The great debate
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7:00 pm, September 19th, 2023 - 97 comments
Categories: election 2023 -
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Who will win tonight’s debate? Will Christopher Luxon release his foreigner land purchase tax calculations spreadsheet? Will Chris Hipkins talk about sausage rolls?
Stay tuned …
Comment welcome.
97 comments on “The great debate ”
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Yesterday, I ruminated about the effects of being a political follower.And, within politics, David Seymour was smart enough on Friday to divert attention from “race blind” policies [what about gender blind I thought - thinking of maternity wards] and cutting school lunches by throwing meat to the media. Teachers were ...8 hours ago - A warm embrace
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Hipkins talks about climate change and Luxon talks about the economy. Sums up the difference between the left and the right.
I'm unable to stream online off TVNZ.
I’ve had to go to Stuff for news reporting of it.
I’ll have to wait for it to go on demand and watch then.
Just as well they do not do the world cup …
You're not missing much, I've turned off even before the first ad break.
"I love the energy you're bringing!" says Jess to Luxon. Who cares? What does she think she is? It's not Celebrity Treasure Island.
Pretty chaotic so far. I think that it will be more important to look confident than to be coherent …
We do have to realise TVNZ has made a loss and there is real fear as to what a National government might do about that (cost cutting no more money …).
Hipkins saying Labour is “wining the battle on inflation” is fine.
But adding that “National’s tax cuts would make things worse” is wrong.
Labour wants to raise the MW to the LW and for the FPA to lift wages – to deliver as much or more help to those who need it (than tax cuts where the most goes to those on above the average/median wage).
Tried again (from the start) and to the weather …
Hipkins start about hearing from Christopher and himself reminds one a Jim Carrey film about Irene.
It's good he stomped on the National Party deception about $250 every 2 weeks for the average family with kids – that is only for those paying child care with kids under 5, for the rest is $25 per week/$50 a week for a couple.
Mutch-MacKay seems as gormless and shallow as usual. These supposed 'debates' are always inconclusive and pointless. By far the best format is one-on-one interview with a well-informed, intelligent interviewer. Switched off now.
Freakin Michael Hill Jeweller ad followed by a Countdown ad during the break. Ah capitalism …
sugar ads after the sugar tax debate.
KFC Crispy ad too, lol.
I'd forgotten how shrill and shouty the ads are (I rarely watch TV these days).
It's all about ram raids and the cost of living – giving the people what they want.
Hipkins' answer on Taiwan was freakin good and well weighted.
It was so good Luxon understood and quickly agreed. Would've been great if Luxon answered first, he would've fucked it up for sure.
I'm waiting for jessica@6pm.news to ask how often the candidates masturbate…….this is the worst leaders debate I have ever seen…….
Hipkins is quite good. They're both doing the gladiator bullshit, but Luxon is doing far more playing the man not the ball. Hipkins seems better at explaining policy, probably because Labour have actual policy. Luxon is obviously well schooled at evasion.
Gotta say, for all the resources, this is underwhelming.
The Working Group does a way better, if a tad more chaotic, job. Without state funding, as you will be told if you have a look.
Tonight there is a review of these two by a panel of political pundits at 9pm. On the usual platforms.
In the quickfire, it shows how closely aligned these two are.
Agree. I've been pretty underwhelmed. Both seem to be PR-polished to within an inch of their lives.
There was a great cartoon after a Reagan-Mondale debate in the 1984 US election. Captioned something like: "Mondale gets ruthless". The speech bubbles were:
Reagan: "Flubble bubble flubble mumble …'
Mondale: "I respect the President …"
This feels like that. Given a chance to destroy, Hipkins acts nice. The only answer about Luxon's leadership should be "let's face it, he's not up to the job and we all know it".
But that wouldn't be respectful, so the BS gets a free pass. The public will pay the real price, not Hipkins.
Good point.
I'm reminded of Oliver Sacks famous account of The President's (Reagan's) speech. (Although, Christopher Luxon probably has much less acting ability than what Reagan had.)
https://www.salon.com/2015/08/31/oliver_sacks_brilliant_essential_lesson_what_the_legendary_science_writer_taught_us_about_politics_the_human_mind/
Luxon standing head and shoulders above Chippy whom seems unable to point to any successes his government has achieved while Luxon clearly communication a path forward for New Zealand.
