Open mike 07/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 7th, 2020 - 119 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

119 comments on “Open mike 07/10/2020 ”

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    • Stuart Munro 1.1
      7 October 2020 at 8:14 am

      If only he were as quick to support workers interests – that used to be the raison d'etre for the party before they sold out.

      • The Al1en 1.1.1
        7 October 2020 at 9:04 am

        He would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky gay kids 🙄

        • greywarshark 1.1.1.1
          7 October 2020 at 9:38 am

          TA – That sounds a bit skewed – I think Andy Pandy is the good guy here, and nothing more needs to be said.

        • Stuart Munro 1.1.1.2
          7 October 2020 at 12:15 pm

          They did get away with it – Roger Douglas has still not received punishment commensurate with his crimes against his countrymen – but hey, rainbow squirrel!

          Fastest growing inequality in the OECD. An unprecedented housing crisis and no substantial attempt to address it. Mass low-wage unskilled immigration so prevalent that employers are publicly confessing their prejudices against NZ workers.

          Conversion is not very prevalent in NZ, but it's poised to be the next anti-smacking vote losing issue if folk want to double down on it.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.2.1
            7 October 2020 at 1:07 pm

            Conversion therapy is torture which is already illegal. So all that's really required is recognition within the legal system that it is torture. Basically, it could be done in about half a day so not exactly a huge distraction.

            Throwing in a bit about it legally being recognised as the unscientific BS that it is would also help.

            • Stuart Munro 1.1.1.2.1.1
              7 October 2020 at 1:32 pm

              As far as that goes, the 'therapy' would fall under the mental health act.

              There are rights to refuse, to be respected, to have the company of others etc.

              No doubt often honored in the breach, but the smacking law comparison is apt – no cases were affected by the electorally fatal insistence on that legislation. There are an almost infinite number of serious issues more deserving of parliamentary time.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                7 October 2020 at 2:07 pm

                There are rights to refuse, to be respected, to have the company of others etc.

                Unless you're a child and the parents are having it done to you.

              • solkta …
                7 October 2020 at 2:55 pm

                I can't think of anything more deserving of parliamentary time than the extension of the protection of the law to all.

          • The Al1en 1.1.1.2.2
            7 October 2020 at 4:46 pm

            Though I reckon he'd still try, I'd bet even Andrew Little couldn't save someone who posts "but hey, rainbow squirrel" in a debate about the need to halt homo/transphobic torture from continuing to occur on these shores.

            Believing that governments have a wide focus regarding policy and are able to proceed with more than one piece of legislation at a time, it obviously doesn't have to be an either or thing, but if it were, I'd forgo negotiations on workers rights until the horrific abuses were made illegal first.

            • Stuart Munro 1.1.1.2.2.1
              7 October 2020 at 7:01 pm

              By all means show us this "need".

              Have there been cases here? Because if there haven't been, it becomes pretty reasonable to ask why this is suddenly important.

              • The Al1en …
                7 October 2020 at 8:38 pm

                According to the tvnz vote compass survey, 72% want what is still legal, to be banned in NZ, if you're not one of the 12% who don't know, then you're in the 14% that see no reason to end the immediate suffering and long term damage inflicted on the poor sods who have to go through it.

                https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/vote-compass-most-new-zealanders-want-conversion-therapy-banned

                Don't wait for me to do your googling for you, get stuck in to some research, or just take a side on principle and let us know how you get on.

              • McFlock …
                7 October 2020 at 8:59 pm

                Well, the USA is morphing the last few steps into a Nazi Gilead state, so no time like the present.

                If there's no current need, it spells it out for the future. If there is a current need, it makes illegal an intervention that might triple the suicide rate in affected youths.

                Either way, I like that the policy cup is even half full. I won't demand it be tipped out just because it doesn't have my favourite half. The, in my case, generally comes from the Greens.

