Open mike 09/11/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 9th, 2023 - 102 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

102 comments on “Open mike 09/11/2023 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    9 November 2023 at 6:19 am

    Ex-Labour hack explains why progressive activists oughtn't join Labour: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/07-11-2023/no-the-greens-dont-have-a-labour-problem

    I’m writing this in response to Ollie Neas’s excellent piece The Greens’ Labour problem, in which he questioned whether the Green Party was the right focal point for leftwing political energy in New Zealand… it’s an intelligent and cogent contribution to the debate and honestly, I’m just relieved it wasn’t another Blue-Green take.

    Youngsters still in the keen phase, yet to go through burn-out…

    • Incognito 1.1
      9 November 2023 at 9:22 am

      And as usual, your commentary is nothing but snide remarks about the messenger(s).

      You are obviously too lazy, unable, and unwilling to come up with “an intelligent and cogent contribution to the debate” and your attempt at a Yoda impersonation causes cracks in the Force.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    9 November 2023 at 6:27 am

    David Williams is Newsroom's environment editor & South Island correspondent. He does a thoughtful appraisal of the Green electorate victory trend extending southward.

    The Greens now have two list MPs from Christchurch – Carter and Lan Pham – as well as Otago’s Scott Willis, boosting its South Island representation. Across Banks Peninsula, Christchurch Central, Christchurch East, Ilam, and Wigram, the Greens gained almost 11,500 raw party votes on the 2020 election results. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/seeds-planted-for-a-green-win-in-christchurch

    Pham, a former Environment Canterbury councillor, got 8325 votes in Banks Peninsula… a big gain on outgoing list MP Eugenie Sage’s 2020 result of 6222. Party vote for the Greens was 19.6 percent in Banks Peninsula, and 19.4 percent in Christchurch Central, well up on 2020’s proportions of 14.3 percent and 12.8 percent, respectively.

    Dunne, the former United Future leader, says the Greens will be reviewing its overall strategy – and he suspects it’ll go "all out" for two-tick campaigns at the next election in a bid to win more electorate seats.

    Yeah that makes sense. No more being nice to Labour. Ride the wave.

    • Ad 2.1
      9 November 2023 at 10:20 pm

      The natural Greens target would be Dunedin where the Greens got 11,500 Party vote and Labour 13,000. That's now very reversible in 2026.

      Brooking was 9,000 votes ahead of the Green candidate, but frankly after Mt Albert and Auckland Central that's do-able. I’m sure Greens’ Scott Willis has figured this out already.

  3. gsays 3
    9 November 2023 at 6:48 am

    In a nutshell:

    "Uncertainty about motivations, origins and influence of lobbyist groups can erode trust in democratic process."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/501982/revolving-door-for-lobbyists-can-result-in-unfair-access-justice-ministry

    I shouldn't be surprised but disgraced former ministers pop up as a lobbyists.

    "Since then, Kiri Allan resigned as Justice Minister and has started her own consultancy and lobbying firm. Stuart Nash also quit as a Cabinet Minister and now has a role which includes lobbying for global recruitment firm Robert Walters."

    There is a lot of talk about lobbyists and MPs. This still doesn't go far enough, contact with officials, advisors or any in the public service should be bought under any reforms.

    We live in an age where trust in institutions is at an all time low, it is disheartening to hear that the Commerce Commission had to pay more $ on top of the $1.7million they pay their own comms staff.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/501838/lobbying-and-communications-firm-senate-s-wildly-inappropriate-contracts-at-commerce-commission-revealed

    Good work by Guyon Espinor and team.

    • Dennis Frank 3.1
      9 November 2023 at 7:53 am

      Dr Bryce is on the case: https://democracyproject.nz/2023/11/09/bryce-edwards-should-government-departments-be-giving-contracts-to-lobbying-firms/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=bryce-edwards-should-government-departments-be-giving-contracts-to-lobbying-firms

      The arrangement has been condemned from across the political spectrum. Writer and analyst Max Rashbrooke is quoted by Espiner explaining why this is a problem: “If you’ve got a lobbying firm – whose job it is to get government decisions changed in favour of its clients – embedded right in the heart of government, then I think that’s totally inappropriate.”

