The great debate

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 pm, September 19th, 2023 - 97 comments
Categories: election 2023 - Tags:

Who will win tonight’s debate?  Will Christopher Luxon release his foreigner land purchase tax calculations spreadsheet?  Will Chris Hipkins talk about sausage rolls?

Stay tuned …

Comment welcome.

97 comments on “The great debate ”

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  1. mickysavage 1
    19 September 2023 at 7:04 pm

    Hipkins talks about climate change and Luxon talks about the economy. Sums up the difference between the left and the right.

  2. SPC 2
    19 September 2023 at 7:06 pm

    I'm unable to stream online off TVNZ.

    I’ve had to go to Stuff for news reporting of it.

    I’ll have to wait for it to go on demand and watch then.

    Just as well they do not do the world cup …

    • observer 2.1
      19 September 2023 at 7:15 pm

      You're not missing much, I've turned off even before the first ad break.

      "I love the energy you're bringing!" says Jess to Luxon. Who cares? What does she think she is? It's not Celebrity Treasure Island.

      • mickysavage 2.1.1
        19 September 2023 at 7:16 pm

        Pretty chaotic so far. I think that it will be more important to look confident than to be coherent …

      • SPC 2.1.2
        19 September 2023 at 7:17 pm

        We do have to realise TVNZ has made a loss and there is real fear as to what a National government might do about that (cost cutting no more money …).

        Hipkins saying Labour is “wining the battle on inflation” is fine.

        But adding that “National’s tax cuts would make things worse” is wrong.

        Labour wants to raise the MW to the LW and for the FPA to lift wages – to deliver as much or more help to those who need it (than tax cuts where the most goes to those on above the average/median wage).

        • SPC 2.1.2.1
          19 September 2023 at 7:28 pm

          Tried again (from the start) and to the weather …

          Hipkins start about hearing from Christopher and himself reminds one a Jim Carrey film about Irene.

          • SPC 2.1.2.1.1
            19 September 2023 at 7:42 pm

            It's good he stomped on the National Party deception about $250 every 2 weeks for the average family with kids – that is only for those paying child care with kids under 5, for the rest is $25 per week/$50 a week for a couple.

      • AB 2.1.3
        19 September 2023 at 7:31 pm

        Mutch-MacKay seems as gormless and shallow as usual. These supposed 'debates' are always inconclusive and pointless. By far the best format is one-on-one interview with a well-informed, intelligent interviewer. Switched off now.

  3. mickysavage 3
    19 September 2023 at 7:18 pm

    Freakin Michael Hill Jeweller ad followed by a Countdown ad during the break. Ah capitalism …

  4. mickysavage 4
    19 September 2023 at 7:26 pm

    Hipkins' answer on Taiwan was freakin good and well weighted.

    • Chris 4.1
      20 September 2023 at 8:59 am

      It was so good Luxon understood and quickly agreed. Would've been great if Luxon answered first, he would've fucked it up for sure.

  5. Kat 5
    19 September 2023 at 7:45 pm

    I'm waiting for jessica@6pm.news to ask how often the candidates masturbate…….this is the worst leaders debate I have ever seen…….

  6. weka 6
    19 September 2023 at 8:08 pm

    Hipkins is quite good. They're both doing the gladiator bullshit, but Luxon is doing far more playing the man not the ball. Hipkins seems better at explaining policy, probably because Labour have actual policy. Luxon is obviously well schooled at evasion.

  7. gsays 7
    19 September 2023 at 8:11 pm

    Gotta say, for all the resources, this is underwhelming.

    The Working Group does a way better, if a tad more chaotic, job. Without state funding, as you will be told if you have a look.

    Tonight there is a review of these two by a panel of political pundits at 9pm. On the usual platforms.

    In the quickfire, it shows how closely aligned these two are.

    • Belladonna 7.1
      19 September 2023 at 8:19 pm

      Agree. I've been pretty underwhelmed. Both seem to be PR-polished to within an inch of their lives.

  8. observer 8
    19 September 2023 at 8:14 pm

    There was a great cartoon after a Reagan-Mondale debate in the 1984 US election. Captioned something like: "Mondale gets ruthless". The speech bubbles were:

    Reagan: "Flubble bubble flubble mumble …'

    Mondale: "I respect the President …"

    This feels like that. Given a chance to destroy, Hipkins acts nice. The only answer about Luxon's leadership should be "let's face it, he's not up to the job and we all know it".

