Boot camps

Written By: - Date published: 10:16 am, February 19th, 2013 - 27 comments
Categories: law and "order" - Tags:

We knew from overseas that military-style boot camps are expensive, don’t reduce recidivism, and breed sadistic violence towards inmates.

It’s not just overseas experience; these were all reasons we got rid of borstals.

Hell, a basic understanding of human psychology tells you putting young ‘bad’ people in a highly regimented environment where discipline and good behaviour is to be forced upon them, especially if the enforcers are from an organisation that takes discipline very seriously and is about using violence against ‘bad guys’, then you’re going to get bad outcomes. (even ordinary people become fascists in that kind of power position)

National knew this when they introduced boot camps but they did it anyway for the populism. Now, boot camps have failed again, can we stop this stupidity?

27 comments on “Boot camps ”

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  2. One Tāne Huna 2
    19 February 2013 at 11:17 am

    Three words: evidence based policy.

    Can any National Party supporter explain why evidence based policy is a bad idea, and why it would be a problem for those of the right-wing persuasion?

  3. millsy 3
    19 February 2013 at 11:23 am

    The stuff article claims that Labour set up the LSV scheme, but it was actually set up by National, first in 1983 as a 6 month part time course, then in 1993, as a 6 week fulltime course.

    I did it back in 2005. It was fun enough, though I dont think that dressing young people up in military uniforms and marching them around a parade ground is a suitable solution for unemployment.

    • dpalenski 3.1
      20 February 2013 at 7:26 pm

      Did it back in 2009 real fun and a free trip to Christchurch which up until I had never been there but other than that it nothing really all that beneficial in fact IMO it aggravated my developing depression by giving me false hope.

  4. chris73 4
    19 February 2013 at 12:01 pm

    Or it could be little shits that have never had any discipline whatsoever whining and moaning about minor stuff that you and I wouldn’t even think twice about

    (I dealt with LSVs and YLSs for a number of courses)

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1
      19 February 2013 at 2:52 pm

      There’s a difference between self-discipline and externally forced discipline. Thing is, from what I can make out, externally forced discipline (which is what you get at Boot Camps) doesn’t teach self-discipline and it is the latter that is needed. All externally forced discipline teaches is fear of authority – Of course, that does seem to be what National wants.

      • TheContrarian 4.1.1
        19 February 2013 at 3:02 pm

        “All externally forced discipline teaches is fear of authority”
        Well that seems at odds to the statement that they don’t reduce recidivism.

        Also the military is external and forced discipline
        (I don’t think Boot Camps and the army are the same thing however)

        • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1
          19 February 2013 at 4:52 pm

          Well that seems at odds to the statement that they don’t reduce recidivism.

          In what way? They’re still undisciplined, haven’t changed their social patterns and thus are still criminals.

          I think you’ll find that that fear of authority is more likely to manifest as resentment and carrying of guns rather than a decrease in crime.

          • Rogue Trooper 4.1.1.1.1
            19 February 2013 at 4:57 pm

            everything i have learned gets applied against “the perceived enemy”. (take it from one who knows the “criminal class” up close and personal)

          • TheContrarian 4.1.1.1.2
            19 February 2013 at 4:58 pm

            I would have the recidivism came from the contempt of authority that forced discipline has engendered in the youths in this case.

          • Rogue Trooper 4.1.1.1.3
            19 February 2013 at 5:09 pm

            not “fear” Draco. Disgust and Despise (gotta freakin $100 ticket for ambling along the curb on my cycle through a red light the other day, or, was i hallucinating; Cop’s agenda? “well, I am a cyclist and you are giving us a bad rep.” Reply: “have you read any reports or surveys into the NZ publics’ confidence in the NZPF lately?”) Ticket arrived in post today (they may not be effective, but they are “efficient”) Nevermind, a letter is called for…

      • TheContrarian 4.1.2
        19 February 2013 at 3:05 pm

        *Having trouble editing but I retract what I said about the army – it is a not ‘forced’ in that it is voluntary.

