Open mike 07/02/2023

55 comments on “Open mike 07/02/2023 ”

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1. SPC 1

   7 February 2023 at 6:31 am

   In the world of Twitter/social media sound-bite commentary …

   A person says they liked being one of the boys in their youth at age 12, but was glad she was not influenced to consider being a transgender male because of this. Those who support her get called transphobic.

   Another person says she was a tomboy who became a butch lesbian. Those who support her (might still) get called feminists who are challenging the religious heritage and or natural order of civilisation …

   In the real world males and females have a diversity, the more literary/artistically inclined male and activity inclined female are operating within human norms, just not median part of the herd.

   There is a risk of imposing a stereotype/norm on individuals – whether a conservative one or a pseudo-progressive PC one. The imposition of a expected conformity/norm is not progressive.

   Support for a person who says they liked being one of the boys in their youth, but was glad she was not influenced to consider being a transgender male is fine. Support for a person once a "tomboy", now butch lesbian, is also OK.

   That should be the easy part.

   The next easy part should be limiting access to self ID as "transgender women" to those who have not committed violence against women.

   And the other easy part is to note the evidence as to early medical intervention causing problems.

   Both the safety of women and the principle of not doing harm with medical treatments being of some importance.
   • Visubversa 1.1

     7 February 2023 at 8:40 am

     I don't see on what basis any part of womanhood should be open to any man who opens his mouth and utters the magical incantation "I identify as".

     I can understand why – 50 odd years ago when sex between men was unlawful, some gay men internalised their homophobia and risked their lives to have surgery to mimic the sex characteristics of women, and lived as women from then on. I can understand why – in those more intolerant times, some butch lesbians disguised themselves as men in order to live safer lives.

     However, none of that is necessary in Aotearoa today.

     Bodily dysphorias of various kinds are a psychological problem and they should have psychological solutions and treatment. Instead – fueled by the demands of autogynephiliac men with deep pockets, society is being required to participate in the full time exercise of their paraphilia, and to normalise that behaviour a whole ideology of bodily disassociation has been created.
     • SPC 1.1.1

       7 February 2023 at 9:10 am

       I presume you reject Camile Paglia having the right of declare as a transgender man "because of her internalised homophobia" (she was the only out "lesbian in “her” graduate school).

       Did men really have "bottom half" surgery 50 years ago? Carmen Rupe never did and nor was there any reference to being a closet homophobe

       Calling transgender people as those with mental problems (to be managed as per aversion therapy for homosexuality I presume) or internalised homophobia/guilt over their sexuality, is just a repeat of the 1952 DSM approach.

       And it in no way explains the non binary etc. Or is that closet "bi-sexuality"?

       Trying to write a narrative which other humans have to conform to is like ordering children from a lab with the desired DNA programming and all. And then making a return (or placing into a treatment centre) when that does not work well enough.
       • weka 1.1.1.1

         7 February 2023 at 11:15 am

         I don't believe that being gender non-conforming is a mental health issue. But equally, I don't believe that people who identify as trans who have gender dysphoria, ie people who hate their bodies and can't resolve that, should be in charge of major societal and policy changes without taking into account all of society.

         The problem we have now is that AGP males have pushed this so far, along with liberals, that women are fighting back hard. Ten years ago, maybe even five years ago, if No Debate and self-ID hadn't happened, there would have been some accommodation, because most women care about others and seek a functional society for all. This is why we see large support for TW in women's spaces until it's clarified that this means any man who says they are a woman. But those days are gone. The sheer level of abuse directed at GC women demolished any chance.

