Open mike 09/08/2023

100 comments on “Open mike 09/08/2023 ”

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1. bwaghorn 1

   9 August 2023 at 6:59 am

   Will Blackrock s profits from investing in our renewable energy, be taxed in aotearoa?
   • weka 1.1

     9 August 2023 at 7:05 am

     There’s a post up about Blackrock

     https://thestandard.org.nz/climate-ngos-on-the-blackrock-deal/
   • Cricklewood 1.2

     9 August 2023 at 7:10 am

     It would depend on how it's been set up, but its more than likely not. I would imagine tax would be paid in which ever country they are domiciled and likewise for the individual investors with money in Blackrock.
   • Sabine 1.3

     9 August 2023 at 8:07 am

     No. Chances are not.
   • James Simpson 1.4

     9 August 2023 at 11:42 am

     Depends on who owns the entity that holds the asset.

     If for example Wind Turbine number 1 is owned by New Zealand Wind Limited, a New Zealand registered company, and Blackrock invests in that company, then profits will be taxed at the corporate level through New Zealand Wind Limited
2. Peter 2

   9 August 2023 at 7:34 am

   National’s going to micromanage schools to the extent of banning kids having mobile phones in schools ?

   The notion and the practicalities rely on the public being dumb. Dumbness developed in mainly pre-mobile days when we apparently had an education system which was brilliant.
   • Sabine 2.1

     9 August 2023 at 8:08 am

     Good. Kids do not need their mobile phones during class. They can use them during their breaks and tehn all the rest of the day in their rooms at home. But while they are learning they do not need their phones.
     • Cricklewood 2.1.1

       9 August 2023 at 8:16 am

       Im in two minds on this, my daughter is pretty shy so rather than ask a teacher if shes stuck with something usually math or physics she'll flick me a msg to help out. At a previous school where phones were banned she would just sit in class not complete the work and fall behind.
       • weka 2.1.1.1

         9 August 2023 at 9:02 am

         Cell phones can only be used in class for an educational purpose that is part of a student’s schoolwork.

         https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2308/S00079/national-will-ban-cell-phone-use-at-school.htm

         it’s unclear to me how that would work alongside a total ban. But I have to admit I am surprised kids are allowed to use their cell phones during class time.
         • Rosielee 2.1.1.1.1

           9 August 2023 at 1:04 pm

           This all started when kids were allowed to "bring their own devices" in order to make use of online learning. It was a way for schools/govt to avoid the expense of providing enough computers/laptops etc.

           It's also a health and safety issue that if parents want to contact their student or vice versa, they should do so through the school office so the school knows what's happening.
       • Sabine 2.1.1.2

         9 August 2023 at 1:15 pm

         They should not use private cells in schools for schoolwork – give them school devices or not at all.
         And your child will have to learn to communicate in real life if she wants to succeed. I get shy, but not being able to participate other then flicking msg to teachers is not the way to go, kids must learn to speak to others and be able to ask for help.

         So no cells in class, box by the teachers desk, kids put phone in there and get them back when leaving class. Rinse repeat.

         Training for teachers to be able to engage shy kids and give them the confidence to speak up. Cause for sure in the future she might not be able to keep a job if they are not able to communicate in person, or if they can’t do the job because they actually have to speak to people.

         I actually find the idea that a teachers waits for a msg from a student to be quite lazy. Specially if they know that a student is extremely shy.
         • Cricklewood 2.1.1.2.1

           9 August 2023 at 2:25 pm

           Certainly some teachers are better than others in that respect, sadly my daughter had a bad experience with a teacher who essentially made her feel stupid when she asked a question in class and was compounded by some students laughing at the teachers response. A bit soul destroying for a 13yr old. Long story short ended up changing schools
   • Mike the Lefty 2.2

     9 August 2023 at 8:36 am

     Just imagine the indignant trumpeting you would have heard from Newstalk ZB if it had been Labour suggesting this. Hosking and his swaggering sycophants would have been braying about "nanny state", "big brother interfering in people's lives" etc.

     But with National suggesting it there will be a lot of heads nodding sagely.

     How bloody ridiculous.

     If National think this is going to make any difference to the quality of education they obviously know little about what goes on in classrooms.

     Whether Chris Luxon likes it or not cellphones are part of our tech culture now, they are essential tools and unrealistic to expect children to go without what adults can't live and breath without. In any case most, if not all schools have policies regarding their use which generally work well.

     They don't need National interfering in the classroom.

     I wonder how this will go down with wonder boy Seymour?
     • dv 2.2.1

       9 August 2023 at 8:49 am

       Yes.

       My first thought was when was Luxon last in a class room, if ever?
     • observer 2.2.2

       9 August 2023 at 9:22 am

       It is deeply ironic, and deeply dispiriting that we will now get the chorus of "four legs good, two legs better" from the new advocates of the "nanny state".

       Not because it is a terrible idea (there's a reasonable case for it but it's very "meh", a headline grab not a real education policy). But because it is the very definition of "nanny state": a government using the law to tell parents and teachers what is good for their children. As an interfering big-government rule-loving lefty I don't mind so much … but every red-tape-hating get-out-of-our-lives righty should be up in arms.

       But when Nanny's got a blue rosette it's all good. Any decent interviewer would ask Luxon if he'd now like to apologise for National's tedious chorus of "nanny state" all these years.
     • Tiger Mountain 2.2.3

       9 August 2023 at 11:13 am

       Baldrick strikes again–Ban cellphones at schools…

       And by total coincidence RNZ this morning just happened to stumble across several schools that have already banned phones, with glowing accounts of the benefits from the Principals and ‘community’, notably they did not ask any students for their views.

       What first time voters, and yes, Mr Freedom is my middle name Seymour will make of this will be interesting.
       • weston 2.2.3.1

         9 August 2023 at 10:05 pm

         Didnt ask any students etc Actually they did interview one . Predictably she supported restriction of cell use though explaining that her school already had systems in place to regulate it as is probably the case in all schools .
     • AB 2.2.4

       9 August 2023 at 11:24 am

       "I wonder how this will go down with wonder boy Seymour?"

