Open mike 5/09/2013

126 comments on “Open mike 5/09/2013 ”

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1. lprent 1

   5 September 2013 at 8:12 am

   Drat. The cron failed to fire. Have to look at that tonight
2. just saying 2

   5 September 2013 at 8:13 am

   Hi mods,
   The date is wrong (unless it’s groundhog day).
   cheers.

   edit: didn’t see your comment when I posted this LPrent.
   • lprent 2.1

     5 September 2013 at 8:27 am

     Hurried manual edit… 🙂

     There is so much in the logs that I can’t see why it failed…
3. phillip ure 3

   5 September 2013 at 8:17 am

   (i found this on the morning-trawl..)

   http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/04/bastoy-norwegian-prison-works

   “..the departing governor of a prison with a reoffending rate of just 16% –

   – shares the secrets of his remarkable success..”

   now..wouldn’t it be a worthy idea for a new/progressive govt in nz to get this guy to come here and do this for us..?

   ..i mean..a re-offending-rate of 16%..?

   ..from ‘the worst’ prisoners in sweden..?

   ..what’s to argue against there..?

   ..phillip ure..
   • bad12 3.1

     5 September 2013 at 9:07 am

     30 odd years ago there was a Psychologist attached to the Ministry of Justice who advocated much the same thing for New Zealand prisons,

     i cannot for the life of me remember His name but He advocated setting up closed villages where prisoners could serve their time,

     It’s a simple proposition at it’s core, how can society expect, especially for those who serve long sentences, to lock offenders in what is in essence a cage which removes them so far from what is ‘normal’ most people could never begin to imagine it’s effect for years and then expect,(for some strange reason),normal non-offending individuals to be the result,

     As Justice Roper so succinctly put it,imprisoning an individual for a short six month period might have some beneficial effect, the longer after that that the individual is held the less the beneficial effect is seen…
     • Greywarbler 3.1.1

       5 September 2013 at 1:17 pm

       bad12
       Te Ara on line encyclopaedia has this on Dr Fraser McDonald who you might be referring to
       http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/mental-health-services/page-5
       This is about his thoughts on deinstitutionalisation. He was a great person. And he would have had thoughts on prisoners too.

       Kim Workman has been working with others for more rational, reasonable and humane ways of dealing with law-breakers too. It would end up being cheaper in the long run but dearer in the short run. It’s easier for the superior, fault-finder with pretensions about their own holiness and also wanting to gain some notoriety, to condemn those judged bad to punishment and eternal scorn.
   • Murray Olsen 3.2

     5 September 2013 at 3:06 pm

     The arguments against humane prisons and a much lower rate of imprisonment are that Serco would not profit from it and the McVicar crowd would lose their reason to exist. They are very bad arguments, but they appeal to Tories, including Phil Goff.
   • Clement Pinto 3.3

     5 September 2013 at 9:16 pm

     May be, just may be, he uses the Sharia law : castration, stoning, cutting off body parts etc? Nah, can’t be!
4. karol 4

   5 September 2013 at 8:17 am

   Dodgy NZ Editorial on the Labour Leader contenders – but in keeping with the paper’s track record. Pretty much rubbishes all 3, with a special hit at promises to raise the top tax rate. On the living wage:

   The living wage calculation is a useful guide to the labour market. As an authoritative measure of the minimum required for a reasonable living standard, it ought to be noted by small employers who take their cue from the statutory minimum, currently just $13.75 an hour.

   All the candidates would increase that rate, too. But it is one thing to promote a figure for wage bargaining, another to impose it by law. Unemployment would rise if industries could not absorb the extra cost.

   And, oh dear, to poor caucus:

   The Labour caucus are the forgotten voters in this campaign.

   They have rejected Mr Cunliffe once and might still prefer Mr Robertson. But they must be prepared to accept whoever the election delivers, along with whatever policies the winner is making on the hoof.

   Mr Cunliffe would come with regional development projects, a forestry planting programme financed by carbon credits and some changes to Labour’s plan to raise the superannuation age to 67.

   Mr Robertson’s baggage includes wood processing schemes, a summit conference and a monetary policy priority of employment.

   Mr Jones wants to crack down on the supermarket duopoly, stop Australians buying houses here and scrap the northern motorway extension to Puhoi.

   Some choice.

   And the poll beside it is surely not to be believed: Jones & Robertson vying for top spot non 40% each, and Cunliffe coming a distant 3rd on 20%?
   • Ron 4.1

     5 September 2013 at 8:28 am

     You misunderstood Robertson’s exciting new policy on wood processing. This is actually a carefully thought out programme aimed at removing the dead wood in Labour’s Parliamentary Party.
     We should all support a programme like that
   • Pasupial 4.2

     5 September 2013 at 8:58 am

     All self-selecting and unverified polls are not to be believed; the phone polls have a big enough margin of error (usually approx <1000 sample size for +/- 3% at 95% confidence, even if there is no systematic bias in the sample). How many of those "voting" are Labour party members for one thing? Another; can they "vote" more than once by restarting their browser?

     At least they have to make that much effort as just reloading the page won't let me make a second "vote" for Cunliffe. Also there was no reponse to my vote just now (ie its still 40/40/20%), which given that the response is in the 0-50 range means that; either four people voted contrary to me at exactly the same instant, or the entire mechanism is a scam.

     My guess is that Jones & Robertson got their 40% from the robot vote, while Cunliffe's 20% is from actual Labour members who are intending to vote. But that's kind of my point; there is just no real information there to be analysed.
     • framu 4.2.1

       5 September 2013 at 9:05 am

       the other interesting thing with the herald is how quickly comments are added to a particular opinion column

       armstongs recent effort where he said not very much, in very few words, except repeated reality show references is still sitting at zero

       you can pretty much guarantee that there where some pretty strong objection to the tone and quality of what he was saying.

       Shelly bridgman doesnt seem to have the same problem with getting comments added though
     • karol 4.2.2

       5 September 2013 at 9:21 am

       The poll, as opposite Claire Trevett’s rumour-mongering article, has Cunliffe in the lead, and Robertson in 3rd place after 250-300 votes (very small sample still).

       Focus in the article on who caucus members support. Shearer for Jones?

       Interesting though that the Dairy Workers’ Union has (allegedly) issued a non binding recommendation to support Cunliffe.
       • Anne 4.2.2.1

         5 September 2013 at 10:27 am

         From karol’s link:

         Helen Clark does get to vote on the leadership but has not publicly endorsed any of the three contestants, although David Cunliffe has said he was optimistic he had her vote.

         I call bullshit on that. From memory Cunliffe was asked last week if he had Helen Clark’s support. He replied… he would love to have Helen’s support. That’s been twisted to mean he believes he has her support. That is NOT what he said.

         However bear in mind that David Cunliffe was Helen’s first choice to take over as leader when she stepped down. He wasn’t interested then – probably because he recognised it as being a poisoned chalice. And there folks you may have the underlying reason for the ABCers’ (especially the more senior among them) illogical dislike of him – JEALOUSY.
         • Hami Shearlie 4.2.2.1.1

           5 September 2013 at 10:40 pm

           I agree totally, Anne! That’s always been my summation of the ABC squad’s case against David Cunliffe – Pure unadulterated jealousy!
         • Colonial Viper 4.2.2.1.2

           5 September 2013 at 10:59 pm

           However bear in mind that David Cunliffe was Helen’s first choice to take over as leader when she stepped down.

           Where did you hear this from? I think this conversation has come up some time before…
           • Anne 4.2.2.1.2.1

             6 September 2013 at 8:44 pm

             I was made aware of it 2 to 3 years ago CV. From memory it was a senior L.P. official who told me.

             I was told that Steve Maharey had been her original preference but he resigned from politics.
       • David H 4.2.2.2

         5 September 2013 at 12:00 pm

         Upto 1000 votes now. 47% for Cunliffe.
         • Pasupial 4.2.2.2.1

           5 September 2013 at 10:28 pm

           It’s 49% Cunliffe now on 1350-1400 sample size – for what’s that worth. Given that I could cast multiple votes; from the same user account, on the same computer, on the same IP address, on the same day, I’d say not very much!
   • Tracey 4.3

     5 September 2013 at 12:06 pm

     I notice the report being trumpetted by some this morning as a glowing endorsement of national’s policies has Germany at number 4… germany where annual leave is 7 weeks per year and wages higher than NZ. BUT, I hear you ask, how can that be, the sky falls if you give more annual leave and higher wages?
5. just saying 5

   5 September 2013 at 8:20 am

   I was just taken back to a post on Parker withdrawing from the last leadership debate, on my first hit of the ‘comments’ button.

