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Voices of Aleppo.

Written By: - Date published: 10:22 am, December 31st, 2016 - 172 comments
Categories: International, journalism, Syria - Tags: , ,

Charlotte d’Ornellas is an independent French journalist who compiled a translated video of interviews with people from Aleppo.

More of her reporting can be found here.

172 comments on “Voices of Aleppo. ”

  1. Aaron 1

    One of the things that has surprised me about this issue is that Democracy Now! has been pedalling the US government line – something clearly contradicted by this and other reports.

    The fact that the rest of the western media broadcst the US government version of events is, quite naturally, no surprise.

    • Colonial Viper 1.1

      Don’t forget Obama just signed into law provisions once again allowing the US Gov to directly propagandise its people, overturning protections put in place by Truman in 1947.

      What a great President Obama has been, eh folks?

      • Kiwiri 1.1.1

        Why did Obama do that, particularly when those laws must not be overturned but actually strengthened even more when Trump is about to officially take the reins of power?

      • TheExtremist 1.1.2

        aren’t you the guy constantly citing RT and Fox?

        You know, active propaganda channels?

    • Jenny 1.2

      It is interesting that Democracy Now is also being attacked by Western supporters of the regime in Syria. Previously any link to media reports about Syria that contradicted the junta’s propaganda that they are fighting foreign sponsored regime change, and not a genocidal campaign against their own people, was automatically derided as being discredited because it came from Establishment Main Stream Media.

      Democracy Now is not mainstream or establishment, so I might ask you Aaron what is your rational for attacking Democracy Now’s credibility?

      • Colonial Viper 1.2.1

        Unfortunately Democracy Now has been running some Pentagon and CIA lines on the Syrian conflict.

        • Jenny 1.2.1.1

          Why would Democracy Now and Amy Goodman be “running some Pentagon and CIA lines”?

          I have to ask you CV, do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

          And why do you support a Junta that has killed tens of thousands of Syrian Civilians by bombing them from the air and robbing and torturing them for decades?

          And lastly, the question you always refuse to answer, who did this?

  2. Jeepers pretty inflammatory for the last day of the year – gives more armchair professors and war porn enthusiasts the excuse (if they ever need it) to come out the woodwork I suppose.

    I send my sorrow to ALL people in Syria – the hell you are living through is the worlds shame – I am so sorry for the terror you face and deal with constantly. Kia kaha I hope peace arrives this next second…

    • Bill 2.1

      ???

      What’s inflammatory about it marty? These are interviews with people of Aleppo that display hope and fortitude….a determination to rebuild lives and and community. Is it inflammatory because the way they see things doesn’t accord with the narrative we’ve been sold?

      I kind of hear their voices as an affirmation of humanity, but there you go…

      • marty mars 2.1.1

        I haven’t watched it and I won’t. If you don’t think the interpretations of events in Syria, from every angle and often with personal horror stories, are inflammatory then nothing I say will make any difference to you

        • Bill 2.1.1.1

          So there was no commentary attached to the post to comment on. And you didn’t watch and won’t watch the video or listen to the interviews. And yet you see fit to throw bullshit comments into the thread. Way to go marty.

          • marty mars 2.1.1.1.1

            “Jeepers pretty inflammatory for the last day of the year – gives more armchair professors and war porn enthusiasts the excuse (if they ever need it) to come out the woodwork I suppose.”

            That was what I said – hardly bullshit bubby.

            • Bill 2.1.1.1.1.1

              People in Aleppo were interviewed. The video presents what they have to say. C’est tout.

              edit – that was a good move on your part to withdraw the accusation that was originally in your comment. And since that was what a part of my comment was responding to….appropriately edited.

              • are you dim?

                how many different sides to the conflict?
                how many different groups fighting?
                how many individuals fighting for whatever they think is important?
                how many in each of these groups has dead family members and friends?

                so your interviews are based on what context?
                which groups?
                which individuals?
                which factions?
                which agendas?

                if you could even answer all of that then you would still have the issue of WHY push certain voices or interviews or factions or individuals

                but oh you know best don’t you – and it just happens to fit YOUR agenda – what a funny coincidence.

                grow up

                Edit – yes I changed, you changed – I’ll leave this one without change even though I responded to your unchanged comment to me.

                • Bill

                  🙄 Let me know when you’ve watched the link.

                  • 🙄 you’ll be waiting a long time

                  • D'Esterre

                    Bill: “Let me know when you’ve watched the link.”

                    Great link! I’ve passed it on to RNZ, supposedly the home of impartial journalism and reporting.

                    Unfortunately, Marty Mars and others who think like that are a lost cause.

                    I have family members who hold similar views: they’re so in thrall to Western – especially US – propaganda and just-so narratives, that they cannot be convinced otherwise. They sincerely believe that outlets such as CNN and the BBC are the arbiters of impartial reporting and journalism. No matter the countervailing evidence one puts before them, they’re unable to accept it.

                    • please don’t lie about or misrepresent what I think – I have made it crystal clear on this thread so there should be no misunderstanding.

                • adam

                  WOW marty mars, you really have not watched the video. Many of your own questions would be answered, if you did.

                  Does it rattle you that much that the official version is up for question?

                  WOW Bill, you are demonstrating the patience of a saint today.

                  • that you don’t get it doesn’t surprise me adam

                    if you’d bother reading instead of reaching for your eye pluckers you’d have noted that my initial comment was on the inflammatory nature of posting this type of subjective stuff on the last day of the year and I also offered support to the suffering people in Syria. Sure maybe I should have left alone but it did seem distasteful to me so there we go.

                    I don’t believe the official version, or any version, because of all of the (actually rhetorical and in many ways unanswerable) questions stated above.

                    but please adam judge all you like eh and watch out for all those glass houses eh lol

                    • adam

                      I invite you to watch the video, and you come back with ad hominems, all class mate.

                      If you actually watched you might find that it agrees more with what you are saying.

                      So I’m not judging, just pointing out the hole you keep digging yourself.

                      This site is about discussion, is it not? Even the uncomfortable ones. I’m not sure why hearing from people who have lived through the hell of a civil war is distasteful. Unpleasant, but reaching for distasteful just seems another way to try and shut down a discussion.

                    • Paul

                      Marty Mars and psycho milt appear unable to countenance the possibility of an alternative way of thinking.

                    • I don’t CARE if it agrees with my view or not – that is not the point. The point was lost amid the ego point-scoring – when all I did was comment on putting this type of video up.

                      Let me refresh your memory

                      “Jeepers pretty inflammatory for the last day of the year – gives more armchair professors and war porn enthusiasts the excuse (if they ever need it) to come out the woodwork I suppose.

                      I send my sorrow to ALL people in Syria – the hell you are living through is the worlds shame – I am so sorry for the terror you face and deal with constantly. Kia kaha I hope peace arrives this next second…”

                      yep that is real horrible and for those who want to score points please cut and paste the following – ‘oh the horror marty, how could you say those things, you are a terrible person who just supports the ones I think are my enemy even though I actually know NOTHING other than the propaganda that I read and I read the same sites all the time because their news is the best and is so accurate and real – not like the others who are lying and spinning for their political masters’

                      yep I’m a real arsehole alright lol

                      Edit: Paul I rather talk to organ grinders than their monkey’s – run along now…

                    • adam

                      The poor me argument from you marty mars is just lame, and you know it.

