Vote!

Written By: - Date published: 8:56 am, October 4th, 2013 - 78 comments
Categories: democratic participation, local body elections, local government - Tags:

VoteThere is just over a week to go to the end of the current local body elections and turnout is small.  In Auckland as at yesterday the return of votes was running at 14.64% compared to 22.6% in 2010.  Things are not much better in other parts of the country.  In Wellington the proportion is 15.47% compared to 15.87% at the same time last election.  Christchurch is doing relatively well at 20.65% despite it appearing that Lianne Dalziel will romp home in the Mayoral contest.  In Dunedin turnout is so far half what it was last time.

This is concerning, particularly in Auckland.  Elections there tend to zig zag between left and right.  With low turnouts the main motivating factor is grumpiness with the incumbents so apart from long serving representatives who tend to hang around the middle there is often a lurch from left to right and back as grumpiness amongst the electorate punishes those perceived to have gone too far.

Auckland Council is finely balanced with progressives being a minority and a group of independents deciding issues vote by vote.  The right is not far from control and the nature of the next Council will depend on a handful of competitions.  Privatisation of Council assets and the loss of the living wage campaign could only be a couple of votes away.

There are a handful of Council contests that could be vital.  Out west Christine Rose is up against number 74 on National’s list Linda Cooper.  Linda claims to be an independent despite strong links to the National Party and a loss out west will be a net gain for the right.  Christine is a progressive with impeccable credentials and has been endorsed by former Councillor Sandra Coney.

In the Whau ward Labour’s Ross Clow stands a good chance against C&R Nolene Raffles.  In Maungakiekie Labour’s Richard Northey is under a well funded and sustained attack by Denise Krum.  In Albert Eden Cathy Casey is also under threat from C&R’s Nigel Turnbull.  Cathy is not helped by the presence of another progressive candidate Phil Chase.

All of these battles are vital and could be won or lost by a handful of votes.

And why is this important?  Because Local Government provides the best way to change the place you live in.  Whether through ensuring environmental protection or support for community decisions made at a local level can have a huge and lasting effect.

As Julie Fairley has put it local government is vital because of libraries, parks, transport, fairness, housing and democracy.  The right wing approach to these issues is short sighted and damaging, the progressive approach is futuristic and nurturing.

So wherever you live make sure you vote.  And while you are at it get your family and friends to do the same.

Votes have to be posted by October 9 to make sure they count.

78 comments on “Vote!”

  1. Speaking from Hamilton, there is a dearth of vote worthy candidates.
    None of the incumbents are getting my vote as not one of them voted against the development of Stan Heather rugby park in Deanwell.

    Of the multitude of aspirants, including the old dick with his pre pubescent son running under the banner of two generations for one (like daddies boy know fu*k all about fu*k all), and the act weirdos in drag (Someone should ask Steve mclennan his views on domestic violence and then has he ever hit a woman), there are only two prospective councillors likely to get a tick.

    • mickysavage 1.1

      Any comment Al1en on the Mayoral race? I understand Hardaker is right but McPherson pulling out and endorsing Wilson seems just weird to me. Is there some local local nuance that is not evident? Wilson’s background hardly fills a progressive with any confidence.

      • The Al1en 1.1.1

        The candidates in this race really leave a lot to be desired, and of course, who knows what they stand for, it’s all election by prominent billboard site. I’ve had one envelope in the mail and zero door knocks. That’s the election for me in a nut shell.

        Wilson got his face on TV over the fluoride issue, that it seems is enough to become mayor, despite the Hamilton airport fail as credentials.
        Mcpherson is a nugget, self serving like most long term councillors. He’ll have a deputy seat (or other perk) in the bag for his ‘effort’, no doubt.