      Similarly, the Taxpayers’ Union has called for an investigation, saying “the Commission has effectively allowed a lobbying firm to infiltrate and potentially manipulate regulatory processes. This is a blatant conflict of interest, undermining the Commission’s role as an unbiased regulator and betraying public trust.”

      When lobbyists get attacked from both left & right simultaneously, do they respond "Hey you guys, commercial democracy is where it's at!"? Yes, if they have a sense of humour. Can always follow up with a history lesson on how the establishment parties have legislated for it for half a century. Teach youngsters a thing or two…

      • Muttonbird 3.1.1
        9 November 2023 at 11:56 am

        Unbelievable arrogance and hypocrisy from Edwards. Funding for his own political project is as opaque as they come.

        • gsays 3.1.1.1
          9 November 2023 at 12:12 pm

          I'm intrigued, can you elaborate plz?

        • Incognito 3.1.1.2
          9 November 2023 at 12:18 pm

          Rather than focussing on Edwards’ hypocrisy and arrogance, perceived or not, and his disclosed and undisclosed funding sources, perhaps you could try to address the content of his piece?

    • Gabby 3.2
      10 November 2023 at 12:03 pm

      did Nash only start lobbying when he quit Parliament?

    • AB 4.1
      9 November 2023 at 10:25 am

      Agreed. National's rhetoric about Labour's failure to "deliver" over-simplified a complicated reality. There were indeed failures to deliver (tax reform), and there were also cases such as this, where National hated the fact that Labour delivered stuff for the 'wrong' social class.

  5. bwaghorn 5
    9 November 2023 at 7:12 am

    Am I the only one with the standard showing up in a very odd format?

    • lprent 5.1
      9 November 2023 at 9:05 am

      There was a major wordpress update last night. You may have caching issues.

      I’ll try resetting all of the caches. But you might need to force a reload on your browser on at least one TS page to get it fixed in the short-term. Can’t tell you what that is in your browser/OS without knowing what you are on. Common ones are in this line.

      https://filecamp.com/support/problem-solving/hard-refresh

    • bwaghorn 5.2
      9 November 2023 at 1:02 pm

      On a android mobile , don't think the link covers it , but am a far better sheep shagger than tech guy

      • Red Blooded One 5.2.1
        9 November 2023 at 1:29 pm

        You're not alone, my Android has the weird format as of today too. couldn't figure out a Hard Refresh being a "Dinosaur" myself, so only back to the computer to read The Standard for now.

  6. Bearded Git 6
    9 November 2023 at 8:53 am

    Owen Jones puts the needless Gaza slaughter in perspective here.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/08/protesting-armistice-day-peace-war

  7. Dennis Frank 7
    9 November 2023 at 8:58 am

    Real people, real votes… https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/08/democrat-biden-poll-election-virginia-kentucky-ohio

    Perhaps the biggest pre-2024 barometer was Virginia, where the Republican governor, Glenn Youngkin, who has assailed voting rights, poured tens of millions of dollars into an effort to gain full control of the statehouse and impose a 15-week abortion ban.

    Instead Democrats secured both chambers, simultaneously killing off rumours of a last-minute Youngkin presidential bid.

    Joe Scarborough, a cable news TV host and former Republican congressman, commented on Wednesday: “The overturning of Roe has got to be the most devastating single event for the Republican party since Watergate.”

    One man who understands this is Trump himself. Although he likes to remind religious conservatives that his supreme court appointments made the overturning of Roe v Wade possible, he has also used 2024 election campaign speeches to urge pragmatism and warn his base that abortion bans are a vote loser.

    Reproductive rights supporters won big in an Ohio ballot measure. The Democratic governor, Andy Beshear, was re-elected in Kentucky by campaigning on reproductive rights while his challenger, the state attorney general, Daniel Cameron, touted his endorsement by former president Donald Trump. A Democrat won an open seat on the Pennsylvania supreme court after campaigning on his pledge to uphold abortion rights.

    Chris Christie, who is challenging Trump for the nomination, cited Tuesday’s result in deep-red Kentucky. “Cameron was a rising star in the Republican party until he decided to throw his lot in with Donald Trump,” he told CNN. “Let’s face it, Donald Trump is political and electoral poison down ballot.”

    Looks like an ebb tide going out on Trump & Republicans.

