder Erik Prince financing a pro-Trump super PAC.


  28. joe90 37

    Remember, to win Trump must win Florida but even if he wins Florida, he could still lose.

    28% of Florida early voting Republicans have voted for @HillaryClinton— Lawrence O'Donnell (@Lawrence) November 2, 2016

  29. joe90 38

    WTF – an investigation based on news stories and a book.

    In August, around the same time the decision was made to keep the Manafort investigation at a low simmer, the F.B.I. grappled with whether to issue subpoenas in the Clinton Foundation case, which, like the Manafort matter, was in its preliminary stages. The investigation, based in New York, had not developed much evidence and was based mostly on information that had surfaced in news stories and the book “Clinton Cash,” according to several law enforcement officials briefed on the case.


  30. grim 39


    thought I posted this before, why this is double interesting,


    Palantir-Gotham used by FBI and NSA, previously used by Clinton foundation for internal audit, owned by Peter Thiel… mildly interesting don’t you think.

    palantir – uses include detecting money laundering and child trafficking.

    palantir/prism/resilient cities/strong cities ….

    • Colonial Viper 39.1

      And now Thiel has come out in support of Trump…? Stranger and stranger. Although I suspect that he is simply hedging business bets.

  31. Andre 40

    Remember who’s boss on Nov 8th. Chris Pine plays being your co-worker as if he was Congress.


  32. Manuka AOR 41

    I guess they didn’t meet Helen 🙂

    Mike Moore: When considering why men are so opposed to Clinton due to their sexism, Moore said, “It’s the muscle memory of 10,000 years that’s in our DNA where we’ve run the show forever.”

    “Next Tuesday possibly, hopefully, a woman is going to lead the most powerful country on earth,” Moore says. “In other words, the 10,000 year reign is over.”

    • Colonial Viper 41.1

      How about Margaret Thatcher?

      How about Queen Elizabeth (the first).

      Although I agree that Hillary Clinton shouldn’t be opposed on her gender. But on her warmongering, disdain for national security protocol and corrupt self enrichment.

      • Jim Nald 41.1.1

        Moore would be better off confining his comments to 230 years of the history of the USA.

        The Celestial Empire, at one of its peak flourishing periods, had a female emperor about 1300 years ago.

        [Hi Anne (below), Although I despair that one of the world’s current democratic representative system has yielded the current two candidates, I hope your wish will be fulfilled!]

        • Anne

          3 November 2016 at 9:13 am
          Thanks Jim Nald. 😉

          Certainly not ideal but the alternative… God help us.

    • Anne 41.2

      “Next Tuesday possibly, hopefully, a woman is going to lead the most powerful country on earth,” Moore says. “In other words, the 10,000 year reign is over.”

      It would be a day we will never forget. Let it be, let it be!

  33. Morrissey 42

    Chicago’s thuggish mayor Rahm Emanuel is
    bad enough—but his terrorist father was even worse


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