Uyghur separatists behind call for Parliamentary motion on genocide

72 comments on “Uyghur separatists behind call for Parliamentary motion on genocide ”

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1. Byd0nz 1

   4 May 2021 at 4:40 pm

   Well that Morning report report sounded very 'wishy washy' to me, hardly a winning argument. Is it like the genocide that was visited on the American Red Indian, the Australian Aborigine, or indeed the New Zealand Maori, all of the above to yet be addressed to a satisfactory standard.
   It sounds like a total anti beat-up by the 5 eyes as we have seen our own PM cave in soon after big brother Australia paid a visit last week, she certainly pulled the carpet from under our FM
2. Stuart Munro 2

   4 May 2021 at 5:07 pm

   It may very well be true that the US is pushing the Uighur issue at present, but that is no guarantee that China's action is benign, scrupulous, or falls short of genocide. Chinese expansionism in Tibet did not cover them in glory, and likely their exploits in Uighur country are no better. Zenz may well be a bigot of some stripe, but folk who have come across Chinese racism could assure you that it too is in rude health and unrepentant.

   Traditionally, when issues devolve to he said she said among the great powers, we look to committed neutral NGOs like Amnesty, or Medecins Sans Frontiers. MSF concentrate on the kinds of disasters that require medical assistance and have relatively little to say about the Uighur issue. Islamic sites are more outspoken. Al Jazeera is pretty direct about it.

   Biden is expected to push for sanctions among the G7 – which might not be a bad thing if they can stimulate Xi to relent. More likely may be denials and counterclaims. Mind, if China were to investigate human rights abuses in terms of choking deaths of black detainees in the US, they might find good grounds and international support for sanctions against the US. I look forward to such a productive exchange of views.
3. ghostwhowalksnz 3

   4 May 2021 at 5:32 pm

   So a few muslims from Western China with 'terrorist army at Idlib'

   France had 1900 of its muslim citizens ( out of 3.5 mill) with Isis, along with similar high numbers in other western countries and even Australia and NZ.

   Time to round up all our muslims because a 'few' joined ISIS.

   This story is one of the most slanted Ive ever seen on Uighurs
   • Gabby 3.1

     4 May 2021 at 6:51 pm

     1900 out of 3.5 mill is eenyweeny.
4. bwaghorn 4

   4 May 2021 at 6:25 pm

   Is there any verifiable proof that china is actually killing the Uyghurs. ?
   • bill 4.1

     5 May 2021 at 9:40 am

     No.
   • Mr Nobody 4.2

     5 May 2021 at 10:34 am

     I would suggest taking a direcct look at the Newlines Report (Chinas-Breaches-of-the-GC3.pdf (newlinesinstitute.org).

     First off Adrian Zenz which this post as "far-right Christian fundamentalist who has said he is “led by God” against China’s government, deplores homosexuality and gender equality" is only one of 32 contributors to the report And while he may/may not have Christian beliefs (I don't know) he is also a "Senior Fellow in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation and an advisor to the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China" with a research focus on "on China's ethnic policy, public recruitment in Tibet and Xinjiang, Beijing's internment campaign in Xinjiang, and China's domestic security budgets."

     Other contributors to the report include:

     • An Internation Human rights lawyer specializing in atrocity prevention and political prisoner advocacy at the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights.
     • Uyghur human rights attorney based in Washington DC. A graduate of Harvard Law School and former anti-corruption attorney at a major U.S. law firm, Rayhan specializes in international human rights law.
     • An international law expert
     • One of Canada’s leading voices on global migration and refugee protection.
     • A past President of the London Court of International Arbitration.
     • The Executive Director of the Montreal Institute for Genocide and Human Rights Studies (MIGS) at Concordia University.
     • A Professor and former Dean of Harvard Law School
     • A Professor of International Conflict Resolution in the Faculty of Law and Director of the Human Rights Research and Education Centre at the University of Ottawa
     • A Professor in Human Rights at Stanford Law School
     • A international lawyer specializing in international litigation and arbitration, and cross-border criminal investigation
     • The Chair of the Board of Trustees of the Foundation for the International Prevention of Genocide and Mass Atrocities.

