The Sensible Centrist

120 comments on “The Sensible Centrist ”

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1. Kinoy001 1

   18 August 2008 at 11:55 am

   I think that she wants to be John Keys Press Secretary.

   What do you have to do in NZ to get a journalist that gives a fair story for both sides? not a one sided approach that the majority of the media are doing at present.

   I get sick of her political editorials… and also Mr Espiner at the press… John key could of written his boring blogs…….

   Over them
2. Jasper 2

   18 August 2008 at 12:00 pm

   Kinoy

   To get a fair story for both sides, you need to get a couple of backers and resurrect “The Standard” as a national newspaper provided by the workers.
   We have no national paper in New Zealand which is contributing to the intelligence, or lack of, of many.
   Bob Jones is always partial to a bit of independence. Perhaps he may stump up the cash for a news paper (as opposed to an enterpaper?)
3. Steve Pierson 3

   18 August 2008 at 12:05 pm

   Kinoy001. Yeah, it’s a tough one. I think of the six big media outlets (Herald, Dompost, Press, Tv1, Tv3, RadioNZ) you would say 4 of the political editors are quite clearly of the rightwing and, one is leftwing, and one probably left leaning.. in fact, if you look at the list I made, they’re in order of most bias to right of the political editor through to most to the left of the political editor.

   I think, generally, radioNZ does best in trying to be balanced because they have heritage to live up to. The Herald would easily be the least balanced.

   My suggestion would be this – you can’t expect to get truly unbiased coverage, so read basic coverage in the newspapers for info and for analysis go to openly biased sources then weigh their arguments. In some ways that’s a better thing than expecting to find the ‘truth’ somewhere, because you’re encouraged to read critically and come up with your own conclusions.
4. Phil 4

   18 August 2008 at 12:08 pm

   That sensible cetrist looks, and sounds, like Peter Dunne.
5. Lew 5

   18 August 2008 at 12:20 pm

   There’s no such thing as `fair’ journalism by this measure. Partisans of both sides always feel aggrieved by coverage which is critical of them or theirs. What the Standardistas tend to feel is fair and reasonable, the KBR tends to think is incipient Communist Nanny-Statism expressed through the Librul Meeja, and what the KBR thinks is fair the Standardistas will tend to see as the encircling tendrils of transnational capital suppressing the truth and backing those who’ll best line their pocketses.

   So while I don’t agree with Steve’s assessment of the major news outlets’ political leanings (this is based on gut rather than analysis, and both sides tend to protest too much here, I think), I can’t agree enough with his point about reading around sources. This at least gives you a reasonably wide range of information upon which to base your ideological judgements.

   L
6. Phil 6

   18 August 2008 at 12:24 pm

   Who would have thought it! Steve thinks the least biased source of news is the one that, by his own estimation, is the most left wing…

   Regardless, I agree completely with you last para.
7. burt 7

   18 August 2008 at 12:37 pm

   Can we get an opinion poll to add the “should we blend kittens” to the poll questions. Then we could deny we asked that question and pretend that it’s a media beatup and that we never planned to base our kitten blending policy on opinion polls?

   The big issue is: Will blending kittens help Helen Clark win a forth term – if the answer is NO then who cares about kittens there are more important issues such as how to cover Winston’s ass for him.
8. Inventory2 8

   18 August 2008 at 12:44 pm

   A bit of irony there Steve – you accuse someone from the media of bias, then trot out a cartoon which is even more biased!
9. Robinsod 9

   18 August 2008 at 12:46 pm

   Yo Burt! – You hear that whistling sound? That’s the point going right over your head. Again. I know you won’t take this seriously but I really do think you need to take a test for aspergers as you seem to continually pick up the wrong cues in your social interactions.

   I thought you were being willful about it but I’m starting to think it might be a problem with the old noggin. Seriously.

   Edit: IV2 – would you care to explain why the cartoon is biased? I mean I might be a little slow on the metatext and all but I just ain’t seeing this bias you speak of…
10. Steve Pierson 10

    18 August 2008 at 12:52 pm

    Inv2. How’s the cartoon biased? It’s just an example of the fallacy of being a ‘moderate’. Unless you think the kitten killer is rightwing and the anti-kitten killer is leftwing, and why would you assume that?

    Phil. I said Brent Edwards is the most obviously leftwing of the political editors (but I think he does try to be reasonably balanced, alas do the Espiners and Garner). Political editors are not responsible for the entire poltiical bias of the organsiation they work for, so I didn’t say i thnk radioNZ is the most leftwing outlet (and such things are relative anyway).

    Close reading, you should try it.
11. Billy 11

    18 August 2008 at 12:53 pm

    Hey Steve, you are absolutely determined that this “scandal” (as you insist on calling it daily) is going to be trhe circuit breaker.

    Only problem is, repeating it all the time is not going to make it so.
12. Robinsod 12

    18 August 2008 at 1:35 pm

    Billy – Where the hell have you been?! go write something on our blog!
13. Quoth the Raven 13

    18 August 2008 at 3:35 pm

    I wouldn’t go as far as saying Espiner’s reasonably balanced. Garner maybe. He comes off much better on his blog. Espiner just seems like a tory boy to me.
14. Rex Widerstrom 14

    18 August 2008 at 3:48 pm

    Jasper suggests:

    To get a fair story for both sides, you need to get a couple of backers and resurrect “The Standard’ as a national newspaper provided by the workers.

