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Open mike 09/01/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:01 am, January 9th, 2014 - 75 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step right up to the mike …

75 comments on “Open mike 09/01/2014”

  1. CC 1

    Could someone please get Josie Bloody Pagani expelled from the Labour Party so she isn’t seen by the MSM as the ‘go-to’ spokesperson for Labour. One can’t decide who is more to blame for yet another ‘authoritative’ statement and photo on the herald website this morning, the MSM or the publicity seeking Pagani. She should have been closed down long ago on matters pertaining to Labour Policy.

    • @cc..yeah..that one had me chewing the table-leg..

      (i had to laugh at tho’:

      ..pagani:..i won’t be standing for labour again..and i haven’t been asked..)

      ..but did you see perhaps the most egregious-example of a bought/owned corporate-media..

      ..in quite some time..?

      ..stuff has an ‘opinion-piece’…banging on about how wonderfully-served (pun-intentional) we all are by our banks/banking-system..(!)

      ..i instantly hunted for the name of the hack/access-media journalist that had penned this tripe..

      ..and guess what..?

      ..it was written by the head of the banking cartel..(!)

      ..it is a total advertorial..

      ..and stuff has it up as an ‘opinion-piece’..

      ..craven sell-outs..eh..?

      ..phillip ure..

    • Paul 1.2

      From the article..
      “Pagani – who was an outspoken critic of the proposals for a target – said she would not stand for Labour again in the 2014 election, and had not been asked to.”
      Some good news at least..

      As to blame, well Pagani is to blame. You expect the Herald to go for Labour. The Herald is a right wing rag and is always looking for any story to undermine any party left of Attila the Hun. Pagani is the tool who feeds them the answers to construct these stories. You should not expect members of the left to help the Herald out.

      Here’s the link, anyway. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11183231

      • karol 1.2.1

        Pagani should take a lesson from Cunliffe’s response, which serves to defuse the whole NZ Herald beat-up.

        The article fudges the difference between having a general aim for gender balance with having a quota for women candidates.

        Also, Pagani says the party should focus on things such as equal pay, but says nothing about the plight of women on low pay and benefits. And she says the focus should be on issues that affect most people’s lives (like gender pay equity) – similar to the whole idea of targeting the middle classes, and not the demonised beneficiaries and people struggling on low pay.

        • Paul 1.2.1.1

          Yes, but saying “it was a matter for the party” would not get her mentioned in the newspaper.
          Pagani speaks to get the limelight for herself, not to promote the Labour Party.
          She is correctly identified by Martin Bradbury as a ‘Fox Democrat.’

        • Tracey 1.2.1.2

          So what drum is she beating? Is this because she didn’t want Cunliffe, so seeks to undermine the Party? It makes a bit of a nonsense of some of her words written here by her from a hilltop about unity etc…

          Has she come down from the hilltop yet? And is this article the beginning of the Pagani Mosesesque commandments about how Labour should and should not be?

          Has she taken the time to address the questions of the people who read her “response” kindly made into a thread topic because apparently she can’t hit reply in the original thread like everyone else?

          She sounds, to me, like she is beating Shane Jone’s drum, still.

          “He said I was probably the only Labour Party feminist that voted for Shane Jones.

          How revealing is this statement – that those of us who supported an alternative contender in the leadership election are not welcome, that we don’t have a valid Labour voice, and that therefore, logically, we should be excluded.

          So that puts the lie to David Cunliffe’s public claims during and after the contest that there would not be reprisals.

          I reject the divisiveness and vilification that says you must be banished for voting the wrong way in a now-finished contest. It’s ugly. It’s self-defeating. Labour cannot win government by hunting heretics to demean and banish them.”

          • karol 1.2.1.2.1

            I don’t know what motivates, Josie P.

            I think the article also shows how Pagani is not critised her overall expressed values taken out of context, but the way she responds to an issue – the context and the way her comments are produced and/or used selectively in the MSM.

            • Tracey 1.2.1.2.1.1

              I know you don’t know, but wondered what you thought was motivating her… cos it seems to me she is assisting with a media-wide view that Labour “can’t even agree with each other”, which she must know is self defeating?