Well then perhaps you might like to answer the question how often you masturbate…..
No body there?
More frequently than Labour Ministers loose their Cabinet position but less frequently than Ram Raids are committed in Labour's New Zealand.
Phew.. not as frequent as Luxons verbal ejaculations then……
What makes you think that there were no ram raids or crime under National when 30 police stations closed down due to a lack of funding and that no cabinet minister lost their job? Nick Smith and Judith Collins did for starters.
Nobody is born a ram raider, or a murderer – there but for the grace of God…
Imho, Mr Nobody is, and will be pretty comfortable – up the "bottom feeders"!
The Side Eye’s Two New Zealands: The Table
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/16-08-2022/the-side-eyes-two-new-zealands-the-table
After growing up in Mangere, living in South Auckland over 30 years and currently living in a suburb with significant social disparity your belief is 100% wrong.
Poverty is 100% a major motivator crime and addressing that will without doubt positively effect the crime statistics. However after six years of the current government:
Crime is worse,
Poverty is worse,
Health is worse,
Social cohesion is worse,
Cost of living is worse
New Zealand not only deserves better it requires better and this Government has proved itself as incapable of delivering.
Apologies for my incorrect assumption about where you currently sit at 'The Table' – up the "bottom feeders", and all the best for the future.
Don't know about "deserves", but 100% agree with "needs" – whether our next govt is capable of delivering reduced inequality/cost of living/crime, and improved public health and social cohesion, time will tell.
Evidence?
And what policies of National are designed to address poverty?
You tell me, I'm not a National Supporter. I thought this thread was about who performed best in last night's debate between the Labour Party and National Party and as I said last night in my opinion:
All claims without supporting evidence.
And without reference to the global circumstance – both pandemic and global cost pressures on all nations.
Next you will be arguing the fact that we need air to stay alive is a claim, but to hopefully to satisfy you:
[really excessive number of links deleted]
The most frightening thing about all of those headlines (I found while putting them together at least) is how many are from this year alone.
New Zealand is BROKEN and the staus quo hasn't worked and
[evidence on TS means an explanation in your own words, backed up by selected and relevant quotes and links or references. Long lists of links with no context are considered spam and tend to piss of the moderators because your comment gets caught in the spam filter and we have to edit then release it manually – weka]
mod note.
Are all nation states broken when there are global problems?
None, SPC.
There well may have been, but what ever the statistic was it wasn't 2 per day.
There are 2 ram raids per day in Te Puke? That could be Chris Luxon trying to park his black Merc and/or his [wife’s] Tesla or maybe his 50cc scooter. He must be holidaying there a lot based on those ‘stats’.
There are? I wouldn't know as I don't live there and would have thought that 2 ram raids per day referred to in last night's debate was nationwide. But considering crime has reached the point that the PM security team has to prevent him walking down main streets in Christchurch in the middle of the day as discussed with Megan Wood this morning on the radio perhaps that is correct.
Link? Crime or citizens abusing a politician?
Newstalk ZB – 20230920
Hmm you listen to Hosking?
The poster child of nodding RW bobbleheads uugh ……enough said
I try to catch ĥis interviews with the PM (Tuesday) and the MPs on Wednesday mornings as they coincide with when I run my girls to school.
Otherwise usually listen spotify/podcasts/audio books. Really enjoying re-listening to World War Z currently.
Did "the PM security team” really “prevent him walking down main streets in Christchurch in the middle of the day…", or is that just spin?
Is that you Mike?
The problem with your factual assertions is that they are fact-free and amount to nothing more than RW talking points. In other words, you are trolling with made up BS reckons, not facts.
I note that another Mod has already dealt with your other comment (https://thestandard.org.nz/the-great-debate/#comment-1968904) that was a litany of RW spin. Just as well because I had another inconvenient piece of information for you to digest:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/498394/the-falsehood-christopher-luxon-was-allowed-to-repeat-in-the-leaders-debate
Count yourself lucky that I had a busy day today and weka got to you first.
It has already been acknowledged in the past that ram raids were not singled out as a crime.