       The libertarian mind works like this: when others have power over me, it's authoritarianism; when I have power over others, it's freedom.
     • BK 2.2.5

       9 August 2023 at 6:20 pm

       Bang on Mike, Tech is part of our society whether we like it or not, they should probably ban windows in classrooms whilst they are at it, just in case a kid is daydreaming about living in a world they can afford. Headline grabbing policy, blah blah blah
   • Ad 2.3

     9 August 2023 at 9:01 am

     Are there any teachers who have a view on this move?
     • Mac1 2.3.1

       9 August 2023 at 9:33 am

       Mrs Mac1, a former teacher, immediately asked, "Who will police this ban?" She suggested the local MP.

       I would ask, as a former teacher myself, where is the evidence that cell phones impede student learning so much that they need banning?

       The topic of student learning performance came up at a political candidates meeting last night.

       The National MP wants 3 hours of mandated core subjects per day on average. He mocked what is taught now saying that you can't even tell what subjects are now by their name.

       Again, I'd ask. What is the evidence that student performances are dropping and what are the drivers of this?

       When I read of such reactionary moves I am reminded of attending AGMs where shallow- minded people bring forward half-arsed stupidity as remits to act as solutions to complex problems.

       For example, a remit calling for AGMs of a national organisation to be held only in towns on the main trunk line supposedly in order to facilitate attendance……..
   • Belladonna 2.4

     9 August 2023 at 9:34 am

     I can't see that this is going to be an effective nation-wide policy.

     It would require teachers to do a lot more managing cell phone use in class – than they are prepared to do. And/or schools to have effective cell-phone management plans in place (some do in practice, but most have a theoretical plan which is ignored in practice).

     Secondary schools do use cellphones as a research/teaching tool in class (anecdata based on my experience of teens, and friendship with teachers). There is, however, a lot of surfing the internet in class – when they are supposed to be working (and using ChatGPT to do their written work for them….)

     Primary schools – much less so. And, it's possible that this is more intended for the primary age group (can't tell from the policy release)

     This will, however, be an effective sound-bite policy with parents who are concerned over dropping education standards – regardless of whether it's implementable or even effective.
     • Macro 2.4.1

       9 August 2023 at 1:38 pm

       And while they are at it, they can pull their socks up!

       Time to get back to black board and slates I say. And fill those ink wells up while you're at it. Young people today…
   • AB 2.5

     9 August 2023 at 11:16 am

     It's not about policy – it's about getting attention because it's a topic just about everyone has an (often ignorant) opinion on. Oh – and you can implement it with any of your supporters having to pay an extra cent of tax – just dump it on the schools to work out. These are not serious people.
   • joe90 2.6

     9 August 2023 at 2:16 pm

     The real Luxon.

     EileenJoy

     @swintersections

     Ok, the cell phone ban thing in schools. Regardless of what you think about it, there was one particular thing in the way Lux Flakes talked about it this morning on RNZ that should be a warning sign for every voter.

     https://twitter.com/swintersections/status/1689057027623096320 (1/8)

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018901834/national-government-would-ban-cellphones-in-schools
     • arkie 2.6.1

       9 August 2023 at 2:22 pm

       Could that thread be provided in a way that non-twitter users can access please?

       This is the real Luxon yesterday:

       Teaching the basics brilliantly is one of National’s education policies.

       But put into practice, Luxon may need to brush up on his own basics.

       While Luxon corrected one student at a Hamilton school that the word ‘car’ is spelt “C-A-R” not “C-A-T”, a child then spelt ‘can’ as “K-A-N” and Luxon repeated it back.

       “K-A-N, very good.”

       ‘Can’ is spelt with a C.

       One child spelled out “K-A-T” next.

       Luxon then asked, “what is K-A-T?”

       The children responded: “Cat.”

       Luxon said: “Cat, I am just checking, I am just checking.”

       One from three – cat-astrophic.

       https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/election-2023-christopher-luxon-stumbles-on-spelling-doesn-t-rule-out-banning-mobile-phones-in-schools.html
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.6.1.1

         9 August 2023 at 2:41 pm

         Holy C . If only he'd had a cell phone to spell check ! Could these be future C/K Luxwords? Is he the Nats Dan Quayle?

         I'm sure there will be more comedy gold coming from this Luxon vein.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 2.6.1.2

         9 August 2023 at 3:11 pm

         Would-be PM Lux Flakes is relatively inexperienced – maybe he was just joking?

         More ‘stand-up’ comedy will be coming our way soon enuff – could be a ruff ride.

         Zen and the art of motorway maintenance [7 August 2023]
         In this sense the pothole is a good symbol how of this election is proceeding. There are itches all around the body politic that demand scratching. In the moment we are far more aware of them than we are of the tumour quietly growing inside, the virus caught but not yet symptomatic, the vehicle crash that awaits around the corner, the fire about to engulf our home. The snake oil retailers draw attention to the easy solutions to the surface and immediate issues and we are often only too willing to reward them for it.
       • joe90 2.6.1.3

         9 August 2023 at 3:27 pm

         Not until I find an alternative.

         Due to Twitter's new pricing structure, we made a difficult choice to restrict the option of unrolling tweets on the web to Premium members only. You can still unroll tweets for free by visiting Twitter and replying to the tweet with "@threadreaderapp unroll." We appreciate your understanding!

         https://threadreaderapp.com/premium
3. ianmac 3

   9 August 2023 at 9:37 am

   A few generations ago, schoolrooms were built with windows high up on the walls so that children were not distracted by goings on outside. But we could glimpse the clouds and the occasional sparrow. It just made classrooms that much more boring and banning cellphones are the modern version of high windows. (Ballpoint pens were banned as well in later years. Just use dip pens which were splattered ink across the work of clumsy fingers.)
   • Mac1 3.1

     9 August 2023 at 10:45 am

     Teachers have always had to deal with distractions. I never allowed the use of ear plugs/headphones for music listening during a lesson unless it was a music lesson. Saxophones were never played during poetry lessons, except perhaps when listening to music lyrics. Chess sets were banned in class except when being made in woodwork. Parrots were only allowed in class on Pets' Day.

