Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq

Written By: Steve Pierson - Date published: 6:45 am, September 18th, 2008 - 158 comments
Categories: election 2008, International, john key, same old national - Tags:

Helen Clark made foreign policy judgement a campaign issue today when she told a Grey Power meeting that if New Zealand had invaded Iraq with the US as John Key wanted we would have lost up to 60 soldiers*. Through a spokesman, John Key said “the claim of 60 dead is hysterical and desperate”.

I can’t help noticing that Key isn’t denying that if he had his way we would be in Iraq and soldiers would have died. Instead, he made a misogynist personal attack (yes, it is misogynist, look up hysteria).

Remember, Key is the man who cried we were ‘missing in action in Iraq’. He is the man who said the “war in Iraq is over” a year ago (since then at the very least 7000 people have been killed and tens of thousands maimed). His caucus is stacked with pro-US hardliners like Lockwood Smith and Simon Power, who said we should go to war wherever the US and UK lead and pay our ‘fair share’ in soldiers’ lives. Can we trust Key and this mob not to lead us into the US’s next military disaster?

*[Clark got 60 by calculating our population compared to the US and the US’s losses in Iraq – nearly every nation that helped invade Iraq has lost soldiers, some at much higher rates than the US. Australia got off light with one non-combat death because they didn’t have many combat troops there. Full Iraq causality numbers here]

158 comments on “Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq ”

Comments are now closed

monkey boy 1

18 September 2008 at 6:55 am

I’m confused. Does this fall under ‘negative’ or ‘dirty’ campaigning?
Billy 2

18 September 2008 at 7:07 am

Steve, you’re sounding a bit hysterical yourself. And I do not mean that in a sexist way.
monkey boy 3

18 September 2008 at 7:23 am

At the risk of you coming across all ‘Elaiane Showalter’, I think when the PM can make up a number of dead ‘on the back of an envelope’ as an accusation against the opposition and then you can run a headline supporting that fantasy number, purporting to have an inner knowledge of Key’s ‘wishes’.
That’s just making stuff up as you go along, isn’t it?
Bryan Spondre 4

18 September 2008 at 7:34 am

“I can’t help noticing that Key isn’t denying that if he had his way ”

Reaching Steve, reaching. Clearly the left must really fear the popularity that John Key has in the electorate.

DPF has an excellent repudiation of Helen Clark’s calculation and demonstrates the likely number is 1 death and even less likely if we had been involved only in the invasion. American deaths were very low during the invasion, around 140 I believe.
higherstandard 5

18 September 2008 at 7:36 am

You’ve got to give the PM credit.

She knows WP’s vote base is wavering and she’s working their fears and prejudices hard. I wonder if she’s prepared to go down the “yellow peril” route as well.

By the way your misogynist line’s getting a bit tired.
vto 6

18 September 2008 at 7:40 am

Clark is deceptively clever at deception.

IMO her calculation ‘on the back of the envelope’ and coming up with 60 was dishonest and deceitful. There are many ways in which such a ‘back of the envelope’ calculation could be made. example – her calculation compared to troops employed had NZ then sending 15,000 troops to Iraq. Ha, what a freaking joke. She just knew it would make a good headline.

Just like her deceit over Winston Bjeikle-Peterson and his own deceit, this again paints her as absolutely no different to most any other politician who makes up shit to grab a headline.

Oh well, at least she’s consistent – in under-estimating the smarts of most NZers who would call it for the bullshit it was. Maybe that has something to do with the longish term decline in her fortunes.

She is a deceiver of the most deceptive kind.
Andrew 7

18 September 2008 at 7:41 am

For goodness sake, Labour sent troups to Iraq and there were no deaths. Now before you say that was because it was after the initial invasion force, the inital invasion was the safest time to be there. In the time that NZ was there was one of the most dangerous times to be there.

please stop your hysterical spin campain and get your facts right.

We have had 4 soldiers killed in east teamor, one or which, leonard manning, was a close personal friend of mine from Te Kauwhata!

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. You spin them the way you want without looking at all the facts! grow up!
Ted 8

18 September 2008 at 7:50 am

Is Helen Clark on large doses of psychotropic medications?
max 9

18 September 2008 at 8:00 am

[Tane: We’re not going to host that kind of homophobic bile.]
John 10

18 September 2008 at 8:03 am

The smell of desperation is overwhelming.

“Key still wishes’? where has he said that?- oh, no denial. That proves it then?

“misogynist personal attack’. Well I took you invitation and looked it up. Is this the reference you are referring to in your link?

“The term hysteria was coined by Hippocrates, who thought that suffocation and madness arose in women whose uteri had become too light and dry from lack of sexual intercourse and, as a result, wandered upward, compressing the heart, lungs, and diaphragm.’

“60 dead’? Aussies casuality ratio is .01% -assuming NZ sent 8% of our armed forces (or 770 troops) we may just be treating one of them for a broken arm.

The poor oldies having to hear all that BS, when all they should care about is the 400 deaths per annum on NZ hospital waiting lists
max 11

18 September 2008 at 8:09 am

Nice one Tane: THere was NO homophobic bile there, but if it makes you feel better about censoring a valid point of view buddy.
max 12

18 September 2008 at 8:11 am

You care to replace the post with the ‘homophobic bile’ blanked out so everyone can see the ‘homophobic’ context?

LOL – you people are jokes.
max 13

18 September 2008 at 8:13 am

Bt I forgot, the new anti-key ‘strategy’ (big word for a bully boy tactic) is to brand him a mysoginist homophobe.
Tane 14

18 September 2008 at 8:15 am

Max. Other commenters write dissenting points of view here without being moderated, and there is clearly no shortage of right-wing points of view on this site. Your overstepped the mark with your homophobic filth. Stop acting like you’re a free speech martyr.
max 15

18 September 2008 at 8:20 am

There wasnt one iota of ‘homophobic’ filth in my post – if there was you would have reprinted it.

You just didnt like how close to the bone my analysis was.

[Tane: There will be no more correspondence on this matter. Clean up your act or you will be banned.]
Stephen 16

18 September 2008 at 8:24 am

“Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq”

Where the hell did he say that? Did he even say it?!
vto 17

18 September 2008 at 8:33 am

good bit of biffo there
ak 18

18 September 2008 at 8:40 am

No wonder the frothers are sensitive over this one: there is no doubt whatsoever that if Key had been PM at the time, New Zealand would have become part of the “coalition of the willing” and our country indelibly branded on the lists of various fanatics.

The brutal deaths of family members is remembered for generations: but for Helen Clark’s maturity and principle, our children and their children’s children would have been potential targets of terrorism forever.

In an uncertain world the last person we want in charge is a green, hollow, flip-flopping money trader with the gravitas of a wet tissue.
monkey-boy 19

18 September 2008 at 8:44 am

Oh, I get it now. Thanks ak.
vto 20

18 September 2008 at 8:46 am

but ak how does clark sending our troops to both iraq and afghanistan with consequent risk of becoming a more high profile terrorism target fit in your partisan summation?
Pascal's bookie 21

18 September 2008 at 9:04 am

vto, I think most can see the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan.

Most can also tell the difference between the invasion of Iraq, the UN authorised window that we were in there for, and the later occupation that flared up seriously in 06.

Hope that’s not too partisan.
Andrew 22

18 September 2008 at 9:06 am

ak – according to the United Nations we are on a list of contries that have been fighting the war in Iraq.

What do you have to say to that? … once again, please get your facts right before sprouting off about a subject you know nothing about.

[lprent: Not quite. We are on the list of countries that are doing work in Iraq. In this case after the UN requested help (post-invasion) with critical infrastructure, we sent over EME’s (engineers). I think (from memory) they were repairing water systems.