   Looking forward to the democratic process continuing….
   • lprent 5.1

     5 September 2013 at 8:32 am

     Umm… The page/object caching system has improved, but still seems to have some glitches.

     I’d prefer to run without any dynamic caching at all. Problem is that when we have an abrupt spike in page reads/comments then the site falls over. I usually find out between 5 and 25 minutes later. What I need to do is to have some way of detecting the CPU spike on the web server and automatically scaling up the caching responses.

     Was planning on attacking that last weekend. But a flu laid me out instead.
6. phillip ure 6

   5 September 2013 at 8:28 am

   comments disappearing after posting..?

   ..(not going into moderation..just vanishing..)

   phillip ure..

   [lprent: There was something odd happening with the anti-spam last night. Looks like it is still going on. ]
   • karol 6.1

     5 September 2013 at 8:51 am

     Yes, I can see about 5 comments from the last 15 minutes, by regular TS commenters, sitting in the spam folder.
     • One Anonymous Knucklehead 6.1.1

       5 September 2013 at 9:05 am

       Move to inbox 🙂
       • karol 6.1.1.1

         5 September 2013 at 9:08 am

         Yes, I could rescue them. But it might be instructive to Lynn to see which ones are getting caught in the spam trap. And he does seem to be around online at the moment. I will wait a bit. I don’t usually take a leading moderator, editor role here.
         • One Anonymous Knucklehead 6.1.1.1.1

           5 September 2013 at 9:10 am

           Sorry, I realise in hindsight how that comment could be read as an instruction. My bad.
7. bad12 7

   5 September 2013 at 8:30 am

   What were Garner and Espiner thinking on TV3’s ‘the Vote’ last night, in what looked like a deliberate attempt to smear David Cunliffe over His and obviously Grant Robertson’s wish that their families be kept out of the leadership contest,

   That little piece of television Jonolism was possibly the most atrocious attempt to ‘manufacture’ a scandal i have ever had the displeasure to bear witness to,

   Garner and Espiner should mind their manners as Labour is likely to head the next Government and the shape of TV3’s books indicating that they are not in the best of financial conditions might mean that the channel needs to approach the Government for financial help,

   If that were to happen i would suggest that Labour tell the board of that particular channel to go ask Garner, Gower, and, Espiner to bail them out of their financial difficulties,

   For making mountains out of molehills and paying scant regard to the facts Garner and Espiner can share a coveted ‘Golden Turd Award’…
   • phillip ure 7.1

     5 September 2013 at 8:42 am

     i was somewhat gobsmacked that they managed to pull off the tour de force of doing a feature on a political candidate..running in an election for a political post..

     ..that was totally politics-free..

     ..thereby setting a new/fresh benchmark in ‘soft’-journalism…

     ..a show that seemed to be mainly about espiner enjoying jones’ billy-t-james karaoke-routine..

     ..phillip ure..
   • Steve 7.2

     5 September 2013 at 8:42 am

     “The Vote’ is Laurel & Hardy on steroids and should never be mistaken for current affairs.

     The contrived little cosy bonhomme banter and the frenetic “we must move on” style is so painful I can no longer bear to watch.

     Laurel & Hardy would make me cry with laughter – with these clowns the tears are of despair.

     This is one of the shiniest examples of what happens when you hand your broadcasting network over to the marketing department.
     • framu 7.2.1

       5 September 2013 at 9:01 am

       “This is one of the shiniest examples of what happens when you hand your broadcasting network over to the marketing department.”

       bang on the money – the impact of marketers and accountants has had a highly detrimental effect on the news, and many other forms of media as well
   • BLiP 7.3

     5 September 2013 at 8:45 am

     ‘

     Yep . . . corporate head office must have put the hard word on its two “operators”. I wonder why . . . oh yeah, that’s right . . .

     . . . Labour Party communications spokeswoman Clare Curran questioned whether the MediaWorks receivership was part of a tax dodge which would leave New Zealand taxpayers out of pocket.

     KordaMentha receiver Michael Stiassny said that under the new arrangements, a disputed $22 million debt to the Inland Revenue Department before the courts was likely to be unpaid . . .
8. Winston Smith 8

   5 September 2013 at 8:34 am

   http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/nz-leaps-australia-world-competitiveness-rankings-

   – Just in case anyone missed this, good news for NZ 🙂
   • Molly 8.1

     5 September 2013 at 4:58 pm

     NBR? Really?

     Didn’t bother with the article but a couple of the comments made me smile….
     “What is the point of this ranking of countries? Who does it help exactly? Seems like a waste of time and money.”
     “Depends if you equate being able to buy more stuff with a better life…”

     Looks like a few of their readers are starting to develop a wider perspective.
9. BLiP 9

   5 September 2013 at 8:37 am

   I attended a Mayoral Candidates meeting at Auckland University last night. My intention was to shore up my decision to vote for John Minto but came away resolved to give Len Brown another go. He deserves it. I know, I know . . . the warfies, the PPPs, the lack of transparency, the rapacious CCO executives, and all the rest of it. However, after the meeting and an animated conversation over a few beers afterwards, I was reminded of just how poisoned a chalice Len was handed by Rodney Hide. Acting on John Key’s instructions, Hide basically served up a neo-conservative’s wet dream with the intention that John Banks would settle in with an auctioneer’s gavel and flog the lot. The fact that we still have our parks, pools, community halls, airport shares, port, and libraries is a testament to Len and his team. So too is the fact that he’s managed to bring the Super Shitty into some sort of order is also worthy of support and speaks volumes for the amount of invisible, behind-the-scenes effort which has gone into stymying National Ltd™’s real intentions for Auckland. And the rest of New Zealand’s local bodies.

   Highlight of the evening: Penny Bright hadn’t been invited to participate but turned up anyway. The public were kept out while five burly security guards sought to intimidate her and her single support person while a clutch of flustered and increasingly pissed off Univerity Events’ staff attempted to hector the pair into backing down. Eventually, and probably because of the media presence just dying for some sort of drama to enlighten their reports, Penny won the day and particpated in the event. Nice one, Penny.

   ****

   Interesting comparison between John Kerry and Colin Powell’s calls for bloodshed in the interests of US corporatations . . .

   . . . Another key claim is asserted without substantiation: “Syrian chemical weapons personnel were operating in the Damascus suburb of ‘Adra from Sunday, August 18 until early in the morning on Wednesday, August 21, near an area that the regime uses to mix chemical weapons, including sarin.” How were these personnel identified, and what were the signs of their operations? How was this place identified as an area used to mix sarin? Here again the information provided was far less detailed than what Powell gave to the UN: Powell’s presentation included satellite photographs of sites where proscribed weapons were being made, with an explanation of what they revealed to “experts with years and years of experience”: “The two arrows indicate the presence of sure signs that the bunkers are storing chemical munitions,” he said, pointing to an annotated photograph of bunkers that turned out to be storing no such thing. Powell’s presentation graphically demonstrated that US intelligence analysts are fallible, which is part of why presenting bare assertions without any of the raw materials used to derive those conclusions should not be very convincing . . .

   . . . this whole Syrian issue is getting murkier and murkier yet the MSM carries on beating those war drums and other international leaders prepare to offer their “moral support” for an immoral act.

   ****

   WTF is Fonterra up to? Just weeks after giving China a world-wide free kick to the goolies over New Zealand’s 100% Pure Bullshit nonsense, our premier brand company is pressing ahead with plans to take coal from an open-cast mine just a few kilometers away from schools and homes!! Obviously, these plans have been around for a while but, since this is happening just a few miles down the road in Mangatawhiri, anyone seen a report in the New Zealand Herald about this latest round of hearings? Not. A. Word. Well, I suppose it Fashion Week . . . priorities and all that.

   ****

   Speaking of The New Zealand Herald, I’ll just leave this here: https://adblockplus.org/en/firefox

   ****

   Hardly comforting to see New Zealand is not alone in gaining an international reputation for the systematic trashing of its citizens’ human rights. In a speech celebrating the 60th Anniversary of the European convention on human rights, the most senior judge, Sir Nicolas Bratza, condemed the “virulent attacks” on human rights now taking place in the UK. He went on to say . . .