     A few things in particular stood out for me in the report:

     "Researchers have verified over 380 detention sites across XUAR that were either newly built or significantly expanded since 2017.102 Of these camps, 273 are highly fortified with high barbed-wire fencing, perimeter walls and watchtowers, and capacities of up to 30,000 internees, without accounting for overcrowding. Experts in prison design estimate the outer limit of the detention site in the small town of Dabancheng to be 130,000.104 Sixty-one detention sites have been newly constructed or expanded since July 2019, the majority of which are higher security, including at least 14 sites still under construction. One study, based on Government documents, estimates that XUAR has between 1,300 and 1,400 extrajudicial internment facilities, excluding prisons"

     These camps which Chinese officials frequently call "training camps" have a some interesting equipment:

     "procurement requests related to the camps,121 local governments obtained lists of weapons and prison supplies to maintain strict control over detainees.122 The lists included: electric cattle prods, electric batons, Tasers, spiked clubs known as “wolf’s teeth,” spears, stun guns, net guns, tear gas, pepper spray, police uniforms, and handcuffs"

     In regards to your specific question however the report also states this:

     Large numbers of Uyghur detainees have died or been killed under police or camp custody, and people who report such deaths can receive lengthy sentences. There is at least one confirmed report of mass deaths within an internment camp, and newly built crematoria in the region indicate that authorities may be concealing the overall number of deaths and torture within the camps. Elderly and prominent Uyghur religious figures, or detainees who succumb to the military-style routines, are particularly vulnerable to death or disappearance in detention, with a number of religious scholars dying shortly after taken into custody.

     Regardless of the politics, or risks associated with trade it appears that something very bad is happening to the Uyghur people in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (or XUAR) which we as a nation should be being VERY vocal about and which the Chinese authorities can address very easily by allowing independent investigators have unrestricted access into the area and to the residents to address these. Until this occurs however the global community must assume that the worse of happening and act accordingly.
     • Incognito 4.2.1

       5 May 2021 at 2:19 pm

       Until this occurs however the global community must assume that the worse of happening and act accordingly.

       In other words, we have to assume that all Hell has broken lose and that China is committing genocide!?

       Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence or do we conveniently ditch this principle because it doesn’t suit your narrative. It wouldn’t be the first time, WMDs anybody?
       • Mr Nobody 4.2.1.1

         5 May 2021 at 5:00 pm

         On one hand we have:

         1) First hand testimony from victims,

         2) We have satellite imagery showing concentration camps

         3) We have emails and documents from Chinese Governmental officials.

         4) We have statistical evidence indicating that genocidal type activity appears to be occurring.

         On the other hand we have:

         1) The alleged perpetrators saying "no were not, nothing to see here".

         I hope that the Chinese are being falsely accused of this crimes and the ability to make these allegations go away is completely within their own control by simply providing independent investigators unfettered access to the region to investigate.

         If the Chinese won't however the rest of the world has to assume the allegations are accurate and either choose to act or choose to do nothing.

         But let's not pretend in the years to come if the worse case scenario is proved true that we didn't know.
         • Incognito 4.2.1.1.1

           5 May 2021 at 5:27 pm

           I don’t think Aotearoa-New Zealand (if that’s what you mean by “we”?) is pretending anything nor are we sticking our collective head in the sand. Yet, I don’t accept that we have to assume anything and definitely not the scenario/situation painted by some who appear to have an agenda. The issue is to keep the pressure on to investigate through the appropriate channels instead of beating the ‘war drum’ and filling the ‘war chest’. This means politics and requires diplomacy and (inter)national persuasion. As Henry Kissinger (!) said: “politics is a continuation of war by other means”; it is (about) a struggle for power.

           So, no, I don’t accept all of your arguments and neither does this Government or Foreign Minister, it seems. The unanimous motion in Parliament today was a testament to clear determined thinking and acting by cooler and wiser heads, not a kneejerk reaction by a trigger-happy lynch mob; we need more of that!
5. DukeEll 5

   4 May 2021 at 6:40 pm

   I would like to see this too. It's disgraceful how minorities of race and religion can make claims against their rightful rulers and don't have to provide any evidence of atrocities.

   How they could coordinate the cover up of such an atrocity when they can’t even land a space ship just shows how far behind the US they are

   https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/may/04/out-of-control-chinese-rocket-tumbling-to-earth
6. barry 6

   4 May 2021 at 8:27 pm

   There is no doubt that human rights abuses are happening in Xinjiang. people are being locked up against their will for things that would not be crimes in NZ, and are not actually crimes in China.