        Hamilton is a weird little place. Like Ozzy said “I love you, but you’re all fu*king mental”

    • richard 1.2

      What is it about The Tron that attracts the remnants of the Act party? I see their ex-president is standing for Hamilton East under a party called “New Council – New Direction”. Surely that should be a rallying call to all residents – to make sure that their old direction doesn’t get in

    • stargazer 1.3

      looks like you’re on the left ward. two very good progressive candidates to support are holly snape & jamie toko (the latter a long-time worker for SFWU). i’d also strongly recommend martin gallagher on the west side. i’m standing on the east, & can strongly recommend peter humphreys as someone with a strong social justice platform.

      re mayoral candidates, in terms of progressive policies, ewan wilson is the best option. the influence of ray stark, who has been throwing a whole lot of money around in this campaign (possibly sourced from a group of big business backers in the city, though i have no concrete proof of this, just something let slip by one of the people supporting gary mallett) is going to be hard to determine. however, I’ve also heard that one of the main aims of this group is to remove the rates differential so that more of the rates burden falls on residential ratepayers. mr stark has endorsed ms hardaker, & that is a concern.

      low voter turnout is definitely a problem. i’m really hoping there will be a late burst.

    • Colonial Viper 1.4

      Hamiltonians. West Ward.

      Holly Snape should be at the top of your list. Solid lefty, politically experienced as an activist, strong grass roots Labour values. Endorsed by CV.

      • The Al1en 1.4.1

        Yes, she runs the community house in sMelville and will certainly be one of my picks.

        I won’t vote Gallagher, even though I voted for him nationally in ’02 and for council last time out, because he did nothing to save the park, he didn’t reply to my email and mainly because he’s a Gallagher.

  2. karol 2

    Was leaving my voting till I had space to concentrate – so many candidates to look at. Was planning to do it this weekend or Monday.

  3. King Kong 3

    [deleted – Can’t you do better than this?- ms]

  4. risildowgtm 4

    I always vote
    Time for Brendan Duffy in horowhenua to go. Hopefully this time he loses…. People here have had it with him and the rest of his lackeys on the council

    • David H 4.1

      I’m Horowhenua, and I have NO clue as to who is who, and what they stand for. And a business card will not really grab my attention, and thats ALL I have had.

      SO, Vote.
      Ok
      Who for?
      Because they are NOT interested in telling me who they are, So i figure they don’t deserve my vote.

      • risildowgtn 4.1.1

        Anne Hunt is who I voted for Mayor……

        The rest i read that booklet and did some googling on em cos I dunno myself who 3/4 of em are and I lived here all my life and asked people …..

        Councillors who been troughing IMO are out…. and HDC or wotever they call em this week is full of them
        Time for new blood..

        Time to get the god fearing right wing nutters out

        • David H 4.1.1.1

          Well I’ll go down today. Just updated my details so have to take the printout down anyway.

      • Te Reo Putake 4.1.2

        They have this interweb thing now David. Candidate No3 for mayor is the go, if you can stop sulking for the time it takes to fill out the form.

        http://www.horowhenua.govt.nz/Council/YourCouncil/Elections/Candidate-Profiles1/

        • David H 4.1.2.1

          Hey TRP I am NOT Stupid. Also I did not ask you to put in your 2 cents worth. I was asking someone else. And making an observation on the appalling way that these so called Professional people, whom would like my Vote ( I am Presuming here) Because they cant even be bothered, or are too lazy, to post me anything bigger than a fucking Business card. Now if someone wants ANYTHING from me, be it A computer repair, or my Vote, then they had better Fucking ASK me first.! Or they will get nothing. Now BUTT OUT!

          • Te Reo Putake 4.1.2.1.1

            Grow up, David. All the candidates are making an effort; their signs are up, they are door knocking, leafleting, attending functions, putting profiles on the net etc. The problem is that you are a sad sack who can’t be arsed opening your eyes or making the slightest effort to find a candidate you might like. It’s not their problem, it’s yours.

            • muzza 4.1.2.1.1.1

              Live in the H, do you Voice?

              Perhaps try being less condescending, then when called on it, insulting, if you can control yourself , at all!