                      You have been invited to watch the video, but instead you stick to a point about the video you don’t not know, because you have not watched it.

                      I’ll remind you, you are the only one saying you are an arsehole. I’m definitely not, and have never thought you were.

                      Plus no one has said, looking at the discussion —- anything against the hell the people of Syria have gone through, in this long and bitter civil war. War is hell, jingoism is sick and people who support it, have somthing very wrong with them.

                      But, again the video, if you watch it – will hear the voice of people who have been through that hell. So as a measure of good will and sympathy to them, how about you watch the video. And forget people you disagree with on a ideological level have been raving about it.

                      Because all I’m asking is that you just stop for 10 minutes and hear from people living there. Forget the ideology, forget factions, forget the rest of it, listen to some people who have been living in hell.

                    • I am not “poor me” ing thanks.

                      “But, again the video, if you watch it – will hear the voice of people who have been through that hell.”

                      I’ve seen plenty of horrible, disgusting, sad stories from that country – tbh I don’t need more, I’ve heard them, I’ve seen the videos, I’ve read the blogs and do you know what I see and hear? SUFFERING. On all sides, from everyone.

                      “Because all I’m asking is that you just stop for 10 minutes and hear from people living there. Forget the ideology, forget factions, forget the rest of it, listen to some people who have been living in hell.”

                      obviously you haven’t read ANY of my posts on here today therefore I’m not engaging with a pulpit pashing sanctimonious prat like you any more. byeeeee 🙂

                    • adam

                      Arguing with you marty is pointless, you always go for personal attacks rather than the point raised.

                      I heard you loud and clear, you just don’t want to listen to anything, but you.

                      Ditto, ” I’m not engaging with ( as I’m not going to your level of personal insult – that part removed from your quote) you” as you are so ideological, no point even trying to have a discussion.

      • Psycho Milt 2.1.2

        What’s inflammatory about it marty?

        Marty asnwered, but I also can point to two things:
        1. “Independent” journalist goes to country run by ruthless dictatorship that doesn’t hesitate to torture and kill anyone who opposes it, and finds that all the locals she talks to are enthusiastic in their endorsement of the dictatorship and its security apparatus. Not exactly surprising, but not particularly useful except as propaganda for the dictator, either. Posting propaganda is inflammatory.

        2. The actual point of dispute that readers like me have with the continual posting of Assad regime propaganda on this site isn’t that Assad’s army and his Iranian and Russian patrons are fighting the rebels and winning – it’s that their preferred approach is of mass bombardment of the rebel-held suburbs and the targeting of their hospitals and emergency services. Posting material that attempts to excuse that is inflammatory.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.2.1

          +1

          I wonder how many jihadis Assad’s torturers have created in their time.

          • adam 2.1.2.1.1

            And how many have ISIS tortured, to create the same on the other side?

          • Colonial Viper 2.1.2.1.2

            I wonder how many jihadis Assad’s torturers have created in their time.

            I have no doubt that Assad’s regime executed, killed or disappeared scores of people a year.

            But the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar used that as an excuse to launch a proxy war of regime change which has no killed 400,000 to 500,000 Syrians. Not to mention displacing millions of others and causing dire refugee problems for all of Europe.

            And stupid white western colonialists bought into this as being justified. Stupid.

            • Paul 2.1.2.1.2.1

              As ever, spot on, CV.

              • Colonial Viper

                What also amazes me are all the identity politics lefties who hypocritically refuse to recognise that Assad’s legitimate government provided a safe secure society for women, for ethnic minorities, for Christians and Jews to advance in society.

                Now compare that to the Islamist “rebels” sponsored by Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey.

                • … lefties who hypocritically refuse to recognise that Assad’s legitimate government provided a safe secure society…

                  And Hitler built the autobahns, and Mussolini made the trains run on time. Your skills at turd-polishing are inarguable, but it remains turd-polishing nonetheless.

                  I’m old enough to remember people assiduously carrying out the same turd-polishing for the Warsaw Pact countries. They were people who fondly imagined themselves good people while working for a future that consisted of “a boot stamping on a human face — forever.” They were wrong and their equivalents today are just as wrong.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Except compared to ISIS, al-Nusra and al-Sham, the legitimate sovereign government of Syria are the good guys.

                    • Which is like saying that compared to the German communists, the National Socialist German Workers Party were the good guys. A sophist could easily make that case, but a sensible reader would be less interested in the case than the motivation of the person making it.

            • Jenny 2.1.2.1.2.2

              More evil from our resident fascist.

              “I have no doubt that Assad’s regime executed, killed or disappeared scores of people a year.

              But the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar used that as an excuse to launch a proxy war of regime change which has no killed 400,000 to 500,000 Syrians. Not to mention displacing millions of others and causing dire refugee problems for all of Europe.”

              Colonial Viper

              https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/16/syria-stories-behind-photos-killed-detainees

              Colonial Viper says that he has “no doubt” that the regime kills and murders scores of people a year. CV is comfortable with this level of mass detention and torture by the Assad regime, because according to him the 400,000 to half a million deaths, and the flood of 13 million refugees were caused by “a proxy war” against the Syrian State by the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar.

              However it is an absolute fact, denied by no one, that most of the 400,000 Syrian deaths are from the huge amount of HE dropped on Syrian cities from the air by the regime. (and its allies). And, it is this aerial bombardment of their homes and towns that the millions of Syrian refugees are fleeing to escape.

              In effect CV supports a regime that he admits, horrifically tortures and murders scores of Syrians a year. Because (in his twisted world view) the regime was forced to commit genocide against its own Syrian people, by an invasion of US backed foreign Jihadis. And not is committing this aerial genocide to put down an uprising of the Syrian people.

              In my opinion, what ever the reason, anyone who supports genocide, or mass murder, whatever the pretext, is expousing fascism. That CV supports the genocide being comitted by a regime, that he admits tortures and detains “scores a year” confirms the fact. The original German fascists detained and tortured and murdered millons using the same rational of outside and alien peoples conspiring against the state.

        • reason 2.1.2.2

          The real propaganda is the censoring of the real results of war ….. Iraq The Hidden Story …. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy-nn78aZhU

          Fisk … “I’ve believed, for many years now, that journalism – particularly television journalism – by its FAILURE to show the REAL horror of war, has become a lethal weapon – supporting governments who want to go to war.” –

          I feel particularly sorry for the people of Libya …… As Gaddafi was no Sadam and did a lot of good for his people and Africa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXM9JwSu2P4

          mad dogs brought destruction and death to them ….

      • Paul 2.1.3

        Milt is unable to question the MSM’s narrative.
        He tends to get psycho stating his point.

        • mauī 2.1.3.1

          Yep, you’re with the “regime” if you have a credible alternative picture of Syria. More bizarrely you can be with the regime if you’re a white western journo living outside the country or you’re an American academic.

        • Psycho Milt 2.1.3.2

          I notice you’re never actually able to mount a counter-argument against my points, just some ad hominem or some concern-trolling about my supposed inability to interpret news reports. I made two points above – do you have any substantive response whatsoever?