    • millsy 4.2
      19 February 2013 at 10:41 pm

      Spoken like a true redneck. I bet you got a thrill when you would make the LSV trainees double round the parade ground in 32 degree heat because one trainee didnt shine his boots properley.

      • chris73 4.2.1
        20 February 2013 at 7:29 am

        When I made trainees run around the parade ground or do press ups it was because:

        a. They were being dicks in class
        b. I then didn’t have involve their directing staff (which would have meant even more of a stuff around for them)

        and I always did whatever I was making them do

  5. aerobubble 5
    19 February 2013 at 12:02 pm

    A nasty rump of stupid people….

    There’s this story about a mountain climber who discovers a new route up Mt.Cook, very hard but will get easier as more try it for themselves. So he goes and patents it. He can’t patent the mountain, he can’t patent the climbing processes, he could patent any new equipment he may have invented, but hasn’t invented any. Now he says he has a patent on the route up the mountain, use any slightly different hand holes, be twice their size and avoid all the hard parts, find a new way up, and you have to pay for the privilege. Now swap out rock climbing route and put in genes, and demand a patent on climbing the comparable Mt.Cook, demanding fees on everyone, on any possible route.

    We live in a era of very greed people who are finally feeling the real effects of a free market, and are having a damn last ditch effort to buy, patent, hoard any resource, and they are loaded up on printed money and lawyers are desperate for work. Welcome to the era of stupid, didnt the Maya go the same way, investing in their preists who also engaged in cannibalizing and ignoring the real problem.

  6. xtasy 6
    19 February 2013 at 1:08 pm

    Whenever I see Paula Bennett on television, or in print or online media, I instantly get images coming up in my mind of a leather clad mistress in high heeled leather boots, with hand cuffs, chains and a whip in her hands and around the waist, ready to start lashing out at some weak bodied, supposedly “naughty” victims.

    Strange and sad that is, and I can assure, I am NOT a fan of SM and bondage games and the likes.

    Is it perhaps that it is due to certain personality aspects hidden in such persona, that may be behind the usual dress and appearance?

    It does at least take a bit of a bizarre, sadistic kind of mindset, to believe that such “camps” will bring the results that are supposed to come out of sending young offenders or “slackers” to them.

    Now, I am waiting to find out more. The treatment of some sole parents a few years back, exposing private details about the WINZ dependent mothers, that was also not a “nice” act.

    This government believes in such “camps”, as it does have “leaders” who just love “to deal” out to undesired “subjects”.

    • chris73 6.1
      19 February 2013 at 2:02 pm

      I didn’t realise we’re so similar except I tend to think about Judith Collins…

    • rosy 6.2
      19 February 2013 at 3:09 pm

      Sadistic – that’s the word.

      It would be nice to save the word ‘fascist’ for those who have sympathies with fascism , so that proper discussion about political ideals is more… proportionate, rather than using the term for any old bully who likes to beat people up because s/he has the power to do so.

  7. Blue 7
    19 February 2013 at 2:53 pm

    Strong women, who take no shit, obviously make your arse pucker and give you disturbing fantasies. Missing Helen?

    • xtasy 7.1
      19 February 2013 at 4:10 pm

      Blue –

      “Strong women”? Are you talking about Bennett? She is only “strong” when supported by a mob that loves to send her as “bully” around to do the nasty bits. On her own she is a REAL COWARD, as many experienced in early October last year, when she abandoned her electorate office very early, before welfare reform protesters outside raised their voices (posing no “threat” by the way, just asking questions and pointing out issues)!

      Now a “strong woman” politician would not have dodged a fair challenge, where also heaps of police officers were present. I may give it to Collins to be “strong” in some ways, but Bennett is a hollow wannabe strong woman.

  8. Ron 8
    19 February 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Yes, we miss Helen. Speaking of a fear of strong women the RWNJ spent her entire term(s) villifying her for her strength. Over and over again i ask Tory supporters why they vote for that dick Key and there response over and over os “at least he’s not that bitch Clark”. The Right HATED being led by a woman who wouldn’t put up with their shit.
    Interesting to note that the Tory woman PM was a bumbling high school failure, useless at almost everything else she undertakes, known for her business failures and led by the nose by her vicious caucus.

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