     An argument could be made that cellphones enable bullying but the prevention of bullying has not been a motivation for National. Even so, the issue of bullying at school is far more complex and needing wider remedies than the blanket banning of cell phones.

     Now, what other factors might there be for poor school performance?

     I used to deal with 'naughty' boys who were sent from class. High on their factors that could have affected their learning so much that they were sent from class were, in no particular order- poor nutrition including no breakfast, late nights spent on electronic devices that often led to lateness the next morning and therefore no time/desire to eat breakfast, consumption of cans of 'energy' drinks, disinterest caused by all sorts of factors, parental problems, poor housing, medical reasons, hearing, bullying, drug use, alcohol.

     That list would not be addressed by a cell phone ban as even bullying can continue without texting, after all.

     Poor performance is far more complex than cell phones. The issues I listed above need far more state intervention than call phone bans, far more resources, money, housing, meals etc. Don’t even need a police force when you have teachers to enforce the ban.

     But that’s National for you. Poor, cheap fixes by others for problems of their own making.
     • weston 3.1.1

       9 August 2023 at 10:46 pm

       Chess sets were banned in class etc Wow brilliant decision !!! lol
       • Mac1 3.1.1.1

         10 August 2023 at 8:20 am

         Constant banging on time clocks, cries of
         "Check!' and 'Mate!', tapping of knights negotiating their moves, bishops sermonising, castles crumbling, pawns being sacrificed……. very noisy! But at lunchtime, the chess and guitar clubs were where the smart ones were.
   • William 3.2

     9 August 2023 at 11:12 am

     You must be old. According to Te Ara

     "In the 1920s new approaches were made to school planning, notably of the Taranaki and Canterbury open air type, with very much larger windows for more light and ventilation."

     I started school in 1958 in a school that had large opening windows on the north side, which gave views over the playground & grass rugby/cricket field to the road & houses on the far side.

     And in the USA

     "Architects, including Eliel Saarinen and Richard Neutra, join education reformers of the 1920s and ’30s to soften the utilitarian approach of the previous decades. Their daylit rooms offer views outside with desks arranged in groups rather than in rows."

     While our desks still had the holes that ink wells for dip pens would have sat, they were long gone. We progressed from pencil to fountain pen in standard 2 (1962). Ball point pens weren't successfully marketed until later in the sixties.
     • Visubversa 3.2.1

       9 August 2023 at 12:34 pm

       Quite right – in New Zealand, the school "rooms" that only had high windows were assembly halls/multipurpose rooms that were also used for drama, films and sports, this necessitating high windows only which could be more effectively shaded.
     • ianmac 3.2.2

       9 August 2023 at 1:05 pm

       My schoolroom in the 40s had high windows. There were many schools with old rooms so built, while newer ones gradually replaced with openness. I think the big wall-windows opening to verandahs had something to do with fighting Tb.

       My point anyway was that new "threats" had to be countered with strict resistance in this case for political gain. Interesting that Luxon has not consulted with teacher unions.

       NZ by the way sits at 7th in the World on Pisa scales. Not a disaster at all.
       • ianmac 3.2.2.1

         9 August 2023 at 2:09 pm

         PS: The classrooms at Christchurch Boys High in the 50s had no-see windows.
4. SPC 4

   9 August 2023 at 10:34 am

   Pressure does funny things to people.

   Exhibit A

   South Africa

   19 forwards (only 2 hookers, 5 props, 4 locks, 2 utilities, 6 loose forwards – one the injured captain Kolisi)

   and 14 backs (4 half backs/4 wingers 6 for the other 4 positions).

   It appears that one of the half backs and 2 of the loose forwards/utilities will be injured – and replaced by Dweba (hooker), Pollard (1st 5) and Am (midfield) when they are fit to return.
   • Shanreagh 4.1

     9 August 2023 at 10:48 am

     Is it just womens sports or womens' sports teams with men in them that are a no-no for discussion here on TS?

     I thought we did not run a sports talkback here?

     Got no problem as long as it is OK to talk about both, particularly the importance of women playing against women and especially when this is in 'fledgling' sports teams or individual sports such as track & field.
     • SPC 4.1.1

       9 August 2023 at 1:29 pm

       The Sweden and USA game was discussed on 7 August and before that the World Cup event on 20 July and then the later Norway vs New Zealand game on DR.
5. PsyclingLeft.Always 5

   9 August 2023 at 10:38 am

   Lowrie said Greater Auckland had crunched numbers to show that for the cost of both the light rail and recently announced second harbour crossing, the city could get 300 kilometres of surface light rail.

   "We're talking a substantial network you could deliver for going for that surface option."

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/495404/now-not-the-time-to-lodge-land-designation-for-auckland-light-rail-board-decides

   Ah…maybe Im missing some crucial info here?As in, why isnt this being looked at. Seriously…
6. Shanreagh 6

   9 August 2023 at 10:42 am

   Quick question, well quick-ish

   If the Greens get to form a coalition, other than for confidence & supply, are the policies that are coming out those that will form part of the discussions or are there back pocket policies that the electorate does not know about?

   This relates to the widely held view that the selfID schemozzle was part of an agreement by The Greens with Labour. That other parties hand-waved this through does not derogate from the concept of where this came from in the first place.

   We have had the happenings at Albert Park where Green-involved people were part of a thugs charter to disrupt peaceful, mainly women, from listening to a pro women speaker. Women have been on the back foot ever since.

   I dread to think of a re-run in a couple of months time where intolerant and emboldened people once again try to stop others from listening to a speaker. This speaker, despite what many have said here, is not in cahoots with the devil or Nazis or fascists. She seems to be able to speak in other countries where antis are kept well back.