    If you’re suggesting that such a newspaper would, within it’s pages, provide the balance you seek, you’re barking mad. If, however (and I suspect this to be the case) you’re suggesting that by adding such a newspaper into the overall mix you’d come a step closer to achieving balance across the entire media market then I couldn’t agree more.

    Regardless of the fact that most journalists (and remember, there are thousands in NZ, not just the ones who have their own TV shows or blog on newspaper sites) strive for objectivity, the proprietors have long since given away any pretence. Most are not based in NZ, own media only as an investment (with no acknowledgement of its place in society and any responsibility owed to society as a result) and see it as no different to any other business.

    They’re therefore inclined – overtly or subtley – to influence the content in what they see as their best interests. And well they might – they own the media outlet and should be able to do as they please.

    Where it falls down is that our media still pretend to objectivity, as though we’re too immature as a readership / viewership / listenership to accept the complex reality and filter our media accordingly.

    Yet UK readers have known for decades where the sympathies of the Guardian, the Sun, the Independent et al reside. They seem to be able to have an intelligent political discourse without needing to believe, for instance, that the Guardian will ever have anything positive to say about the Tories.

    So why can’t we just stop pretending? Lets have The Standard. Let’s have Fox News NZ. Let’s be honest about our media and have them be honest about themselves. And we’ll be better off as a result.
15. Felix 15

    18 August 2008 at 3:52 pm

    Espiner and Garner – the tories say they’re both lefties, the lefties complain that they’re both tories.
16. Billy 16

    18 August 2008 at 3:56 pm

    He’s quite handsome, that Espiner. In a sort of a scale-model of a human being sort of a way.

    ‘Sod, I have been very busy. People keep wanting me to do work for them and I am too poor to say no.
17. Kinoy001 17

    18 August 2008 at 4:59 pm

    Interesting about the political editors….

    I thought that Espiner from the press was left leaning? hmmmm

    Its tought… i find that scoop.co.nz gives quite a balanced look…

    Can not stand the herald and all there right leaning dribble…
18. dad4justice 18

    18 August 2008 at 5:23 pm

    “i find that scoop.co.nz gives quite a balanced look ”

    A scoop of horseshit or the arse wipe newspaper? Money or the fag said the balanced monkey.
19. r0b 19

    18 August 2008 at 5:33 pm

    dad4justice

    dad

    dada

    Dadaism

    Coincidence? I think not.
20. Lew 20

    18 August 2008 at 5:42 pm

    r0b: !top to bottom run it’d if appropriate more much been have would comment That

    L
21. Inventory2 21

    18 August 2008 at 5:42 pm

    Steve P said “Inv2. How’s the cartoon biased? It’s just an example of the fallacy of being a ‘moderate’. Unless you think the kitten killer is rightwing and the anti-kitten killer is leftwing, and why would you assume that?”

    Maybe my specs need updating Steve, but the subject of the cartoon does bear a not-insignificant resemblance to Mr Key. Or is that just a coincidence?

    [it’s an American cartoon, Inv2. See the elephant? That’s the symbol of the Republican party.. cartoons before and after have the donkey representing the democratcs. Tinfoil hat time, methinks. SP]
22. Felix 22

    18 August 2008 at 6:14 pm

    r0b – on dada4justice: I think the comments are becoming more lyrical. I’d thought of them as a form of avant-garde poetry but comments like the one above feel more like something that should be sung (perhaps by a young Chris Matthews?)
23. dad4justice 23

    18 August 2008 at 6:21 pm

    The livestock in the cartoons do resemble members of the Labour caucus. The extremely large one, a mad bird and a sneaky cat.
24. r0b 24

    18 August 2008 at 6:33 pm

    Lew – heh!

    Felix – Matthews – I’ll look out for him…
25. Billy 25

    18 August 2008 at 6:34 pm

    I am a poet who likes bananas.
26. Phil 26

    18 August 2008 at 6:46 pm

    Back to the OP, I always thoguht a sensible centrist could best be described with the ‘two cows’ analogy…

    You have two cows.

    One of your neighbours thinks you should milk them, the other says you should send them to the freezing works.

    As a sensible centrist, you chop both cows in half, sending the bottom halves to the works, and milking the top halves
27. Robinsod 27

    18 August 2008 at 6:52 pm

    Billy – I’d prefer it if you were a poet that liked making blog posts!

    Oh and r0b? Dad is a situationalist not a dadaist (they are very closely related though). I think he is art…
28. Monty 28

    18 August 2008 at 6:55 pm

    You guys are getting sader and more desperate by the day. Attacking John Key is obviously not working (despite your efforts) so now you need to divert attention to a bias media.

    So the media are going to be to blame for looking after their self interest and wanting to build a relationship with th enext PM – smart move I would say. for 12 years Helen has always tried to be best friends with the media and they have faithfully believed and hung on her every word. A friend (actually a staunch Labour supporter) said to me that the media are nothing but a pack of whores and will go where the story is and where the interest is.

