Open mike 09/12/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 9th, 2021 - 317 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

317 comments on “Open mike 09/12/2021 ”

  • Comments are now closed

    • mary_a 1.1
      9 December 2021 at 9:19 am

      Thanks Gezzasmiley

      • Gezza 1.1.1
        9 December 2021 at 9:34 am

        You’re welcome, mary.

        I’ve now got four fluffy black baby pooklets with their cute big feet, only a few days old, just over the fence & 2m down the bank.

        Pooky built a sleeping nest there & spent the night hunkered down with the four of them.

        The 2 adults (both would be a year old or less, judging by their size & unscarred red head shields) don’t seem to mind me looking at their babies as long as I do it quietly & not too often, speak to them gently, & give them the occasional bread chunk to add to the seeds & plant roots they’re feeding the pooklets with.

        • alwyn 1.1.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 10:09 am

          I can remember an old theory that you could predict how big your dog was going to end up when an adult based on the size of the puppy's paws.

          If that works for birds as well I don't think you have pukeko chicks there Gezza. From the size of those feet I reckon that they are Dinornis Robustus and are going to end up about 3.5 metres high.

          They are certainly cute though.

  2. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2
    9 December 2021 at 6:37 am

    A tweet from Christopher Luxon.

    Could some of the grammar police on The Standard explain what the hell this means?

    Christopher Luxon

    National knows how to put aspiration, ambition, confidence, and mojo back into this country. We're not going to go play a small, fearful, inward-looking game. We will be out there in the world happening to our future, rather than letting the future happen to us.

    Is this corporate drivel what we can expect from the Natz?

    • Gezza 2.1
      9 December 2021 at 6:51 am

      Oh dear. That’s definitely Corporate Word Salad. Probably Waldorf Word Salad.

      Luxon will have folk even in the corporate world grinning at the pretentious nonsense of that one.

      Even the word mojo can’t possibly rescue that from well-deserved derision.

      So many mixed metaphors the mind boggles trying to picture what he’s promising to do to the country.

      Somebody else is going to have to script Luxon’s words if he wants to avoid being larfed at for every Twitter utterance.

      • observer 2.1.1
        9 December 2021 at 8:02 am

        Somebody else is going to have to script Luxon’s words if he wants to avoid being larfed at for every Twitter utterance.

        He doesn't seem to have seen any political comedy on screen, from "Yes Minister" to "The Thick of It" to "Veep" to dozens of other shows and movies.

        Which is fine, he's been busy working, but he sure needs to hire somebody who has. They can say "Er, Chris, that's a quote from The Office. So maybe we don't use it?".

      • Blazer 2.1.2
        9 December 2021 at 8:40 am

        Luke Malpass -another 'impartial ' journo…

        Already in the week since he was elected he has significantly dialled down the ‘corporatese’ that he can be inclined to slip into when he speaks for too long.

        Why Christopher Luxon's first question time was a success, but also showed Jacinda Ardern's extra gears | Stuff.co.nz

        • Gezza 2.1.2.1
          9 December 2021 at 8:57 am

          Malpass’s stuff’s often not very perceptive, imo – altho he obviously thinks it IS.

          I haven’t paid him much attention. You think he regularly shills for National?

          • lprent 2.1.2.1.1
            9 December 2021 at 11:19 am

            You think he regularly shills for National?

            Not really.

            To me, he feels more like he doesn’t understand NZ politics in any detail. No sense of a depth of NZ political history.

            I’d say that he either spent a lot of time in Australia or the UK growing up or as a journo. Or possibly a large academic background like Bryce Edwards (less likely).

            Either way, I get a sense of a lack of reality looking at NZ politics. What he describes often doesn’t marry up with my political instincts about what is possible or feasible. But does marry up with someone awkwardly looking at NZ politics through a book-learnt or remote framework.

            Mind you, having a external viewpoint is sometimes kind of useful. If only as satire.

            My guess is that he is either aussie or one of the kiwi kids who grew up there and worked over there. Tastes like an aussie,

          • roblogic 2.1.2.1.2
            9 December 2021 at 12:17 pm

            Malpass has ties to the NZ Initiative, a right wing "think tank" that does not disclose its funders. That's why he is soft on National and Act.

            https://twitter.com/rugbyintel/status/1468255172509929474?s=20

        • alwyn 2.1.2.2
          9 December 2021 at 10:18 am

          If you want to cheer yourself up go back and read Ardern's attempts at asking questions during her first couple of years. She tried to table a copy of the previous days edition of the Herald once and then what appeared to be an attempt to table the whole of the latest Budget Papers.

          It even reached the stage where she read out the primary question but then someone else from the Labour Party had to ask all the supplementary questions.

          She then dropped out of the roster of people asking questions for a very long time. Luxon is certainly very, very good by comparison.

          • Blazer 2.1.2.2.1
            9 December 2021 at 10:28 am

            Alwyn,I say Alwyn….don't live in the past!

            Luxon has built himself up,now he needs to…deliver.

            We know he lied about turning Air NZ around…he will be found out as just another very mediocre ,happy clapper with no 'joie de vivre',no charisma at all.

            Has as much personality as a boiled…egg.

            • alwyn 2.1.2.2.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 3:56 pm

              "We know he lied about turning Air NZ"

              Well we certainly know that you are a stranger to the truth after that remark. Luxon joined Air New Zealand in May 2011 and became CEO in June 2012. He resigned in June 2019.

              In the FYs before he was CEO the profit before tax (in millions) starting from 2008 and going to 2012 was 304, 7, 123, 73, and 94. Then the numbers were as follows, running from 2013 until 2019, 256, 358, 474, 663, 527, 540 and 382.

              I would say that any claim made that he had turned the company around would be justified. What makes you someone who can naysay that? When did you ever run a very large business?

              The figures are all from the AIR Annual Reports. They are readily available on line.

              • Blazer …
                9 December 2021 at 4:54 pm

                Alwyn,I say Alwyn…comprehension…do you understand what 'turn around' means pertaining to a business?

                Christopher Luxon had big shoes to fill when he became chief executive at Air New Zealand in 2013.

                Out the door went "rock star CEO" Rob Fyfe, credited with turning Air New Zealand around after a taxpayer bail-out in 2001, and snaffling numerous awards for best airline in the world. It was praised for improving its financial performance while all about it other airlines were losing theirs.

                In came Luxon, who'd spent 18 years at Unilever — a consumer giant with a presence in houses across the globe with its brands like Dove, Rexona, Lipton and Sunsilk'-Stuff.

                • alwyn …
                  9 December 2021 at 7:08 pm

                  You really don't think that those profit figures for the years 2009 to 2012 were acceptable do you? The total profit in those 4 years was less than any of the years in Luxon's time except his first and less than half the best one.

                  And for your information the vast majority of the Airline awards were after Luxon took over. That included all the significant Airline of the year wins. Why don't you look them up? They are listed on the AIR site.

                  You really are as ignorant as you appear from your comments, aren't you?

                  I don't plan to answer any more of your comments in future. They are based on total ignorance and a completely closed mind on your part.

                  Bye bye baby goodbye.

                  • SPC …
                    9 December 2021 at 11:27 pm

                    You don't think the high interest rates here 2008, global GFC and earthquakes may have played a part in the low profit figures in those pre Luxon years. Anyone coming in afterward was going to realise higher profits. Anyone.

                    • alwyn …
                      10 December 2021 at 11:43 am

                      If you think that these things have had a major effect then you will have to demonstrate them.

                      If these did cause the great boom in profits you should find the same thing happened to other airlines in the region. For example Qantas had the following profit numbers from 2008 to 2019. They were, in Australian millions, 970, 123, 116, 249, (244), 6, (2,843), 560, 1029, 853, 980, 891.

                      Thus, while AIR were booming from 2013 to 2015 in the Luxon years, Qantas were struggling and had an enormous loss in 2014.

                      Qantas finally got back to 2008 profitability in 2016 while AIR had doubled their 2008 result by then.

                      Why should AIR have boomed while Qantas struggled if anyone could have done well?

                      As for Earthquakes. Why on earth should the quakes in the South Island really affect Air NZ? If Mangere had been put out of action for years it would but not anywhere else.

                      I don't understand the bit about interest rates in 2008. Why would that go right through the next 4 years? If you mean interest rates during the whole period you will have to demonstrate that they really were higher, in the markets where AIR would have borrowed. I have seen no evidence of any major effect between rates in 2009 – 2012 and rates in 2013 -2018. The huge drop in rates didn't really start happening until 2018.

                      So no, I don't accept your throwaway lines unless you can really demonstrate they happened and also explain why they didn't show up in the same way at a comparable airline like Qantas.

                    • SPC …
                      10 December 2021 at 4:46 pm

                      The Qantas figures prove my point.

                      Note first that they did not decline in 2008 as ours did – we had high interest in 2007-8 causing a recession (we had finance company failures before the GFC).

                      Economics impact on New Zealanders travel overseas and tourists here as well.

                      As our economy and the world economy improved out of the GFC and the earthquakes …

                    • alwyn …
                      10 December 2021 at 6:48 pm

                      I don't understand your claim. You say "Note first that they did not decline in 2008 as ours did". However Air NZ profit before tax rose in 2008 from $269 m in 2007 to $304 m in 2008.

