Open mike 20/11/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, November 20th, 2014 - 106 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

keep calm and SolidarityOpen mike is your post.

The Standard is not a conspiracy – just a welcome outlet for the expression of views. Leaders that command respect will not be undermined by this.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

106 comments on “Open mike 20/11/2014 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Paul 1
    20 November 2014 at 6:56 am

    Brilliant article by George Monbiot ion the Guardian.

    ‘Another crash is coming. We all know it, now even David Cameron acknowledges it. The only questions are what the immediate catalyst will be, and when it begins.

    You can take your pick. The Financial Times reported yesterday that China now resembles the US in 2007. Domestic bank loans have risen 40% since 2008, while “the ability to repay that debt has deteriorated dramatically”. Property prices are falling and the companies that run China’s shadow banking system provide “virtually no disclosure” of their liabilities. Just two days ago the G20 leaders announced that growth in China “is robust and is becoming more sustainable”. You can judge the value of their assurances for yourself.

    Housing bubbles in several countries, including Britain, could pop any time. A report in September revealed that total world debt (public and private) is 212% of GDP. In 2008, when it helped cause the last crash, it stood at 174%. The Telegraph notes that this threatens to cause “renewed financial crisis … and eventual mass default”. Shadow banking has gone berserk, stocks appear to be wildly overvalued, the eurozone is bust again. Which will blow first?’

    For more read….
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/18/growth-destructive-economic-expansion-financial-crisis

    • dave brown 1.1
      20 November 2014 at 9:03 am

      Monbiot doesnt get to the root of the problem.

      (1) Global debt exceeding 200% of GDP is not the cause but an effect of the root problem which is insufficient profits. When profits from production fall, money capital spins off into speculation on existing commodities.
      Instead of allowing that excess capital to devalue, failing banks and firms are pumped up by QE. That attempt at a solution exacerbates debt levels because this new money will will not be invested in production until profitability returns.
      That means a real crash is needed where trillions must be wiped out to cut the costs of production to enable profits return.

      (2) Austerity in cutting social spending to reduce the transfer of taxes to the working class is one attempt to reduce the costs of production. But there is no sign that this has yet reached the point where productive investment rebounds. Despite ongoing negative real interest rates, banks and companies are buying their own shares rather than building new plant and machinery and hiring. That is why a major crash must happen, and soon.

      (3) Democracy is not a principle, but a ruse. That is why the attacks on workers living standards to reduce production costs is done without public consent. The capitalist state has one function which is to reproduce capitalist profitability at all costs. Democracy goes out the window.

      (4) Monbiot’s concern with growth as an ‘option’ that somehow is being ignored because big business does not share his concerns about nature and humanity, is naive. “Growth” under capitalism means GDP which includes any increase in ‘value’ that appears in the books including expenditure on wars or otherwise destroying the planet. This is not a policy option or long ago sensible capitalists would have thrown up their hands and forsworn rape and pillage. Growth means the accumulation of capital driven by giant monopolies bent on driving out their rivals, concern about the destructive effects of this does not register unless their directly hit the bottom line. Clean, green capitalism is a myth that humanity will take to its grave.

      Monbiot has no answers to the problems that bedevil him.

      http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/red-warning-lights/

      • les 1.1.1
        20 November 2014 at 9:48 am

        this from Global Research…’the G-20 must remove the crushing mass of derivatives which is now dragging down the world economy. Derivatives must be banned going forward, but this by itself will not be sufficient. The ultimate goal must be to wipe out and neutralize the existing mass of $1.5 quadrillion in notional values of toxic derivative instruments. Some governments may be able simply to decree that derivatives be shredded, deleted, and otherwise liquidated, and they should do so at once. Virtually all governments should be able to use their emergency economic powers to freeze derivatives and set them aside for at least five years or for the duration of the crisis, whichever lasts longer. Legal issues can be settled over the coming decades in the courts. Humanity is in agony, and we must act against derivatives now. Going forward, we must ban the paper pyramids of derivatives in the same way that the Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935 banned the pyramiding of holding companies.’…this is historic ‘advice’…seems to offer some solution to the ponzi scheme…any thoughts!