    But that wouldn't be respectful, so the BS gets a free pass. The public will pay the real price, not Hipkins.

  9. Mr Nobody 9
    19 September 2023 at 8:15 pm

    Luxon standing head and shoulders above Chippy whom seems unable to point to any successes his government has achieved while Luxon clearly communication a path forward for New Zealand.

    • Kat 9.1
      19 September 2023 at 8:22 pm

      Well then perhaps you might like to answer the question how often you masturbate…..

      • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.1
        19 September 2023 at 8:33 pm

        No body there?

      • Mr Nobody 9.1.2
        19 September 2023 at 8:34 pm

        More frequently than Labour Ministers loose their Cabinet position but less frequently than Ram Raids are committed in Labour's New Zealand.

        • Kat 9.1.2.1
          19 September 2023 at 9:05 pm

          Phew.. not as frequent as Luxons verbal ejaculations then……

        • Louis 9.1.2.2
          19 September 2023 at 9:11 pm

          What makes you think that there were no ram raids or crime under National when 30 police stations closed down due to a lack of funding and that no cabinet minister lost their job? Nick Smith and Judith Collins did for starters.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.2.2.1
            19 September 2023 at 9:16 pm

            … less frequently than Ram Raids are committed in Labour's New Zealand.

            The Homicide Report: "Homicide is nine times more likely to occur in neighbourhoods with high levels of social deprivation."
            https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/the-homicide-report/

            Nobody is born a ram raider, or a murderer – there but for the grace of God…
            Imho, Mr Nobody is, and will be pretty comfortable – up the "bottom feeders"!

            Why poverty in New Zealand is everyone's concern
            Liang describes poverty as a "heritable condition" that perpetuates and amplifies through generations: "It is also not hard to see how individual poverty flows into communities and society, with downstream effects on economics, crime and health, as well as many other systems. Loosen one strand and everything else unravels."

            A Kete Half Empty
            Poverty is your problem, it is everyone's problem, not just those who are in poverty. – Rebecca, a child from Te Puru

            The Side Eye’s Two New Zealands: The Table
            https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/16-08-2022/the-side-eyes-two-new-zealands-the-table

            • Mr Nobody 9.1.2.2.1.1
              20 September 2023 at 4:28 am

              Mr Nobody is, and will be pretty comfortable – up the "bottom feeders".

              After growing up in Mangere, living in South Auckland over 30 years and currently living in a suburb with significant social disparity your belief is 100% wrong.

              Poverty is 100% a major motivator crime and addressing that will without doubt positively effect the crime statistics. However after six years of the current government:

              Crime is worse,

              Poverty is worse,

              Health is worse,

              Social cohesion is worse,

              Cost of living is worse

              New Zealand not only deserves better it requires better and this Government has proved itself as incapable of delivering.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                20 September 2023 at 9:39 am

                After growing up in Mangere, living in South Auckland over 30 years and currently living in a suburb with significant social disparity your belief is 100% wrong.

                Apologies for my incorrect assumption about where you currently sit at 'The Table' – up the "bottom feeders", and all the best for the future.

                New Zealand not only deserves better it requires better…

                Don't know about "deserves", but 100% agree with "needs" – whether our next govt is capable of delivering reduced inequality/cost of living/crime, and improved public health and social cohesion, time will tell.

                Zen and the art of motorway maintenance [7 August 2023]
                In this sense the pothole is a good symbol how of this election is proceeding. There are itches all around the body politic that demand scratching. In the moment we are far more aware of them than we are of the tumour quietly growing inside, the virus caught but not yet symptomatic, the vehicle crash that awaits around the corner, the fire about to engulf our home. The snake oil retailers draw attention to the easy solutions to the surface and immediate issues and we are often only too willing to reward them for it.

              • SPC …
                20 September 2023 at 9:39 am

                Evidence?

                And what policies of National are designed to address poverty?

                • Mr Nobody …
                  20 September 2023 at 10:33 am

                  And what policies of National are designed to address poverty?