   . . . Rekindling the fire and keeping the act and the UK within the convention will not be an easy task. It will involve confronting those determined to destroy both. But it will also involve taking every opportunity to make more widely known to the general public the untold benefits which have derived from bringing rights home. It will be a hard fight, but one worth winning. It is more than that; it is a fight which must be won . . .

   New Zealand, of course, was subject to similar criticism by our own Law Society. In its submission to the United Nation’s Human Rights Council, the Law Society expressed it concern at the on-going and accelerating “number of recent legislative measures are fundamentally in conflict with the rule of law.”

   The Law Society’s report highlighted a number of general concerns including Bill of Rights reporting, the mususe of parliamentary urgency, access to justice, and a little something called “Henry VIII Clauses”. These things are pernicious little devices inserted into legislation which allow for enactments to rewritten by regulation and, thus, empower the executive to override parliament. The original Henry VIII Clause was inserted into a 1531 Act called the Statute of Sewers, which seems fitting because, by the look of things, we are in the shit.

   Specific concerns about the erosion of the human rights in New Zealand include various provisions in the Immigration Amendment Bill 2012, the Land Transport (Admissibility of Evidential Breath Tests) Amendment Bill 2012, the New Zealand Public Health and Disability Amendment Act 2013, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill 2013 and the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill 2013.

   Worryingly, there has been zero MSM attention to these concerns by the Law Society nor even the fact that the actions of the New Zealand’s parliament is being brought to the attention of the United Nations. The report goes on to say . . .

   . . . Scant attention (if any) is paid in Parliament to concluding observations [of] New Zealand’s international human rights obligations, and the New Zealand courts have referred to concluding observations only once in their judgments. Further, while the courts have cited the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the Convention on the Rights of the Child on various occasions, other human rights treaties have only been referred to sporadically. The media pay little attention to concluding observations or in ternational human rights obligations,and there is a low level of awareness about them amongst the New Zealand public . . .

   ****

   Another big fat lie from the John Key led National Ltd™ government, this time spouted with typical arrogance from Steven Joyce. He is quoted by Radio New Zealand this morning as denying that TVNZ was allowed to provide a smaller dividend in return for selling its land to SkyCity. Yet, watch this July 6 TVNZ video at 01:44 where he says . . .

   . . . my understanding is the shareholding ministers have written to TVNZ and said “well, look, if you need, for example, to slow down your dividend stream for two or three years to enable you to do this sort of renovations that would actually allow this to happen they’d [the shareholding ministers] would be happy to do that” and that would be something for TVNZ’s board to consider . . .

   Welcome to the John Key led National Ltd™ government’s ashparushional “brighter future” folks.

   ****

   That’ll serve lprentice right for sleeping in and trying to blame some technowhizzkid gadget leaving me too much time on my hands to build up sufficient steam surfing around the place waiting for Open Mike to open up . . . I only meant to write my change of mind about Len.

   : )
   • Greywarbler 9.1

     5 September 2013 at 12:54 pm

     Penny Bright – is that your real name? – good on you and friends for attempting to take on the Auckland (or Awkland or Awkward) Supershitty machine and standing your ground.
10. phillip ure 10

    5 September 2013 at 8:43 am

    (heh..!..comments disappearing again..)

    phillip ure..
11. One Anonymous Knucklehead 11

    5 September 2013 at 8:59 am

    H/t to Davejac who linked this in the Cunliffe thread yesterday: Professor Sir Peter Gluckman’s report “The role of evidence in policy formation and implementation.”

    These findings demonstrate a wide and rather inconsistent range of practices and attitudes toward evidence across government agencies.

    Hekia and Paula, you are the weakest link.
12. One Anonymous Knucklehead 12

    5 September 2013 at 9:01 am

    Comments vanishing…
    • karol 12.1

      5 September 2013 at 10:03 am

      It looks to me like all/most of the comments in the spam folder have raw links/urls in them.
      • lprent 12.1.1

        5 September 2013 at 11:14 am

        Figured it out earlier (fixed now). Was my bad. I auto spammed an idiot last night from a proxy address, and put in my usual comment // without the details of their name. It was picking up the // in the http://

        *grimace* Shows what happens when you do stuff on auto.
13. One Anonymous Knucklehead 13

    5 September 2013 at 9:01 am

    Sorry if this is a duplicate.

    H/t to Davejac who linked this in the Cunliffe thread yesterday: Professor Sir Peter Gluckman’s report “The role of evidence in policy formation and implementation.”

    These findings demonstrate a wide and rather inconsistent range of practices and attitudes toward evidence across government agencies.

    Hekia and Paula, you are the weakest link.
14. One Anonymous Knucklehead 14

    5 September 2013 at 9:03 am

    Trying to post this comment for the fourth time…

    H/t to Davejac who linked this in the Cunliffe thread yesterday: Professor Sir Peter Gluckman’s report “The role of evidence in policy formation and implementation.”

    These findings demonstrate a wide and rather inconsistent range of practices and attitudes toward evidence across government agencies.

    Hekia and Paula, you are the weakest link.
15. Winston Smith 15

    5 September 2013 at 9:30 am

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/nz-leaps-australia-world-competitiveness-rankings-

    – Just in case anyone missed it, I think the govt deserves a round of applause for this
    • fender 15.1

      5 September 2013 at 10:33 am

      As per usual you are repeating yourself, unless comment no.8 is another WS of course.

      Celebrating these stats that are achieved via attacking workers rights and conditions is hardly worth celebrating, unless you hate people that is. Don’t worry, if Abbot becomes Australian PM this weekend he will attempt to kick Aussie workers enough to even up the stats.
    • karol 15.2

      5 September 2013 at 10:38 am

      I commented on that shonkey piece of research last night. I said:

      …the NZ Initiative business survey on international competitiveness, on RNZ. I don’t know why anyone would take their research seriously. The radio report did have a comment from Bill Rosen saying it was totally skewed towards the interests of businesses and not workers. And there was a comment from Don brash about NZ’s low wages and vast inequality gap.
    • Draco T Bastard 15.3

      5 September 2013 at 12:07 pm

      Yeah, isn’t it amazing what lowering wages can do?
    • Tracey 15.4

      5 September 2013 at 12:16 pm

      Did you look at the report instead of the NBR summary? You would see the graph. IF you wish to appalud national for the result, please be sure to include the last Labour Government in your applause too.

      However, Germany is ahead of us at number 4. Workers have 7 weeks annual leave and higher wages. You will agree that is starnge winston because National believes the sky will fall and the economy will collapse if you increase annual leave or wages, let alone both.

      Also interesting to see where the government ranked poorly, in innovation and business sophistication…

      I have tried to locate the social summary part of the report, still reading though. Feel free to beat me to it.

      Correction: Germany does not have a minimum wage, they are debating it now

      “Unlike many other EU countries, Germany does not have a national minimum wage even though specific industrial sectors have one. The upper chamber of parliament, the Bundesrat, has now proposed a minimum wage of 8.5€. The debate over introducing a general minimum wage has therefore emerged and we want to summarize this debate, in particular German media voices, positions of German political parties as well as statements of economists. “
16. Greywarbler 16

    5 September 2013 at 9:33 am

    What’s in the morning news today?
    A waste processer called Remediation Ltd is fined $750 for breaching some quality control. The firm has been in trouble before. A farmer followed traces of contamination resulting in detergent-like foam, back to a side creek on which apparently leachate from the composting firm would filtrate.

    Maori are doing something to keep NZ alive – introducing young people to innovation ideas and business. Some youngsters have come up with an alarm mat that gets them out of bed when they want to get up, yet are tempted to press the snooze button again on their clocks. The alarm mat needs feet on it to stop. A smart idea!

    Fonterra found traces of plastic in their powder after non-standard equipment used. Well-paid executives actually having to examine their own performance with critical eyes. An unusual experience. Bacteria in milk powder may show tests for spores, but not toxins. Which is an important difference when trying to understand the problem. In May 2012 there was suspicion that plastic was in powder, it was reprocessed and sieved before it was sent on from Hautapu as satisfactory. It was that lot that showed up later with clostridium spirogenes, or similar sounding, that is not of food danger. What complications, I find it so hard to get my head around all the information and its meaning.