              I note the two folks quoted in the article were

              Shane Jones, and
              Josie Pagani (who stated she voted for Jones on this site)

              • karol

                Well, the choice of people to quote ultimately is the NZ Herald author and/or editors.

                It may be that Josie P has some established networks with NZ Herald authors.

                Going by Josie P’s angry post on TS – rebutting various claims – I think Josie P may not be aware of her own underlying response triggers. She may well think she is upholding traditoonal Labour values. She is someone who supported the Blairite approach to targeting the middle classes. So she continues to aim to appease the right wingers, without seeing it as a problem.

                • QoT

                  I don’t mean this as the cutting putdown it sounds like, but I honestly believe Josie Pagani has no firm idea of what leftwing/liberal principles are, what her own principles are, how her statements are used by the media to undermine Labour, or how to communicate ideas so that she doesn’t get used in that way.

                  Either that or she’s a rightwing fifth columnist mastermind whose chief interest is getting her own name into the paper. But I don’t think so.

                • newsense

                  The lack of left commentators is a problem though.

                  Trotter, Pagani, Bradbury…

                  If you look at the treatment of people such as Dame Anne by the Prime Minister when she did speak out, there is a real disincentive for left wingers with profile to put themselves into that role.

              • freedom

                “assisting with a media-wide view that Labour “can’t even agree with each other””

                Considering National’s dismal failure these past two terms, having the MSM run a divide and conquer strategy against the left is probably their only option for securing a third term.

              • Paul

                That’s a theme the corporate media likes to pursue and that Pagani is prepared to sacrifice so she gets media attention.

            • Paul 1.2.1.2.1.2

              Josie Pagani motivates Josie Pagani
              The Century of the Self by Adam Curtis

          • phillip ure 1.2.1.2.2

            um..!..tracey..looking from out here..

            ..it doesn’t seem labour are ‘hunting’ and ‘demeaning’ pagani..(for past party neo-lib-sins(?)..)

            ..’cos if they were..that would be setting a new benchmark in scapegoating..

            ..pagani wasn’t a minister in a govt that beat the neo-lib drum (she admittedly favours)..

            ..she wasn’t one of those serially booting the poorest in the guts..for those nine long years..

            ..(tho’ as a person..she did/does..)

            ..if labour are hunting for scapegoats for their role in getting us into the shit-hole we currently are/need to climb out of..

            ..there is a raft of candidates for that role..

            ..and a disturbingly large number of them are still staring out at us from the labour seats in parliament..

            ..saying:..’trust us..we care..!..’

            ..eh..?

            phillip ure..

            • Tracey 1.2.1.2.2.1

              I agree, that Labour doesn’t seem to be hunting and demeaning Pagani, but it could be construed that she is hunting and demeaning Labour?

              • @ tracey..

                ..aye..

                ..at this point in time..

                ..there could not be a worse ‘spokesperson’ for the labour party..

                ..and of course..her views are never rebutted by the real spokespeople in labour..

                ….are they..

                ..so they just get to stand/hang stinking in the air..

                ..w.t.f. is it with that..?..

                ..is englishs’ most effective-barb in parliament..true..?

                ..that there are no rebuttals from labour..

                ..because ‘as a political party..labour does not know where it stands’..

                ..there is more than a grain of truth in that..

                ..especially with so many of labours’ front-bench having that long history of being ..

                ..ideologically..in ‘the pagani-camp’..

                ..and we haven’t seen any volte-faces on their previous words/actions from any of these individuals..to date..

                ..have we..?

                ..so englishs’ claim still stands/hangs stinking up the air..

                ..at this point is time..most would grasp to (honestly) portray what labour stands for..

                ..go on..have a go..

                ..phillip ure..

          • just saying 1.2.1.2.3

            I reject the divisiveness and vilification that says you must be banished for voting the wrong way in a now-finished contest. It’s ugly. It’s self-defeating. Labour cannot win government by hunting heretics to demean and banish them.”

