Open mike 07/01/2025

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 7th, 2025 - 47 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

47 comments on “Open mike 07/01/2025 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Dennis Frank 1
    7 January 2025 at 6:53 am

    Palestinian government copies Israel with media clamp-down:

    According to the official Palestinian news agency, Wafa, Al Jazeera network has been deemed in violation of Palestinian laws and regulations and its operations suspended temporarily. The stoppage order applies to all work by its journalists and staff. The network is accused of broadcasting "inciting materials" and "misleading reports" that "provoke strife and interfere in Palestinian internal affairs," Wafa said.

    Israel's parliament voted to close Al Jazeera in Israel last May saying it threatened national security. Israeli police then raided a Jerusalem hotel room used by Al Jazeera for broadcasting and some of its equipment was confiscated. The channel's Arabic staff relocated to the West Bank.

    In September, Israeli troops ordered the Al Jazeera office in Ramallah in the West Bank to close for 45 days claiming it was being used to support terrorist activities.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgmxzyrmn8o

    Due to reporting Hamas views, apparently. Palestinian factionalism is quite a thing too.

    On July 23, 2024, Member of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee and Minister of Foreign Affairs Wang Yi attended in Beijing the closing ceremony of the reconciliation talks of Palestinian factions and witnessed the signing of the Beijing Declaration on Ending Division and Strengthening Palestinian National Unity by 14 Palestinian factions.

    https://www.mfa.gov.cn/mfa_eng/wjbzhd/202407/t20240723_11458790.html

    Looks like none of the protagonists trust each other to honour the agreement: that Chinese govt official report of the achievement of Palestinian unity is being contradicted by subsequent events. The governance of Palestine is based on a fractured state mostly recognised by other countries as sovereign, while realpolitik provides ongoing factions:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Palestine

    • SPC 1.1
      7 January 2025 at 10:09 am

      The factions are listed here.

      https://jessemarks.substack.com/p/palestinian-factions-meet-in-china

      The Fatah faction of the PLO, lead by PA President Abbas, is obviously seeking Israeli consent to be on the ground in Gaza on IDF withdrawal.

      Hamas (74)
      Opposition (58)

      PLO (50) Fatah (45) PFLP (3) DFLP (1) PPP (1)

      PNI (2)
      Third Way (2)
      Independents (4)

      are those in the PLC (last election 2006).

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Legislative_Council

    • Jenny 1.2
      7 January 2025 at 12:22 pm

      This schism goes back a long way.

      Palestinian nationalists look to the conservative Muslim ruling elites in neighbouring Arab countries as their natural allies, only to be betrayed again and again.

      This has been the PA position.

      Hamas originally founded as a Muslim religious charity, is closer to the Arab street.

      These differences were starkly highlighted during the Syrian civil war..

      Hamas backed the popular resistance to the Assad regime and paid a price for it.

      https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20250106-assad-regime-executed-dozens-of-hamas-members-without-trial-report-reveals/

      The PA backed Assad, Palestinian mercenaries aligned with the PA helped Assad put down the rebellion.

      https://inkstickmedia.com/what-does-assads-collapse-mean-for-syrias-palestinian-armed-groups/

      • Jenny 1.2.1
        7 January 2025 at 1:59 pm

        The Arab Street

        From Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

        The Arab Street

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_street

        The Arab street (Arabic: الشارع العربي, ash-shāriʿ al-ʿarabī) is an expression referring to the spectrum of public opinion in the Arab World, often as opposed or contrasted to the opinions of Arab governments.[1] In some contexts it refers more specifically to the lower socioeconomic strata of Arab society…..

        ……Later commentators added the "Arab" and eventually dropped the scare quotes to create the current usage, which became widespread in American media during the First Palestinian Intifada in 1987….

        The PA's courting of the Muslim elites has led the PA to become isolated from the Arab Street. As well as being reliant on the right wing rulers of the neighbouring Arab countries, the PA is also dependent on the Israelis, as a result many Palestinians regard the PA as a junior client of Israel.

        25 year veteran Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh, was a Palestinian icon even before she was murdered by an Israeli sniper in May 2022 while doing her job covering an Israeli raid. At her funeral procession her mourners were beaten with clubs by the Israeli police. Since Shireen's death at the hands of the Israelis, murals of her image have sprung up across the West Bank and in Gaza.|

        The PA was already isolated and despised by many Palestinians, even before the banning of Al Jazeera, this move will only make it worse.

        As Dennis Frank notes at the top of this thread, the PA is copying in the West Bank what the Israelis are doing in Israel proper.