    Broadband roll out – government tenderer gave contract to Australian firm Transfield. Which then subcontracts, to possibly NZs, who have not been paid since July, one said owed $1million.
    NZ doesn’t shoot itself in foot any more, has found it cheaper to saw through its ankles and will soon end up legless.

    NZ Government producer of educational material of high NZ quality, invention, culture for more than a century – closed down. The savage hordes of neo liberal invaders into our society of intelligence and culture and universality, have shown on their accounting methods that the School Journals not competing successfully on a commercial basis. I think I will make a protest feeble though it is against this rock-hard phalanx of philistines.

    A whisper around is that all of us who aren’t working for wages are to be replaced by cheaper cardboard cut-outs. They will be erected in the shallow front yards of properties with house fronts of one room wide and the backs forming small industrial sheds where people left will make things from trash or do Mao Chinese-style smelting of scrap metals for the USA defence market.
    • Greywarbler 16.1

      5 September 2013 at 9:52 am

      The School Journal. I heard about it first from populuxe!
      http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04092013/#comment-691329
    • bad12 16.2

      5 September 2013 at 9:58 am

      Yes, just what is going on with the Governments roll out of high speed broadband, has this like everything else touched by Slippery’s National government turned instantly to s**t, the reverse Midas touch,

      Chorus the original contractor seems to have then contracted the work to Transfield who in turn have contracted the work to a number of New Zealand sub-contractors,

      Kaching kaching, goes the tills of the ‘ticket clippers’ as they fall all over themselves to feast on this billion dollar Government contract,

      Chorus is said to be in a little trouble on a number of fronts with some commentators suggesting that they put in a far to low tender price for the work in the first place, perhaps we will see this as the next firm to suffer the largesse of yet another National Government bailout of their business buddies,

      There’s already a ‘perhaps’ related piece of shonky Governance occurring where the Commerce Commission appears to have been shunted aside from being able to set the wholesale prices Chorus, the ex-teleconned, charges for broadband connections,

      The relevant Minister, as if any National Ministers have any relevancy left, Amy Adams is set to, after reviewing the Commerce Commissions pricing it intended to apply to Chorus, halve the savings to the consumer the Commerce Commission intended thus giving Chorus a heap more coin out of everybody’s pockets,

      The latest news which at it’s heart points to the not insubstantial fact that this National Government couldn’t find a s**t in the middle of a sewer looks like either the ‘contractors’ are attempting to strong-arm Amy Adams into regulating in favor of Chorus or Chorus in the first place tendered a far to low price for the broadband rollout….
17. Greywarbler 17

    5 September 2013 at 9:57 am

    I heard about the government closing down the School Journal first from populuxe!
    See him for link. http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04092013/#comment-691329
18. Greywarbler 18

    5 September 2013 at 10:00 am

    Yes mine has vanished too, three times. Don’t know where, don’t know when, we’ll meet again. Very Lynn where are you when we need you. This probably won’t come through either??

    edit Well here I am whew! My previous ones had a link to a previous comment by populuxe who mentioned the School Journal being closed a few days ago. Perhaps the machine has been thrown out by the link not being accepted or something. Just thought I’d mention that as possible explanation.
    • Greywarbler 18.1

      5 September 2013 at 11:36 am

      Hey I was being funny and I didn’t know it. Must point out this occurrence.
      I used a Vera Lynn song line in previous comment but through a typo went up as Very Lynn, where are you, as I had trouble getting the comment up. And forsooth the very Lynn came to the rescue. Thanks Lynn.
19. joe90 19

    5 September 2013 at 10:02 am

    This really is horrifying.

    Abstract

    The authors calculate that some 125,000 nuclear warheads have been built since 1945, about 97 percent of them by the United States and the Soviet Union and Russia. The nine nations with nuclear weapons now possess more than 10,000 nuclear warheads in their military stockpiles, the authors estimate, with several thousand additional US and Russian retired warheads in storage, awaiting dismantlement. The nuclear stockpiles of China, as well as Pakistan, India, Israel, and North Korea, are minuscule in comparison with the US and Russian arsenals, but more difficult to estimate. Still, the authors believe that China’s nuclear weapons stockpile has surpassed Great Britain’s. Although the total number of nuclear warheads in the world is decreasing because of US and Russian reductions, all the nations with nuclear weapons continue to modernize or upgrade their nuclear arsenals.

    http://bos.sagepub.com/content/69/5/75.full
20. joe90 20

    5 September 2013 at 10:06 am

    Horrifying.

    Abstract

    The authors calculate that some 125,000 nuclear warheads have been built since 1945, about 97 percent of them by the United States and the Soviet Union and Russia. The nine nations with nuclear weapons now possess more than 10,000 nuclear warheads in their military stockpiles, the authors estimate, with several thousand additional US and Russian retired warheads in storage, awaiting dismantlement. The nuclear stockpiles of China, as well as Pakistan, India, Israel, and North Korea, are minuscule in comparison with the US and Russian arsenals, but more difficult to estimate. Still, the authors believe that China’s nuclear weapons stockpile has surpassed Great Britain’s. Although the total number of nuclear warheads in the world is decreasing because of US and Russian reductions, all the nations with nuclear weapons continue to modernize or upgrade their nuclear arsenals.

    http://bos.sagepub.com/content/69/5/75.full
21. phillip ure 21

    5 September 2013 at 10:11 am

    a gif on the numbers of people who have died from a marijuana overdose..

    ..(i was shocked..it evinced a rethink..)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/03/marijuana-deaths_n_3860418.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

    phillip ure..
    • phillip ure 21.1

      5 September 2013 at 10:48 am

      and in perhaps even more shocking drug-news..

      http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/hallucinogenic-health-trip-lsd-may-not-be-bad-for-you-says-study-8798900.html

      “.. after conducting an exhaustive study on tens of thousands of Americans –

      – a team of Norwegian scientists has concluded that LSD may actually be good for you..”

      whoar..!

      ..eh..?

      ..what’s next..?..

      ..prescribing heroin may be actually better than prescribing (the much more addictive/soul-sapping) methadone..?

      ..is there no end to this..?

      ..are we getting/suffering from an outbreak of drug-sanity..?

      ..phillip ure..
    • joe90 21.2

      5 September 2013 at 10:52 am

      The death of Rachel Hoffman was awful.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Hoffman

      http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/09/03/120903fa_fact_stillman?currentPage=all
      • Greywarbler 21.2.1

        5 September 2013 at 11:28 am

        This war against drugs. It is an example of the failure to have reasoned legislation, monitored, and with an automatic cancellation after say 2 years if results do not match expectations when carried out in a way that doesn’t undermine the law and fair treatment. That should be written, or something similar, into the USA constitution.

        Instead you get powerful pollies and well paid government appointees whose moral sense has got corroded, if they ever had one, and they adopt corrosive approaches of rigid targetting against people not complying with whatever law that the pollies have seen fit to introduce, many of them unhelpful to society. Rigid targetting doesn’t work when applied to people, who can’t be treated like pieces of metal to be shaped in a factory to a desired product.

        It is ugly behaviour from ugly people to deal with an ugly problem, while the cause of it all is never wholely examined because the answer is also ugly. And very hard to change or abandon, because so many people are making good pay-offs dealing with it in one form or another, the money-makers at the bottom and those at the top administering this pandora’s box. Or perhaps its vice versa, with the drug makers king, and the administration struggling with limited resources. The use of Rachel Hoffman is just one of the wholely disgraceful methods that police and the justice system have used in the ‘drug war’ and nobody can win in such circumstances.

        Even the writer of a tv show called Breaking Bad about drug makers and dealers is having trouble ending it. http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/tv-radio/a-bad-ending-breaking-bad-creator-talks-about-trying-to-end-the-cult-hit-29541046.html
      • ianmac 21.2.2

        5 September 2013 at 11:49 am

        Yes Joe. Rachel’s death points to the power/intimidation of the police or other state powers. Meanwhile back in NZ…?
    • Greywarbler 21.3

      5 September 2013 at 11:43 am

      I'[m not going to bother looking at the huffington post again. It gives me the huff for sure. I can’t scroll down easily, the page jumps away and a different one comes up and it wastes my time.
    • joe90 21.4

      5 September 2013 at 2:16 pm

      This too.

      http://otherwords.org/political-side-effects-tolerating-legal-pot/
22. Tracey 22

    5 September 2013 at 10:56 am

    Following comment from Robertson on Herald live chat rightnow

    “The Living Wage campaign is a voluntary commitment by employers to pay the $18.40. I am saying the government can show leadership in this area and set a standard. Check out http://www.livingwage.org.nz for more info. I favour the minimum wage increasing immediately to $15 for everyone and going up from there.”