  3. Colonial Viper 3

    I am glad the truth about Aleppo is finally getting out. This is another loss for the jihadists and their big backers Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey and the neocons in the US deep state.

    It’s no surprise that people are welcoming the secular forces of Assad and Russia into the area.

    At least the minority Christians in Aleppo can celebrate Christmas again.

    • Exactly. And here we were all being fed the crap about Syria’s govt and Russia being the ogres. Well , I guess none of them can shine their halo’s but the extent of the western propaganda is almost criminal . Those people had nothing but praise for both Syria and Russia’s army.

      What struck me was young kids getting shot and killed on their way to – school !!!

      Sunni kids ! – the same as the ‘ jihadist’s’ …. this just goes to show they were butchers.

      If anything , that video showed the neo cons and their western media flunky’s for what they really are – bullshitting liars.

      It’ll be so good good to have these people have a time of relative peace to try and rebuild after all that death and sorrow and mindless destruction initiated by these ‘democratic ‘ rebels.

      And if you doubt we are being kept in the dark like mushrooms and fed on 100% pure bullshit – watch this :

    • I am glad the truth about Aleppo is finally getting out.

      What do you mean “finally?” The regime’s “truth” about it has been flooding YouTube for months – look up Aleppo and it’s hard to find anything that isn’t regime or Russian propaganda. It’s going to take a long time for any kind of “truth” about this that doesn’t need quotation marks around it to come out.

  4. Carolyn_nth 4

    Video posted on youtube by Boulevard Voltaire.

    Wikipedia says Boulevard Voltaire is a far right website.

    One of its founders is Robert Ménard

    Wikipedia says he began in politics as a Trotskyist and member of the French Socialist Party. Later he moved to the far right.

    Many say the site is racist and Islamophobic. Many of the articles about this are in French. Google translated this page and included this:

    The site Boulevard Voltaire seems very close to the ideology of the FN, its purpose being to denounce immigrants and Muslims, while applying relentless law of silence about Mind Control, the instrument of repression and manipulation fascists. Bd Voltaire is a site of crooks that hides the most important information to deceive the citizens and push them into the fascist nace.

    Boulevard Voltaire is close to the fascist Robert Ménard, who denounced the repression antitibétaine even while it participates in the fascist Mind Control that crushes France. That an individual close to Nazism like Ménard claims to defend human rights shows us to what extent the fascists have infiltrated all sectors of society in France.

    • Bill 4.1

      So here’s a thing Carolyn_nth.

      Let’s say for arguments sake that it was you who had gone to Aleppo and interviewed people. What media outlet would have carried the report? The Guardian? The Washington Post? The New York Times? Democracy Now!?…

      I’ll tell you the answer – none of the above.

      And so the likes of Vanessa Beeley goes to Alex Jones while Eva Bartlett seems to have opted for her own, already established blog.

      You want to shoot messengers, blow up their vehicles … maybe just listen the fuck to what people living in Aleppo say?

      • Carolyn_nth 4.1.1

        I have no doubt this is what some people are saying about Aleppo. But, as far as I understand it, the situation is very complex. I am skeptical about the claims in the video that the people shown represent the majority view in the area.

        And yes, it may provide a different perspective, and the reality for some there, which is not shown in mainstream media and websites in the west. But I doubt it amounts to the whole truth.

        • Bill 4.1.1.1

          I’d love to see or hear interviews of people from Aleppo carried out by mainstream outlets.

          I could be wrong in thinking it won’t happen simply because they played the role of stenographer and merely parroted a specious ‘official’ narrative. And that their position would fall apart if interviews were undertaken – in line with how that same ‘official’ narrative has been contradicted by ‘every’ independent journalist on the ground.

          • Carolyn_nth 4.1.1.1.1

            Well, I don’t know the ins and outs of the Aleppo conflict. The reports are diverse. The western media uses quotes (written and on video) of residents in Syria and Aleppo that focus on Assad as the main cause of oppression, the war and civilian causalities.

            The NY Times article has a video that does that – along with a load of US-perspective angles.

            This report from a resident in Aleppo, hosted on the Al Jazeera website, claims that the most brutal recent bombardment of Aleppo was by the Syrian government and Russian forces.

            I have three civil defence certificates, and another on the laws of war and peace. The last one is not mandatory, they teach it to people who want more information. I can say with full confidence that the international community does not enforce any of the laws of war.

            This same community has been watching what is happening in Aleppo for eight days. Aleppo is burning and the world is watching silently. Russian warplanes have not stopped bombing us, not for a second.

            They’ve dropped all kinds of forbidden munitions: phosphorous bombs, cluster munitions and the powerful bunker buster. I’ve seen these bombs destroy entire neighborhoods and bury people alive.

            The regime is targeting areas that were struck before, resulting in more casualties.

            When reports are diverse, it’s always useful to look at the angle the reporters are coming from, and their reputations.

            And, yes, the Western MSM do tend to show certain consistent biases in their reporting.

            When using video statements from people, they only use a small number. It’s easy to selectively use statements from people that support one’s biases. I prefer to have other supporting evidence if making claims about the views of a large number of people.

            People tend to judge video and audio statements from people as having more authenticity than print arguments and evidence, but that can be deceptive.

            • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Note Al Jazeera is a Qatari network. You’ll also find that they do almost zero coverage of the US backed Saudi war against Yemen.

              • Paul

                Follow the money.

                • Jenny

                  “Follow the money”

                  Paul

                  http://litci.org/en/rami-makhlouf-a-corruption-poster-boy/

                  “The Panama Papers have revealed what all Syrians fighting for freedom and the coherent sector of the Left already knew: the Assad regime is not only dictatorial, bloody and extremely repressive, it is also deeply corrupt and a great defender of neoliberalism. That is the first and most established face of imperialist policies in the country, not the people in arms! Unfortunately, there is still a sector of the “Left” that persists in ignoring reality.”

                  Florence Oppen.

            • Bill 4.1.1.1.1.2

              When reports are diverse, it’s always useful to look at the angle the reporters are coming from, and their reputations.

              The NYT vid is a direct lift from opposition forces. (Nothing wrong with that per se) Go to the end of the vid and you will see that Monther Etaky (the English speaking ‘Syrian Opposition Activist’ interviewed in the vid) is credited in its production. That all the interviews are with people aligned with the terrorist evacuation route certainly lets us know their angle.

              And the Al Jazeera report is by a ‘white helmet’ – which should tell you everything you need to know if you’ve been paying attention.

              And, yes, the Western MSM do tend to show certain consistent biases in their reporting.

              Indeed.

              Here’s other pieces by Ben Hubbard, who in line with other mainstream journalists, compiled his NYT piece from Lebanon.

              http://www.nytimes.com/by/ben-hubbard?action=click&contentCollection=Middle%20East&module=Byline&region=Header&pgtype=article

              • Carolyn_nth

                So knowing the sources is of use as part of judging reports.

                So the diverse attempts to make use of voices and/or reports from people in Syria/Aleppo, look like various positions in propaganda warfare. Undoubtedly the people suffering most are ordinary people in Syria/Aleppo.