We did not help invade or occupy Iraq as part of the coalition of the terminal brown noses.

“please get your facts right before sprouting off about a subject you know nothing about.”
Yes well…..]
Brett dale 23

18 September 2008 at 9:07 am

First off it was disgusting that she used fear tactics and an insult to anyone who has fought for their country.

Secondly to make up a number by population is just bad math. The American troops have been doing most of the fighting, thats why their death toll is around 4000.

Taking Aunty Helen’s attempt at math’s, the Australian death toll should be at around 240?

How many Australians have been killed in Iraq?
Scribe 24

18 September 2008 at 9:09 am

The smell of desperation is overwhelming.

‘Nuff said.

captcha: arrested $50,000 (no, it was $100k)
Steve Pierson 25

18 September 2008 at 9:17 am

brett you can haggle over the numbers if you like. the Aussies lost 1 would that be ok with you? The Estonians two, Denmark 7… how many dead is ok by you brett? Because, like Key, you seem fixated on the number, not the idea we should have sent soldiers to die.
Inventory2 26

18 September 2008 at 9:18 am

Ignoring the fact that John Key wouldn’t have been PM had National won in 2005, do you have the actual quote of Key saying this Steve? Or are you using the back of an envelope as well?

Meanwhile, who said “This is an election about trust”? The same person who makes up figures on the hoof.
Felix 27

18 September 2008 at 9:19 am

Are the special needs schools having a day off today or something?

You all know very well Key would have had us join the invasion of Iraq. You all know he’ll have us join the next international disaster too.

It’s not a case of reading between the lines either – he said it and he’s never revised that wish (except to say it’s no longer an issue).

So why don’t you all just come out and say you agree with him that we should have been in Iraq all along?
vto 28

18 September 2008 at 9:20 am

the invasion of iraq sukked. humanity at its worst.
travellerev 29

18 September 2008 at 9:29 am

Good to see all the trollers out in full force and showing their ignorance in its full glory once again.

I would love to know the contents of John Key’s portfolio. I wonder if he has Halliburton, Raetheon or Boeing shares to name a few of the profitable war crime corporations.

Of course little footsoldier to the privatly owned banking elite John Key would have loved to partake in both wars. That’s how bankers make most of their profits.
They financed both sides in WW I and II and it is very much the MO of the international privately owned banking cartel.

Helen Clark’s number of casualties is of course purely speculative but chances are that the number she mentions is actually on the low side.
Helen Clark makes a case for this number but what she does not acknowledge is the contamination with “Depleted” Uranium which is making tens of thousands of US troops ill while their casualties do not appear in the official figures.

Both Iraq and Afghanistan are contaminated with more than 2000 tons each of ceramic DU nanoparticles causing massive increases in cancer, Leukaemia and child deformities. It isn’t just humans but animals and plant life is affected and will be for the next ooh 4.5 billion years. Ooops, that is as long as the earth has existed so that would mean until the end of times. And don’t worry guys it will come home to NZ with our troops. Wait for the first rapports of deformities. I have heard of one already.
Inventory2 30

18 September 2008 at 9:33 am

travellerev said “And don’t worry guys it will come home to NZ with our troops. Wait for the first rapports of deformities. I have heard of one already.”

So it’s true then – Helen Clark did send troops to Iraq?
Tim Ellis 31

18 September 2008 at 9:41 am

Good on you SP. I do like a good wind-up in the morning.

Helen Clark’s claim was silly and preposterous. It was as close to your own definition of dirty campaigning that you can get. The numbers were a bald-faced lie. It’s as credible as John Key saying: “If aliens had invaded New Zealand during Helen Clark’s term of office, then she would have welcomed them, and they would have infected the population with disease and wiped out half of New Zealand. If aliens had arrived, Helen Clark would have the blood of millions on her hands.”

That claim is as credible as Helen Clark’s yesterday. I think it is just filthy to go to a Grey Power meeting and scare-monger elderly like that. Elderly people have an expectation that when the Prime Minister turns up, she is going to put forward the truth. They treat her with respect, as they do all visitors. There isn’t a shred of truth to what Helen Clark said yesterday. Not a single media report gave her credit for it. I suspect if she continues to behave like that, she is going to lose even more credibility with the media.

SP, there is also no evidence that John Key was being mysogynist. That is an hysterical argument from you. It was very, very weak. That John Key didn’t deny it is not confirmation. Plenty of authors of the Standard have been accused of things, which has not been confirmed or denied. I suspect that is because the accusations have been so baseless that they aren’t worthy of the dignity of a response.

Helen Clark’s claim was so baseless, John Key didn’t need to dignify it with a response.
Tim Ellis 32

18 September 2008 at 9:45 am

SP said:

brett you can haggle over the numbers if you like. the Aussies lost 1 would that be ok with you? The Estonians two, Denmark 7 how many dead is ok by you brett? Because, like Key, you seem fixated on the number, not the idea we should have sent soldiers to die.

Are you saying SP that we shouldn’t send soldiers anywhere? It is inevitable that if we send soldiers into conflict, there is a risk of death. We’ve lost soldiers in Timor. Helen Clark willingly committed soldiers to Timor, where we still have troops. Does that mean Helen Clark has blood on her hands SP?

[i’m not arguing all military action is wrong or that it is never worth risking soldiers’ lives, but the vast majority of kiwis didn’t think that iraq was one of those times. SP]
Andrew 33

18 September 2008 at 9:55 am

“Helen Clark willingly committed soldiers to Timor, where we still have troops. Does that mean Helen Clark has blood on her hands SP”

Game, Set …. Match!
vto 34

18 September 2008 at 9:56 am

Tim Ellis, clark and labour have a history of putting fear into the vulnerable. witness the ‘eviction notices’ to tenants last election. Now this to scare the elderly. Disgusting.

Keep the public in fear ay. Keeps them on side. Interesting to see clark following bush’s lead.
travellerev 35

18 September 2008 at 10:00 am

Inventory2,

The US bombed the hell out of Afghanistan with some 2000 tons of DU in October 2001 before going in and has continued to do so during the entire war. The official story is that New Zealand only send troops to Afghanistan but according to Iprent New Zealand also send civilians to Iraq to help with the rebuilding of the country.

I have also been told by an ex-military New Zealander that about three hundred ex military have been send to Iraq to train alongside US marines in the recent dÃ©tente between NZ and the US. He also told me that he knew some 60 of those personally.

I don’t know about the validity of that claim but I referred to the Afghanistan based troops only.

Helen Clark has no real control over that part of the NZ foreign policy though. She gets her orders from London and the crown on that one. At least that’s my take on it.

[lprent: we sent military. The EME’s are the army engineers. Easy enough to lookup I’d guess look around http://army.mil.nz. We sent them in about 2003 ? They were under the protection of the Brits in the south. They were sent afte rthe UN asked for assistance in getting critical infrastructure up and running again after it’d been bombed.]
Steve Pierson 36

18 September 2008 at 10:00 am

Andrew. my argument is not a pacifist one. i don’t believe all military action is wrong by definition and with miitary action comes the liklihod of loss of life. that’s actually what most people think – sometimes sending our boys in is the right thing to do and fingers crossed they all come back but key is happy to lose lives for the US invasion of iraq, and that’s where he parts ways with most kiwis.
Pascal's bookie 37

18 September 2008 at 10:03 am

Tim you seem very defensive.

I understand that you would far rather that this campaign not be fought on issues of judgement, and that the National parties judgemnet with regard to this issue was appalling, but Helen Clark did not lie.

You can’t lie about hypotheticals, you can hypothesise though. Which is all she did

So, not surprisingly, your sophistry once again is dishonest, and it is you that is lying.