            Nothing to do with it as far as I can see. Just the wish that Labour representatives represent Labour values and beliefs and the reaction of the left when they repeatedly don’t.

      • just saying 1.2.2

        …she would not stand for Labour again in the 2014 election, and had not been asked to.”…

        I’m going to chalk that up as a victory for the flaxroots left. (Nobody rain on my parade with alternative scenarios okay? I need the political optimism).

    • Not a PS Staffer 1.3

      Labour’s media strategy should include “grooming” people who will become useful “commentators”. The media needs “commentators” and Pagani seems accessible and available.
      The Labour media teams over the past few years have been shite. Hopefully it will improve under the new regime.

      • Jim Nald 1.3.1

        And the commentators need to keep at least one thing in mind and that is what Pascal’s Bookie has noted:

        Josie Pagani replies

      • Ennui 1.3.2

        I cringe when I hear about Media Training….no doubt it is necessary to some degree but it reminds me of Grima Wormtongue in LOR….sometimes it is better to hear the reality from somebody who is just “you and me” rather than media trained drivel.

        I do agree Labour has done badly with the media, I doubt that their methodology is any different to National, so either the methodology is wrong for Labour or its down to the message and messengers. Yes it needs to be sorted.

        • Colonial Viper 1.3.2.1

          Really simple questions which Labour needs to answer and hasn’t enough

          1) What principles do you stand for
          2) What is your 10 year vision for NZ
          3) How are you going to deliver it

          Cunliffe is an excellent orator and hits the bullseye over and over again when he stays on this tack.

          • Olwyn 1.3.2.1.1

            The Labour Party principles are listed on their website:

            http://www.labour.org.nz/about

            Modifications I would like to see are “the right to work” extended to “the right to work for a living,” and the right to secure dwelling included in the human rights section.

            I would like to see adherence to these principles as a precondition for standing for Labour, and I would also like to see them set as the standard that policies, press statements and so on must meet. That is to say, policies etc. should at best strongly support them and at least not work against them.

            • Colonial Viper 1.3.2.1.1.1

              The Labour Party principles are listed on their website:

              Thank you Olwyn. I should have been more clear. I wasn’t looking for a Monsanto style mission statement e.g. “Monsanto is an agricultural company. We help farmers grow yield sustainably so they can be successful, produce healthier foods…” (who could disagree with any of that)

              I was looking for principles communicated in both policy and follow through in action, to the electorate. The statement for instance that the natural resources of NZ belong to all the people of NZ. That there has some big implications of deep sea drilling and other mining right there.

              • Olwyn

                Sorry. I didn’t mean to insult you by suggesting you may not know these principles, I just wanted to draw attention to exactly what they are. For one thing, they are put forward as “principles,” not as “branding,” and should be treated as such. I too want to see the flow from principle to policy to action from Labour. It offends me when politicians appear to treat the party principles merely as a form of branding.

                • Colonial Viper

                  no insult meant and certainly none taken, cheers Olwyn. Your principles vs ‘mere’ branding comparison is very apt.

        • phillip ure 1.3.2.2

          @ ennui..it isn’t a matter of good media-training..

          ..(that is just sticking lipstick on a pig..)

          ….the problem/need to do is what c.v details @ 1.3.2.1/above…

          ..’cos to most of us out here..

          ..labour are lost..

          ..stuck somewhere between two ideologies..

          ..a janus-faced party..

          ..phillip ure..

        • Tracey 1.3.2.3

          who has represented and appealled to those earning under $30k per annum in recent times, that “you and me”?

    • Will@Welly 1.4

      Labour is a “broad church”, one which I no longer frequent. But as a past member, I follow it’s antics. You may not like or agree with Pagani, but as long as we live in a democracy, people such as her have a right to speak out.
      I prefer to sit on the sidelines and criticize the current administration, and occasionally, the odd “lefty” when they show hues of blue, aka, David Shearer and his beneficiary bashing.
      As for Shane Jones, he represents the wealthy Maori, who have “farmed out” their quotas. So much for giving employment to Maori, or training todays youth, when foreign fishers will provide cheap labour to do their jobs. It also makes it easier to turn a blind eye to the over-fishing that is going on in our waters. A convenient accompaniment for many of National’s policies.