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2
        20 November 2014 at 10:44 am

        1. Ever since the GFC hit in 2k8 the governments of the world have done worked to protect the rich when they should have let them become the paupers that their actions demanded that they become. A lot of them should have ended up in jail and their assets returned to the state.
        2. They may be trying to cut the costs of production but there’s still the problem that there aren’t any more markets to sell to. A large part of the problem is that the major markets are massively over supplied.
        3. Democracy is a principle but representative democracy is the ruse which the authoritarians running the show hide behind. You’ll note that when participatory democracy is mentioned a lot of people come out to say how bad it will be including a lot of people who should be supporting it.
        4. He doesn’t appear to be calling for more growth but characterising it as the destruction wrought by capitalism.

        • TheContrarian 1.1.2.1
          20 November 2014 at 11:01 am

          You’ve never answered how participatory democracy would work in practice – given in a year over 250 bills are passed by representatives in parliament how are 4million odd people going to find the time to vote on them all. Or do they vote on them all?

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.1.1
            20 November 2014 at 11:24 am

            Yes I have. You just don’t listen.

            • TheContrarian 1.1.2.1.1.1
              20 November 2014 at 12:21 pm

              If you could link to it, it would certainly help because you always dodge it.

              How are the public to find the time to research and vote on every bill passed in parliament? About 250 per year every year.

              • Tracey …
                20 November 2014 at 2:31 pm

                Most dont research their vote once every three years so in that sense it would work well…

              • Draco T Bastard …
                20 November 2014 at 3:01 pm

                I’m pretty sure that you’re quite capable of finding the conversations that we’ve had where I’ve explained to you how participatory democracy could work all by your lonesome.

                Now fuck off troll.

                • TheContrarian …
                  20 November 2014 at 3:18 pm

                  I went back as far as March 2013 and couldn’t find anything.

                  You have never explained how it would work. Last time I asked you linked to a couple of irrelevant logical fallacies and said fuck off.

                  I’m not tr0lling you Draco, I genuinely want to know how you envisage it working because I can’t see it working on a national level. Yes on a community level but not when you have millions of voters voting on 250 odd bills a year

              • Murray Rawshark …
                20 November 2014 at 8:29 pm

                We could start by having a lot fewer laws passed. How many of those do anything useful?

        • Tracey 1.1.2.2
          20 November 2014 at 2:30 pm

          Yes, what would banks and financial ibstitutions have learned from the gfc? Nothing. They faced no lasting consequences

      • Ad 1.1.3
        20 November 2014 at 12:17 pm

        Great exchange there.

        Needs its own post. Monbiot is just annoying.

        Dave or DTB stretch your legs would you?

    • Saarbo 1.2
      20 November 2014 at 11:57 am

      @paul (or anyone else who can help)
      This may be a stupid question but Im struggling on it. In the Monbiot article on the 3rd to last paragraph he states that (paraphrase) “97% of our money supply is created by banks in the form of loans”

      If these loans are defaulted on, who loses?

      • Paul 1.2.1
        20 November 2014 at 6:03 pm

        No one really.
        It’s fake money.

        • McFlock 1.2.1.1
          20 November 2014 at 6:19 pm

          well, the bank takes ownership of the security. Sells the security.
          If the bank reckons that a loan is high risk of defaulting and that the security won’t cover the cost, it sells the loan to someone else along with millions of others. Rigging the system for its mates.

          And then when the entire system collapses, the taxpayer bails them out because they’re “too big to fail” and the bankers still get their bonuses.

          At least that seems to be the practise over the past ten years.

  2. phillip ure 2
    20 November 2014 at 7:08 am

    “..The Surprisingly Large Carbon Paw Print of Our Beloved – Polluting Pets..” (ed:..solution:..dogs/cats can thrive on a vegan diet..this..and other doggy-tales..)

    (excerpt..)

    ..and a recent added excitement to small dogs’ life is that sometimes i stick him inside my jacket..with just his head sticking out..

    ..and take him for a ride on the scooter..

    ..he loves it..his ears lift to horizontal..

    ..and he pushes out into the wind like he is auditioning for that bow-scene from titanic..

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/the-surprisingly-large-carbon-paw-print-of-our-beloved-polluting-pets-ed-solution-dogscats-can-thrive-on-a-vegan-diet-this-and-other-doggy-tales/

    • Paul 2.1
      20 November 2014 at 7:18 am

      Great to have your entries again.