   So as this came from a No Debate Greens coalition policy (so it is said/rumoured) are there other ideas like this that are not going to be shared with the general public but may form part of a coalition deal?
   • weka 6.1

     9 August 2023 at 11:04 am

     seems unlikely to me given both the Greens and Labour have strongly ideologically committed MPs on gender identity. Why would there need to be a secret deal when they both were going to support self ID anyway?
     • Corey 6.1.1

       9 August 2023 at 12:55 pm

       Agreed. It's no secret where any of Labour or Greens Mps stand, they are quite open and passionate about this and while I think it comes from a good place of wanting to help people and not exclude people, I think their tendency to shut down and any nuanced conversation on gender can be deeply unhelpful, the emotionally charged rhetoric can be so toxic that both sides often just end up not hearing each other and slagging each other off and standing in their corners rather than having nuanced conversations and finding some kind of compromise or common ground.

       That said, this election is a choice between an all out conservative and neoliberals economic assault on every facet of NZ life from an economic class war all the way up to interfering in the courts and burning all environmental legislation.

       There's so much at stake at this election. I'll be party voting Green for the second time (first time in 2017) and hoping against hope for a Labour/green/Maori govt and I'll be voting based off the greens policy's so I'd expect the greens to use those policies as their basis of negotiations and I'm certain they will
       • CAnker the pig fucker 6.1.1.1

         9 August 2023 at 7:21 pm

         "the emotionally charged rhetoric can be so toxic that both sides often just end up not hearing each other and slagging each other off and standing in their corners rather than having nuanced conversations and finding some kind of compromise or common ground." Corey @ 6.1.1.

         Actually, I have to say, the tras started it. I have always supported LGB and I still do. It was only when I saw how the trans rights activists shut down debate that I pricked up my ears. Then I started to listen and read and what I discovered about the T and Q made me very concerned
       • Visubversa 6.1.1.2

         9 August 2023 at 9:19 pm

         Looks like the UK Green Party is having its problems with gender ideology.

         "The Greens have swallowed transgender ideology, and purged dissenters with enthusiasm. Deputy leader Zack Polanski has suggested that anyone who takes a contrary view to the party’s policies on trans rights – specifically those members who claim that trans women are men and trans men are women – should not have a place in the Greens. He is unequivocal:

         ‘I’m really clear that if you want to misgender someone then that is transphobic, and transphobia is not welcome in the Green party.’

         No one, it seems, is safe in the Green party if they don’t toe the line on gender."

         https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/are-the-greens-more-interested-in-trans-rights-than-saving-the-planet/?fbclid=IwAR2MStjzu55USTWMn8g6m9428JkyY3uZkiPr2vq7vUcnxeEvm67JyGexiB0
         • weka 6.1.1.2.1

           9 August 2023 at 10:34 pm

           yeah, but they're the people who came up with a definition of women being non-men. In a special class of their own, those ones.

           We can be grateful that the NZ Greens are more garden variety gender ideologists (some of them anyway).
           • weka 6.1.1.2.1.1

             9 August 2023 at 10:39 pm

             Plus, Aimee Challenor.
     • Shanreagh 6.1.2

       10 August 2023 at 4:46 pm

       Yes I realise that. My question was though……

       If the Greens get to form a coalition, other than for confidence & supply, are the policies that are coming out those that will form part of the discussions or are there back pocket policies that the electorate does not know about?

       Are there items that are not known to the electorate and will not be known to the electorate for this election that will form part of The Greens negotiating stance similar to what Self ID is rumoured to have been.

       [Ok, I let you run this earlier because it was easily addressed as a general principle above. But since you brought it up again. You appear to be claiming that the Greens 1) had a secret policy on self ID before an election and 2) that policy was part of a deal with Labour in post-election negotiations. You claim that this is widely believed. Please provide some evidence for this now. – weka]
       • weka 6.1.2.1

         10 August 2023 at 4:51 pm

         mod note.
       • weka 6.1.2.2

         14 August 2023 at 11:41 am

         additional mod note for clarity. I require evidence for your claims for these three things,

         1. the Greens had a secret policy on self ID before an election
         2. that policy was part of a deal with Labour in post-election negotiations.
         3. that this is widely believed

         If you can't or won't provide evidence you can retract all or any of these claims.

         You are in premod until this is sorted fully. Which means you cannot comment on site until then.
         • Shanreagh 6.1.2.2.1

           15 August 2023 at 9:51 am

           The Greens negotiating stance similar to what Self ID is rumoured to have been.

           Please note the word 'rumoured'.

           From you:

           1. the Greens had a secret policy on self ID before an election
           2. that policy was part of a deal with Labour in post-election negotiations.
           3. that this is widely believed

           As I can no longer find the rumours, some were on here about the Greens support for self ID and how it came about as a policy that the electorate did not get the chance to examine, I wish to retract the statements as expressed above.

           [of course I noted the word ‘rumoured’. This is exactly the problem with your comments. You cannot spread rumours on TS about political parties, especially during an election campaign.

           Honestly, I’m surprised I have to point this out. Stop and think about it. If we let people spread rumours, someone could say ‘I heard Shanreagh eats baby kittens for breakfast’, then a month later someone else says ‘it’s widely believed that Shanreagh kills and eats kittens’.

           We have robust debate here because it’s the best way to hash out political ideas, processes and events, and robust debate depends on people being truthful and being able to distinguish fact from opinion and both of those from unsubstantiated rumour.

           I’ve just banned someone until well after the election for doubling down on what amounts to unsubstantiated rumour, and you got pretty close to reasserting your claim despite you having zero evidence.

           You tried to run lines here that the Green Party lie to the electorate by ommission and might be doing that again this election, and that somehow Labour are in on it because the two parties discuss secret policy in post-election negotiations and agree on something but don’t write it in their governance document. This is a serious accusation of two political parties.

