Open Mike 01/08/2017

73 comments on “Open Mike 01/08/2017 ”

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1. Andre 1

   1 August 2017 at 6:20 am

   Here’s an interesting story that played out behind all the smoke and noise of last week’s Chump eruptions. If there’s anything to this, it ties a lot of threads together in a damning way. It also raises the possibility that all the WTF from last week might have been a calculated distraction.

   http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/bill-browders-senate-judiciary-committee-hearing_uk_597ee55ce4b02a4ebb7675a6
2. Andre 2

   1 August 2017 at 6:58 am

   That didn’t last long. The Mooch has been cut loose.

   https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/07/31/anthony-scaramucci-out-white-house-communications-director/526300001/
   • Pat 2.1

     1 August 2017 at 7:14 am

     Trump running his admin like a “reality” tv show…..
     • Andre 2.1.1

       1 August 2017 at 7:23 am

       But the Mooch was getting fantastic ratings. If it was about the show, surely he’d be kept on a bit longer just to pull the punters. My money’s on the idea the The Mooch was even Trumpier than Trump, and that couldn’t be tolerated.
       • Pat 2.1.1.1

         1 August 2017 at 7:36 am

         who would know the reason…other than the obvious one that Trump is not the full quid
   • Sacha 2.2

     1 August 2017 at 7:33 am

     What a fandango.
   • EKP NUNNS 2.3

     1 August 2017 at 9:06 am

     If you own a swimming Pool and you haven’t used it for a while. You sometimes need to do a chlorine shock treatment to bring it back to a basic level, then reset the chemicals needed to maintain your Pool. I think The Mooch was the Shock Treatment
     and 10 days sounds about right. Happy Swimming
3. Ad 3

   1 August 2017 at 7:05 am

   The Mooch is gone.
   10 days must surely be a record.
4. Ad 4

   1 August 2017 at 7:09 am

   Pretty queer commentary from Jacinda Ardern on Radio NZ this morning.
   When commenting about the polls directly, she failed to give any direct support for Andrew Little. She simply deferred and started talking about policy and getting the message out.

   The Labour Party barely survived a change of leadership one year out from election last time, so it would be pretty disastrous to change the leader seven weeks out.

   I sincerely hope Andrew LIttle stays the course, and that all MP’s including the Deputy figure out that they must show and state that they support Andrew Little as leader.
   • Ed 4.1

     1 August 2017 at 7:22 am

     Good on her.
     Talk policies, not polls.
   • marty mars 4.2

     1 August 2017 at 8:50 am

     Leadership aspirations – be careful what you wish for cos you might get it.
   • halfcrown 4.3

     1 August 2017 at 8:50 am

     But isn’t that what Ed said they should do? Don’t dance to the tunes put up by prats like Gower. Own the moment don’t let them control it,
5. Ed 5

   1 August 2017 at 7:17 am

   Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the media used the opportunity provided by an election to look at the significant social and environmental issues facing the citizens of this country and the world, then look at the solutions presented by the various parties?

   But no. We get absolute garbage.

   Polls….
   Personalities….
   Scoops…….

   The media should be one of the stalwarts of our democracy.
   Instead it undermines and weakens it.

   There is no I. F. Stone in our media
   • Ed 5.1

     1 August 2017 at 7:18 am

     Or any intellectual like Noam Chomsky.

     The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
     • Ed 5.1.1

       1 August 2017 at 7:19 am

       Or journalists like Amy Goodman

       “Shadows of Liberty”: New Film Explores How Corporate Control of Media Erodes Press Freedoms
       • Ed 5.1.1.1

         1 August 2017 at 7:21 am

         And so we end up with mindless media parrots like Gower, Garner and Soper.
         Even worse our taxpayer funded media is fronted by puppets like Hosking and Espiner.
         • srylands 5.1.1.1.1

           1 August 2017 at 7:26 am

           Whoa. How is Hosking taxpayer funded?
         • Tamati Tautuhi 5.1.1.1.2

           1 August 2017 at 7:27 am

           Independent State Broadcaster ?
           • srylands 5.1.1.1.2.1

             1 August 2017 at 7:34 am

             If you are talking about TVNZ sure it is owned by the State. But unless Hosking gets any New Zealand on Air funding, which I doubt, there is no public money funding his show. Quite the opposite. His popularity allows TVNZ to charge a premium for ads in his time slot. Which adds to the bottom line which enables a dividend to the Crown.