  8. Chris 8
    9 November 2023 at 9:40 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133257223/wait-for-lifechanging-surgery-continues-after-acc-takes-nine-months-to-refuse-her-claim

    Cases like this wouldn't be an issue if the full plan for health and accident compensation as recommended in the Woodhouse Report had been put in place instead of only half of it, which is what we have today, the other half being axed by Muldoon in 1975. Luxon says he’s gonna fix everything. Maybe the prick can fix this?

    • weka 8.1
      9 November 2023 at 9:47 am

      in addition to letting things slide like NZ has, we're now in a mess from the pandemic and ongoing staff shortages, system break downs, and general sub par performance. We really need to be shifting into transition and adaptation thinking instead of expecting someone to return us to previous normal.

  9. tsmithfield 9
    9 November 2023 at 9:40 am

    Something I find really annoying about our democratic process is the amount of money wasted when governments change. One government may have spent millions or even billions on some projects or another only for a new government to scrap said projects because they don't align with their own priorities, or they see things a different way.

    I think there needs to be some sort of cross party strategic committee that makes decisions about strategic projects. A good example would have been Three Waters. It appears that both Labour and National realise there are problems that need to be solved. It would have been good if that issue could have been put to a cross-party strategic committee so that a solution that all sides can agree on could be implimented.

    Such a process would likely result in much more sustainable and better solutions to significant problems.

    • KJT 9.1
      9 November 2023 at 9:45 am

      National don't want to solve it.

      They want it to be a fuckup so they can privatise!

      Just like their creeping privatisation of our public health system, that has, and is, causing it’s demise

      • AB 9.1.1
        9 November 2023 at 10:36 am

        From National's perspective, it makes sense to leave the problem to Councils whose only tools are to increase rates or borrow. Higher rates, along with rising insurance costs due to CC, will see a number of people who own houses but have lower incomes (e.g. the retired) having to sell up. If you simultaneously inflate asset prices through foreign buyers and re-incentivising domestic investors, then it becomes harder for first home buyers as well. Like a beautiful pincer movement, these two forces will accelerate the concentration of home ownership into the hands of mega landlords. The new feudalism beckons.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.2
        9 November 2023 at 10:47 am

        Yep, privatisation of Kiwi public services and assets facilitates the diversification and growth of unearned income streams for the wealthy – <a href="https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/74219/almost-year-after-last-official-state-asset-sale-david-hargreaves-has-look-how"rel="nofollow ugc"Nats have form.

        Creeping Privatisation [19 Sept 2023]
        Its findings reinforce the WHO’s message: invest in the workforce or risk a public health system meltdown.

        Water pricing and affordability in the US: public vs. private ownership
        [2022]

        • Privately owned water systems have higher water prices and are less affordable.
        • Water prices are higher in states with regulation that favors private investors.
        • Water affordability is lower in communities with higher poverty and aging infrastructure, regardless of ownership type.
        • Water policy needs to address issues of regulatory control and mechanisms to enhance affordability.
        • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.2.1
          9 November 2023 at 11:24 am

          Mucked up formatting the link to David Hargreaves analysis of the electricity company asset sales – this one works.

          Almost a year after the last (official) state asset sale, David Hargreaves has a look at how the investors – and the taxpayers – have fared [Feb 2015]

          It is still much too early to judge the success or failure of the asset sales programme – but worth having a look at where we are right now anyway in terms of dollars and cents.

          The early signs are that the investors are doing okay, thanks very much, while the taxpayer – maybe not so much.

          In the end the number of people investing in the asset sales was only in the low hundreds of thousands (hard to come up with exact figures because there will undoubtedly be double-ups).

          https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/74219/almost-year-after-last-official-state-asset-sale-david-hargreaves-has-look-how

          In 1991 the Nats introduced the Energy Sector Reform Bill (later split to become five separate acts, including the Energy Companies Act 1992 and the Electricity Act 1992), containing provisions facilitating the corporatisation of electricity supply authorities and a wide range of regulatory measures.

          It's just the way Nat pollies and there backers think and plan (long term) – how can the wealthy maximise their extraction of unearned income from publicly-funded services and infrastructure. It has little-to-nothing to do with the wider public good – NZ is just a cash cow being milked dry by already wealthy Kiwis, imho.

