Daily review 20/01/2020

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, January 20th, 2020 - 93 comments
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Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

93 comments on “Daily review 20/01/2020 ”

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  1. Anne 1
    20 January 2020 at 5:56 pm

    Re- the burglary of the National Party regional headquarters:

    The blame game has started – just inferences at this stage. But it's sinister folks. It's politically motivated at the start of election year:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/video.cfm?c_id=280&gal_cid=280&gallery_id=216055

    Funny, they weren't fussed about the break-ins at the Labour Party and Alliance Party headquarters in the mid 1990s, nor the hacking of Labour's computers around 8-10 years ago.

    But I'm sure the police will pull out all stops this time. When it happens to National hell that's bad, but if its Labour well, ho hum so what…

    • alwyn 1.1
      20 January 2020 at 6:19 pm

      Can you provide references for you claims of break-ins and computer hacking?

      The only thing I am aware of was that the Labour Party had left their membership details unprotected, which seems a bit different to the actual theft of computers. That was Cameron Slater and Graeme Edgeler at least though that no crime was committed.

      "The question then is: does Cameron Slater have authority to access the server that hosts the Labour Party website? Well, it’s a publicly available website, that they put up there so that people can go to their website and download stuff from that server into their cache to read on their browsers. If Cameron doesn’t have authority (because, for example, it’s not express authority), I don’t see how any of us can lawfully look at it."

      https://thestandard.org.nz/was-a-crime-committed-when-slater-accessed-labours-computer-system/
      Was that what you had in mind?

      What were the Break-ins of the Offices you talk about?

      edit. I can’t seem to get the link correct. It was a story here on the Standard but my cut and paste seems to lose the first part of the link.

      • joe90 1.1.1
        20 January 2020 at 6:38 pm

        David Cunliffe’s electorate office.

      • Anne 1.1.2
        20 January 2020 at 6:46 pm

        So, you are inferring I'm lying are you alwyn?

        Both burglaries occurred in the lead up period to the 1996 election. Yes, I know who was behind them, but can't confirm the identities of the actual thieves who carried out the burglaries.

        The Labour Party hack is well documented. Yes, there was controversy over whether it constituted a hack or not but that was just a distraction. Information was stolen from the Labour Party and the police did f**k all. In fact further down the track they actually had the gall to target Nicky Hager as a 'suspected accessory to a crime' while ignoring the criminal activities with which National’s Cameron Slater was associated.

        Police bias when it comes to politically motivated criminal activity over the years has been a disgrace.

        And don't forget the illegal raid on Kim Dotcom? What's happened to him?

        • alwyn 1.1.2.1
          20 January 2020 at 7:24 pm

          "So, you are inferring I'm lying are you alwyn".

          No I am not. I have never heard of these break-ins of the Labour and Alliance Offices and I am curious what they were about. It may of course, if they were in the early part of the decade, simply be because I wasn't living here at the time.

          Asking for a reference for something stated by a contributor does not seem, to me, to be in anyway a statement that you are lying. I just want to see what the story is about. I always supply, when asked, links to statements I have made. This was I thought precisely why the second paragraph of the rules for the site seems to require that justification for comments should be available.

          Now are there any available links to these stories, please. I would love to see what it was that the Police refused to investigate.

          • Anne 1.1.2.1.1
            20 January 2020 at 7:47 pm

            Well. I apologise for jumping to conclusions. The two break-ins in 1996 were the Auckland Central Alliance Party regional headquarters and the Auckland Central Labour Party electorate office. They were linked of course and the aim of the exercise was to gather information about their campaigns. It isn't likely links are available online because of the passage of time.

            And I know who ordered the break-ins.

            I didn't say they "refused" to investigate but they didn't try very hard – if they tried at all. They're very good at ‘not trying’ when they don’t want to.

            • alwyn 1.1.2.1.1.1
              20 January 2020 at 8:23 pm

              Thank you. As I suggested, I wasn't living in New Zealand in 1996 so it is not surprising I hadn't heard of them. I was, from early 1995 until early 1997 touring the West Island. All of it, and boy that is a lot of territory.