    Nothing terribly ambiguous there. Well done Grant
    • bad12 22.1

      5 September 2013 at 11:52 am

      Yes, an immediate move to a $15 dollar an hour minimum followed by a raising of that minimum by the same amount in the following 2 years would have those trapped at present in the low waged economy at the level of the living wage,

      The problem here for Labour is the big bad ‘I’ word, Inflation and i would suggest that the interest rates become a matter of the Minister of Finance ‘fixing’ such rates, allowing for some price inflation but always being mindful of the effect of interest rates in the wider middle class demographic,

      As far as raising the minimum wage causing unemployment goes, pffft absolute rubbish, there may be an initial knee-jerk from employers as was shown when the ‘youth-rate’ was previously abolished, but, within the year that effect has disappeared as business competes to attract the greater amount of monies flowing through the economy,

      i posted these links yesterday, but, they are still relevant so will add them to the discussion again today,

      ”In Nevada USA where the minimum is $7.25 an hour the jobless rate is 10.2%”,

      ”In Vermont USA where the minimum is $8.60 an hour the jobless rate is 5.1%

      http://www.newyorker.com/…/the-case-for-a-higher-minimum-wage.htm...

      What occurred when the youth rate was abolished in New Zealand,

      ”16-17 year olds unemployment initially increased by 1.4-2.6%, BUT, that negative impact on unemployment was not evident a year later”

      http://www.blog.greens.org.nz/…/its-official-abolishing-youth-rates-did-not-increse...
      • Tracey 22.1.1

        5 September 2013 at 12:03 pm

        any stats on how many let go older employees and brought in younger, or is that one too hard to collect and measure?
        • bad12 22.1.1.1

          5 September 2013 at 3:53 pm

          Tracey, no sorry, i was specifically searching for that which debunks the economics 101 ‘theory’ that raising the minimum wage automatically leads to higher unemployment,

          That would be a hard stat to find, which reminds me i must see if i can dig out the ‘youf’ unemployment rate as a comparison befor this abysmal Government started it’s attack on that particular demographic and after,

          i would at a guess, expect to find the youth unemployment figures have risen instead of receding…
23. Linz 23

    5 September 2013 at 11:18 am

    On a lighter note, checking up on something JF Kennedy said I found this. Feel free to substitute other names as you see fit.

    “Several nights ago, I dreamed that the good Lord touched me on the shoulder and said, ‘Don’t worry, you’ll be the Democratic presidential nominee in 1960. What’s more, you’ll be elected.’ I told Stu Symington about my dream. ‘Funny thing,’ said Stu, ‘I had the same dream myself.’ We both told our dreams to Lyndon Johnson, and Johnson said, ‘That’s funny. For the life of me, I can’t remember tapping either of you two boys for the job.’
    • fender 23.1

      5 September 2013 at 12:42 pm

      ..Well, the doctor interrupted me just about then,
      Sayin, “Hey I’ve been havin’ the same old dreams,
      But mine was a little different you see.
      I dreamt that the only person left after the war was me.
      I didn’t see you around.”

      Well, now time passed and now it seems
      Everybody’s having them dreams.
      Everybody sees themselves walkin’ around with no one else.
      Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
      and some of the people can be all right part of the time,
      but all of the people can’t be all right all of the time.
      I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
      “I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours,”
      I said that.

      Bob Dylan.
24. joe90 24

    5 September 2013 at 11:49 am

    So it isn’t the fracking that causes earthquakes – it’s the practices.
    /

    http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/03/does-fracking-cause-earthquakes-wastewater-dewatering

    http://www.nbcnews.com/science/fracking-practices-blame-ohio-earthquakes-8C11073601
25. yeshe 25

    5 September 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Bryan Gould, articulate as ever .. has his say in Herald this morning .. begins with Cameron’s Westminster defeat over Syria, but ends with cutting criticism of Key and the TPPA … worth a read .. so good to know that someone is awake at old granny after all ….

    “Overseas corporations will have greater legal rights against our government than does any New Zealand individual or company; and future New Zealand governments will not be able to change that position even if they are elected to do so.” (Labour candidates, please note !)

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11119471
26. Greywarbler 26

    5 September 2013 at 1:24 pm

    And even if we did have a revolution and try to get free from the USA, the TPPA and its tightening tendrils, it would give them an excuse to attack us, just a small one for a small country like was it Grenada, and show us what’s what. You don’t mess around with us sonny. Friends wouldn’t cut it if we didn’t stay behind as the dingy dinghy.
    http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/155/25966.html

    And where would we stand with China? They are the country for the future, not USA trying to maintain its power.
27. amirite 27

    5 September 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Anyone listening to Radio Live Political Panel with Chris Trotter and Matthew Hooters?
    Hooton worked himself into the right lather over the possible Cunliffe win, going into hysterics, painting him like a rabid right winger (yes, you’ve heard that right), a lazy arse and in the end nearly started frothing at the mouth. I thought he will smash the studio and that Trotter or the two hosts JT and Willie would have to slap him to calm him down.
    Now he’s trying reverse psychology and saying that Key’s preferred choice is Cunliffe.
    Tui ad!
    • weka 27.1

      5 September 2013 at 2:43 pm

      Apparently Hooters had a go in his NBR column too (behind a paywall currently thank-god).
      • David H 27.1.1

        5 September 2013 at 8:46 pm

        Another dose of Hootens Horseshit is out. More sycophantic fawnings of the inner circle wanna be. The trouble with Hooten, is I think he is confused as to who he wants Key to Prefer. Or is he secretly hoping that the Nats fall on their collective arses in a screaming heap of disillusioned voter?
    • Saarbo 27.2

      5 September 2013 at 3:01 pm

      For Hooten it all comes back to self interest I guess, not too long ago when Shearer seemed entrenched as leader, Hooten started acknowledging that Cunliffe would be the best leader. I was a bit suspicious of Hooten’s motives when he said it, anyway things have changed since then and if Cunliffe is successful in becoming leader, then he will very probably lead to a loss for Hooten’s beloved National in 2014 and consequently the loss of contacting revenue for him..hahahaha, brilliant.
    • felix 27.3

      5 September 2013 at 3:21 pm

      Listening now, gawd what a lunatic. Seriously, if he behaved like that in a bar he’d be thrown out.

      Sounds like his funding has been threatened.
    • rod 27.4

      5 September 2013 at 4:25 pm

      Who in their right mind would want to waste their time listening to Radio Live. The whole set up is riddled with right wing Hacks.
      • felix 27.4.1

        5 September 2013 at 7:27 pm

        Thursday afternoon between 2 and 3 is always worth a listen. If you like hearing blood vessels pop and spittle flying, that is.
    • Paul 27.5

      5 September 2013 at 4:39 pm

      Didn’t listen to it and it’s great to hear the growing hysteria on the right.
      Cunliffe must be saying the right things.
      Hooton can always go to the good ole’ U. S.of A to the home of his hero Ayn Rand.
28. jaymam 28

    5 September 2013 at 2:48 pm

    Please help. I have just done politicalcompass.org, and apparenly I am Gandhi. What do I do? Join the Greens again? They have a major policy that I don’t like. As you should know 🙂
    • weka 28.1

      5 September 2013 at 2:54 pm

      Which policy?
      • jaymam 28.1.1

        5 September 2013 at 2:56 pm

        I believe in mitigating the effects of climate change, not spending hundreds of billions of dollars in a futile attempt to stop it.
        • lprent 28.1.1.1

          5 September 2013 at 3:57 pm

          I believe in mitigating the effects of climate change, not spending hundreds of billions of dollars in a futile attempt to stop it.

          You can’t stop it, it is going to happen anyway because what has already been pushed into the atmosphere will take thousands of years to dissipate.

          There are no ways to “mitigate” what will happen if we keep pushing CO2 into the atmosphere. The best way to mitigate it will be to reduce the amount of fossil carbon being burnt, because that will cost less than famines, wars, and human diebacks as agricultural system get trashed as we head towards doubling the current CO2 levels over the next century.