         What we can hope for now is that the shit fight ends, women re-establish the right to women's space, and trans people set up their own spaces with support from liberal society. This would be a good outcome, one that many women would get behind. But the longer the war goes on, the less sympathy there will be. In places like the UK and the US there is a very real risk of a huge backlash against trans people, and that is on the gender activists and the liberals who were illiberal towards women.
         • Visubversa 1.1.1.1.1

           7 February 2023 at 12:04 pm

           As gender is a collection of sexist stereotypes – being non conforming to that is a sign of mental health!. The bodily dysphorias that demand the removal of healthy body parts, or chemical reversal of natural bodily processes do certainly require psychological treatment. It is a softwear problem – not a hardware problem.
       • Visubversa 1.1.1.2

         7 February 2023 at 12:00 pm

         They certainly did have "bottom surgery" back then. Carmen did not and the explanation was that the clients liked that. Most of the others did. I knew a number of them in Wellington in the 1970's and am Facebook friends with others today. They see themselves as "transheterosexual" but are still part of the Gay community because they are sexually attracted to men. The AGP men are the ones that hang around lesbian dating groups.
         • SPC 1.1.1.2.1

           7 February 2023 at 6:55 pm

           Most of the others? Really? G Beyer did, but she was of a later period (and she did so after discrimination against homosexuals – 1986 – was already over). Because she was as you put “transheterosexual”. Which sort of negates the line you used about these people being guilt ridden homosexuals.

           And it's "bottom half" surgery.

           There is the case of Mr Jenner a once heterosexual man who now identifies as “transheterosexual” (but without bottom half surgery).

           I suppose he might be called non binary and whose sexuality has become fluid (reminds me of one of those Sex in the City actors – many years married to a man and then partnering up with a lesbian).
   • weka 1.2

     7 February 2023 at 11:18 am

     The next easy part should be limiting access to self ID as "transgender women" to those who have not committed violence against women.

     The problem with this is that if TWAW, but suddenly only some TW are women, self-ID becomes meaningless. I'm good with that, but I think you will find that the gender activists aren't there yet.

     And beyond that, there's no way to predict which males will be violent towards women. This is part of why we have female only spaces to begin with. Denying access to women's spaces after women have been assaulted is abhorrent.
     • SPC 1.2.1

       7 February 2023 at 9:12 pm

       It's not about convincing activists, but asking government to make "considered" decisions

       For now there is this

       Nicola Sturgeon refused to say whether Bryson was a man or a woman.

       She said she did not have “enough information” to say either way, though she accepted it was “almost certainly the case” that Bryson was pretending to be trans.

       and

       Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has said it is “biological sex” which matters when it comes to protecting women-only spaces, including female prisons.

       https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,rishi-sunak-biological-sex-key-in-protecting-womenonly-spaces

       The principle of women's safety (a governments roles includes security/public safety as well as the rights of its citizens) being recognised is now in play.

       As Laila Harre once said when asked (replying to a letter) why she was focused on parental leave (support for women with jobs when they had children over those who did not), one good thing leads to other good things.
       • Ghostwhowalksnz 1.2.1.1

         8 February 2023 at 8:47 am

         Its not Sturgeons role to decide someones elses gender , nor yours

         Do you really want to be the 'pants police' checking them out after all you have joined the culture war, maybe a new badge and can model yourself on the Islamic religious police who enforce 'standards'

         We have seen all this before , is some Maori enough or black enough.
         It was also the catchcry of ‘safety’ which was used for segregation of schools , cinemas, housing etc in the US.

         the online pitchforks are very evident in comments on this situation
         • SPC 1.2.1.1.1

           8 February 2023 at 12:01 pm

           I guess we can place you in the absolutist self ID camp then …

           PS … the Scottish parliament has passed self ID legislation but it has been vetoed by the UK government led by Sunak. The Scottish government has decided to block the placement of those who have raped women from womens prisons.

           The case Sturgeon was questioned involved a man who raped a woman and then later chose self ID as a transgender woman.

           However, enjoy the cheap shot social media posturing as holier than thou on the issue (gaslighting).