              I shall have to track the story down offline. As you say, once you get into last century there is very little available to Googles gaze.

        • james 1.1.2.2
          20 January 2020 at 8:45 pm

          "Yes, I know who was behind them, but can't confirm the identities of the actual thieves who carried out the burglaries."

          So if you cant confirm the identities – then you 'think' you know who it is.

          Else go to the police. But I would guess you have zero idea at all.

          • Anne 1.1.2.2.1
            20 January 2020 at 9:09 pm

            Stop your stalking of me and your childish venom. If I say I know who ordered the break-ins then I know who ordered the break-ins.

            And yes, I had a good idea who actually did the job but couldn't be 100% sure so no, I did not go to the police. I don’t have a high opinion of the police when it comes to political criminal activity – and for very good reason that neither you nor anyone else here is privy to.

            Oh, and btw you'll be delighted to hear it wasn't anyone in the National Party.

        • Wayne 1.1.2.3
          21 January 2020 at 7:45 am

          Anne,

          Without commenting on the merits of the issue, 1996 is nearly 25 years ago.

          And as Kim Dotcom, he is awaiting the decision of the Supreme Court. Incidentally the raid was not illegal.

          • Anne 1.1.2.3.1
            21 January 2020 at 10:48 am

            …1996 is nearly 25 years ago.

            What has that got to do with the price of fish? A break-in is a break-in no matter when it happens.

            Not only is it useful to compare the difference in responses, but those break-ins were politically motivated and that was a dangerous precedent and should have been taken more seriously by the police at that time.

            ... the raid was not illegal.

            Well something was considered unlawful. I thought it was the raid itself.

            • Wayne 1.1.2.3.1.1
              21 January 2020 at 11:44 am

              You are right, an aspect of the raid was illegal, I think it was the preceding surveillance.

              As for the relevance of 25 years, it is because these events are hardly quite the huge things the partisans make them out to be. So something of relatively modest consequence 25 years ago is close to being ancient history. For instance while I might have a very clear memory of what it was like on selection night in North Shore in 1995, for everyone else it is old history.

              • Anne …
                21 January 2020 at 12:56 pm

                Be that as it may Wayne but while it is "ancient history" in the eyes of most people, the difference in police responses is still pertinent.

                When individuals stole material/equipment for political purposes from Labour and the Alliance Party by way of unlawful entry to their premises it was no mere "modest consequence". It was dirty politics carried out with hostile intent, and caused the victims just as much consternation and anxiety as it would today.

                But it was not regarded as important 23 years ago and I venture to suggest that was in part because it was… only Labour and the Alliance Party personnel who were affected.

                Anyway, it is a flawed conversation now, because it looks like National’s break-in was part of opportunist burglaries in the area targeting mainly laptops.

      • weka 1.1.3
        20 January 2020 at 8:30 pm

        "The only thing I am aware of was that the Labour Party had left their membership details unprotected, which seems a bit different to the actual theft of computers."

        Not this again. Lay people routinely use the word hack to refer to things that tech people don't. It is normal in English for this to happen (tech vs lay language usage).

        As for comparisons, most people who give their personal details to a political party don't expect those details to be accessed by political opponents for political gain. In other words, it was wrong. Let's not forget that Slater went on to orchestrate an attempt at hacking TS, amongst his many other dubious activities.

      • weka 1.1.4
        20 January 2020 at 8:33 pm

        When you put an internal link in a comment via a straight cut and paste, the system changes that to the name of the post (without all the URL detail). Your link still works.

        • alwyn 1.1.4.1
          20 January 2020 at 8:53 pm

          Ok. Thanks. It just looks funny and I thought I must have screwed it up somehow. I assume this is only if the URL is the same as the place where you are posting it, which is of course what I was doing here?

          I must revert to my old habit of clicking on any link I put up as soon as I post it. I always used to do it but I have gotten lazy. As you say it actually works just fine.