    Now watch the media dump Helen and the rest of the Labour caucas now that the party is over and divert their attention to the new fresh and likeable future PM (and we do not mean Phil Goff)
29. Billy 29

    18 August 2008 at 7:02 pm

    By my count I have made two of the last three posts on the blog. And very deeply considered they were too…
30. lprent 30

    18 August 2008 at 7:03 pm

    Monty: You’re just being silly, or have a very convenient memory (or possibly early onset Alzheimer’s) .

    The writers here have always commented on the media and often on particular people in the media or particular stories. It is almost a staple. The reason why – well read our About.

    Why “The Standard’?
    The Standard newspaper – from where our masthead comes – was founded by labour movement activists in the 1930s. They used it as a vehicle to share their views with a broader audience – a perspective they felt the mainstream media was representing poorly. We think the same is true today.

    What part of the highlighted section is too hard for your brain to follow?
31. Bill 31

    18 August 2008 at 7:42 pm

    Iprent.
    ‘scuse my ignorance…what section of the labour movement founded the original ‘Standard’?
32. Monty 32

    18 August 2008 at 7:45 pm

    Personal attacks are the MO for the Standard Authors. Lynn – please be considerate and do not talk about the early on-set of Alzhiemers – I am close to someone who is this unfortunate – and I would not wish it on anyone to see their life being destroyed.

    Not even Clark)

    it just makes me laugh the way you cry that some reporter may be close to National. Well you leftards are going to be very depressed on elecion night – and then the left will be ignored as you will be irrelevant –

    [lprent: Point taken about the Alzhiemers. But you see my point? It is one of the reasons that this blog site was setup. To criticize the media is part of our founding rationale. ]
33. Bill 33

    18 August 2008 at 7:46 pm

    S’ok. Found it. Hardly the voice of labour. A voice masquerading?
34. dad4justice 34

    18 August 2008 at 7:50 pm

    Did the “feral inbreds” from the West Coast start the Labour movement?
    Miners unite together we fight !!
35. Anita 35

    18 August 2008 at 7:54 pm

    Bill,

    According to Te Puna it was put out by the New Zealand Worker Print. and Pub. Co from 1935 to 1959.

    I’m not sure that link will stick around, in case it doesn’t the link to the search page should last.
36. Draco TB 36

    18 August 2008 at 7:56 pm

    Well, IV2, this is the cartoon before it and this is the cartoon after it. So it would be my guess that it’s just a coincidence.
37. r0b 37

    18 August 2008 at 8:11 pm

    Oh and r0b? Dad is a situationalist not a dadaist

    Oh Drat. Boy I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve made that mistake!
38. Bill 38

    18 August 2008 at 8:12 pm

    Anita,
    the link I got through google to a CTU page said The Standard was a Labour Party newspaper, which was only ever a strand within the labour movement. Anyway, I was curious.
39. Anita 39

    18 August 2008 at 8:17 pm

    Bill,

    Now you’ve got me all curious, I will try to get to the National Library this week and have a look 🙂
40. Brett Dale 40

    18 August 2008 at 8:22 pm

    What a very weak political cartoon, why don’t you guys trying getting some from slate or something.
41. Bill 41

    18 August 2008 at 8:30 pm

    Here’s the quote from a speech reproduced on the ctu site by Peter Franks in 2007 to the CTU on the FoL

    “The Standard, the Labour Party’s newspaper, said that with the formation of the FOL, workers had ‘a Federation in which they can repose all their hopes the policy of the future must be to co-operate fully, actively and continuously with the Government.'”
42. Steve Pierson 42

    18 August 2008 at 8:33 pm

    Brett. The cartoon simply illustrates what I’m calling the ‘moderate fallacy’. There are good cartoons on slate and if you want them on a nz blog you can put them on your own one.
43. Steve Pierson 43

    18 August 2008 at 8:37 pm

    Anita. I hear there are old copies of The Standard in the Parl library basement.. seems they go from being very political, tracts from Marx etc at the start, to mostly sports by the end… ah, the opiate of the masses.
44. Anita 44

    18 August 2008 at 8:44 pm

    SP,

    National Library definitely has some, and they’re really friendly and useful, so they seem like a good place to start 🙂 I recommend the National Library to everyone! Their catalogue is great, their staff are great, they get a real buzz out of helping people find things. Currently my favourite reference library.
45. Kinoy001 45

    18 August 2008 at 9:46 pm

    Higherstandard… go start your own rightie blog and stop being annoying here…

    I thought that if you were to get a QANTAS media award for journalism that you would have to demonstrate that you actually have some journalism skill… im pretty sure that the majority dont….

    Tracy and Audrey should just ask the nats Press sec to write their editorials from now… or shock horror they probaly already give them the bullet points…
46. burt 46

    18 August 2008 at 10:26 pm

    So National Library probably has copies of the standard and the archives restrict archaeological records from Waipoua Forest till 2063.

    Bananas anyone?

    Oh, Robinsod. I took you seriously, diagnosed myself via the net and self medicated myself with some things I found in the back of my grandmothers medicine cabinet. I’m feeling much better now. You are indeed a wise and intelligent fellow.
47. Robinsod 47

    18 August 2008 at 10:31 pm

    You are indeed a wise and intelligent fellow.

