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US Election Discussion Post 4/11/16

Written By: - Date published: 5:55 am, November 4th, 2016 - 193 comments
Categories: us politics, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags: , ,

In order to free up Open Mike and Daily Review for other conversations we are asking that all discussion, posting of links etc on the US election go in this daily dedicated thread rather than OM or DR.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

There will continue to be author-written posts on the US election as well, usual rules apply there too.

 

 

193 comments on “US Election Discussion Post 4/11/16”

  1. AsleepWhileWalking 1

    Yesterday there was talk of Clinton alongside her husband being implicated in an underage sex scandal (evidence apparently discovered on the very sticky laptop of Abedin/Weiner).

    If this is true then this could see an end to this car crash of an election with Biden installed as an interim measure.

    • ianmac 1.1

      Is Doug Hagmann a biased reporter? Canadian?
      If what this clip says is true, the Election must explode. Unless the powers behind the thrones decide that the reputation of the USA is more important than justice, so all info will be suppressed.
      I can’t get a handle on the credibility of this lot. Anyone?

  2. AsleepWhileWalking 2

    Kathy Shelton and her lawyer speak of chilling Clinton abuse after her rape and near death at age 12. Super ugh.

    At one point there is discussion of Clinton inserting herself into the chain of evidence, and the son of a judge signing off on a court order, and of course that old Clinton standby…evidence that has been lost.

    • Pasupial 2.1

      Asleep,
      Do you not believe that the accused has a right to legal representation in a rape case?

      Hillary didn’t “free” the defendant in the case. Instead, the prosecuting attorney agreed to a plea deal involving a lesser charge that carried a five-year sentence, of which the judge suspended four years and allowed two months credit of time already served towards the remaining year:

      Additionally, according to Newsday it was the complainant and her mother who pushed the state to make a quick plea deal rather than have the former go through the ordeal of a court trial, with the mother actively interfering in the investigation to bring about that result…

      Newsday closed their 2008 article on this case by reporting that the (unnamed) victim had experienced subsequent legal problems but bore Hillary Clinton “no ill will”:

      http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-freed-child-rapist-laughed-about-it/

      • TheExtremist 2.1.1

        Yeah, this “Clinton let a rapist walk free” bullshit is well and truly been litigated into extinction. Headline should be “lawyer does their job”.

  3. Andre 3

    How the bullshit and smear factory goes into overdrive.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/lotta-bs-in-that-clinton-fdn-fbi-story

    • yep the smears are all they have and they are smearing at toxic levels – typical right wing tactics – overwhelm with bullshit and wait for something to stick – if any traction double down on that one and smear even more – repeat until objective achieved – 101 dirty politics and very hard to counter especially when the supporters of trump are unhinged and use infowars, alex, fox, rt and other propaganda outlets to supposedly show evidence. Thus the machine feeds itself and is self referencing – basically incestuous, very dishonest and creepy too.

      and we see this here with our little minitrumps. frankly they are as idiotic as their boss and some of them even worse. The pathetic fools have already gone zombie – there is no hope for them, just mercy if anyone can be bothered.

  4. Morrissey 6

    The gruesome spectacle of Donald Trump’s ridiculous wife should
    not fill us with despair; America WILL get over this nightmare, eventually.

    Written in temporary dejection, Friday 4 November 2016

    Right now I’m listening to Melania Trump saying something really stupid on television. It’s tempting to be contemptuous of any nation that has enabled someone like her and her moronic husband to effectively hold it in thrall. This is a really dark time in the United States: whichever toxic candidate wins on Tuesday, it’s going to be very bad news for people not only in the U.S., but in many other countries.

    But let’s not imagine that these political numbskulls are the alpha and omega of American life: they’re not. There are still decent and thoughtful people in every area of American life. Here are a few brilliant and thoughtful women, the polar opposites of the likes of Melania Trump….

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/beyonc%C3%A9-and-the-dixie-chicks-brought-the-house-down-at-the-cmas_us_581a4350e4b01a82df646927

    • Colonial Viper 6.1

      You’re abusing Donald Trump’s supermodel wife for saying stupid things and for being ridiculous? Seriously WTF is wrong with you? Melania Trump is brand new to politics and is certainly not going to compare in the political speech/policy knowledge stakes to Michelle Obama, sure. But that’s another issue completely to what you have attacked her on.

      • dukeofurl 6.1.1

        She wouldnt open her mouth unless its to say something shes been prepped with by Trumps campaign.
        Finally they have woken up and stopped Trump talking ‘about women’ and made it Melanias job. Still there is that picture of her on the fake fur in Trumps plane.

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1

          She wouldnt open her mouth unless its to say something shes been prepped with by Trumps campaign.

          Geeezus, what a prick you are. So what. Hillary also wouldn’t open her mouth on stage like Melania unless it is to say something that shes been prepped with by her own campaign.

          And maybe if Hillary Clinton could get Bill to do the same, he wouldn’t end up saying shit like Obamacare is crazy.

      • North 6.1.2

        C’mon, let up the seething for a minute CV……in ya’ heart of hearts……ya’ know it……nothing about her personally. Caricatures then characterises the whole Trump circus. Don’t know why ya’ chucked in “supermodel” there…..she did bloody well……I thought.

    • xanthe 6.2

      BULLSHIT ! Unlike you I have actually watched melania trump’s speach
      She was compelling, organised and with a positive message of hope. I would vote for her on the basis of that speach.

      she is a very impressive, cool, charismatic, woman

      And she did not attack the other candidate or swerve on iota from a positive message

      The speach was a slamdunk

      Expect a jump in the polls from this.