          • weka 1.1.4.1.1
            20 January 2020 at 9:15 pm

            TS has some newish linking changes (happened while I was away). The other main one is that if you cut and paste a link to a TS comment, the link will revert back to the post (rather than the comment). The way around that is to use the html tags to insert a link.

            • weka 1.1.4.1.1.1
              20 January 2020 at 9:15 pm

              That doesn't apply if you put the link in line with some text, but if you put it in its own line it won't work.

      • Psycho Milt 1.1.5
        20 January 2020 at 8:48 pm

        The only thing I am aware of was that the Labour Party had left their membership details unprotected, which seems a bit different to the actual theft of computers.

        The ignorant tend to call data theft "hacking" and imagine highly skilled coders wearing hoodies in dark rooms coming up with fancy ways to bypass security protocols. In reality, most of it is exactly like the example above: someone screws up and data that should have been protected is left exposed to the unscrupulous and unethical, who put time and effort into finding such exposed data. Whether you call data theft under those circumstances "hacking" or not depends on your enthusiasm for drama, but it's still data theft. If it's not illegal under our legislation, that's a problem with our legislation, not an endorsement of the theft.

      • Anne 1.2.1
        20 January 2020 at 6:51 pm

        Did that yesterday.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1.2.2
        20 January 2020 at 7:03 pm

        Me too!

        Interesting that Goldsmith said the 'party' part of the office was where the laptops were, not the 'electorate' part of the office.

        That suggests that the Chinese spy was the target.

    • james 1.3
      20 January 2020 at 8:43 pm

      You wern't that fussed when WhaleOil was hacked either.

      • Muttonbird 1.3.1
        20 January 2020 at 9:48 pm

        * weren't (not often used in formal writing).

        But Slater is poisonous and a complete failure. His was a career in corrupt and criminal activity and that has been proven time and time again, so why on earth would anyone be fussed that he was hacked.

        It's a good thing that Slater has been crushed because it rids NZ of a particularly odious form of cancer.

      • Sacha 1.3.2
        20 January 2020 at 10:00 pm

        Solid public interest defence for publishing information derived from that theft, but didn't the hacker admit at the time it was illegal?

        By contrast I've never seen Master Slater admit doing anything wrong – indeed he has wasted many a judge's time claiming absolute purity of thought and deed.

    • Muttonbird 1.4
      20 January 2020 at 11:10 pm

      Pretty sure that office is right next to a Police station.

      Checked and yes…

      Paul Goldsmith's office – 107 Gt South Road, Epsom.

      Police Eastern Area HQ – 111 Gt South Road, Greenlane.

      So yeah.

      • Anne 1.4.1
        20 January 2020 at 11:38 pm

        So it was the police wot done it.laugh

        OK. for the likes of James and co. I'm joking.

        Edit: the Nats like to park their offices next to police stations. Maggie’s North Shore office is next door to the Takapuna station.

      • Sacha 1.4.2
        21 January 2020 at 6:53 am

        Interesting how the suburb name changes..

        • Anne 1.4.2.1
          21 January 2020 at 10:03 am

          It's called keeping up with the Joneses. Epsom is more upmarket sounding than Greenlane.

          Maggie's office in Takapuna is on the second storey of the building so that she can look down on the cops next door.

      • Incognito 1.4.3
        21 January 2020 at 8:47 am

        Just don’t tell Simon that Police officers are having coffees with MPs or emotional junior staffers from the electorate offices. The poor guy’s already worried sick about top cops having cups of coffee with Ministers.

      • Alice Tectonite 1.4.4
        21 January 2020 at 10:23 am

        111 Great South Rd, Epsom is currently Presbyterian Support, not Police.

        Google Streetview suggests that has been the case since at least 2015. Last image showing Police was in 2012.