                      It fell in 2009, just as did Qantas.

                      However although both Air New Zealand both had dreadful years from 2009 until 2012 AIR recovered in 2013 and passed their 2008 number in 2014. Qantas did not reach their 2008 result until 2016.

                      I would say that the comparison demonstrates that under Luxon AIR did pull out of a hole that Qantas did not manage for another couple of years.

                    • SPC …
                      10 December 2021 at 7:04 pm

                      They had $970M profit in 2008, just as good as the good years a few years ago…

                      Our high interest rates in 2007-8 led to a recession here, we were then hit by the GFC 2008-9, then by the earthquakes – it is to Fyfe's credit that Air NZ survived those years and bounced back – Luxon had the easy part of the job.

          • observer 2.1.2.2.2
            9 December 2021 at 10:49 am

            during her first couple of years.

            That would be a good reason not to make her leader then. So they didn't.

            I love how you guys jump shamelessly from "Luxon's the thrusting CEO, the leader we've been waiting for, the right man at the right time" to "oh give him a cuddle he's just a new kid at school, don't be so mean!"

            It took less than a week.

          • Gezza 2.1.2.2.3
            9 December 2021 at 11:03 am

            Thursdays the Party Leaders are usually absent from the House. So the Deputy-Leaders lead with the Questions & Answers during Question Time.

            Might have a watch of the Parliamentary tv channel to see Willis does up against Robertson. Shouldn’t think he’ll have much of a problem with her. He’ll have a few quips about her abd/or National already up his sleeve, I expect.

            • Enough is Enough 2.1.2.2.3.1
              9 December 2021 at 4:37 pm

              Why do you think having quips up his sleeve is a good thing? Doesn't the juvenile nature of question time and general debate just depress you? It sure does me.

              They are there to do a job and should vigorously debate each other on policy. But the majority of the time they are doing nothing more intellectually challenging than name calling.

              It is complete and utter rubbish from both sides of the house, which if it happened in any kind of work environment, you'd sack the lot of them

              • Gezza …
                9 December 2021 at 7:58 pm

                Why do you think having quips up his sleeve is a good thing? Doesn’t the juvenile nature of question time and general debate just depress you? It sure does me.

                Robertson’s a bit of a smart arse, he’s always quick with quips, but they’re often quite sophisticated & funny (even his targets probly smile) rather than nasty or straight out insulting put downs.

                Yes the juvenile nature of Question Time & General Debates are irritating; as taxpayers we should all probly be annoyed. They’re a waste of their time & our money.

                They are there to do a job and should vigorously debate each other on policy. But the majority of the time they are doing nothing more intellectually challenging than name calling.

                Tru dat.

                It is complete and utter rubbish from both sides of the house, which if it happened in any [other] kind of work environment, you’d sack the lot of them

                I’d give them a warning first, & make sure I had other workers ready to join up before I gave them those that didn’t comply the boot. That’s where the big problem getting this clown behaviour addressed lies. I don’t know if the other Parliamentary democracies we typically compare ourselves to are this childishly raucus.

                I gave up regularly watching Question Time & General Debates last year. Just too silly & generallybunedifying. But with new chums in the National leader & deputy leader slots it’s been worth a look.

                A health visitor turned up for a home interview just before Question Time so I missed most of Willis’s performance. I could see that she went after Poto Williams with her questions, not Robertson.

    • Nic the NZer 2.2
      9 December 2021 at 8:33 am

      Noam Chomsky has occasionally had the need to highlight, there exist some grammatically correct sentences which have no semantic meaning.

      "Colorless green trees sleep furiously" being his original example.

    • mac1 2.3
      9 December 2021 at 8:52 am

      "National: Happening to the Future"

      The billboards are in production for '23.

      Party conferences will henceforth be known as The Happening. Party policy will now be called Happenstance, and written accordingly.

      But, maybe not. We all know that 'S**t Happens'.

    • mary_a 2.4
      9 December 2021 at 9:28 am

      @ Tony Veitch (2) Re Christopher Luxon .. hey man, Chris wants to get our mojo back. Fab baby, fab.
      Can we expect him to morph into Austin Powers sometime soon?

    • lprent 2.5
      9 December 2021 at 11:29 am

      It is what drivellers say when they don’t have any hard plans or policies. Hardly surprising as the National caucus has been lurching around like and old zombie trying to grab fireflies for some time. There is little coherence in their existing policies. Basically they wasted the entire time since Bill English departed.

      It will take some time for National MPs and the party to coalesce around some centrist things that they agree on enough as a group to be convincing putting in front of the public – because that is the group that they must have to gain the treasury benches.

      The problem is that they have focused far too much on the vocal nutter fringes and brought them in as their noisiest active members as they try to stem the flow to Act. It is going to be hard for National to focus back on to the people who can vote in a government.

    • Treetop 2.6
      9 December 2021 at 1:48 pm

      the grammar police on The Standard are great, I use them.

      • In Vino 2.6.1
        9 December 2021 at 6:18 pm

        The grammar was not so bad in that drivel – the problem was with the convoluted, garbled content. Load of poppycock.

    • McFlock 2.7
      9 December 2021 at 1:49 pm

      National: knifing the future in the back before the future can knife them.

  3. Blade 3
    9 December 2021 at 6:54 am

    Watched ''The Project' last night to see if things have improved. They haven't. They interviewed Reuben Taipari of the Northland Border Control – you know, the people who secretly have been given legislative power while the rest of us smucks were told the government was still working on the border issue. The Project gave Taipari free reign. My, did the bro lap that up. However, he ran into strong headwinds in another interview with HDA. Heather had to point out the obvious to him. Something he didn't like:

    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/reuben-taipari-te-tai-tokerau-border-control-regional-coordinator-says-they-aim-not-to-hold-people-up-for-more-than-30-minutes/

    One thing that's becoming obvious to me is these roadblocks are going to be a flash point for violence. Anti vaxxers and red necks wanting a go. Jaded holiday makers just wanting get on with their long overdue holidays. Patience will be thin on the ground.

    Should things turn to custard, who is going to blink first -iwi, police or the government? In fact in such a senario you could call the election… Labour are OUT!

    • Alan 3.1
      9 December 2021 at 7:39 am

      No doubt other "check points" will spring up around the country with less Police resources to keep the peace. That will spell trouble for everyone.

    • observer 3.2
      9 December 2021 at 7:47 am

      "Jaded holiday makers just wanting get on with their long overdue holidays"

      In NZ: People leaving Auckland may have a slight delay at a checkpoint.

      In England: From Monday people must work from home.

      Boris Johnson is holding his press conference right now, announcing major new restrictions because Omicron is spreading so fast.

      Ignore the world news if you wish. The virus never does.

      We'll be having a very different conversation next week. See you then.

      • Blade 3.2.1
        9 December 2021 at 9:54 am

        The world news has nothing to do with NZ check points. The English parliament hasn't legislated race based powers on the sly to control their population.

        ''In NZ: People leaving Auckland may have a slight delay at a checkpoint.''

        You obviously didn't listen to the interview. A POSSIBLE 15-20 minute delay with cars piled up behind you is not a slight delay.

        Another thing you don't seem to Comprend is the seriousness of this situation. It could be a spark to ignite things far worse. Then what? The Maori caucus has Labour by the balls. Iwi may tell the police to get stuffed. The police may retaliate.

        ''We'll be having a very different conversation next week. See you then.''

        If by that you mean I will be proven to have fussed over nothing, I hope you are right. I will be passing the Northland checkpoint and one in Tairawhiti. The last thing I want to see is beer gutted men and screaming women fighting on the side of the road.

        • mpledger 3.2.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 10:47 am

          In my personal opinion no Aucklander should consider going north (or anywhere else for that matter) for a holiday. Northland has so many variables from poverty, low health status, low access to advanced medical care that it is just a time bomb waiting to go off.

          I can understand why people from that area want to protect themselves, their families and everyone else in that area. As long as the police have oversight then I have no problem with it or who does it.

          But really, on one hand a 15 minute wait, on the other a disease that can kill people or leaves them with long term illnesses – it's hard to believe it's the 15 minute wait that is the problem here.

          • Dennis Frank 3.2.1.1.1
            9 December 2021 at 11:37 am

            hard to believe it's the 15 minute wait that is the problem here

            Akers have been fully trained in how to survive commuter delays. The norm in recent years has been 1-2 hours each way, right? So 15 mins will be a breeze. Barely time to scan their favourite vacuous social media site…

            • Lebleaux 3.2.1.1.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 3:15 pm

              But the wait will not be 15 minutes. Hone Harawira said this morning that they will process 10 cars at a time. If it takes 1 minute per car and cars arrive at 600/hour – no backlog. However the claim this morning was that, at peak, the road north handles 10,000 cars an hour. If this is true it will mean that after 4 hours the backlog will be some 37,600 cars, will stretch from Waipu back to Auckland and the delay will be more than 6 hours. Even if the volume is only 1000 cars per hour we have about 7km of backlog after 4 hours and a person entering the queue will crawl for a little over 2.5 hours. This exercise is unworkable and will come to grief.