           As I said originally, there was no need for a secret agreement because both parties were fully on board with self ID legislation. If you wanted to know how the GP developed their self ID position, all you had to do was ask. Instead you chose to rumourmonger about the Greens in what appears now to be a pattern from you. This has to stop. There are plenty of legitimate critiques to be made about the Greens without making stuff up. If you are unclear on where the line is between criticism and slur politics, then please ask. -weka]
           • weka 6.1.2.2.1.1

             15 August 2023 at 11:08 am

             mod note.
             • Shanreagh …

               15 August 2023 at 11:50 am

               Thanks Weka.

               As a woman fighting my whole life to improve the lot of women and my mother before me I do look askance at legislation that affects us.

               I accept your view that Self ID was to be found in policies prior to the election…..I assume this is what you mean. How else could we know about it.

               and agree on something but don’t write it in their governance document.

               My assumption was wrong therefore that the agreements included policies like 'no debate/self ID that had not gone out to the electorate prior to the election.

               Please accept my apologies.
               • weka …

                 15 August 2023 at 12:13 pm

                 I accept your view that Self ID was to be found in policies prior to the election…..I assume this is what you mean. How else could we know about it.

                 I haven't said that, and please don't make assumptions especially about my words when I am moderating. Just ask if you are unclear.

                 As I explained below, parties form policy during the three year term, not just at elections.

                 In order for me to know if the GP had formed formal policy ahead of an election (which one?), I would have to research that, and then I could provide the evidence. But I haven't done that, and I don't know whether it is true or not, hence I am not making that claim.

                 You are the one that is raising the issue, it's on you to do that work, not me.

                 What I am more clear on is that, imo, it doesn't make sense to say there was a secret deal in post-election negotiations, because both parties were on the same page, why would they need a secret deal? I would be wrong, it's just an informed opinion, anyone can prove me wrong with actual evidence.

                 I also think that accusing L and GP of having agreed to something in those negotiations that they didn't put in the document is hugely problematic. We're talking about whole teams of people on both sides. Do you really think that L/GP are doing handshake deals we don't know about? The political risk to them both of that being leaked is enough to make it extremely unlikely, without even looking at whether those parties would act unethically in this way.
           • Shanreagh 6.1.2.2.1.2

             15 August 2023 at 11:19 am

             Thanks Weka.
           • Shanreagh 6.1.2.2.1.3

             15 August 2023 at 11:42 am

             I am of the era where unexplained/unmentioned/unvoted for policies had a very bad effect on the country…viz the neo lib stuff. This was not explictly set out in any election policies and yet was brought in very early on and has had a terrible affect on NZ. Possibly a case where incremental policy work on the various proposals may have got rid of the fish-hooks, had this been offered.

             I rate the no debate /Self ID and its known affects on the rights of women to be in this category. I did not know about the Greens or Labour having policies that went out to the electorate on self ID before the election, I do know that those who tried, seemingly to us, at the very last minute to ask that the changes to the BDM bill be amended got short shrift from the select committee. I do know that SUFW had to go to the Courts to get a ruling that discussing changes to BDM was not hate speech, so they could hold meetings prior to the select committee.

             So it seems other people than just me thought this no debate/self ID had come from nowhere. I certainly would not have included The Greens in any of my voting plans last election or before had I known I was voting for some thing that had the possibility to affect women in such a bad way. But clearly I did not read their manifestos or election policies closely enough.

             Coalition agreements are held close to the chest and are not campaigned on before elections, more's the pity.

             https://www.parliament.nz/media/7554/labour_greens_cooperation_agreement-1.pdf

             My wish is to know what any party to a coalition agreement might contain. So the bottom lines.

             Bearing in mind what has happened in the past my wish is not hard to justify. And it does come down to trust when an elector assigns the negotiating of a coaliton agreement sight unseen when voting for a particular party.
             • weka …

               15 August 2023 at 12:05 pm

               This is a good point about the changes in the 80s that brought in neoliberalism. Different electoral system, but my memory is that the changes happened very fast and that out FPP system allowed for this. I'm not sure how easy it would be to do that now. There was other precedent eg Muldoon overriding the High Court on the Clyde Dam. It would be interesting to go back and see what parties were saying the relevant election campaigns.

               My understanding about the BDMRR Bill is this,

               • all parties voted for the changes re self-ID (so why single out the Greens?)
               • there was a problem with the select committee process in that they tried to put the self ID change through as a routine thing rather than doing due process
               • whether that's because the L/G MPs believed it was a routine thing, or because they knew there would be objections and so tried to put it through quietly, or both, I don't know
               • they were unable to do that, and the Bill stalled.

               There is certainly a great deal of criticism to be made of both L and GP on that. If you want to tie that back to election campaigns, then you will need to do the mahi of establishing what actually happened.

               On the GP side, they develop policy via the membership, it seems unlikely but not impossible that they 'hid' the development of this process on self ID from the wider membership. But again, if anyone wants to argue about what happened, it needs actual evidence.

               My own view is that for both L and GP, self ID is an anomaly with regards to how they normally operate and the positions they take (hence I don't buy the argument that if they can be sex denialist on this then they can't be trusted on anything else that relies on science).

               Afaik, positions and policy are not only developed and presented in election year. Obviously that would make governing very difficult. In the three year term, parties are involved with policy that arises as needed. I don't think it's realistic to expect that only policy presented in an election campaign can be worked on in the following term. What can be done is that scrutiny can be brought to bear on positions and policies that arise during the term.

               My wish is to know what any party to a coalition agreement might contain. So the bottom lines.

               That's not possible either. Parties need to see how many votes/MPs they get, what happens in the election campaign, what parties are involved in the post-election negotiations and so on.

               In the GP, it's the members that have the say on adopting any coalition or other deal that is negotiated. That's because of the commitment to democratic process within the party. The MPs and campaign managers cannot pre-empt that.

               And negotiation is just that. The GP could say that a climate Ministry is a bottom line, but then Labour offer them something else that is a better result for ensuring good climate action. It would be insane to lock themselves into positions ahead of the election and wouldn't serve governance.

               What can be done is that parties can signal which policies and positions are important.
               • Shanreagh …

                 21 August 2023 at 12:53 pm

                 Weka, I have read this, thank you.