                I take my manifestos as cocktails, not neat.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  7 October 2020 at 9:15 pm

                  Well my part of the curate's egg, fisheries, is always left to keep rotting.

                  Excuse me if I don't cheer for yet another dose of rainbow distraction.

                  • McFlock …
                    7 October 2020 at 9:22 pm

                    Not cheering is fair enough.

                    What we have too much on in the left is viewing policies that are not our own priorities as "distractions", even if those policies are priorities for other lefties.

                    All that leads to is incessant whinging because there will never be a policy announcement that satisfies everyone.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      7 October 2020 at 9:28 pm

                      Well I've waited twenty-five years. I no longer expect anything good from Labour – but they'll pick up any kind of dodgy pc crap faster than you can say 'knife'. Looks like this is one of those.

                    • solkta …
                      7 October 2020 at 9:32 pm

                      dodgy pc crap

                      Thanks for clarifying things, at least we know now that you are just an arsehole.

                      [Can you please dial down the insult level, thanks – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []
                      7 October 2020 at 10:18 pm

                      See my Moderation note @ 9:32 PM.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 October 2020 at 9:52 pm

                      It's only "dodgy pc crap" to you because you don't think you or anyone you know is affected by it.

            • Stuart Munro 1.1.1.2.2.2
              7 October 2020 at 7:34 pm

              It seems to be a hobby horse of Shaneel Lal.

              No doubt another Chris Carter in the making.

              • The Al1en …
                7 October 2020 at 8:41 pm

                I suppose undergoing thought control procedures and being told you're not who you are will, for the strong ones, force push back.

                Explain “No doubt another Chris Carter in the making” a bit more, ta.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  7 October 2020 at 9:03 pm

                  push back

                  Yes – it must be a heady thing to have all the apparatus of state bent to one's personal whim instead of serving the public good for which it was created. But it would be more persuasive to document the prevalence or otherwise of the practice here.

                  Chris Carter had to be let go. His virtues were less apparent than he supposed.

                  • McFlock …
                    7 October 2020 at 9:13 pm

                    It wasn't his virtues that were the problem, it was his political vices. Getting caught sending anonymous letters to the press gallery to knobble your leader is not a long term career move.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      8 October 2020 at 10:43 am

                      The procedures are psychological – which makes them subject to medical ethical considerations like consent.

                    • McFlock …
                      8 October 2020 at 8:10 pm

                      An extremely debatable position.

                      Firstly, define the activities that are "psychological procedures".

                      Secondly, show how they are "psychological" in nature, rather than, say, "spiritual" or "cultural".

                      Thirdly, demonstrate that parents cannot consent to "psychological procedures" or indeed any medical procedures on behalf of their children.

                      Fourth, demonstrate harm to a level that overrules parental rights.

                      Fifth, start the child protection process.

                      OR:

                      First, notify the parents and operator that : "This violates the prohibition on 'conversion therapy', and is grounds for a protection order on behalf of the child", or something along those lines.

                      Second, continue the rest of the child protection process.

                  • The Al1en …
                    7 October 2020 at 9:14 pm

                    Still not getting the Chris Carter in the making bit. It's like you want to say something about the young man but don't have the same sort of courage he clearly has to do so.

                    See, just as I don't need to know rape statistics or numbers of domestic violence victims to know it's wrong, and that these crimes against a person's health, safety and personal dignity should be legislated against – The same with conversion therapy. You?

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      7 October 2020 at 9:24 pm

                      Conversion therapy is covered by several different pieces of existing legislation. So what's really happening here? Is the young man acting in the public interest, or taking the shortest possible path to publicity and reputation?

                    • The Al1en …
                      7 October 2020 at 9:28 pm

                      Whatever his motive, even your suggestion which does read as quite mean spirited, the fact remains that conversion therapy is still legal here, and a majority (in public and in the next parliament) want it stopped before it damages more young New Zealanders. No biggie.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      7 October 2020 at 9:31 pm

                      mean spirited

                      Or you could take that, since it is already illegal on several counts under existing law, the young fellow should concern himself with obtaining redress for those threatened by it or having suffered it, instead of requiring a whole new law.