    Dr. Robinsod concurs.
48. Shuddup ewes 48

    18 August 2008 at 10:59 pm

    The ‘sod is a bad doc. He told me to rub the lotion on my skin “or else it gets the hose again”. Hippocratic oath my arse.
49. travellerev 49

    19 August 2008 at 7:09 am

    In addition to what Rex has to say about the New Zealand media and their “objectivity” I would say; If most of us agree that the NZ media are a sad excuse for the news and information givers they should be it is our job to find out what the hell is really happening and pass that on to whoever wants to hear. We have a huge source of information through the internet.

    I find through my blog that there is a huge need for News and Information. At this moment with the Georgia crisis I even have readers from a Russian forum trying to find out what the hell is going on over there.

    By the way, just some information, what is not really told in the mainstream media or only at the end of a story is the fact that the attack on South Ossetia was not an attack to take back Georgian Territory but a murderous attack on mostly Russian civilians with the help of American trainers and mercenaries. In other words it was an open provocation to Russia. Just in case there are people here who think that Georgia was the victim.

    Sorry, I know that this is not related to the thread but it makes me so god damn angry to read the NZ Heralds pro American drivel about the bad Ruskies starting the Cold war all over again. And gullible kiwis believing it as usual.
50. dad4justice 50

    19 August 2008 at 8:13 am

    Talking a bloody cold day and war. I spotted a red electioneer mannequin in town. It continually screeched National and USA very bad in a deep voice, then in an angelic voice frothed comrade Putin and Labour very good.
    Did it breach the EFA?
    I couldn’t find a rock big enough to shut it up.
51. Ari 51

    19 August 2008 at 9:47 am

    Unless you think the kitten killer is rightwing and the anti-kitten killer is leftwing, and why would you assume that?

    You know, some of us have read the site that said comic is from. Others simply recognise that the elephant is the symbol of the Republican Party 😉
52. travellerev 52

    19 August 2008 at 10:24 am

    Jeez dad,

    Your getting worse by the day, nay by the hour. Have you thought of checking your self in and getting some therapy, per chance?

    I have absolulty no problem with Americans, indeed I count many of them as my heroes and friends and I know for a fact that many are deeply ashamed about their Governments conduct. Among them many ex-Republicans and ex-(double)Bush voters.

    You should reassess your knee jerk reaction with regards to your prejudice against Russia. I lived in Europe during the Cold war and it was not a good thing. You can trust me on that and to see US army trainers in Georgia training Georgian troops and taunting the big bear into an attack so they can trigger a new Cold war is definitely very unpleasant to me and to most Europeans.

    If Russia wanted to extend it’s control over Europe all it has to do is close the gas and oil lines to Europe and it would be over for Europe.

    In fact because of Georgia’s presidents, the unstable Saakasvilli, attack on
    South Ossetia Russia now has control over the Caspian basin with its huge oil and gas resources.

    I guess Saaskasvilli’s puppet masters didn’t think the Russians would react the way that they did. If the Russians had played dead to the US supported Saaskasvilli it would have been the US who had control over the Caspian basin.

    By the way, screeching in a deep voice, Huh?
53. dad4justice 53

    19 August 2008 at 10:28 am

    ” Have you thought of checking your self in and getting some therapy, per chance?”

    By the way Tulip, ever thought of going back to your OWN COUNTRY?
54. Vanilla Eis 54

    19 August 2008 at 11:01 am

    Steady on Dad, what makes you more entitled to be here than her?
55. dad4justice 55

    19 August 2008 at 11:07 am

    I was made in New Zealand and she is entitled to do what she wants, but tell her if she starts talking “therapy” then she can be expected to be shredded too fucking pieces. Dry the powder girls, diddums !
56. Vanilla Eis 56

    19 August 2008 at 11:26 am

    Tell her yourself, she’s a big girl. I’m just sick of the rampant xenophobia in NZ that says that ‘we’ deserve to be here and ‘they’ don’t. Carry that line of thought back to the only conclusion available and you can bugger off too.
57. randal 57

    19 August 2008 at 11:53 am

    if that is all that someone has is to say they were born here then they are more to be pitied than laughed at
58. Rob 58

    19 August 2008 at 11:55 am

    Very interesting Talk back today and the Furore over sex education in high schools. A woman rang into say that her daughter was in a mixed class (boys & girls) of 14 year olds. Where they were told to practise Anal sex if they didn’t want to use a condom. They were given a Ministry of Health hand out that explained all the terms for them like Anal Sex rimming etc. Just as Eves Bite says the Social Engineering of this Government is huge and they wont even let our kids be kids with out trying to gender bender their poor impressionable minds. I wonder if that is the sort of talk you would like for a 14 year old Daughter.

    [lprent: Probably an urban myth. I’ll treat it that way until there is a reference to something more authoritative than I heard on talkback. In the meantime it is just flame starting as far as I’m concerned. ]
59. dad4justice 59

    19 August 2008 at 12:56 pm

    I would expect nothing more from you randal…..you have a phobia for any sensibility. How sad…………..
60. dad4justice 60

    19 August 2008 at 1:01 pm

    [deleted]

    [lprent: Dad!! Getting a bit over the top without a link for substantiation. ]
61. higherstandard 61

    19 August 2008 at 1:10 pm

    r0b

    Are you sure sounds like urban legend or kids making something up to get a rise out of their parents ?