They were merely grouped in with robberies for statistical purposes.
Sorry, no evidential link to that.
It then became a political football that National picked up and ran with.
No one tackled them so they scored with it and are still scoring with it.
Dear Labour Party strategists. When you tell Chippy to talk about climate change get him to own the NZ Steel deal which will effectively take 300,000 cars off the road for a pretty cheap price. It is not a negative. It should be celebrated. It is what an activist Government does.
Two things stood out for me.
Both Chrises bought their first house at 24. That's the sound of everyone under 30 banging their head in the TV screen.
TVNZ's Ipsos poll found that 50% of New Zealanders don't think climate change will affect them. Fucking hell.
I just heard Fran O'Sullivan over at the Daily blog's working group panel say "New Zealander's are past egalitarian values .Now they just want to get ahead "
And that folks, is what 40 years of neoliberalism delivers .Getting ahead by trampling on the heads of those underfoot.
Communities fractured into dog eat dog , peak individualism
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/09/19/9pm-live-tonight-freeview-200-the-working-group-taxpayers-union-post-leaders-debate-analysis-live-from-backbenchers-pub/
God I hope you are wrong.
What binds us as a country?
Get ahead? By owning property, creating nothing, doing nothing memorable or useful or valuable for the community. Work for a multi-national company overseas, come back and buy a couple of houses. Trade them up and realise their untaxed capital gains.
Spit on the third of the country renting.
Well I hope I'm wrong too.
I hope we can get our mojo back, but the divisions over covid don't make me that hopeful
I will be tempted to break my sobriety when that evil women shuffles off this mortal coil. Ruth Richarson's "Mother of all Budgets" caused immense societal damage which the country is continuing to suffering from.
I think the Daily Blog post debate panel is really worth watching. Bryce Edwards, Fran, Simon Wilson and Jordan Williams. Comperes Bomber and Damien Grant.
Some how what that panel had to say and how they operated sums up NZ politics for me.
BTW I think Fran wasn't necessarily endorsing that people should concentrate on getting ahead rather than egalitarianism. I think it was just her perspective on current attitutes.
I also interpreted "getting ahead" as meaning not merely scrapping by. But of course Fran is the only one who confirm what she meant.
I found it interesting that she called out what you are not allowed to talk about nowadays without facing cancellation. She mentioned cogovernance, gender and the Listener 7
Simon Wilson is more an activist than a journalist and of course he is allowed to be.
Hipkins did so in partnership with his brother.
There has always been an advantage to those able to work with others – we once had the co-operative society to assist with this and the trustee bank (profits back into community) – but we have allowed banking rules/regulation and corporate monopoly to form the neo-liberal order – the people as wage slave to corporate profit (suppressed unions and migration to enable greater employer profit is now the norm) doing the best for themselves.
Luxon's game was to dominate every conversation and have the last word. It didn't matter if he was talking nonsense – which he frequently was – just so long as he spoke the most often and the loudest.
Remind you of any particular physical activity Anne…….
Lets just say it as it is, National and Luxon are just a facsimilie of the real deal…comes on strong but somewhat faded and illegible in the end……
Where is Brian Edwards when you need him….maybe Jack is the real deal…stuff it i’m off to bed….
So …
Didn't watch it all, but from what I saw – it wasn't a debate. Not in any real sense. How many topics were covered, 50+? (including all the silly quickfire nonsense).
If you can't say A therefore B but C because D … then there's no debate, no depth. You might as well just say "Petrol prices, boo! Climate change, boring!"
Spinners will say their guy won, but let's face it, we all lost. Treated like game show idiots. F*ck TVNZ.
well put. It was stupid really, what a waste.
Hipkins missed a few chances to deliver decisive blows to Luxon on the issue of how ACT threatens to divide New Zealanders over the Treaty of Waitangi and abandon the small gains we have made on climate change. He made only one reference to the right wing coalition of nutters that I picked up and it was far too polite. Luxon was very vulnerable on these issues but Hipkins let him off too lightly.
Hipkins needs to get down and dirty in the next debate. Graphically describe how the NACTs want to dismember the public service and lift house prices and interest rates to new levels.