                    • The Al1en …
                      7 October 2020 at 9:36 pm

                      But that's just it, it isn't illegal, hence why there will be a new law after the election.

                      Edit:

                      “Currently, it is regarded as “unethical behaviour” to provide conversion therapy. However, this only applies to licenced therapists and counsellors. Technically, anyone in New Zealand can claim to offer services in conversion therapy, and suffer no legal repercussions.”

                      https://www.equaljusticeproject.co.nz/articles/nothing-to-be-proud-of-conversion-therapy-in-new-zealand2020

                    • McFlock …
                      7 October 2020 at 9:49 pm

                      Which legislation?

                      It's not any of the Mental Health acts, because sexual orientation is not a recognised mental condition.

                      DtB's idea that it's torture might be limited by the fact that torture is narrowly defined and can only be committed by public officials.

                      Assault might apply, but it's not physical force as punishment and frankly a lot of these fuckers are more about mental abuse rather than physical. And when it's done under the transferred authority of the parents, that ,ight be a hard legal row to hoe.

                      One might think OT would be able to step in, but then they get into discussions about definitions of ill treatment and whether the "therapy" is good or bad for the child.

                      But an explicit legal "conversion therapy is bad, m'kay" cuts through all those QC-level arguments.

      • Patricia Bremner 1.1.2
        7 October 2020 at 2:07 pm

        SM @ 1.1 Talk to Willie, the Employment Minister. Andrew is Justice.

        • Stuart Munro 1.1.2.1
          7 October 2020 at 3:48 pm

          I've talked and written to them for decades – and they have done nothing, and been rude about it to boot.

    • Chris T 1.2
      7 October 2020 at 10:15 am

      Tbf I don't actually see it being that much of a priority either given the Covid situation and the economy.

      Would be interested to hear Little's idea for how it is going to be policed when it happens behind closed doors and what you charge them with.

      • Chris 1.2.1
        7 October 2020 at 11:49 am

        Tell those affected it shouldn't be a priority. What's interesting is how collins wouldn't give a view on it because she needs to know more. It's more likely she's not opposed to it but doesn't want to lose the liberal vote.

        • Chris T 1.2.1.1
          7 October 2020 at 12:27 pm

          I would put more priority on our atrocious rates of infant and child abuse,

          Edit: But hey. Maybe my priorities are stupid

          • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1.1
            7 October 2020 at 1:14 pm

            In many cases, it is child abuse.

          • solkta 1.2.1.1.2
            7 October 2020 at 2:56 pm

            Other forms of child abuse are already illegal.

            • Chris T 1.2.1.1.2.1
              7 October 2020 at 3:09 pm

              Fair enough. But I would point out conversion therapy isn't always just kids.

              But adding it to the child abuse category is fine by me.

              Still can't see how they police it, but shouldn't take that long.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                7 October 2020 at 3:32 pm

                At $200/hr I think it will be fairly easy to police. Especially if those people try to take it to the blackmarket.

                • Chris T …
                  7 October 2020 at 3:39 pm

                  I have learnt something new. Thanks.

                  I actually, probably stupidly assumed it was done in the church, behind closed doors and not openly advertised by counsellors.

                  And that Riddell bloke in your link should be the first in the line of screwing over btw.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.2
          7 October 2020 at 1:14 pm

          It's more likely she's not opposed to it

          IMO, her praying in church in front of the cameras indicate that she's all for it or, at the very least, won't do anything about it so that other God Fearing practitioners can continue to abuse their children without being sent to jail.

          • Chris 1.2.1.2.1
            7 October 2020 at 6:25 pm

            Maybe, although I'd say she doesn't care and that her public position would be whichever loses her the least votes, hence her fence-sitting.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.2.2
        7 October 2020 at 1:11 pm

        What to charge them with?