              • Dennis Frank …
                9 December 2021 at 3:36 pm

                Well done. I wonder if anyone else has figured out the logistics like this? If not, someone ought to spread the word re alt holiday spots…

                • Blade …
                  9 December 2021 at 3:51 pm

                  Not only that, one talkback caller claimed one road block near his dwelling is surround by road works.

              • solkta …
                9 December 2021 at 4:24 pm

                The police have said they will not be stopping every car.

              • lebleaux …
                9 December 2021 at 7:14 pm

                Slight decimal point problem in my calc above. A 37,600 car backlog serviced at 600 cars per hour will take over 60 hours to clear

          • Shanreagh 3.2.1.1.2
            9 December 2021 at 1:31 pm

            Agree with this mpledger. Of course this sensible approach seems to be lost on many commentators. But then many are saying it is their 'right' to do this travel and 'b****r' the rest of you.

            As long as the police have oversight then I have no problem with it or who does it.

            But then that is the point isn't it? Those wanting to travel do have a problem "with these 'Maaris' " It is the very obvious elephant in the room. Would there be the same uproar if a whole lot of Pakeha bach owners closed off access to others once they had all arrived? Perhaps I am being too cynical. wink

            • Blade 3.2.1.1.2.1
              9 December 2021 at 2:27 pm

              ''As long as the police have oversight then I have no problem with it or who does it.''

              Well, what if iwi disagree with police ovesight in a given situation? Iwi can legally stop a vehicle. Does a dispute then become a matter of judicial review and judgement? As if iwi will wait around for that.

              Don't forget people going up North in planes and boats. I wonder if iwi will have people waiting for them? And what will those peoples legal status be regarding the right to stop travellers?

              ''But then many are saying it is their 'right' to do this travel and 'b****r' the rest of you.''

              But of course. That's what the traffic light system is about. And don't forget this government taking $150 million off taxpayers to help Maori vaccinate themselves. Next the government will allocate another $150 million hiring teams to act as 'Grooms of the Stool ' to help Northland Maori out.

              Peeni Henare in a rare moment of truth for this government, said: ''I don't know what else we can do to get Maori vaccinated. We have tried everything.'' Obviously that didn't go down well with his boss and the Maori caucus. And, Hey Presto!, soon Peeni was back on track blaming DHB for poor Maori vaccination rates. F..king disgusting.

          • Treetop 3.2.1.1.3
            9 December 2021 at 2:02 pm

            I heard on One News at midday 1000 health care vacancies in Auckland. To me that is motivating to stay home. No one wants a Covid Christmas or a Covid New Year.

            I am pleased that school will be over approx 15 December.

            Will school reopen on the usual date in 2022?

          • Jimmy 3.2.1.1.4
            9 December 2021 at 2:05 pm

            Aucklanders have not been allowed to leave Auckland sine 18th of August so they may argue the wait has been longer than 15 minutes. Why should I not travel to Northland as I am double vaxed and had a negative test.

            If Northlanders are concerned about the 'dirty' Aucklanders coming up….here's an idea….why don't they go and get the free vaccine? I realise they have only had around four months to do so, but if they cant get it done, please don't hold back the 90% of the country that has done the right thing.

            • Treetop 3.2.1.1.4.1
              9 December 2021 at 2:43 pm

              Covid is what is dirty. Once the health system falls over emergency workers and children will be the only ones to get health care.

              People need to think like that. The harsh reality of Covid.

              • roblogic …
                9 December 2021 at 4:31 pm

                Stay home then. But you and Labour deserve to lose the next election if you think Aucklanders will tolerate any more pernicious impositions of arbitrary rules, after they have already done everything right.

                It's not a sensible public health mandate any more, it's control freakery and political theatre and I am fscken sick of these games.

                If Labour continue this bullshit I will be forced to vote for change.

                • Treetop …
                  9 December 2021 at 9:56 pm

                  There is no avoiding a Covid wave through the entire country. Opening up on 15 December is a good date as schools will be closed.

        • Craig H 3.2.1.2
          9 December 2021 at 4:01 pm

          Like allowing NZDF to assist police? How racist…

    • bwaghorn 3.3
      9 December 2021 at 4:02 pm

      From the pictures I've seen of the auks migrating come xmas ,it should be possible to check them as they stop start for hours down the highway. !!

      • Blade 3.3.1
        9 December 2021 at 4:22 pm

        Lol..I like people who think outside the box. We could have bros on Harly's cruising the queues. They spot check motorists and ask for a supplementary koha. If a motorist gives koha they receive a large green sticker on the roof of their car. Hone will see the green sticker at the check point and say:'' Kapai, boy..you have paid your dues.The iwi thanks you. Don’t worry about that Covid nonsense.''

        Crikey, Aotearoa, the land of opportunity.

    • Sacha 3.4
      9 December 2021 at 7:11 pm

      their long overdue holidays

      It's a lethal pandemic. Get some perspective.

  4. Ad 4
    9 December 2021 at 7:10 am

    One seriously massive development likely to explode Wanaka into something unrecogniseable:

    Resource consent approved for massive Wanaka film studio development | Otago Daily Times Online News (odt.co.nz)

  5. Ad 5
    9 December 2021 at 7:51 am

    Minister Jackson should check out an actual Nazi likely to gain the Presidency of a country we know well, and whose father was an actual card-carrying Nazi Party member; Chile.

    Chilean presidential frontrunner’s father was member of Nazi party | Chile | The Guardian

    Chile was one of those South American countries with whole villages for Nazis.

    Colonia Dignidad – Wikipedia

    Maybe Minister Jackson should pop over to Chile and gain a bit of perspective on using the term, and see it in action in real life.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 5.1
      9 December 2021 at 8:15 am

      The same could be said about those fws on the right who talk about a communist tyranny in NZ. Remember the sign: 'She's a pretty communist,'? Zero understanding of what a communist is all about. Or even idiots who should know better comparing NZ with North Korea. 'Hermit kingdom . . .'

    • Blazer 5.2
      9 December 2021 at 8:16 am

      The West is O.K with Nazis running Chile….its the Socialists they abhor….like..Allende!

      • Ad 5.2.1
        9 December 2021 at 8:35 am

        There is no hive mind called The West. There are a few fools who believe that moral action by any nation against oppression is not possible … but moral laziness does that.

        What there is, is the following:

        Germany: AfD or Alternative fur Deuschland. Dominant in some eastern states.

        Spain: VOX

        Austria: Freedom Party. Previously coalition partner in government.

        France: National Front. High chance of gaining the Presidency this time.

        Sweden: Sweden Democrats

        Estonia: Conservative People's Party of Estonia

        Poland: Confederation Party. Authoritarian leadership now ruling.

        Hungary: Jobbik. Authoritarian leadership now ruling.

        United States: Donald Trump dominant faction of the Republican Party instigating overthrow of elections this year.

        There are many other smaller ones of little moment of course. But none of them are concentrating on Chile.

        • Blazer 5.2.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 8:51 am

          Very good Ad….clearly NATO and 5 EYES are figments of my….imagination.surprise

        • Dennis Frank 5.2.1.2
          9 December 2021 at 11:47 am

          no hive mind called The West

          Interesting theory. True that diversity is the norm, but don't discount the extent of subscription into the western myth of progress. It was teetering on Luxon's tongue, he barely managed to restrain spitting it out.

          Is globalisation progress? Few would argue that it's regress! Humanity seems to have something of a convergence trajectory, derived from the relation of social darwinism to regional context. That has now entered the globalising phase. Thus all those who hate control freaks are gearing up with competing conspiracy theories, all produced by in-crowd hive minds with the potential to ramp up into regional/national contexts…

          • Gezza 5.2.1.2.1
            9 December 2021 at 2:41 pm

            .
            😳

            Wot?

            • Dennis Frank 5.2.1.2.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 2:55 pm

              If you're fishing for a summary, it'd be that hive mind in the west has the western myth of progress as a basis. Obviously one can identify various other strands in the basis (such as the Golden Rule).

              Compared to China we lack a hive mind, as Ad implied, but my point is that it operates in tacit psychology & doesn't get enforced by rules nowadays.

              Probably the obvious exception would be private property rights, which retain hegemony in western countries due to law enforcement.

              Oh, my digression into the conspiracist dimension is due to mass psychology morphing into a nexus in which in-crowd group belief systems combined with identity politics drive behaviour (evident since the '90s).

              Sorry, summary became longish… frown

              • Gezza …
                9 December 2021 at 5:40 pm

                It’s not so much that I was looking for a summary, Dennis. It’s just that after I had carefully read it all the way thru, as per my praxis, when I got to the end … it felt like I hadn’t. 😐

        • Subliminal 5.2.1.3
          9 December 2021 at 1:28 pm

          Azov Batallion in Ukraine. Possibly of more import than most at present. Especially since they have a significant slice of govt support. Dont forget the photos of John McCain with actual seig heilering nut jobs

    • Tiger Mountain 5.3
      9 December 2021 at 8:25 am

      Don’t get ahead of yourself…NZ ACT is in the tradition of the Chicago Boys that fuelled Chilean neo liberal extremism under a dictatorship if you check out their policies. ACT is pro capitalist elite with an ongoing “war on the poor” as part of their programme including Electronic Income Management.
      https://www.act.org.nz/policies

      Jackson used the term fascist which includes corporatism, which the authors of the Auckland Supercity, including Mr Hyde clearly were aiming for. Undemocratic CCOs which the elected Councillors actually have very little sway over.