                There seem to be a range of players jockeying for power in the area. i support none of them. It’s very hard to tell the bad guys from the bad guys.

        • Brigid 4.1.1.2

          How about this perspective Carolyn. Do you find this credible?

          (Can’t make href work)

          • Carolyn_nth 4.1.1.2.1

            That is an article from the Daily Telegraph by Raf Sanchez.

            I have no doubt that the war is causing such horrific causalities and injuries. Dr Nott blames the recent bombing by the Assad regime and Russians as the cause for such injuries.

            At the end, getting to Turkey seems to offer some hope. But according to reports I’ve seen elsewhere, turkey is now getting closer to Russia. And then there’s the Khurds… so many sides.

            • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.2.1.1

              Dr Nott blames the recent bombing by the Assad regime and Russians as the cause for such injuries.

              If the US and Turkey stopped training, funding, resupplying and importing the terrorist jihadist "rebels" this war would have been over more than two years ago.

              Assad and Russia are finishing it off now, though.

              • Jenny

                Colonial Viper doesn’t deny the majority of the 400,000 Syrian deaths and the millions of refugees were the result of the regime’s bombing campaign.

                But justifies this by saying:

                “If the US and Turkey stopped training, funding, resupplying and importing the terrorist jihadist “rebels” this war would have been over more than two years ago.”

                Colonial Viper

                This war would have “been over” more than two years ago if the regime had decided not to commit genocide by carpet bombing Syrian cites.

                This war would have been more than four years ago, if the western powers has supplied the rebels, shoulder mounted anti-aircraft weapons, that could have kept the regime’s aircraft on the ground.

                (They did not do so, out of fear that these weapons would fall into the hands of a close ally of the Syrian rebels, Hamas. And that Hamas would smuggle them into Gaza to use against Isaeli war planes.)

                This war would have been over more than one year ago if it had not been for Russian bombing from airbases in Iran, because despite the regime bombing the rebels were slowly over running the regime’s airbases, one, by one.

            • Brigid 4.1.1.2.1.2

              Well I’m glad you are open minded enough to read it.

              But do you really think it’s a credible report?
              They only had valium and ketamine for use as analgesic or anesthetic? But they didn’t have salt? A perfectly adequate disinfectant.
              Where did they get the ketamine from? The local jockey club (not original)?
              And “they had to amputate above the knee to
              get less infection” What? That’s hardly the language an English (presumably) doctor would use.
              This is the sort of hopeless bad reportage we’re offered to counter the reports by those in Syria such as Vanessa Beeley daughter of Sir Harold Beeley KCMG CBE, Eva Bartlett and others.
              This is what I believe:
              Anchez and Josie Ensor have been consulting google and they came upon ‘Valium’ (note the capital) and ‘ketamine’ (no capital) so they did a swift cut and paste. And they rest they constructed from what little brain matter they collectively possess.

        • james 4.1.1.3

          Not so complex. The Qatar-Turkey pipeline would have run through Syria but the Syrian government declined in order to protect the economic interests of its ally, Russia. So the Syrian government had to go. It was to be yet another regime change.

          • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.3.1

            Especially since Israel would have loved to expand 100km north and Turkey 100km south. So basically a done deal.

    • Jenny 4.2

      Who are Assad’s fascist supporters?

      https://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/syria-who-are-assads-fascist-supporters/

      “The Assad regime has won the support of fascists and far-right nationalist parties and organizations across Europe. These include the National Front (France), Forza Nuova and CasaPound (Italy), Golden Dawn and Black Lilly (Greece), the British National Party (UK) and the National Rebirth of Poland, Falanga and All Polish Youth (Poland).”

      “This support can be attributed to: anti-imperialist/anti-globalism sentiment with a strong focus on national states (they believe the Assad regime protects the Syrian state against US imperialism), Islamophobia (they believe the Assad regime fights Islamic extremists), anti-semitism (they believe Assad’s regime acts as resistance to Israel). All of these beliefs rest on fallacy and an uncritical perpetuation of regime narratives.[1] They are also positions shared (although without the racist element) by sections of the left.”

      Leila Al Shami

      • Colonial Viper 4.2.1

        Let’s just remember that Assad runs a secular government which protects minorities, protects different religious faiths including Christians and Jews, and elevates women to senior positions in government ministries and universities.

        Your bullshit Jenny would have Assad gone and replaced by the black flag of ISIS run up in Damascus, Christians and Jews killed, moderate Muslims slaughtered, and women enslaved.

        • Jenny 4.2.1.1

          Actually you are completely wrong headed on this CV.

          The revolt in Syria began as a democratic mass movement with its roots in the Arab Spring where women often played a leading role.

          Remember that CV?

          http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=One+woman%27s+story+Tahrir+Square+protests&view=detail&mid=564CEFAE8DE91A39CCDC564CEFAE8DE91A39CCDC&FORM=VIRE

          It was the dictator who exploited and inflamed sectarian divisions, in a classic divide and rule strategy.

          Case in point,; Before the revolt, Bashar Assad had paraded himself around the capitals of the West as a “progressive” (read pro-Western), “secular” leader. But on the outbreak of the democratic revolt suddenly transformed himself into a devout Alawite Muslim, and made sure to be filmed praying with other Alawites. Meanwhile demonising the majority Sunni sect. In Syria which is a very religious country, this strategy proved extremely toxic. (And Successful).

          Part of this campaign was the regime’s singling out of the (majority Sunni) Palestinian refugees, as ‘the other’.

          The first civilian area bombarded by the regime in early 2011 was the Palestinian refugee camp in the Northern coastal city of Latakia.

          Coincidentally I had spent 11 days in this refugee camp in late 2010, and can personally vouch for the fact that the refugees would have been completely helpless in the face of this military assault.

          And had to watch appalled at You tube clips that showed Government gun boats and tanks shelling the camp.

          What was their crime?

          Joining the anti regime protests in the city centre.

          http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=One+woman%27s+story+Tahrir+Square+protests&&view=detail&mid=6F80D32F19D8F028654D6F80D32F19D8F028654D&FORM=VRDGAR

          • mickysavage 4.2.1.1.1

            + 1

            Assad ain’t no left wing hero.

            • Bill 4.2.1.1.1.1

              Oddly Micky – and this does puzzle me – Baathist governments are/were the last(?) real world political expression of authoritarian leftism. Yet authoritarian leftists are among the most vociferous critics of Assad. (As you know I’m no fan of any of the above)

              As for supporting Jenny’s bunk about Syria being an extension of the Arab Spring…please! I know you find this stuff uncomfortable and distasteful and I suspect you wish people wouldn’t post on it.

              But if you do or read nothing else, will you take the time to read this fully referenced article by Stephen Gowans that traces and explains the recent historical and present context of Syria?

              It is seriously worth the effort.

              https://gowans.wordpress.com/2016/10/22/the-revolutionary-distemper-in-syria-that-wasnt/

              • tinfoilhat

                Stephen has a fascinating worldview.

              • Paul

                Excellent article
                The book coming out in 2017 looks a must read.

              • Yet authoritarian leftists are among the most vociferous critics of Assad.

                Er, what? “Authoritarian leftists” are enthusiasts for authoritarian government. On this site at least, all of them I’ve seen have been fully supportive of the Assad regime, it being an authoritarian government an’ all.