  2. Sacha 2
    20 January 2020 at 6:22 pm

    One for @lprent – Y2k redux on the way (click tweet for thread):

    https://twitter.com/jxxf/status/1219009308438024200

    • lprent 2.1
      20 January 2020 at 7:42 pm

      I think most systems switched off 32bit and to 64 bit unix epoch times quite a long time again. I know I did. And that is even on the little Arm 32bit processors.

      Most things I work on tend to use struct timeval. 64bit seconds since the unix epoch, and 64 bit micro seconds.

  3. Sabine 3
    20 January 2020 at 6:27 pm

    so according to the orange menace no one was hurt during the little bombing raid on their Airbase in Iraq by Iran.

    well funny that, cause this is the second article now that speaks of wounded soldiers being evacuated due to injuries sustained during the attack.

    The first eleven were evacuated to Ramstein Airbase in Germany with 'concussions' and now this diddy about 16 being evacuated to Saudi Arabia with severe injuries.

    https://en.abna24.com/news//16-us-troops-flown-to-kuwait-hospitals-with-severe-injuries-after-irans-missile-strike-paper_1003700.html

    That slap in the face was a fist on the nose it seems.

    • Fireblade 3.1
      20 January 2020 at 6:44 pm

      Trump is a weak President who makes hollow threats. Iran's Supreme Leader must me pissing himself laughing at Trump's impotence.

      • Sabine 3.1.1
        20 January 2020 at 6:50 pm

        i consider the orange menace to be as competent as i considered ronald reagan to be competent, and both were/are currently adivised by the same people. its a bit the iran/contra affair redux. the iranians will be still there when america has nuked itself.

        in the meant time its the boots on the ground that die.

    • Bill 3.2
      20 January 2020 at 7:50 pm

      And there was me thinking that "fatal" was like, y'know – dead?

      "16 US military men with fatal injuries sustained during Iran's retaliatory missile strikes on Ain Al-Assad base earlier this month have been taken to a hospital…"

      I did give the article another few secs of reading, but gave the fuck up with the Kuwaiti paper supposedly relying on "quoted [anonymous] informed sources as saying"

      There were no injuries (let alone fatalities) because Iran gave prior notice of their retaliation precisely to avoid giving the US a 'go to' excuse for fucking war.

      • Sabine 3.2.1
        20 January 2020 at 7:58 pm

        there is not one person in this admin that wants to go on record, not even the press secretary. tells you lot does it not? as for the no fatalities. yeah, right, tui.

        These guys supposedly were in the hangar with the drones blahblahblah.

        They had casualties and they had injuries. I am not the betting kind, but i bet you a pint.

        • Bill 3.2.1.1
          20 January 2020 at 8:08 pm

          There is a fucked up mix of war mongering "permanent state" actors and Democratic "cold war" warriors sitting right behind the US admin's "rapture" fundamentalists right now. The Iranian government is too rational and smart to offer them up an easy pretext to rain down destruction.

          You really think the US wouldn't have been parading "dead babies" and getting on its moral high horse skeletal war horse given half a chance?

          • Sabine 3.2.1.1.1
            20 January 2020 at 8:33 pm

            i think the dumbarse realised that he is in over his head when it comes to Iran. Its one thing to hold people / country hostage in order to make a bit of coin or to get some dirt on someone, its a completely different thing to start a proper war in the middle east, block the straight of hormuz, have the gallon go to 5+ bring home thousands of body bags and maybe have some cleric issue a fatwah on the fat fuck in the shitty house and his family. So yeah, i think someone might have picked up a phone and explained Donnie just what the fuck he was gonna tweet next. 'https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1214739853025394693?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1214739853025394693&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fpolitics%2Fdonald-trump%2Ftrump-tweets-all-well-after-iranian-missile-attack-targeting-u-n1112211

            So yes, i think they will try to hide very much any dead bodies they may have found in the rubble, and will declare anything less then deadly injuries a 'concussions' and such.

            The Iranians raised a point. Its simply “for those of us you kill we are able to take a few of yours”. Your turn.

          • McFlock 3.2.1.1.2
            20 January 2020 at 8:58 pm

            I don't think thew White House would keep it quiet – that place leaks like a seive.