                  You tell me, I'm not a National Supporter. I thought this thread was about who performed best in last night's debate between the Labour Party and National Party and as I said last night in my opinion:

                  Luxon standing head and shoulders above Chippy whom seems unable to point to any successes his government has achieved while Luxon clearly communication a path forward for New Zealand.

                  • SPC …
                    20 September 2023 at 11:03 am

                    Crime is worse,

                    Poverty is worse,

                    Health is worse,

                    Social cohesion is worse,

                    Cost of living is worse

                    All claims without supporting evidence.

                    And without reference to the global circumstance – both pandemic and global cost pressures on all nations.

                    • Mr Nobody …
                      20 September 2023 at 12:23 pm

                      All claims without supporting evidence.

                      Next you will be arguing the fact that we need air to stay alive is a claim, but to hopefully to satisfy you:

                      [really excessive number of links deleted]

                      The most frightening thing about all of those headlines (I found while putting them together at least) is how many are from this year alone.

                      New Zealand is BROKEN and the staus quo hasn't worked and

                      [evidence on TS means an explanation in your own words, backed up by selected and relevant quotes and links or references. Long lists of links with no context are considered spam and tend to piss of the moderators because your comment gets caught in the spam filter and we have to edit then release it manually – weka]

                    • weka []
                      20 September 2023 at 12:40 pm

                      mod note.

                    • SPC …
                      20 September 2023 at 12:51 pm

                      Are all nation states broken when there are global problems?

                • Louis …
                  20 September 2023 at 6:56 pm

                  None, SPC.

          • Mr Nobody 9.1.2.2.2
            20 September 2023 at 4:11 am

            What makes you think that there were no ram raids or crime under National.

            There well may have been, but what ever the statistic was it wasn't 2 per day.

            • Incognito 9.1.2.2.2.1
              20 September 2023 at 9:03 am

              There are 2 ram raids per day in Te Puke? That could be Chris Luxon trying to park his black Merc and/or his [wife’s] Tesla or maybe his 50cc scooter. He must be holidaying there a lot based on those ‘stats’.

              • Mr Nobody …
                20 September 2023 at 9:10 am

                There are 2 ram raids per day in Te Puke

                There are? I wouldn't know as I don't live there and would have thought that 2 ram raids per day referred to in last night's debate was nationwide. But considering crime has reached the point that the PM security team has to prevent him walking down main streets in Christchurch in the middle of the day as discussed with Megan Wood this morning on the radio perhaps that is correct.

                • SPC …
                  20 September 2023 at 9:43 am

                  Link? Crime or citizens abusing a politician?

                  • Mr Nobody …
                    20 September 2023 at 10:27 am
                    Mike Hosking When Chris Hipkins was in your electorate and I can't remember where it was. It must have been last week or possible the week before there was a street they were walking down Security did not want him to walk down that street. What was that street?
                    Megan Wood Oh it was Selwyn Street.
                    Mike Hosking Why wouldn't you want to walk down Selwyn Street?
                    Megan Wood Oh I don't know it wasn't a decision that the prime minister or any of his team made it was Security.
                    Mike Hosking But why would they be worried about Selwyn Street?
                    Megan Wood I'm not sure.

                    Newstalk ZB – 20230920

                    • Barfly …
                      20 September 2023 at 11:02 am

                      Hmm you listen to Hosking?

                      The poster child of nodding RW bobbleheads uugh ……enough said

                    • Mr Nobody []
                      20 September 2023 at 1:30 pm

                      I try to catch ĥis interviews with the PM (Tuesday) and the MPs on Wednesday mornings as they coincide with when I run my girls to school.

                      Otherwise usually listen spotify/podcasts/audio books. Really enjoying re-listening to World War Z currently.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      20 September 2023 at 11:02 am

                      But considering crime has reached the point that the PM security team has to prevent him walking down main streets in Christchurch in the middle of the day…

                      Did "the PM security team” really “prevent him walking down main streets in Christchurch in the middle of the day…", or is that just spin?

                      Ah jeez, I'll start taking this seriously in a moment – I apologise.
                      [@5:19 minutes]

                      Is that you Mike?

                • Incognito …
                  20 September 2023 at 9:45 pm

                  There are? I wouldn't know as I don't live there and would have thought […]

                  The problem with your factual assertions is that they are fact-free and amount to nothing more than RW talking points. In other words, you are trolling with made up BS reckons, not facts.