           Do you dance?

           https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1622293940002066432?ref_src
           • Ghostwhowalksnz 1.2.1.1.1.1

             9 February 2023 at 7:46 am

             https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-08/reiby-detention-centre-sexual-abuse-730/101913320

             A 7.30 investigation can reveal three former female staff at Reiby have been convicted of sexual offences against detainees

             What say you to sexual abuse by women against boys in detention ? Surely its the person rather than the gender that is the issue

             Prisons unfortunately are rife for violence as many inmates have never known love and safety growing up , like you would have had.

             Its a breakdown in security that a violent woman could harm other women in jail. Thats all .

             Just like the above historical situation in Australia

             Im sure other violence by women against women happens often enough without gender being an issue for the cultural warriors to carry their digital pitchforks.

             Same happens in women only bars, which I have witnessed from a few doors away.
2. tc 2

   7 February 2023 at 8:33 am

   I see granny's clickbaiting a CGT piece 'why it failed'.

   Didnt realise we had one to fail.
   • Incognito 2.1

     7 February 2023 at 8:51 am

     ??
   • Graeme 2.2

     7 February 2023 at 9:26 am

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/the-front-page-capital-gains-tax-experts-still-want-it-so-could-this-issue-rise-from-the-dead/H66T3JMYARA5XFGY2NNZBMIIAM/

     That's downright weird coming from Granny. The article is a teaser for a podcast (will listen t it when I've got time) that has this,

     Despite this opposition, a recent poll conducted by Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand suggested that 72 per cent of accountants supported having a comprehensive capital gains tax as opposed to the evolving status quo.

     “I was at that conference when the vote was taken and I was surprised by the result,” says Nightingale.

     “What you had at that conference was a bunch of technical experts. And if you analyse this objectively and technically, the case for capital gains taxes is reasonably strong. It’s not perfect, but it’s reasonably strong. But I don’t think the experts will carry the day. We, experts, don’t have to get voted in by anybody. Politicians have to get voted in, so they have to judge the mood of the public.”

     Now, do accountants support a CGT because it's good for the collective economy, or because it'll be good for their personal economies?
3. weston 3

   7 February 2023 at 10:12 am

   The wild weather lately has had a calamitous effect on the vege garden the garlic simply withered and gave up the ghost, tomatoes came down with every blight and fungal disease known to man and in the orchard plums are non existent and the peachcrop harvest this year is gonna be four small jars preserved .A disastrous attack of some sort of mite or thrip has attacked the new growth on the citrus so no blossom and no mandarins or grapefruit next season alas .

   Still its an ill wind that blows nobody no good as they say and as far as other members of the plant family go trees , ferns ,shrubs ,native flora in general ive never seen this part of northland looking so verdant and lush .The tui round here are singing their heads off in appreciation !!
   • Robert Guyton 3.1

     7 February 2023 at 10:50 am

     Hope this cheers you up

     https://www.facebook.com/robert.guyton.77582/posts/pfbid02rUNZyLYuh7ridzXKsCHBBmswW12dFjZBZYKEHu3w8YjJWsUmNTqJqHoUqJZkWP2Sl
     • weston 3.1.1

       7 February 2023 at 11:13 am

       Ya lucky bugga Robert ! what sort of plums are those little ones an what will you do with them ?
       • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1

         7 February 2023 at 3:13 pm

         Hi Weston – we are fortunate indeed, it's been a boomer of a plum season (all of the fruits, in fact). This photo shows about a 5th of the total plum harvest; there are still a number of trees/varieties to pick; greengages, Victoria etc. The smaller plums in the photo (they aren't small in reality) are an unnamed/unknown "Southland" plum we "found" in an old farm orchard – never seen anything like them before and can't track down the name. We are selling them, gifting them, eating them and turning them into plum sauce. The big plums, bottom right, are not quite ripe yet; picking that tree (2 trees) will be fun! The first tree we harvested from, George Wilson Early, was loaded to groaning and necessitated multiple visits by grandchildren to clear Happy days!
         • Macro 3.1.1.1.1