  5. Colonial Viper 7

    McFlock – Julian Assange has finally confirmed, as expected by people in the know, that the Podesta/Clinton emails are not from a Russian source.

    • Phil 7.1

      In other news: Turkeys deny being delicious at thanksgiving, water insists it it not a cause of drownings.

      • Andre 7.1.1

        Unfortunately for your point, the turkeys actually have a good argument. I’ve had to force myself the chew through a lot of awful late November turkey meals.

        • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.1

          Yes, I much prefer a nice, free range organic chicken to a turkey

        • Phil 7.1.1.2

          I’ve had to force myself the chew through a lot of awful late November turkey meals

          Then you’re doing it wrong 🙂

          The secret is to rest the turkey under foil for at least an hour after removing from the oven. It moistens up really nicely.

    • rubbish liar lies about liar, now onto the weather…

      • Colonial Viper 7.2.1

        That was an eye bleedingly quick descent into personal abuse, marty mars.

      • xanthe 7.2.2

        marty If ever there was a candidate for moderation that comment has to be at the top of the list

        • weka 7.2.2.1

          People call each other liars on the standard fairly often /shrug

        • te reo putake 7.2.2.2

          Not really a moderation issue. Trolling is intended to generate heated responses, so it shouldn’t be a surprise when commentators occasionally get fed up and let fly.

          • xanthe 7.2.2.2.1

            obviously its your call not mine ..

            I would personally step on that smartly to encourage reasoned dialogue and maximise participation.

            I would not by preference post this here as for very good reason its bad form to “call out” moderators in open post, however the email address i was given to raise such matters just exposed me to a rather nasty form letter response.

            If there is a venue not in-post for such matters I would use it 🙂

          • Grim 7.2.2.2.2

            yet TRP banned me for a week for asking if a person with conditional morals could be trusted, interesting.

            ref: Open Mike 14_10_2016

            [TRP’s moderation is erratic at best and causes problems on site, but it’s still not ok to tell lies about his moderation. You were banned for ignoring a previous moderation request and for implying that an author was lying. Next time you want to relitigate a moderation put up a link so people can test your assertions. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14102016/#comment-1244832 – weka]

            • McFlock 7.2.2.2.2.1

              That’s not what you were banned for. Especially on that day.

              • Grim

                rhinocrates
                “Can’t remember who said it, but here it goes… Never wrestle with a pig: you assume undignified positions, you get covered with mud and in the end you’re left with the suspicion that the pig enjoyed it.
                Reply

                Sabine …
                14 October 2016 at 2:51 pm

                pigs….hmmm
                you kill a pig
                you roast it.
                crackle……so much crackle and gravy and biscuits.

                now i want to go buy me some pig.”

                If I was to use TRP’s emotional reasoning I could very well take that as a personal threat, but I only asked if having conditional morals makes it hard for others to trust you. I think if you read through the thread and timeline you will see which people where openly abusive.


                [Hi, grim. I’ve just caught up with this comment. Can you explain what you mean by “TRP’s emotional reasoning …” Bear in mind you’ve just lied about why you were recently banned, so please make the explanation really, really convincing so I’m not tempted to kick you to touch again. TRP]

                • McFlock

                  I did read it.

                  You insisted people answer a false dichotomy, told people what to write, took a self-described “aggressive stance”, insinuated people were lying without providing your evidence or supporting argument, got warned by a moderator twice, and all on the day Helen Kelly died. Tone deaf, much?

                  And now, after all those pork comments, I’m hungry. Luckily there’s a roast takeaway place a block from my office…

      • Morrissey 7.2.3

        Assange is a “rubbish liar”?!?!?!? The reason he’s been hounded and denounced by the destroyers of Iraq and Afghanistan for the last six years is because he is a truth-teller.

    • McFlock 7.3

      So now assange is commenting about the identities of wikileaks sources? Sort of defeats the purpose of his site, no? Especially if he’s telling the truth.

      So, please clarify: your assertion is that it’s possible/likely that a small group within the FBI or NSA who have access to NSA intercept records are now releasing intercepted communications and compromising their own FBI investigations in order to affect the outcome of a US presidential election? And you think the problem to be discussed is a few classified emails on a private server?!

      &what phil said.

      • “&what phil said.”

        I agree – rest the Turkey before chewing.

      • Morrissey 7.3.2

        Especially if he’s telling the truth.

        Assange always tells the truth. That’s why he is being persecuted by the United States and its vassals, and obediently denounced by people like you.

        • McFlock 7.3.2.1

          Always?
          Who the fuck do you think he is: Jesus?

          • weka 7.3.2.1.1

            St Juilian I think.

            • Morrissey 7.3.2.1.1.1

              No, weka, not a saint. He can’t perform miracles. He’s just an extremely courageous and principled speaker of truth. Just like Ralph Nader, Daniel Ellsberg, Noam Chomsky, Chelsea Manning, Glenn Greenwald, Nicky Hager and many others. All of them, by the way, have incurred the wrath—and in Manning’s case, the terrible vengeance—of the state.

              • weka

                They’re all just men Morrissey (and a woman). The saint reference was about the adulation not that Assange is literally seen as a saint. Look at what you said “Assange always tells the truth.” Leaving aside the fact that very few people always tell the truth, who would you or anyone even know that about him?

              • McFlock

                but he’s never told a single lie… that’s pretty saint-like

          • Morrissey 7.3.2.1.2

            Well, he’s about as popular with Washington and Westminster as Jesus was with Rome. Although Assange is far, far more threatening to liars and murderers than Jesus ever was.

            Which, of course, explains the campaign of lies and black propaganda.