   However it is far from genocide. Uyghur and Kazhak languages and culture that predate Islam are protected under Chinese law.

   The overt expressions of Islam and Islamism are fairly new to China in general and the Chinese government has not reacted well. As they have overreacted to other religious groups that don't accept the primacy of the communist party. It also is a factor that violent secessionism and Islam have become conflated both in the minds of the secessionists and the government. The Chinese government will clamp down hard on any talk of secession, which is a crime under Chinese law.

   The suppression of overt displays of Islam and Islamic people as a response to violent Jihad is not unique to China. The US under Trump banned immigration from a number of Islamic countries. France and other European countries have banned head coverings.

   It does seem that Uyghur secessionists are being used as a tool to rouse up countries against China. The biblical parable about motes in eyes comes to mind. It is important for NZ to stand up against human rights abuses anywhere, but most particularly in countries that we have most to do with. However we should be honest brokers and not let ourselves get sucked into supporting one group of bullies against another.
   • ghostwhowalksnz 6.1

     5 May 2021 at 8:41 am

     Good points . It seems that accepting totally the Leninist Party-State and One China is the only allowable expression on minority rights.
7. peter sim 7

   4 May 2021 at 8:53 pm

   China is never wrong and never makes mistakes. It has a very long history of this. OK there have been , inevitable ,setbacks from time to time.

   If you sup with the Devil , use a very long spoon.

   NZ business needs to consider that shareholder returns and managerial perks are not the be all and end all of everything..

   The covid consequences are far from finished, I mean generations and continents.

   OBTW there is global warming well under way. Ask our glaciers..

   China could not care less. It has always been an expansionist empire building country.

   Unfortunately so are a helluva lot of other countries.

   Sigh.

   Long spoons are essential.

   Capitalist greed v social values is an interesting war zone..

   We live in interesting times.

   NZ being held hostage by nz business interests shareholders directors executives tp placate china for profit (greed) is not on.
8. Castro 8

   5 May 2021 at 6:18 am

   I wonder what interest Mike Smith has in the Han Chinese regime that makes him a shill for their racist, ethno-nationalist dictatorship… partner, life or business or both? Business interests like Damien O'Connor? crickets chirping

   [I wonder what you’re going to do in your spare time now you have been banned for five (5) months for attacking an Author under his own Post with stupid accusations without a shred of evidence to back it up – Incognito]
   • Incognito 8.1

     5 May 2021 at 8:06 am

     See my Moderation note @ 6:18 am.
9. Jenny how to get there 9

   5 May 2021 at 6:36 am

   I don't know anything about the Uyghurs.

   Saying that, rounding up large numbers of Uyghurs into 'training camps' that the government of China has admitted to, does not sound good.,

   https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3101986/china-claims-vocational-training-given-nearly-13-million-people

   What I do know about, is the genocide committed in Syria by the Assad regime against its own citizens.

   A genocide denied by the very same people and groups who are defending China's treatment of the Uyghurs.

   https://www.genocideinsyria.org/
   • Incognito 9.1

     5 May 2021 at 7:57 am

     Despite your self-confessed ignorance, you seem to suggest that because the Assad regime is or has committed genocide, China is doing the same!? This is such small-minded thinking and a sound basis for accusing China of genocide. I can see a career for you ahead in politics.
     • Gosman 9.1.1

       5 May 2021 at 8:16 am

       The question is why can Parliament not debate whether a genocide is occurring in Xinjiang. Care to answer that?
     • Brigid 9.1.2

       5 May 2021 at 10:35 am

       Incognito there has been no genocide committed by the Assad government. If it were so, 70%+ of Syrians would not have voted for him as their president in 2014. This election was administered under UN supervision. The observers report is here

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnFQd4wBXnk&list=FLxnNx0VACX_z9BniCIRa_3A&index=66

       There are elections in Syria on the 26th May. There are two other candidates besides Bashar al Assad. Abdallah Saloum Abdallah, and Mahmoud Ahmed Marei. It will be interesting to see who Syrians vote as their President this time.
       • ghostwhowalksnz 9.1.2.1

         5 May 2021 at 11:07 am

         Plu-eeesh . Those are 2 or 3 'permitted' small political parties. Assad is a dictator like his father.