           7 February 2023 at 4:12 pm

           Our George Wilson Early – a very old tree left over from a Plum orchard planted years before – blew over in a recent storm It was my go to for plum jam. The other plums here have suffered the same fate Weston describes above but here in the Coromandel. Just far too much rain (6 months in 30 days), and humidity. So fungal, insects, and birds have got the lot. Just nothing worth picking except the odd Omega which survived.
           • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1.1.1

             7 February 2023 at 4:58 pm

             Yeah, George Wilson make great jam and sauce! Sorry yours blew over. If the humidity ruined your plum crops, I guess you aren't celebrating a great peach season either!
           • Brigid 3.1.1.1.1.2

             7 February 2023 at 7:23 pm

             We've had the same bad luck in Northland. The only fruit that survived the wet – no plums, no peaches- were the grapes. Alas the wild turkeys found them.

             And the garden's produced next to nothing.

             Cows are fat though.
     • Patricia Bremner 3.1.2

       7 February 2023 at 1:03 pm

       A Cornucopia Robert. Enjoy the washing baskets in place of the horn of plenty .
       • Robert Guyton 3.1.2.1

         7 February 2023 at 5:04 pm

         Should've used the wicker laundry baskets, rather than the plastic, for the photo, but needs must; they were already filled with apples
     • roblogic 3.1.3

       7 February 2023 at 6:13 pm

       I harvested about 5kg of grapes today. About 50% of the crop was pillaged by sparrows, silvereyes, a thrush, wasps, bees, ants, even a bumblebee was getting into the action.

       There are about 1000 rotting grapes left on the vine and another 1000 squished all over the ground.

       A few days ago, its was still gloomy and wet and the grapes were still not ripe. But a couple of days sunshine and they sweeten up. You know they are ready when you hear a gang of 16 sparrows going mental on sugar outside my bedroom window
       • weka 3.1.3.1

         7 February 2023 at 8:30 pm

         what will you do with the grapes?

         Gang of 16 sparrows, sounds like a poem.
         • roblogic 3.1.3.1.1

           7 February 2023 at 10:24 pm

           Share them around family & friends. Nobody I know buys the expensive Chilean stuff
   • Belladonna 3.2

     7 February 2023 at 4:41 pm

     We've had (Auckland) guava moth infesting all of the plums and ruining the crop (all the wet, didn't help either, with fruit splitting).

     Seems to be a widespread issue in Auckland, with some saying that virtually every fruit and nut tree (that isn't citrus) is affected.

     The only effective treatment is pheromone traps – catch the males before breeding – but that, of course, doesn't stop the fertilized females from next door arriving to lay eggs on your unripe fruit.
     • Robert Guyton 3.2.1

       7 February 2023 at 5:01 pm

       I've heard that too, Belladonna, from visitors from the North; very sobering for a fruit grower. I hope our sou'westers keep the guava moth at bay. Not very keen to have brown rot arrive either; "Brown rot", now there's something we really don't want down here. I met him once. We didn't click
   • Muttonbird.... 3.3

     7 February 2023 at 8:27 pm

     The only thing growing at my place is Kikuyu.
4. Siobhan 4

   7 February 2023 at 11:25 am

   Pre Earthquake Syria story…https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/11/1130427

   “With more than half of the vital infrastructure either completely destroyed or severely damaged, the imposition of unilateral sanctions on key economic sectors, including oil, gas, electricity, trade, construction and engineering have quashed national income, and undermine efforts towards economic recovery and reconstruction”, said Ms. Douhan.

   In light of this latest earthquake, I wonder if America will lead the way in reversing their sanctions, you would think so, you know, given what a benign and reasonable Imperial power people seem to see them as..at the very least lift the sanctions to allow direct aid..the fact that they can't (European Union, the United States, Canada, Australia, Switzerland), just goes to show who the real victims of sanctions are..