                Actually, looking at that Stephen Gowans Twitter feed, I see he regards Fidel Castro as a “legend of steadfastness and source of inspiration.” If that isn’t “authoritarian leftist,” the term has no meaning.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Nothing compared to the authoritarianism of salafi Sharia Law, duh. For starters, Assad lets women drive and doesn’t stone them to death for having sex.

                  That’s “authoritarian.”

                  • Paul

                    Pm thinks the rebels are moderate.

                    • Bill

                      PM thinks?!

                    • He is a much clearer reasoner than any of you lot. Even when I disagree with him his reasoning is visible. But not you useless tools – dumbarses untie!

                    • Clump_AKA Sam

                      Carful we don’t form another coalition of the stupid.

                      It is well known that if our response to ISIS in the Middle East has no ground game then any air campaign would drive ISIS supporters to ground or brake out of the Middle East into Turkey and now the African continent. Which has happened in limited numbers.

                      The correct procedure in combating ISIS would have been to send in the 1st US infantry division and 1st US armoured division when Mosal was first taken.

                      Now, nothing less than a Hittler style purge of the globe will rid us of this vile ideology.

                      These guys are smart. They built logistics trains for a living under Sudam. And like it or not ISIS militants don’t just believe they are the hero, if they didn’t put up a fight, the corporate backed Iraqi government would have killed them all anyway.

                      With so much water under the bridge, all that matters now is relative positions of power

  5. Paul 5

    Thank you for posting the work of independent journalists on this site.
    I also recommend the work of Patrick Cockburn, Robert Fisk, Eva Bartlett and Vanessa Beeley.
    We are slowly finding out how the msm lied to us again to create a narrative their owners wanted.
    I remain gobsmacked by the naivety and gullibility of some posters on this site. Wasn’t WMD in Iraq enough for you?

    • Colonial Viper 5.1

      Or more recently: how besieging Mosul is good and necessary and righteous, but how besieging Aleppo is criminal and tyrannical and barbaric.

      Obvious CIA run propaganda is blatant and obvious.

      People need to wake the fuck up.

      • Paul 5.1.1

        Yes. – there appears to be wilful ignorance and an inability to read.
        I received abuse over a period of 2 weeks on this site for simply posting the works of these independent journalists.
        Here’s an important one I posted – which you will have missed because you were banned.

        https://www.google.co.nz/amp/www.independent.co.uk/voices/iraq-syria-aleppo-mosul-patrick-cockburn-propaganda-we-consume-a7373951.html%3Famp

        And Eva Bartlett’s destruction of the MSM

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1

          When I popped by this site over the last month I noticed that you were putting up with a bollocking by some. Good on you. Just read that Cockburn piece it was very good.

          Reminds me of this piece – the Pentagon paid a British PR firm hundreds of millions of dollars to create fake news and staged propaganda video shoots which were then spread throughout the Middle East as genuine.

          http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/us-government-pentagon-fake-al-qaeda-propganda-videos-a7348371.html

          • Paul 5.1.1.1.1

            Yes, pm took particular offence when I named either of the brave journalists, Eva Bartlett and Vanessa Beeley.
            Not working for the BBC, CNN or Al Jazeera makes you a stooge of Assad, apparently.
            The wilful ignorance is breathtaking.

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1.1

              But we’re the Left! We’re smarter, more educated, more intelligent than everyone else! NYT, WaPo, Vox, Slate, Huffington Post are socially respectable reality! REEEEEEEEE!!!

            • Psycho Milt 5.1.1.1.1.2

              Not working for the BBC, CNN or Al Jazeera makes you a stooge of Assad, apparently.

              Please don’t lie about my comments. I’ve explained multiple times the basis for me calling those two “regime shills,” and no part of the explanation involved them not working for those organisations.

          • Jenny 5.1.1.1.2

            “Reminds me of this piece – the Pentagon paid a British PR firm hundreds of millions of dollars to create fake news and staged propaganda video shoots which were then spread throughout the Middle East as genuine.”
            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/us-government-pentagon-fake-al-qaeda-propganda-videos-a7348371.html

            Colonial Viper

            Are you making some sort of ironic joke CV?

            Along with a host of other tyrants, dictators and autocrats – The Assad’s are paid up clients of the British PR firm Bell Potinger that you just provided the above link to.

            https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/dec/09/bell-pottinger-tim-bell-pr-interview

            Dodgy regime? Unruly protesters? Bell Potinger can help

            From the ousted Thai PM to fracking company Cuadrilla and Asma al-Assad, the PR firm Bell Pottinger represents some of the world’s most notorious clients. Tim Bell, who masterminded Margaret Thatcher’s election campaigns, explains why he thinks his business is a force for good.

            If this wasn’t so ghastly and truely evil it would be comical.

            • Jenny 5.1.1.1.2.1

              More on Bell Potinger, the Assad family’s favoured British PR firm, linked to by Colonial Viper above.

              At first sight, the Curzon Street offices of Bell Pottinger Private are everything a conspiracy theorist could hope for. Next door, guarded by uniformed police officers with machine guns, squats the immense embassy of Saudi Arabia, a country with which the controversial PR firm’s even more controversial chairman, Tim Bell, has had decades of opaque, often defence-related dealings. Beyond the embassy is the rest of Mayfair, where businesses are discreet, ethics are flexible, and rich people with reputations to upgrade are in increasingly plentiful supply…..

              “We tell stories – I don’t mean lies. We work for people who want to tell their side of the story.”
              The government of Sri Lanka; FW de Klerk, when he ran against Nelson Mandela for president of South Africa; Thaksin Shinawatra, the ousted Thai premier, whom protesters claim still controls the country; Asma al-Assad, the wife of the president of Syria; Alexander Lukashenko, the dictator of Belarus; Rebekah Brooks after the phone-hacking scandal broke; the repressive governments of Bahrain and Egypt; the American occupying administration in Iraq; the polluting oil company Trafigura; the fracking company Cuadrilla; the athlete Oscar Pistorius after he was charged with murder; the Pinochet Foundation during its campaign against the former Chilean dictator’s British detention; the much-criticised arms conglomerate BAE Systems – Bell or Bell Pottinger has represented all of them. “They get involved in lots of ‘special situations’, in reputational and crisis PR,” says Alec Mattinson, the deputy editor of PR Week…..

              When I ask Henderson why they haven’t ever worked for controversial leftwing governments, such as the many currently in South America, he looks at me slightly uncomprehendingly, then says: “We’ve never been approached by a leftwing government, that I’m aware of.” Bell adds: “You don’t want an adviser that doesn’t agree with you.”…..

              At Bell Pottinger, clients with opposing interests are assigned separate PR teams, and the situation is kept manageable and ethical – at least by Bell Pottinger’s standards – by internal “Chinese walls”. Clients are always informed when the firm is representing a rival, says Henderson, but few walk away. Bell Pottinger’s ease with conflicts of interest, like its readiness to represent dubious clients, is easy to find chilling; but to detail and condemn it can act as a form of free advertising: there will always be people in the world who want an unsqueamish PR firm. Likewise any article that portrays Bell Pottinger as having tentacles everywhere: “I’m delighted to have people think we have a finger in every pie,” says Henderson, finally smiling. “Because that’s our objective!”