         Turkey, Jordan and Saudi and Sunni monarchies along with the US via CIA and the Timber Sycamore program were the prime money , weapons suppliers in the civil war.

         https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/world/middleeast/cia-syria-rebel-arm-train-trump.html
       • Incognito 9.1.2.2

         5 May 2021 at 2:24 pm

         I was pointing out her logical fallacy and her mental acrobatics to Jenny. Whether any of the points she’s trying to connect and construe equivalence are real or imaginary is a different matter altogether.
     • Sanctuary 9.1.3

       5 May 2021 at 2:41 pm

       Let's bully a good faith poster.

       Way to go champ.
       • Incognito 9.1.3.1

         5 May 2021 at 2:48 pm

         Care to address the validity and veracity of Jenny’s comment instead of popping veins inside your head?
10. Gosman 10

    5 May 2021 at 8:14 am

    Even if this was inspired by a separatist movement why is that such a bad thing? You could argue that the Irish independence movement pre 1921 was a separatist movement. Would you not support that Mike?
    • Incognito 10.1

      5 May 2021 at 8:17 am

      Only disingenuous ‘debaters’ set a trap such as that 🙁
      • Gosman 10.1.1

        5 May 2021 at 8:27 am

        Why is this disingenuine. The Chinese control of Xinjiang is basically the same as the British control of Ireland pre-1921. The British regarded Ireland as an integral part of the UK and groups seeking to change that arrangement were subject to oppressive actions just as the Chinese do in relation to Xinjiang. If you support the right of the Irish to leave the UK why would you oppose the same in relation to Xinjiang?
        • Incognito 10.1.1.1

          5 May 2021 at 8:41 am

          Your premises are off and so are your equivalences. The question is not whether the Author supports “the Irish independence movement pre 1921”; it is a variant of the ‘pig-fucker’ question (look it up, if you’re not familiar with the tricks of disingenuous trolls). You may want to re-read the OP before you get yourself in (more) trouble.
      • ghostwhowalksnz 10.1.2

        5 May 2021 at 8:36 am

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

        'During a Gish gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time'

        Its now the Gosman Gallop

        Before the Easter 2016 rebellion Irish nationalists openly paraded in uniform. This is Cork St Patricks Day 1916
        • Incognito 10.1.2.1

          5 May 2021 at 8:44 am

          Gossie is infamous here on TS. He will be put to pasture soon if he doesn’t rein himself in; he’s wasting my time under two OPs now 🙁
    • Subliminal 10.2

      5 May 2021 at 8:59 am

      I'm not sure why it is so hard for you to understand the impossibility of a good ending to a separatist state based on either religion or ethnicity. Think Israel if you need a comparison. A state for Uighur Muslims means placing criteria on full citizenship in the same way that Israel does and the result can only ever be separate development and apartheid. The public statements of the CCP are that they wish to raise all people out of poverty regardless of ethnicity or religion and they do have some form in achieving this. Few countries would be in favour of separtism based on religion.
      • Gosman 10.2.1

        5 May 2021 at 9:17 am

        Umm… a separatist state based on ethnicity and religion has been the basis of many nation states in existence today. Bangladesh is a prime example of this.
        • RedLogix 10.2.1.1

          5 May 2021 at 9:45 am

          And I'm curious to understand how 'Uyhgur separatist' bad, while 'Maori separatist' good.

          All this dividing people against each other on the basis of ethnicity, religion, gender or any other characteristic only ever ends very badly.
          • Gosman 10.2.1.1.1

            5 May 2021 at 9:59 am

            Can you identify an area of the country where Maori have the majority and that would be able to function as a stand alone State?
            • RedLogix 10.2.1.1.1.1

              5 May 2021 at 10:14 am

              Te Urewera and maybe East Cape generally. But then I'd imagine Ngai Tuhoe (and others) might have some objections to being overrun in such a fashion.

              But that's beside the point – I think we can all agree that learning to understand and respectfully integrate a diversity of cultures and social frameworks is a good thing – but then exploiting them for political purposes and splintering nations into ever increasing numbers of little bantustans is a reversion to tribalism and something most New Zealanders would resoundingly reject.

              I think we can take that idea off the table.
11. esoteric pineapples 11

    5 May 2021 at 9:08 am

    Good post Mike.