    • gsays 9.2
      9 November 2023 at 12:22 pm

      If politicians are half as tribal and partisan as most commenters here, unfortunately you have no show.

      I agree with yr sentiment though.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 9.2.1
        9 November 2023 at 2:20 pm

        Imho, many Kiwi politicians are more tribal and partisan than most commentators here, and most "bottom feeders", so yes, "no show" as the effects of inequality and overshoot play out. Aotearoa NZ could do with a bit more of "He Waka Eke Noa", but Mammon demands absolute loyality.

        Christopher Luxon calls New Zealand 'very negative, wet, whiney, inward-looking' [12 June 2023]
        "We have become a very negative, wet, whiney, inward-looking country and we have lost the plot and we have got to get our mojo back," Luxon said to one farmer.

        For National, that means getting farmers back onside, so they're kicking the emissions can down the paddock by five years.
        …
        The Government's aiming for an agricultural emissions scheme by 2025 but that's looking unlikely given the stalemate on He Waka Eke Noa, a plan it designed with 14 sector groups.

        "There was a plan produced a year ago by the sector. The Government blew it up, shot it to bits and killed it," Luxon said.

    • Visubversa 9.3
      9 November 2023 at 12:30 pm

      National and Labour had a joint agreement about housing and land use. National scrapped it unilaterally during the Election campaign.

      • tsmithfield 9.3.1
        9 November 2023 at 4:59 pm

        Yeah. I wasn't too impressed with that.

        • Belladonna 9.3.1.1
          9 November 2023 at 5:13 pm

          I suspect that the focus group feedback from the NP core membership, about 3x 3-story houses on every plot of land – was volcanic.

    • observer 9.4
      9 November 2023 at 2:37 pm

      A good first step would be the independent costings unit, as proposed previously, and as practised in other democracies. Test policies against financial reality, and tell the public before they vote.

      Who vetoed it? National.

      Parties' 'Fiscal Holes' Highlight the Need for Independent Costings Watchdog | Newsroom

    • Tiger Mountain 11.1
      9 November 2023 at 12:55 pm

      A mainstream media channel window on IDF butchers going about their work. I just hope that international solidarity keeps building to the point where Israel has to stop the slaughter and destruction, and that somehow a negotiated settlement will begin.

      Cultural and economic boycotts bought South Africa’s apartheid state to account, and BDS can do that now, and provide a way from this distance to help the Palestinian cause. Check that Tahini jar label, and don’t buy a new Sodastream or Puma shoes.

      https://bdsmovement.net

      • Adrian Thornton 11.1.1
        9 November 2023 at 4:52 pm

        "I just hope that international solidarity keeps building to the point where Israel has to stop the slaughter and destruction, and that somehow a negotiated settlement will begin"

        Israeli Zionists have never wanted to negotiate, and they won't stop their slaughter because they are doing what they have always wanted to do, and have the full protection of the USA to carry out their ethnic cleansing….

        This is The Western Rules Based Order in all it's glory is on display for the entire world to witness… impotently doing nothing..it is a fucking disgrace.

        It is like watching a twisted version of the Warsaw uprising being played out right in front of us in 2023.

        Notice how all the Ra RA Never Negotiate Ukraine war crowd on this site have been almost silent on this Ethnic Cleansing… I doubt if many of those idiots have had an original thought pass through their lazy brains for decades…not told to be outraged and support the people of Gaza…so they aren’t…it is as simple as that.

        • Belladonna 11.1.1.1
          9 November 2023 at 5:18 pm

          And what is your opinion about the (entirely successful) ethnic cleansing carried out against the Jews in Libya?

          ['Successful' as in there is not one Jew left in that country]

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Libya

          • Francesca 11.1.1.1.1
            9 November 2023 at 5:43 pm

            I can’t imagine the Palestinians were responsible for that.They’re certainly paying the price though , for what Europeans did to the jews .

            • SPC 11.1.1.1.1.1
              9 November 2023 at 5:54 pm

              A misrepresentation surely – given the 1947 UN partition plan was based on the League of Nations mandate, which was based on the Balfour Declaration (1917).

            • Belladonna 11.1.1.1.1.2
              9 November 2023 at 5:55 pm

              I don't recall saying the Palestinians were responsible.
              And, it was the Libyans (Arabs) who were doing the ethnic cleansing – not the Europeans.