             The real issue is why does the Government own a dog with fleas commercial TV station? It is because thanks to certain political parties there is now a built in hysteria to the State divesting itself of business that it should not be in.
             • McFlock …

               1 August 2017 at 1:43 pm

               lol

               says it provides a dividend, calls it a dog with fleas tv station.
   • srylands 5.2

     1 August 2017 at 7:24 am

     Exactly. The media cannot handle TOP because it is a policy based party. It rejects the innane left / right language. But the media can’t get much past Gareth and cats.

     The only choice in this election now is National supported by either TOP or New Zealand First. Get out there and support TOP. And donate money if you can afford it.
     • Andre 5.2.1

       1 August 2017 at 7:33 am

       What are your thoughts on TOP’s Comprehensive Capital Tax proposal?
       • srylands 5.2.1.1

         1 August 2017 at 7:38 am

         It is excellent. I agree with probably 80 percent of TOP policy. Their climate change and water policy is way ahead of any other political party. Their policy to increase the drinking age to 20 is nuts but you can’t have everything.
         • Andre 5.2.1.1.1

           1 August 2017 at 7:48 am

           What do you like about the CCT? Particularly, why do you think it’s better than a capital gains tax? I’m looking for reasons to like the CCT, and RedLogix had a go at persuading me of it’s merits but didn’t convince me.
           • You_Fool 5.2.1.1.1.1

             1 August 2017 at 7:59 am

             srylands likes it because he hopes 4.99% of people vote for it, ensuring that 4.99% of potential change the government votes are wasted chasing the TOP. These are 4.99% of voters not voting for NZF or the greens or Labour, so that is a win for srylands
             • Andre …

               1 August 2017 at 8:15 am

               Surely someone of deeply held principles such as srylands can elucidate the merits of a policy he’s just said he approves of.
           • srylands 5.2.1.1.1.2

             1 August 2017 at 8:27 am

             Because a comprehensive capital tax incentivises people to examine their capital holdings on an ongoing basis. Not just when they are selling. Such a tax would stop over investing in houses.

             If you want to read about it in detail, Geoff Simmons has written about it. Just Google it or watch his video.

             Example my family member who is 91 lives in a $4 million 6 bedroom house in Pakarunga. Ridiculous. But he has no incentive to invest that capital in productive assets.
             • Molly …

               1 August 2017 at 9:30 am

               It is surprising that people who usually consider “property rights” to be sacrosanct, in this case are quick to determine what that personal property should be used for.

               In this case, you believe that family member needs to divest his choice of residence, and invest in “productive assets”. What is your definition of productive assets? And why productive, instead of social assets or environmental? He may well be in a place he considers ideal, with community contacts and neighbours that he enjoys. Even if he is not, the principle is the same. Are you so tired of spending your own money, that you feel a need to dictate how others spend theirs?
       • The Lone Haranguer 5.2.1.2

         1 August 2017 at 8:46 am

         I too like the TOP Comprehensive Tax Policy (and their families only) UBI.

         And I genuinely believe that they have almost nothing in common with ther Nats, so would support a Labour lead/participating government.

         With the turmoil of recent days regarding the Labour leadership, Im ready to bet a tray of sossy rolls on Winston being the next PM.

         After all, he will tell everyone that hes the man with all the experience to lead the country………
         • Molly 5.2.1.2.1

           1 August 2017 at 9:47 am

           The reasoning behind taxing the residential property someone is living in is flawed on multiple levels.

           It ignores the social and community connections that contribute to wellbeing of those who have lived in the same neighbourhood for years, and gives them two options to pay taxes. To downsize their residence, or to invite others to live with them.

           The TOP solution is delayed payment, but that is a cultural hurdle unlikely to be overcome without considerable distress and pain.

           TOP also provides scenarios that consider the mortgage of a occupied residential house to be the same as a term investment of capital. This ignores the reality that many have taken mortgages out and by the time the house is paid off, the amount invested has often been four to five times the original price. They then tax you on the imputed rent that you have “saved”.
           Brilliant, no?

           The other comparable scenario that they provide is the necessity to pay CGT on investment properties. Also ignoring the fact that maintenance expenses are permitted with investments, which reduce the amount of tax paid by investors. Maintenance of your own home adds up over the years and will be taken out of net income for most people.

           The other issues they don’t mention, is the appropriate taxing of income or benefits from family trusts etc, and the use of other ownership vehicles to protect assets, and income from being taxed appropriately. Because of this, the ones who will be consistently paying these taxes are the ones who are wage and salary earners, without separate companies, trusts and accountants who know how to provide benefits without declaring personal income for taxation.

           Very little attention is given to the tax avoidance by multi-nationals – apart from – we will look at it.