  6. Andre 8

    Unwelcome endorsements: nice try but not really the recommended way to deal with one.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/11/03/eric-trump-david-duke-deserves-a-bullet.html?via=desktop&source=copyurl

  7. Colonial Viper 9

    Craig Murray, former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan (who was removed from that post for speaking out against the use of torture) and former Rector of the University of Dundee, states very clearly to Sputnik Russian News that the source of the Podesta/Clinton wikileaks emails are not from Russia, they are from inner circles of Washington DC:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-02/former-british-ambassador-claims-source-podesta-leaks-comes-within-washington

    He writes more about the subject here on his personal blog:

    I was in Washington last month to chair the presentation of the Sam Adams Award to heroic former ex-CIA agent and whistleblower John Kiriakou. There were on the platform with me a dozen or so former very senior and distinguished officers of the CIA, NSA, FBI and US Army. All now identify with the whistleblower community. There were speeches of tremendous power and insight about state abuse, from those who really know. But as usual, not one mainstream media outlet turned up to report an award whose previous winners and still active participants include Julian Assange, Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning.

    Similarly my statement of definite knowledge that Russia is not behind the Clinton leaks has caused enormous interest in the internet. One article alone about my visit to Assange has 174,000 Facebook likes. Across all internet media we calculate over 30 million people have read my information that Russia was not responsible for these leaks. There is no doubt whatsoever that I have direct access to the correct information.

    Yet not one single mainstream media journalist has attempted to contact me.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/10/blanket-corporate-media-corruption/

    • Good link.

      “Bill Binney is like myself a former recipient of the Sam Adams Award – the World’s foremost whistleblowing award. Bill was the senior NSA Director who actually oversaw the design of their current mass surveillance software, and Bill has been telling anybody who will listen exactly what I have been telling – that this material was not hacked from Russia. Bill believes – and nobody has better contacts or understanding of capability than Bill – that the material was leaked from within the US intelligence services.”

      Depressing that so many of our comrades on the left who valued whistleblowing when it did spoke truth to Bush in the USA or Key in NZ suddenly falter when it raises equal questions about and speaks truth to the Clinton machine.

    • dukeofurl 9.2

      Yawn… from zerocredibility.

      • Colonial Viper 9.2.1

        It’s a fucking laugh, seeing lefties enforce the boundaries of acceptable political conversation as it is defined by the corporate mainstream media. No wonder the left is fucked.

        • weka 9.2.1.1

          says the man who watches Fox for breaking news.

          • Colonial Viper 9.2.1.1.1

            There’s a simple reason for that weka.

            It’s because almost every other mainstream media channel has studiously avoided mentioning that the FBI never actually destroyed Clinton’s aides’ laptops, that the FBI is currently “exploiting” information from those laptops, and that the immunity deals that those aides got from the FBI are conditional on the basis that those aides have not lied or hidden anything from the FBI.

            • McFlock 9.2.1.1.1.1

              or, as you used to describe it, “Fucking “You Decide” Fox News meme, how lameass.”

              • Colonial Viper

                I changed my mind.

                On some issues, like covering the content of the wikileaks Podesta emails, the politics and processes around FBI vs DOJ, and also progress on the investigation into the Clinton Foundation by four separate FBI field offices (Southern California, Arkansas, NYC and DC), FOX is doing at least as good a job as any of the major networks.

        • North 9.2.1.2

          It’s a fukn laugh seeing the self crowned king of TS the impeccable leftie CV in undying love with Trump. It’s Prebblesque indeed !

    • Siobhan 9.3

      The UK is talking War with Russia. America will have to be in the loop given their history on these things. Neither country are interested in any narrative other than “The Russians Did It”. How else are they going to talk their citizens into sending their children to war.

      “UK Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has just said something so irresponsible, he’s literally begging for WWIII. Speaking at a hearing of the Commons Defence Committee, he said the UK would be ready for war with Russia in two or three years.”

      http://www.thecanary.co/2016/11/03/uk-defence-secretary-just-said-something-reckless-hes-literally-inviting-wwiii/

      • dukeofurl 9.3.1

        Ah the old Make it up and see how fools fall for it trick!

        “Pressed if the UK would be ready for war with Russia in 2018, or 2019, Fallon replied, “Yes, we would be ready to increase the tempo in that kind of situation, which I don’t immediately foresee.”
        So it seems he thinks its irresponsible for those talking up war soon( but I think he could do more to say ‘its out of the question’)

        https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/11/03/fall-n03.html

        • Siobhan 9.3.1.1

          Well yes….certainly ‘immediately foresee’ is a phrase somewhat lacking in reassurance. And It bears absolutely no relation to the expression ‘out of the question’. Especially when followed up with this..
          “Fallon replied, “I don’t agree that war with Russia is likely next year. I think that is too extreme.”.
          He added, “And, of course, we will not be doing this on our own. We will be doing this as an active member of Nato, and presumably in some kind of Nato scenario.”
          So. okay, we’re clear for next year…and what does he mean with ‘we will not be doing this on our own”‘? Doing the ‘Not preparing for War’ ??? Putting troops in Estonia next year and putting troops in Poland AND deploying the RAF to Romania??

          It’s like playing War Games next to the Korean Demilitarized Zone..the ultimate wind up.

          And if there’s not a War the Daily Mail will be mightily pissed…..

          • Colonial Viper 9.3.1.1.1

            It’s like playing War Games next to the Korean Demilitarized Zone..the ultimate wind up.

            Not having NATO in the Baltic States and countries like Romania and Hungary was a kind of demilitarised (or at least, neutral) zone that Russia quite liked.