Your mad arse counter theory about aliens falls flat because there was, in fact, an invasion of Iraq, and if we had of had a National government we would have been there, and in all likelyhood stayed there throughout the occupation.

We know this, because that is what the National party said.

They said we were ‘missing in action’ and that ‘where America goes, we should go’.

That is not a popular position these days and so you don’t like people talking about it, but untill the National party explain why they have changed their minds and give us reason to trust their judgement, which is what this is about, then your bluster remains just a diversionary tactic that everyone sees through like a in hole a ladder.
bill brown 38

18 September 2008 at 10:15 am

Tim,

I’d be interested to know what your ratio of number of NZ troops killed in Iraq would be to the security of supply of oil into US refineries.

Would 1 NZ soldier dead to no increase in security be OK?

Would 1 NZ soldier “with a broken arm” to no increase in security be OK?
vto 39

18 September 2008 at 10:17 am

P’s B clark deceived those grey power folk (or rather tried to deceive) with her ridiculous assumption. And she knows it. That is as close to lying as you can get without strictly ‘lying’.

dirty. negative. deceptive.
the sprout 40

18 September 2008 at 10:17 am

“Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq’

He must think there’s some short-term profit to be made.
And who said he was more like Bush than Obama?
Brett Dale 41

18 September 2008 at 10:24 am

Steve:

Because Aunty Helen gave a false number as a estimate to shock people and get more votes, it was a sick thing to do just to garner more votes.
Dom 42

18 September 2008 at 10:27 am

Tim, you cannot compare Iraq and Timor. Those of us who have lost relatives in this US led invasion of Iraq find that comparison vile.
RedLogix 43

18 September 2008 at 10:28 am

Again travellerev hits a vital point; the fact that HC’s ‘back of envelope’ calculation uses an artificially low figure for US Iraqi war casualties in the first place. The US have been using a range of dishonest methods to downplay the real number right from the outset; but alongside this is even more wrenching tragedy of those who return home severely crippled and maimed.

One aspect of the Iraq war is that soldiers who would have died on their injuries in WW2 or even Vietnam, are now because of the new body armour, improved evacutation and treatment options, are ‘surviving’ to return home alive, but profoundly brain damaged.

Another astounding aspect has been the suicide rates among returned Iraqi vets. How deeply traumatic must it be to realise that was your tour of service in Iraq was legally and morally wrong; that far from being of any use, you were hated by the Iraqi people.

And again as trav reminds us, the whole DU issue will not go away. There is just far too much evidence that something very evil has happened here, and one day we will no longer be able to deny it.
Pascal's bookie 44

18 September 2008 at 10:28 am

vto, It’s about judgement. I think those “grey power folk ” understand that. Whose judgement was right, whose was wrong, and whose can we trust. The National party has given me no reason to trust theirs.
Andrew 45

18 September 2008 at 10:29 am

“lprent: we sent military. The EME’s are the army engineers”

Yes we did send engineers as well as soldiers. The point i was trying to make to ak, was that Islamic fundamentalists will not see the difference between other troops and our ‘engineers’ as we are foreign soldiers on thier soil. They obviously don’t hate us as much as the americans or brits, but we were still there in their country. So that makes us a target as well … a very, very unlikely target, but a target in the eyes of some all the same.

I know a few soldiers that were in Iraq and as well as engineers, they did in fact engage in direct fighting when the need arose. they were by no means on the front line, but fighting and shooting at people none the less.

So all i was trying to say was it is disgusting that Helen used our brave troops as pawns in her political campaign of fear against John Key.

Negative, or dirty? you decide.
r0b 46

18 September 2008 at 10:34 am

It’s as credible as John Key saying: “If aliens had invaded New Zealand during Helen Clark’s term of office, then she would have welcomed them, and they would have infected the population with disease and wiped out half of New Zealand. If aliens had arrived, Helen Clark would have the blood of millions on her hands.’ That claim is as credible as Helen Clark’s yesterday.

Is it Tim? Perhaps you should buy yourself a tinfoil hat. Those aliens might be out to get you.

Meanwhile back in the real world Iraq is a moral, social, military (and for the US financial) fiasco that NZ did very well to stay out of.

I think it is just filthy to go to a Grey Power meeting and scare-monger elderly like that.

She was very well received Tim, with applause for her comments on Iraq. Nice of you to get all upset on their behalf, but I think Grey Power can make up their own minds, don’t you? Or perhaps your aliens are using their mind control beams on them?
RedLogix 47

18 September 2008 at 10:43 am

So all i was trying to say was it is disgusting that Helen used our brave troops as pawns in her political campaign of fear against John Key.

Why? The simple fact is that if New Zealand had sent a useful sized contingent of combat troops into Iraq… as John Key said he would have done…. we would have had combat deaths. If we had sent say 1000 troops, simple calculations suggest maybe 30 to 60 body bags, depending on the range of assumptions you make. There is no denying this. It was a perfectly reasonable thing to point out, that Mr Key’s stated position on Iraq had a logical consequence.

Or are you merely uncomfortable at having this pointed out to you?
rave 48

18 September 2008 at 10:51 am

Is this statement by Clark ‘negative or dirty’?
Neither. The war is dirty, pointing that out is positive.
The Nats are dirty for wanting to fight in wars for oil for profits. Even Greenspan acknowledged that the war in Iraq was for oil.
That statement is not negative, its positive, because its advancing the position that this is a dirty war and should be stopped.
What’s positive? That US invaders are getting killed. What would be more positive? That the US ruling class that profits from this war should be conscripted to put their lives and their money where their mouths are.
If Key, Power and Co want NZ to get involved in wars for oil for profit, they should be the first to be taxed to pay for them and the first to be drafted.
vto 49

18 September 2008 at 10:55 am

rave for once i agree with one of your points. those who make a decision to go to war must go and fight the war themselves as well.
Tim Ellis 50

18 September 2008 at 10:55 am

RedLogix, we didn’t have a thousand troops available to send to Iraq. It is beyond ludicrous to assume that our troops would have faced monumentally higher risks than Australia. We’ve lost more soldiers in Timor than Australia has in Iraq.
gobsmacked 51

18 September 2008 at 11:01 am

Of course a National government would have had blood on their hands, in an illegal, insane war. Innocent civilian blood.

I know, them Eye-raqis with funny names don’t count as human, but there you go.
r0b 52

18 September 2008 at 11:10 am

It is beyond ludicrous to assume that our troops would have faced monumentally higher risks than Australia.

Tell it to Denmark – they lost 7 times what Australia lost.

Risks depend on where troops are and how they are deployed. In previous wars NZ has had higher per capita death rates than other Commonwealth countries.
travellerev 53

18 September 2008 at 11:15 am

You know my father in law is 82 and completely up and running with politics and 911 etc. He doesn’t scare easily and takes his time researching topics we talk about on the internet and while he has a very respectable age his brain is in excellent shape.

What gets me on this thread is that the obvious Helen haters all claim that she scared witless semi senile oldies for political reasons.

From what I gather the people united in the Grey power group are astute, politically savvy and intend on having something to say on how this country is run and making sure their rights are protected.

To paint them as easily scared senile old sweeties is just disingenuous and patronising.

Andrew,

If what you say is true than Helen Clark and Phil Goff are involved in War crimes and an illegal war of aggression.

Let me make myself clear: Based on the fact that it was scientifically impossible for three steel framed buildings to have collapsed in freefall (11, 10 and 6.5 sec) speed due to the impact of just two Airplanes and based on the fact that the military grade incendiary explosive Nano Thermite has been found in ample amounts in dust of all three buildings that collapse on 911 I am of the opinion that 19 young Arabs (some of whom are still alive and whose “leader” Mohamed Atta loved cocaine, booze and lapdances, in fact he lived with a stripper for two months while “training” in Venice) could not have brought the three buildings down.