        Torture, Kidnapping, Abuse, Assault – just to name a few. All of which are already illegal.

        As I've said before, what we really need is a law that prevents any product coming on to the market until it has been properly classified and regulated.

      • joe90 1.2.3
        7 October 2020 at 2:17 pm

        Tbf I don't actually see it being that much of a priority either given the Covid situation and the economy.

        Do tell when you think it should be a priority to stop torturing people for existing?

        • greywarshark 1.2.3.1
          7 October 2020 at 2:19 pm

          I think that we are concentrating on what is vitally important for the whole of NZ in this time envelope. Concentrate. concentrate.

          • Gabby 1.2.3.1.1
            7 October 2020 at 3:37 pm

            Well it's vitally important that a bunch of NZers stop behaving like arseholes. I'd've thought.

        • Chris T 1.2.3.2
          7 October 2020 at 2:40 pm

          It depends on how many people it is actually happening to.

          I know the figures for people abusing the shit out of kids everyday and our stupid amounts of deaths, but conversion therapy seems a bit vague.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.2.3.2.1
            7 October 2020 at 4:56 pm

            but conversion therapy seems a bit vague.

            Conversion Therapy:

            [Content deleted because it contained too many links that triggered Auto-Moderation]

            Doesn't seem that vague.

          • Patricia Bremner 1.2.3.2.2
            7 October 2020 at 5:22 pm

            ChrisT our son was offered that type of "help",

            His Father and I told the Dr. that was why we and our son were changing to the other Dr. in the practice, as he did not let his personal views and religion interfere with medicine or treatment. Talk about lose faith!!

            That was 15 years ago. We were 'gobsmacked ' it was being touted when our son was 38 at the time.

            So yes and it is demeaning as it sent a "you are not normal you are broken" message.

  2. Pat 2
    7 October 2020 at 7:45 am

    Oh dear…..Miss Collins unravelling .

    RNZ best hope she dosnt win the election as they'll be gone by lunchtime.

  3. Ad 3
    7 October 2020 at 10:03 am

    Eddie van Halen!

    Sad!

  4. newsense 4
    7 October 2020 at 10:05 am

    Jane Patterson carrying a bit of a candle for Collins? Keen on the beat up and not so keen to call BS BS and move on.

    • newsense 4.1
      7 October 2020 at 10:06 am

      Ah y'all already heard/read it

    • ianmac 4.2
      7 October 2020 at 1:40 pm

      Jane Patterson is a neutral political journalist who likes to point out the flaws on the Left and gloss over the flaws on the Right. Rumours of her getting "support" from the National Party are so very untrue.

    • newsense 4.3
      7 October 2020 at 11:15 pm

      Actually was a bit of a harsh call this morning, particularly after seeing the interview and the rest of the article. Just glanced at this:

      #Collins' Samoan husband and her "Talofa" greeting generated a fair amount of feedback in the first debate and it was mention of Samoa's record on Covid that provoked an angry retort with the National leader telling Ardern "not to disrespect Samoa". She had not, insisted Ardern, and couldn't figure out why Collins had reacted so strongly. Afterwards Collins said she felt "possessive" of the Pacific nation and felt it had been disrespected when Samoa has done so well managing Covid#

      which is fairly slack ol wedgetable politics, but yeh, not such a haigiography.

  5. Patricia Bremner 5
    7 October 2020 at 10:24 am

    Jacinda called it "We are all lucky to live here".

    Judith is showing the manipulation of stats she became famous for.

    We hope New Zealanders pull together to keep this virus under control.

    As Jacinda says, we will face this again, and we can only have certainty if we can interact carefully and record those interactions.

    Human nature is to be a bit slack, so keep up the good work so we can all look forward to Christmas and unwrap a Labour and Greens Government.