    • Would you please stop lumping regime shills Bartlett and Beeley in with actual journalists Fisk and Cockburn? It’s offensive. It’s also egregiously insulting to Fisk and Cockburn.

      • Brigid 5.2.1

        Have Fisk and Cockburn told you they’re egregiously offended?

      • Colonial Viper 5.2.2

        Lizzy Phelan of RT is also a gutsy, honest journalist who has been doing reporting from Aleppo.

        Psycho Milt your version of reality is increasingly fragged by the truth.

      • Morrissey 5.2.3

        Eva Bartlett and Vanessa Beeley are “regime shills”, are they? That would be funny if it wasn’t so flagrantly dishonest.

        If you’re looking for regime shills, have a watch of Al Jazeera, the BBC, our own TVNZ, or any of the U.S. networks.

  6. Paul 6

    Next time you hear the corporate media spouting on their next new bs topic, ‘fake’ news’- add Aleppo to the list of fake news stories propagated by the MSM.

    On that list
    Libya
    The Ukraine
    Scottish independence
    Brexit
    Iraq and WMD….

    It’s a long list…..

    • Colonial Viper 6.1

      Also:

      Hillary the next President
      Crimea
      Obama peace prize
      Saudi war against Yemen
      Anything Israel-Palestine

  7. Zorr 7

    Why is this posted by “Notices and Features”? It is neither. If one of the authors wants to take this side of the argument, then the least they can do is post it under their name.

    • Paul 7.1

      This is independent.
      Watch the clip.
      No side presented.

      • DH 7.1.1

        The term cognitive dissonance could have been invented just for you Paul.

        The only person interviewed who looked to be from East Aleppo was the woman in the black chador. Even she had left six months prior. The nuns look to be the only ones who might have been there during the recent heavy fighting…. although that was only implied rather than stated.

        The video is a production, as against a news story. It’s purpose is clearly to convey a certain message, as such it can reasonably be labelled propaganda.

        • marty mars 7.1.1.1

          yep just more slick work by the propagandists to push their agenda – meanwhile more people die, get injured and maimed – I am losing my patience with this bullshit.

          • Zorr 7.1.1.1.1

            Agreed

            I am tired of the treatment of sites such as ZeroHedge, Boulevard Voltaire, RT and all manner of alternate “news” sources as above reproach in such a noncritical manner. The MSM justly deserve the scorn heaped upon them because of their actions but this doesn’t make the alternative to them any more honest.

            Up thread, there is surprise expressed at the fact that Democracy Now! is running the “US agenda line”. They are the only alternative news source with an established history of supporting progressive movements while remaining firmly rooted in reporting reality.

            To my view, the fact that Assad is murdering civilians opposed to his regime is a reality that many here don’t want to see because this represents a proxy conflict between Russia and the US where the sides have been picked long before. For myself, I don’t have a dog in the fight other than I wish the violence could stop but that isn’t about to happen just by shoving the earplugs broadcasting soothing propaganda deeper in to our ears so that we can ignore reality better.

            • garibaldi 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Why don’t you take a look at the outcomes?
              How long have the yanks and Saudis been stuffing up Syria, and to what end?
              How long have the Ruskys been stuffing up Syria, and to what end?
              The answers are obvious in my opinion.
              The yanks and Saudis want war until the shias of Syria, Iran etc are wiped out. The Ruskys want to reinstate the elected Govt of Syria and then work forward.
              Who knows what will happen, but I think the Ruskys attitude is preferable in this case.

              • Zorr

                What outcomes? Horrific civil wars split 3 ways from Sunday resulting in mass civilian casualties? I cannot think of a “side” in this conflict that is without serious issues. I’m not taking any sides here apart from against those that want to ignore the reporting of mass murders because it would make support for Assad more difficult to justify.

                So yeah, screw that.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Nah Zorr, you conveniently ignore that this is NOT a civil war, but a proxy war first between regional powers, and more recently a proxy war between the USA and Russia.

                  I’ll tell you where I come from: even if Assad was disappearing scores of people a year into his secret police/secret prison system western colonialists and their foreign proxies had zero right in morality or international law to destroy that nation, kill 400,000 to 500,000 Syrians and displace millions more.

                  • Jenny

                    I’ll tell you where I come from: even if Assad was disappearing scores of people a year into his secret police/secret prison system western colonialists and their foreign proxies had zero right in morality or international law to destroy that nation, kill 400,000 to 500,000 Syrians and displace millions more.”

                    Colonial Viper

                    CV accuses “western colonialists” and their “foreign proxies” of killing 400,000 to 500,000 Syrians….

                    But when presented with testimony that this genocide is being committed by regime doesn’t deny it. Instead choosing to try and justify it.

                    https://thestandard.org.nz/voices-from-aleppo/#comment-1281169

                    And chillingly finishes by saying, and they are finishing it off now, though.

              • Zorr

                On a related note, it’s “funny” that this “post” (really, it was just posting a YouTube video presenting a one-sided viewpoint as a “notices and features” post without further explanation) is titled “Voices from Aleppo” because the dead have no voices and their story is currently being effectively erased.

                • Colonial Viper

                  “Voices from Aleppo” because the dead have no voices and their story is currently being effectively erased.

                  Their voices live on through their children and family members.

                  If you bother to listen to them, that is.

                • Bill

                  Funny how the only neutrality that some see is that buried in the regurgitations of official western narratives, innit? Also funny how any other take on Syria gets dismissed because it’s self evidently just shilling for Assad.

                  You might want to think that one through…

                • Jenny

                  If the dead could speak

            • Bill 7.1.1.1.1.2

              As I said way back up thread – you want to shoot messengers or blow up their vehicles? Or do you want to hear what people have to say through the only outlets they can access? Please link to several instances where those sites you mention have been held to be above reproach (note: I’m not meaning in reference to some single news item). It hasn’t happened. The point you make is one shared by most if not all commenters and authors.

              Democracy Now! covers a lot of stuff really well. On Syria they’ve fucked up big time. I don’t know why that’s the case or what the fuck is going on with them. So yes, I for one am very surprised at their reporting given their track record on other issues.

              Civilians have been killed by Assad’s military forces. He says that himself. Guess any Syrian smart bombs ain’t quite as smart as those we’re going to see dropped on or launched into Mosul.

              And you know a ceasefire has been brokered and appears to be holding, yes? Meaning that, at least for now, the violence has stopped.

            • Brigid 7.1.1.1.1.3

              Zorr you said, ” For myself, I don’t have a dog in the fight ”
              But you do as then you said, ” the fact that Assad is murdering civilians opposed to his regime is a reality”

              I’d really really like you to provide something, anything, that encourages us all to believe that Assad is murdering civilians.

          • Bill 7.1.1.1.2

            Just as I’m losing patience with yours, whereby you state quite categorically that you will not avail yourself of the content of a post but assume to spray shit down the comments section regardless.

        • Bill 7.1.1.2

          Pere Georges Sabe (frere mariste d’Alep) is not from Aleppo??!