      Dictator Augusto Pinochet divided the country into 15 economic zones, his first Minister of Labour was José Piñera Echenique a Chilean economist. NZ National’s Employment Contracts Act was clearly based on Chilean union busting labour law.

      ACT has fascism in its DNA via links to ideologues involved in the CIA assisted Pinochet dictatorship. Regional genocide of indigenous people, remote concentration camps, and general terror reigned thanks to the neo liberals of the Chicago School. Willie is right to call them out.

      • Ad 5.3.1
        9 December 2021 at 8:37 am

        All you exhibit is the same categorical incoherence as Jackson.

        • RedLogix 5.3.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 8:47 am

          Opinion - Canada's Political compass veering "far right ...

          • AB 5.3.1.1.1
            9 December 2021 at 9:36 am

            That's a bit silly for two reasons:

            • there is a large anti-authoritarian left (easily the majority of the left in my experience)
            • the political compass is a crude tool. It needs to be folded horizontally into a cylinder, so extreme libertarianism touches extreme authoritarianism. Because if you give people licence to do whatever they want, they'll dominate, control and command others. The compass was clearly designed by a right-winger because the whole notion of private power escapes them, they can see only state power
            • RedLogix 5.3.1.1.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 10:10 am

              I'd argue that you can put a moderate socialist, capitalist and conservative into a room and the three of them, if they have any competency at all, will negotiate an outcome they can all live with.

              What extremists all have in common, the communists, libertarians and fascists, is an obsession with power in one form or another, and are completely unable to work with each other.

          • roblogic 5.3.1.1.2
            9 December 2021 at 4:51 pm

            This is a better reflection of the mainstream narrative. We are stuck in the right quadrant. (And probably further right than this image depicts).

        • Tiger Mountain 5.3.1.2
          9 December 2021 at 9:30 am

          ACT want to Abolish Māori seats, which should really only happen when Māori voters say so. It is a form of voter suppression advocacy and classic tyranny of the majority tactic.

          Voter suppression experts however reside in the USA. Trumpists in the wake of an attempted coup! on Jan 6 are conducting a massive gerrymandering and voter rights roll back in multiple state legislatures. Americans are a whisker away from authoritarianism if they do not save voter rights under the Biden administration.

          I know my political terminology well enough thank you, too many seem in denial of what libertarianism/Freidman/Hayek is all about, let alone apply it to NZ ACT.

          • Subliminal 5.3.1.2.1
            9 December 2021 at 1:47 pm

            Interesting you mention the decline of democracy in the US TM. There seem to be parallels with the "freedom fighters" in NZ. No one can deny the necessity of protest in the face of tyranny but to call the vaccine passes apartheid and the fight against them freedom is really to make most go where the eff were you when these things were real. Similarly with the capitol rioters. No one can deny the necessity to take over the Capitol if an election really were stolen but this? Trump? An extremel interesting article on the death of US democracy due to the maximising of self interest here With comment on the farcical nature of the capitol riots here. Delusional mobs storming the Capitol are just a by product of the American way

        • Mark Craig 5.3.1.3
          9 December 2021 at 2:50 pm

          I call that out Ad.I know exactly what he is talking about.

          t

    • Robert Guyton 6.1
      9 December 2021 at 9:25 am

      Kinder than the "stack of newspapers" image, at least.

    • Tiger Mountain 6.2
      9 December 2021 at 9:46 am

      its a LOL from me…

      although it can seem rather pathetic targeting CML’s prominent shiny bonce… Mr Luxon’s cranium is a rather defining feature which will likely continue to be lampooned by all and sundry unfair as that may be.

      Perhaps on the Standard we should lead the way and never again mention his noggin–I am willing to do that–when others stop trying to demean the PM because of her being a youthful woman, or her NZ designer wardrobe, deal?

      • Dennis Frank 6.2.1
        9 December 2021 at 11:53 am

        Moral guidance on the left? Innovative. Political correctness doctrine suggests it only ever emanates accidentally from the current conformist fashion trend.

        I advocated Humpty, citing an empirical observation that it had already got traction on a rightist blog. Note that it meets your criterion of not actually mentioning his cranium. Instead, it works via tacit psychology. Very pc, in other words…

    • weka 7.1
      9 December 2021 at 9:56 am

      maybe political divisiveness wasn't such a good idea after all.

    • Sabine 7.2
      9 December 2021 at 9:57 am

      oh boy, have you read it then?

      • Robert Guyton 7.2.1
        9 December 2021 at 10:13 am

        Have I read it?

        Certainly.

        The great concern, imo, will be the fixation Qanon-inspired non-sheeples have with Jacinda Ardern and her perceived role in the Great Reset etc.

        The sort of humour-focussed attention Luxon et al. receive here is not of the same quality by a long stretch.

        As to political divisiveness, isn't that the system we nurture here in NZ? One "side" keeps the other in check?

        • Rosemary McDonald 7.2.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 10:19 am

          The sort of humour-focussed attention Luxon et al. receive here is not of the same quality by a long stretch.

          Hmmm… perhaps if one was observing said witty repartee from outside of the tent one might see it a little differently?

          Perspective is all.

          • Robert Guyton 7.2.1.1.1
            9 December 2021 at 10:22 am

            One might, but one would be wrong, imo.

            I say that, having read and heard first-hand, examples of the anti-Ardern rhetoric.

            It's of an entirely different nature to the jibes seen here.

            • Tiger Mountain 7.2.1.1.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 11:38 am

              It can be pretty vile alright, even “Mr Collins” got into it in 2020 with some “porn hub” logo’ed pictures of the PM which he was barely admonished for.

    • McFlock 7.3
      9 December 2021 at 2:04 pm

      Reasonable idea.

      Frankly it's the sort of coordination that should happen for people fixated on ordinary folks, too, not just public figures and politicians.

    • Treetop 7.4
      9 December 2021 at 2:25 pm

      It can horribly go wrong for a person with a genuine grievance when they keep being fobbed off due to being blocked by the system. Lies told about you, incorrect facts.

      Lake Alice is a good example.

      There also needs to be a severe penalty for those in the system getting it so wrong.

      Re Lake Alice police investigated in 1977 and from 2002 – 2010. Finally on 8 December 2021 charges against 3 people (including the sadistic Dr Leaks) and 2 of the 3 are unfit to stand trial.

      The media is sometimes the only avenue available.

  8. Puckish Rogue 8
    9 December 2021 at 10:26 am

    https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/11/19/sex-offender-negative-label/

    'The way sex offenders are labeled is changing in Colorado. The board that sets state standards voted today to change the term “sex offenders” to reflect so-called “person-first” language.'

    https://nypost.com/2021/11/17/prof-placed-on-leave-after-saying-sexual-attraction-to-kids-not-always-immoral/

    Pretty soon LGTBQA+ will be LGBTQAM+

    • Blazer 8.1
      9 December 2021 at 10:30 am

      Reminds me of former ACT leader Rodney Hides 'aquaintance'…from North American Man/boy Love Association.NAMBLA.

      • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1
        9 December 2021 at 10:35 am

        I think it'd be interesting to have snoop around the professors computer and see what 'research' they've (of course the pronouns are they/them) been conducting

    • Gezza 8.2
      9 December 2021 at 10:40 am

      Jeez. God luvva duck! Wokeism has now gone so far overboard it’s become a parody of itself.

      Why are these people being taken seriously? Seems to me they need to be mollified for only so long as it takes to get them to a shrink. After which they should probably be be kept in hospital until their heads are on straight again.

    • Pingao 8.3
      9 December 2021 at 11:45 am

      Please don't lump in pedos with LGBTQ folks.

      • Puckish Rogue 8.3.1
        9 December 2021 at 11:52 am

        Sorry about that I wasn't as clear as I could have been and its certainly not my intention to try link MAPs with the gay community.

        What I meant was that there'll be some MAP activist that will try to get MAPs (the M part) included as part of the acronym so as to try to get societal acceptance of pedos

    • Anker 8.4
      9 December 2021 at 12:00 pm

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/11/17/old-dominion-professor-allyn-walker/

      Its not kindness to have phrases like minor attracted persons. Its a slight of hand, and of course paedophiles will exploit any loop holes.

      • Puckish Rogue 8.4.1
        9 December 2021 at 12:03 pm

        I think our society is getting too permissive, this is just one example but there are other

    • Molly 8.5
      9 December 2021 at 12:01 pm

      Puck, your first link connecting to a sex offender that wants to be called a 'client' because he is no longer engaged in sex offending, doesn't need any further comment, but does show how far removed we are becoming from being able to state facts.

      The second link is a convoluted tale, that might shed some light on how we got to this stage.

      Prof Allyn Walker has written a book: A Long, Dark Shadow – Minor-Attracted People and Their Pursuit of Dignity and has been interviewed here on Protasia.org (a site I'm unfamiliar with, but has a strange vibe on their About Page.)

      The interview looks to be authentic and accurate though.