  6. Dennis Frank 6
    7 October 2020 at 10:38 am

    Steve Braunias declares it for Guardian readers: The winner of the third NZ election leaders' debate? Death. Hovering in the wings, I presume, since I didn't see it onstage.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/06/the-winner-of-the-third-nz-election-leaders-debate-death-jacinda-ardern-judith-collins

    It was the third debate of the election campaign and both leaders brought their B-game. Nothing new in that from Ardern.

    She’s been generally kind of like actually completely hopeless in every debate; a bit of a total howling bore, unwilling or unable to say a single memorable thing.

    There was one change in her performance on Tuesday, though: she moved. She went full-on jazz hands, and came very close to busting out some tasty air guitar.

    Two newspaper editors moderated the debate, and demonstrated that the last people you want moderating a debate are two newspaper editors.

    Asked what kind of cars they drove, Ardern said she had a Hyunda EV, Collins said she had a BMW. There was a stir from the studio audience; if the siren song of the debate was death, Collins’s reply was a reminder of the one truly good Oasis song, Supersonic, in which Liam Gallagher sings: “Can I ride with you in your BMW?”

    • greywarshark 6.1
      7 October 2020 at 12:01 pm

      I like Joe Walsh with his Maserati, does one-eighty-five, I lost my licence, Now I don't drive. That's more JC style actually. Don't worry about global warming, farming; keep on smarming JC (apparently getting a christian high on her initials)! Just remember JC life's been good so far, and the real JC had to suffer for his beliefs and values, so don't pretend to actually care about Christ-like agape-love, you'll never make it and it's bad to see you trying to fake it.

      Have a decadent moment with Walsh who is revelling in decadent as he records:

  7. Andre 7
    7 October 2020 at 10:47 am

    What is the actual point of these onstage political debates?

    It's not as if the skills needed to "win" a debate have any overlap with the skills needed to govern well. Policy substance never ever gets explored, at best there might be a surface once-over-lightly. Performance art for an audience isn't leadership, it's not persuasion, it's not bringing together different viewpoints to form a workable solution.

    The rare instances that a debate actually produces a game-changing moment, it's because of its theatrical impact, not actual governing substance. Such as "there you go again" or "show me the money" or someone glancing at their watch.

    So, what is the point?

    • arkie 7.1
      7 October 2020 at 10:49 am

      Revenue and relevance for the media organisation hosting them?

    • Incognito 7.2
      7 October 2020 at 10:52 am

      So, what is the point?

      The same point as of any blood sport that’s televised.

      • woodart 7.2.1
        7 October 2020 at 11:09 am

        to sell advertising?televised political debates are a long way from televised blood sports. closer to competitive cooking shows, and there isnt much point to those. think arkie has it about right. when the star of a televised political debate is either the worm or the host(sometimes, the same thing), it shows just how pointless they are.

        • Incognito 7.2.1.1
          7 October 2020 at 11:22 am

          Scoring ‘points’ to improve your personal and/or team ‘rankings’ is one point. Another point is the ‘promotion’ of the ‘sport’, i.e. the whole circus is an ‘ad’ in and of itself. It is also building relationships with the media. The NZ press & media landscape is tiny and narrow and yet we’ve had three leaders debates with the same names popping up again and again. Just my views.

          • woodart 7.2.1.1.1
            7 October 2020 at 11:32 am

            the small size of nz press and media is a double edged sword. as we have seen, many of last weeks truth tellers become next weeks spin doctors. still dont see any real point to televised political debates. the polies all know the media by now. the veiwing public deserve something better than this rubbish, wheres julie christy with another reality shitshow? a combo of dancing with stars(?) and competitive cooking,with the live audience given missiles to throw. now, THAT I would watch, at least up to the first ad break(bone breaks would keep me watching).

    • AB 7.3
      7 October 2020 at 12:15 pm

      The purpose of the debates is to deliver viewers to advertisers.