    The issue from a New Zealand point of view is not if and how much Uyghurs are being persecuted in China, but American manipulation of the situation for its own geo-political benefit. The Uyghur cause is being manipulated to encourage war mongering. It has reached the point where anyone who is concerned about the Uyghurs has become a pawn whether they like it or not. I would not support any US-led efforts on their behalf for this reason.
    • Incognito 11.1

      5 May 2021 at 9:25 am

      The Human Rights issue is an issue for New Zealand.
      • bill 11.1.1

        5 May 2021 at 10:19 am

        What are the Human Rights issues?

        If you're talking about the internment camp narrative, that's been blown out of the water by a number of sources.

        That said, the USA has a stellar record for targeting African Americans …and NZ isn't so flash on the Maori imprisonment front, aye?

        Illegal sanctions and/or blockades (Venezuala, Iran, Syria…) – might they be a cause for concern on the Human Rights front? If not, what about straight up coups being orchestrated from abroad (Ukraine, Bolivia….)?

        Maybe illegal bombing campaigns/war like Lybia, Syria….?

        I don;t suppose any of the above will be debated because "not China".
        • RedLogix 11.1.1.1

          5 May 2021 at 10:31 am

          Yes the Xinjiang Vocational Education and Training Centers are such wonderful places really. I'm surprised you have an internet connection from there?

          At the very least they represent an extreme attempt at coercive social engineering, so why doesn't it surprise me to see the hard left backing them boots and all.
          • Drowsy M. Kram 11.1.1.1.1

            5 May 2021 at 12:53 pm

            At the very least they represent an extreme attempt at coercive social engineering, so why doesn't it surprise me to see the hard left backing them boots and all.

            Doesn't surprise me to see you having a reflexive go at "the hard left".

            Against Polanyian orthodoxy: a reply to Hannes Lacher
            More than either perfection or unrealizability, however, Polanyi understood that the hallmark of the conservative attack on leftist “utopians” was the claim that they advocated “social engineering,” a fear-mongering term meant to evoke the terror of the French Revolution. In this, conservatives and reactionaries followed the standard script of the utopian trope, which always moves from accusing reformers of aspiring to an impossible ideal of perfection to then engaging in coercive social engineering. Polanyi’s original strategy was to turn the tables on the political economists to reveal that it was their self-regulating market ideal that required truly catastrophic schemes of social and political engineering. Precisely because it was a pure thought experiment so removed from empirical social life, to impose such a market would require brutal and sustained political engineering to rip out the fabric of human society and nature and impose the blueprint of a fully commodified social and natural world.

            Also doesn't surprise me that "capabilities for Uyghurs are limited as ethnicity comes out as one of the main factors determining inequalities." The CCP's methods for addressing ethnicity-based inequalities are pragmatic and, and some of the associated outcomes are deplorable. Whether these “reeducation camps” et al. succeed in delaying the next cycle of Chinese fracturing/uniting only time will tell.

            Fwiw, I suspect that some desire the break-up of China, à la the USSR, but given the global challenges facing civilisation maybe now is not the time.
        • Incognito 11.1.1.2

          5 May 2021 at 1:38 pm

          That this House is gravely concerned about the possible severe human rights abuses taking place against Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, and that it call on the Government to work with the United Nations, international partners, and to work with all relevant instruments of international law to bring these abuses to an end.

          https://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-NZ/OrderPaper_20210505/e1b6963ddcf2d02f54fbbad8a52cb3c800004d86
          • Ad 11.1.1.2.1

            5 May 2021 at 4:18 pm

            Great to see our Parliament unanimous on this statement.
            • Incognito 11.1.1.2.1.1

              5 May 2021 at 4:20 pm

              Yup, a win for all 120 MPs, I’d say.
          • Bill 11.1.1.2.2

            5 May 2021 at 8:04 pm

            Interesting… the call to work with the United Nations, implies the UN has a position on Xinjiang that aligns with those claiming forced labour, actual genocide, cultural genocide etc.

            But the UN holds no such position and the majority of countries within the UN have lauded China for its anti-terrorism/ poverty alleviation efforts in Xinjaing
            • Incognito 11.1.1.2.2.1

              5 May 2021 at 9:51 pm

              Why does it imply that? I don’t follow that at all but I’m quite tired, as I’ve been reading way too much today, again.
              • Drowsy M. Kram …

                5 May 2021 at 11:24 pm

                While the scale of the 'projects' occuring in Xinjiang will certainly accrue some human rights abuses, it's interesting to me that the statement begins:

                That this House is gravely concerned about the possible severe human rights abuses…

                and ends:

                to bring these [possible] abuses to an end.