        From the Times of Israel:

        Foreign Press Association condemns ‘vindictive and politically motivated’ attacks on media, warns that legislation could ‘undermine democratic values’

        By Sam Sokol

        https://www.timesofisrael.com/mks-advance-controversial-bill-to-privatize-or-shutter-kan-public-broadcaster/

        27 November 2024, 9:23 pm

        …..the bill met sharp pushback in the Knesset, with Opposition leader Yair Lapid assailing it as “an attack on Israeli democracy” and freedom of expression, a sentiment shared by the Foreign Press Association…..

        The government “decided to do what dark regimes do — first crush the free media and then go and deal with everything else,” Lapid warned.

        The FPA said that after shutting down the Qatar-based Al Jazeera network’s operations in Israel, the government was now targeting Israeli outlets in a way that appears “vindictive and politically motivated.” It also cited the cabinet’s recent call to boycott the Haaretz daily….

        …..The bill also drew criticism from the Union of Journalists in Israel, which earlier this week accused the government of “weakening public broadcasting and restricting press freedom”; as well as the Attorney General’s Office, which argued on Sunday that it sent a “clear and grave” message that “criticism of the government or broadcast of content that is not favorable to the government may lead to measures against the media.”

  2. KJT 2
    7 January 2025 at 7:39 am

    Interesting Yanis Varoufakis.

    Star Trek: A humanist communist manifesto for our times – UNHERD – Yanis Varoufakis

    That Star Trek depicts a communist society, without of course calling it that, is crystal clear.

    Of course the federation is a Humanist Free Communist society. Not an Authoritarian Communist Oligarchy.

    Contrasted with the Ferangi. A "winner takes all" Capitalist society.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    7 January 2025 at 7:55 am

    When the personal is political, you get boundary issues:

    During his speech on the marae, leader of the Labour Māori Caucus Willie Jackson apologised to Dame Tariana for her treatment during the Foreshore and Seabed controversy. "My own personal view is that I think Labour should consider an apology in the future to her whānau and iwi because I think what happened to her was tragic in many ways," he told RNZ.

    Jackson said there should have been a way for her to give her view while retaining her ministerial position within Labour. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/538304/labour-should-apologise-to-dame-tariana-turia-s-whanau-willie-jackson-at-tangi

    That would have required sufficient finesse from Helen Clark, who was PM & Labour leader at the time. To what extent does her failure reflect a personal antipathy could be germane in explaining it. Media reportage featured tacit acceptance of the necessity of evading relevant basic principles of stake-holding: too hard was the standard default. He's right that separatism was a mistake for Labour but I suspect Helen won't apologise.

    Hipkins must now contemplate his leadership stance. Willie has too much mana to ignore. Any formal apology ought to address the guts of the issue that caused Turia's resignation – particularly the moral dimension and our collective rights. Commons ethos is shared, whilst tradition divides Maori from Pakeha on a shared rights based..

    • Binders full of women 3.1
      7 January 2025 at 8:39 am

      Three Prime Ministers attended her tangi — English, Hipkins, and Luxon. Unfortunately they were banned from speaking. Clarke would have known she was auto-banned due to mysogny… or maybe she was just unable to attend.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.1
        7 January 2025 at 8:55 am

        Getting 3 ex-PMs turning up testifies to the mana of the woman, eh? I never met her back in the mid-1960s when she lived in a house in our cul-de-sac in Wanganui East but my mother did become friends with her and told me about a particular conversation when I was 15 or 16.

        "I was talking with that nice young Maori woman again and she told me she was considering going into politics. I told her she ought to!" My mum was in the Wanganui chapter of Altrusa (a global women's organisation) and served as president a year later. About a decade back I wrote to Tariana reminding her of this conversation while suggesting that it was time for her & Pita to transcend their current fraught situation in TMP by switching leadership (which they did). Tariana sent me a letter in reply which I've kept, acknowledging her friendship with Mum and expressing a few warm feelings. Sometimes such serendipitous contacts alchemise cultural developments – all part of our common humanity.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1.1.1
          7 January 2025 at 10:35 am

          Three Prime Ministers attended her tangi — English, Hipkins, and Luxon.

          Getting 3 ex-PMs turning up testifies to the mana of the woman, eh?

          "3 ex-PMs"? smiley Tell us more – Seymour's palace coup running ahead of schedule?

          • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1.1
            7 January 2025 at 11:18 am

            Ah, correction valid. I ought not tacitly file Lux into the has-been category too soon… smiley

        • alwyn 3.1.1.2
          7 January 2025 at 10:40 am

          "3 ex-PMs". Well I see English and Hipkins were there but who is the third "ex-PM" to be present? Was Bolger there? I can't see any of the others bothering to attend where they were clearly not going to be allowed to speak.

          Edit. DMK. snap!

    • Incognito 3.2
      7 January 2025 at 10:43 am

      Arguably, politics is preventing, mitigating, resolving, balancing, correcting, and compensating conflict and disputes in mutually agreed and non-violent ways. Most of your comment is moot and redundant, as per usual.