      Nobody ever 'wins' or 'loses' them because there can be no objective measure of winning or losing – mostly they just confirm viewers in their existing opinions.

      When determinations are made of who 'won' or 'lost' these are usually based on the frisson generated by trivial inter-personal moments (who looked grumpy/frustrated/lost for words, etc.) rather than some overall sense of that party's fitness to govern.

      They could be replaced by long-form one-on-one interviews with intelligent and well-informed interviewers who have zero interest in 'gotchas' or self-aggrandisement – but such people don't exist in the contemporary media landscape.

      • woodart 7.3.1
        7 October 2020 at 12:33 pm

        so, who, apart from political junkies are there target audience? most kiwis with a pulse, would rather watch something(anything?) else.Im with incognito.

  8. Pat 8
    7 October 2020 at 10:56 am

    Woods said she wanted to increase the supply of affordable housing “without radically readjusting house prices so that people are losing equity in their homes”.

    “What we want to see is some stabilisation of prices,” Woods said.

    https://www.interest.co.nz/property/107402/why-labour-believes-taxpayers-need-underwrite-housing-developments-and-how-it-plans

    So Labour happy to accept median ratios of over 7 (and 9 in Auckland) when its considered severely unaffordable

    • Muttonbird 8.1
      7 October 2020 at 10:57 am

      This is why I'll be voting Green.

      • Dennis Frank 8.1.1
        7 October 2020 at 3:51 pm

        I party-voted Green an hour ago. The local candidate list didn't show a Green option so I quizzed the polling booth officials about that (I'd done the zoom selection meeting months ago, read his bio, a 17 year old Indian guy living in PN, keen).

        Getting the gist that he hadn't made it down the home straight, I ended up voting for Glen Beck, the Labour guy. Like Obama, a community organiser. Since I've been telling people for years that we got too much individualism & now need more community, I'm cool with his vocation.

        Naturally, as an archetypal individualist, I frame this as personal development! I can go further & posit attainment of a high level of maturity late in life, eh? Except Gabby would rightfully draw attention to an element of pretension in such a pose.

        Anyway good on you for going Green. I had you picked as staunch Labour due to relentless extreme left stances. Got that wrong!

        Oh, btw, emailed our GP organiser & she promptly informed me she'd notified us back when he had to pull out. The branch emails have operated on a hit or miss basis the past couple of years, for reasons I couldn't be bothered investigating, and I know it didn't reach me. Could be the Russians, perhaps… wink

        • solkta 8.1.1.1
          7 October 2020 at 4:10 pm

          I'm not sure why you would think someone with an extreme left stance would think Labour were a better bet over the Greens? Have you compared the policy?

          As for your green mail, check whatever spam filters you have in your email client and also running on your webmail. I found that my Orcon account was deciding randomly that some green emails were spam. Not all, just the odd one, which was odd. I ended up disabling the thing entirely.

  9. Morrissey 9
    7 October 2020 at 11:11 am

    We could face 4 more years of Trump, due largely to this hopeless gerontocracy

    One of the most embarrassing politicians in all of American history is the ridiculous NY congressman Jerrold Nadler, who achieved immortality by claiming that alleged Russian hacking in 2016 constituted an "act of war" equivalent to Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

    https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/a-consensus-emerges-russia-committed-an-act-of-war-on-par-with-pearl-harbor-and-911-should-the-u-s-response-be-similar/

    Trump is terrible and in any functioning democracy he and his cronies from hell would be long gone—but the incompetence of the Democratic gerontocracy, from the doddering Diane Feinstein, to the smiling and ineffectual Nancy Pelosi, to the hilarious Nadler, and of course Sleepy Joe Biden, means that it's still uncertain as to whether he will be defeated next month.

    As Matt Christman points out at the end of this clip, "These people are not doing the job you are fantasising they do. They are mentally and physically incapable."