                 Is this what I was to do?

                 What can be done is that parties can signal which policies and positions are important.

                 Yes I agree with this, do you think this is likely? How would we influence this for the good to encourage this signalling in advance of the election?

                 This is a good point about the changes in the 80s that brought in neoliberalism. Different electoral system, but my memory is that the changes happened very fast and that out FPP system allowed for this. I'm not sure how easy it would be to do that now.

                 I am not sure that I agree wholeheartedly with this. I think a concept of moving to neo lib actions or other adverse and unheralded changes could happen now as it did then. Labour just took its win and ran with it…….Labour could have taken it's win back in 2020 and run with it…..some of us are saying more's the pity it did not but we still had Covid and I think are used to working with other in a MMP arrangement even having a FPP type 'win'.

                 In fact I think despite all that was facing us Labout did squander, to an extent, its popularity and could have rolled back, or signalled a roll back of the more pernicious neo lib stuff such a high energy prices etc.

                 Hopefully this will enable my comments to come out of moderation.

                 I note some very moderate ones today re the propserity church have been deleted. Why is this?
                 • weka …

                   21 August 2023 at 8:23 pm

                   Hi Shanreagh. You’re still in premod because it’s taken so much of my moderation time in recent times to get you to attend to issues. It’s easier for me to read each comment and release it.

                   Today was unusual in that I haven’t been round as much, mostly your comments are released within and hour or less.

                   None of your comments today have been deleted. The only time I delete comments is if someone is ignoring a bolded moderation request and they are in premod. In that case I move comments that aren’t a response to moderation to Spam until the person responds. We find that it lessens the propensity to post and run.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     23 August 2023 at 12:10 pm

                     Can you indicate which exactly pieces of the moderation I have yet to respond to please and I will do so. Thanks

                     I had thought I had done this but clearly I have not.

                     I do not want to be an irritation.
                   • weka []

                     23 August 2023 at 2:56 pm

                     there’s nothing else to respond to. You are still in moderation so that I can see your comments in as they arrive, rather than having to deal with them reactively via moderation later.

                     From what I can see you have been posting more carefully, which I appreciate. If that continues I will remove premod at some point. But I haven’t seen comments in the areas where there have been problems yet.
   • Visubversa 6.2

     9 August 2023 at 12:38 pm

     And the speaker has recently won a monetary settlement and an apology from a UK media company that stated that she had supported the Nazi salute given by the bunch of kids at one of the Australian venues. She should sue a few of the equivalents here.
     • weka 6.2.1

       9 August 2023 at 1:41 pm

       who was that? I link would help.
       • CAnker the pig fucker 6.2.1.1

         9 August 2023 at 7:23 pm

         Kellie Jay. I go find a link now.
       • Sabine 6.2.1.2

         9 August 2023 at 7:29 pm

         https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1687177746680541184
         • Shanreagh 6.2.1.2.1

           10 August 2023 at 4:47 pm

           Hooray.
   • Doctor Whom 6.3

     9 August 2023 at 5:21 pm

     Flying across the world to ensure the tomato sauce squirter is brought to justice?
     • Anne 6.3.1

       9 August 2023 at 7:07 pm

       

       Planning a "protest" outside a district court on the day her tomato juice assailant is due to appear? Purely coincidental. Of course she's not hankering for all the attention she will receive if there's another counter protest – preferably with a little bit of violence thrown in for good measure. (sarc)

       The best thing would be for no-one to turn up to any counter protest – at least not outside the District Court. She would have come all this way to NZ for nothing. Imagine the chagrin.
       • CAnker the pig fucker 6.3.1.1

         9 August 2023 at 7:24 pm

         I don't think Kellie Jay will mind. There will be a lot of women who turn up to speak
       • Sabine 6.3.1.2

         9 August 2023 at 7:33 pm

         She will be here for the hearing considering that she was the victim of a most cowardly attack.

         Again, just for those that really think that assaulting a whole lot of women in a park is a kind, nice, tolerant and progressive thing to do, NZ – Aotearoa is/was lucky to now not be known as the country where mobs egged by media, sitting MPs, and celebrities stomp women to death. As it is this country is currently only known as the country where prostate having people bash old women, trample a few others and throw liquids about.

         So yes, PP will be here, free of any charges, while her assaulter is answering the courts about their behavior.
         • CAnker the pig fucker 6.3.1.2.1

           9 August 2023 at 7:35 pm

           100% Sabine
           • Shanreagh 6.3.1.2.1.1

             10 August 2023 at 4:50 pm

             Agree. It is not PP who is in the wrong here.
         • Anne 6.3.1.2.2

           9 August 2023 at 9:23 pm

           
     • Shanreagh 6.3.2

       10 August 2023 at 4:49 pm

       Sounds like a plan as she would likely be required to give evidence and she has said before that she is sad that the chance for NZers to hear her was denied them.

       Let us just hope that the Govt/commentators do not play silly bxxxxrs this time and that normal policing is resumed.
7. arkie 7

   9 August 2023 at 10:46 am

   Labour has announced legislation to protect parts of the Hauraki gulf but will not be able to pass it before the election. Once again the lack of urgency around protecting our environment is worrying but it is good to see action being taken now none-the-less:

   Prime Minister Chris Hipkins announced the plan at Tamaki Yacht Club in Auckland on Wednesday morning, alongside Conservation Minister Willow-Jean Prime, and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Rachel Brooking.

   "The Hauraki Gulf — Tīkapa Moana – is an absolute treasure and needs to be protected for the enjoyment of future generations," Hipkins said. "We know action is needed now. Today's announcement follows years of careful work and extensive consultation, and strikes a good balance."

   Prime said some protection areas would be covered by a "high protection area" category, with strong restrictions while also recognising kaitiakitanga and other tangata whenua cultural practices.

   The new legislation would set up 12 such areas, along with five new seafloor areas to preserve seafloor habitats with bans on bottom-contact fishing methods.