            And now, the west has actually moved military forces into that zone closer and closer to Russia, under the guise of “defence.”

  8. Andre 10

    Krugman’s views on the climate implications of the election.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/paul-krugman-climate-change_us_581b8687e4b0e80b02c889c1

    Yeah, yeah, I know he’s an economist not a climate scientist. But that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s wrong.

  9. Manuka AOR 11

    Trump’s internet trolls – fully funded

    http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/23/13025422/palmer-luckey-oculus-founder-funding-donald-trump-trolls

    (Genuine posters, take care…)

  10. Manuka AOR 13

    “Dangerous Myths about Trump that some progressives cling to” – Jeff Cohen and Norman Solomon:
    http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/11/03/dangerous-myths-about-trump-some-progressives-cling

  11. Manuka AOR 14

    “The wife of America’s biggest cyberbully just told America to stop cyberbullying”

    The internet reacts here: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/the-wife-of-americas-biggest-cyberbully-just-told-america-to-stop-cyberbullying-and-the-internet-is-pounding-her/

  12. Andre 15

    “Listening woman face”. A necessary tool for every female politician.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/03/politics/navarro-listening-woman-face/index.html

    • dukeofurl 15.1

      “”If Donald Trump was a woman, the first people that would be saying to him, ‘girlfriend, you’re crazy,’ would be women.
      I don’t think we would let her out there if Donald Trump was a woman,”
      Ana Navarro

      So true.

      • Manuka AOR 15.1.1

        Bouffant dyed red or blonde hairdo, lashings of makeup, manicured little stabby hands, constant histrionics – President Donnabella indeed.

          • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.1.1

            You bullying guys/girls are just fucking unbelievable.

            • Manuka AOR 15.1.1.1.1.1

              CV, if you believe that Mr Trump would have gotten to where he is now, – being one of two candidates for President of the US, if he had not been a man, then you are unbelievable (literally).

              • Colonial Viper

                You want me to game out a hypothetical scenario where Donald Trump was actually Donna Trump from birth? Not something I can really do.

            • Manuka AOR 15.1.1.1.1.2

              Similarly, if you think that Hillary would have gotten to where she is, also as one of two candidates for President of the US, if she had not paid taxes since the mid-90s, if she personally had a child sexual assault case against her, if she had boasted on tape of grabbing men by the genitals and of chasing an affair with a married man, if she had been involved in more than 3,500 law suits, if she had a history of failed and bankrupt businesses, if she had no history in politics (shall I go on?) …

              then you are beyond unbelievable, beyond delusional.

              • Colonial Viper

                I can only respond to a few of these points.

                1) If Trump’s tax returns were illegal, his many IRS audits would have picked it up. BTW don’t talk too early about Clinton’s tax status (and the tax status of the Clinton Foundation).

                2) In my view, HC actively covered for and enabled Bill’s predatory sexual behaviour for many, many years. And yet, she has risen to where she is today. Not in spite of it, but because of it.

                3) Every major entrepreneur has had big business successes and big business failures. That’s the private sector world that the socialist left wing don’t understand.

                Regardless of this noise I don’t understand why lefties taking the piss out of a gender changed/alternate gendered/cross dressing Donald Trump is something that you would want to do – simply because he is a political enemy?

                • Manuka AOR

                  If Hillary had lived Trump’s life, she would not be able to stand for president!

                  Because she is a woman.

                  As a woman, she has taken the ONLY path available to get to where she is.

                  • Manuka AOR

                    …and that Trump is able to run is obscene and incomprehensible, but that is another discussion.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Sorry, but being a woman is neither a shield nor a defence for the public office abusing corrupt national security risk Arkansas grifter that Hillary Clinton is.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Also please explain to me your taking the piss out of a transgendered/gender altered/cross dressing Donald Trump.

                    • Manuka AOR

                      Also please explain

                      No, CV. I’ve said it already, in several ways. Sorry you don’t get it.

                    • Manuka AOR

                      please explain to me your taking the piss out of a transgendered/gender altered/cross dressing Donald Trump.

                      What, exactly, was altered or ‘cross-dressed’?
                      I wrote: Bouffant dyed red or blonde hairdo, lashings of makeup, manicured little stabby hands, constant histrionics – President Donnabella indeed.

                      This is my description of Trump as he has presented during these last weeks. At first he had bright orange-ish hair, quite bouffy, then it became blondish. At times his face is an orange colour, at other times various shades of white — He is wearing some kind of makeup. His manicured, stabby little hands are his trademark. Constant histrionics is what he does.

                      His name, and the point of what was being said, was in reply to the comment, “If Donald Trump was a woman”.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Well I suppose that’s all OK then. We’ll bully both Trump and his wife on their looks and bodies and anything else that we can come up with.

                      Then we can develop a few satisfactory intellectualisations for why its quite acceptable to do so. After all Trump represents much that is blatantly ugly, cruel and irrational about the United States and such a bully deserves the same back.

                    • McFlock

                      Also please explain to me your taking the piss out of a transgendered/gender altered/cross dressing Donald Trump.

                      nobody did.

                      In the parallel universe where Trump is a woman, CV has a goatee and obsesses over identity politics relating to those who are disadvantaged by existing socioeconomic power structures. And Spock is also goateed and incredibly passionate…

            • North 15.1.1.1.1.3

              And you’tre sitting there feeling such shit (that you deserve anyway) but Jesus you’re talking about Mexicans made second and third class. Shit of the Earth. Billionaire thinks that’s cool. Even gonna send ‘them Mexicans’ the bloody bill. What a fuck !