            Whether the military would tell the white house anything that could be a c. belli is up for grabs – especially if the story about dolt45 choosing the artificial "worst option" of openly killing a sitting Iranian general is true.

            The US military needs a break to retrain, recover, and refocus. Organisationally they're exhibiting classic overwork signs: navy ships are failing at basic things like navigating waterways without colliding with other ships, air crew are being killed because training hours are so low, soldiers are being deployed from combat theatre to combat theatre without a break in between.

            Policy is one thing, the military-industrial complex is another, but admirals and generals know that if they're the ones in charge when something hits the papers that can seriously affect their post-military careers. Oh, and some of them probably care about their organisations, as well.

            tl;dr: the US military wants to get ready for a near-peer confrontation, not another counter-insurgency in ME. This might affect whether they report precisely to the war-mongering white house injuries as being of US service personnel (vs contractors) occurring as a direct result of enemy action (no it was flying glass splinters and air pressure problems wot done it) and even (although I think this one is slightly farther-fetched) "no the attack was in Iraq and this soldier died in Saudi Arabia".

            edit: although the US military is not really a monolith, either, so who knows

            • Sabine 3.2.1.1.2.1
              20 January 2020 at 10:01 pm

              essentially the problem of poor recruiting and quality of recruit. Instate the draft and throw a bit of money to training and voila a little soldier is created to go kill kill kill.

              and yes, the pentagon is gonna lie about this, in a way. They admit to people hurt but its only a bit of 'headache' a concussion so its nothing. And frankly who would care about Jonny and Jane Sixpack from somewhere US. No one. They get injured and die every other day currently in Iraq and Afghanistan and no one gives a care. These guys are nothing but tiny little blibs. There, gone. Kanonenfutter .

              • McFlock …
                20 January 2020 at 11:08 pm

                It's not even a recruiting problem as such – like any machine, every so often chunks of it need down-time for preventive maintenance. But yeah, if you step on the accelerator you burn through more fuel, and people are the fuel of armed forces.

      • joe90 3.2.2
        20 January 2020 at 8:06 pm

        No injuries?

        Three service members were flown to a facility at Camp Arifjan in Kuwait and the others were sent to Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany after displaying signs of concussions, defense officials said Thursday. Jonathan Hoffman, the Pentagon’s chief spokesman, said Friday that al Asad is not outfitted with an MRI machine or other tools necessary for advanced brain injury examinations.

        https://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/eleven-us-troops-flown-to-hospitals-from-al-asad-air-base-in-days-after-iran-missile-attack-1.615158

        • Bill 3.2.2.1
          20 January 2020 at 8:15 pm

          uh-huh

          As a standard procedure, all personnel in the vicinity of a blast are screened for traumatic brain injury, and if deemed appropriate are transported to a higher level of care,” Navy Capt. Bill Urban, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command, said in a prepared statement.

          Kinda like how they do for 'sonic attacks' being unleashed on embassy staff on small Caribbean islands? (Oh. And China too…not to forget being microwaved by pesky Russians…) 🙄

          • joe90 3.2.2.1.1
            20 January 2020 at 8:26 pm

            Not injured., but deemed to be in need of a higher level of care following TBI screening.

            Righto….

            • Bill 3.2.2.1.1.1
              20 January 2020 at 8:40 pm

              You don't think that a skeletal presence was maintained following Iran telling Iraq where and when missiles were going to strike? Because just maybe there was some precautionary thing around equipment or what not being left around an entirely abandoned base? Maybe 11 or so volunteers holed up in bunkers/shelters to give an instant evaluation of damage? Maybe given a "once over" for possible effects of percussion from blasts?

      • RedLogix 3.2.3
        20 January 2020 at 9:02 pm

        In the meantime while segments of the Western press were happy to frame Quassem Soleimani as the loss of a deeply beloved hero, while in Iran itself the regime is widely hated and ordinary Iranian's struggle with deteriorating living conditions.