              • Te Reo Putake

                Fuck off, muz. The point I made is relevant wherever David lives. And as for condescending, a) you apparently don’t know what the word means, and b) this confession will mark you down as the most condescending (and illiterate) commenter here forever:

                “Ive been using The Standard as a personal research project (i’ve actually stated that at least twice since posting over the past 18 months or so) for learning how small sectors of NZ’s attuned (supposedly) online communities, descend into various types of mob behavior, which appears as if it is some form of mass (herd mentality) mind control.”

                • muzza

                  Don’t worry Voice, you’re winning!

                  Still get’s you, that!

                  Just keep the insults coming bro, with each and every utterance, you give another piece of yourself over!

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    Your admission doesn’t get me, pal, it gets you. Having fessed up, you’re forever marked as a pompous pseud. Bad luck son, but one bonus point for at least sticking to your handle despite the embarrassment.

                    • muzza

                      Yes, it get’s you, which is why you have had to take the time, go dig it up. Or perhaps you keep it in thatspecial folder, you know the one I mean, Voice!

                      Embarrassment – I’ll leave that to you bro. This is the online world, and if you are capable of projecting that in my virtual direction, again you have gone full frontal!

                      Pause, and have a little think about what embarrassment is!

                      Once you believe you understand, what it is , run it by me, and i’ll QA it for you. If you can begin to live your life around such understandings, it will be more pleasant for you, and others will enjoy your company!

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Yet another stream of unconsciousness. Wibble, wibble.

  5. Craig 5

    Define “progressive” incumbents. I live in Wellington, but if it were Auckland, I’d be voting Minto instead of Brown for the mayoralty, and also urge Akld local body voters to vote against those councillors who back Brown on his myopic jihad against street sex workers in Manukau and against beggars on Auckland city streets. Both policies are short-sighted blame-the-victim populist tactics.

    • tinfoilhat 5.1

      I couldn’t agree more Craig unfortunately there are so many National and Labour supporting councillors with their noses in the trough there will be little change in Auckland apart from the inevitable hike in rates and the salaries of the mayor, the councillors and the assorted bigwigs in the council offices and council controlled organisations. it’s almost unbelievable but the auckland council and their cronies are an even bigger buggers muddle than the government.

      …eh moderation ??

      • Sable 5.1.1

        +1 Yep same snouts in the trough bullshit we see here in Wellington….Bunch of lazy, incompetent no-hopers who expect us to cough up ever increasing rates to pay for their foibles and excesses….

  6. Sable 6

    I took the time to vote here in Wellington as did my wife. I personally loathe Wade Brown but would not be surprised to see the impractical, wasteful, odd ball back in office. Where however are the alternatives? Her opponents, perhaps with the exception of Jack Yan are to say the least, “burnt offerings”.

    Its not surprising that people can’t be bothered voting there are really pretty limited choices in many cases which does indeed allow for small organised groups of voters to push their chosen candidate back into office.

    If different groups left or right want people to take an interest then for f**k’s sake have the common sense to put forward a candidate who one, has policies that make sense and are going to keep rates down and two, has genuine ability. Not a bunch of under achieving “no hopers” and odd balls with their own peculiar political agenda that is out of touch with voter expectations.

    • Chris 6.1

      ditto sable…

      For me it was more a matter of who I wouldn’t vote for. Never heard of most of the candidates.

      • GregJ 6.1.1

        I voted Wade-Brown at 1 as she is the best choice to make sure Morrison doesn’t get in. I’d agree that the Mayoral candidates are pretty uninspiring & Wade-Brown’s term has not lived up to its potential – but we need a good progressive council to give her the support/backbone to take the city in a progressive direction.

        Southern Ward has good Labour & Green Candidates & Will Moore is a good alternative to these two. Even Pepperell isn’t too bad. Sadly there is a distinct lack of female candidates in Southern Ward (only Ginette McDonald).

        Wellington Regional Council has some good progressive options: Ponter (Lab), Kedgley, Bruce (Greens), Paretutanganui-Tamati (Mana) – However Laidlaw & Wilde seem to have long left any progressive thinking behind and are long term incumbents so they (along with Ruth Aiken another perpetual local politician) are down the bottom for me.