  13. joe90 16

    The true business as usual candidate.
    /

    Donald Trump is signaling that he wants to appoint his campaign finance chairman, Steven Mnuchin, as Treasury secretary, according to a person close to the campaign.

    Trump’s preference for the Goldman Sachs alumnus is the latest evidence that the GOP presidential nominee would be inclined to hire officials with experience in the business world should he win next week’s election, despite the anti-establishment tone that has dominated the campaign.

    […]

    “Word that Trump would go with Steven Mnuchin as Treasury secretary suggests that in choosing between his populist political persona and his life story as a rich kid turned businessman, a President Trump would be little different than, say, a President Romney,” said Jeff Hauser, director of the Revolving Door Project.

    “It’s hard to see Mnuchin cracking down on Wall Street,” said Hauser, whose nonprofit group scrutinizes executive-branch appointments. “Indeed, one imagines Mnuchin’s banking agenda would be to rehabilitate Trump’s reputation with Wall Street.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/steven-mnuchin-treasury-donald-trump-230716

    • Manuka AOR 16.1

      Business as usual indeed.
      And, I wonder if the Repubs are actually looking to President Mike Pence. Trump is going to be so tied up in multiple litigation suits (the 13 yr old girl case is now a jury one) — that if elected, he may not be able to take office.

      Many Repubs resiled from Trump when the pro-sexual assault tapes came out. They were repulsed by it all. Now, they are back behind him, even if some don’t even say his name while ostensibly endorsing him. Is this because they know he won’t be able to take office, and their main man Pence can step in when the time is right?

      • Colonial Viper 16.1.1

        And, I wonder if the Repubs are actually looking to President Mike Pence. Trump is going to be so tied up in multiple litigation suits (the 13 yr old girl case is now a jury one) — that if elected, he may not be able to take office.

        Then you better check out the parallel and separate FBI investigations into Hillary Clinton’s private email server, and her ‘top rated’ charity, the Clinton Foundation. Both investigations involve federal crimes and each investigation is over a year old now, and continuing.

        Having said that, a sitting President is immune from criminal prosecution during their term of office.

        • Manuka AOR 16.1.1.1

          The first two court cases (at least) are before any inauguration. He is not yet a president.

          And, false equivalence again.

          • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.1.1

            The first two court cases (at least) are before any inauguration. He is not yet a president.

            If Trump (or Clinton) were ever convicted of a serious crime before Inauguration, they could simply pardon themselves.

            And, false equivalence again.

            I never said the two situations were equivalent so don’t imply that I did. But in my view they are comparable, politically.

            • Manuka AOR 16.1.1.1.1.1

              If Trump is in jail for child sexual assault then he won’t be able to make the inauguration.

              Btw, the 2000 US election.. was only finalised in January 2001. Trump has two court cases before January 2017

              • Colonial Viper

                If Trump is in jail for child sexual assault then he won’t be able to make the inauguration.

                I dare say that we will all greatly regret putting President Pence in charge of the USA.

                edit and even worse for President Tim Kaine. Mark my words on that.

  14. xanthe 17

    OK setting aside clinton vs trump for president

    who would be your preferred “first lady”?

    Melania Trump? …. or
    Bill Clinton?

    • dukeofurl 18.1

      Arent you getting ahead of yourself. The Podesta emails date from 2011 this is 2016. And there plenty of fakes out there

      • Pasupial 18.1.1

        Fakes and misrepresentations. The interesting thing is that you don’t even need conspiracy to achieve this, simple profit motive will do:

        Over the past year, the central Macedonian town of Veles (population 45,000) has experienced a digital gold rush as locals launched at least 140 US politics websites. These sites have American-sounding domain names such as WorldPoliticus.com, TrumpVision365.com, USConservativeToday.com, DonaldTrumpNews.co, and USADailyPolitics.com. They almost all publish aggressively pro-Trump content aimed at conservatives and Trump supporters in the US…

        “Yes, the info in the blogs is bad, false, and misleading but the rationale is that ‘if it gets the people to click on it and engage, then use it,’” said a university student in Veles who started a US politics site, and who agreed to speak on the condition that BuzzFeed News not use his name…. the most successful stories from these sites were nearly all false or misleading.

        For example, the most successful post BuzzFeed News found from a Macedonian site is based on a story from a fake news website. The headline on the story from ConservativeState.com was “Hillary Clinton In 2013: ‘I Would Like To See People Like Donald Trump Run For Office; They’re Honest And Can’t Be Bought.’” The post is a week old and has racked up an astounding 480,000 shares, reactions, and comments on Facebook. (To put that into perspective, the New York Times’ exclusive story that revealed Donald Trump declared a $916 million loss on his 1995 income tax returns generated a little more than 175,000 Facebook interactions in a month.)

        The viral Clinton story was sourced from TheRightists.com, a site that admits it publishes both real and fake content. According to emails released by WikiLeaks, Clinton said in a private speech to Goldman Sachs that she would like to see more successful business people enter politics. But she did not mention Donald Trump in any way. The quote used in the headline is false.

        https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/how-macedonia-became-a-global-hub-for-pro-trump-misinfo?utm_term=.psndEr1ZA#.bhPVweBgK

      • xanthe 18.1.2

        “And there plenty of fakes out there”
        really ? show me

  15. Pasupial 19

    That song at the top is a bit on the ironic side, as I’d have to say that neither candidate in this election would be on the song-character’s side:

    Come all you good workers
    Good news to you I’ll tell
    Of how the good old union
    Has come in here to dwell

    My daddy was a miner
    He’s now in the air and sun
    He’ll be with you fellow workers
    Until the battle’s won

    They say in Harlan County
    There are no neutrals there
    You’ll either be a union man
    Or a thug for J. H. Blaire

    Oh workers can you stand it?
    Oh tell me how you can
    Will you be a lousy scab
    Or will you be a man?