      There is the familiar conflation of conversion therapy of same-sex attraction, to the tool of therapy for "Minor Attracted People" – or MAP's as Prof Walker names them.

      There is a distinction between those who have acted on their attraction and those who have not, and a worthwhile premise that there should be support for those that recognise their attraction but also who recognise the harm. But I don't feel that getting support groups of similar people together will work in terms of reducing that compulsion. I could see how this would increase preoccupation with sexual attraction to children, and do more harm than good. Individual therapy would seem more precautionary and effective.

      On the other hand, we also know that such methods as conversion therapy are not at all effective. And yet, that tends to be what people think of when they believe that MAPs should be trying to get rid of their attractions, and that they should go to some kind of therapeutic intervention where they can be converted. But that’s not really an option.

      What is an option is getting those MAPs who want it into some kind of affirming therapy where their provider understands that their attractions don’t make them a threat, and who can help them navigate strategies for non-offending, if it turns out that they need those.

      I would think that effective therapy to reduce any compulsion that might cause harm to someone else, and limits your ability to function well in the world would be beneficial. Just therapy. Equating this to conversion therapy is a sleight of hand.

      If you had a sexual attraction to open fires, the sexual attraction is not healthy for you. Therapy would be aiming to give you healthy sexual compulsions, not navigate strategies around avoiding November 5th.

      I haven't read the book, but the 2017 thesis that led to it, seems to consider sexual attractions to minors as a sexual preference, and not a cause of concern. The book might delve into this more, but I had read somewhere where the book advocates for use of child pornography as a resilience strategy to avoid committing offences, ignoring the fact that the production of child pornography records an offence being committed.

      For the brave of heart, and those willing to see if there is any wheat amongst the chaff, their thesis is here if anyone wants to delve into it.

      • Puckish Rogue 8.5.1
        9 December 2021 at 12:13 pm

        Too me its just a very short, slippery slope from someone that has attraction to kids but doesn't act on it to looking at legal images of kids to looking at illegal images and then committing physical acts and by making it a preference just seems like they're trying to minimise the act itself

        Sometimes I just want to get rid of the internet, move to a small town and try ignore as much of the outside world as I can

        • Molly 8.5.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 12:19 pm

          I think that approaching the topic as a sexual preference is the problem here. There is a power-dynamic that is ignored, and the objectification as children as sexual stimulants is as harmful as any sexual objectification that dehumanises and depersonalises.

          Healthy sexual engagement is between consenting adults with each other's boundaries respected and adhered to.

          From my perspective, any sexual objectification is one that should be treated as a compulsion you would want to change. Most particularly when the object of that compulsion is children.

      • Anker 8.5.2
        9 December 2021 at 12:14 pm

        Thanks Molly. Really helpful analysis.

        I think the people that the Professor is talking about who are attracted to minors but don't act on it. If they are using child pornography to help them "not act on it" that kind of refutes Walkers case. That is acting on their sexual attraction to children and it is real childrent who are filmed etc to make that pornography.

        It is well known that people who use porn continue to need their fix and often look for more extreme or novel porn to be able to get aroused. I can't see how it would be different for these child porn users. Again I am thinking of the Dunedin research that found good self control a good predicter of outcome in the 1000 or so participants in Dunedin.

        But research on these people is very important and of course there is a vast group of potential subjects in the prison population.

        By the way least we forget it was Green party member Golriz who wanted to get rid of the paedophile register. Watch this space for the potential for the Greens to support new language around paedophiles

        • Molly 8.5.2.1
          9 December 2021 at 12:22 pm

          Any effective strategy that reduces harm is worth looking at.

          From a very quick look, this doesn't appear to be a strategy that would reduce harm, although some of the information may be of use for a strategy that does aim to remove the compulsion.

          • Anker 8.5.2.1.1
            9 December 2021 at 12:35 pm

            I have no objection to people researching this area (or most areas for that matter). Anything that can help reduce the incidence of child sexual abuse is extremely worthy. Strategies that work with addiction include avoiding places where you might access the drug e.g. alcoholic avoid pubs, and practicing good self control when faced the the situation. Practicing distraction and emotion regulation also would come into it.

            And I don't particularly like the group cancellation of Dr Walker. I am more interested to know who gave the ethical approval for him to work with paedolphiles using child porn? That is really a question for the university.

            But the name change makes me very, very wary of Walkers motives. If we soften the language we use for this crime, then we soften how people see the crime…and then people might start to think "oh yeah they are just minor attracted"……..

            • Molly 8.5.2.1.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 12:39 pm

              As mentioned above, I think there are serious problems with the approach Walker has taken.

              I agree with you on requirement for vigilance to recognise and push back against efforts to normalise such behaviour in order to lead to societal acceptance, including creating new terms.

        • Puckish Rogue 8.5.2.2
          9 December 2021 at 12:27 pm

          'By the way least we forget it was Green party member Golriz who wanted to get rid of the paedophile register. Watch this space for the potential for the Greens to support new language around paedophiles'

          What was this?

            • Puckish Rogue 8.5.2.2.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 12:38 pm

              Thats a helluva hill to choose to die on

              • Molly …
                9 December 2021 at 12:41 pm

                You'd think so, wouldn't you?

                The fact that there is no evidence to support the list, doesn't mean that it is not useful, just that there is no evidence. No evidence also can mean that none was sought or collected.

                I'm thinking it's more than likely members of the public have used the register when they have had concerns.

                • Puckish Rogue …
                  9 December 2021 at 12:51 pm

                  Sometimes its better to err on the side of caution, I'm surprised no one told the Greens this

            • Anker 8.5.2.2.1.2
              9 December 2021 at 12:41 pm

              “That’s a helluva hill to choose to die on”….indeed. It shows what happens when ideology gets in the way of critical thinking, imo
              Golriz claim that children are rarely abused by strangers was not that smart.

              I made the point when commenting on this on another blog, that children are more likely to be murdered by step parents. I think the same applies to being sexually abused. So the solo mum meets a new partner. The whanua are a bit uncomfortable with him. They may want to check out the sex offenders register. It is in that child's best interest that they do.

              • Molly …
                9 December 2021 at 12:47 pm

                (Most) children are abused by adults who for some reason or other are given opportunity by their safeguarding adults. People with previous convictions on the register may have less opportunity, as safeguarding practices for letting unknown adults into your child's life includes some form of vetting.

                The register is a tool for those vetting practices.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                9 December 2021 at 12:50 pm

                Yeah claiming that children are rarely abused by strangers maybe something that was true years ago (maybe because I don't really know or maybe because its easier for the police to track down a family member rather than a stranger)) but I do know that nowadays plenty of pedos use social media and the internet to groom and meet kids

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                9 December 2021 at 4:38 pm

                the solo mum meets a new partner…. and despite a high level of obvious creepiness he is allowed to move in.

                Luckily a neighbour down the other end of the street sees him walking past and wonders why on earth he was not still locked up after his last media publicized conviction was for sodomising a 3 year boy.

                The neighbour down the street knew this predator from a previous job when he was being 'supported' after a conviction for raping 9 year old girl who was, according to him, 'asking for it.'

                His MO was to befriend sad, lonely solo mums and do odd jobs and fix things. His level of obvious creepiness was very, very high…without going into graphic detail. Any one who failed to instantly see his very obvious predilections and transport their children immediately to a place of safety must have been in need of supports themselves.

                Neighbour down the street called the local cop shop and they dropped this guy's name into the register…or whatever it was called back then…and a appropriately liveried vehicle just happened to be passing the house later that day and saw this predator in the front garden.

                Coincidentally, the driver just happened to recognise this twice convicted child rapist and felt professionally obliged to stop and inquire as to his business at a property where children lived. Outrage from both predator and solo mum…calls of unfair harassment etc…and the cop could only inform and warn.

                Luckily, the neighbour down the street had a friend who had a friend who knew the solo mum who was able to reinforce the constable's warning in a less upsetting way.

                Hopefully we all saved another child from rape that day…but this 'save' hinged entirely on me recognising the predator and there having been a register of such offenders readily available to the police call taker. This was the very early nineties. My next encounter was about five years later when I saw him repeatedly hanging around the second hand shop at the local dump. There were kids. Of course. I did not hesitate for one single second to again intervene. Never saw him again. Read he died. Did a little dance.

                Register? Throw away the key.

            • joe90 8.5.2.2.1.3
              9 December 2021 at 1:33 pm

              Newshub article March this year:

              Because nothing could go wrong.

              /

              Hardline law-and-order advocates the Sensible Sentencing Trust have been labelled "negligent and cavalier" after wrongly posting an innocent man's photo next to the details of a convicted paedophile on its website.

              The trust's online offender database listed the man's picture with the description of a convicted paedophile with a similar name for almost two years, leading to social media abuse and fears that the man's tarnished reputation would damage his business.

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/innocent-mans-photo-wrongly-posted-next-to-paedophiles-details-by-sensible-sentencing-trust/S2TCMWUPJDKTCPR2YXLVD7UI7I/

  9. Patricia Bremner 9
    9 December 2021 at 11:01 am

    I see where Hope and the remnants of the Round Table, are refusing to work with the Government on the Fair Work Regulations. So who has stuck a spoke in that wheel?