   As usual the Greens have been calling for this since ages ago:

   The Green Party has long held a policy of phasing out harmful fishing practices in the Gulf, and banning bottom trawling on all seamounts – mountains under the sea.

   In a statement, the party's Oceans and Fisheries spokesperson Eugenie Sage welcomed the announcement but urged the government to make it a first step of many.

   "For decades, successive governments have allowed overfishing, sediment pollution, and destructive fishing practices to degrade the health of the Gulf, despite repeated calls and pressure from the community and mana whenua for change," she said.

   "Our biggest disappointment is that this has come so late in the term. It is good to see a commitment to introduce legislation to establish these new protected areas, but very disappointing it won't become law before the election."

   She said the Ministerial Advisory Committee on Sea Change had raised concerns about a lack of urgency three years ago, and the proposed legislation did not need to wait until the final weeks of the Parliamentary term.

   "People want bottom trawling stopped to protect the seabed and the seafloor species. The time is now to make this happen. This is even more urgent when the biosecurity threat of Caulerpa seaweed is spread through trawling."

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/495410/labour-announces-hauraki-protection-plan-covering-18-percent-of-gulf
   • Shanreagh 7.1

     9 August 2023 at 10:51 am

     The Greens may have forgotten how the country was in thrall to Covid and that we haven't actually had three years but 18 months at the most.

     A welcome policy announcement from Labour. Hipkins said…….

     "We know action is needed now. Today's announcement follows years of careful work and extensive consultation, and strikes a good balance."
     • arkie 7.1.1

       9 August 2023 at 10:59 am

       That Hipkins quote is in my post.

       I am intrigued by how you experience the passage of time though, 2020 was only 18 months ago you say?
       • weka 7.1.1.1

         9 August 2023 at 11:06 am

         She means 18 months of policy time because we lost so much governing during the first years of the pandemic. I think this is true. However, if the Greens developed the policy, then Labour didn't have to do the work, so it's doesn't make sense in this case?
8. observer 8

   9 August 2023 at 10:49 am

   A new NZ survey has been released by the Guardian, including the usual opinion poll Qs but also a lot of detail on specific issues – much more than in the usual TV polls.

   The transport question is revealing: no loud lobby for roads, a big majority preferring public transport investment.

   https://essentialreport.co.nz/
   • Shanreagh 8.1

     9 August 2023 at 10:57 am

     That is an excellent report with plenty of meat.
     • Dennis Frank 8.1.1

       9 August 2023 at 2:40 pm

       Yeah. First, it has a sufficient database to be credible. Second, Labour comes in below 30%. Third, National is ahead by more than the margin of error. Fourth, NZF come in over the threshold. Fifth, TMP is about half what the average of other recent polls suggested.

       Volatility of public mood produces fluctuations from time to time but it increasingly looks like commercial polling design & technique produce different `publics', even if those differences are only a few percent…
       • observer 8.1.1.1

         9 August 2023 at 5:08 pm

         It's much less about the party vote than the detailed data below the surface. Horse-race headlines alone don't tell us much.

         On policy issues, there is no evidence at all of a public mood swing to the right.

         Example: asked about inequality, 5 times more say it’s increasing than decreasing. That’s a clear signal to policy-makers. One that National/ACT have no interest in addressing, at all.

         Support for the NZ opposition is only an ill-defined desire for a better tomorrow, an anti-incumbency mood which is the same or worse in countries with right-wing governments (Exhibit A: the UK).
         • Dennis Frank 8.1.1.1.1

           9 August 2023 at 6:21 pm

           I agree re anti-incumbency mood, & your policy point too. I still think Labour have left their run too late but National seems surprisingly inept too so the old tweedledumb & tweedledumber thing has us trending into hung parliament…
   • ianmac 8.2

     9 August 2023 at 2:38 pm

     Yes. Thanks Observer. Interesting. If questions were asked on a telephone survey it would be impossible to think of an answer, but I guess online would be more time to consider and more credible.

     Pity that the huge drop in Youth crime stats from 2013 to 2022 are not published more freely, or the General Crime Stats for that matter, then people would be less concerned and Opposition leaders would look foolish.

     NZ Pisa Education tracking has NZ at 7th out of about a hundred countries so not nearly as dire as Opposition would have us believe, and so the concerns expressed in the survey would be lower.
9. pat 9

   9 August 2023 at 11:25 am

   Reflections on a foreign country

   An excellent interview from some weeks ago. Author Denis Welch discusses his recent book about Norman Kirk

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018898704/book-on-new-zealand-s-lost-leader-norman-kirk
   • Richard 9.1

     9 August 2023 at 10:25 pm

     I was 18 when Kirk died. I still think this was a real 'sliding doors' moment for NZ.

     What Muldoon have still won in 1975 – against Kirk ? Not in my view. Kirk had a lot of gravitas, he really suited the position of PM.

     Would Muldoon have been ditched by National by1978 ? Maybe. Perhaps he would have won then. But NZ would have been quite a different place by then.

     I am no longer a Leftie, but I think Kirk's passing had a huge impact on our politics, and the paths taken.
     • Anne 9.1.1

       9 August 2023 at 10:59 pm

       " I think Kirk's passing had a huge impact on our politics, and the paths taken."

       I agree Richard. He ended up transcending party politics with the depth of his commanding presence. It was apparent at the time of his untimely death expressed by so many thousands of NZers across the political spectrum..

       I recall a photo of Keith Holyoake standing alone at the airport watching the Hercules carrying Kirk's coffin depart for Christchurch. His grief was etched on his face.