           And the deferment of company taxes for up to three years, will be abused by those who already treat company formations like a row of dominoes to be set up and knocked down in order to leave behind compliance and debt messes.
           • greywarshark 5.2.1.2.1.1

             1 August 2017 at 2:00 pm

             Molly good one. Having to defend the right to own a house (what effontery from little people) – that goes up in value because it’s one of the few worthwhile investments in the country, is trying to tax the air you breathe, the quality and friendliness of your neighbours and so on. The social value, the family time that is spent in the house, the place where you can be warm and think about what life is, can entertain other humans and animals, it is an extension of the people living in it.

             But the hard-edged economists who like everything cut and dried, neat and packed, would probably say we should stack in like sardines, like in the cheap sleep hotels with pods you climb into, shut the grill and have a decent kip for low cost. But for a home you want more. And not to be charged for everything in life:

             This keeps coming to mind from Le Mis – sorry if you/ve seen it before.

             Charge ’em for the lice, extra for the mice
             Two percent for looking in the mirror twice (Hand it over!)
             Here a little slice, there a little cut
             Three percent for sleeping with the window shut
             When it comes to fixing prices
             There are a lot of tricks I knows
             How it all increases, all them bits and pieces
             Jesus! It’s amazing how it grows!

             And a pome about the politicians in Gnashional:
             Master of the house? Isn’t worth my spit!
             Comforter, philosopher and lifelong shit!
             Cunning little brain, regular Voltaire
             Thinks he’s quite a lover but there’s not much there
             What a cruel trick of nature landed me with such a louse
             God knows how I’ve lasted living with this bastard in the house!
             AZLYRICS
             (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k6uqhKEAOM
             • Draco T Bastard …

               1 August 2017 at 4:21 pm

               Having to defend the right to own a house

               Ah, but is owning houses a right anybody should have?
               • Molly …

                 1 August 2017 at 7:25 pm

                 I would agree with you Draco if we had a legislative and economic framework that provided long-term secure tenancy.

                 At present, that does not exist, and it is most likely only property owners that will be able to offer friends, family (and strangers) accommodation. Many tenancies have an upper limit to tenant numbers.

                 Also, there is a guardianship that exists in long-term land ownership, of which our Robert Guyton is a good example. A long-term positive environmental vision is more likely to be realised on private property, and it is unlikely that that would be true for government owned/managed properties.

                 Ideally a collective ownership model would provide both the flexibility, and the connection to place that would create a culture where both environment and community were positively nurtured.

                 But we are not there yet.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   1 August 2017 at 9:32 pm

                   I would agree with you Draco if we had a legislative and economic framework that provided long-term secure tenancy.

                   True but it’s only legislation. Same as the idea that land/home ownership is secure. It’s only legislation.

                   And in NZ the state owns the land anyway and it can be taken off you at any time – as long as due compensation is made. Just make the same apply to state rentals.

                   A long-term positive environmental vision is more likely to be realised on private property

                   No it’s not.

                   All those farmers out there destroying our waterways and destroying our land through unsustainable practices own the fucken land.

                   and it is unlikely that that would be true for government owned/managed properties.

                   Government is accountable to the public whereas private isn’t. This means that we can steer the government to better land practices. Which apparently we can’t do with private land ownership.

                   Ideally a collective ownership model would provide both the flexibility, and the connection to place that would create a culture where both environment and community were positively nurtured.

                   A communal system is far more likely to do that than a capitalist system which only destroys.
                   • Molly …

                     1 August 2017 at 10:03 pm

                     Well, I’ll keep on submitting for planning provisions and frameworks that encourage and support community ownership. I think the ownership needs to be community sized and locally managed rather than controlled at a national level for optimal outcomes.

                     Till then, am seriously considering how to install an environmentally friendly septic system in our unused land without giving an indication to council that we will invite tiny house dwellers to share our location. (have about 1500m2 next to our only storage shed. Any workable suggestions welcome)
   • NewsFlash 5.3

     1 August 2017 at 7:28 pm

     Ed

     You can thank Murdoch for that, NZ no longer has a true democracy, John Key’s only legacy
6. Tamati Tautuhi 6

   1 August 2017 at 7:26 am

   Little and Labour need to dig deep and stop in fighting which is what the Natzis and MSM want, we require a united Labour Party if we are going to have a constructive Coalition Government, either Labour & NZF or Labour/NZF/Greens ?
   • chris73 6.1

     1 August 2017 at 7:37 am

     Yes as a National (potential NZFirst voter) I hope Andrew Little stays on as Labour leader
   • Sam C 6.2

     1 August 2017 at 7:46 am

     Little is toast. What a bloody shambles.
7. Psych nurse 7

   1 August 2017 at 7:53 am

   Congratulations MSM and dirty politics, you have just destroyed your fourth Labour leader, time yet to start on the next.
   • Violet 7.1

     1 August 2017 at 8:21 am

     Seem to be hell bent on turning NZ into a one party state
   • The Lone Haranguer 7.2

     1 August 2017 at 8:59 am

     You can blame the MSM all you like, but its your dopey and disloyal MPs including Littles deputy (and Mike Wiliams) who are feeding the media the stuff they want to hear.