    • The Al1en 2.2
      20 November 2014 at 7:34 am

      Despite the obvious environmental irony with your fun fossil fuel joyrides, and another definitely not falling for the vegan guilt trip is Jasper-the-cat, with him eating a poor little bird literally two minutes after being fed his meat flavoured biscuits yesterday, welcome back pu.

      • BM 2.2.1
        20 November 2014 at 8:14 am

        Do you feed you cat raw meat?

        • The Al1en 2.2.1.1
          20 November 2014 at 8:51 am

          No, just biscuits, and always the cheapest in the shop.
          He’s a cat. He gets all the raw meat he can catch. Just ask Gareth Morgan about it.

          • Ron 2.2.1.1.1
            20 November 2014 at 9:44 am

            No self respecting cat would dream of eating Gareth Morgan.

            He gets all the raw meat he can catch. Just ask Gareth Morgan about it.

            • weka 2.2.1.1.1.1
              20 November 2014 at 9:56 am

              lolz @ Ron. Truth. They might hand him over to the stoats though.

            • The Al1en 2.2.1.1.1.2
              20 November 2014 at 10:00 am

              “No self respecting cat would dream of eating Gareth Morgan.”

              Probably true, but an added bonus would be no hairball to cough up lol

              • Chooky …
                20 November 2014 at 11:20 am

                …my cats would like to eat Gareth Morgan….but they need to grow a bit and he needs to shrink a bit for them to get their jaws around him….every morning I talk to them about NOT eating birdies…”it is VERY NAUGHTY to eat birdies !…. especially native birdies!….just leave the birdies alone!”…. i tell them to stick to rabbits and mice …..and i tell them about Gareth Morgan and his anti cat campaign trapping little pussycats on the edges of forests …they listen intently and politely and then they say they wouldnt mind eating Gareth Morgan

                …and they say it is crap that cats go up into the mountains and kill keas ….there is a lot of Gareth Morgan ….bullshit …going around…..

                • halfcrown …
                  20 November 2014 at 12:51 pm

                  But would they eat the whole of Gareth Morgan?
                  Nah, they will spit that bit out.

                  • Chooky …
                    20 November 2014 at 1:01 pm

                    they dont usually eat the whole… no…they like to leave a bit left as a trophy or contemplation piece…they would either eat his body and leave his head or an ear on the door mat ….or they would chew his head off and leave some guts, maybe a liver and kidneys , and a foot …depending on their mood…they could also drag him into the bushes and leave a bit of clothing scattered about for artistic effect

      • Murray Rawshark 2.2.2
        20 November 2014 at 8:31 pm

        It might be a child’s push scooter.

    • Skinny 2.3
      20 November 2014 at 7:41 am

      Phil good to see your back!
      Ironic that I have salad sandwiches for my lunch.

      Footnote: Had bacon & eggs for breakfast, very enjoyable.

  3. swordfish 3
    20 November 2014 at 7:26 am

    Over the last day and a half, a few prominent (and it seems, still slightly bitter) Robertson supporters have been pushing the Tory meme that Labour suffered way-above-average Party-Vote losses in Little’s New Plymouth over the last few Elections.

    Here’s a comparative analysis….

    Labour Party-Vote New Zealand 2008-14
    2008…34.0%………..2014…25.1%………minus 8.9

    Labour Party-Vote New Plymouth (Little) 2008-14
    2008…31.4%………..2014…21.2%………minus 10.2

    Labour Party-Vote Wellington Central (Robertson) 2008-14
    2008…34.6%………..2014…23.8%………minus 10.8

    Labour’s Party-Vote fell over this period by 4938 votes in Robertson’s Wellington Central, compared to a decline of just 2954 votes in Little’s New Plymouth.

    (Note: I’ve posted something similar on Hard News in reply to Russell Brown)

    • Jenny Kirk 3.1
      20 November 2014 at 8:08 am

      thanks for that, swordfish – useful info to have

    • fisiani 3.2
      20 November 2014 at 8:52 am

      I have been pointing out for months that Robertson effectively ran an electorate campaign but merely paid enough lip service to Party Vote Labour for plausible deniability. Robertson badly wanted Cunliffe to lose so that he would be forced to resign and remember he was the first to contest for the leadership. He must be majorly bummed at missing out by just 1%. Imagine winning a clear majority of your colleagues in caucus and a clear majority of the membership but being denied the top job because of a few trade union bosses block voting.
      Do not believe Robertson when he says he will not run again. He means he will not run against Little in the next 12 months. If Little was to resign however then I’m sure that Robertson would be first in line for the job. ( He polished up the handles so carefully that now he is the leader of the King’s naveeee.)
      Robertson is not stupid, he will simply let Little flounder and flop till he realises that he has no support. Robertson will do everything he can to foster a groundswell that Little should resign. I fully expect Robertson to be the leader of the party by election 2017.