        I've had considerable personal contact with various Iranian people, they are widely misrepresented and misunderstood in the West. I'm assuming the Western media has fucked up this latest episode as usual.

        • Bill 3.2.3.1
          20 January 2020 at 9:23 pm

          Peeps will no doubt make of this what they will…in spite of what's actually being said.

          Red Lines host Anya Parampil speaks with Setareh Sadeqi, a PhD candidate at the University of Tehran who lost family friends in the tragic Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 crash. Anya and Setareh discuss recent protests in Iran sparked by the crash, which western media have framed as an popular anti-government uprising. They also talk about the recent crackdown on Iranian news and social media accounts online, including the censorship of Press TV UK.

          • RedLogix 3.2.3.1.1
            20 January 2020 at 9:48 pm

            All I know for certain is the theocratic Iranian regime are not people whom the liberal left in the west should entertain as 'allies' in any sense of the word. No matter how anti-American they may be.

            • Bill 3.2.3.1.1.1
              20 January 2020 at 10:23 pm

              Gaslighting? Really? That all you got in lieu of engagement with or response to shared third person info/perspective?

              • RedLogix …
                20 January 2020 at 10:51 pm

                I dunno … maybe it was when I was standing next to the Iranian on the phone to his family back home, when they were explaining to him how much the government was charging them for the bullets used to execute his father. But that was a few decades ago now; maybe the leaders of this regime have transformed themselves into really nice people since.

                But I tell you what, you engage with the cite I gave, and I'll give your one a go.

                • Muttonbird …
                  20 January 2020 at 10:55 pm

                  Was this before or after you single-handedly brought fire to the Inuit of Canada?

                • Bill …
                  21 January 2020 at 6:56 pm

                  I did engage with the cite 🙄 you gave. It's junk. The very first sentence is a bit of give away – referring to the assassination of Soleimani simply as "the death of", before going to on and attempting to turn corporate media reporting upside down (I haven't seen evidence of corporate media lionizing Soleimani as claimed in that link)…and he didn't foster instability in "Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Yemen" as claimed. Neither did he lead "a group of armed thugs"…and that's just the first fucking paragraph!

                  But hey. I guess when the author of the piece is a former case officer who conducted operations against nuclear proliferation and terrorism for the CIA's National Clandestine Service , then a leetle bias might be par for the course, aye? 😉

                  You read any of his other stuff? The guy's a bit of a hoot.

                  Anyway. I gave you a link to an Iranian student living in Iran giving her perspective on recent events. Now I know she ain’t no ‘Bana of Aleppo’ and therefor unlikely to be courted by western media or western opinion, but hey…

                  • RedLogix …
                    21 January 2020 at 7:53 pm

                    Well using the same logic I feel zero obligation to trust your source either. I mean at least you can know who mine is, this student you reference, who knows?

                    Back to square one for both of us.

                    • Bill …
                      21 January 2020 at 9:23 pm

                      So you just read stuff and other stuff and it's all stuff and you haven't equipped yourself of any critical faculty that might help you discern if agendas may, are, or are not in play? And so can't navigate information…

                      So what do you do?

                      Are you akin to those liberals who smear anyone not adhering to "the script" that comes down from on governmental/corporate high?

                      Given the gaslighting in response to my initial comment, I guess that might be the case, aye?

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 January 2020 at 9:38 pm

                      Correct me if I'm wrong please, but I've read you as being consistently anti-American for a very long time. Your immediate response to dismiss any source who has previously worked in American intelligence is indicative of this. And you are certainly not alone in this bias, there are plenty of other lefties here who routinely fulminate on the putative evils of American empire.

                      Like all empires it has certainly had it's inglorious moments. But the notion that it's record is nothing but evil incarnate is a nonsense. What none of ever do is ask the simple question "compared to what?". What other post-WW2 counterfactual empire would have been any better by comparison? The idea that absent the Americans the world might have been a peaceful nirvana is entirely unsupported by any reasoned interpretation of history at all.

                      And yes all sources have their bias. It's knowing what it is that's useful.