      • Tracey 1.4.1

        she does have a right to speak out as do we all. BUT when you know your speaking out will be listened to due to your privileged position in relation to the media you have responsibilities.

        I don’t go to their church anymore either. Will, when you and I speak out there are no ripples.

      • QoT 1.4.2

        Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

      • Will@Welly 1.4.3

        Having read the piece, it’s not a blog, but a bleat. Personally I would prefer to see the best person living in the electorate challenge for that seat, without the various outside representatives being helicoptered in. I’m still in favour of those standing in an electoral seat being barred from the list.
        Then, and only then do we look at the make up of the list.
        Right now Labour needs a serious clean out if it wants to re-claim the left.

        • Colonial Viper 1.4.3.1

          All good points.

          Of course to have good local candidates standing in local seats, you need to have strong electoral organisations to find, mentor and support the candidates. Sometimes that’s a problem, right there.

          And you need previous or non-performing candidates who are willing (or be made to be willing) to step aside and make way. Another problem, right there.

    • veutoviper 1.5

      I also despaired when I saw today’s Herald article featuring Josie Pagani yet again. While she, like everyone, has the right to express her opinion etc (and I certainly don’t agree that she should be expelled from the LP), her continual appearance as a supposed authority on the LP leaves me cold.

      Hopefully things will change with Simon Cunliffe’s appointment as David Cunliffe’s chief media person. According to this article he starts his new job next Monday, 13 January, so I hope that he hits the ground running.

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1311/S00314/simon-cunliffe-to-be-labour-media-director.htm

      PS – If Josie was available for the Herald article, presumably she is no longer on holiday. Would be ‘nice’ if she had the manners to reply to the comments on the post on here, where she was given the opportunity of right of reply at her request. Not holding my breath ….

      • veutoviper 1.5.1

        Further to the above, I decided to google Simon Cunliffe and found this link to various articles of his on the Otago Daily Times.

        I have only skimmed a couple so far, but like his writing style and thinking. .

        .

        • Tracey 1.5.1.1

          you can find his writing a while ago in the SST?

          • veutoviper 1.5.1.1.1

            Hi Tracey, I went back to the Google search I did on Simon Cunliffe but could not find amy SST compilation for him similar to the ODT one. Various other references etc, but no identifiable SST ones. I also went to the Stuff site, and searched for Simon Cunliffe and that brought up a whole swag, so suggest you do the same. (Could not work how to get a link to the search.)

            His bio is quite broad though, in terms of both journalism and wider interests. He wrote a play a year or so ago – The Truth Game – that was performed at Circa in Wellington in 2012, and in Dunedin. He also appears to have done theatre reviews for the Listener for a time; and also a Wine blog for the ODT. He was also David Cunliffe’s Press Secretary in the early 2000s when David C was a Minister, so he is familiar with government.

      • just saying 1.5.2

        I think that was always meant to be a ‘hit and run’. Certainly never expected any replying

        • Tracey 1.5.2.1

          I agree. Which is why she couldnt just hit reply like everyone else. She needed the limelight. Not about Labour or its values but her.

  2. floydd 2

    Heard David Cameron gave his hairdresser a gong in the new year handouts.Is this true? Or just a big joke?

    • @ ffloyd..it’s true..

      ..for ‘services to follicles’..as i understand it..

      ..and as an aside/apropos of not much..:..my celtic-peasant genes gave me a sturdy head of hair..

      ..(and in the past i have called out dunne..for a wave/pompadour-smackdown..)

      ..but the combination of my general distaste for dunne..and all about him..

      ..and the appearance of that character ‘barry’ on that (why is it so?) kinda compelling trash-reality-show where vultures cluster to paw over/buy others’ possessions..out of abandoned lockers..

      ..dual-mental-pictures of dunne/’barry’ running their hands thru their silvered/wavy-locks..(shudder..!..)