    • Ron 3.3
      20 November 2014 at 9:47 am

      OMG Do you mean that Robertson lost more percentwise than Little. How could he have stood for Leader with that kind of loss.

    • Ed 3.4
      20 November 2014 at 10:23 am

      The problem with simplistic analyses like that is that they are, well, simplistic – and tending more towards FPP thinking rather than MMP.
      For example in Wellington Central, the combined party vote for Labour + Greens declined from 55% to 53% , whereas the National vote rose from 35% to 37.5% – assisted no doubt by some people who voted for Robertson also voting for National!, but the “failure” to capture effective party votes is not restricted to that electorate

      In New Plymouth, the Labour+Green party vote declined from 37.6% to 29%, while the party vote for National increased from 50% to 55.6%. There a new Labour candidate, and the Green Party running a candidate, may have had an effect – Harry Duynhoven nearly took the seat back in 2008.

      I have seen National people talking about New Plymouth results in trying to denigrate Andrew Little, but not anyone from Labour, and I havent seen any bitterness from Robertson – what was the purpose of your post, Swordfish?

      • swordfish 3.4.1
        20 November 2014 at 11:19 am

        Da, Comrade, Da.

        First of all, I explicitly referred to “a few prominent…..Robertson supporters” – as opposed to Robertson himself. Try reading my first sentence again. So, we’re talking Russell Brown, Andrew Geddis and a number of PAS regulars.

        Second, my stats were a response to some rather dubious figures set-out by Brown (who borrowed from Phil Quin). He was trying to suggest that Labour suffered an appallingly large fall in the Party-Vote in New Plymouth (with a view to casting Little as some sort of hapless bozo). Given that Brown is a pronounced Robertson supporter, I felt obliged to point out that Labour lost far more support in Wellington Central over the last few Elections.

        Third, I’ve fully discussed the contrasting destination of Labour votes (NP compared to WC) over at Brown’s Hard News. Suffice to say here, though, that from Labour’s viewpoint, a fall is a fall regardless of destination.

        Fourth, you’d be wrong to suggest “Harry Duynhoven nearly took the seat back in 2008”. He continued to hold it in 2005 and then finally lost it (albeit marginally) in 08. Suffered about a 6 point fall n Candidate Vote support. So, nothing to “take back”.

        • swordfish 3.4.1.1
          20 November 2014 at 11:52 am

          Fifth, I’m not trying to forment trouble, if that’s what you’re implying.

          Just want to arm regulars here with a few crucial details in case they need them.

          But, then, I suspect Robertson’s more distraught supporters will manage to get it all out of their system over the next couple of weeks and ultimately move on.

    • Tracey 3.5
      20 November 2014 at 2:34 pm

      Thanks for the facts. Keep up thegood fight.

  4. les 4
    20 November 2014 at 7:31 am

    ‘Exclusive New computer system set to cost up to $100 million more than budget and be a year late’…Councils new Super City computer system cost blow out.All those highly paid employees at the Council couldn’t run a bath.So now Police,Racing,Education and the Council have commissioned new IT programmes that do not live up to the hype.What a gravy train…money is no object!

    • left for deadshark 4.1
      20 November 2014 at 8:05 am

      Yea, what is it with NZ and computer systems, only just started into my coffee,but we have, police,nova/not pay, an many others.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1
        20 November 2014 at 11:44 am

        My guess is that it’s because we don’t have a dedicated computing department for all of government allowing for ongoing systematic development. Instead we get it a bit at a time from the cheapest private suppliers resulting in complete chaos and failure.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.2
      20 November 2014 at 11:42 am

      Chances are you’re blaming the wrong people. The cause of the blowout was most likely the incompetence of the people hired to do the analysis and pricing.