                  I note that another Mod has already dealt with your other comment (https://thestandard.org.nz/the-great-debate/#comment-1968904) that was a litany of RW spin. Just as well because I had another inconvenient piece of information for you to digest:

                  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/498394/the-falsehood-christopher-luxon-was-allowed-to-repeat-in-the-leaders-debate

                  Count yourself lucky that I had a busy day today and weka got to you first.

              • Louis …
                20 September 2023 at 6:58 pm

                yeslaugh Incognito

            • Clive Macann 9.1.2.2.2.2
              22 September 2023 at 5:17 pm

              It has already been acknowledged in the past that ram raids were not singled out as a crime.
              They were merely grouped in with robberies for statistical purposes.
              Sorry, no evidential link to that.
              It then became a political football that National picked up and ran with.
              No one tackled them so they scored with it and are still scoring with it.

  10. mickysavage 10
    19 September 2023 at 8:32 pm

    Dear Labour Party strategists. When you tell Chippy to talk about climate change get him to own the NZ Steel deal which will effectively take 300,000 cars off the road for a pretty cheap price. It is not a negative. It should be celebrated. It is what an activist Government does.

  11. weka 11
    19 September 2023 at 8:34 pm

    Two things stood out for me.

    Both Chrises bought their first house at 24. That's the sound of everyone under 30 banging their head in the TV screen.

    TVNZ's Ipsos poll found that 50% of New Zealanders don't think climate change will affect them. Fucking hell.

    • Francesca 11.1
      20 September 2023 at 7:52 am

      I just heard Fran O'Sullivan over at the Daily blog's working group panel say "New Zealander's are past egalitarian values .Now they just want to get ahead "

      And that folks, is what 40 years of neoliberalism delivers .Getting ahead by trampling on the heads of those underfoot.

      Communities fractured into dog eat dog , peak individualism

      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/09/19/9pm-live-tonight-freeview-200-the-working-group-taxpayers-union-post-leaders-debate-analysis-live-from-backbenchers-pub/

      • newsense 11.1.1
        20 September 2023 at 8:40 am

        God I hope you are wrong.

        What binds us as a country?

        Get ahead? By owning property, creating nothing, doing nothing memorable or useful or valuable for the community. Work for a multi-national company overseas, come back and buy a couple of houses. Trade them up and realise their untaxed capital gains.

        Spit on the third of the country renting.

        • Francesca 11.1.1.1
          20 September 2023 at 11:12 am

          Well I hope I'm wrong too.

          I hope we can get our mojo back, but the divisions over covid don't make me that hopeful

      • Barfly 11.1.2
        20 September 2023 at 11:08 am

        I will be tempted to break my sobriety when that evil women shuffles off this mortal coil. Ruth Richarson's "Mother of all Budgets" caused immense societal damage which the country is continuing to suffering from.

      • Anker 11.1.3
        21 September 2023 at 2:57 pm

        I think the Daily Blog post debate panel is really worth watching. Bryce Edwards, Fran, Simon Wilson and Jordan Williams. Comperes Bomber and Damien Grant.

        Some how what that panel had to say and how they operated sums up NZ politics for me.

        BTW I think Fran wasn't necessarily endorsing that people should concentrate on getting ahead rather than egalitarianism. I think it was just her perspective on current attitutes.

        I also interpreted "getting ahead" as meaning not merely scrapping by. But of course Fran is the only one who confirm what she meant.

        I found it interesting that she called out what you are not allowed to talk about nowadays without facing cancellation. She mentioned cogovernance, gender and the Listener 7

        Simon Wilson is more an activist than a journalist and of course he is allowed to be.

    • SPC 11.2
      20 September 2023 at 8:36 am

      Hipkins did so in partnership with his brother.

      There has always been an advantage to those able to work with others – we once had the co-operative society to assist with this and the trustee bank (profits back into community) – but we have allowed banking rules/regulation and corporate monopoly to form the neo-liberal order – the people as wage slave to corporate profit (suppressed unions and migration to enable greater employer profit is now the norm) doing the best for themselves.

  12. Anne 12
    19 September 2023 at 8:36 pm

    Luxon's game was to dominate every conversation and have the last word. It didn't matter if he was talking nonsense – which he frequently was – just so long as he spoke the most often and the loudest.