    Don’t scab for the bosses
    Don’t listen to their lies
    Poor folks ain’t got a chance
    Unless they organize

    Which side are you on boys?
    Which side are you on?

    Personally, I prefer Merchant’s earlier more electric music with; 10,000 Maniacs. Her accent was even harder to decipher in those days though (this footage is over 30 years old now!):

  16. adam 20

    F*&ckface Von Clownstick. I miss Jon Stewart on TV just at the moment.

    https://www.facebook.com/ffacevonclownstick/

  17. joe90 21

    Who woulda thunk it.
    /

    The FBI and U.S. intelligence agencies are examining faked documents aimed at discrediting the Hillary Clinton campaign as part of a broader investigation into what U.S. officials believe has been an attempt by Russia to disrupt the presidential election, people with knowledge of the matter said.

    U.S. Senator Tom Carper, a Democrat on the Senate Homeland Security Committee, has referred one of the documents to the FBI for investigation on the grounds that his name and stationery were forged to appear authentic, some of the sources who had knowledge of that discussion said.

    In the letter identified as fake, Carper is quoted as writing to Clinton, “We will not let you lose this election,” a person who saw the document told Reuters.

    […]

    U.S. intelligence officials have warned privately that a campaign they believe is backed by the Russian government to undermine the credibility of the U.S. presidential election could move beyond the hacking of Democratic Party email systems. That could include posting fictional evidence of voter fraud or other disinformation in the run-up to voting on Nov. 8, U.S. officials have said.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-documents-idUSKBN12Y2WY?

    • Colonial Viper 21.1

      Putin again? Jeeeez the west is getting paranoid.

      By the way, didn’t Clinton criticise Trump for saying that the election was rigged?

      So is it rigged by the Russians, or not? Or is it only when Trump says its rigged that it’s not.

      • North 21.1.1

        You’re sounding like a child now CV. Please !

      • McFlock 21.1.2

        Nice slide.

        Rigging an election consists of voter fraud, ballot fraud, counting fraud, orchestrated disenfranchisement, that sort of thing. While voting machines are an issue in the US, as well as voter disenfranchisement lists, it’s unlikely to alter the outcome imo.

        But someone is obviously releasing documents (some real, some apparently fake), in order to mislead voters on the eve of the election. This isn’t “rigging”, because one doesn’t know what the outcome will be. But it is “dirty politics”, in the Hager sense of the word. And you’re a very active (if microscopically minor) participant in it.

  18. joe90 22

    Making America great.
    /

    NRLB orders Trump Las Vegas to stop refusing to bargain with Culinary union, cites "unlawful failure and refusal to recognize and bargain." pic.twitter.com/3SIWqPh8Qe— Jon Ralston (@RalstonReports) November 3, 2016

    • Colonial Viper 22.1

      Once Trump ends the flow of low waged illegal workers into the USA, every American service worker will benefit.

        • McFlock 22.1.1.1

          he’ll hold back the tide of immigrants by raising his tiny little hands to the heavens…

      • weizguy 22.1.2

        Trolololol

      • dukeofurl 22.1.3

        Whatever the origin of the fast food workers and others all will benefit from the push for $15 hr wage.

        http://fightfor15.org/

        As for the Donald ?
        ‘The Fox Business Republican Debate kicked off Tuesday night with a question about raising the minimum wage, as protesters across the country call for the floor to be raised to $15-an-hour.’

        Trump “. “I hate to say it, but we have to leave it the way it is. People have to go out, they have to work really hard, and they have to get into that upper stratum.”

        Donald just says ‘work harder’ . As if they dont already

      • DeadSmurf 22.1.4

        Considering that Trump’s tax policy mainly serves the top 0.1% of income earners earning more than $3.7 million p.a which will reduce federal income by $9.5 trillion over 10 years and lead to massive cuts in social services. I cannot see how you would think Trump cares one iota for low income workers.

        http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/analysis-donald-trumps-tax-plan/full

  19. joe90 23

    Tim Robbins –

    Dear fellow Bernie supporters and other irate independents,

    In a time of insanity, I’m voting for Hillary.

    Why?

    Aside from the despicable racism and sexism of the reality show star?

    Aside from his tax evasion and lying and bankruptcies?

    Trump denies climate change.

    Hillary has said she will honor the Paris Accords and invest in alternative energy.

    Trump wants to be a “law and order” president in a time when crime is at all time lows.

    Hillary has promised to continue reforming the broken and racist criminal justice system.

    Trump has shown an alarming disrespect for women and teenage girls.

    Hillary promises to be a president in advocacy of women and children.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dear-fellow-bernie-supporters-im-voting-for-hillary-and-you-should-too_us_581b91a3e4b0e80b02c8977f?npa83xu8r8nzv9529

  20. Colonial Viper 24

    NYC homeless shelter requests up 85% since 2010. Highest since the Great Depression.

    Apparently, this is Obama’s “change you can believe in.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-03/nyc-homelessness-surges-highest-levels-great-depression

    As the Coalition for the Homeless points out, while the number of sheltered individuals in NYC is at it’s highest levels since the 1930s, there are 1,000s of “unsheltered” homeless that are also sleeping in public spaces each night making it impossible to tally exactly how many New Yorkers are actually homeless.