      • les 4.2.1
        20 November 2014 at 12:03 pm

        Maybe but if you commission incompetent people to do a task…surely you are responsible!

        • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1
          20 November 2014 at 12:41 pm

          The whole point of specialisation and competition is that the best rises to the top and the incompetent go bust. The problem is that that just doesn’t happen especially in government procurement so the private firms could under quote to get the job and then know that they had a damn near blank cheque book to draw upon.

          Basically, once $100m or so is spent on new software (or anything really) and it almost works then it’s better to spend another few million fixing it than to spend another $100m getting another firm to write new software.

          As I said to left for deadshark, the real solution to government procurement blowouts is for the government to do it themselves and the government does enough scale to warrant doing that. The privateers will whinge though as they then won’t have access to the governments unlimited coffers.

  5. AsleepWhileWalking 5
    20 November 2014 at 7:36 am

    Petrol stolen, workers docked ***grrrrrr***

    Time to boycott Masterton Night ‘n Day

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/63361758/Workers-charged-for-petrol-drive-offs

    • vto 5.1
      20 November 2014 at 8:00 am

      That sort of bullying and illegal behaviour makes the blood boil.

      The owner of that store needs the full force of the law to come down on him…

      … and, if he wishes his employees to pay all the losses of the business then so too must they be paid all the profits of the business.

      The guy is a total c@%t

    • millsy 5.2
      20 November 2014 at 9:30 am

      This sets a worrying precedent. It effectively means that retail shop assistants and the like are liable for shoplifted goods.

      Not good.

    • Ron 5.3
      20 November 2014 at 9:49 am

      Don’t we need to know what system they were running. Most of the sites like that require the customer to pay first. If that was the expected system and for some reason the staff person opened the pump without payment and then the customer shot through then it is the staff fault.
      Whether he should pay or not is another matter who was at fault here?

    • Once was Pete 5.4
      20 November 2014 at 11:21 am

      Can’t disagree with you on this. They would be insured for these losses any way, unless the staff were negligent in some way?

    • Draco T Bastard 5.5
      20 November 2014 at 11:47 am

      That is just the owner stealing from the employees and he needs to be treated as the thief he is and thrown in jail.

  6. phillip ure 6
    20 November 2014 at 7:50 am

    “..Marijuana Drastically Shrinks Aggressive Form Of Brain Cancer – New Study Finds..”

    ..Over the past few years research has revealed that marijuana can both destroy certain cancer cells – and reduce the growth of others.

    Now a new study in mice has found that when combined with radiation treatment –

    – cannabis can effectively shrink one of the most aggressive types of brain tumors..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/18/marijuana-brain-cancer_n_6181060.html

    • TheContrarian 6.1
      20 November 2014 at 8:50 am

      Big difference between smoking marijuana and using cannabinoids, Phil.

      • phillip ure 6.1.1
        20 November 2014 at 9:11 am

        i am unsure of the point you are attempting to make..

        ..cd u clarify..

        ..and shd u doubt what i am saying..here is plenty more evidence..

        http://whoar.co.nz/?s=cannabis+oil+

        • TheContrarian 6.1.1.1
          20 November 2014 at 9:39 am

          I just took what I thought was a reasonable assumption that you would draw the connection that using medical cannabinoids to treat cancer = smoking marijuana is cure for cancer to make it clear that that isn’t the case.

          (BTW – I’ll never visit whoar – your grammar and verbiage here is sufficiently annoying enough without having to head to your blog)

          • phillip ure 6.1.1.1.1
            20 November 2014 at 9:42 am

            the only ‘assumption’ i am making is that these cases/this research are interesting..

            ..with further investigation clearly needed..

            ..and screaming at the lack of logic in criminalising/denying access to a clear palliative..if not a possible cure..

            ..not to mention helping patients undergoing chemo..etc..etc..

            ..are you denying/questioning all that evidence..?

            “..(BTW – I’ll never visit whoar ..”

            ..go and stand over there..with chooky..

            ..that’s the ‘i’ll never visit whoar’ diehard-corner….

            • TheContrarian 6.1.1.1.1.1
              20 November 2014 at 9:44 am

              If you say so

            • phillip ure 6.1.1.1.1.2
              20 November 2014 at 9:56 am

              and..um..!..when the rubber hits the road..

              ..you aren’t really much of a ‘contrarian’..are you..?