    • Kat 12.1
      19 September 2023 at 9:07 pm

      Remind you of any particular physical activity Anne…….

      Lets just say it as it is, National and Luxon are just a facsimilie of the real deal…comes on strong but somewhat faded and illegible in the end……

      Where is Brian Edwards when you need him….maybe Jack is the real deal…stuff it i’m off to bed….

  13. observer 13
    19 September 2023 at 8:44 pm

    So …

    Didn't watch it all, but from what I saw – it wasn't a debate. Not in any real sense. How many topics were covered, 50+? (including all the silly quickfire nonsense).

    If you can't say A therefore B but C because D … then there's no debate, no depth. You might as well just say "Petrol prices, boo! Climate change, boring!"

    Spinners will say their guy won, but let's face it, we all lost. Treated like game show idiots. F*ck TVNZ.

  14. Mike the Lefty 14
    19 September 2023 at 8:46 pm

    Hipkins missed a few chances to deliver decisive blows to Luxon on the issue of how ACT threatens to divide New Zealanders over the Treaty of Waitangi and abandon the small gains we have made on climate change. He made only one reference to the right wing coalition of nutters that I picked up and it was far too polite. Luxon was very vulnerable on these issues but Hipkins let him off too lightly.

    Hipkins needs to get down and dirty in the next debate. Graphically describe how the NACTs want to dismember the public service and lift house prices and interest rates to new levels.

    • observer 14.1
      19 September 2023 at 8:51 pm

      He failed on a really basic principle. Do not passively accept your opponents' framing. And in this case, the moderator's framing, which was more or less the same thing.

      But he's done this since he became PM, so nothing new.

      • newsense 14.1.1
        20 September 2023 at 8:46 am

        His game now will be to try and avoid blame for the loss.

        Sure members of his team let him down, but he’s chosen to accept that we can cut back the public service and he’s consistently signaled that much climate change work is to be defunded.

        In part he’s made National’s case for them.

  15. Dennis Frank 15
    19 September 2023 at 9:15 pm

    The Chris & Chris Show successfully broke the chronic tedium of the campaign so well done TVNZ. The surprise winner was Cunliffe. First time ever, he didn't come across as totally clueless. In fact, everything he said was good, so life after politics has worked a miraculous transformation.

    Jack Tame was as good too. Hipkins has to ditch the worried look but I like his new fast-talking style. Luxon oscillated between the usual Nat roboticism and authenticity; still not much substance there, flunked a few credibility challenges too. If Hipkins can somehow get a gravitas transplant, game on!

    The PM's problem is Labour's dead cat bounce potential. Given their record, what can secure a bounce? Luxon's helping him by faking it on finance. Anyone with half a brain watching knows refusing to release his professional advice is a sign of weakness.

  16. SPC 16
    19 September 2023 at 9:31 pm

    Apart from the contention over misrepresentation over the value of Nationals tax cuts, the heat was over dealing with disadvantage in accessing health care, assistance to landlords and plans to reduce emissions.

    Hipkins was disadvantaged by the lack of questions over wages, working conditions and National being dependent of making savings to government.

    Luxon did make it known that National intended to use external providers in health (whanau ora and maybe private), education (charter schools are back) and housing (including supply of “state/public housing” – reducing that from the waiting list). Mentioned talking to iwi about devolution of delivery.

    • SPC 16.1
      19 September 2023 at 10:00 pm

      As to making savings … the issue of National standing by its policies and not adopting those of ACT to afford its tax cuts …also not covered

  17. Cricklewood 17
    19 September 2023 at 9:32 pm

    Probably a win for Luxon on the basis he didnt shit the bed.

  18. Ffloyd 18
    19 September 2023 at 9:42 pm

    I think the stand out winners were the audience. Were they real? Just asking for a friend.

    Chris Hopkins was great.

    Jessica whatshername was dressed to go to a cocktail party. Let Pollyanna go on way too far.
    Didn’t address the BIG QUESTION. Show us your costings

    . Hipkins by far. Showed empathy, caring and passion for New Zealand/Aotearoa.

    Luxon is a slimy turd and needs to be flushed.