                It's a very minor point; the initial "possible" might mollify the CCP somewhat, but either add a second 'possible', or have the courage of (y)our convictions and delete the first one, imho.
                • Incognito …

                  6 May 2021 at 7:34 am

                  The ‘offending’ word got dropped from the motion agreed.

                  https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansDeb_20210505_20210505_32
                  • Drowsy M. Kram …

                    6 May 2021 at 9:18 am

                    Thanks Incognito for the update.
                  • Bill …

                    6 May 2021 at 10:45 am

                    I look forward to a detailed and verifiable list of these human rights abuses. Obviously they are particularly egregious given that parliament passed such a motion. (I'm not suggesting an absence of human rights issues in China)

                    I'm assuming there are no similar motions pertaining to Israel, the US, Australia or the UK, though serious human rights abuses committed by those countries are easy to identify, document and verify.

                    The suggestion must then be (surely by the lack of other motions) that China is committing human rights abuses far in excess of those represented by… Guantanamo Bay; illegal sanctions and blockades affecting entire populations; illegal occupations of territories; illegal acts of war and military occupation; throwing journalists into black holes of maximum security prisons and 'never ending' legal processes; stolen generations of indigenous children; decidedly racist systems of incarceration…the list of serious human right's abuses pertaining to those aforementioned countries just goes on and on.

                    As I say, I look forward to the specifics as they pertain to Xinjiang. I mean, it's not that the NZ government would be so gutless or stupid as to allow itself to be swept up in any brutally cynical propaganda campaign being waged by the usual "regime change" suspects in Washington (the NED and the "buddy groups" they fund)…surely not.
12. Muttonbird 12

    5 May 2021 at 9:29 am

    Lost count of the number of time Seymour mentioned the British parliament debate on the same in his interview with Duplicity Allen yesterday.

    It's been decades since we followed Britain around like a lost puppy, and why on earth would we do so now, them with a bumbling oaf in office, and their dreadful Covid-19 response?
    • Gosman 12.1

      5 May 2021 at 9:31 am

      Do you mean their dreadful Covid-19 response that has led them to have the best vaccination rate in Europe which puts NZ to shame?
      • Muttonbird 12.1.1

        5 May 2021 at 9:52 am

        No. I mean this:

        Covid-19 deaths/million

        UK – 1871

        NZ – 5
        • Gosman 12.1.1.1

          5 May 2021 at 9:57 am

          The UK rates are comparable with the rest of Europe. They do not have the luxury of being an isolated island nation thousands of km's away from others that can only be reached via a long sea or plane journey.
          • Muttonbird 12.1.1.1.1

            5 May 2021 at 10:11 am

            No. They just couldn't lock down properly.

            Since they started following New Zealand's lead and made a decent effort, their appalling death toll has dropped significantly.
          • Brigid 12.1.1.1.2

            5 May 2021 at 10:49 am

            Vietnam had no such 'luxury' either but managed to control the virus such that their death rate is a mere 35 from a population of 96.5 million.
            • Stuart Munro 12.1.1.1.2.1

              5 May 2021 at 10:25 pm

              Vietnam also made a very creditable showing against the original SARS.
          • ghostwhowalksnz 12.1.1.1.3

            5 May 2021 at 10:54 am

            Sea journey ? Virtually all arrive by air , and NZ is closer by air to Wuhan than London is ( Sydney had regular direct non stops flights to Wuhan)

            The 1918 flu didnt have any problem travelling by sea to this part of the world.

            In Australia Victoria delayed high level lockdowns for some weeks after a hotel quarantine outbreak and 800 died ( the lockdown eventually was the only method to control it and the isolation was with rest of Australia)

            Greece was a good comparison who did a strict lockdown back in March 2020 and had a very low death rate. Didnt follow that quickly enough in second waves from Nov 2020 and the deaths were dramatically higher.

            'Isolated distant islands' is absolute nonsense
          • Incognito 12.1.1.1.4

            5 May 2021 at 1:49 pm

            Misleading statement, at best. The UK is 13th worst ranked country in Europe based on Deaths/1M population, out of 47 countries and that includes Gibraltar (#2) and San Marino (#5).

            https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
13. bill 13

    5 May 2021 at 10:07 am

    Nice post Mike. To add a couple of points…

    The accusations being leveled against China were predicted a few years back by at least two sources I know of (Colin Powel's ex chief of staff and a CIA whistle blower from the early 00s – available on youtube). The reasoning was the same in both instances – to monkey wrench China's beltway and road initiative.