And with that the whole reason for being in Afghanistan is moot because it was after all Osama bin Laden we entered Afghanistan for, remember?
Tim Ellis 54

18 September 2008 at 11:30 am

Risks depend on where troops are and how they are deployed. In previous wars NZ has had higher per capita death rates than other Commonwealth countries.

That isn’t true, r0b. Our last major commitment, in Vietnam, saw NZ lose 40 soldiers to Australia’s 436. In the Korean War, NZ lost 43 to Australia’s 339. We lost more people as a proportion to Australia during the First and Second world wars, when we were under British command, but not since.

[come on Tim, you can do better than haggle over numbers. 6, 60, 600, the first question is whether risking anyone’s life would have been worth it – Key says yes and that’s got to be a worry for Kiwis who oppose these kinds of interventions. SP[
Billy 55

18 September 2008 at 11:30 am

Ev,

Can we have one thread where you mention neither 911 nor depleted uranium? Try starting with a thread where you mention only one and work your down from there.
John Stevens 56

18 September 2008 at 11:31 am

How many NZ soldiers have died in non combat areas since 1999? Must be somewhere around the 5-8 mark, remember the Unimog accident etc?
Clark is a liar on this and she knows it. It is more relavant to compare to Australian deaths, not USA deaths.
Lies, lies and statistics.

[the question is not whether soldiers die but whether it would have been worth sending soldiers to kill and die in Iraq. Key still says yes. SP]
lukas 57

18 September 2008 at 11:38 am

Billy- thats like asking HC to hold all her ministers to the same standard… never going to happen
Matthew Pilott 58

18 September 2008 at 11:47 am

Tim obviously forgot Gallipoli. Because there’s clearly no way losses in a war wouldn’t be in exact proportion to the number of troops deployed. Right? It goes like a pretty bell-curve, with perfectly normal distribution.

At least we’ve all moved past the point of disputing whether people would have died because John Key is ambitious for the US and their oil dependency. Sad that we have to haggle on the numbers that would probably have died for Key’s ‘abmition’.

I think Clark’s number was high – instead of basing it upon a NZ comparison of US deaths per-capita, a look at the deaths based upon a probable deployed New Zealand force would have been more appropriate. I.e. US 150,000 troops and 4,000 dead. So if we sent 500 troops, fighting where America fought, an approximation would be 13 dead.

A lot of assumptions there – equal duties, equal risk, and so on. It could easily be far lower, or far higher. Casualties would certainly be well over 60 – as RedLogix pointed out death isn’t the only outcome.

Interestingly, a comment above stated that most deaths occurred after the conflict. Numerically that is true, because the ‘mission’ was ‘accomplished’ a bit prematurely. 4.13 deaths a day during the conflict, and around 2 a day afterwards.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Ah, found it: Andrew “Now before you say that was because it was after the initial invasion force, the inital invasion was the safest time to be there.”

What was that about facts, buddy? Get ’em right.
gobsmacked 59

18 September 2008 at 11:55 am

What a scary, depressing debate. I suppose this is what happens when people live war through Hollywood and computer games.

Old “pro-war” argument: “We will send our soldiers to fight and kill and die and get maimed, because that’s what happens in wars, so just deal with it”.

Not very nice, but honest.

Modern “pro-war” argument: “We will send our soldiers to war, but nobody will get hurt, at least not in front of the cameras, it will be a nice war, and if anybody does die we’ll have lots of cliched Anzac Day-type coverage and and pretend that it’s all noble and has a great movie soundtrack.”

And then – obscenely – spin doctors will argue about casualty figures, knowing that they are mere bloodless numbers, a world away from the reality of the war.

John Key supported the war. The war is a crime against humanity. And any fucking chicken-hawks who support it should be on the front line. After all, if nobody would have died, they would be perfectly safe, wouldn’t they?

Don’t bother responding unless you’ve got a plane ticket to Baghdad, heroes. The occupation needs you, and you’ve told us how safe it is, so off you go.
Matthew Pilott 60

18 September 2008 at 11:58 am

Clark is a liar on this and she knows it.

Given that you, in making the statement, can’t even beging to attempt to articulate it, I can’t see that being the case.

It is more relavant to compare to Australian deaths, not USA deaths.

Ahh, it’s where America goes, we should go, not Australia.

Or are you telling us that you, John Stevens, would have been responsible for the internal deployment of NZ troops in Iraq, and that you know we’d be fighting where Australia was, and not the hotspots the US and UK were?

Lies, lies, and lies. Not even a statistic. Or an attempt at an argument.
jo zinny 61

18 September 2008 at 12:00 pm

To Bryan Spondre and his readers..

nice to see you confirming that US intervention in Iraq was, as you say, “the invasion”.

Democracies as I am sure you know, can be very vulnerable to popular figures.. indeed New Zealand fell under the Rob Muldoon spell several decades back..
rave 62

18 September 2008 at 12:01 pm

Well if the probability was that “up to…how many?..1,2,3…60” would have been killed had National deployed troops to Iraq, remembering that National would have been brown-nosing to recapture their lost ally, then that would have taken care of at at least Williamson, Key and Power and many of the rightwing warmongers who want NZ bristling with arms so “we pay our way”.

VTO: Of course if the arseholes fought their own wars there would be none.
r0b 63

18 September 2008 at 12:03 pm

That isn’t true, r0b.

I didn’t say all previous was Tim, or recent previous wars, though to be clear yes I should have said some previous wars.

Fact remains, as the case of Denmark shows, the risks of a country with troops in Iraq is difficult to predict. And comparing such risks to the risks of invading aliens from outer space, as you did, is to trivialise a life and death matter.
lprent 64

18 September 2008 at 12:10 pm

Andrew:

Yes we did send engineers as well as soldiers.

What a puzzling statement.

EME’s are soldiers first, engineers second. Just as all army medics like I was are soldiers first and medics second. If attacked then they’d defend. But they would not be doing active campaigning.

So all i was trying to say was it is disgusting that Helen used our brave troops as pawns in her political campaign of fear against John Key.

Negative, or dirty? you decide.

The thing that soldiers fear above all else are idiot politicians who put them in harms way for their own stupid political positions. It doesn’t matter if it is Lange with his idiotic ideas about going into Fiji in the 1980’s, or Key’s position on Iraq. Neither appeared to have a point in terms of NZ strategic position. There were no benefits in terms of the international multilaterism from the UN that we usually support.

I’d say that Helen was making a clear distinction between a politician who looked at the cost-benefits to NZ, and an idiot who wanted to do it because “everyone else was”.

Now people that talk the way you do about “brave troops” probably should do a course on the politicians bullshit compared to the reality in world war one. Using that kind of approach is not just dirty, it is also moronic because it ignores military history. It is the language of idiot aristrocrats and their braying minions. Damn I started to talk about talkback radio again.
Tim Ellis 65

18 September 2008 at 12:18 pm

Matthew said:

“Tim obviously forgot Gallipoli. Because there’s clearly no way losses in a war wouldn’t be in exact proportion to the number of troops deployed. Right? It goes like a pretty bell-curve, with perfectly normal distribution.”

I didn’t forget Gallipoli, Matthew. I conceded that NZ lost more troops in the First World War than other Commonwealth countries. I noted that we were under British command at that stage. We were basically cannon-fodder for the British army, both at Gallipoli and in Flanders.

In error, I did concede that NZ appears to have lost more troops in WW2 than other Commonwealth countries. In fact, as a proportion of troops deployed, we had fewer casualties during WW2 than Britain did.