  19. ianmac 19
    19 September 2023 at 9:48 pm

    Not fair really that Chris Hipkins had to compete against Chris Luxon and Jessica MM. She cut off our Chris to prevent him bringing substance to the non-debate. Bah!

    • Anne 19.1
      19 September 2023 at 9:54 pm

      JMM cut Hipkins off before he was able to respond to Luxon's 'mistruths'. Yes, she cut off Luxon too, but Chippy wasn't mistruthing in the first place.

  20. George 20
    19 September 2023 at 10:08 pm

    All actual political discussion aside… what was with the disturbing hand choreography? Both Jessica Much and Jack Tame were gesticulating like lovelorn Italian men in a stage play…a new visual language I don't understand?

  21. fisiani 21
    19 September 2023 at 10:15 pm

    Hipkins had to dominate because he is so far behind. ODDS are $5.50 versus $1.15.

    He did not dominate. next weeks poll should be interesting

    • Louis 21.1
      19 September 2023 at 11:34 pm

      National's tax plan has blown enormous holes. Economists have said it doesn't add up and have called it bullshit. John Key said it won't work. Luxon parrots his lines but is evasive and looking dodgy by refusing to release the costings and you don't think that will affect Luxon and the National Party's polling, fisiani?

  22. Ffloyd 22
    19 September 2023 at 10:50 pm

    Hoping like hell that the next debate will be moderated by Kim Hill. Whatever happens will be the truth. All this crap being shovelled up to us by RW ahem! Journalists is just plain arrogant bull faeces. Time for rich people to start looking at us as the enemy. We are the people who have created their wealth. We can also create their poverty if we so wish. Tread carefully, for we tread on your dreams.

  23. tsmithfield 23
    19 September 2023 at 11:20 pm

    I was out tonight, so I didn't see the debate. Looking at the comments here, it seems that it would be a struggle to put together a highlights package.

    • weka 23.1
      20 September 2023 at 12:20 am

      consensus seems to be that it was boring.

      • mikesh 23.1.1
        20 September 2023 at 9:01 am

        There were no new policy surprises, and nor were there any new arguments (i.e. that we hadn't heard before) in support of existing policies. It was all very predictable.

  24. newsense 24
    20 September 2023 at 12:10 am

    Sorry NZ farmers you are not the most efficient in the world or the most efficient way to produce food taking climate change into consideration and just repeating it doesn’t affect what we will have to pay to meet our Paris obligations.

    • weka 24.1
      20 September 2023 at 12:19 am

      disappointing that Luxon was allowed to get away with that one.

      • tc 24.1.1
        20 September 2023 at 7:21 am

        Yes, TVNZ choose to use their senior autocue reader, a pretty useless moderator.

        We deserve better, Campbell or Kim, Kim's retiring she would be ideal IMO so unlikely we will see her.

  25. Sanctuary 25
    20 September 2023 at 7:54 am

    I didn't watch – the minute I heard Jessica Mutch-McKay – the ultimate concierge gallery journalist – was going to moderate I knew the debate was going to be an exercise in political kabuki. I also predicted that the outcome would be scripted performance cynicism from our utterly predictable dire pundit class – Tova was quick to not let me down this morning. To me, the unfortunate meta is Hipkins seems incapable in igniting any skerrick of tribal passion in Labour leaning voters. Expecting people to vote just to keep the other lot out isn't going to be enough. People need a reason to want to vote for you as well.

  26. Ad 26
    20 September 2023 at 8:36 am

    Curiously bloodless affair and I can't remember any specific lines.

    • SPC 26.1
      20 September 2023 at 8:42 am

      "You had 6 years" (Luxon on any topic) and "that's not true" (Hipkins on most things Luxon said on most topics – beginning with the lie that families with children got $250 extra a fortnight from tax cuts – it's only $25 a week each individual and $50 a week for a couple – the rest only occurs if there is a claim for a rebate on child care for under 5's).

  27. adam 27
    20 September 2023 at 8:54 am

    Yawn.

    Yeah labour going to lose to keep control of the left.

    Predictable as its a joke on you.

  28. tsmithfield 28
    20 September 2023 at 9:34 am

    I didn't see the debate. But I have seen a few snippets and read various commentaries on it.

    My thoughts are that Luxon won by not losing. I haven't even seen any commentators from any political perspective claiming that Chippy wiped the floor with Luxon. Most I have seen call it a draw or a slight win for Luxon.