He failed on a really basic principle. Do not passively accept your opponents' framing. And in this case, the moderator's framing, which was more or less the same thing.
But he's done this since he became PM, so nothing new.
His game now will be to try and avoid blame for the loss.
Sure members of his team let him down, but he’s chosen to accept that we can cut back the public service and he’s consistently signaled that much climate change work is to be defunded.
In part he’s made National’s case for them.
The Chris & Chris Show successfully broke the chronic tedium of the campaign so well done TVNZ. The surprise winner was Cunliffe. First time ever, he didn't come across as totally clueless. In fact, everything he said was good, so life after politics has worked a miraculous transformation.
Jack Tame was as good too. Hipkins has to ditch the worried look but I like his new fast-talking style. Luxon oscillated between the usual Nat roboticism and authenticity; still not much substance there, flunked a few credibility challenges too. If Hipkins can somehow get a gravitas transplant, game on!
The PM's problem is Labour's dead cat bounce potential. Given their record, what can secure a bounce? Luxon's helping him by faking it on finance. Anyone with half a brain watching knows refusing to release his professional advice is a sign of weakness.
Apart from the contention over misrepresentation over the value of Nationals tax cuts, the heat was over dealing with disadvantage in accessing health care, assistance to landlords and plans to reduce emissions.
Hipkins was disadvantaged by the lack of questions over wages, working conditions and National being dependent of making savings to government.
Luxon did make it known that National intended to use external providers in health (whanau ora and maybe private), education (charter schools are back) and housing (including supply of “state/public housing” – reducing that from the waiting list). Mentioned talking to iwi about devolution of delivery.
As to making savings … the issue of National standing by its policies and not adopting those of ACT to afford its tax cuts …also not covered
Probably a win for Luxon on the basis he didnt shit the bed.
I think the stand out winners were the audience. Were they real? Just asking for a friend.
Chris Hopkins was great.
Jessica whatshername was dressed to go to a cocktail party. Let Pollyanna go on way too far.
Didn’t address the BIG QUESTION. Show us your costings
. Hipkins by far. Showed empathy, caring and passion for New Zealand/Aotearoa.
Luxon is a slimy turd and needs to be flushed.
"Hipkins by far. Showed empathy, caring and passion for New Zealand/Aotearoa"
Yes.
Not fair really that Chris Hipkins had to compete against Chris Luxon and Jessica MM. She cut off our Chris to prevent him bringing substance to the non-debate. Bah!
JMM cut Hipkins off before he was able to respond to Luxon's 'mistruths'. Yes, she cut off Luxon too, but Chippy wasn't mistruthing in the first place.
All actual political discussion aside… what was with the disturbing hand choreography? Both Jessica Much and Jack Tame were gesticulating like lovelorn Italian men in a stage play…a new visual language I don't understand?
They all do it now. It must be part of the training curriculum. It annoys the hell out of me. I have yelled at them [via the TV] many a time but they still do it. 🙁
Best comment on the debate. By George!!
Hipkins had to dominate because he is so far behind. ODDS are $5.50 versus $1.15.
He did not dominate. next weeks poll should be interesting
National's tax plan has blown enormous holes. Economists have said it doesn't add up and have called it bullshit. John Key said it won't work. Luxon parrots his lines but is evasive and looking dodgy by refusing to release the costings and you don't think that will affect Luxon and the National Party's polling, fisiani?
Hoping like hell that the next debate will be moderated by Kim Hill. Whatever happens will be the truth. All this crap being shovelled up to us by RW ahem! Journalists is just plain arrogant bull faeces. Time for rich people to start looking at us as the enemy. We are the people who have created their wealth. We can also create their poverty if we so wish. Tread carefully, for we tread on your dreams.
Isn't Jack Tame doing the next one?
I was out tonight, so I didn't see the debate. Looking at the comments here, it seems that it would be a struggle to put together a highlights package.
consensus seems to be that it was boring.
There were no new policy surprises, and nor were there any new arguments (i.e. that we hadn't heard before) in support of existing policies. It was all very predictable.
Sorry NZ farmers you are not the most efficient in the world or the most efficient way to produce food taking climate change into consideration and just repeating it doesn’t affect what we will have to pay to meet our Paris obligations.
disappointing that Luxon was allowed to get away with that one.