    Meanwhile, on that beltway and road front, the NED is funding, arming and training really dodgy fucks in Myanmar and Thailand…

    Also, it is a small coterie of "western" nations that have condemned China, while the overwhelming majority of countries, including predominantly Muslim ones, have remarked positively on China's actions in Xinjiang…as has the world bank and others who have bothered to go see what's going on.

    There are plenty of Canadians, Americans, British people in China who have uploaded personal content from Xinjiang onto youtube…. Daniel Dumbrill's channel is one of the more comprehensive and includes lengthy and in-depth interviews with Rushan Abbas (leading light of the World Uyghur Congress) and a Uyghur activist by the name of Arslan Hidayat…

    It bothers me that, yet again, National Security State propaganda is manipulating people's better natures, such that they support moves to inflict injury on people they actually (even if remotely) care about.

    Finally. I wouldn't want to be in Jacinda Arderns shoes right now. It's one thing to piss off China – there are no immediate onerous consequences for that. But piss off the USA….?
    • ghostwhowalksnz 13.1

      5 May 2021 at 11:11 am

      "But piss off the USA…"

      Been there , done that , We got kicked out of ANZUS as a result.

      However NZ stance could be called 'bi-partisan'
      

      [image resized]
14. Ad 14

    5 May 2021 at 4:15 pm

    Our Parliament has today unanimously passed a resolution of condemnation of the treatment by the Chinese government of the Uighurs.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125034356/parliament-unanimously-declares-severe-human-rights-abuses-occurring-against-uyghur-in-china

    It's an important win for the Act Party who brought the motion for debate, but more importantly a collective political statement in support of human rights in China.
    • Gabby 14.1

      5 May 2021 at 4:47 pm

      The 'g' word's gone byebye though.
      • Ad 14.1.1

        5 May 2021 at 5:06 pm

        That's the price of full (and quite rare) Parliamentary unanimity.

        We're a small country but if more and more countries vote like this, we're all delivering a strong message for universal human rights.
    • Ike 14.2

      6 May 2021 at 4:05 am

      Perhaps the NZ Parliament should also pass a resolution apologising to North Korea for NZ's participation in the Korean War. More than 10% of the population was killed , their towns and homes were destroyed and the surviving people were reduced to eating grass.

      The USA has never accepted their loss and signed a peace agreement. Has NZ?

      They could also offer reparations to Viet Nam. Better still those who are taking a high moral tone, regarding China protecting itself from Uighur terrorism, could go to Viet Nam and help clear the land of the unexploded munitions that still blight the lives of the farmers there. Some of those unexploded shells may well have come from NZ guns.
15. Mr Nobody 15

    5 May 2021 at 5:04 pm

    The 'g' word's gone byebye

    And let's not forgot that is directly a result of the Ardern Government.
    • Ad 15.1

      5 May 2021 at 5:08 pm

      The sum total is a very strong statement that supports human rights that makes our alignment with similar nations very clear.

      I would be surprised if excluding that word gives us much cache with China's inevitable trade reprisals against us.
      • Gabby 15.1.1

        5 May 2021 at 5:19 pm

        Nonono, the Chinese will surely allow us to tour the province to see for ourselves the true state of affairs. They'll be eager to prove their humanitarianism.
        • Incognito 15.1.1.1

          5 May 2021 at 5:32 pm

          
        • Bill 15.1.1.2

          6 May 2021 at 11:14 am

          At present there are no travel restrictions imposed on anyone wanting to go to Xanjiang, and there are plenty of youtube videos by people sharing their experience/thoughts from visits to the region…

          Anyway. Here's a partial list of visits by organisations/delegations that took place just before Covid hit.

          ➤ 2018 December 28-30 – Diplomats from 12 countries (Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Afghanistan, Thailand, and Kuwait) visit Xinjiang. Pakistani diplomat Mumtaz Zahra Baloch reported that the delegation was given full and open access to three vocational centers and that she “did not find any instance of forced labor or cultural and religious repression” during her tours of the region.

          ➤ 2019 January 6 – Reuters visit Xinjiang.

          ➤ 2019 January 9-16 – A media group of 12 representatives from 6 countries (Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka) visit Xinjiang.