It is also true that many countries who have deployed troops in Iraq have had no casualties in conflict. South Korea has 600 troops there, without a single casualty. Albania has 240 troops under US command, without a single casualty. Mongolia has 100 under Polish command, without a single casualty. Tonga has 55 without a casualty. Norway had 150 troops, without a single casualty. In fact, of the 40 countries that have deployed troops to Iraq, 32 have lost fewer troops than New Zealand has in Timor.

As for Helen Clark’s claim of 60 New Zealanders returning home in body bags, consider this. Of the the 40 countries deployed to Iraq since the invasion, only two countries have had more than 60 deaths.
bill brown 66

18 September 2008 at 12:20 pm

So Tim, how many NZ soldiers dead in Iraq would be OK for you then?
Pascal's bookie 67

18 September 2008 at 12:28 pm

Tim, stop masticating.

Which party showed better judgement about Iraq?

Why did the stupid party get it so wrong, and how can we trust that their judgement has improved?

Simple questions for a simple sophist.
lprent 68

18 September 2008 at 12:29 pm

Tim: It is hardly the point. Why should have we committed combat troops in an aggressive invasion with no point.

There was no point for NZ apart from brown-nosing George W Bush. All of the origional rationales for going into Iraq were just wrong, and were known to be wrong at the time. We’d have been sending troops into a war with no military point, no political objectives, and basically for no reason. Any deaths or risk of death would have been unacceptable.

I find it hard to understand why anyone rational would support John Key in his insistence that it would have been a good idea to follow the yankee republicians into Iraq
Tim Ellis 69

18 September 2008 at 12:32 pm

None, Bill, and if you had spent any time in the army then you wouldn’t dare use soldiers as political cannon fodder the way Helen Clark has.

There is a real issue about New Zealand’s involvement in Iraq, which Helen Clark is deliberately blurring. New Zealand was involved in reconstruction. New Zealand could have committed further troops, which would have led to an increased risk to those soldiers. Would John Key have done so? Well, he said a few years ago that he might, but he didn’t have any professional military advisers at the time. My instinct is that the advice he would have received, had he been PM, from Foreign Affairs and Defence advisers would have been not to commit troops to Iraq. We were already stretched to capacity in Afghanistan and Timor. Foreign Affairs would have advised him, in response to the US request for troops, to say: “We support you in your efforts. We’re already committed in Afghanistan and Timor. We will send reconstruction troops after the invasion is over.”

We don’t know what decision John Key would have actually made. Would a Labour Prime Minister have committed troops to Korea? Or Vietnam? Or to Bosnia? It’s pointless to speculate on that.

What is likely is that John Key would not have criticised the US publicly the way Helen Clark did. She did that, no doubt, because she believed what she was saying. But there was a considerable domestic cost to criticising the US, in terms of our chances of gaining a free trade agreement with the US.

In my view, the best outcome would have been to make no more military commitment than we did, refuse to criticise the US in the way Helen Clark did, and achieve a free trade agreement. Would John Key have achieved this? Possibly. It wouldn’t have made him the darling of the Left, but the outcomes for New Zealand would have been much better than what we got.

Helen Clark had no basis for making the claim of 60 deaths in Iraq under John Key, except for scare-mongering vulnerable elderly voters. That is dirty campaigning.
gobsmacked 70

18 September 2008 at 12:32 pm

FFS. This isn’t hard.

1) You support the invasion and are prepared to inflict and accept casualties – even be one yourself.

or

2) You don’t support the invasion.

Those are the two positions on this issue. Not:

You support the invasion, but just as long as nobody on your side dies, because that would be like, all gross and icky, and if it did happen you would bring everybody home.
higherstandard 71

18 September 2008 at 12:35 pm

Rather bizarre thread… the PM was just understandably doing some politicing and it all seems to have caused a bit of a storm in a teacup.

All the theorising and second guessing is as useful as trying to imagine what would have happened if the USA hadn’t gone into Iraq – honestly who really knows ?
higherstandard 72

18 September 2008 at 12:37 pm

Lynn

Hasn’t the government just “brown-nosed” W over the nuclear issue with India ?

[just because Farrar said it doesn’t make it so. NZ, Ireland, and Austria formed a core group that would have blocked the US-India nuke deal without getting a list of measures as safeguards to insure the nuke material wouldn’t go to the military program. We got most of our conditions met and dropped our opposition to the deal – politics, especially diplomacy, is the art of the possible, and we did damn well in this instance. SP]
r0b 73

18 September 2008 at 12:39 pm

None, Bill

Good. Labour achieved this, National would probably not.

and if you had spent any time in the army then you wouldn’t dare use soldiers as political cannon fodder the way Helen Clark has.

Because it’s better to use them as real cannon fodder? Oh Please. As Lynn commented above “The thing that soldiers fear above all else are idiot politicians who put them in harms way for their own stupid political positions”.
travellerev 74

18 September 2008 at 12:42 pm

Billy,

50.000 first responders (you know the heroes who went to that pile everyday) are dying as a result of the buildings collapsing into dust and them breathing the dust in 20.000 New Yorkers are dying because of the same. The survivors and widows and families of people who died in those towers want a new and independent investigation.

1.2 million or more Iraqis have died as a result of the events and we don’t even know how many Afghanis have died. New Zealand has troops in Afghanistan who probably would much rather be home because we were going in to “catch” Osama bin Laden whose family has profiteered hugely from the wars byt the way. Around the world including NZ laws have been implemented that curb our freedoms in the name of fighting terror. So if it is all the same to you I will keep on talking about it and to get back to the thread and it’s relevance: According to the US we need to send many more soldiers to Afghanistan. Not to help build up the country but to kill more “Taliban” and “al Qaeda”.

By the way did you know that the CIA paid Mujahedeen to train as guerrilla’s and that it was the CIA who paid for the Afghani and Pakistani Madrassas (Islamic fundamentalist schools) and that from those Mujahedeen a data base was compiled (Al Qaeda means “the base”) of no more than some 500 names who provoked the Russians to attack Afghanistan in order to get the Russians embroiled in a long protracted unwinnable war. A bit like the US and the Coalition of the w(k)illing is involved in now.

If we have been lied to in order to get us to go to war than I want to know about it.

Oh one last titillating little nugget: the bin Laden family is part of the Carlyle group George W. Bush is very good friends with the bin Laden family. In fact he was in the white house while his son was in Florida on the night preceding the events of 911. it is the annual Carlyle investors meeting. Guess who he had dinner with the night before 911; With none other than the guest off honour Safiq bin Laden. Osama’s brother. The Carlyle group is one of the biggest profiteers of both the Afghan and Iraq war.

Billy do you still think that ordinary New Zealanders should be risking their lives in Afghanistan for big oil and the military industrial complex?
travellerev 75

18 September 2008 at 12:46 pm

Lucas,

yawn
Steve Pierson 76

18 September 2008 at 12:50 pm

hs. there will be decisions like the decision whether to join the invasion of Iraq to be made in the future as well.. Key’s position on Iraq indicates how we can expect him to behave in the future, just as Clark’s opposition to the Vietnam war presaged her opposition to Iraq.
lprent 77

18 September 2008 at 12:51 pm

hs: I’m still not sure exactly what went on, indeed I’m having problems understanding exactly what are the issues (lack of time).

The best stuff I’ve read has been at http://addingnoughts.blogspot.com/ and I’m planning to go back there for a closer look.

So far it looks to me like the US was going to get its way anyway, and we and the other countries agreed on the basis that there were better safeguards (but I could be wrong). I’d point out that I’m highly pragmatic – not green or act supporter (too doctrinaire) or a talkbacker (too ignorant). I don’t make opinions without getting some feel about the facts.