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Syria
5. Jimmy 5

   7 February 2023 at 11:25 am

   Law needs to change if security guards aren't allowed to touch these people as police can't be expected to always get there in time. Good on the lady for filming and speaking out about the thieves sense of entitlement.

   'It's not right': Households paying more for groceries to subsidise criminal behaviour after thieves' brazen robbery attempt – Retail NZ (msn.com)
   • weka 5.1

     7 February 2023 at 11:42 am

     "sense of entitlement" aka hunger.
     • Jimmy 5.1.1

       7 February 2023 at 11:51 am

       Would be interesting to see the items loaded in to the trolley as often that is not the case due to what they steal. As the Countdown manager advised me when I witnessed a robbery, they usually steal the small expensive items from the pharmacy aisle or either alcohol. So I guess more likely their 'sense of entitlement' is ageing concerns or they are thirsty!
       • Red Blooded One 5.1.1.1

         7 February 2023 at 12:03 pm

         Jimmy, Who cares about your "reckons" about what or why people steal. They need to face the Law plus get help rather than Judgemental Arseholes circle jerking about their circumstances.
         • Jimmy 5.1.1.1.1

           7 February 2023 at 1:22 pm

           You are "preaching to the converted". I agree that they need to face the law. Everyone in NZ is entitled to some sort of benefit / help. I was simply answering Weka's comment that they are simply hungry. Usually these people are not satisfied with the help/benefits they are receiving and feel entitled to steal.
           • weka 5.1.1.1.1.1

             7 February 2023 at 2:05 pm

             I don't know if they're hungry. Maybe they're stealing to sell for profit. I was simply responding to your reckons with a counter proposal – they might be stealing because they have no food.

             WINZ isn't easy to access, so while people might be technically entitled whether they will get the assistance they need is a different story. The government could fix this and then maybe we'd have less supermarket theft.

             Usually these people are not satisfied with the help/benefits they are receiving and feel entitled to steal.

             Your reckons.
             • Drowsy M. Kram …

               7 February 2023 at 2:36 pm

               Reckon hunger isn't Jiminy's problem

               https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/482553/cost-of-living-pressures-dial-up-demand-for-food-parcels
       • weka 5.1.1.2

         7 February 2023 at 4:12 pm

         maybe they can sell the stuff and buy more food than they could steal.
     • Red Blooded One 5.1.2

       7 February 2023 at 11:58 am

       Hunger isn't an excuse for theft. The theft part could be seen as a sense of entitlement. Those in poverty need help, not a free reign to break the law.
       • weka 5.1.2.1

         7 February 2023 at 1:01 pm

         can't see how they've got free rein to break the law, given what's in the video.

         if this is an ongoing problem, rather than a one off, the solution is to make sure people have enough to live on. Stigmatising desperate people will make the situation worse.
       • Robert Guyton 5.1.2.2

         7 February 2023 at 5:06 pm

         Those poor Englishmen who were sent to the colony prison camps for stealing a loaf of bread might not have agreed with you, RBO.
         • weka 5.1.2.2.1

           7 February 2023 at 5:39 pm

           those entitled bastards.
         • Red Blooded One 5.1.2.2.2

           7 February 2023 at 5:57 pm

           True that Robert. Life in Australia for a loaf of bread, cruel and unusual punishment for sure.
           • Robert Guyton 5.1.2.2.2.1

             7 February 2023 at 8:21 pm

             Ha!

             Better to starve.
       • Craig H 5.1.2.3

         7 February 2023 at 10:56 pm

         Italy's highest court thinks otherwise . Novel and obviously not NZ law, but interesting.
   • Visubversa 5.2

     7 February 2023 at 12:41 pm

     Supermarkets have people on camera from the second they step into the store. Every one of us can be tracked through the store and constantly observed. Security guards have no need to stop anybody – a number plate would be useful, or a direction of travel.