     I suspect that Little is toast this time.
     • Ad 7.2.1

       1 August 2017 at 9:13 am

       Not a single MP in the Labour caucus came out with an endorsement of Andrew Little in the last 48 hours.
8. mikes 8

   1 August 2017 at 7:56 am

   Looks like yet another Labour leader gone.

   You would think that after this many leaders in such a short time they would realise that the problem is not the leader, it is the party, those within it who set the tone and what the party is perceived to stand for. The MSM, the National party, etc are not responsible, the party is.

   Adern is not the answer. Labour needs to distance itself from the Greens, the PC, the broad church, talk of quotas, etc, etc and return to it’s roots. Labour has to be unafraid to offend some people, it has forgotten about the working class and has suffered as a result.
   • Sam C 8.1

     1 August 2017 at 8:01 am

     “You would think that after this many leaders in such a short time they would realise that the problem is not the leader, it is the party, those within it who set the tone and what the party is perceived to stand for.”

     You are correct, of course. However, it is far easier to blame the dastardly MSM, Hooten, Phil Quin, Josie Pagani, Mike Hosking, Guyon Espiner, Uncle Tom Cobley.

     In fact, blame anyone if it will divert from the fact that Labour doesn’t have any credible policy, Clint Smith is a moron as far as strategy and comms is concerned and the whole party is an absolute mess.
   • Sacha 8.2

     1 August 2017 at 8:26 am

     “Labour needs to distance itself from the Greens” – because that worked so well for them in 2014. It’s MMP, get used to it.
     • Sam C 8.2.1

       1 August 2017 at 8:29 am

       “It’s MMP, get used to it”.

       Well, you’d at least have to agree that Labour is doing something wrong in the MMP environment? 4 terms in opposition would tend to suggest they haven’t quite nailed a winning strategy for MMP…
     • mikes 8.2.2

       1 August 2017 at 5:21 pm

       I am used to MMP. I voted for MMP and I like MMP. The working class and the Greens are incompatible. Lbour needs the working class more than it needs the Greens. How many more leaders until the party wakes up.
9. Tamati Tautuhi 9

   1 August 2017 at 7:58 am

   National have used the same strategy in the last 3-4 Elections and Labour have bought into it, when will they learn, harden up, time for another cup of concrete Andrew Little & Labour, do not bend over for National and MSM, New Zealand needs a strong Labour Leader going forward. 5 Labour Leaders in 9 Years all initiated by National & MSM ?
10. esoteric pineapples 10

    1 August 2017 at 8:18 am

    A shocking insight into the last days of the battle for Mosul and the behaviour or Iraqi soldiers

    http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/mosuls-final-bloodbath-we-killed-everyone-men-women-children-1721780413
11. Adrian Thornton 11

    1 August 2017 at 8:19 am

    Mike Williams stabs Little in the back with a large knife RNZ this morning…fatal wound?

    The way forward..Labour the unapologetic socialist party of Workers, the youth, the disenfranchised and the environment.

    Turn Labour Left!
    • The Lone Haranguer 11.1

      1 August 2017 at 8:55 am

      Adrian Thornton, That sounds like the Greens to me.
12. Pat 12

    1 August 2017 at 8:26 am

    ones has to wonder about the political nous of the PLP….Little resigning or being rolled will only be a negative for the future of the Labour Party…..and it won’t save anyones seat either, likely the contrary…..braindead the lot of them.
13. r0b 13

    1 August 2017 at 8:42 am

    New post on Labour’s leadership meeting is up.
    • Sacha 13.1

      1 August 2017 at 8:57 am

      Here: https://thestandard.org.nz/labour-leadership-meeting/
14. Ad 14

    1 August 2017 at 9:12 am

    If anyone thinks that running a Green-influenced government will be easy, check out how hard it is to get one single cycleway in one of the highest Green-polling areas in the country:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/95300945/hundreds-turn-out-for-public-meeting-on-final-designs-for-rebooted-island-bay-cycleway

    This is a war with the Council and neighbourhood about the removal of 57 car parks. Apparently that would “economically ruin the suburb.”
15. marty mars 15

    1 August 2017 at 9:15 am

    Lifeline funding cut 800k – more suicides and serious self harming now as people crack under their pressures.
    • weka 15.1

      1 August 2017 at 1:56 pm

      I’ll try and put a post up once all the hooha has died down.
16. Wayne 16

    1 August 2017 at 9:55 am

    Another ridiculous ban. Your right of course, but why?