          There is still quite a lot of coal to go through – at least several hundred years worth. So at what point during this journey to an unknown climate do you think we should stop? Perhaps you can explain your logic of inflicting your stupidity on your children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and for at least the next hundred or so generations?

          I’m sure that they are all dying to find out…
          • Greywarbler 28.1.1.1.1

            5 September 2013 at 6:05 pm

            When he is dead and doesn’t have to put himself out in making changes that will affect someone else’s climate experience.
          • jaymam 28.1.1.1.2

            5 September 2013 at 6:52 pm

            Only a few percent of CO2 in the atmosphere was put there by mankind. We certainly can’t do anything about the rest.
            We know from ice cores that every 100,000 years the temperature fluctuates enormously, far more than anything mankind can possibly affect.
            However I don’t want to start a huge discussion about climate change here. You’ve already banned Jenny for doing so.
            P.S. I’m beginning to think that you don’t know who Jenny is, although I thought it was obvious for a couple of years. I’m not telling, but the ban is a mistake.
            • lprent 28.1.1.1.2.1

              5 September 2013 at 7:22 pm

              Wrong. It has nearly doubled over the last 150 years. Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth's_atmosphere for a overview. The relevant sections are:-

              Although the initial carbon dioxide in the atmosphere of the young Earth was produced by volcanic activity, modern volcanic activity releases only 130 to 230 megatonnes of carbon dioxide each year,[19] which is less than 1% of the amount released by human activities (at approximately 29 gigatonnes).[20]

              The next question is how do we know the sources. Well…

              While CO2 absorption and release is always happening as a result of natural processes, the recent rise in CO2 levels in the atmosphere is known to be mainly due to human activity.[24] Researchers know this both by calculating the amount released based on various national statistics, and by examining the ratio of various carbon isotopes in the atmosphere,[24] as the burning of long-buried fossil fuels releases CO2 containing carbon of different isotopic ratios to those of living plants, enabling them to distinguish between natural and human-caused contributions to CO2 concentration.

              Basically any Nitogen 14 exposed to sunlight directly or indirectly gets bombarded by solar radiation (mostly alpha and some beta) and produces Carbon 14 giving a distinct isotopic mix. That is pretty much of the only source….

              Any carbon getting blasted out of volcanoes has been in close proximity with decaying uranium and other heavy radioactive masses with their larger amounts of beta and gamma radiation that drive volcanic and magmatic heat. That tends to drive a difference in the C12/13 ratios. The oil fields, coal fields and gas fields by their very nature aren’t magmatic, nor are they accessed by the sun. Their radioactivity after millions of years sequestered is virtually zero apart from a small amount of lowlevel background radiation.

              Damn easy to look at changing ratios of Carbon14 in the atmosphere along with the C12/13 and figure out the balances. The only thing that has been screwing this calc up was how long it took to get accurate measurements of the amount of carbon being pushed into the oceans.

              Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_carbon and lookup soem stuff on the 5000+ year half-life of C14
            • lprent 28.1.1.1.2.2

              5 September 2013 at 7:30 pm

              …I’m beginning to think that you don’t know who Jenny is…

              When I’m moderating with the exception of authors and guest authors I literally don’t care. I ignore IRL identities. What I look at it is behaviour and past behaviour. I might consider IRL when I do the exit sarcasm, but that is mostly to ensure that they have a memorable experience.

              Incidentally, ask any politician, manager or anyone else who has run across me over the years. As far as I’m concerned if people can’t code then they aren’t worth too much respect. Kind of myopic but it does tend to reflect my usual focus and provides a useful ward against being awed by much. In the current parliament that means the only person I think I’d have to consider as having inherent worth is Maurice Williamson….
              • jaymam …

                5 September 2013 at 8:08 pm

                I was sure I saw an article here by Jenny as an author here but I can’t find it now. I’ll say no more, except that would you ban David Parker or Hone Harawira if they were a bit obsessive here?
                We are all on the same side.

                I’ve been a systems programmer for 20 years, so clearly I deserve respect!
                • karol …

                  5 September 2013 at 8:15 pm

                  I think Jenny may have had one of the guest post she submitted posted here.

                  Jenny Michie is an author here – different person/username.
                • lprent …

                  5 September 2013 at 8:39 pm

                  🙂 But you notice that we seldom talk about code here ….

                  Jenny Michie? She has been on for quite a few years. I think that we have done a guest post or two from the other jenny.
            • weka 28.1.1.1.2.3

              5 September 2013 at 8:07 pm

              “However I don’t want to start a huge discussion about climate change here. You’ve already banned Jenny for doing so.”

              Jenny didn’t get banned for starting a discussion about climate change (if I recall correctly she got banned for giving Lynn shit about something in his capacity as moderator, a well-known banning offence. Nothing to do with CC). You do your argument a huge disservice to try and distort history like that.
              • lprent …

                5 September 2013 at 8:50 pm

                From memory she dumped a big rant about climate change into a post that wasn’t even remotely about it. I shunted it to OpenMike and warned her again. She then proceeded to play the martyr about it. Personally I always like would-be martyrs wandering around saying how much they expect to be banned. My view is that they should always get what they so clearly want.. and then some more….

                I actually rather like debates about climate change. I seldom either moderate or ban people in those posts unless they are doing some really egregious trolling. It is more fun in my non-moderator role being sarcastic and poking holes in the arguments of others – usually from all sides.
            • karol 28.1.1.1.2.4

              5 September 2013 at 8:10 pm

              P.S. I’m beginning to think that you don’t know who Jenny is, although I thought it was obvious for a couple of years. I’m not telling, but the ban is a mistake.

              The good thing about using pseudonyms online is that people are judged by the quality of their comments, not who they are or know elsewhere in their life.

              Banning for breaking the blog rules/policies, isn’t a “mistake”.
            • lprent 28.1.1.1.2.5

              5 September 2013 at 9:10 pm

              ..every 100,000 years the temperature fluctuates enormously, far more than anything mankind can possibly affect.

              Those aren’t mysterious. That is just the Milankovitch cycles, and in particular the 100k cycle..

              It causes the glacials. Those are geologically *small* variations in world temperatures compared to the geological record. You could also look at continental drift, after all it was the movement of antarctica into the polar zone that caused earth to drop into a ice age with a truly geological *large* changes in earth’s temperatures.

              However there is nothing like either of those within the last 10 thousand years that humans have built our civilisation based on a period of high climatic stability. Now we’re busy destroying that stability with a relatively *small* temperature change geologically through stupidity.

              But I have to agree with you. You highlight that humans can’t tell what a small or large change is in world temperatures. Apart from anything else we completely evolved during a long ice age with minor up and down fluctuations… Even minor shifts in climatic temperatures and energy look large to us – and our ability to grow food.
        • Colonial Viper 28.1.1.2

          5 September 2013 at 6:17 pm

          I believe in mitigating the effects of climate change, not spending hundreds of billions of dollars in a futile attempt to stop it.

          You realise that you can create a US$100B account credit using about a dozen key strokes?