    I sit on the board of a largish public school and there is no way we would allow any such thing to be promoted – if it was the person promoting it would be gone before lunch.
62. Rob 62

    19 August 2008 at 1:33 pm

    higherstandard I agree I thought the board had control over this and had to go out to the community every two years under their charter. However it was all over the airwaves this morning and the woman had been trying to get into see the principal but kept getting fobbed off. The disturbing thing to me was she was reading from a printed Ministry of Health hand out and in the glossary of terms it was very descriptive getting right into rimming etc. My question is do 14 year olds need to know this? Also aren’t we taking all responsibility away from the parents

    [lprent: My question would be – is any of this more than just hearsay. I have a problem with this type of comment. It is unsubstantiated and almost certainly would start some kind of flame war with more hearsay and unsubstantiated counter claims.

    That isn’t what the site is for (see Policy) so I’m pre-empting this ‘discussion and closing it down until someone provides a reasonably valid looking link to something in the news sites. ]
63. lprent 63

    19 August 2008 at 1:36 pm

    That is my thought as well. Personally if it is on talkback radio, then I treat it as urban myth until proven otherwise..
64. dad4justice 64

    19 August 2008 at 1:43 pm

    Lynn, I can assure you, if it’s not “urban myth” then WW3 will start for Labour.
65. Rob 65

    19 August 2008 at 2:03 pm

    Iprent

    I can understand why you would want to shut it down it’s not a very good look. However has already hit other blogs. It went on for about three hours on 1zb this morning will no doubt be on again tomorrow there was a lot of noise about it. I’m sure you can check with 1zb if you want substantiation.

    [lprent: My issue with it is that I think you’re you’re talking about talkback.
    I tend to view that as being at the same level as some of the really bad dog whistle blogs. No one ever bothers to check some of the claims made by listeners. Which is why there is a strong culture in here of requesting links to sources.
    Talkback isn’t such a source because you cannot link to it.
    If it is a news story, then I’d expect that you’d be able to link to a news media site for the story – see one of the ones on the left. ]
66. yl 66

    19 August 2008 at 2:10 pm

    Rob,

    can you please provide a link to the comments that you are making?

    It should not be the job of the reader or the poster to have to look around to find out whether or not what you are saying is correct.

    Saying that other blogs are doing it or, it is on 1zb is not enough.

    You are being either lazy, or lying. Either way you are wasting my time.

    If you are going to say something then back it up. Like most other people here do.

    It is an issue that you have been told about so often.

    If you cant dont comment
67. bill brown 67

    19 August 2008 at 2:13 pm

    What’s this got to do with this thread? Rob (who’s not r0b by the way HS two very different animals) you did this in some other thread – going off on one of your sex-addicted monologues – if you want to channel Ian Wishart, go do it on talk back or one of those other blogs you seem to like, skipping over your posts is irritating me.
68. Rob 68

    19 August 2008 at 2:24 pm

    yl

    Sorry would if I could was on Radio all morning

    [lprent: try http://www.stuff.co.nz or http://www.scoop.co.nz ]
69. r0b 69

    19 August 2008 at 2:33 pm

    higherstandard
    August 19, 2008 at 1:10 pm

    r0b Are you sure sounds like urban legend

    HS – please on no account ever confuse Rob and r0b!
70. Lew 70

    19 August 2008 at 2:37 pm

    I can confirm this was all over Leighton Smith’s show this morning.

    Incidentally, the only bit which is remotely objectionable is the advice to not wear a condom. The rest is just plain old fact, and the sorts of facts that teenagers are better armed with than not.

    L
71. Matthew Pilott 71

    19 August 2008 at 2:37 pm

    Guys Rob does this every time. Kind of like an annoying puppy – he runs out and inds the latest bit of inaccurate bollocks, and comes over here with a typically illiterate ‘interesting that blah blah blah I don’t think this is goid I think that this is bad Labour is bad National is good they are better”.

    It generally takes a bit of research to find out what he’s on about, how he’s got it wrong and whether he’s just confused or downright lying. I’ve decided it’s not worth the effort, but I’m with bill – the constant infantile threadjacking is very annoying. I suggest Rob starts his own blog because this happens most days – then anyone else who finds it ‘interesting’ can comment.
72. yl 72

    19 August 2008 at 2:42 pm

    Rob,

    do not say something if you do not have the ability to back it up.

    The problem with what you do is that you will quite often take your comments out of context and give it a spin that is not there.

    That is why we need to you back up what you are saying.

    As i said earlier if you cant, then dont comment.

    Not to mention the fact that this has nothing to do with the post.

    Go create your own blog, you can fill it with as much factless crap as you want.
73. Lew 73

    19 August 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Look, I’m not one to defend Rob in the general case – but he’s not making this one up. It was a major topic of conversation on Newstalk ZB this morning (everywhere except Christchurch) and the facts as laid out here are much as the writer (the story initially emerged from an email, not a call) laid them out. Whether they’re correct or not is another matter, but as I said, I don’t find the alleged advice at all unreasonable (except for the one thing noted above) so I don’t see why they’d be manufactured. As for the lack of coverage – topics like this come up daily on talkback, and almost none of them make it into the proper news. Nothing to see here.

    L
74. I do not wish to use a username 74

    19 August 2008 at 2:56 pm

    “The disturbing thing to me was she was reading from a printed Ministry of Health hand out and in the glossary of terms it was very descriptive getting right into rimming etc”

    http://www.fpanz.org.nz/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=netgccFecwk%3D&tabid=365&mid=815

    Funded by MoH. No reference to anal sex being safer but does describe rimming.