       It was indeed fortunate for Muldoon that Kirk died when he did. There is no way he would have won in 1975 and Kirk would have been able to cement in a superannuation policy that would have have ensured the country’s fiscal security for many decades to come.
10. arkie 10

    9 August 2023 at 11:26 am

    The treasury report on housing makes it clear that private rents rise to match income increases. Landlords are able to institute increases that outpace inflation because of the dearth of public alternatives:

    The supply of dwellings relative to demand is a less prominent driver of house prices, but an important determinant of rents. Until recently rents in Hamilton Waikato had move broadly in line with, and at times slower than, incomes over a long period. Trends at a national level were similar. But since 2015, rents have increased sharply across the Hamilton Waikato region as population has grown faster than the supply of dwellings. The worsening availability and affordability of rentals has increased financial stress and homelessness.

    https://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/jp/assessment-housing-system-insights-hamilton-waikato-area

    Public Housing Futures is calling for significant government investment and an increase in the supply of public housing:

    • Urgently build and buy enough public homes to house the ‘true waitlist’ for good.
    • Embed a long-term commitment of increasing public housing to 20% of all homes by 2033 to house everyone.

    https://www.publichousingfutures.com/

    This is also part of the Greens policy on housing:

    "Right now, the massive cost of having a safe, warm home to live in is one of the main reasons why so many people are struggling to make ends meet. It is even worse for Māori, Pasifika and disabled children. Poor and expensive housing continues to be a major factor.

    “We need urgent action to boost incomes, which this Budget also falls short on. But income support alone won’t be enough. We also need long-term investment to significantly increase the Government’s building programme. That needs to happen alongside action to empower community housing providers and iwi to build more homes.

    “Right now, the biggest barrier to making sure everyone has a warm, safe, and dry home is the government itself. It comes down to this: if the government doesn’t raise enough money – for example by taxing wealth or capital gains – it cannot pay for the services and investments we all need.

    “And so, if people want a government that will invest in a massive house building programme to ensure everyone has a safe place to live and put down roots, we need more Green MPs. The tools to lift every family and child out of poverty exist; the Government just needs to use them,” says Ricardo Menéndez March.

    https://www.greens.org.nz/long_term_commitment_needed_on_public_housing
    • arkie 10.1

      9 August 2023 at 2:37 pm

      Renters United president Geordie Rogers says low supply and high demand allow landlords to charge as much as their tenants can pay.

      "We don't have enough houses," Rogers said.

      "Every single time we get a pay rise it's immediately eaten up by the increased cost of rent, going straight to our landlords."

      The report also noted that mortgage rates only had a marginal impact on rents.

      "We consistently hear landlords saying the reason they're putting rent prices up is due to the increased costs they're taking on," he said.

      "A lot of the forecasting done by the Treasury shows that actually isn't the case, and rather landlords are setting rent prices at the maximum amount they can get."

      The report found rent prices were increasing at a faster rate than inflation. Rogers said it was clear landlords were benefiting from the lack of housing supply.

      "We know that the cost of renting a property is increasing faster than the cost put on to landlords," he said.

      "It clearly shows that landlords are setting rent prices as high as possible, and a lot of that comes down to the fact that we do not have enough houses."

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/495434/landlords-benefiting-from-lack-of-housing-supply-renters-united
11. roy cartland 11

    9 August 2023 at 11:57 am

    There's a Gordon Campbell up about this deal too, and it's well worth the 5min read.

    If a National/ACT government had negotiated the renewables deal with the giant investment firm BlackRock, it is safe to assume that we would be never hearing the end of it. Only National and Act, we would be being told, would have had the business nous and deal-making expertise….etc

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2023/08/gordon-campbell-on-the-blackrock-deal-and-banning-cellphones/
12. tc 12

    9 August 2023 at 12:55 pm

    Meanwhile Italy shocks banks with 40% windfall tax.
    • Sabine 12.1

      9 August 2023 at 1:18 pm

      Well, Italy elected a quite interesting person.
    • arkie 12.2

      9 August 2023 at 2:01 pm

      And then there's this in Aotearoa:

      The country's third biggest bank reported a net profit for the year ended June of $1.56 billion, up 6 percent on the year before, as it increased its lending and margins.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/495428/asb-bank-posts-record-1-point-56-billion-full-year-net-profit

      “A 10% levy on the banking sector’s record profits would raise over half a billion dollars which could be used to support people.

      “There are only political choices standing in the way of building the Aotearoa we need.

      https://www.greens.org.nz/tax_the_banks
      • tc 12.2.1

        9 August 2023 at 3:10 pm

        James Shaw nails it…indeed there's no better time than now.

        These Aussie banks are taking the piss both sides of the ditch.

        Albos making zero moves on the industry that values profit over people all laid out in a scathing royal commission draft report in 2018. No surprise there as it’s Aussies largest industry that financial sector.
13. Ed 13

    9 August 2023 at 3:59 pm

    A poll out by the Guardian has Labour under 30%.

    Interestingly, NZ First is over 5%.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/09/guardian-essential-poll-new-zealand-national-holds-clear-lead-over-labour-as-election-nears
    • observer 13.1

      9 August 2023 at 5:17 pm

      I linked to this above. Please look past the horse race, it's far more informative than that.

      A new government will be the most loathed since 1990. The survey you quote makes that clear, if you want to read it properly.

      Who supports National/ACT on climate change? 16%. That is the survey response saying the government is doing too much. Which is exactly NACT policy.

      16%! It won’t just be buyer’s remorse, it’ll be rage.
      • Sabine 13.1.1

        9 August 2023 at 7:35 pm

        They may loath National, but they wont' vote for Labour. Does that mean Labour is liked and appreciated by all?
    • weka 13.2

      9 August 2023 at 10:43 pm

      i'm not suggesting the guardian poll is completely fucked, but when it says that lab + greens is less than national in the 18-34 bracket, and that labour is more popular than national with boomers, that would suggest that the guardian poll is completely fucked.

      https://twitter.com/David_Cormack/status/1689037665906393088

      Thread and replies are worth a read.
      • weka 13.2.1

        9 August 2023 at 10:46 pm

        Put it this way, the number of people included in the Greens 18-34 was 35 and Greens 35-54 was 46. Given how biased the subset of people that answer polls is, this is basically noise. For Labour, we're talking 20 people difference for 18-43 vs 35-54. Ignore this poll

        https://twitter.com/adventuresofac5/status/1689040751395540992

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