        Health Board is always tricky – so many seem to stand – it really needs some sort of Ward system. I selected 11-12 as ranking all 23 was quite difficult. I try to pick an even gender balance, prefer Nurses over Doctors, support Labour & Greens, treat business people warily, and look for at least one person local to my area to support.

  7. bad12 7

    i voted for Celia as Mayor even tho the only thing Green about Her appears from my limited vision to be the fact that She rides a bike,

    i get the feeling that Morrison may just sneak the Mayoralty way from the present incumbent via the preferences, Morrison with a face recognition factor is very likely to be number 2 on peoples list of preference,(i put Him at 5),

    i will console myself with the thought of having Him as Mayor will bring forward a clash of development v Green issues, galvanizing the large radically Green demographic here in Wellington,

    Just in time to wake everyone up to vote Green at the 2014 election, the Tories do have their ‘odd’ use occasionally…

    • miravox 7.1

      I voted in Wellington entirely against the overpass – I haven’t voted single issue for years. But not Celia, it was minor candidates for mayor for me, so probably wasn’t worth the effort. Still it felt good to leave Morrison and Wade Brown off the list.

      The health board had the most interesting candidates, I reckon.

  8. adam 8

    Personally I hate the catch phrase “If you don’t vote you can’t complain” seem just like one more layer of statements for disempower of people. And it can be seen as an out right attack on anarchism. Yes the Libertarian left who see elections as a con, just another way to make people SHUT UP AND DO AS YOUR TOLD! Yeap – SHUT up and do as your told! Moe the verge, don’t complain, don’t ask questions, respect authority and be a good little slave.

    Have the social democrats in this country realized that working people are sick of you do nothing wet liberalism? Have they released you slight deviation of the norm is the same rubbish with window dressing? That working people are smarter than politico types give them?

    Probably no – so lets bash working stiffs some more – make them feel bad – because they don’t want or can’t make the time to vote. Getting food for the kids or having to work that extra shift at work to pay the bills and I’m bloody tired. Typical crap from the left – wet and liberal. Make an offer to make life better – if not for me, at least the kids – or, SHUT UP AND DO AS YOUR TOLD!

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      That’s a pretty stupid and short sighted view you are espousing there.

      Firstly, who gives a fuck about “anarchism”. Are you an anarchist? Are you supporting an anarchist political philosophy? No? Then WTF are you on about.

      Secondly, what is all this “SHUT UP AND DO AS YOUR TOLD” b.s.?

      Voting is an opportunity for people to have THEIR SAY. Did that fact just skip past your head? Who voted you in (lol) as spokesperson for “working people”??? Dickhead.

      Probably no – so lets bash working stiffs some more – make them feel bad – because they don’t want or can’t make the time to vote.

      It might be in your interests to try and depress the working class vote turn out, but you can fuck off.

      • weka 8.1.1

        “Who voted you in (lol) as spokesperson for “working people”??? Dickhead.”

        Not to mention that everyone works (well pretty much everyone).

        Have to say that I do know people who are anarchist, and others who are apolitical libertarians, who don’t vote. I think there should be a special punishment for such people, because they should fucking know better. At the very least they don’t get to complain, and I think I shall be reminding them of this over the next few years.

        • adam 8.1.1.1

          What are you saying Weka? Do you not understand an anarchist perspective? That voting itself keeps the system being the system – that any reform can and will be twisted to suit the interests elites. Anarchist, some, not all – see elections as a distraction and a hindrance to freedom. Personally all the time people waste on them they could spend helping each other and smashing up the instruments of the state that just don’t work. Like housing New Zealand, WINZ, IRD, or the courts. But no, lets waste energy on elections, then lets sit on our hands and complain about it for the next 3 years.What a wonderful way to go sleep walking into totalitarianism.

          • karol 8.1.1.1.1

            I was all for anarchism in my younger days, and the idea that it was all about change on the ground, by people working collaboratively in a network of groups. I was particularly into anarcho-syndicalism – read Kropotkin, Emma Goldman, and more.

            Those with the most power can always smash such grassroots efforts.