    [lprent: It is a bloody Family Planning Association leaflet. Is this what they’ve been waffling about? ]
75. Steve Pierson 75

    19 August 2008 at 3:05 pm

    oh noes! rimming! bumsex!! call the fuzz!!!

    I agree with Lew, if is part of sex ed now ” the only bit which is remotely objectionable is the advice to not wear a condom. The rest is just plain old fact, and the sorts of facts that teenagers are better armed with than not.” and it’s realistic to take into account the fact condoms aren’t always used too.
76. Ben R 76

    19 August 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Isn’t this also recommended by evangelicals in the US to preserve themselves?
77. bill brown 77

    19 August 2008 at 3:12 pm

    What, instead of formaldehyde?
78. Ben R 78

    19 August 2008 at 3:16 pm

    “What, instead of formaldehyde?”

    haha. No their status as technical v8rgins.
79. Steve Pierson 79

    19 August 2008 at 3:18 pm

    Ben R. yeah there are groups that say do anal or the ol’ mutual hj to save their technical virginity until marriage.. of course just as many say anal is the devil’s intercourse..

    its also the most common traditional form of birth control, still widey practised as such in africa.
80. bill brown 80

    19 August 2008 at 3:22 pm

    What’s wrong with a kiss, boy? Hmm? Why not start her off with a nice kiss? You don’t have to go leaping straight for the clitoris like a bull at a gate. Give her a kiss, boy

    captcha: special dirty !!! WTF!
81. dad4justice 81

    19 August 2008 at 3:23 pm

    “widey practised as such in africa.”

    Africa and Aids go hand in hand Clinton. But you already know that eh!

    captcha; Aids kills.
82. Lew 82

    19 August 2008 at 3:28 pm

    No comment.

    L

    Captcha: `Dad4justice makes up captchas’ 😉
83. dad4justice 83

    19 August 2008 at 3:30 pm

    Lew, how about getting a life other than being a smarmy noise control officer.Go shut down another playschool party 😉
84. Lew 84

    19 August 2008 at 3:34 pm

    Heh. I heard about that one, too. TBPFH I can see Bob the Builder and the Chicken Dance getting a bit much after a while.

    L
85. dad4justice 85

    19 August 2008 at 3:40 pm

    Yes Lew, Labour have proved to us all they hate children, just look who is gold medalists in child abuse and infanticide? What a sick country 🙁 Sad eh Lew !!! Zero tolerance for noise but abuse is OK – eh bro hehehe !!!
86. Steve Pierson 86

    19 August 2008 at 3:45 pm

    bill brown. brilliant.

    d4j. that’s becuase of unsafe sex practice, not particular modes of sex.
87. Lew 87

    19 August 2008 at 3:46 pm

    I might be intolerant of the Chicken Dance, but you have to admit we’re pretty tolerant of your performance art, D4J.

    L
88. dad4justice 88

    19 August 2008 at 3:51 pm

    Whatever Lew, but the FACT remains that New Zealand has appalling child abuse statistics. You tolerate it, and say you’re proud to be a kiwi. Yeah right !!
89. Rob 89

    19 August 2008 at 3:55 pm

    Steve Great comment Africa birth control hmmm Anal Intercourse 6000 South Africans let alone the rest of Africa a day dying of Aids lets adopt that practise here must be good for all. What a warped sense of values

    [lprent: see Anita’s comment about providing a link. She has provided one that says you must be wrong. ]
90. Steve Pierson 90

    19 August 2008 at 3:55 pm

    D4J. you cross the line when you say a party doesn’t care about kids.
91. randal 91

    19 August 2008 at 3:58 pm

    well d4juice..we tolerate you and you are a big kid
92. Lew 92

    19 August 2008 at 3:59 pm

    d4j: I did neither! In any case, the conclusion that a party hates kids is complete non seqitur from this.

    Perhaps you should stick to the outraged political scat?

    L
93. Vanilla Eis 93

    19 August 2008 at 4:01 pm

    I still don’t understand how this has changed tack from a sensible thread about blending kittens into some nonsense about the chicken dance being child abuse (which it is, by the way).
94. Scribe 94

    19 August 2008 at 4:09 pm

    D4J. you cross the line when you say a party doesn’t care about kids.

    Does saying a party doesn’t care about poor people cross the line, Steve?
95. Ben R 95

    19 August 2008 at 4:12 pm

    “Ministry of Health hand out and in the glossary of terms it was very descriptive getting right into r8mming etc. My question is do 14 year olds need to know this? Also aren’t we taking all responsibility away from the parents”

    Probably not, but your daughter is unlikely to start r1mming because it was in a pamphlet? More likely her boyfriend will be getting his ideas downloading p8rn.
96. Steve Pierson 96

    19 August 2008 at 4:17 pm

    scribe. not when it’s true. d4j’s comment wold be fair if it was about the kidhaters’ party.