              ..you slave to current grammar ‘rules’..you..

              ..was that the nicest word you cd find to describe yr reactionary-tendencies..?

              ..’i’m not a reactionary…i’m a ‘contrarian’..

              • TheContrarian …
                20 November 2014 at 10:10 am

                Ha, classic Ure

                • phillip ure …
                  20 November 2014 at 4:43 pm

                  oh..f.f.s..!

                  peter elliot and jim mora pot-bashing..

                  ..mora claiming..’the scientific evidence is going the other way’..to legalisation..

                  ..and elliott tutt-tutts hat ‘it wd be terrible if young peope had easier access to it’..

                  ..f.f.s..!..reality-check..!..you wanna know where the local tinny-house is..?..ask a teenager on a bike..they all know..

                  ..wd be nice if both cd produce some evidence for these orifice-plucks..

                  ..mora is one of the most reactionary on pot..

  7. Manuka AOR 7
    20 November 2014 at 8:08 am

    This won’t go away.

    “The situation is grossly unfair. There are so many examples of the utter contempt of the mine owners in allowing such an unsafe workplace to operate, and their culpability in what happened to these men is without question. Even half a generation ago, this country would have stopped still until those guys were brought out. It would have been unacceptable for the mine owners to refuse to do it, and it would have been unacceptable for John Key to let them. But people have been allowed to put the recovery cost above doing what’s right, which is to bring these people home so their families could bury them.” Dave Dobbyn 16/11/14 http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/63217168/dave-dobbyn-loyal-to-pike-families

    “You’re left feeling that there’s only really justice if you can afford to pay for it.”

    • left for deadshark 7.1
      20 November 2014 at 8:39 am

      This Government has bought great shame too our nation,I watched (Dreams Lie Deeper) last night. I had a good cry witnessing all that love in the Wellington concert hall.We need to tip the (captains of industry )out of there comfortable club chairs,an down to the high court.Oil and Gas,that is.

    • Murray Rawshark 7.2
      20 November 2014 at 8:42 pm

      Personally, if one of my loved ones died in a mine, I’d probably be happy for them to stay there. However, they are not my immediate loved ones down that mine, Key promised to get them out, and the families want the bodies back. Therefore it should be done. End of story.

  8. Skinny 8
    20 November 2014 at 8:13 am

    Listening to RNZ, Morning Report and a news item about complaints that Community Groups fear funding cuts if they speak out against the Government.

    With an allegation by one group saying
     “They have been threatened by a Cabinet Minister”.   

    Who is this bullying punk Minister? They need to be exposed and stood down by Key until a full investigation is completed.
     Our society relied heavily on these good people and it is totally unacceptable these groups are being muzzled.
    The whole issue of the Government burdening these community groups with funding issues needs urgent addressing, not stand over tactics by some thug MP.

    • Tracey 8.1
      20 November 2014 at 2:39 pm

      Community Law are one such group making the claim…

      Cuts to legal aid and Community Law… Just where do people go to enforce their rights now?

    • greywarshark 8.2
      20 November 2014 at 8:58 pm

      Community groups – I have written about them being muzzled about just about any dissenting thought before. It has been going on for a while since the laws relating to charities got changed. And is a well known tactic that can make getting funding from the government a toxic thing, a two-edged sword.

  9. left for deadshark 9
    20 November 2014 at 8:47 am

    thanks for this link MS
    http://pundit.co.nz/content/how-andrew-little-needs-to-begin

    good comments here,by Lynn an then Jenny.

    • Clemgeopin 9.1
      20 November 2014 at 12:45 pm

      Robust debate and discussion of issues is essential for a party to decide on the best possible course of actions and policies to pursue. However, after a majority decision has been taken, the caucus and the members should support that decision irrespective of what one’s own individual prior position was. That is what ‘unity’ and ‘loyalty’ mean.
      Some of the commentators who are described as left or do masquerade as ‘left wing’ should understand this point clearly.

      • left for deadshark 9.1.1
        21 November 2014 at 9:22 am

        That is what ‘unity’ and ‘loyalty’ mean.

        Good morning , Clemgeopin.
        What is your point,do you not like this link.