  10. Puckish Rogue 10
    9 December 2021 at 11:37 am

    Jussie Smollett trial update, for those interested

  12. Dennis Frank 12
    9 December 2021 at 12:07 pm

    Naughty judge fights back:

    The Judicial Conduct Commissioner, Alan Ritchie, who conducted a confidential preliminary examination into a complaint about the judge’s conduct, recommended the panel’s appointment. Attorney-General David Parker appointed the panel in late August.

    The commissioner didn't say the judge was naughty. Weasel words are essential in the establishment. One must call a spade an excavation implement:

    “On my assessment, the conduct, if established, would fall well short of accepted judicial standards,” he said.

    The unnamed judge facing a rarely used judicial conduct panel is challenging whether the panel can conduct the inquiry. Not even the gender of the judge has been released and the panel has made interim non-publication orders for the judge’s identity and the background circumstances, the panel has said in a written statement.

    The three-person panel of Chief High Court Judge Susan Thomas, District Court judge Lawrence Hinton, and former diplomat Jacqueline Caine (Ngāi Tahu, Kāti Māmoe, Waitaha), said the judge had filed several applications.

    The judge challenged the panel’s jurisdiction to conduct the inquiry in the particular circumstances of the case, the panel said. That would be the first question it had to decide.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127227460/judge-challenges-power-of-panel-to-inquire-into-alleged-conduct

    So the offender reckons the govt + judiciary is incompetent to decide the issue. Can a member of the establishment defeat the establishment? Unlikely, I would have thought, but god likes a trier. And note the judiciary's usual contempt for the principle of transparent governance.

    • joe90 12.1
      9 December 2021 at 1:47 pm

      Misogynist POS uses his position on the bench to bully, harass and embarrass women. Fuck him.

  13. Molly 13
    9 December 2021 at 12:12 pm

    A possible documentary to bookmark, for those like me who wander the internet for screen time.

    Pray the Devil back to hell

    IMDB reviewer:

    One of the best documentaries in 2008. It is a testament to those who demand that peace come about.

    Instead of talking about it, the women of Liberia decided to step up and put themselves on the line for peace.

    It did not come easily, but they persisted until it did finally come.

    This is the story of how they did it and a testament to the power of women and peacemakers.

    I am just amazed at what these women were able to accomplish, and Director Gini Reticker made it a most enjoyable film.

    This is a must see.

    I'd never heard of it before, just watched this morning, and it was a good story.

  14. Anker 14
    9 December 2021 at 12:54 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/127230685/cop-shooter-sentenced-to-seven-years-and-eight-months-in-jail

    WTF. Why such a short sentence? He murdered a cop, I thought the sentences were higher for that.

    • Puckish Rogue 14.1
      9 December 2021 at 1:02 pm

      If National are smart they'll attack Labour through crime, Act should be reminding people of the strikes law Labour will repeal

      Forget Jacinda attack Labour where its weakest and where National/Act are strongest

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300374903/blake-lee-murder-siuaki-lisiate-gets-at-least-20-years-added-to-sentence

      • Koff 14.1.1
        9 December 2021 at 1:56 pm

        Maybe the so-called crime surge in Auckland doesn't exist, just a media beat up, according to an article in Newsroom. More to the point is why crime could be considered the only reason for voting for a right leaning alternative. How about climate change, housing, inequalties, etc.. Labour may be underperforming, but can't see why the right in NZ has any answers. NZ needs a more progressive alternative, not a step backward.

        • millsy 14.1.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 2:08 pm

          Complaints about crime serve only one purpose.

          To erode civil liberties and legal protection (ie due process) and to give police powers to simply gun down people like dogs in the street

          • Puckish Rogue 14.1.1.1.1
            9 December 2021 at 2:50 pm

            Why do you hate the poor Millsy?

            • millsy 14.1.1.1.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 3:01 pm

              Why do you hate due process Puck?

              I know you think Derek Chauvin should have got off, and that you condone police brutality.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                9 December 2021 at 3:04 pm

                'Why do you hate due process Puck?'

                – Link, evidence or apology please

                'I know you think Derek Chauvin should have got off, and that you condone police brutality.'

                – Link, evidence or apology please

                • millsy …
                  9 December 2021 at 3:09 pm

                  You are also on record as thinking abortion should be outlawed, which is a totally repugnant assertion.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    9 December 2021 at 3:13 pm

                    Link, evidence or apology Millsy

                    • alwyn …
                      9 December 2021 at 4:05 pm

                      I do admire your persistence Pucky. Apologies are certainly not something that one can hope for from the left-wing zealots on this site. The may be wrong but they never ever admit it.

                      By the way, do you mind the abbreviation to Pucky? Using Puckish Rogue whenever I refer to you seems so clumsy somehow.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      9 December 2021 at 4:07 pm

                      Well Mr and Mrs Rogue named their baby boy Puckish but I don't mind names based around it angel

        • Puckish Rogue 14.1.1.2
          9 December 2021 at 2:49 pm

          Oh for sure.

          National/Act could attack Labour on Housing, Child Poverty but because the media wants to sell advertising they've decided to highlight crime

        • Anker 14.1.1.3
          9 December 2021 at 2:52 pm

          Koff, I guess people have all sorts of reason for voting for who they do. Crime has always an issue that will determine some voters. I am not saying I agree with it,. But I certainly will read the article from Newsroom you posted.

        • Jester 14.1.1.4
          9 December 2021 at 8:20 pm

          "Maybe the so-called crime surge in Auckland doesn't exist"

          Try telling that to the people living in Glen Eden and New Lynn.

      • millsy 14.1.2
        9 December 2021 at 2:45 pm

        Do you think Derek Chauvin should have got off?

        I know for a fact that bleating on about "crime" opens the door for a repressive police state where due process is thrown out the window.

        I know people like you will love to live in a society where people are gunned down in the streets like dogs by cops.

      • Stuart Munro 14.1.3
        9 December 2021 at 4:16 pm

        If National are smart

        From a false premise like this, anything follows – better to use If National were smart…

    • Jimmy 14.2
      9 December 2021 at 1:49 pm

      That sentence is way too short. Henry will be out and about shooting some other poor bastard in 7 years or less.

  15. Anker 15
    9 December 2021 at 1:11 pm
    • Yes they would get traction attacking Labour on law and order.
    • realize labour has no control over sentencing, rightly so….
  16. Ad 16
    9 December 2021 at 1:21 pm

    They finally tracked down and vaccinated those final 8 people on the West Coast.

    Vaccine Tracker: How many Kiwis have been vaccinated? – NZ Herald

    Just 3 more DHB's to go now.

  17. SPC 17
    9 December 2021 at 3:36 pm

    An Archbishop in France is no more because of a relationship with a woman, despite his claim no sex took place (only that they did touch).

    The Pope accepted his resignation, and talks about lesser sins of the flesh and draws the dots towards loss of celibacy and the adultery commandment.

    This reminds me a little of the death of John Paul 1 – it took years for it to be revealed that a woman had access to his room and was the one who found him dead.

    Without sex, there is no loss of celibacy, and loss of celibacy is only adultery if the woman is married.

    The Americans witnessing SCOTUS drawing dots to enable states to overturn Roe Wade will later note that this path has no end – fertility treatment itself would be proscribed (because of the lack of use of all fertilised eggs) and any woman planning to leave a red state for a purpose unlawful in that state would be incarcerated to term and beyond.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/pope-francis-says-extramarital-sex-sins-arent-that-serious/KMBCHHBKBKOT3HOXPIK6YEU2X4/

    • Puckish Rogue 17.1
      9 December 2021 at 3:40 pm

      Maybe Roe v Wade should be overturned and something better put in place

      https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/us/ruth-bader-ginsburg-roe-v-wade.html

      • miravox 17.1.1
        9 December 2021 at 3:55 pm

        If there was something better ready to put in place. Pretty sure that the current supreme court does not have that intention.

      • SPC 17.1.2
        9 December 2021 at 4:33 pm

        Maybe you did not read the link?

        The way Justice Ginsburg saw it, Roe v. Wade was focused on the wrong argument — that restricting access to abortion violated a woman’s privacy. What she hoped for instead was a protection of the right to abortion on the basis that restricting it impeded gender equality, said Mary Hartnett, a law professor at Georgetown University who will be a co-writer on the only authorized biography of Justice Ginsburg.

        Justice Ginsburg “believed it would have been better to approach it under the equal protection clause” because that would have made Roe v. Wade less vulnerable to attacks in the years after it was decided, Professor Hartnett said.

        And the same red states seeking to further limit voting rights (this is a nation that requires people to vote on a working day), have their MW at the federal minimum of 7.25 an hour, block public funding to groups such as Family Planning are the ones that would do this better?

    • roblogic 17.2
      9 December 2021 at 4:11 pm

      It's the definition pf patriarchy. The priestly celibacy mandate is unbiblical and unethical, leading to all kinds of distorted views of women and human sexuality.

      Not that modern libertine celebrations and public parades of all sorts of kinky fringe stuff are much better.

  18. roblogic 18
    9 December 2021 at 3:41 pm

    I watched Luxon's media scrum this arvo. I am actually worried about the next election. The guy oozes charisma and confidence. And he is is as smooth as Key. Talking to a working class friend yesterday, he is impressed and wavering towards National because he is sick of Jacinda's "obnoxious lockdown rules" making life difficult.