          Monseigneur Jeanbart archeveque grec melkite catholique d’alep is, similarily, not from Aleppo??!

          Pretend that google is your friend.

          If it’s a case that you want to maintain residents of Aleppo have fuck all to say that’s worth hearing unless they have been living in precise eastern districts of your choosing, then it shows you have absolutely no understanding of what was happening in Aleppo. None.

          Or that you do understand fine well what’s been happening, but inhabit a moral and intellectual void.

          There is absolutely a heavy christian weighting given to the interviewees. But I linked to the journalist’s other works and a quick run through of her other stuff should mean that comes as absolutely no surprise.

          Meanwhile, you care to point out what characteristics would make a person ‘look to be’ from eastern districts of Aleppo? Is it a global thing? Y’know, does someone born in eastern suburbs of Christchurch (say) looks different to someone from the city’s western suburbs?

          • DH 7.1.1.2.1

            What are you on about Bill?

            It’s pretty plain to the neutral observer that the people interviewed are all from the Government Controlled part of West Aleppo… with the exception of the lady in the chador.

            There’s a young man who is probably originally from East Aleppo who wants to “visit his shop” and there’s the Bishop who left some indeterminate time ago, but they all were living in Syrian Government controlled areas while the recent bombing and heavy fighting was occuring.

            Please don’t insult our intelligence by claiming they are the “Voices of Aleppo”

            • Bill 7.1.1.2.1.1

              There were mortars and ‘hell cannon’ etc being launched into western districts of Aleppo from eastern districts. Many people in western districts of Aleppo were killed or maimed as a result. But I guess that just doesn’t count for sweet fuck all in your view of worthy and unworthy victims, eh?

              edit – that and many people got the hell out of eastern districts and headed to western districts if they could. No easy matter.

              • Colonial Viper

                Especially since the “rebels” used those fleeing as target practice.

              • DH

                Fuck off with your ‘worthy and unworthy victims’ you ignorant asshole (edited)

                Just ban me you authoritarian prick, I’m not going to give crap like that any more oxygen.

        • Morrissey 7.1.1.3

          The video is a production, as against a news story.

          Moron-spotters may be interested to know I’ve just found someone who swallows wholesale what he hears from the lips of network TV autocue readers.

          http://www.mtv.com/shared/promoimages/news/l/life/dudes_girls/girls/breakup1.jpg

  8. DH 8

    What’s the point of this? The video is just more propaganda, do we really need more of this incessant blaming?

    The only genuine thing being said in the video is that people are glad the fighting has ended. That hardly needs saying.

    • Paul 8.1

      The western narrative is pure propaganda.
      And you believe it.

      Wilfully?
      Or naively?

      • Wayne 8.1.1

        Paul,

        Whatever you say, I know I should believe the opposite.

        RT is a Russian govt channel operating under its direction. That means propaganda when it comes to the Russian view of the war. No criticism of Russia on RT, no matter how many hospitals its Air Force bombs.

        RT is very slick though – seems to have learned from Fox. And that alone captures an audience. In comparison BBC is dullsville.

        But CNN and most western media are independent from the govt. And the BBC has an independent charter, and does criticise the govt with absolute impunity; ask Mr Blair.

        Heres a small clue. Is it the US or the Russian govt that routinely arrests journalists in opposition to it?

        But since you are a fellow traveller, I guess none of this matters.

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1

          ” But CNN and most western media are independent from the govt.”

          What about WaPo owner Jeff Bezos taking hundreds of millions in CIA contracts?

          Or the New York Times near total reliance on anonymous establishment sources while continuing to ignore most any non US-Anglo supporting narratives?

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.2

          ” Heres a small clue. Is it the US or the Russian govt that routinely arrests journalists in opposition to it?”

          True. The US operates a different system: it rewards careerist shills with access, promotions and prominence.

          If you don’t tow the approved line you end up reporting weather in Nebraska. Or traffic in Oakland.

        • Bill 8.1.1.3

          Here’s a fun wee exercise for you Wayne..

          Google “madaya starvation”. Now take note of the first page of hits.

          Now add the word “fake” to the search and resubmit. Notice anything?

          Here’s the thing. Do some basic internet research and it becomes absolutely apparent that the Syrian government wasn’t behind any starvation in Madaya – that there was a huge campaign of misinformation.

          But hey. Why would the more ‘esteemed’ outlets want to debunk their own sexy headlines? I mean, that might mean they were more interested in news, aye?

        • reason 8.1.1.4

          Wayne a proven racist warmongerer with a well documented past of pro war lies drops into this thread to show nothings changed with him ….. http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/search?q=mapp%2Bwar

          He’s got as much ‘guts’ as john key ….. brave little men with big war voices https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8veOzd39VWI&t=217s

  9. Jenny 9

    Deeply sick stuff.

    @3:57 minutes

    “Stupefaction in front of so much destruction, of course they are mostly the results of Syrian and Russian bombing.

    But the inhabitants seem to understand them.”

    “I say it is righteous, because whenever you have an enemy in your land you have all the right to fight them. You will do the same actually when the Jihadists are in your country. You are going to bomb them with everything you have.”

    Bomb them with everything you have?

    To date:

    400,000, men, women, children dead. Killed “mostly” as this piece of regime propaganda readily admits, by regime and Russian bombing.

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=syrian+death+toll&FORM=HDRSC3

    13 million refugees forced to flee their towns and cities to escape this genocide from the air.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/11/report-on-syria-conflict-finds-115-of-population-killed-or-injured

    As far as I know none of these figures are in dispute, even less so the causative factor, the aerial bombardment by the regime and its allies.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syrian-government-forces-responsible-for-more-civilian-deaths-than-isis-human-rights-group-claims-a6673956.html

    Don’t support genocide.

    Don’t support fascism.

    (It really shouldn’t have to be said)

  10. Jenny 10

    “Torture, atrocity, crimes committed against civilians….”

    “There were many people rendered to Syria from Pakistan and Jordan…..”

    Maher Arar

    https://www.democracynow.org/2011/6/13/maher_arar_my_rendition_torture_in

    • Jenny 10.1

      The comments I ascribed above were rushed and taken from the sound track.

      I actually see now that there is a more accurate transcript of this interview with Maher Arar under the video.

  11. I see from watching the video that the post is disingenuous. “Voices from Aleppo” they certainly are, but for the most part they look to be from west Aleppo, which was held by the regime. No doubt those people are chuffed that the regime’s taken east Aleppo. However, it tells us little about what the people of east Aleppo might feel about having had their part of the city bombed to rubble over the last few years.

    • Bill 11.1

      Yes well, of course PM. That follows. I mean, I’m from S.Dunedin and so have nothing in common with those from N. Dunedin and in fact we’re like two fucking tribes with a history of antipathy, antagonism and disconnect… just like it must be for different districts and areas of Aleppo.

      Can’t for the life of me understand why I never realised that before!

      • Psycho Milt 11.1.1

        There is the slight difference that south and north Dunedin aren’t held by opposing factions in a vicious civil war. If they were, we’d probably want to know whether a video of Dunedin residents’ views on the recapture of north Dunedin by government forces featured residents of north Dunedin or not. This is a point that ought to be obvious, and I can’t for the life of me either understand why you haven’t realised that before.

        • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1

          Aleppo isn’t held by opposing factions of anything.

          It’s held by Assad’s Syrian Arab Army.

        • Bill 11.1.1.2

          Well, if north Dunedin had been fucked over by terrorists for four or five years meaning my family and/or friends were trapped in a northern enclave, and if the b’satrds had launched IEDs made from gas canisters and water tanks into south Dunedin and western Dunedin and eastern Dunedin killing and maiming over those years, yeah…I reckon I might have something to say.

          And those who had fled from north Dunedin might have something to say.

          And those who couldn’t flee might have something to say too.

        • Psycho Milt 11.1.1.3

          And if the NZ government, its foreign-backed militias and its great-power ally had spent years bombarding north Dunedin to rubble, I’d be more interested in what the people who’d lived through that had to say than in hearing from people who hadn’t.

          • Bill 11.1.1.3.1

            Oh dear. You always have your eggs scrambled, aye?

          • Andrea 11.1.1.3.2

            “I’d be more interested in what the people who’d lived through that had to say ”

            Which people would be most interesting for you to hear from?

            People trying to bring calm and education to little kids in underground places? Minority people? The White Hat guys? The hospital workers? The everyday folk trying to make one meal a day from tainted water, grass, and solar power?

            Who would pique your interest?

            And for how long…? And why?

    • Brigid 11.2

      You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now Psycho
      “but for the most part they look to be from west Aleppo”
      They do? How can you tell?
      The East Aleppoians have three legs?
      Speak with an Inner Mongolian accent?
      All have green hair?

      What is it Psycho?

      And who told you this?

      • Psycho Milt 11.2.1

        The video told me. I get the feeling you don’t cast a critical eye over propaganda that affirms your prejudices, but you should do it even when you’re being told something you want to hear.

        Here’s how you know the video is about how the people of government-held west Aleppo feel about the government “liberating” east Aleppo:

        1. The video includes footage of east Aleppo; it’s mostly destroyed and empty. But the footage it shows of people celebrating east Aleppo’s “liberation” is from a city that patently hasn’t spent the last four years being bombarded to rubble. That’s because it’s not being filmed in east Aleppo and it shows government supporters in west Aleppo celebrating the government’s victory.

        2. Likewise, some of the people are interviewed in an undamaged city, ie not in east Aleppo.

        3. The young man who speaks English and is filmed in front of war damage lets slip that he’s from west Aleppo. Irritated at the western media stories about hospitals in east Aleppo being bombed, he asks where the media was when “they” were bombing “us,” ie when rebels in east Aleppo were launching missiles into west Aleppo.

        4. There’s footage of happy, well-dressed people visiting the citadel and congratulating the soldiers there. If you’ve seen videos of the people fleeing east Aleppo with only the clothes on their backs, you won’t have any problem identifying the people congratulating the soldiers as visitors from the government side coming to view the ruins.

        I have very limited patience for propaganda videos so stopped watching at that point, but it was enough to be able to spot the grift.

        • Brigid 11.2.1.1

          Your powers of observation are astounding; deduction, not so much.

          • Psycho Milt 11.2.1.1.1

            In other words, you didn’t like the content but don’t have a substantive counter-argument.

            • Colonial Viper 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Many tens of thousands of East Aleppo residents have fled to West Aleppo shelters and to the homes of extended family in the last few weeks, since the rebels were pushed out.

              Relatively few remain in devastated, infrastructurally destroyed East Aleppo.

              That explains all your clever observations.

  12. Drowsy M. Kram 12

    Who bears the burden of responsibility for the human devastation in Aleppo? At least two viewpoints/positions are being advocated here. The truth may lie closer to one position or somewhere in no-man’s land, and the debate has been going on long enough for protagonists and observers to see that each position is practically immutable.

    Stamina (if that’s the right word) is admirable, but what is achieved by continuing to grind away? Consider the option of ‘Agreeing to Disagree’, and have a palmy New Year.

    “The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” – Bertrand Russell

    “Why Can’t We All Just Get Along?”

    • Jenny 12.1

      Cute

      But the New Zealand Assadists and Trump-pets, just like some weird murderous kind of martian aliens, refuse to, “Just get along.”

      Witness them trolling a completelly unrelated post on the Mt Albert by-election, HERE. And attacking the Green Party candidate for being “American”, HERE.

      As well as attacking the Green Party candidate Julieanne Genter for being “American”.
      Genter has earned these nutters especial hate for expressing support for the civilian First responders known as the White Helmets, who along with hospitals, have been a prime target of regime air strikes, in particular, notorious “double tap” bombings, that the regime uses to specifically target these rescuers.

      You really have to wonder, at the level of their mindless vitriol; Are these proto-fascists planning protests against the Green Party candidate?

      It wouldn’t surprise me if they were, after witnessing them harrassing Syrian refugees and their suppporters at a rally for Aleppo held in Auckland.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11769042

      • Paul 12.1.1

        Patrick Cockburn and Robert Fisk are more reliable arbiters of the authenticity of the ‘White Helmets’ than either the NZ Herald or the Green candidate for Mt Albert.

        I to find out about the Universe , I ask an astronomist – not a palm reader oran astrologist.

        • Jenny 12.1.1.1

          Would that be the same Robert Fisk who is an embedded member in the ruling Lebanon establishment, in which, Hezbollah are a prominent power?

          Don’t support fascism

          (it really shouldn’t have to be said)

          • Paul 12.1.1.1.1

            So you think the NZ Herald and the Green candidate for Mt Albert know more than Patrick Cockburn.

            If I want to learn about the state of the Arctic, I ask several climate scientists, not Fox News and Donald Trump.

            If I want to learn about the machinations of Middle Eastern poltics, I read the work of various experienced and respected independent journalists, rather than sourcing the NZ herald and a NZ MP.

        • Psycho Milt 12.1.1.2

          Patrick Cockburn and Robert Fisk are more reliable arbiters of the authenticity of the ‘White Helmets’ …

          Well, I guess. Tell us Paul, what have they had to say about the authenticity of the White Helmets? Let’s have some quotes and links.

        • Jenny 12.1.1.3

          “Patrick Cockburn and Robert Fisk are more reliable arbiters of the authenticity of the ‘White Helmets’ than either the NZ Herald or the Green candidate for Mt Albert.”

          Paul

          The Herald report was about a protest by resident Syrians and their supporters that was harrassed by Trump and Assad supporters.

          Are you saying this report is untrue?

      • One Two 12.1.2

        Jenny, do you believe that ‘f*scists’ can be the liberators of ‘f*scism’?

  13. Jenny 13

    Genter throws fuel on the flames to further enrage the Assadists

    My lowlights of 2016
    The ongoing challenge of Standing Rock. Indigenous peoples have already lost so much. It was so inspiring to watch them stand up to protect water and the climate. It’s just so sad they had to.
    On a personal note, I lost both my maternal grandparents this year, aged 91 and 92.
    Elsewhere: Donald (’nuff said), Brexit (where young, optimistic voters were outnumbered by older, xenophobic ones), and Aleppo (no words).

    https://blog.greens.org.nz/2017/01/01/well-that-happened-julie-anne-genter-reflects-on-2016/

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