     However, most of the frequent shop thieves are known to the Police already and all that is needed is for the relevant footage to be compiled and sent off to the Police.
     • weka 5.2.1

       7 February 2023 at 1:03 pm

       yeah, I was kind of surprised at the staff getting so physical. Get good photos, follow them out and get their number plate, rather than risking injury.
     • Jimmy 5.2.2

       7 February 2023 at 1:26 pm

       "a number plate would be useful, or a direction of travel."

       Often they wont be in their own vehicle, and as for direction of travel "they went that way,", yeah I can see the police writing down "we are looking for someone heading in the direction of Manukau"…that will be a great help!//
       • Visubversa 5.2.2.1

         7 February 2023 at 8:51 pm

         If you are pushing a trolley – and the losers up the road from us have a collection outside their "affordable" accommodation – it is useful to know where they went.
     • Belladonna 5.2.3

       7 February 2023 at 4:49 pm

       Yeah. Police basically don't do anything with all of the security camera footage provided. They are so overwhelmed with dealing with violent crime, that theft is a long way back in their priorities. The standard response is "lack of police resources".

       This is an example of a case being re-opened – because of the persistence of the victim (actually going to the police complaints authority).

       https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-reopen-theft-case-after-incorrectly-dismissing-concrete-evidence/VAYHVPJZLVBIPJG5IZQ5GX75TY/

       We've seen others being actioned, because of media publicity.

       But the vast majority just get filed. If the criminal is caught for some other reason, the case might be added to their total – but probably not.

       In the meantime – the chances of the victim getting the property back (unless they take independent action) are pretty close to zero. And the shops have to wear the cost (which means increased prices for everyone else).
       • alwyn 5.2.3.1

         7 February 2023 at 6:26 pm

         "They are so overwhelmed with dealing with violent crime, that theft is a long way back in their priorities."

         What is it that qualifies as violent crime? From the look of this story you have to carry out at least a couple of violent assaults before they will do anything about it.

         Here is someone who, on the 26th August stabbed a neighbour in the stomach with a knife because the person attacked wouldn't give him a cigarette. They lived on the same street and were known to each other. Then on the evening of the 28th August he stabbed another neighbour, this time with a screwdriver.

         Why on earth hadn't the police picked him up in the interval? I can't believe they hadn't heard about it, either from the first victim or the hospital?

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/131159250/man-stabbed-woman-23-times-after-she-refused-to-give-him-cigarette

         Perhaps we are supposed to accept that he is not to blame for anything except suffering from the results of colonialism?
   • arkie 5.3

     7 February 2023 at 1:40 pm

     It's good to put this theft into perspective:

     the biggest type of theft, one that doesn’t make front page news in the way ram raids do. The police aren’t sending teams of cops to raid the perpetrators. Not a single person is going to jail. For these crimes to be resolved, the victim has to make a claim themselves, and there’s no guarantee it’ll be successful. Even if it is, there might not be a fine for the perpetrator. And everyone more or less knows it’s happening. It’s not physical theft: it’s wage theft.

     …

     We’re so used to minor wage theft like this that we don’t even think about it as a crime – and it’s not. While wage theft involves breaking the law, and there are processes to enforce that law, it is not considered a criminal offence.

     The way our legal system is designed means that the most widespread theft under the law isn’t treated as a crime.

     …

     We need to rethink what we consider crimes, and our priorities for how we go about dealing with people that commit these crimes. It’s worth asking ourselves what the goal of our criminal justice system is. Is punishment really the point? And is that what is best for everyone?

     https://www.critic.co.nz/features/article/10405/why-the-cops-arent-chasing-the-biggest-theft-in-th
6. joe90 6

   7 February 2023 at 12:34 pm

   Or the Green School.

   https://twitter.com/DanaSchwartzzz/status/1622454450354008064
   • weka 6.1

     7 February 2023 at 8:29 pm

     more Steiner I think.

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