          “Lack of money” is not an excuse.
          • jaymam 28.1.1.2.1

            5 September 2013 at 6:35 pm

            I said “a futile attempt to stop it”. No amount of money will alter global temperature by more than a fraction of a degree, or sea level by a millimetre.
            So why wreck the world economy by trying? Instead, spend the money on stopping the pollution of streams and erosion, and on collecting rain water, as a start.
            • Mary 28.1.1.2.1.1

              7 September 2013 at 12:17 am

              So what you’re essentially saying is that humankind is unable to stop people making choices, in this case making decisions that have the effect of wrecking the environment?
          • bad12 28.1.1.2.2

            6 September 2013 at 8:41 am

            Yes CV, money is simply a construct and applying that theory to ‘climate change’ leads me to believe that the IPCC has been side-tracked down the wrong branch line in it’s efforts to reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere,

            The ‘problem’ inherent in moves to limit the output of CO2 into the atmosphere create two diametrically opposed ‘minds’ in many of us as well as our ‘leaders’ and our economies,

            On the one hand there are not many of us who do not have some understanding of climate change and the dangers such a changing climate may pose, on the other, to make the adjustment needed in our economies and society which reduces our emissions of CO2 to a level considered ‘safe’ is scary to say the least for a majority of citizens, politicians and businesses,

            There is of course the odd small ray of light appearing from amid the gloom, one being that in the year 2012 some 550,000 tonnes of CO2 was deliberately removed from the atmosphere on an industrial scale,

            That of course is small change in comparison to the actual amount needed to be removed so as to create for the Earth a ‘safe’ level of CO2 in the atmosphere and the article i will link to does not give a ‘cost’ of such a large scale removal system,

            However, if we then revert our thinking back to the proposition of money being a simple construct we could envision,(dreamer nothing but a dreamer),a system where the IMF or the World Bank create for the IPCC the monies necessary to construct all over the planet industrial plants capable of removing from the atmosphere CO2 on an industrial scale,

            3 such plants in 2012 removed from the atmosphere 550,000 tonnes of CO2, what would 300 or 3000 such plants remove from the atmosphere,

            Such industrialized removal of atmospheric CO2 would only necessitate the agreement of Governments as to the time scale of construction in each country with regards to the prevailing economic conditions present, monies created by the IMF/World Bank would be used to build and operate such industrial plants under the management of the IPCC,

            Further into my link i came across a GEM of an idea, and it’s introduction must be via the question what would YOU personally be willing to pay to remove the appox: 20 tonne of CO2 we are all said to be responsible for accumulating yearly in the atmosphere,

            The Wiki-article i read discusses a prototype ‘Scrubbing Tower’ capable of removing that 20 tonne of CO2 from the atmosphere yearly with the cost of electricity to operate this scrubbing tower half as much again as your average household fridge,

            Obviously the link discussing this prototype talks of up-scaling it to an industrial sized object, but my wee mind immediately froze the proposal at the point of a simple household appliance,

            Perhaps the size and cost of the household fridge costing not much more to run where like the household dehumidifier once full to capacity had a system where the storage container was simply dropped into the household recycle bin for disposal,

            How many of us would use such an appliance??? it’s initial cost perhaps subsidized???i would suggest that should such a system of CO2 removal from the atmosphere prove to be efficient most households within a decade would have one in the backyard…

            http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/carbon_dioxide_removal
            • jaymam 28.1.1.2.2.1

              6 September 2013 at 9:58 pm

              You say “3 such plants in 2012 removed from the atmosphere 550,000 tonnes of CO2, what would 300 or 3000 such plants remove from the atmosphere,”

              3000 such plants would remove 550,000,000 tonnes of CO2, which is about 0.07% of the CO2 already in the atmosphere (750,000,000,000 tonnes).

              To remove a significant amount of CO2 from the atmosphere, say 10%, you’d need over 400,000 such plants, not 3000.
              There is a very real energy cost in running just one of those plants, let alone 400,000 plants. Just where is that energy to come from? Please don’t say fossil fuels. Windmills and solar panels produce a miniscule amount now. There’s not much more hydro power to go.
              So it will have to be nuclear power. OK by me if it’s safe, but nuclear is not safe enough yet. And still very expensive, especially to decommission after 30 years. Do you still drive a 30 year old car? They get a bit unreliable, but don’t do meltdowns.
              • bad12 …

                6 September 2013 at 10:36 pm

                Am i right in saying that current man-made production of CO2 to the atmosphere is 35.6 billion tonne annually,

                So 30,000 such plants would perhaps filter the annual usage out of the atmosphere, there are actual studies that show that if wind movement is used in conjunction with windmills and chemical processes industrial amounts of CO3 can be removed from the atmosphere,

                How the 3 plants talked of in the Wiki-link remove that amount of CO2 i have yet to aquaint myself with…
                • Clement Pinto …

                  6 September 2013 at 10:43 pm

                  I think we should put those gas sucking machines in the wealthiest National/ACT suburbs.
                • jaymam …

                  7 September 2013 at 12:41 am

                  If you manage to sequester 35.6 billion tonnes of CO2 annually, where is it going to go? That’s about 100,000 times as much CO2 every year than what killed 1,700 people at Lake Nyos in 1986, so it really shouldn’t be injected into the earth. And I suspect that the energy cost of sequestering a tonne of CO2 may be quite a lot of the energy that could be obtained by burning a tonne of coal. I think sequestration of a significant amount of CO2 is impossible. Show me evidence if there is any.
                  • weka …

                    7 September 2013 at 12:58 am

                    You can sequester carbon in soil using regenerative land management/farming techniques. Google Alan Savory as a starting point.
                    • jaymam …

                      7 September 2013 at 1:42 pm

                      Yes I think Alan Savory’s ideas are excellent. I have no problem with sequestering carbon in soil by natural means.
                      When coal and oil was formed, the level of CO2 in the air was very much higher than today. The plants used up most of the CO2, to the point when their growth slowed.
                    • lprent []

                      7 September 2013 at 2:01 pm

                      When coal and oil was formed, the level of CO2 in the air was very much higher than today. The plants used up most of the CO2, to the point when their growth slowed.

                      Ah no. The first point was correct. The second is complete bullshit.

                      The outgassing of carbon from the earths core has been steadily diminishing as the lighter elements get heated by the slow nuclear reactor beneath our feet and preferentially get expelled for the mantle and core. The amount of gas being expelled from deep under the crusts is now a fraction of what it was a hundreds of millions of years ago.

                      That diminishes the supply of CO2 into the atmosphere and therefore into the carbon sinks of swamps and continental margins.

                      Quite simply the effect of giving plants extra CO2 has a trivial effect on their growth under natural conditions compared to giving sufficient water, fixed nitrogen, phosphorus, even soil carbon, and trace elements if any of these are in short supply (and usually most of them are).

                      Try some actual information on experiments testing your silly idea (and showing only minor improvements in plant growth). The only place where having extra CO2 has a significiant effect is in artificial environments like glasshouses where *all* of the other constraints on plant growth are removed. But that has nothing to do with the natural world.

                      I have no problem with sequestering carbon in soil

                      And that is simply ludicrous. How exactly is it proposed that the “sequestered” carbon is meant to stay out of the atmosphere for thousands or even millions of years?

                      You do realise that soil excretes CO2 as the process of decomposition proceeds right? That is part of the natural carbon cycle does. It may be slower in permafrost or swamps, but it still carries on unless you drop a pile of impermeable sediment over it. Even coal when exposed to the air and without fire will slowly oxidize to CO2

                      Sorry, but the word “fool” is increasingly coming to mind as I read your ill-informed and under researched ideas.

                      Update: Drat. The links in that realclimate factoid have been shifted. Does anyone have a more current page to help educate jayman? I’m busy with code right now and I’m about to lose connectivity to TS from my workstation while I test some new code for it.
                    • jaymam …

                      7 September 2013 at 9:34 pm

                      “How exactly is it proposed that the “sequestered” carbon is meant to stay out of the atmosphere for thousands or even millions of years? ”
                      Soil and sediments hang around for a very long time.
                      So can I take it that you are not in favour of sequestration? I agree that sequestration in other than soil is quite pointless.

                      Here are some details about carbon reservoirs and the fluxes between them:
                      http://worldoceanreview.com/en/wor-1/ocean-chemistry/co2-reservoir/

                      And here is another list of all carbon reservoirs possibly accessible by mankind. Observe how large the first two reservoirs are compared with the CO2 in the atmosphere:

                      limestone 79.97941%
                      sediments 19.99485%
                      methane clathrates 0.01466%
                      DIC deep 0.00507%
                      mineral 0.00163%
                      Atmosphere 0.00100%
                      DOC deep 0.00093%
                      other soil 0.00080%
                      Plants 0.00073%
                      peat 0.00048%
                      POC soil 0.00033%
                      DOC surface 0.00005%
                      POC deep 0.00003%
                      microbial 0.00002%
                      POC surface 0.00001%
          • srylands 28.1.1.2.3

            7 September 2013 at 12:07 am

            “You realise that you can create a US$100B account credit using about a dozen key strokes?

            “Lack of money” is not an excuse.”