                    • Bill …
                      21 January 2020 at 10:37 pm

                      You're wrong. Are you now standing corrected?

                      As for good analysis coming from ex-intelligence community types and such like, well…there's Snowden and Gen Lawrence Wilkerson, and Scott Ritter just off the top of my head. And of course, there are others (ex military etc) whose names aren't coming to mind right now.

                      And I've no idea why you reckon I think the world would be shangri-la if the US empire was no more.

            • adam 3.2.3.1.1.2
              20 January 2020 at 10:55 pm

              So your happy with the hard right militant Salafist Islamist crowd then Redlogix? Because that is what the US has been supporting, and that is a problem. But my real issue with you logic, is to kill the guy who helped knock off ISIS, is a real kick in the teeth to anyone who supports the rights and freedoms of people.

              The left should align with people not governments on that we can agree?

              Because the reality on the ground is the US is an empire, and Iran is not, no matter how shit their government is. If we support empire and empire games we are no better than the imperialist of the past – who were always the enemy of the economic freedom and rights of people at large.

              • RedLogix …
                20 January 2020 at 11:12 pm

                So your happy with the hard right militant Salafist Islamist crowd then Redlogix?

                What on earth would make you think that? I'm on record here for years as being highly critical of zealots and fundamentalists of all kinds.

                But my real issue with you logic, is to kill the guy who helped knock off ISIS, is a real kick in the teeth to anyone who supports the rights and freedoms of people.

                Does this mean that the enemy of enemy is always my friend? For example was the West supposed to then cuddle up to the mass murderer Stalin in the aftermath of WW2?

                If we support empire and empire games we are no better than the imperialist of the past

                Again I’m consistently on record as being opposed to empire and the only regular here who has constructively proposed an alternative future without it.

                • adam …
                  21 January 2020 at 11:39 am

                  For example was the West supposed to then cuddle up to the mass murderer Stalin in the aftermath of WW2?

                  No, but the west acted in a similar manner, and Iran is a good example of that. The west established a far right government which eventually gave rise to the islamic revolution. Let's talk central america, how much mass murder with the support of the west?

                  The west is not pure here, and the elephant in the room is the US has acted more and more like Imperalist arseholes since WW2.

                  Again I’m consistently on record as being opposed to empire and the only regular here who has constructively proposed an alternative future without it.

                  I think you think to much of your opinion. I hardly found your solutions reasonable nor constructive, some yes – but many of you suggestions are just the same old, same old, with a big dose of sleight of hand.

                  Like everyone else your own ideological prejudice get in the way. Hey I'm no different in that regard. We all do it.

                  Back to the point, all sides are lying – but the side with the ability to wipe the other side off the face of the planet is the one I want to hold the preverbal gas light to. The one in the more powerful position has more of a responsibility to act in good faith, and it's not.

                  For example if I had 100kg of TNT around your house and started a fight with you – is it my responsibility to not light the TNT because I'm angry or is it yours?

                  • RedLogix …
                    21 January 2020 at 12:34 pm

                    I hardly found your solutions reasonable nor constructive, some yes – but many of you suggestions are just the same old, same old, with a big dose of sleight of hand.

                    I didn't ask you to agree with them, just to acknowledge my consistent track record in proposing a detailed vision beyond 'the age of the nation state empire'.

                    There really is only one path forward from here, a universal vision of a united humanity, a global moral horizon and a political framework to implement this at the same scale.

  6. Sabine 6
    20 January 2020 at 8:20 pm

    Lev Parnas starte his work for the Trumps with Fred "The elder" Trump. But the orange menace has never met him,

    yeah, right Tui.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/er1930/i_dont_know_who_lev_parnas_is/

    fwiw, this last three years have been an excellent soap opera. Who needs TV when you can have politics.

  7. Muttonbird 7
    20 January 2020 at 10:26 pm

    How amusing. The moment David Seymour uses the name Aotearoa his fans revolt in the way only far right wing nut jobs can.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12301946