BTW: the hire car I’m driving seems to only have talkback radio stations. It is like diving into a world of make-believe where people make up ‘facts’ on the fly based on how good they sound. Urgghhhh…
higherstandard 78

18 September 2008 at 12:56 pm

“BTW: the hire car I’m driving seems to only have talkback radio stations. It is like diving into a world of make-believe where people make up â€˜facts’ on the fly based on how good they sound. Urgghhhh ”

Yeech .. sounds like a combination of parliamentary question time and a Privileges committee hearing !
vto 79

18 September 2008 at 1:00 pm

like clark making up her number of 60 dead. maybe she has been spending too much time listening to talkback herself.
higherstandard 80

18 September 2008 at 1:06 pm

SP

Spin it any way you like – there is nothing to stop India from utilising the Uranium to make more nuclear weapons.

According to the NY Times we along with a few other countries were leaned on quite heavily.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/world/asia/07india.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin

I suspect the NZ Greens have a very different viewpoint to you and Labour and National on this one.
travellerev 81

18 September 2008 at 1:09 pm

Oh and Billy,

I forgot all those patriotic American kids that joined after 911 and died and got hurt and are now killing themselves at a rate of some 18 a day because they can’t live with themselves any more after three, four or five gruelling tours, killing Iraqis and getting killed by road side bombs.

And the hundreds of thousands of those men and women who came back with debilitating diseases caused by DEPLETED URANIUM.

All because of 911

In fact one of the brave young men who worked on “Loose chance” had done tours in Afghanistan and two in Iraq. I reckon he felt pretty pissed off when he started looking properly at all the video material.

You should try it yourself one time.
Matthew Pilott 82

18 September 2008 at 1:41 pm

Tim, those nice warm fuzzy guesses of yours are completely worthless, I’m afraid. Here’s an equally (more in my books) likely scenario:

My instinct is that the advice he would have received, had he been PM, from Foreign Affairs and Defence advisers would have been not to commit troops to Iraq. We were already stretched to capacity in Afghanistan and Timor. Foreign Affairs would have advised him, in response to the US request for troops, to say: “We support you in your efforts. We’re already committed in Afghanistan and Timor. We will send reconstruction troops after the invasion is over.’

Key would have replied that where America goes, we go, and that we aren’t about to be MIA in Iraq. He would have withdrawn our peacekeeping forces from East Timor, and our PRT from Afghanistan, and sent them, plus everyone else he could muster, to Iraq.

“As for Helen Clark’s claim of 60 New Zealanders returning home in body bags, consider this. Of the the 40 countries deployed to Iraq since the invasion, only two countries have had more than 60 deaths.”

Yes, Tim, and it’s because we were not fighting there that we didn’t have the chance to be one of them. I already said this:

“I think Clark’s number was high – instead of basing it upon a NZ comparison of US deaths per-capita, a look at the deaths based upon a probable deployed New Zealand force would have been more appropriate. I.e. US 150,000 troops and 4,000 dead. So if we sent 500 troops, fighting where America fought, an approximation would be 13 dead.”

Nice of you to reiterate Clark’s claim, after I had also disputed it. Does 13 dead sound like enough to support Key being ambitious to support US depencence on oil? I’ve already stated it’s sad we’re haggling over the numbers.

“None, Bill, and if you had spent any time in the army then you wouldn’t dare use soldiers as political cannon fodder the way Helen Clark has.”

How so? Looks to me like she’s refrained from doing so, unlike Key, whou would have done so in order to suck up to the US. You’ve got it right backwards.
higherstandard 83

18 September 2008 at 1:57 pm

MP

In the what if games that are being played why do you think Key would have ignored the advice from foreign affairs and defense ?
lprent 84

18 September 2008 at 2:01 pm

vto: Granny herald in one of the political columns checked her numbers. They said on the basis that she was using (relative to the US troops casualties) that she was wrong. It should have been 55 rather than 60.

Still far too high for a war that has no point.

captcha: SAILS Siberia
JK could do with a little tour… He likes his holidays
Pascal's bookie 85

18 September 2008 at 2:02 pm

HS, do you remember that article a while back with Brash having a wee cry to a journo? He said one of his biggest regrets was not standing up enough for his pacifist beliefs and opposing the Iraq war?

Why didn’t he? There’s your answer.
Matthew Pilott 86

18 September 2008 at 2:02 pm

It wasn’t ignoring it – according to Tim’s hypothetical advice he would realise that we can’t be in all three theatres (Iraq, East Timor and Afghanistan) and Iraq is the more important one. Can’t be MIA, remember. Where America goes, we’d go.

What do you think caused the regression in Afghanistan?
lprent 87

18 September 2008 at 2:08 pm

hs: I miss the national programme. It often seems inane when you’re listening to some obscure author waffling about their latest book. But when you hear the alternatives.

Oh well I stop driving for 2 weeks after friday, and my car will be back at the end.
vto 88

18 September 2008 at 2:15 pm

Iprent, I agree that the Iraq war is wrong on many many fronts, but Clark has just acted like exactly the typical politician – you know, the type that the people know is just making bullshit up to grab a headline. Does nix for the rep of her or any politician.

Anyways, the Press did a comparison based on US troops employed and said on the basis og 60 dead we would have to have sent 15,000 troops! ha ha, we dont even have anything like that number in total.

Why do politicians keep taking the public for fools? Is it because the public take the politicians for fools?

[that’s a totally dishonest comparison that Espiner makes.. The US has cycled a million people through Iraq (actually far fewer, but most of them more than once), it has never had a million there at any one time, most of the time it has had about 100,000. Likewise any NZ deployment would have cycled thousands of troops through but only a smaller number there at any one time. And once again, implicit in what you’re saying vto is that you believe casualties would have been lower and that would have been ok,.. how many dead would have been ok by you? SP]
higherstandard 89

18 September 2008 at 2:15 pm

MP

That’s one alternative – the other alternative is that after receiving that advice from foreign affairs and defence he would have taken it.
Matthew Pilott 90

18 September 2008 at 2:21 pm

Yes HS, that is a possilibility. I was more pointing out that the nice warm fuzzy picture Tim was trying to paint of Key could very well be a figment of his imagination, and that I could paint a nasty picture that is equally plausible. Which makes his comment that there was no basis for Helen’s comment wrong – you can’t say someone else is lying when you’ve made the number of warm fuzzy suppositions Tim had.

And what about the next time the US launches an immoral war for oil supply?

I hope we’re MIA again, but can’t see in under National.
Nomad 91

18 September 2008 at 2:47 pm

Anyways, the Press did a comparison based on US troops employed and said on the basis og 60 dead we would have to have sent 15,000 troops!

How did they get to that?

Total Foreign Troop levels in Iraq = about 180,000

Total casualties = about 5,000

Gives a casualty rate = about 3%

3% of 15,000 is 450.

Someone cannot do some basic arithmetic here.
vto 92

18 September 2008 at 3:00 pm

oh nomad, don’t ask me. i just mindlessly believe and repeat everything i read and hear.
Matthew Pilott 93

18 September 2008 at 3:01 pm

Nomad – Clark’s estimates were based upon a per capita sum. The main flaw being that we don’t have the same number, per capita, in the armed forces as the US. The sums from The Press were based upon the US casualty rate I believe – 4,000 from about 150,000.

Those sums you’ve put forward are interesting though. It would mean NZ would have to deploy 2000 troops to make Clark’s observation accurate. Still pretty high, but not as wildly inaccurate as some would believe.
Tim Ellis 94

18 September 2008 at 3:32 pm

Nomad, those numbers are the total deployed at any one time. Far more than 180,000 people have been deployed to Iraq over that time.

Matthew, let’s break it down. The reality is that when the PM has these requests, they then look at their military options. Let’s say that John Key is the Prime Minister, it is 2003, and George Bush rings him up asking if he can commit troops to Iraq.

He then goes to his Defence Chiefs, and says: “George W wants us to make a contribution. Give me some options.”