          • Adrian Thornton 11.1.1.1.2
            9 November 2023 at 6:23 pm

            What has that got to do with this?

            • Belladonna 11.1.1.1.2.1
              9 November 2023 at 7:18 pm

              More than Ukraine does.

              I should have thought that the complete ethnic cleansing of Jews from the surrounding Arab countries would be a relevant factor, in Israeli trust (or otherwise) of Arab intentions.

        • SPC 11.1.1.2
          9 November 2023 at 5:19 pm

          .

          In total, around six million Ukrainian refugees were registered across Europe and 6.2 million worldwide as of September 2023. Most of them fled the country by crossing the border with Poland.

          https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refugees-by-country/

          After over a decade of conflict, Syria remains the world’s largest refugee crisis. Since 2011, more than 14 million Syrians have been forced to flee their homes in search of safety. More than 6.8 million Syrians remain internally displaced in their own country where 70 percent of the population is in need of humanitarian assistance and 90 percent of the population live below the poverty line.

          https://www.unrefugees.org/news/syria-refugee-crisis-explained/

          https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/31/northwest-syria-witnesses-most-intense-military-escalation-in-three-years

          https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/6/kill-me-here-but-i-am-not-going-back-an-afghan-refugee-in-pakistan

          https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/7/as-pakistan-deports-refugees-tense-afghanistan-ties-come-in-sharp-focus

          • Adrian Thornton 11.1.1.2.1
            9 November 2023 at 6:24 pm

            What has any of that got to do with this crime against humanity?

            • SPC 11.1.1.2.1.1
              9 November 2023 at 6:29 pm

              You referred to this ethnic cleansing – how many people of Gaza have left the area of Gaza?

              • Adrian Thornton …
                9 November 2023 at 6:39 pm

                Who knows…what is your point…just say what it is, and stop beating around the bush.

                How would you describe the layer upon layer of war crimes the Zionists are inflicting on the population of Gaza?

                • SPC …
                  9 November 2023 at 6:56 pm

                  You made a claim of ethnic cleansing.

                  I gave real world examples of the outcome of war.

                  War results in refugees. An oppressive regime results in refugees not wanting to return, even when the war is over.

                  how many people of Gaza have left the area of Gaza?

                  Given you cannot answer – what is known is that Egypt is only allowing nationals not of Gaza across the border.

                  War results in deaths – 600,000 in Syria. Recent resumption of urban bombing in Syria and Ukraine has caused more deaths.

                  Why are deaths of civilians called ethnic cleansing in Gaza, but not those in Ukraine or Syria?

                  What is also known is that Israel wanted the population of Gaza City to move to southern Gaza so it could then move in the IDF to fight Hamas (who have underground bases there) in that area.

                  What in Syria is called displaced persons.

                  Israel can be accused of killing civilians in Gaza (because of an acceptance of deaths within a zone of a target), but not of ethnic cleansing.

                  Get it.

                  • Adrian Thornton …
                    9 November 2023 at 7:24 pm

                    You know what, I am not going to engage with you..anyone whose moral compass is so broken that they can sit there and play down (so in essence defend) the war savage crimes that the degenerate, apartheid state of Israel is commiting on civilians in Gaza and the West Bank as we speak, is not someone I want to have anything at all to do with, so please don't engage with me on this site in the future please…Get It.

                    • SPC …
                      9 November 2023 at 7:27 pm

                      Yeah I know what cancel culture is mate. It's selective and then it gets personal when it is challenged.

      • Gabby 11.1.2
        10 November 2023 at 12:10 pm

        I imagine the slaughter may stop when hamas no longer exists.

        • Tiger Mountain 11.1.2.1
          10 November 2023 at 4:16 pm

          I do not think so Gabby. The IDF will pull its head in as the international BDS takes stronger effect, and pressure on the US ruling class is too much for them. Southern hemisphere countries in the main do not like Israel one little bit.

        • Adrian Thornton 11.1.2.2
          10 November 2023 at 10:58 pm

          @Gabby
          "I imagine the slaughter may stop when hamas no longer exists"……..Israel and the USA has ensured that Hamas will become bigger and more extreme and dangerous than we can possibly imagine….how many Muslim men and woman around the world do you imagine have become prepared to Martyr themselves for this cause now?