            Then along came neoliberalism. I learned that, in the face of such brutal power, it needs both bottom up initiatives and a state that is as democratic as possible.

            The state can be evil, but it also can provide protection from the wealthy and powerful, and destructive militarism. With pressure from below, it can be moved towards an organisation that works for the least powerful. Without the state, it’s just every group and/or individual for themselves in the face of the ruthless, greedy and power-hungry.

            It’s about power. And not voting, just enables the more powerful to keep taking us towards totalitarianism.

          • bad12 8.1.1.1.2

            Adam you are amusing in a child like sort of way, my view of Anarchist’s is that most i have met are either that, child-like or really really lazy,

            So tell us Adam if you would, does your Anarchy extend to refusing to use any of the States services, i mean as a true Anarchist you would of course refuse to support either the State or the Capitalist system in any way shape or form right,

            i am really amused with your little nod to ‘smashing up the instruments of the State’ but tell us all Adam, what actual physical action have you taken this year or any other for that matter to ‘smash up the instruments of the state’,

            HousingNZ seems to work for 67 odd 1000 of us and the kids right now and i would just love to hear why you think that such an organization doesn’t work, along with those other organs of State that you refer to,

            Strangely enough of all the groups of people i have observed, it is those who claim the status of anarchy that do the least to achieve any semblance of that anarchy, mostly it seems anarchists are the idle young too lazy to lift a finger to achieve any goal let alone a political or apolitical one…

            • adam 8.1.1.1.2.1

              Free thought is such a scary thing. Democracy is suppose to be hard work. Not this notional thing you seem to think is democracy.

              One who challenges you authoritarian types always gets abused – joy poppet joy. Funny how your rational arguments, fall to personal attacks and notions of superiority.

              I’m just saying you burn this energy, to vote – and it’s not really getting you anywhere. Small victories and we still march to the beat of conservatism and reactionary politics.

              We have hay many living in poverty, how many homeless, how many people living in substandard temporary accommodation. Yeah voting has really helped.

              And no I’m not a mythical thinking or lazy one for that matter – I don’t believe in mysticism nor the “invisible hand of the marketplace” or “dialectical materialism”

              I didn’t say smash the state, I said smash the instruments of the state. I’ll let you think through what that may mean for you.

              What have I done for the last 30 years – Not lived in FEAR nor as a SLAVE that’s what I’ve done for the last 30 years and so have all my fellow anarchist.

              Peace out

              • bad12

                Having read your answer twice Adam i would say the only thing smashed in your 30 years of Anarchy has been your brain…

              • karol

                Democracy is suppose to be hard work.

                Exactly. And that’s why some people are active party members – they don’t just vote, but actively participate in the section of candidates and policies; in campaigning etc.

                And others, as well as voting participate in campaigns on various issues, enraging engaging with elected representatives and the public in various ways.

                So much easier to sit at home and moan about the undemocratic voting system.

                Edit: h/t CV below: heh 🙂

                • Colonial Viper

                  “participate in campaigns on various issues, enraging with elected representatives and the public in various ways.

                  Heh karol 😈

          • weka 8.1.1.1.3

            “Do you not understand an anarchist perspective?”

            I do understand it, and agree with some of it, just not absolutely, and not when it comes to voting. Probably something to do with long term disability and being dependent on WINZ. Tell me how I should eat while the anarchists are smashing the state? And after they’ve smashed the state for that matter.

            Likewise, as a woman, I’m curious to know how you will see to my safety and wellbeing while the anarchists are getting rid of the police force and the justice system.

            It’s not that I don’t agree that those things need to change, and it’s not like I think our current form of collectively organising is going to effect that change, but as someone mentions below, it’s much easier to make change with a liberal govt than a right wing one.

            I also fail to see how people not voting helps smash the state. By all means make change, but let’s be pragmatic too. Not voting out of ideology (as opposed to not voting when it would make any kind of difference) is not something we can afford, and frankly I think it’s fucking selfish.

            • karol 8.1.1.1.3.1

              Likewise, as a woman, I’m curious to know how you will see to my safety and wellbeing while the anarchists are getting rid of the police force and the justice system.