      ..has led me to decide to ditch (what has become in my eyes) the aging-roue/pimp-look..

      ..and i have gone back to the earlier/punkier days of the number two…

      ..and i hafta say..i am glad i am here..it’s a nice spot..

      ..(and as i said..that is really all ‘apropos of not much’..eh..?..)..i did warn you..!)

      phillip ure..

      • freedom 2.2.1

        I kind of see Dunne more as the Barry off Extras

        • phillip ure 2.2.1.1

          if i were to cast dunne in a movie..

          .(.going on the amount of damage he has done to this country/people..)

          ..i would have him play the lead in a bio-pic of/on petain..

          phillip ure..

  3. tricledrown 4

    Nick Clegg compared to a condom by Boris Johnston.
    Maybe that’s why dunne hair do looks the way it does.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      That’s the Boris Johnson who has today been revealed as wanting water cannon ready on London streets by this summer, right?

      And I don’t think it’s for keeping the rioters moist and cool.

  4. mac1 5

    The Labour party is at the vanguard of social change, or should be. Worrying about fossils with antediluvian attitudes would mean that no social change would have happened in as much as social change happens with political groups’ inputs.

    We’d still be back there with slavery, women being men’s chattels, racial, sexual, and gender discrimination and all the other snake skins that we have sloughed off over the centuries.

    Remember this- there is a high correlation between mysogyny and homophobia. If a person doesn’t like Labour because (usually) he doesn’t like our objective to have real equality for women, then he probably won’t like us for our stand against equal rights and opportunities for the gay, lesbian, bi-sexual and transgender communities.

    I read last night a biography of Dan Long, a former president of the PSA, who died in 1976. His life story was a wake-up call and an affirmation, too, of how far we have come in a century in terms of our maturing attitudes. In “White Collar Radical” the targets of the antediluvian fossils were ‘conchies’, communists, left wingers, liberals, women, Catholics, the Irish, workers, unionists, Labour members, intellectuals, among others. The perpetrators included all, or elements of, the Catholic Church, Fascists, the RSA, the Labour Party, the papers, local mayors, the Protestant Businessman’s Association, union leaders like FP Walsh, the SIS etc etc etc.

    I’m proud to be a member of a party which is there at the forefront of change away from the past and its bigotry, persecution and blinkered thinking. I would never claim to speak for the Labour Party as an ordinary member. I have been a candidate and had the right then to represent it.

    Claims by the Herald that ordinary members can speak for more than themselves need to be challenged. A member should not be media commentating on his or her own party. It is seen as non-objective for a variety of reasons and also risks interpretation and corruption by the media in serving its own ends.

  5. Morrissey 6

    “The Palestinians do not even have the right to have rights”
    Conversation with Richard Falk, 13 December 2013

    FRANK BARAT: John Dugard, your predecessor, was part of a team that wrote a report in 2009, in which he called what was happening in the West Bank, apartheid. What do you make about this concept, that is used more and more in various campaigns around the world?

    RICHARD FALK: I think it’s more descriptive than any other way of talking about the situation. Each context of subjugation of a people has its own originality. There is a kind of temptation on the part of critics of those who invoke the idea of apartheid to say that it’s not like South Africa, it’s not based on race, there are differences. But if you look more closely you see that in certain respects its worse than in South African apartheid. For instance South Africa never had settler-only roads. They did not ever create such a pervasive structure of discrimination that the one that exists in the West Bank. The dual legal structure is very expressive of an ethnically based form of domination that deprives the Palestinians of rights while it endows the unlawful Israeli settlers with the full panoply of rights under Israeli law. The Palestinians don’t even have the right to have rights on one side and the Israelis that are present in the Occupied Territories in a manner that the International Court of Justice almost by unanimous opinion said was unlawful having this full legal protection under the rule of law that prevails in Israel for Israelis.

    Read more….
    http://lemuradesoreilles.org/2014/01/08/the-palestinians-do-not-even-have-the-right-to-have-rights-conversation-with-richard-falk/

  6. freedom 7

    We are the towns
    – with apologies to Stephen Sondheim

    Why aren’t they rich?
    Why so much fear?
    We’re here so close to the ground,
    They rule from the air.
    We are the towns.