Yes, TVNZ choose to use their senior autocue reader, a pretty useless moderator.
We deserve better, Campbell or Kim, Kim's retiring she would be ideal IMO so unlikely we will see her.
I didn't watch – the minute I heard Jessica Mutch-McKay – the ultimate concierge gallery journalist – was going to moderate I knew the debate was going to be an exercise in political kabuki. I also predicted that the outcome would be scripted performance cynicism from our utterly predictable dire pundit class – Tova was quick to not let me down this morning. To me, the unfortunate meta is Hipkins seems incapable in igniting any skerrick of tribal passion in Labour leaning voters. Expecting people to vote just to keep the other lot out isn't going to be enough. People need a reason to want to vote for you as well.
Curiously bloodless affair and I can't remember any specific lines.
"You had 6 years" (Luxon on any topic) and "that's not true" (Hipkins on most things Luxon said on most topics – beginning with the lie that families with children got $250 extra a fortnight from tax cuts – it's only $25 a week each individual and $50 a week for a couple – the rest only occurs if there is a claim for a rebate on child care for under 5's).
Yawn.
Yeah labour going to lose to keep control of the left.
Predictable as its a joke on you.
I didn't see the debate. But I have seen a few snippets and read various commentaries on it.
My thoughts are that Luxon won by not losing. I haven't even seen any commentators from any political perspective claiming that Chippy wiped the floor with Luxon. Most I have seen call it a draw or a slight win for Luxon.
Many swing voters don’t really know much about Luxon. So, seeing him performing OK may have reassured them that Luxon is safe to vote for. Whereas, people already know Chippy quite well. So, they probably didn’t learn much new from him.
I think the roles are reversed from last election where Collins needed to destroy Ardern to have a chance of turning the tide. That didn't happen then. That is what Chippy needs now. But, it didn't happen last night. And, I don't think the style of either of them means it is going to happen in upcoming debates either.
If I was in Labour's shoes I would be quite worried I think.
I'm not in Labour's shoes, and I am quite worried about potholes, smoke and mirrors.
Nats could make up some of the projected shortfall in revenue from their 15% foreign buyer tax/hoax by raising it to 25% – like they raised GST to part-fund tax cuts.
In other news, frauds and scams are on the rise…
Reminded me of 2017 where Ardern just had to not lose badly against Bill English. Anything close would be seen as a good outing, and that feels like the case here too.
I dared a few seconds of the 'show' switched off lest I start breaking things
In my Leaders Debate I would have a proper mediator and a decent chunk of time set aside for an actual debate like the Economy, or Housing, or Cost of Living.
Speak for 2 minutes each outlining your position
Then 10 minutes for discussion, "What would your party to to fix Economy or….."
The mediator would not be allowed to cut off the speaker.
Somewhere this morning I read where someone had tracked last nights timing:
Luxon had 47% time.
Hipkins had 32% time
JMM had 25% of the time
And they also logged the number of words each spoke.
haven't read this properly yet but some good graphics on language and time.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2023/498355/hipkins-vs-luxon-the-first-leaders-debate-by-the-numbers
Thanks Weka. The data was based on the words spoken.
Luxon 43%
Hipkins 31%
JessMM 24%
Sounds like Hippy's heart just isn't in it. Maybe he doesn't disagree strongly enough with Luxie.
Gabby, your comment is inane and intellectually lazy. If you watched the debate, you would be fully aware that Jessica MM repeatedly let Luxon talk at length without interruption, yet repeatedly spoke over Hipkins to prevent him from completing his responses.
A notable example of Jessica MM cutting off Hipkins yet allowing Luxon to speak extensively was when the topic of the health system and doctor training was raised- she let Luxon rave on about a pie in the sky, grandiose idea of a new medical school at Waikato University, but when Hipkins replied that the current medical schools can cater to increased doctor training numbers, Jessica MM talked over him, didn’t let him elaborate, and cut him off.
She also jumped from topic to topic, not allowing Hipkins to answer in depth. Jessica MM at one point commented that Luxon was doing really well- this is totally biased, fawning, and unprofessional.
How about you do better with your comments.