              Very good point. I think life for women ain’t that great under either an authoritarian government or with no state regulated infrastructure. The organisation that provides benefits the most people, is a very democratically organised state, with on-going democratic processes.

              • weka

                I’d also like to acknowledge that some or even much of my safety and wellbeing comes from priviledge that not all women in NZ experience. Likewise I know women who have degrees of wellbeing and safety that are pretty much permanently denied me. I have no idea where on a scale of democracy we fit. Sometimes I think we are incredibly fortunate, other times I can’t believe how backward we sill are.

          • muzza 8.1.1.1.4

            Adam, I understand the point you’re trying to get across. and agree with you.

            Most of the self styled on this site, believe that the system can be changed by “participation”, which is too naive for words!

            The low turn outs, are a sign that people no longer care to buy into the decayed, filthy sham of so called “democracy”, what NZ has is no such thing!

            People need to stop voting, because if they are making a conscious choice to do so, then perhaps they are thinking just enough, and could be reaching a juncture in their journey, that there is “more” they need to do, be it forget the establishment entirely and just get on with life, or perhaps in some cases, actually get cracking with what will allow them to survive, when the current rotten system finally, nakedly exposes itself!

            This pipe dream that somehow the attacks on humanity can be stymied, or circumvented by voting, are understandable desperation, from those who have got no idea what else to do!

            Forget the abuse etc, the self styled can’t compute anything which it has not been, “taught”,

            • weka 8.1.1.1.4.1

              “Most of the self styled on this site, believe that the system can be changed by “participation”, which is too naive for words!”

              Not really sure what self styled means in that context, but speaking for myself, I don’t believe that participation in govt elections will change the system. I do believe that having as left wing a govt as we can manage will make it much easier to effect real change and to do the real work.

              All not voting does currently is allow NACT to completely fuck our country beyond belief. It’s not like we have anything even close to useful numbers to make not voting useful (in the sense of detatching from the system).

      • adam 8.1.2

        I believe you and state worshipping like you, are the problem. As your aggressive answer shows. What you done lately to help people? Your way or the highway – get over yourself . Unreconstructed Marxist are we?

        Please tell me once, just once in the last 30 years when voting has been worth while. People don’t get a say – they get an illusion of a say. Live in your lala land of votes mean something.

        I’d like working people not to vote – and not support a corrupt system.

        • karol 8.1.2.1

          And your idea of anarchism achieves what? There’s been plenty into it since before I was young. I knew many young people who were into the idea and the practice. And it has achieved what in the last 30 years?

        • bad12 8.1.2.2

          Adam Adam you are so mistaken about not getting ‘a say’, we all get one a say that is, the fact that more people say toward a notion or a system that you do not agree with means that they having the numbers do in the main have the bigger say in how that system will deliver to us the lives we lead,

          Please tell us all what you or any other anarchist has achieved of a worthwhile nature in the past 100 years in New Zealand,

          Working people Adam by the very act of working do support the system whether it is corrupt or not, tell us tho wont you what does this corruption of the system encompass,

          Better still, tell us all of all the actions you have recently taken not to ‘help’ people, but instead, to further your anarchist ideals…

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.2.3

          “Please tell me once, just once in the last 30 years when voting has been worth while.”

          When we kept a right wing neo-liberal shit called Don Brash out of office.

          You really haven’t thought through fuck all, have you? You’re a breaker, not a builder. You think big ideas about tearing stuff down… And then what?

          Worse than useless, you’re actually full of crappy, badly conceived ideas that for some reason, you think are just great. Wake the fuck up. You don’t speak for the “working people”.

          Who do you speak for?

          • adam 8.1.2.3.1

            Wow so no Don Brash and John Key is different how? – What a great victory.

            I don’t speak for working people I’m not so arrogant viper. I’m not a Marxist. Your the one who twists. And I have never said break or tear stuff down – read what I wrote, I said “smash” look up a dictionary, it’s one of those words that has more than one meaning.