His Defence advisors put forward several options:

1. Do nothing. Refuse to commit assistance of any kind, either as part of the coalition of the willing, or the later multinational force.

2. Do nothing now. Remain open to the possibility of committing engineers at a later point as part of a multinational force. Point out our current commitments under UN mandate in Afghanistan and Timor.

3. Commit to deploying committing engineers at a later point as part of a multinational force. Point out our current commitments under UN mandate in Afghanistan and Timor. (The Clark option).

4. Commit to removing the special forces unit from Afghanistan, and redeploying it in Iraq, as well as engineers for reconstruction later. Moving special forces from one theatre to another, doesn’t create greater risk for those soldiers. It just moves the geography. A clear commitment of NZ support to the US on the Iraqi front, but removes its commitment in Afghanistan, to no net benefit to the US. I very much doubt Key would have taken this option. Had he done so, there was a possible risk of an extra five soldiers killed in action, at the absolute maximum. Given they were deployed in a similar threat situation in Afghanistan throughout this time, I think to say even five body bags is stretching credibility.

5. Redeploy an infantry batallion from Timor to Iraq. 400 soldiers. An enormous gesture of support to the US. Yet that leaves Timor abandoned. You say John Key could have done that. I agree, it was possible. Yet Timor has been the biggest commitment New Zealand defence forces have made to any conflict since Vietnam. It is in our sphere of influence. Not even Australia pared back its Timor commitment to put forces into Iraq. Had John Key chosen this option, then maybe ten of them might have been at risk, at the absolute maximum, although even this would have been a far greater fatality rate than any of the other forces deployed by other nations in Iraq.

6. Commit far more than an infantry batallion to Iraq. Make it our single defence policy goal. Send the entire army and the air force. Put our frigates in the Persian Gulf to support them. If Key had done that, then we might see thirty fatalities.

Next, separate from the deployment options, had Key been Prime Minister, he would have had several foreign policy options:

a: Condemn US military action in Iraq. Insult George Bush, and pledge support to Saddam Hussein.

b: Criticise US military action. Refuse to pledge support to Hussein. Express concern on post-invasion reconstruction (The Clark option).

c: Remain neutral on US military action. Express concern about post-invasion reconstruction.

d: Publicly support the US invasion (the Blair/Howard option).

That latter set of foreign policy options are about gestures and signals. There is little doubt that Australia’s free trade agreement with the US was significantly advanced by taking option (d). There’s also little doubt that New Zealand’s free trade prospects with the US were hindered because Helen Clark took option (b).

If John Key had been Prime Minister, it is clear he would have taken foreign policy options (c) or (d). If he had taken the former, then New Zealand would have been in a neutral position on free trade negotiations. If he had taken option (d), then we would have been in a positive position.

Neither of those options involved a threat to New Zealand soldiers in Iraq. They could have been made totally independently of troop commitments.

Helen Clark pulled her numbers out of nowhere. She chose to do it through scare-mongering. Her much-lauded judgement, in my view, was not flawless over the Iraq War. It cost us a free trade agreement. It meant no loss of soldiers’ lives, but I think there was a perfectly feasible approach to limit risks to New Zealand servicemen, as well as achieving foreign policy and trade outcomes.
Matthew Pilott 95

18 September 2008 at 4:43 pm

So you have to ask yourself, Tim, what would Key have done, what would his preferred option be? I’d say somewhere between 5 and 6. Missing in Action is a very strong statement. It’s virtually saying we’re abandoning our allies, and has implications of desertion.

b: Criticise US military action. Refuse to pledge support to Hussein. Express concern on post-invasion reconstruction (The Clark option).

What’s this about Clark refusing to pledge support to Hussein? I’m not aware that she, or New Zealand was asked to do so.

Your further analysis of this completely ignores the negative consequences of (c) or (d). We are not considered part of the ‘coalition of the willing’. We all know what that means. Australia recently arrested an ‘Islamic terror cell’. Over-hyped perhaps, I don’t know the details, but there were also the Kuta Beach bombings, even though they were prior to Iraq. I bet a lot of people sleep a little bit easier knowing that we’re not considered a target, here or abroad.

You’re over-stating the effect of Clark’s single comment that the war wouldn’t have happened if Gore won the election. Is there something else to which you refer when you mention that Clark criticised US action in Iraq? It was not a major gaffe (refreshingly honest to some, here and abroad). Our relations with the US have significantly improved over the last 9 years; it is fatuous to claim one comment cost us an FTA with the US.

An FTA isn’t based upon who said what and to whom, it’s pretty far-fetched to think it would have had any real effect.

New Zealand’s positive contribution to stability in the Pacific, willingness to work with the US where our goals are mutual (i.e. reconstruction in Iraq), improved defence ties and usefully independent foreign policy under Labour will have had a far greater bearing that a single comment from Clark, or a refusal to send in front-line combat troops.

“Helen Clark pulled her numbers out of nowhere. She chose to do it through scare-mongering. ”

Totally false. She used a per-capita calculation. You must know that, must have read that. As I have said above, it was not the best way to work out the cost of defending the US’ access to foreign oil. Nor is it impossible, with a large contribution.

That you think this is primarily about foreign policy and trade outcomes says much. I disagree even on that though. Our foreign policy has not been affected negatively, and our various contributions have been welcomed over the last 5 years. It will take a lot more to get an FTA with the US, that much is clear. Let’s not forget Australia is still part of ANZUS…
Draco T Bastard 96

18 September 2008 at 4:51 pm

Her much-lauded judgement, in my view, was not flawless over the Iraq War. It cost us a free trade agreement.

I prefer it having cost us a FTA with the US than having cost our morality for a FTA with the US. Some things shouldn’t be up for sale to the highest bidder.
randal 97

18 September 2008 at 4:58 pm

somehow johhny boy doesnt look like the type to volunteer himself!
Billy 98

18 September 2008 at 5:39 pm

Billy do you still think that ordinary New Zealanders should be risking their lives in Afghanistan for big oil and the military industrial complex?

I just asked you to stop banging on quite so much about your pet kooky theories. They do not have universal application to any topic we may want to discuss.

I did not say anything about New Zealanders risking their lives. You have made an assumption about me based on your prejudices. Now that’s not very lefty of you, is it?
Tim Ellis 99

18 September 2008 at 5:54 pm

Matthew said:

What’s this about Clark refusing to pledge support to Hussein? I’m not aware that she, or New Zealand was asked to do so.

No, perhaps I wasn’t as clear as I could have been. I used that point to differentiate between options (1) and (2). My point is that there was a scale of options for the Prime Minister to take. Helen Clark did not take the most extreme option. There are a range of measures Helen Clark could have taken, which are probably still in option (1), such as expelling the US ambassador, recalling the New Zealand ambassador, putting in place trade embargoes, ceasing diplomatic relations, declaring war on the US.

I don’t like to make assumptions about what other people think, Matthew, but I think we’ve agreed that there were a range of military options available to the Prime Minister in 2003. We can assume that the advice John Key would have received from officials would have been the same that Helen Clark did receive.

Even if there was a strong political will for New Zealand involvement in Iraq, the viable military options were few: we were already deployed heavily in Timor, our largest involvement in 35 years, and in Afghanistan. We simply couldn’t send a batallion to Iraq. Would John Key have changed military priorities so drastically to do so? I don’t think so.

Could we have sent special forces to Iraq, by redeploying them from Afghanistan? Possibly, but that wouldn’t have been a net benefit to the US. Would John Key have done that? Possibly, as a gesture, but it would not have increased the risk of New Zealand forces, because it simply would have moved their activities from one place to another. I believe John Key’s real military options remained somewhere between points (3) and (4).