    There is nothing particularly unusual in Gosman’s comment (it is just his opinion) that merits such draconian action.

    [take the rest of the week off. Read the Policy. Track down Lynn’s recent comments about moderation and the election and the burden on moderator time. If you want to talk about moderation decisions, at the least you need to do that in a respectful way (hint, starting a comment with “another ridiculous ban” isn’t it) and that doesn’t waste moderator time.

    Yes, Gosman’s comment was usual for Gosman, and that’s a pattern of behaviour for his brand of trolling. He’s having a go at the site participants (authors and commenters) in a deliberate windup. That’s clearly against the site rules. He’s ascribing implied views to people here but so generally it can’t be rebutted without becoming a derail. Which is what Gosman wants. Unfortunately for him but fortunately for the rest of us, the point of TS is to provide a space for and foster debate for the broader labour movement. We are under no obligations to provide space for trolls.

    For context for others, here’s the ban https://thestandard.org.nz/labour-leadership-meeting/#comment-1360333 – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • Robert Guyton 16.1

      1 August 2017 at 3:56 pm

      Wayne – you’re swooping pretty low here, donchathink?
17. greywarshark 17

    1 August 2017 at 1:19 pm

    “The Greens are neo liberals on bikes.
    Running a surplus is fiscally irresponsible when…”

    Some interesting ideas that shake the tree so that all the high fruit becomes available for the peeps down below.

    We have to absorb the change in leadership, done. And can start the next chapter of the book soon. In the meantime you can listen to economic theory for the ret of this century which will help treat some of our ailments.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/201852897/there-s-no-such-thing-as-fair-austerity
18. Poission 18

    1 August 2017 at 1:42 pm

    “The Greens are neo liberals on bikes.

    Who get told to bugger off.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/95300945/hundreds-turn-out-for-public-meeting-on-final-designs-for-rebooted-island-bay-cycleway
19. mauī 19

    1 August 2017 at 1:49 pm

    Labour’s billboard issue solved, dig the 2008 ones out of the garage and put some hair extensions on Helen.

    http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/labour-partys-first-campaign-billboard-is-displayed-at-a-residence-in-picture-id82798161
20. dad4justice 20

    1 August 2017 at 3:38 pm

    The new Labour leader must distance herself from the criminal actions of the greens to be able to survive.

    [aw ffs. Banned. There have been no “criminal actions of the greens”] – Bill

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    

    [2 months]
    • RedLogix 20.1

      1 August 2017 at 3:45 pm

      I’m not logged in as a moderator from my current location, but this earns d4j a ban in my book. Trolling, diversion, ugly and unoriginal.

      (The sad part is that once upon a time you were better than this d4j).
      • dad4justice 20.1.1

        1 August 2017 at 3:48 pm

        RedLogix I was being nice NZ needs a Labour Party with integrity and honest principles.
        • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1.1

          1 August 2017 at 3:52 pm

          Not really. Another party can rise and take over where MJS left off.

          Just like the Greens are doing in fact.
    • One Anonymous Bloke 20.2

      1 August 2017 at 3:46 pm

      

      So at least I have the schadenfreude of listening to your wailing to enjoy.
    • Robert Guyton 20.3

      1 August 2017 at 3:58 pm

      In any case, lower-case greens. Dad was never “better than this”.
21. McFlock 21

    1 August 2017 at 3:51 pm

    Dunno about the leadership change cleaning outdead wood from Labour, but it seems to have helped clean tories away from TS
    • Draco T Bastard 21.1

      1 August 2017 at 3:53 pm

      They’re just waiting for the focus grouped replies to come back from T/C and DPF.
      • McFlock 21.1.1

        1 August 2017 at 3:56 pm

        Nah, I was thinking more of the longer-term attrition due to playing in mod traffic
22. greywarshark 22

    1 August 2017 at 9:49 pm

    Yanis Varoufakis from May Ted Talk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB4s5b9NL3I
    Capitalism will eat democracy — unless we speak up

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