            And please authoritarian state worshipers- keep up the personal abuse – so I’m reminded at least, that you don’t do inclusive and community.

            And Viper like most Anarchist – I’m not going to tell you how to think, or what outcome is best. I will say however, keep an open mind, keep thinking, being critical and to be constructive in your skepticism.

            Karol I don’t just sit at home and complain about unfair voting – I just don’t use a party as a vehicle to do political action. I do engage with the system, with a lot of nose holding- I’d like to see another system in place so I’m very active trying to change it. Some of that I’m afraid is just keeping people afloat, so they get to the next day as this (neo)con economics is quite destructive.

            Peace out

            • Colonial Viper 8.1.2.3.1.1

              I don’t speak for working people I’m not so arrogant viper.

              Really? Except you started off this thread by saying:

              Have the social democrats in this country realized that working people are sick of you do nothing wet liberalism?

              Next, you clearly demonstrate your ignorance of NZ politics by saying:

              Wow so no Don Brash and John Key is different how? – What a great victory.

              Which proves you really are a dickhead. Key is 10x better than Brash would ever be, as a NZ PM.

              And please authoritarian state worshipers- keep up the personal abuse – so I’m reminded at least, that you don’t do inclusive and community.

              Oh, setting the standard for etiquette and politeness in online conversation now? What fucking kind of “anarchist” are you? In fact, you sound like one of those right wingers who can’t think of any other points to make.

              And Viper like most Anarchist – I’m not going to tell you how to think, or what outcome is best. I will say however, keep an open mind, keep thinking, being critical and to be constructive in your skepticism.

              More BS pretence from you.

              You started off this whole thread by encouraging people not to vote and by saying that people should see participating in democracy as a waste of time. Seems to me like you are telling people how to think and what to think.

              So you are dishonest as well as ignorant.

    • Bill 8.2

      Dunno where this will land in the thread. Coupla points. As pointed out by a commentator some time back and that I gave a bit of thought to before agreeing on – whatever the political organisation is that people employ – that is ‘the state’. But there is a big difference between a centralised, bureaucratic state apparatus and a state of democracy.

      Meanwhile, these demands made on anarchists to somehow show what they have done are fairly disingenuous. The political space as well as all resources and their distribution are under the control of ‘less than democratic’ actors and institutions. There is no, to very little space within which to act democratically. (You might want to think about that – that we have economic and political systems claiming the mantle of democracy that so blatantly act against democracy) Any real world examples of democracy in a fundamentally un/anti- democratic environment can only be very limited. But that’s not to say that democracy somehow doesn’t work or would lead to a worse state of affairs than we have under social democratic systems. It’s also stupid to suggest (Bad 12) that an anarchist should refuse to eat food or use whatever it is that is produced and distributed via the undemocratic systems they are critical of.

      Also interesting that there is a penchant to view a process of change as involving full on conflict led by some minority (ie, what about my safety while the anarchists….). That’s indicative of authoritarian leftism and the vanguardists of the Trot/Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist tradition. Since anarchy is first and foremost democratic, there can be no vanguard going off on their own to cause mayhem. If there was, then that would be the death of any anarchist/democratic aspirations right there.

      Anyway….

      • weka 8.2.1

        “Also interesting that there is a penchant to view a process of change as involving full on conflict led by some minority (ie, what about my safety while the anarchists….). That’s indicative of authoritarian leftism and the vanguardists of the Trot/Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist tradition. Since anarchy is first and foremost democratic, there can be no vanguard going off on their own to cause mayhem. If there was, then that would be the death of any anarchist/democratic aspirations right there.”

        I think you are conflating a few things there Bill. My comment about safety and wellbeing was genuine but the bit about what will I eat while the anarchists smash the state was facetious, and a direct response to adam’s approach. So take that one up with him I think.

        My main issue with anarchism is that I’ve not seen a credible theory on how you would get all people to agree to anarchism. So what to do about those that are anti-democratic/anarchist, or just incapable? In that context the safety/wellbeing issues pops into the foreground. At an ideological level anarchism makes sense. At a pragmatic level, I simply don’t see how to get there from here.