    Rob. you’re a moron, teaching people to have safe sex, educating them and not ignoring how people behave in the real world does not increase, HIV. You may be a prude and get all, umm, anal at the mention of anal sex but the MoH has a serious job to do, it has to protect people’s health… it can’t pretend things don’t happen just because you think those things are bad.
97. Scribe 97

    19 August 2008 at 4:27 pm

    At the risk of being called a moron, the simple truth is that the “safe sex” message has failed in NZ (and overseas).

    It doesn’t matter how much money government pour into the FPA in NZ, despite its “safe sex” propaganda the rate of teenage pregnancy and STIs in this country is increasing at a rapid rate of knots. NZ is in the top 2 in each of those statistics in the Western world.

    Steve, you may want everyone to be talking about sex, but you can’t pretend things don’t happen just because you think those things are good.
98. higherstandard 98

    19 August 2008 at 4:39 pm

    Scribe

    You are certainly not a moron.

    As an aside regarding the MOH pamphlet this wouldn’t get anywhere near being used as a handout or to lecture kids at the schools my kids are at – as I stated before I have my suspicions that this whole story is a large amount of hot air.
99. Anita 99

    19 August 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Rob,

    Africa birth control hmmm Anal Intercourse 6000 South Africans let alone the rest of Africa a day dying of Aids

    Reference?

    1) You need a reference for that “6000”, the first search result I found on the net said it was 1,000 a day – where did you get your number?

    2) You need to reference your implication that the high rates in South Africa are from anal sex. I think that, if you bothered to check, it might not be as true as you think.

    Finally, “I heard it on talkback” is not proof or evidence. C’mon – fact checking is really really really easy.
100. Rob 100

     19 August 2008 at 6:35 pm

     Anita sorry I understated its 6500 per day dying and 0ver 9000 new infections a day.

     It is easy to see how Aids is responsible for creating a missing generation across Africa, devastating economies, and crippling health sectors as it strikes. Across the continent, 6,500 Africans are dying every day, the equivalent of a village being wiped from the map every 24 hours. A further 9,000 are infected each day by HIV/Aids, which is the leading cause of death in Africa.

     Steve sorry I cant understand your logic was a stupid comment from you even 1000 per day dying isnt good, Pass the KY round fro your mates
101. Rob 101

     19 August 2008 at 6:44 pm

     Anita

     Just in case you want the link

     Just goes to show the old Anal isnt the best way to go One is the POO Tube One is the Do Tube why play with a Sewer whne you have a play ground next door

     http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0516-01.htm
102. Lew 102

     19 August 2008 at 6:44 pm

     I’m not sure what’s more funnier, Rob thinking anal sex causes AIDS, d4j thinking the Labour party causes child abuse, or the usually sensible HS and Scribe thinking that sex education causes STIs and teen pregnancy.

     L
103. Anita 103

     19 August 2008 at 7:34 pm

     Rob,

     Your link says that 6.500 Africans are dieing from AIDS a day. In your comment you said South Africans. They are (very) different things.

     Once again, grossly inaccurate.

     You (still) haven’t provided any evidence about the rate of HIV transmission through anal sex in South Africa.
104. Ari 104

     19 August 2008 at 10:52 pm

     At the risk of being called a moron, the simple truth is that the “safe sex’ message has failed in NZ (and overseas).

     That’s funny Scribe, because every study I’ve read on the matter has concluded that there is less incidence of both sexually transmitted infections and teenage pregnancy among kids who have received comprehensive sex education.

     You got any statistics or research to back up that assertion, or are you just trying to shut down argument with hearsay?
105. higherstandard 105

     20 August 2008 at 7:37 am

     Here you go Ari

     http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1172917
106. Scribe 106

     20 August 2008 at 9:15 am

     Lew and Ari,

     I saw a very revealing graph last year that showed the level of funding for FPANZ (which pushes the “safe sex” message over other strategies) and the rate of teenage pregnancy. As funding for the FPA increased, so did the rate of teenage pregnancies.

     [lprent/SP et al, I’ve got an offline PDF of the graph that I could email to one of you if it’s possible to post it. Only say that because I’m sure people will ask for a reference.]
107. higherstandard 107

     20 August 2008 at 9:30 am

     Scribe

     Sadly no-one wants to listen, for years we have been teaching very young kids how to have sex when in reality they should be playing with dolls and footballs but we are so obsessed with sex we feel the need to teach our kids even more on the pretext that if they learn about sex at a early age they will have safe sex?

     Well meaning Public Health Professionals getting it wrong yet again.

     Many health professionals and educators seem too scared to point out that the best way to protect oneself is not to have sex let alone reminding kids that there are laws prohibiting sex until a certain age is reached.

     Cue vitriol
108. Robinsod 108

     20 August 2008 at 9:48 am

     but we are so obsessed with sex we feel the need to teach our kids even more on the pretext that if they learn about sex at a early age they will have safe sex?

     Increased commodification of sex for profit bears a lot of responsibility for this. If we don’t educate our children about sex in a sensible and open manner then we risk having advertisers and/or the internet and/or C4 do it for us. Somehow I think I trust parents and educators to properly inform kids about sex more than people whose sole rational is profit.
109. lprent 109

     20 August 2008 at 9:48 am

     Sure e-mail it through – email is in the Contacts. I probably won’t have time to do much until late in the day. But I’ll link it into your message. If it gets up on the net earlier then tell me and I’ll link that.