  10. weka 10
    20 November 2014 at 10:02 am

    Key rewriting history according to his own view,

    “When we talk about the treaty and sovereignty and all those matters, you take a step back and say well what was really happening. In my view New Zealand was one of the very few countries in the world that were settled peacefully. Maori probably acknowledge that settlers had a place to play and bought with them a lot of skills and a lot of capital” he says.

    http://www.waateanews.com/Waatea+News.html?story_id=ODM3Nw%3D%3D&v=528

    Not even going to comment on the uselessness of his response to the recent Waitangi Tribunal report.

    • marty mars 10.1
      20 November 2014 at 11:16 am

      “…and a lot of capital”

      key and his priorities laid bare.

      “settled peacefully”

      what a joke – key is whitewashing years of struggle, hardship and destruction – the line is up there with him unremembering his position about the tour, only a lot, lot, lot worse.

    • RedBaronCV 10.2
      20 November 2014 at 10:16 pm

      Really, they asked “and how much capital did you bring”?? Just how stoopid is this man??
      I could make some tasteless comments about snack bars but if I have one beef about my ancestors it seems that they did not chase off or remove the right people. Look at what just crawled out from under the rock.

  11. Poission 11
    20 November 2014 at 12:10 pm

    Bankers are more likely to be dishonest (to make economic gains for themselves) then other industries.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature13977.html

    The scientists recruited approximately 200 bank employees, 128 from a large international bank and 80 from other banks. Each person was then randomly assigned to one of two experimental conditions. In the experimental group, the participants were reminded of their occupational role and the associated behavioral norms with appropriate questions. In contrast, the subjects in the control group were reminded of their non-occupational role in their leisure time and the associated norms. Subsequently, all participants completed a task that would allow them to increase their income by up to two hundred US dollars if they behaved dishonestly. The result was that bank employees in the experimental group, where their occupational role in the banking sector was made salient, behaved significantly more dishonestly.

    A very similar study was then conducted with employees from various other industries. In this case as well, either the employees’ occupational roles or those associated with leisure time were activated. Unlike the bankers, however, the employees in these other industries were not more dishonest when reminded of their occupational role. “Our results suggest that the social norms in the banking sector tend to be more lenient towards dshonest behavior and thus contribute to the reputational loss in the industry,”

    • Chooky 11.1
      20 November 2014 at 12:35 pm

      More on the BIG BAMBOOZLE…and Banksters

      http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/204779-episode-max-keiser-679/

      Every week Max Keiser looks at all the scandal behind the financial news headlines.

      In this episode of the Keiser Report, Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert discuss the shouts of ‘Ya Me Cansé’ (‘I’ve had enough’) as people are sick of a corrupt elite above the law. They also look at the headlines surrounding students in India who believe in the right to cheat, and at the innocent people who plead guilty to crimes they didn’t commit in America. In the second half, Max interviews Alayne Fleischmann, the JP Morgan whistleblower, profiled in the latest issue of Rolling Stone magazine. They talk about fraud in the mortgage backed securities business, the statute of limitations on wire fraud and what exactly it is that Jamie Dimon wants.

  12. Chooky 12
    20 November 2014 at 12:24 pm

    This is politics at its most basic level…the politics of FOOD…this is what Mana/Int was concerned about

    Kathryn Ryan conducts an excellent interview with an anthropologist on the politics of food:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/20157998/what-food-wastage-tells-us-with-dr-david-boarder-giles

  13. SPC 13
    20 November 2014 at 1:31 pm

    Be an effective presence for Labour – like Jones was on supermarket practices … the investigation finds no wrongdoing.

    Foam on the waves signifying nothing of lasting substance …. like a whale that spouts and then sleeps.

  15. vto 15
    20 November 2014 at 2:32 pm

    This issue of tourist ineptitude behind the wheel causing death really is a very big deal, especially for those of us who spend a lot of time on SI roads … http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/63374238/Police-tried-to-find-tourist-driver-before-she-killed-2-people

    The current blah blah solution to it will not work. Such solutions include driver tests, rental firm assessments of driving ability etc, but these will not work. It will not be possible to rely on human ability in this matter.

    The only solution can be a loud beeper which goes nuts when the car is driving on the wrong side of the road. I understand Mercedes have such a function (dunno though, they too expensive for us poor peeps..). Such a function must be installed on every rental car. This will save lives, without doubt. Rental firms will cry cost, but too bad, and anyway, if they all have to do it then the paying field is still level.