            Good grief.
            • Colonial Viper 28.1.1.2.3.1

              7 September 2013 at 5:32 am

              Hi Charlie Brown! Are you an economist now?
29. Paul 29

    5 September 2013 at 4:34 pm

    On the panel, Josie Pagani cheerleading for Obama’s intervention in Syria, despite common sense proposed by expert and Gordon Campbell.
    Does she get her morals from Blair and Bush?
    If she is the voice of Labour, God help them.
    Good to hear Gordon Campbell destroying her nonsensical arguments! Look forward to Morrissey’s take on the discussion.
    • Paul 29.1

      5 September 2013 at 4:48 pm

      Now she’s saying Martin Luther King was speaking to ‘Waitakere Man’.
      Groan. Channeling Shane Jones for the Labour Party leadership, I think.

      Again Gordon Campbell Live calls her on the nonsense she has spewed.
      A good panel as GCSB does not allow Pagani to get away with the nonsense she is talking.
      • Paul 29.1.1

        5 September 2013 at 4:59 pm

        And it continues…..

        Gordon Campbell calls the press gallery media for their poor coverage of the Labour leadership and for telling people how to think.
        Pagani defends he rates in the corporate media ..but then that’s hardly surprising as she is comfortable on the Huddle with Larry Lackwit Williams..
        For once Mora stays quiet, although it is clear he does not cope well with conflict as he rushes on to discussing wood burners. Good ole’ Jim….much more comfortable when there is consensus.

        Can Gordon Campbell host the Panel? He’d be great challenging the nonsensical unsupported views of many members of the panel.
        • Greywarbler 29.1.1.1

          5 September 2013 at 6:26 pm

          Paul
          Mora runs a magazine type program, some political discussion is allowed amongst other more important matters. Probably there had been too much time spent on the pollies. He will stay I think hosting the program as he is reaching a number of NZs of the happy not too critical type. ‘Such a nice guy – does up gardens for disabled people’. Middle of the road and no-one is going to run into him.

          He wanted to go to someone complaining about Chch Environment ending up with a spotty system of some stoves allowed and close by others not. And whether they are banning very good performing heaters. Her last comment was that there must be less sex happening in Christchurch now open fires were not allowed to cast their romantic rosy glow. Which was a good finish I think in Mora’s eyes, upbeat and amusing to him.

          Gordon McLauchlan? was too serious for him and was starting to repeat the serious stuff, ie that jonolists are not reporting the real matters of importance on the tour of the three tenners. Josie was all lightness and lightweight, but he said they do just concentrate on the lighter stuff, and making up catchphrases perhaps as I have done.
      • Paul 29.1.2

        5 September 2013 at 4:59 pm

        And it continues…..

        Gordon Campbell calls the press gallery media for their poor coverage of the Labour leadership and for telling people how to think.
        Pagani defends her mates in the corporate media ..but then that’s hardly surprising as she is comfortable on the Huddle with Larry Lackwit Williams..
        For once Mora stays quiet, although it is clear he does not cope well with conflict as he rushes on to discussing wood burners. Good ole’ Jim….much more comfortable when there is consensus.

        Can Gordon Campbell host the Panel? He’d be great challenging the nonsensical unsupported views of many members of the panel.
        • scotty 29.1.2.1

          5 September 2013 at 5:03 pm

          agreed ‘
          I think it was Gordon Mc Lauchlin?
          • Paul 29.1.2.1.1

            5 September 2013 at 5:10 pm

            Yes you are right…. Gordon McLauchlin.
            He’s been on before I think and challenged other members of the panel when they have made outrageous statements.
    • phillip ure 29.2

      5 September 2013 at 4:54 pm

      (i was gonna say..)..

      pagani furiously pummeling the drums of war..on the panel..

      ..no care about casualties from obamas’ promised three month pummelling of syria from the air…

      ..no questioning of the evidence/proof that half the worlds finds far from believable/convincing..

      ..(‘proof’ that emanates from the same source for the iraq-war-justification..mossad..)

      ..and no panelists/host-questioning that evidence either..

      ..is all of that a ‘given’ for them..?

      ..or just another reeking example of them being ‘unthinking-fools’..?..

      ..now pagani is praising the coverage of the labour leadership race..by the mainstream-media..f.f.s..!

      ..against gordon mclaughlins’ literate plaints around the paucities of any content..

      ..(but of course pagani just loves that pro-rightwing coverage ..eh..?..she would say that..eh..?..)

      (even mora finally has enough of paganis’ wall-to-wall-bullshit..)

      ..phillip ure..
      • Clement Pinto 29.2.1

        5 September 2013 at 9:52 pm

        I have a horrible feeling that this US involvement of firing missiles into Syria will unleash a barrage of counter missiles from Syria, Israel, Iran and who knows who else against who knows who else! A BIG mistake from Obama and USA without definite proof that it wasn’t the rebels who staged the chemical weapons to undermine Assad to involve US and a BIG mistake to strike Syria without the full backing of the UN, Russia and China. I hope my fears won’t come true.
        • Clement Pinto 29.2.1.1

          6 September 2013 at 5:05 pm

          Russia releases key findings on chemical attack near Aleppo indicating similarity with rebel-made weapons.

          See details here:
          http://rt.com/news/chemical-aleppo-findings-russia-417/
30. joe90 30

    5 September 2013 at 7:01 pm

    Hillsborough’s dead and dying were pickpocketed. By the police.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hillsborough-police-paid-money-found-among-the-dead-into-forces-coffers-8793702.html
31. joe90 31

    5 September 2013 at 7:09 pm

    Disabled people marching in the UK about the huge cuts to support.

    http://bambuser.com/v/3881218
32. Greywarbler 32

    5 September 2013 at 7:14 pm

    Sounds like the commercial imperative winning in the South Yorkshire Police and the service and respect for duty to the public fading right out. The chiefs suggesting that police should claim from a benefit fund set up for the injured and families of the dead, so that police could obtain things for their own use and enjoyment is mind-boggling and callous.
33. Morrissey 33

    5 September 2013 at 7:16 pm

    Simon Marks’s hysterical repetition of Washington propaganda.
    Who selects these substandard contributors?
    Radio New Zealand National Morning Report, Thursday 5 September 2013

    Last night, Radio New Zealand National wheeled on the extreme race-baiting, atrocity-approving ideologue Daniel Pipes as a “middle east expert”. This morning, the farce continues, with the already abysmal coverage of the Syrian crisis on Morning Report sinking, almost unbelievably, to a new low. The “correspondent” they went to for comment was the infamous BBC hack Simon Marks, who has repeatedly been outed for his credulous, nasty and partial commentary. Here’s a sample of Marks’ absurd contribution, just after the 6 a.m. news. Reading the print version means you miss his indignant tone, but the craven adherence to official U.S. propaganda is all there…..

    GEOFF ROBINSON: This is a major development, Simon.
    SIMON MARKS: Well, yes, it could be said that Mr Putin is FINALLY looking like a responsible world leader. But remember that this is the same Vladimir Putin that just a day or so ago was going to send Russian lawmakers to lobby U.S. members of congress against invading Syria.
    GEOFF ROBINSON: Didn’t he call John Kerry a “liar”?
    SIMON MARKS: Yes that’s right. And remember this is the sa-a-a-a-ame Vladimir Putin whose body language was so extre-e-e-e-eme that President Obama described him as behaving “like a bored schoolboy.” Relations between Russia and the United States are frozen right now over a range of issues, including the fate of the American whistle-blower Edward Snowden.
    GEOFF ROBINSON:Simon Marks, thank you very much.

    Simon Marks at no stage during that ridiculous three minutes resembled a reporter; someone turning on the radio might have thought he was a particularly dyspeptic White House spokesman. It has to be said that in Geoff Robinson, he had the perfect interlocutor—affable, polite and unquestioning. But by any reasonable and fair standards, Simon Marks’s performance was unacceptable, and a stronger, more intelligent, more confident host than Robinson would surely have challenged some of his wild rhetoric. Which begs the question: why does Radio New Zealand use him, when there are any number of credible and respected alternatives?
    • Paul 33.1

      5 September 2013 at 7:54 pm

      Simon Mercep is even tamer to interviewees,
      • Morrissey 33.1.1

        5 September 2013 at 8:25 pm

        Yes, he is pathetic.
34. logie97 34

    5 September 2013 at 9:06 pm

    This one is a little out of left field, but who is responsible for the designing of the lighting on pedestrian crossings?

    Lights that shine directly down on a crossing, might show up the white lines for those crossing but they certainly do not illuminate the pedestrians. Now if the lights were to be positioned to shine at approximately 45 degrees rather than vertically, they would certainly be far more effective. Just saying …

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