        I’m not completely opposed to my giving up wellbeing/safety to varying degrees, but it has to be useful and meaningful. In the absence of anarchist theory and strategy on how to get there, there doesn’t seem to be much point.

        I’m open to being persuaded 🙂

        • Bill 8.2.1.1

          I’ve not seen a credible theory on how you would get all people to agree to anarchism. So what to do about those that are anti-democratic/anarchist, or just incapable?

          All that anarchism is, is democracy. That’s it. There’s nothing else to it. So all things being equal if people wanted or demanded control over those things in life that affected them, then they would participate in the decisions around those things. And if they didn’t, they wouldn’t.

          But at the moment we’re not given any option at all as the political and economic spaces where decisions occur are dominated, tightly controlled and defended by fundamentally undemocratic and anti-democratic actors/ institutions etc.

          Best I can suggest is to make a punt at developing parallel and deeply democratic decision making bodies whenever and wherever possible. At the moment, those spaces possibly (definitely most obviously) appear only in activist realms and even then, only occasionally. And when they do, the authoritarian left (not exclusively, but more so than the slightly less authoritarian social democratic left) routinely sets about trashing and closing such spaces down. Now, what to do about those incapable or so stupid as to cleave to undemocratic and anti-democratic ways?

          My tactic has been a simple one – to encourage democracy where possible and disengage from fuckwits. And if anyone has a better tactic…one that might actually present a widespread solution…then I’m all ears and attention.

  9. Puckish Rogue 9

    I’m not voting because there is no one I want to vote for, theres no one I feel is worth voting for so I’m abstaining

    • Pasupial 9.1

      PR

      That’s mighty encouraging of you. You seem to be saying to those who read your words:

      Anyone who doesn’t vote is as big a Puck-wit as PR himself!

  10. Anjum only has to work half as hard as she does for the good causes she champions. She will be a first class councilor. Unfortunately we are in Cambridge where with one exception it rank Tory against rank Tory, So just one vote in Waipa. But will have Left votes in the Hospital Board.

  11. Anne 11

    Hi mickysavage
    I need a bit of help re- Waitemata Health Board. I’ve voted for Sandra Coney and Pat Booth but I need a few more names. Any recommendations?

  12. Martin 12

    In Wellington much of what passes as manifesto is so much
    polished PR spin that actually says nothing!

    No wonder turn out is so low!

  13. Martin 13

    In Wellington much of what passes as candidate manifesto is so much
    polished PR spin that actually says nothing!

    No wonder turn out is so low!

  14. Tanz 14

    why bother voting. we know zero about the candidates, and what does progressive really mean?
    Hard left Minto. Greens.

    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      1) You vote to participate in the democratic process of setting the rules and budgets which affect all of us.

      2) There is plenty of information out there on the candidates, but you have to show some initiative to be engaged and do some research for yourself.

      3) Progressive means – political postures and attitudes which espouse a fundamental equality and respect for all human beings, as well as the communities and environment that they live in, and a willingness to make the societal changes necessary to reflect that respect.

  15. Tanz 15

    So, in other words, break the back on the middle class, make everyone poor, then no longer despise the middle class, as they are now the poor.

    That really makes sense. Equality is a fallacy. Without the middle class, there would be an even bigger gap between haves and have nots.

    • karol 15.1

      What are you talking about? :frown:

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        Tanz is spouting bullshit lines from the US political environment. Fortunately, NZers can see what is happening in the USA and it is not an example to follow.

        ‘Blue collar’ workers were the target of neolib economic “restructuring” in the 80’s and 90’s. For the last 5-10 years however, white collar workers and other professionals who saw themselves as above that (and often didn’t lift a finger to help those who lost factory and labouring jobs), are now finding themselves the targets. Healthcare professionals, public defence lawyers, teachers, junior and middle management, technical professionals.

        In essence, now that the 1% has sucked the bottom 50% dry, they have moved on to targetting those who reside in the 51% to 90% percentiles.

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