    • North 24.1

      That’s something that successive Administrations have or have not laid a foundation for. Which each successive Administration builds on or doesn’t build on…….maybe retards…….you don’t imagine that ‘Mr Best In The World At Every Fucking Thing!’…….would ever be any good at cleaning it up in the foreseeable future, surely?…….c’mon…….in ya’ heart of hearts.

      You know I can whip up a very good batch of scones will take you back to your politics of about……aawh……15 months ago. They’re brilliant ! I’m back to ’51 already…….and ya’ know what ? So far I ain’t turned dog, and I ain’t turned Mad Dog, and I ain’t turned Richard Prebble.

      Ya’ need ‘dem scones bro’.

      • Colonial Viper 24.1.1

        I wonder how many of those record NYC homeless are blacks who voted for President Obama in 2008 or 2012.

        Or forgotten veterans that the VA no longer bothers looking after.

        Change you can believe in.

        Ya’ need ‘dem scones bro’.

        ???

  21. joe90 25

    Trump makes David Frum seem reasonable.

    The lesson Trump has taught is not only that certain Republican dogmas have passed out of date, but that American democracy itself is much more vulnerable than anyone would have believed only 24 months ago. Incredibly, a country that—through wars and depression—so magnificently resisted the authoritarian temptations of the mid-20th century has half-yielded to a more farcical version of that same threat without any of the same excuse. The hungry and houseless Americans of the Great Depression sustained a constitutional republic. How shameful that the Americans of today—so vastly better off in so many ways, despite their undoubted problems—have done so much less well.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/dont-gamble-on-trump/506207/

  22. Andre 26

    Keep a large container of salt handy, but if true this makes Wikileaks look really nastily partisan.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/03/wikileaks-latest-find-is-a-conspiracy-theory-from-trump-s-subreddit.html

  23. Andre 27

    Interesting write-up on Alex Jones from someone who lived through Jones’ early days in Austin.

    http://www.salon.com/2016/11/03/the-dangerous-rise-of-alex-jones-how-austins-pet-conspiracy-kook-conquered-the-republican-party/

    • Colonial Viper 27.1

      A mainstream lefty site engaging in character assassination and personal attack of their political enemies, digging up dirt from decades back. Typical.

      How about focussing on the issues and the policies, eh Salon?

      Meanwhile, instead of discrediting the alternative media, where are the lefty attacks on the failings of the mainstream corporate media’s lite coverage of the warmongering, profiteering and national security failings of Hillary Clinton.

      • Andre 27.1.1

        Oooh, that seems to have touched a von Nervestick.

        Maybe, just maybe, responsible journalistic investigation leads to the following conclusions:

        Alex Jones really is a ranting kook who has nevertheless figured out how to monetise the fears and delusions of that portion of the population prone to conspiracy theories and a particular mistrust of authority:

        and that while the Clintons are particularly DGAF about appearances and careless about some minor details, their reputation for nefarious doings (created mostly by ranting kooks) vastly exceeds their actual failings (the one rape allegation against Bill from 4 decades ago possibly excepted).

    • Manuka AOR 27.2

      “The dangerous rise of Alex Jones: How Austin’s pet conspiracy kook conquered the Republican Party”

      “Alex Jones earned his spot in Donald Trump’s basket of deplorables by being the king of the conspiracy theorists”

      From Andre’s link:
      The convention was supposed to be about the presumptive nominee, Donald Trump. But as a journalist on the ground, I couldn’t help but notice that a T-shirt reading “Hillary For Prison 2016″ was everywhere. On the back was the unmistakable logo for Infowars, Jones’s multimedia company that pumps out an endless stream of videos, articles and radio shows geared toward spreading every political conspiracy theory you can imagine, from Hillary Clinton’s supposed brain damage to President Barack Obama’s “faked” birth certificate.

      At times, it seemed like a quarter of the men at the convention were wearing this shirt, something that many other journalists noticed as well. Inside the convention, chants of “lock her up” kept on erupting, demanding that the Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton be arrested for crimes that exist only in the minds of conspiracy theorists like Jones and his audience.

      Jones and his conspiracy theories had conquered the Republican Party.

  24. xanthe 28

    What really pisses me off is that in the face of an obvious campaign to make melania into a “vapid bimbo” stereotype , the number of posters here who buy into it. Fer crying out loud cant you just go, watch her speech and make your own minds up. It was actually a master class in both content and delivery. Thats how you do it! …… And you all (well lots of you) are happy just to be told what to think! Sad.. so sad

    • Colonial Viper 28.1

      Yeah…lefties posting up links to nude modelling photos of Melania Trump because relevant. And so few seem to recognise the sheer hypocrisy of attacking a successful woman based on her body.

      • marty mars 28.1.1

        “And so few seem to recognise the sheer hypocrisy of attacking a successful woman based on her body.”

        yet you took obvious pleasure in doing that many many many multiple times to clinton around your assertions of her body. What a disgusting hypocrite you are.

        • Colonial Viper 28.1.1.1

          You whine about hypocrisy but let all the attacks on Melania Trump stand and choose to criticise me instead.

          That my friend, is hypocrisy.

          BTW the health of candidates is entirely relevant to their ability to do their job through a full term. Sorry if your partisan tribalism blinds you to that.

          • marty mars 28.1.1.1.1

            Yes i should have said that I don’t support and in fact oppose that kind of linking. I wish I had said something sooner. I am a hypocrite. I’ll certainly try to be truer to my values next time.

            Your attacks on clinton were cynical claptrap. Ablement is not a necessity of office as others have already told you. You have already been called on your tendency to use any group to push your trump agenda. Yet still you play coy when are you going to front up man?