    I drive in fear of coming around the corner to face on-coming tourists, and have had it happen to me on three occasions.

    They are deadly.

    • RedLogix 15.1
      20 November 2014 at 2:41 pm

      Back in the 80’s I was working in Aussie for about six months. Found myself a really sweet spot to stay – a small homelike place.

      One evening I had dinner with an attractive Canadian woman tourist – and I have to say it was a very pleasant evening. However the reason it turned out memorable was one of the worst moments of my life.

      Next morning she drove off a minute or two before I did. It was down a long driveway and then onto a relatively empty highway. I got about 1km down the road and over a crest – and found she had driven right under a logging truck at speed.

      All I could do was help the poor bloody truck driver who was curled up in a ball on the side of the road vomiting. Utterly dreadful – and I can feel the emotional trauma as I write this nearly 30 years later.

      Your technical solution is a very good one vto. Perfectly doable and is good commercial opportunity for someone to follow up.

      • Tracey 15.1.1
        20 November 2014 at 2:43 pm

        Bloody hell…

        VTO

        Beeper is a great idea.

      • vto 15.1.2
        20 November 2014 at 2:51 pm

        That’s terrible, but is exactly what happens. Empty roads are the worst of course.

        And to be frank, I did it myself in the US some too many moons ago. Myself and two attractive English tourists had just visited a remote spot, got back in the car and off I drove down the road for about a km before realising I was driving on the wrong side. My friends also hadn’t noticed.

        terrifying

  16. srylands 16
    20 November 2014 at 3:18 pm

    A very interesting report from NZIER

    http://nzier.org.nz/publication/disruption-on-the-road-ahead-how-auto-technology-will-change-much-more-than-just-our-commute-to-work-nzier-public-discussion-paper-20145

    It points to less reliance on public transport, more reliance on private cars and ride sharing, and longer commuting times:

    “Lower congestion and an easier commute make suburbia more appealing. Expect more and more people to live further away from the city centre.”

    This analysis suggests projects such as the Auckland City Rail link could quickly become redundant.

  17. Draco T Bastard 17
    20 November 2014 at 3:24 pm

    The RBNZ has released new notes. I know that there’s not a lot you can do with notes but I feel that they could have made them significantly different from Euro notes. In fact, these new ones look like copies.

  18. Clemgeopin 18
    20 November 2014 at 4:18 pm

    Nice gesture from a kind ‘have’ to a needy ‘have not’.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/63382059/Overwhelmed-by-stangers-kindness

  19. phillip ure 19
    20 November 2014 at 4:29 pm

    trotter on the panel..

    ..could the man be more full of shite..?

    ..could the man be more of a pompous/self-regarding fucken blowhard..?

    (..the questions are rhetorical..)

    • Skinny 19.1
      20 November 2014 at 4:37 pm

      I couldn’t even be bothered ringing up and giving Trotter & Hide a serve over their silly “Union Bosses” decided the LP Leader. Funny that, not a union boss but I got a vote my choice no orders who to vote for.

      • Tracey 19.1.1
        20 November 2014 at 5:08 pm

        I hope josie pagani is writing about trotter right now

      • Clemgeopin 19.1.2
        20 November 2014 at 6:59 pm

        80% of the leadership vote comes from the caucus and the membership. (4/5). Only 20% (1/5) comes from the union affiliates and all union affiliates did not vote for Little anyway!

        I personally prefer the ratio of Caucus, Members and affiliates to be 30, 40 and 30 (or 25, 50, 25). I feel that the caucus should have some say, but not too much.

  20. chris73 20
    20 November 2014 at 5:07 pm

    Well I’m in two minds, first off Littles owned by the unions yet the decision is causing Wrongly Wrongson (Bomber Bradbury) to have conniptions so on basis that Bomber thinks its a bad idea then selecting Little must be a good idea

    I’d suggest Little starts taking heads as soon as possible though

    • Tracey 20.1
      20 November 2014 at 6:32 pm

      Affiliated unions voted more for he than robertson. The majority of unions in NZ are not affiliated to the lp by my understanding.

      If only we knew the machinations behind other party leadership selections we might have a better context or perspective.

      I dont know Little and didnt vote Labour… I will be watching with deep interest the next few months

  21. aerobubble 21
    20 November 2014 at 5:27 pm

    no.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.