    Many swing voters don’t really know much about Luxon. So, seeing him performing OK may have reassured them that Luxon is safe to vote for. Whereas, people already know Chippy quite well. So, they probably didn’t learn much new from him.

    I think the roles are reversed from last election where Collins needed to destroy Ardern to have a chance of turning the tide. That didn't happen then. That is what Chippy needs now. But, it didn't happen last night. And, I don't think the style of either of them means it is going to happen in upcoming debates either.

    If I was in Labour's shoes I would be quite worried I think.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 28.1
      20 September 2023 at 10:03 am

      If I was in Labour's shoes I would be quite worried I think.

      I'm not in Labour's shoes, and I am quite worried about potholes, smoke and mirrors.

      Zen and the art of motorway maintenance [7 August 2023]
      In this sense the pothole is a good symbol how of this election is proceeding. There are itches all around the body politic that demand scratching. In the moment we are far more aware of them than we are of the tumour quietly growing inside, the virus caught but not yet symptomatic, the vehicle crash that awaits around the corner, the fire about to engulf our home. The snake oil retailers draw attention to the easy solutions to the surface and immediate issues and we are often only too willing to reward them for it.

      Non-Resident Speculation Tax in Canada [updated 4 Nov 2022]

      Nats could make up some of the projected shortfall in revenue from their 15% foreign buyer tax/hoax by raising it to 25% – like they raised GST to part-fund tax cuts.

      Govt’s 2010 tax cuts costing $2 billion and counting [13 May 2012]
      The Green Party has today revealed that the National Government has so far had to borrow an additional $2 billion dollars to fund their 2010 tax cut package for upper income earners.
      …
      “The National Government said that their signature 2010 income tax cut package would be ‘fiscally neutral’ — paid for increased revenues from raising GST. That hasn’t happened.”
      …
      “National’s poor economic decisions have led to record levels of government debt and borrowing.”

      In other news, frauds and scams are on the rise…

    • Craig H 28.2
      20 September 2023 at 11:23 am

      Reminded me of 2017 where Ardern just had to not lose badly against Bill English. Anything close would be seen as a good outing, and that feels like the case here too.

  29. Barfly 29
    20 September 2023 at 11:12 am

    I dared a few seconds of the 'show' switched off lest I start breaking things angry

  30. ianmac 30
    20 September 2023 at 1:38 pm

    In my Leaders Debate I would have a proper mediator and a decent chunk of time set aside for an actual debate like the Economy, or Housing, or Cost of Living.

    Speak for 2 minutes each outlining your position

    Then 10 minutes for discussion, "What would your party to to fix Economy or….."

    The mediator would not be allowed to cut off the speaker.

  31. ianmac 31
    20 September 2023 at 1:44 pm

    Somewhere this morning I read where someone had tracked last nights timing:

    Luxon had 47% time.

    Hipkins had 32% time

    JMM had 25% of the time

    And they also logged the number of words each spoke.

    • weka 31.1
      20 September 2023 at 2:14 pm

      haven't read this properly yet but some good graphics on language and time.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2023/498355/hipkins-vs-luxon-the-first-leaders-debate-by-the-numbers

    • Gabby 31.2
      20 September 2023 at 7:01 pm

      Sounds like Hippy's heart just isn't in it. Maybe he doesn't disagree strongly enough with Luxie.

      • SapphireGem 31.2.1
        20 September 2023 at 8:13 pm

        Gabby, your comment is inane and intellectually lazy. If you watched the debate, you would be fully aware that Jessica MM repeatedly let Luxon talk at length without interruption, yet repeatedly spoke over Hipkins to prevent him from completing his responses.

        A notable example of Jessica MM cutting off Hipkins yet allowing Luxon to speak extensively was when the topic of the health system and doctor training was raised- she let Luxon rave on about a pie in the sky, grandiose idea of a new medical school at Waikato University, but when Hipkins replied that the current medical schools can cater to increased doctor training numbers, Jessica MM talked over him, didn’t let him elaborate, and cut him off.

        She also jumped from topic to topic, not allowing Hipkins to answer in depth. Jessica MM at one point commented that Luxon was doing really well- this is totally biased, fawning, and unprofessional.

        How about you do better with your comments.

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