            • One Two 28.1.1.1.1.1

              Questions about Clintons physical and mental health are valid just as they were when raised against John McCain

              Many of your comments towards CV have been hostile and abusive in content, which makes your request to “front up” a rather large deflection

              Hypocrisy would also be an appropriate term to use

              CV is correct in this instance

              • bullshit – how much reduced “physical health” is needed to disqualify?

              • weka

                “Questions about Clintons physical and mental health are valid just as they were when raised against John McCain”

                Nope. If there were issues with Clinton’s health then there would be actual discussion about real diagnosis. What CV has been doing is engaging in promoting ableist memes for political point scoring. That creates a culture where it’s ok to diagnose someone by looking at them and then apply one’s own judgements and prejudices on the basis of that. It’s no different to David Shearer’s painter on the roof story. It’s tool of bigotry being used for political gain and that is fucked.

                • Colonial Viper

                  And will you apologise weka, if President Clinton is unable to properly perform in her first term in the Oval Office, due to long standing pre-existing health conditions that i believe are already known to her staff and her Secret Service detail?

                  Because if she gets through her first Presidential term fit and strong and able I’ll be the first to say sorry and admit that I was an unreasonable “ableist” git over this issue.

                  • weka

                    Me apologise for what? If Clinton proves unfit to be president because of a pre-existing condition that was known to render her unfit, then I would expect her and her doctor to apologise and have to deal with the consequences.

                    But there is no way to know if she has such a condition or not. You already are an ableist git no matter what the state of her health, and like Shearer you are happy to throw disabled people under a bus for political gain.

                    Plus, I’m pretty sure you don’t even understand what the ableism is that you are doing. The existence of ableism doesn’t have anything to do with Clinton’s state of health. It’s to do with your value system that says it’s valid to diagnose someone by looking at them and then make value judgements about them on the basis of that. It’s just out and out prejudice.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You don’t know what I think weka, and you don’t know anything about my value system. But I do understand now that even if I am proven right about Clinton over the next 4 years, you won’t apologise.

                    • weka

                      I will ask again, CV, what should I apologise for?

                      I know your thoughts and values pretty well from having watched you express and demonstrate them extensively for a long time. If those aren’t your real values and thoughts, then you have a problem.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I remain amazed that you are allowed to make assumptions about my thoughts and my values, however when I make any assumptions about yours, you slam me on it.

                    • weka

                      I’ve been observing your behaviour and expressions of thought and then making comment on those. If I am wrong, you are free to correct me.

                      As far as I can see you haven’t done anything in this subthread other than say I should apologise if Clinton can’t do the job because of a pre-existing health condition, but you refuse to say what I should apologise for (I assume you’re not suggesting I apologise for Clinton if she has lied).

                      You don’t appear to have made any assumptions about me here, and I haven’t slammed you for it. I have slammed you for your politics.

                      If you are talking about other conversations the only person allowing or not allowing are you and me. If you don’t like my points or analyses, then refute them! Personally, I think you can’t do that because the things about your politics that I am criticising are so fucked up now, they’re indefensible. But happy for you to prove me wrong.

      • TheExtremist 28.1.2

        “nude modelling photos of Melania Trump because relevant. And so few seem to recognise the sheer hypocrisy of attacking a successful woman based on her body”

        You mean like Trump attacking Miss Universe contestants for being too fat while claiming he couldn’t be accused of sexual assault because they woman weren’t attractive enough while trying to discredit a woman by linking her sex tape?

        Is that the hypocrisy you meant?

    • weka 28.2

      “What really pisses me off is that in the face of an obvious campaign to make melania into a “vapid bimbo” stereotype , the number of posters here who buy into it.”

      I’m not seeing that much myself, not in this thread anyway. It’s probably there in a pretty low level way. CV was the first person to start talking about MT in that way.

      The problem here is that CV has less than zero credibility when it comes to identity politics, so him running round making accusations of prejudice about this now looks disingenuous in the extreme. I can guarantee that if he hadn’t been poisoning the well all this time, we would be having a range of discussions and analyses about things like MT’s abilities or otherwise and to what extent she is being subjected to sexism, but it’s almost impossible to do that while the bullshit is going on from CV. I’m not talking about his criticism of Clinton, I’m talking about his behaviour in this community.

      Trickier still because I know that you also are against identity politics, but there is a difference between that and what CV is doing.

      • Colonial Viper 28.2.1

        Commentators linking to nude modelling photos of Melania Trump when criticising Melania Trump and her campaign speech was an utterly bullshit demeaning move.

        It was done to bring up something completely irrelevant to Melania Trump’s political position as an aspiring First Lady.

        • weka 28.2.1.1

          Possibly, but it was dukeofurl and it’s hard to know what his intention was. He was replying to a comment about MT’s potential role as First Lady. Those photos are context. Myself, I’d like to see a conversation about why some people might thing they signify her inappropriateness, but it’s precisely because of the anti-identity politics of yourself and others, in addition to the napalming of the site that you have been doing, that stop those more involved conversations from happening. That you have been running rape apology lines and now appear to be saying wah, but sexism, is just yet another example of how completely vacuous your politics are. That’s why the better conversations can’t happen, and that’s what I was pointing to as a problem for the points xanthe was raising.

          Further, it’s certainly not ‘all these lefties’ that you keep going on about being unfair on MT about her gender or whatever (I notice you haven’t quite said what the problem is, tricky I know if you dismiss sexism and then want to use sexism in your political arguments).

  25. locus 30

    … this is why Hillary Clinton must be the next President of the USA, and why social democrats everywhere will cheer come 8 November
    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13318750/hillary-clinton-vision-government

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