    And I agree with Luxon's critiques of the current Covid response. It stopped making sense when we got to 90% vaccinated.

    But I am shit scared if the old guard gets back in power that there will be absolutely no hope for 30% of NZ stuck in permanent renting penury. And they will continue Labour's callous indifference to child poverty and unliveable benefits. It will be the revenge of the property investors and slave wage employers.

    • Dennis Frank 18.1
      9 December 2021 at 4:12 pm

      old guard

      Why not take his stance at face value? Intent to reinvent National is a good thing. If he was serious about retaining the old guard Judith would have clocked in at #4 & McLay would still be in the top ten. Give the guy a chance to show some cred!

      • roblogic 18.1.1
        9 December 2021 at 4:19 pm

        It would be good to close the Dirty Politics chapter for good. But blue-blooded privilege and hatred of the poor is in National's DNA.

        National will shift the Overton window to valorise business "leaders" and try to sell us a vision of NZ that does not exist for 80% of us. Their focus groups are based on the Koru lounge, not nurses and teachers who can't get by

        • Dennis Frank 18.1.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 4:27 pm

          Those are good points but he has the capacity to combine conservatism & liberalism with kindliness (which after all is an attitude from Jesus).

          I suspect he's sophisticated enough to know his task isn't just team-building – it's brand revitalising too. How he goes about that will be a stylistic thing. Too early to assume style over substance though. I'll reserve judgment.

          • roblogic 18.1.1.1.1
            9 December 2021 at 5:04 pm

            I am having flashbacks to the "brighter future" and all that bullshit.

            Same old National underneath.

            • Blazer 18.1.1.1.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 5:19 pm

              Exactly …just another replay….9 years of stagnation.

              The brighter future was not quite as ironic as ….'the cusp of something…special'…

              National=meaningless ..platitudes.

              • roblogic …
                9 December 2021 at 5:23 pm

                Yeah but what really dismays me is that Labour is just as bad, if not worse because they betray their left wing roots while mouthing the same platitudes. Sitting on their fat arses using Covid as a distraction from the child poverty tragedy, climate inaction, and skyrocketing house prices.

                We are led by children playing political popularity games and not caring about the lives they wreck.

                • Gezza …
                  9 December 2021 at 6:45 pm

                  From recent analyses posted here of the poll stats, Luxon has to wean lotsa female voters away from Ardern. I don’t see him being able to do that. He’s coming across to me as pretty plastic & doesn’t have the same ability to project himself as an “ordinary bloke” that Sir John did.

                  Many middle class women will imo have an instinctive preference to stick with Ardern becos she’s female, says warm & cuddly things, seems to relate well to children, & is basically “nice”. But she needs to get her Ministers cranking up to do something to fix child povidy, low wages, unaffordable rents & house purchases, violent crime & gang recruitment, horrid tenants in state houses & emergency accommodation making everybody’snlives miserable, policing (we don’t have enuf police out in the community), health service deficiencies & the mental health service gross inadequacy.

                  If Labour doesn’t address these soon & produce meaningful stats showing improved outcomes, Luxon has the opportunity to exploit some at least of these quite serious Labour weaknesses. Just chucking money at them & crowing about it is giving ammo to the opposition if they can’t show the money’s been efficiently & effectivelt used to produce ACTUAL improvements in outcomes.

                  • roblogic …
                    9 December 2021 at 6:58 pm

                    Agree Gezza… Labour is actually making glacial improvements but not the desperately needed basic reforms as recommended by the Tax Working Group and WEAG

        • swordfish 18.1.1.2
          9 December 2021 at 10:29 pm

          .

          roblogic

          But blue-blooded privilege and hatred of the poor is in National’s DNA.

          By the same token … Financial & Power Privilege (camouflaged by ostentatious moral posturing) … together with hatred + systematic scapegoating of the non-Māori Poor (for Colonisation) … lies deep in the heart of Wokedom's DNA.

          Nacissistic, Self-Entitled Users & Abusers playing the role of the unusually morally good.

    • bwaghorn 18.2
      9 December 2021 at 4:16 pm

      If they do get in I hope that it's at acts expense, imagine a government with act on 16% or more!!!

    • SPC 18.3
      9 December 2021 at 4:42 pm

      One area of Auckland is at 89% double vaxxed.

      And waiting till Auckland lowers its daily infection rate down before ending borders is the wise move.

      The level of nationwide spread, with it 50 a day in Auckland rather than 200 day, is going to be way less.

      • roblogic 18.3.1
        9 December 2021 at 5:05 pm

        Sensible it may be, but politically and socially tenable is it not. The traffic light system and endless onerous mandates are a big vote loser for Labour.

        • SPC 18.3.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 5:12 pm

          I'd want more common sense than otherwise from government. When that is not possible in a democratic system, then we have real problems.

          • roblogic 18.3.1.1.1
            9 December 2021 at 5:19 pm

            Common sense to some, traumatising injustice to others who have been locked up for 4 months and just want to be with family

            • SPC 18.3.1.1.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 5:39 pm

              The same sense of injustice is also felt by Mike Hosking that he is not able to have the lifestyle that he is so entitled to.

              • roblogic …
                9 December 2021 at 5:48 pm

                Useless arbitrary rules

                If only Labour showed the same commitment to authoritarian power moves by fixing some longer term issues with their huge majority. Instead of pissing on everyone with QE for the bankers and speculators.

                • SPC …
                  9 December 2021 at 5:56 pm

                  Restricting the rate of spread of illness, while the public health system is underfunded is neither useless, nor arbitrary. Sure, it is your friend who is thinking of voting National?

                  One of the great paradoxes is that debate entrenches positions and they can finally become so entrenched a person changes their party allegiance over one issue. They are called wedge issues (often ones of identity).

                  PS QE decisions are made by the RBG, and his were informed by inaccurate advice from Treasury.

                  • roblogic …
                    9 December 2021 at 7:43 pm

                    It is indeed paradoxical that parts of Australia have lower infection rates than Auckland but we still force double vaccinated and tested travellers to spend 10 days in isolation

                    • SPC …
                      9 December 2021 at 7:54 pm

                      Are you really unaware of the different policies of WA/SA and Queensland and the spread states Victoria and NSW?

                    • roblogic …
                      9 December 2021 at 8:08 pm

                      Do you even give the slightest thought for the victims of lockdown?

                      These were supposed to be short sharp temporary measures not endless house arrest.

                      What a miserable year this has been. Hooray we dodged a bullet. Now please let my people go.

  19. ianmac 19
    9 December 2021 at 4:00 pm

    Poto Williams did well today against an onslaught of shouting from the Opposition. (Yesterday she was timid and frequently hassled into uncertainty.)

    https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=222857

  20. Robert Guyton 20
    9 December 2021 at 4:17 pm

    Nicola Willis' voice!

    Aural assault!

  21. Robert Guyton 21
    9 December 2021 at 4:48 pm

    https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=4628393207207551&set=a.325355217511393

    Christopher! Nicola!

    Take a good look at yourselves!

  22. Molly 22
    9 December 2021 at 5:41 pm

    Despite the majority of submissions to the select committee (70%) being against the Bill in its current form, our government has passed it without addressing or even acknowledging concerns. Like we knew they would.

    Parliament unanimously passes bill allowing change to birth certificates – RNZ

    Democracy in action. This is how you do it.

    https://youtu.be/Hrp1UeTcDTY

    • roblogic 22.1
      9 December 2021 at 5:51 pm

      Cowards on both sides of the House. They really are desperate for some sort of Progressive looking action to cover up their neoliberal failures

    • Rosemary McDonald 22.2
      9 December 2021 at 5:54 pm

      Have they allowed for a person to change their sex and then change it again? And again? Because, like, it'd be discrimination and not inclusive if a person was expected to commit to being one sex or the other permanently, like.

      Bugger me, we knew it was going to go through but it is still a big disappointment.

      When it cools, I am going out into the garden to dig a grave and bury science.

      • Molly 22.2.1
        9 December 2021 at 5:58 pm

        Thanks for the smile, Rosemary. Gardening is my solace too, might join you. laugh

        AFAIK, they were aware of the possibility for multiple changes, but they intended to keep an eye out for it to see if it was a problem. (Like you can’t anticipate that being a problem with self-id that requires no transition of any kind).

      • roblogic 22.2.2
        9 December 2021 at 6:01 pm

        Birth certificates are oppressive! Doctors are liars! I should be able to change my date of birth and place of birth as well as sex "assigned" at birth.

      • Sabine 22.2.3
        9 December 2021 at 6:02 pm

        nah, burn it on the stake like it should.:)

      • alwyn 22.2.4
        9 December 2021 at 8:21 pm

        "dig a grave and bury science".

        Too late Rosemary. The Royal Society of New Zealand have done it for you.

    • Puckish Rogue 22.3
      9 December 2021 at 6:00 pm

      I do see a light at the tunnel, sure the light is extremely dim and the tunnel is extremely long but I do think the fightback is beginning

      • Sabine 22.3.1
        9 December 2021 at 7:03 pm

        Not enough non male prisoners have been raped and inseminated for that at the moment. like really, just a few pregnancies, who cares. It is important though that Lady Dicks get to shower, piss and live in an environment of their choosing, lest they feel like they are actually in prison.