    • greywarshark 9.1
      7 October 2020 at 12:09 pm

      As Matt Christman points out at the end of this clip,

      "These people are not doing the job you are fantasising they do. They are mentally and physically incapable."

      I don't know who M Christman is but he said an intelligent mouthful there. It really is the piece of resistance (Peter Sellers) of out post-modern political scene.

      (Where did that surname come from? It sounds so phony. Does it reflect his deeper leanings, or is it part of his sponsorship. There would be money in that, having the blessing of Nike on you every time you sign/say your name, would you get paid in a lump sum of just on clickbait counts.)

      • Morrissey 9.1.1
        7 October 2020 at 4:29 pm

        Christman is a fairly common surname. I know a couple of people in Auckland with the name. Matt Christman is, as you obviously picked up, a brilliant and trenchant political commentator. The Chapo Trap House podcast is always outstanding; it restores one's faith in the future of America to hear young, thoughtful, serious people talking with such wit and such insight. Highly recommended!

    • left_forward 9.2
      7 October 2020 at 3:38 pm

      Its always uncertain until there's an election Mo – but it looks like an old man will certainly win, and its unlikely to be your pick. Your pigeon-holing of being old as doddering, ineffectual, incompetent, sleepy, hopeless (with more words related to shitting and farting, etc in your attachment), says something very weird about you, and nothing whatsoever about a congressman on the other side of the world.

      • Morrissey 9.2.1
        7 October 2020 at 4:21 pm

        I didn't and I don't pigeon-hole old people. I, and obviously many disgusted Americans also, do indeed see Pelosi, Feinstein, Nadler, Biden as doddering, ineffectual, incompetent, sleepy, and hopeless. They were equally disastrous thirty years ago.

        There are many people in the United States, far older than those four, who are bright, thoughtful and fully engaged in public life. Bernie Sanders, for instance. And Noam Chomsky.

        • left_forward 9.2.1.1
          8 October 2020 at 12:26 pm

          Not convincing – other than their age, you don't explain why you judge them in this way.

  10. greywarshark 10
    7 October 2020 at 12:19 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427778/land-on-old-wellington-prison-site-too-sacred-for-housing-mau-whenua

    Land in Wellington has so much history embedded in it – it's not just handy spare ground to build houses on as a quick fix to the years of neglect of proper provision of necessary infrastructure by government.

  11. mac1 11
    7 October 2020 at 12:24 pm

    This is not the start of a bad joke!

    Two Anglican priests wearing their collars walked into a Labour Party office. "We have not seen anyone praying and holding her hands like Judith Collins in an Anglican church in thirty years".

    As seen by meself a few minutes ago.

  12. greywarshark 12
    7 October 2020 at 12:35 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/generation-next/story/2018766702/teacher-affected-by-terror-attacks-pleads-for-other-cultures-to-be-embraced

    What NZ non-Muslim women could do is to start wearing a scarf over the head tied at the neck. That would give the passers-by on the street the experience of seeing similar to the Muslim head covering of the hijab (without half-veil).

    Someone I know did that and said it was noticeable that a rather large young boy going past fixed his eye on her and just stared. Nothing said or done, but the steady gaze was noticeable. So why not give it a try, show some solidarity – not as much as the wearing of the yellow star by the Danish in WW2. (Which apparently was a fable. This would be real.)

  13. joe90 13
    7 October 2020 at 2:28 pm

    When the Australian right is too toxic for a Faux news talking head.