          ➤ 2019 January 22 – The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation announces its one-week-long visit to China. This is presumably the visit on which the later OIC resolution is based.

          ➤ 2019 January 25-31 – A media delegation from Egypt visits Xinjiang.

          ➤ 2019 January 29 – A European Union delegation visits Xinjiang.

          ➤ 2019 February 16-19 – Senior diplomats from the permanent missions of eight countries to the United Nations Office at Geneva visit Xinjiang.

          ➤ 2019 February 22-27 – A group of 11 journalists from Indonesia and Malaysia, as part of the ASEAN Elites China Tour 2019, visit Xinjiang.

          ➤ 2019 February 25-27 – Around 200 representatives of 50 political parties from nearly 30 countries visit Urumqi Xinjiang for a meeting aimed at showcasing China’s ethnic policy in Xinjiang.

          ➤ 2019 March 25 – The European Union rejects China’s offer of Xinjiang tour, but says it is open to one later. The EU would sit on its rain check for 539 days before once again demanding “independent” investigations into Xinjiang on September 14, 2020, despite the nearly 1,000 personnel from diplomatic, media, and academic circles who were invited to visit Xinjiang in 2019.

          ➤ 2019 March 27-29 – Milan Bacevic, Serbian Ambassador to China, and Selim Belortaja, Albanian Ambassador to China, visit Xinjiang.

          ➤ 2019 May 7 – NPR releases its report on its visit to a vocational center.

          ➤ 2019 May 10 – Val Thompson, founder and publisher of International Focus Magazine – Houston, writes on his experiences visiting Xinjiang. He states that in his group of media visitors were journalists from “Afghanistan, Egypt, Belgium, Bangladesh, Belarus, Jordan, Japan, Israel, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Iran, India, Malaysia, Morocco, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Russia, UAE, USA, Switzerland, and a Geneva Delegation.”

          ➤ 2019 June 15 – Under Secretary-General of the United Nations Counter-Terrorism Office Vladimir Voronkov visits Xinjiang and reaches a “broad consensus” with China on the issue of counter-terrorism.

          ➤ 2019 June 18 – BBC’s visit to a vocational center.

          • See also Sun, Feiyang, “Breaking down the BBC's visit to Hotan, Xinjiang.” Medium. July 18, 2019.

          ➤ 2019 June 18-21 – Diplomats from 14 countries (including Algeria, Burkina Faso, Congo (Democratic Republic of), Laos, Malaysia, Nigeria, Serbia, Somalia, Tajikistan, Togo) and a representative from the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation based in Geneva visit Xinjiang.

          ➤ 2019 February 28-March 2 – Diplomats from Myanmar, Algeria, Morocco, Vietnam, Hungary, Greece, Singapore and the mission of the League of Arab States visit Xinjiang.
16. Brigid 16

    6 May 2021 at 12:44 pm

    "You're a complete waste of space if you're just showing up to do nothing more than criticise from a position of luxury. Where you weren't tasked with addressing the real issues. And you never had to live under the conditions that needed addressing."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57qyMAySYc
17. pukahu road 17

    6 May 2021 at 12:45 pm

    Thankyou Mike for your important post.

    The Grayzone is always a must read and the team there are outstanding and brave journalists.

    Well before the public announcement in 2013 the BRI had triggered Washington.

    China will inevitably overtake the US as the top economy in the world and the BRI will quicken the process.

    For so many in Washington this is incomprehensible and destabilization is a well worn path they have used before.

    Xinjiang is the starting point for the BRI and grows 85% of China's cotton stock.

    The BRI on cotton alone will challenge America's number 1 cotton producing status.

    The old adage "follow the money" is appropriate when looking at Xinjiang.
18. Antony Davison 18

    18 May 2021 at 2:02 pm

    There are 100s and 100s and 100s of Xinjiang detention facilities clearly visible on GoogleEarth.
    I posted 8000 images taken from 2002 to 2020 here, so you can get a quick overview of the publicly available imagery.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmoXVvU8G0c&list=PLqvnKyovGJBvMg2UwvnDIL4l4qzc8V-p5
    I also posted a short addendum showing the incredible CCP rebuttal to overwhelming satellite evidence of mass incarceration.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHc-TdusgaI&list=PLqvnKyovGJBvMg2UwvnDIL4l4qzc8V-p5

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