    • SPC 3.3
      7 January 2025 at 10:51 am

      It was not a mistake to note that a Maori first position did not belong in Labour, but in an independent party.

      Clark has nothing to apologise for. Nor Turia in leaving.

      Public domain commons is a Labour default setting, that Maori have their article 2 claims is also on point.

      It also lead to National accepting whanau ora and UNDRIP being signed (and the end of the Brash within National campaign against Maori seats).

      • Dennis Frank 3.3.1
        7 January 2025 at 11:23 am

        It was not a mistake to note that a Maori first position did not belong in Labour

        I don't recall her advocating Labour adopt any such position, so maybe that's your take on her stance at the time. Indigenous people came first, as a general principle, but that doesn't mean privilege via Te Tiriti over & above what the courts have ruled, does it? Perhaps you could clarify…

      • weka 3.3.2
        7 January 2025 at 11:57 am

        "haters and wreckers" requires an apology.

          • Anne 3.3.2.1.1
            7 January 2025 at 4:21 pm

            From my recollection, both Clark and Turia felt betrayed by the other. It was as simple as that. My understanding from a former Labour MP: the Labour Govt. decided to go with legal advice which was to more or less 'leave things as they are'. I don't recall the actual details. Turia not unnaturally saw it as a smack in the face for Maori.

            It was one of those occasions where you were damned if you did and damned if you didn't. I had sympathy for both sides.

        • Kat 3.3.2.2
          7 January 2025 at 5:18 pm

          So does calling Jacinda Ardern a "Nazi" on RNZ………

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.3.2.2.1
            7 January 2025 at 5:45 pm

            Asked if she believed that Ardern had Nazi sympathies, Turia said: "I certainly believe that she's a socialist."

            "Nazi and socialist, the two don't necessarily go hand in hand," Hay responded.

            "Well, I don't know so much," Turia said.

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-convoy-protest-dame-tariana-turias-bizarre-interview-claim-on-jacinda-ardern/5E73EW6PWON6HBIAG3SIOQZTW4/

            • Anne 3.3.2.2.1.1
              7 January 2025 at 6:15 pm

              From the link:

              The interview took a bizarre turn when Turia recalled footage she claimed to have seen of the PM " almost" performing a Nazi salute.

              "I have no confidence in her, I've seen a video of her that was on TV a while ago where she was doing almost a 'Heil Hitler' salute, as a young socialist."

              A moment of silence followed the comment, before Hay asked: "Are you serious?"

              "I'm deadly serious," Turia responded.

              That tells me Turia was a bit of a conspiratorialist. She also accused Helen Clark of deliberately setting her up when she was Prime Minister. That was the occasion she wanted to slip out of Premier House after meeting with Clark unseen by the waiting press gang. Helen told her to get down on the floor of the car. Clark didn't know a press photographer would run up to the moving car and take a photo of her on he floor. According to Turia at the time, she did know.

              Yes. she deserves all the accolades for what she did for her people, but that doesn't mean she didn't have some big faults too.

              I don't agree with Willie Jackson. Helen Clark did or said nothing to Tariana Turia which warrants an apology.

              • Dennis Frank …
                7 January 2025 at 6:42 pm

                Helen Clark did or said nothing to Tariana Turia which warrants an apology.

                Then why is Willie asking for one?? Whether Hipkins supports him depends on any objective evidence as basis, and you may be right that there ain't none, but Willie doesn't have a track record as a showboater so perhaps he represents a general Maori political view on the saga.

                Or it could be personal antipathy & the story about the set-up provides a plausible reason (even if bizarre) – but that isn't objective evidence. We'll await other Maori views of his suggestion, I guess, and if they aren't forthcoming Hipkins will likely ignore it…

                • Anne …
                  8 January 2025 at 9:36 am

                  That's the one Incognito.

                  Interesting Helen Clark did not tell her to get down on to the seat. I only saw a TV interview. It would have been TV1 and, not surprisingly, they went with Tariana's claim she had been told to "get down on the seat or the floor – not sure which.

                  • alwyn …
                    8 January 2025 at 7:27 pm

                    "Helen Clark did not tell her to get down on to the seat"

                    No Helen Clark says that she did not tell her to do so. Tariana says that Helen Clark did just that.

                    Who you believe is up to you but they can't both be right. You choose to believe Helen. I happen to believe Tariana on this occasion. We are never going to be sure though are we?

                    • Kat …
                      8 January 2025 at 8:52 pm

                      Well then what do you think your belief is worth…in the big picture….I would say zero on this platform….I know that I am sure of what I am sure of……

            • weka 3.3.2.2.1.2
              7 January 2025 at 9:40 pm

              wow, that explains quite a lot about Turia, that she sees socialism as akin to fascism. Remarkable.