     I’m VERY skeptical. Offhand:-

     1. Teen pregnancy is just one part of the FPA’s work. The FPA’s role is to provide information about birth control. It isn’t there to moderate sex. That is the parents & possibly the schools role.

     2. I’d be interested in looking at the relative velocity before compared to after whatever the graphs period is after. Hopefully the data set is referred to in the graph data.

     I suspect a coincidental correlation. I could probably get a similar correlation with the rise of cellphones, with increase in media, with the incidence of both parents working, etc.

     Off to work..
110. Matthew Pilott 110

     20 August 2008 at 9:55 am

     Scribe, does the graph explain the link, or is it that funding is increased due to high oregnancy rates, as opposed to causing it?

     HS, what do you mean by ‘very young kids’ exactly? At what stage to es sex ed begin at a level that you think is inappropriate? You make it sound like they’re teaching it at primary or kindergarten.

     I question the phrase about protecting oneself by being told that it’s against the law – is there a shred of evidence to show that would have an impact? Abstinance is always promoted in schools as well, among the alternatives people will actually use!
111. Matthew Pilott 111

     20 August 2008 at 10:03 am

     Grr edit function is shot, need to get used to proper proofing again! Normally i’d know pregnancy starts with a ‘p’…

     Just reading last comment, and realised it implied no one uses abstinence. Not true of course, but a ‘one size fits all’ approach isn’t going to work (aren’t all those ‘silver ring’ christian virgins ketting knocked up at a rate of knots?) so a variaty of options need to be presented. (and everyone knows abstinence isn’t voluntary)

     [lprent: On my list of things to do. But it requires spare time that I don’t have right now. I think that the rush of volunteer coding and database work will subside again by the weekend, so I can sneak a few hours to test the latest ajax edit and see if they’ve killed the bugs yet. ]
112. Scribe 112

     20 August 2008 at 10:32 am

     MP,

     At best, it shows that throwing more money at the problem isn’t working.

     What’s the quote again? The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different outcome.

     The FPA approach has been used for many, many years and has failed. Why pump more and more money into the organisation?
113. lprent 113

     20 August 2008 at 10:33 am

     Scribe, does the graph explain the link, or is it that funding is increased due to high oregnancy rates, as opposed to causing it?

     Good point – I missed that causative factor.
114. higherstandard 114

     20 August 2008 at 11:13 am

     Mat

     Attached is the BOT guide re sexuality – usually it is introduced in secondary schools although there have been some attempts to bring in it into intermediate and primary schools.

     http://www.tki.org.nz/r/health/curriculum/sexed_guide.pdf

     Sod also makes a very good point which I doubt anyone could disagree with a couple of comments up that advertisers/internet/popular culture has a lot to answer for.
115. Matthew Pilott 115

     20 August 2008 at 3:25 pm

     At best, it shows that throwing more money at the problem isn’t working.

     Or that the programme is only having limited success – after all, we don’t know what it would be like without the programme. I guess I’m all ears for alternatives, but think that a singluar approach – “do this is unlikely to be effective.

     HS – I agree with sod as well. Excuse the pun, but it seems schools are fighting a rearguard action here, and copping flak from parents (as the angry talkback caller mentioned above illustrates) at the same time.

     I reckon secondary school is about right – I suspect if they tried to bring information to lower levels of schooling it would be modified accordingly. You’d hope so anyway!

     I know that sex ed doesn’t happen in many schools such as Catholic schools – it would be interesting to compare teen pregnancy and STI rates with other schools with a full sex ed programme. Anyone know if that’s been done? I have an idea that studies invariably show the situation worse where the ‘no sex ed’ approach is taken. This may help shed some light on what scribe mentioned above – whether the approach is useful when compared to a comparable situation where it is not used.
116. Ben R 116

     20 August 2008 at 3:30 pm

     “Excuse the pun, but it seems schools are fighting a rearguard action here”

     heh!

     “I know that s*x ed doesn’t happen in many schools such as Catholic schools – it would be interesting to compare teen pregnancy and STI rates with other schools with a full s*x ed programme”

     Anecdotally, they are infamous for having high pregnancy rates.
117. bill brown 117

     20 August 2008 at 3:37 pm

     Yeah and those Catholic boy boarding schools are renowned for being “hot beds” of “rear guard action” I’ve heard.

     Still, at least you can be forgiven for it by telling a priest.

     [lprent: You’ve been around KB recently haven’t you..]
118. Scribe 118

     20 August 2008 at 4:12 pm

     MP,

     I’ll see if I can find any info on Catholic schools. I think they actually get pretty much the same sex ed as other schools these days, much to the disappointment of some.

     bill,

     Thanks for bringing the tone down on an important discussion (and for displaying your ignorance)
119. Matthew Pilott 119

     20 August 2008 at 4:57 pm

     Scribe – I used to think so but have heard from a few people that there is no sex ed whatsoever (or at least nothing regarding contraception). I’m not sure how widespread that practice is though, as far as Catholic schools go, but I was surprised to hear it. I suppose it would be silly to teach something that directly contravenes one’s faith at such a school though!
120. Scribe 120

     21 August 2008 at 8:22 am

     I know quite a few parents of kids in Catholic schools and some of them have been disappointed by how directly some things that contravene one’s faith are being taught in those schools.

     Will try to find that graph today

     captcha: anti-Bolshevist hulks (what the?)

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