          I would imagine the slaughter would stop a lot quicker if the Terrorist IDF would stop doing the slaughtering.

  12. ianmac 12
    9 November 2023 at 1:53 pm

    Hipkins was confirmed as the Party’s leader this Tuesday and said he would fight on to the 2023 election. However the party has shown signs of instability in the days that followed the vote.

    by Thomas Coughlan

    So writes a miserable rat who can't stop with the slurs and innuendoes. This in his column about a complaint about Ginny Anderson who yelled at a helper. Go back to sleep Coughlin!

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-investigates-bullying-complaint-against-ginny-andersen/FK43HD2U4BHKBNY4YYSUE32M54/

    • alwyn 12.1
      9 November 2023 at 2:29 pm

      That sounds a great deal more than "innuendo".

      When the Party General Secretary confirms that a complaint has been made and that it is being investigated his story certainly isn't what you are saying. It certainly isn't innuendo is it?

      Should he have simply ignored the story? Are we not to be allowed to know about the behaviour of the people who want the right to rule us?

      • Drowsy M. Kram 12.1.1
        9 November 2023 at 2:51 pm

        Are we not to be allowed to know about the behaviour of the people who want the right to rule us?

        Imho, the primary role of all MP's should be to serve (all) Kiwis, rather than "rule us".

        • alwyn 12.1.1.1
          9 November 2023 at 7:28 pm

          "Imho, the primary role of all MP's should be to serve (all) Kiwis, rather than "rule us"."

          On that point I am totally in agreement with you. I'm not sure that most of the MPs would agree with us though. Particularly the ones who make it into the leadership jobs in a party or the front benches in the House.

      • Mac1 12.1.2
        9 November 2023 at 3:08 pm

        The Thomas Coughlan article is about allegations of verbal abuse of two teenagers.

        At the end, there are these unrelated comments which are not enlarged upon or substantiated.

        "Hipkins was confirmed as the Party’s leader this Tuesday and said he would fight on to the 2023 election. However the party has shown signs of instability in the days that followed the vote."

        What connection is Coughlan making between Hipkins as leader for the 2023 election (does he mean 2026?) and signs of instability? The two sentences are in the same paragraph and therefore must be linked.

        Perhaps it is in the same well constructed and researched vein as his 2023 error…….

      • ianmac 12.1.3
        9 November 2023 at 3:22 pm

        How about the last sentence from Coughlin? Innuendo?

        However the party has shown signs of instability in the days that followed the vote.

        Wonder how often hints from unsubstantiated complaints should be aired? Slurs perhaps?

  13. Muttonbird 13
    9 November 2023 at 2:44 pm

    Yay. This year has been pretty brutal for the industry:

    Hollywood actors’ strike: Strike is over as Sag-Aftra union reaches tentative deal with studios

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/hollywood-actors-strike-strike-is-over-as-sag-aftra-union-reaches-tentative-deal-with-studios/3G3NVUIE4JFKBMGBJCPVVPOQBM/

  14. ianmac 14
    9 November 2023 at 3:28 pm

    Recently I read of an Israeli spokesman who originated the idea of "river to the sea." He did so in a speech about 10 years+ ago. So not new and could be interpreted as a call for Israel to take over the whole region.

    Would be useful to be quoted exactly esp in defence of Chloe. Anyone?

    • Belladonna 14.1
      9 November 2023 at 4:11 pm

      Given that the slogan has been around since at least the 1960s -this source doesn't seem at all likely

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea

      • ianmac 14.1.1
        9 November 2023 at 4:17 pm

        Thanks Belladonna. Tried that.

      • SPC 14.1.2
        9 November 2023 at 4:59 pm

        Political groups have employed the slogan since the 1960s to advocate for Palestinian liberation, with origins in the Palestinian National Council's initial charters, which demanded a Palestinian state geographically encompassing the historic boundaries of Mandatory Palestine, and a removal of a majority of its Jewish population

        From 1964 in accord with the original Arab position of a unitary state (many of the Jewish population left Arab nations in the late 1940's).

        Likud did their 1977 statement after that.

        Then the Hamas Charter in support of the 1964 position in 1988.

        The PNC position changed with the Oslo Accords and founding of the PA – when the PLO moved to justice of Arabs in Israel, right of return for refugees and a Palestine state on 67 borders.