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1313553163354624006

  14. Andre 14
    7 October 2020 at 4:00 pm

    Bonus Question for yesterday's Trump Covid game, worth triple points:

    Down 10% in polls and the election 4 weeks away that you desperately need to win for your future to not include a lot of orange jumpsuit, and a lot of your electorate out of work and wondering how they will pay their bills and even just eat, do you:

    • A – Publicly work hard with all the lawmakers you need to pass a relief package helping out those in desperate straits and make it clear there will be more where that came from if needed after the election
    • B – Flounce out of negotiations in a hissy fit vowing to not even consider a relief package until after the election

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-coronavirus-stimulus-delay-twitter_n_5f7cee46c5b61229a058cd6a

  15. Whispering Kate 15
    7 October 2020 at 4:19 pm

    Anyone experiencing polling booths not open for early voting in their areas. Devonport a rather twee quaint area of our Auckland North Shore has two out of the three booths closed because it is school holidays and kids need the buildings for their holiday activities.

    Now I am not going to hammer the littlies for their activities but I am head scratching here as to what is more important – a once in three year event to vote in the next Government or keeping our kids occupied during the holidays. The area is crammed with elderly and retired folk and there will be some without cars.

    The pleading with people to vote early as to keep the pesky bug at bay and not clutter up the booths on the final day was a damp squib this afternoon for a relative of mine trapsing all over to find a booth open.

    My grouch for the day.

  16. Ed 16
    7 October 2020 at 4:29 pm

    Judith having a nightmare in Ponsonby.

    Staged interactions.

    Making her way down the affluent suburb’s main stretch from the Seed Heritage store toward the Ponsonby Central eatery, Collins was greeted by smiling people speaking praise for Collins and National and congratulating her on last night’s debate.

    It later transpired many of them had been installed there for the cameras. National’s Auckland Central candidate Emma Mellow admitted as much when asked by media.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/123011800/election-2020-a-terrible-day-on-the-campaign-trail-for-judith-collins

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/07-10-2020/judith-collins-walks-into-a-nightmare-on-ponsonby-road/

  17. Patricia Bremner 17
    7 October 2020 at 5:31 pm

    Wait for Jacinda in Dunedin 6 pm news yay..lol

    • PaddyOT 17.1
      7 October 2020 at 5:59 pm

      When only 2 people unplanned have chance interactions on your lonely campaign walkabout in Posonby, spin it like a Trump to the media needling you.

      "That tells me that there is a real problem, and that problem is the fact that, you know, businesses are shut, people are simply not out and about much … I actually think that's showing the downturn in the economy.”

      Poor Judith, perhaps Lyttleton's economy was better.

      https://m.facebook.com/jacindaardern/posts/10157376466627441

  18. Obtrectator 18
    7 October 2020 at 6:26 pm

    Stuff was running this earlier today, but now seems to have dropped it:

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/05-10-2020/how-judith-collins-and-national-win-the-2020-election/

    • Uncle Scrim 18.1
      7 October 2020 at 8:47 pm

      The Herald was running it as their top story online this afternoon, with a big picture of a smiling Collins. Very odd as it was 2 days old and from another news site.

      • Uncle Scrim 18.1.1
        7 October 2020 at 10:40 pm

        Further to this, this is the Herald's intro text:

        Election 2020: How Judith Collins and National … – NZ Herald

        10 hours ago — Several polls in recent months have put Labour not just heading for victory, but capable of governing as a single-party majority Government – …

        'Several' polls? The last 21 (!) CB, RR, RM, UMR and Curia polls have all put Labour between 47% and 60%, with about 18 of them suggesting Labour could govern alone.

  19. PsyclingLeft.Always 19
    7 October 2020 at 7:01 pm

    "There's no gain without pain" well, obviously for these Covid Fortunates ..

    'Billionaire wealth reached record high levels amid the Covid-19 pandemic, a report by UBS and PwC found, as a rally in stock prices and gains in technology and healthcare helped the wealth of the world's richest break the $10 trillion mark ($NZ15 trillion).'

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/427812/billionaires-reach-record-wealth-during-covid-19-pandemic

  20. sumsuch 20
    7 October 2020 at 10:42 pm

    Since none of you bastards talk at night like normal people (me), I'll carry on anyway. Climate Change is everything — vote Green. Complacence of comfort describes all other views. Not an argument.