    More to it than this?
    As debt is accrued
    So many lies thrown around
    So easy to prove
    And what of the towns?
    So many sad towns.

    It seems someone stopped, opening doors
    Instead they stand there and shout, its their world not yours,
    Facing election again, the puppets all stare,
    Blurring the lines,
    No one is there.

    Play up the farce?
    But build up the fear.
    The MSM tell you all what you want.
    The message is clear.
    And what of the towns?
    Those wonderful towns.
    We’re fighting back here.

    Volumes of text
    Profoundly unclear
    We’re losing more than we’re gaining
    Is that really fair?
    And what of the towns?
    Those critical towns.
    It changes this year.

  7. Colonial Viper 8

    FBI officially acknowledges it’s primary role is not one of law enforcement, but of ensuring the security of the establishment

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-07/fbi-admits-its-primary-focus-not-law-enforcement

    The peace activists who burgled the FBI in 1971 revealing COINTELPRO spying on prominent Americans

    Reminds me of the BSG saying: all this has happened before…and will happen again…

    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/1/8/it_was_time_to_do_more

    • Herodotus 9.1

      Timely, last nights movie “the reader” posses the question re moral vs legal.
      http://entartetemusik.blogspot.co.nz/2009/02/moral-controversy-reader.html
      Bruno Ganz, as a law professor, asks his class (and the audience) to consider not whether some was right or wrong, but whether it was legal.
      Professor Rohl: Societies think they operate by something called morality, but they don’t. They operate by something called law.
      Unfortunately this is the case, and when pollies get into trouble they revert immediately that ” no laws were broken” as their defense.

      • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1

        Unfortunately this is the case, and when pollies get into trouble they revert immediately that ” no laws were broken” as their defense.

        I’ve noticed that especially from the right-wing politicians which is why I came up with:

        Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean that it’s right.

  8. infused 10

    Years only just begun and I’m already tired -_-

    Bring on the Utopia already.

  9. today i found what must be shortlisted for this years’ ‘most-arresting-headline-awards’..

    ..and it’s only the ninth of january..

    ..it comes in/from a story i linked to about the ex-wife of author cormac mccarthy…

    “..After the disagreement – she pulled a gun from her vagina – and held it to her boyfriend’s head..”

    whoar..!

    ..eh..?

    phillip ure..

    • Adele 11.1

      Phillip Ure

      “…she pulled a gun from her vagina – and held it to her boyfriend’s head.”

      Well, obviously you can’t shoot someone in the head with a baby.

    • @ adele..

      ..and there are so many unanswered questions..

      ..model and calibre not being least of them..

      ..it would also work as the opening (must-read-on!) line of a work of fiction..

      …what would also be cool..would be a competition..

      .seeing what people come up with..

      ..using that as the opening line..

      ..heh..!..

      phillip ure..

  10. Draco T Bastard 12

    If you were thinking of going for a swim at Mission Bay – don’t.

  11. nat-rad is reporting that mcready is going after len brown next..

    ..and will file papers next week..

    ..over the $40,000 in (undeclared) free hotel rooms brown got during his two-year-long chueng mid-life crisis..

    ..phillip ure..

    • bad12 13.1

      Yes, apparently Graham Mac has decided to have a go at Brown through the same charges Banks got caught out by,(knowingly filing a false return),

      Can’t see myself donating to this latest of crusades as i did for the pleasure of seeing Banks face the consequences of His actions,

      i can see a long drawn out legal process ahead for Graham Mac where He is likely to be given a lesson in the niceties written into the Law which usually gives to those with the coin able to hire the best of Barristers an ‘out’,

      While a conviction for Banks means a definite expulsion from the Parliament as an MP, no such outcome can be said to be the fate of Brown as the Mayor so even with a conviction, if such were to occur, the victory may be somewhat hollow producing bragging rights only…

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    3 weeks ago

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