        Hamas under pressure from Egypt in 2017 agreed with this as an interim step before a later move to a unitary state (thus without any recognition of an Israeli state).

    • Barfly 14.2
      9 November 2023 at 4:11 pm

      Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party, which describes itself as conservative and nationalist, has been a staunch promoter of the concept of “Eretz Israel”, or the Bible-given right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel.

      According to the Jewish Virtual Library, the party’s original party manifesto in 1977 stated that “between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty”. It also argued that the establishment of a Palestinian state “jeopardises the security of the Jewish population” and “endangers the existence of the state of Israel”.

      from

      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean

      • ianmac 14.2.1
        9 November 2023 at 4:22 pm

        Thanks Barfly. That is a bit nearer."“between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty”

        The Israeli flag shows two blue lines with the star in the middle, which reflects the idea of river to sea. Wish I had noted the speech.

        • Belladonna 14.2.1.1
          9 November 2023 at 4:29 pm

          You do realize that this is at least 10 years after it had been widely used as an anti-Zionist pro-Palestianian slogan.

          It rather looks as though Likud were re-purposing, and reversing, this already-existing phrase, for their own benefit, in their ’77 manifesto.

          There is zero evidence that it was 'originated' by an Israeli politician/spokesman. And certainly not 10+ years ago.

        • SPC 14.2.1.2
          9 November 2023 at 5:07 pm

          Hamas and Likud (and Religious Zionist Party) have the same policy.

          • Belladonna 14.2.1.2.1
            9 November 2023 at 5:11 pm

            I agree. However, that was not the question posed.

            There seems to be no doubt at all, that it was originated as a Palestinian slogan – and later adopted/reversed by Likud.

            • Barfly 14.2.1.2.1.1
              9 November 2023 at 5:47 pm

              I suggest you read this (I added the bold)

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel

              "Early Revisionist Zionist groups such as Betar and Irgun Zvai-Leumi regarded the territory of the Mandate for Palestine, including Transjordan, as Greater Israel.[1]

              In 1937, the Peel Commission recommended partition of Mandatory Palestine. In a letter to his son later that year, David Ben-Gurion stated that partition would be acceptable but as a first step. Ben-Gurion wrote that

              This is because this increase in possession is of consequence not only in itself, but because through it we increase our strength, and every increase in strength helps in the possession of the land as a whole. The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country.[2][3][4]

              The same sentiment was recorded by Ben-Gurion on other occasions, such as at a meeting of the Jewish Agency executive in June 1938,[5] as well as by Chaim Weizmann.[4][6] Ben Gurion said:

              We shall smash these frontiers which are being forced upon us, and not necessarily by war…."

              That was in the 1930s Israel's intention to 'acquire land' was well stated decades before it's multiple wars of conquest in 1967

              • Belladonna …
                9 November 2023 at 7:31 pm

                I suggest you read the original question, which was about the origin of the phrase "river to the sea"

                There is no question that extremists on both sides want sole occupation of Israel/Palestine – and have done since the 19th century.

                However, Israel has citizenship and democratic participation by Palestinian Arabs in the Knesset. Care to take up the challenge to name a Middle Eastern country which extends the same privilege to Jews?

                • Barfly …
                  9 November 2023 at 9:27 pm

                  I suggest you learn the geographical area covering Ben-Gurions statement – it is the area the river to the sea – If you consider that Zionist leadrers clearly stating they planned to 'ACQUIRE' it all in the 1930's Is of no importance then that says an awful about your motivations. If you want simply to be pissy about a phrase well it's interesting that in english it rhymes but it doesn't in Arabic – perhaps suggesting it was coind by english speaking individual.

              • SPC …
                9 November 2023 at 10:51 pm

                All parties are constrained by

                1. the decision of the UN to partition the area into two states

                2. from 1949 acquisition of territory war is no longer recognised by the UN (so the relative share is stuck at the 1949-1967 border).

                Thus only two states, via a peace settlement, can change the 1949-1967 international status quo.

                Israeli negotiators might want to retain some WB settlements (usually those near Jerusalem) within Israel – Palestinian negotiators might want a transport corridor (road and rail) between WB and Gaza etc.