              • Kat …
                8 January 2025 at 6:54 pm

                If you ever get the opportunity to talk with Karyn Hay you can ask her what was spoken live…….what is apparent is how misinformed Tariana was and her conflating progressive socialism with Nazism and the seabed/foreshore protest with a global pandemic, which is akin to wartime and warrants strict response to save lives, says a lot about now easily some people are suckered into the realms of conspiracy theories………Tariana has passed on now and may her soul rest in peace…..

    • SPC 3.4
      7 January 2025 at 1:06 pm

      In 2005 leading the Maori Party contesting the election, she followed the example of Matiu Rata (former Maori Affairs minister), who left Labour to form Mana Matuhake in 1980. It later became part of the Alliance (till 2005, but Alliance was an empty shell after the 2002 election).

      Hone Harawira left the Maori Party to form the Mana Party/Mana Movement in 2011. They merged back into the Maori Party in 2020.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana_Movement

  4. SPC 4
    7 January 2025 at 1:29 pm

    The right wing opine articulated here, not just the bill, but C of C do over of the Treaty in legislation.

    Typically its

    Article 1 ceded sovereignty to the Crown
    Article 2 secured property rights for Māori
    Article 3 conferred citizenship on all

    *The courts have introduced the notion of the Treaty as a partnership (the word is nowhere to be found in the Treaty)

    The elephant too big for some to see, a treaty involves two parties.

    The 2nd article refers to chieftainship over their lands, not just property rights.

    The UN defers to the wording of treaties in the indigenous language.

    https://assets.nationbuilder.com/taxpayers/pages/13204/attachments/original/1736115626/Ruth_Richardson_-_Treaty_Principles_submission.pdf?1736115626

    • Gillian 4.1
      8 January 2025 at 5:20 pm

      yup, the English version is just a draft for english speakers. Rangatira signed the Maori version. "Co-governance" is what was signed up for.

  5. Ad 5
    7 January 2025 at 2:03 pm

    Really good to see Starmer and now Macron pushing back hard today against the lies from Musk.

    2025 really is going to be a fight to the death for active democracy, so it's great to see the voices of those remaining leaders still sticking it right back.

  6. Incognito 6
    7 January 2025 at 2:30 pm

    I wonder if astroturf armies have been busy swamping the system while others have been too distracted to bother.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/538358/unprecedented-number-of-submissions-on-treaty-principles-bill

      • Incognito 6.1.1
        7 January 2025 at 4:09 pm

        Melanie Nelson has written a detailed guide on how to make a submission on the Regulatory Standards Bill but suggests that some of it can be transferred to a submission on the Treaty Principles Bill.

        I have worked with a group of concerned citizens to write an Explainer and Submission Guide for the Regulatory Standards Bill, which may be helpful to some individuals or organisations wishing to make a submission. It offers various approaches and levels of submissions that could be valuable, including transferring submissions on the Treaty Principles Bill.

        https://melanienelson.substack.com/p/will-the-regulatory-standards-bill

        For a simple (!) guide on making a submission, go here: OK fine, what submissions do I have to make FFS?! By Emily Writes.

        • Karolyn_IS 6.1.1.1
          7 January 2025 at 7:06 pm

          Thanks. I did submitted in opposition to the Treaty Principles Bill today and am planning to start on the Regulatory Standards Bill. I had been thinking I will have some overlap in submissions to the 2 Bills.

          • Incognito 6.1.1.1.1
            7 January 2025 at 7:33 pm

            In my opinion, the Regulatory Standards Bill is the more dangerous one also because it’s more likely to get support from ACT’s coalition partners beyond the Select Committee stage.

            • Karolyn_IS 6.1.1.1.1.1
              7 January 2025 at 8:15 pm

              It looks that way. The content of articles you linked to in your post on this Bill were pretty convincing.

              It's very worrying, along with the current goings on in the US: Trump's post election maneuverings, his buddy Elon Musk looking like he's trying to influence politics & elections in other countries. It feels like plutocrats internationally making a big power grab.

              • Incognito …
                7 January 2025 at 8:31 pm

                Yes, exactly. The Regulatory Standards Bill will remove many hurdles & regulations for Money Men from anywhere to set up and/or buy up business and/or property. It’ll open the door in NZ to global feudalism of unprecedented scale with Stasi-like powers through their increasing control of technology and influence on the internet and how it’s used.

            • Obtrectator 6.1.1.1.1.2
              7 January 2025 at 11:13 pm

              Yes. And the meejah are helping it along – perhaps as a result of a few words having been whispered into certain ears – by virtually ignoring it, and diverting all their coverage to the increasingly nugatory Treaty Principles Bill (reaction to which, however, has the advantage – to them – of generating lots of colourful images and quotes).