        So lets keep in mind that Lady Dicks are good dicks. Lady Dicks will harm no one, ever, and any Lady Dick that does harm a non male is surely a mistaken Lady Dick and most likely the non male is some sort of bigot/terf/unproductive uterus bearing 'human' or similar and taunted the Lady Dick into being a proper Lady Dick.

        Good times. Good good times.

        • Puckish Rogue 22.3.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 7:07 pm

          I don't know about Lady Dicks (or do I…) but this seems slightly appropriate:

      • Anker 22.3.2
        9 December 2021 at 7:54 pm

        Kara Dansky is amazing. A must watch. Thanks Kara.

      • RedLogix 22.3.3
        9 December 2021 at 10:13 pm

        Carlson is no fool – he gets quite a lot of left leaning people on his show, and this was no exception.

        Personally I suspect that if he was to stand for President he'd stand a good chance.

    • SPC 22.4
      9 December 2021 at 6:33 pm

      This bill recognises that those who need to amend their birth certificate can do so, that the courts do not have the right to make that choice for them, that parents do not have that right, that cis-gender people who don't even know them or care about them do not have that right.

      The seems to derive out of the born that way argument to legitimise same sex activity – equal human right of citizenship, regardless of difference (race, sex, sexuality, religion …). But which evolved into personal choice over sexuality (and now sex as identifying) validated as a birthright to citizens.

      Conservatives once argued that marriage bed was a basis of family nurture of the next generation and thus should be for male and female partners only – and thus, at most, other couples should only have civil unions.

      Now objective realists, and women concerned about safe spaces for those born female sex hold the conservative ground on who can identity as female sex/women and how/when (here the alternative is not civil unions, but identity certificates).

      The consequences of the path chosen will be assumptions about people based on how they appear (were they really born …), fair competition in sport and another reason for concern about the safety of women.

      PS – the idea that parents do not have the right to smack, or to decide … is yet to be determined.

  23. Sacha 23
    9 December 2021 at 5:44 pm

    Not many laws get unanimous support in parliament.

    Perhaps this place can get back to discussing labour movement politics.

    • weka 23.1
      9 December 2021 at 5:47 pm

      What did you have in mind?

    • Molly 23.2
      9 December 2021 at 5:48 pm

      This is political. Self-id legislation has an impact on other groups, most particularly women's sex based rights.

      The persistent refusal to have a public discussion on this, has resulted in this outcome that still has not addressed the concerns raised with any solutions.

      You may rejoice, but don't think the topic will be dropped.

      • Sacha 23.2.1
        9 December 2021 at 5:53 pm

        Maybe you can set up another website focused on that topic.

      • solkta 23.2.2
        9 December 2021 at 7:17 pm

        You weren't able to convince a single MP to vote against it, isn't it time to give it a rest?

        • Anker 23.2.2.1
          9 December 2021 at 7:50 pm

          Solkta at 23.2.2. "time to give it a rest?". ?put up and shut up?

          No things are just getting started.

        • Molly 23.2.2.2
          9 December 2021 at 7:58 pm

          The MPs demonstrated very early on they 'were not for turning'. Behaviour during select committee, and disregards for the concerns raised in 73% of the submissions solidified that.

          They could have drafted legislation that provided official documentation to transgender people while addressing concerns about the impact self-id might have on a number of places. They chose not to.

          Open discussion has still not taken place. It is likely we will see the consequences similar to other countries that have passed similar laws under similar approaches.

    • roblogic 23.3
      9 December 2021 at 5:57 pm

      Yeah, nah. This is just one piece of the ID-politics ideological project to self-destruct the left (also known as, handing over moderate voters to David Seymour).

      The next thing will be "hate speech" legislation so that the woke can make false accusations more easily.

      Then there's the "conversion therapy" bill so that the woke can politicise medical treatment with "affirmation only" mandates rather than exploratory therapy.

      Transparent authoritarian bullshit that will backfire in more ways than one.

      • McFlock 23.3.1
        9 December 2021 at 6:37 pm

        Seymour voted for it.

        • roblogic 23.3.1.1
          9 December 2021 at 6:39 pm

          He would, the slimy weasel

          • McFlock 23.3.1.1.1
            9 December 2021 at 6:45 pm

            oh, and all his minions voted for it, too.

            Not sure where all the "moderate" voters will go. Tamaki's party, maybe?

            • roblogic 23.3.1.1.1.1
              9 December 2021 at 6:54 pm

              Reality tends to assert itself sooner or later. Shame about women's rights, but oh well

              • McFlock …
                9 December 2021 at 6:59 pm

                Well, that's always the point of difference in this argument (it no longer really deserves the title "debate").

                • weka …
                  9 December 2021 at 10:52 pm

                  Well, that's always the point of difference in this argument (it no longer really deserves the title "debate").

                  I'm not sure it has been a debate at all on TS. My memory of first talking with you about gender critical views was that you assumed my views were founded in transphobia rather than being left wing feminist perspectives. Similar to how some left wing men have viewed feminist objections to pornography as being about prudery rather than based in an analysis of power within the patriarchal system.

                  In my naivety it took me a while to realise that you actually believed that somehow despite all my other progressive views, on this one I was suddenly regressive and conservative. I'm not sure there is anywhere to go when one is talking with someone who has such a fundamental and willful misinterpretation of the other's position.

              • solkta …
                9 December 2021 at 7:24 pm

                There are 58 women in Parliament or 48%. I'm sure at least some of them support women's rights.

                https://teara.govt.nz/en/graph/28634/women-in-parliament

                • Sabine …
                  9 December 2021 at 7:29 pm

                  Define Women, and then define rights.

                • weka …
                  9 December 2021 at 7:38 pm

                  women aren't a hive mind and have a wide range of views.We know from international experience that many women are afraid of speaking out gender identity ideology, I can't see any reason why NZ would be different.

                  If there's so much widespread support, why was there so much objection to having a wide debate that let women across NZ know what the issues were and have a say?

                  • solkta …
                    9 December 2021 at 7:44 pm

                    58 women from 5 political parties. And you think the problem was that there were none brave enough to stand up?

                    • weka …
                      9 December 2021 at 7:57 pm

                      it's definitely one of the problems. The Green Party blocked debate within the party. Stop and think about that and what it means.

                      The only reason the Bill got delayed was because Tracey Martin had the political power to put it on hold for while. This was after the introduction of self-ID to the Bill without due process. They tried to sneak it in the back door.

                      Again, if it's such a popular change to society, why is there such resistance to it being discussed widely?

                      In the UK women have lost their jobs and careers over this, for speaking out. There are whole websites devoted to publishing women's views anonymously because they're afraid to say anything.

                      I don't know where you've been in the past five years, but none of that is secret. Irrespective of who is right and wrong on the issues, there is no doubt that No Debate has been a thing, and that it's anti-democratic.

                      We want universities, policymakers and the wider public to understand the effect the current 'no debate' culture is having on those of us who work and study in Higher Education. We recognise the isolation that people face and want this to be a space where we can collate stories about our experiences and concerns, and for others to realise that we do not stand alone. Help us break the silence.

                      https://www.gcacademianetwork.org/

                    • weka …
                      9 December 2021 at 8:00 pm

                      No Debate is also lefties telling women to shut up on a political blog or just go away somewhere else.

                      .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-12-2021/#comment-1841455

                      .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-12-2021/#comment-1841373

                  • RedLogix …
                    10 December 2021 at 12:38 am

                    On reading about the unanimous passage of this Bill today I've been feeling peculiarly flat. The oppressive Brisbane humidity probably hasn't helped, but frankly the fact of our Parliament having no-one with the guts to even speak against it leaves me more depressed more than I would have expected.

                    As Orwell famously wrote, “The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” This is why people voted for Trump – middle finger to the fucking lot of them.

        • Sabine 23.3.1.2
          9 December 2021 at 6:56 pm

          Well just goes to show that between L, G, N, A and there is very little difference. 🙂

          Maybe it is going to be the tamaki/conservative/others votes. Who knows, 2023 is a long way to go. Keep the popcorn ready, cause we shall be entertained.

  24. Anker 24
    9 December 2021 at 5:59 pm
    • Very happy to keep commenting on this issue on The Standard.

    undemocratic anti women and girls. Labour and the Greens have been captured by an ideology that makes no sense

    • roblogic 24.1
      9 December 2021 at 7:13 pm

      Makes as much sense as the Wizard of Oz

      "Close your eyes and tap your heels together three times. And think to yourself, I am a woman there's no place like home.".

      "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking."

    • Ad 24.2
      9 December 2021 at 7:19 pm

      The whole of Parliament unanimously voted for it. Close-to unheard-of.

      Not a single person from hard left to hard right had a murmur of dissent.

      Greens in particular put out their own supporting media release.

      • Sabine 24.2.1
        9 December 2021 at 7:27 pm

        And in the end, they will be responsible for everything now that happens in regards to this law, the good, the bad and the very ugly all at their footstep. Time will tell who was on the right side of history.

  25. Sacha 25
    9 December 2021 at 6:01 pm

    What a waste.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.