  15. Ad 15
    9 November 2023 at 3:56 pm

    Bad luck again on small scale contained nuclear power plants.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nuscale-uamps-nuclear_n_654c317ce4b088d9a74d17db

  16. Ad 16
    9 November 2023 at 4:06 pm

    Props to the person in Forest & Bird who came up with Bird of the Year, and then Bird of the Century.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/07/john-oliver-backs-weird-puking-puteketeke-as-he-takes-new-zealands-bird-of-century-poll-global

    It's going full global.

    If you pop down to StarkWhite Queenstown you can get yourself a Fiona Pardington photo of a kiwi for $25k.

    Or just support Forest & Bird for $25 and keep alive the real thing.

  17. Ffloyd 17
    9 November 2023 at 4:15 pm

    I see Newshub is still operating from the Septic Tank. A teenage girl got yelled at supposedly. Why does that warrant an allegation of bullying? And headline in the news? Because it was a Labour MP. If it had been Nat member it wouldn’t rate a mention. Just the same as they wouldn’t have followed up on the Uffindull saga which was outright assault on a teenager. Potential police charge but daddy got him off. Now they’re going full on into Chris H doing an U turn on taxes. Which he can do if he so wishes. John Key was the king of Uturns.He set the precedent. ‘ No,we will never raise GST, golly gosh’… nek minnit GST 15%! 3% raise! Chris Hipkins should get a small department dedicated to dealing with these allegations the minute they are published. Hit them back immediately with their side the story. This smacks of what seems to be going to be a three year long onslaught by Newshub.

    • ianmac 17.1
      9 November 2023 at 4:24 pm

      Exactly Ffloyd.
      Note my post at 12. This time from Coughlin

    • Belladonna 17.2
      9 November 2023 at 4:47 pm

      So it's OK for a Labour politician to yell at teenage volunteers, and blame them because she lost her seat.

      Really?

      Andersen is the person with the position of power here. It's outright bullying.

      And before you get into the "whaddabout". Uffindell was absolutely wrong. I don't think there is any debate about this. He admits it, and has apologized. However, he was also a teenager at the time (16) – and certainly not in Parliament.

      The two cases are not at all comparable.

      The closest parallel is Meka Whaitiri (who was stood down as a Minister by Ardern, for bullying a staffer). You could also list Mallard, who made allegations in Parliament about a staffer committing 'rape' which were completely unfounded – an abuse of his power/authority as Speaker. But received no consequences from the Labour party or PM for his error of judgement.

      The most recent National MP accused of bullying was Tim van de Molen – accused of stand-over tactics and bullying towards Shanan Halbert.

      It was widely covered in the media – and Van de Molen was stood down from his portfolios by Luxon, and apologised both to the House and to Halbert.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/496507/national-mp-tim-van-de-molen-stood-down-from-all-portfolios

      • Peter 17.2.1
        9 November 2023 at 5:14 pm

        "So it's OK for a Labour politician to yell at teenage volunteers, and blame them because she lost her seat?"

        Probably not. I'm looking for somewhere I can find that's an accepted and supported attitude.

      • Sanctuary 17.2.2
        10 November 2023 at 7:50 am

        Ah, the media doing what it does best – policing the opposition once National is back in government. We are going to get three years of a TPU-fed forensic focus on Labour while Luxon (like Key) gets a free ride.

        • Belladonna 17.2.2.1
          10 November 2023 at 9:21 am

          Tim van de Molen…. well covered in the media.
          The media holds all politicians to account for less-than-acceptable behaviour.

          I'm expecting that they will be heavily scrutinizing the new Government.

        • Anne 17.2.2.2
          10 November 2023 at 10:05 am

          How true Sanctuary.

          Mark Mitchell the ex mercenary soldier is not liked by a lot of people. I have no doubt National members included. Do we hear a peep out of the media about that? Nah.

          Maggie Barry had a reputation for being a bully. The media treated her pretty kindly even after staff attested to the fact.

          Top Nat Party figures were in the spotlight from time to time but none of them subjected to the kind of 'forensic analysis' applied to Labour miscreants. Unless they commit offences of a serious nature, the spotlight does not shine anything like as fiercely on the Nats.

    • Obtrectator 17.3
      9 November 2023 at 10:24 pm

      12% to 15% is a 25% increase in the rate of GST.