Next, when John Key made those statements, he was not the leader of the National Party. He didn’t have the advisers that Helen Clark had. From memory he was the associate Finance spokesman. You can get away with a lot more hyperbole as a backbench opposition MP about what the country should be doing, than you can as Prime Minister when you’re actually in a position to do it. In the mid-90s Phil Goff was calling on New Zealand to cease diplomatic relations with both Indonesia and France. He was the Foreign Affairs spokesperson at the time. The diplomatic consequences of saying those things as an opposition MP are far less serious than if you’re the PM.

In retrospect, I think John Key was wrong to say that we should have committed substantially more troops to Iraq than we did. We just didn’t have the military capacity to do it without drastically changing our military priorities. Had John Key been the Prime Minister at the time, with the advisers around him, and the ability to actually carry things out, I very much doubt he would have made the same claim.

Key’s criticism of Helen Clark’s decision to criticise the US for the invasion was a valid point. You say you don’t think it cost us a trade deal with the US. Maybe it didn’t. It certainly didn’t help improve relations with Washington. In my view, it had a negative impact on those prospects.

I also disagree that Helen Clark did not criticise the US-led invasion. From memory, it was not just a one-off statement about Al Gore’s decision, had he been President. It was quite consistent. For example, in 2003, on the eve of the invasion, Clark said to Parliament

It is a matter of profound regret to us that some of our closest friends have chosen to stand outside the Security Council at this point.

A new and dangerous precedent is being set. It may be possible to justify one’s friends taking such action, but where then is our moral authority when other nations use the precedent which is being set?
randal 100

18 September 2008 at 5:59 pm

is keys still getting hysterical about it. I suppose the thought of actually standing up for your beliefs has unhinged the man?
the sprout 101

18 September 2008 at 6:07 pm

well randal, it would be a lot for a man of his character to deal with.
vto 102

18 September 2008 at 6:26 pm

Mr Pierson, way back up there you asked me how many dead would be a suitable number. I never said or even intimated any such number would be acceptable. All of my points in this thread have been about Clark’s deceiving nature in this matter over numbers. Not about the actual war.

She was right not to go in with the US. She is not right to deceive in her comment yesterday to Grey Power.

[lprent: Chris Trotter popped up the calc http://www.policy.net.nz/blog/?p=808

(The calculation is very simple BTW: US population of 305,149,000 divided by 4,159 US soldiers KIA = 1 fatality for every 73,371 Americans; NZ population of 4,276,100 divided by 73,371= 58 NZ soldiers KIA.)

So she didn’t. You can argue with the factors in the calculation but there was a basis for the value. I wouldn’t called that deceitful. ]
travellerev 103

18 September 2008 at 6:29 pm

Billy,

you are speaking in the royal “we”.
Every day my blog grows in unique visitors. Apparently there are a lot of people who do want to learn more about what happened on that day.

The fact that you call scientific evidence kooky theories without informing yourself says more about you than about me.

I’m sure you don’t go to the links that discredit John Key as a liar and an opportunist either.

This thread is about war and about whether we should be involved or not. Based on my reality I would have to say both wars are illegal, based on lies and to stay in them is a war crime. In fact it is the ultimate war crime; An unprovoked war of aggression.

You may not like what I’m writing but it is pertinent to the topic. My reality is what it is. I personally think you are a dimwit with a very poor grasp of reality but I don’t tell you to shut up with your trolling comments and your typical pakeha middle class bloke remarks. Irritating, ignorant and stupid though they may seem to me.
Billy 104

18 September 2008 at 6:36 pm

My reality is what it is.

Apparently so.
gobsmacked 105

18 September 2008 at 6:41 pm

This was the view of the National Party, as expressed in the Parliamentary debate on Iraq, on the eve of war (March 18, 2003). No National MP dissented, in Parliament or outside.

Defence spokesman Wayne Mapp:

“Today I say this: to support the action led by the United States and Britain is the right course for New Zealand. We do so in National because, in the first instance, that ensures that international law is upheld, even when the United Nations fails to act. But in the second instance, our own interests should tell us to support our traditional friends and allies. Those relationships matter most on the tough issues, and this is assuredly one of the toughest of them all. Our position as a nation will be remembered long after Iraq has a new Government, and we will be judged accordingly.

I conclude by saying that there are times in politics and in the life of a nation when clear decisions have to be made. This is one of those times. Our Government did have the opportunity â€” which it did not take â€” to make the right decision, in which enforcing international law would have coincided with defending our national interests. That is the path of failure.” (Hansard)

(emphasis added)

National supported the invasion. John Key supported the invasion. The real falsehood is not Clark’s hypothetical numbers, but National’s blatant rewriting of history.
Tim Ellis 106

18 September 2008 at 6:46 pm

Gobsmacked, you have highlighted exactly what I’ve said. National did support the US. I haven’t read the Hansard, but there’s nothing in the quote you’ve given us that says National formally committed large numbers of troops to Iraq. They were simply responding to Helen Clark’s opposition to the invasion.

This debate is about how accurate Helen Clark’s claim yesterday, of 60 soldiers returning to New Zealand in body bags. There is nothing I have seen that remotely justifies such an hysterical claim.
travellerev 107

18 September 2008 at 7:09 pm

Billy,

Yep, your typical pakeha middle class male ignoramus.
vto 108

18 September 2008 at 7:30 pm

travellerev, your last comment exposes you as a complete and utter bigot.

i am pakeha (mostly), middle class, male, and proud. so get fucked.
Pascal's bookie 109

18 September 2008 at 8:46 pm

No Tim, The debate remains around judgment, and none of your sophistry changes that.

It’s kind of hilarious though, that you think that our not joining in, and our mild criticisms, were a lost opportunity on the trade front. The war wasn’t about us Tim, and it wasn’t a negotiating tactic on the US’ part. There were other issues involved.

The fact that the whole WMD thing and the international law business, and the Bush doctrine of preventative war, the neocon theories about transforming the ME through democratic reform via enhanced interrogation and high explosive, and a myriad of other considerations pay absolutely no role in your analysis, not a skerrick, nary a sentence, tells me all I need to know about your judgment on the matter.

Jesus wept mate. Helen got it wrong because we didn’t get a trade deal, which you admit anyway was unlikely. Is that it?

You say that the National party wouldn’t have said what they said if they knew better. It wasn’t a bloody secret that we had troops in those other places Tim. It’s not hard to work out what we would have needed to do to fill the promises the Nat’s were making. But they made them anyway. So unless you are saying that they were just politicising the situation for domestic reasons, and that they didn’t really mean it, then that dog won’t hunt.

You quote Clark thus:

It is a matter of profound regret to us that some of our closest friends have chosen to stand outside the Security Council at this point.

A new and dangerous precedent is being set. It may be possible to justify one’s friends taking such action, but where then is our moral authority when other nations use the precedent which is being set?

It’s a good quote. Where do you stand on it’s content Tim? Not the sophistry. Not the domestic politics of it. Not the bloody meagre effect on our non existent free trade negotiations with the US. The content of what Clark said. Agree or disagree?
Steve Withers 110

18 September 2008 at 9:51 pm

This is my primary reason for being utterly unable to vote for the National party.

1. They swallowed Bush’s lies whole.

2. They kept them down.

3. They wanted to whore the lives of Kiwis in Iraq for a possible FTA with the USA….as Wayne Mapp and Simon Power made VERY clear when the PM said we weren’t going to join Bush’s crony capitalist Mid-east gang-bang.

Those two are still on National’s front bench.

They are still the same party. They haven’t changed. Your kids could die so they can better trade arrangements.

Against all the petty smears National throws at Labour, nothing comes close to being as monstrous as the National Party’s actions with respect to Iraq.

It’s laughable watching National try to play the victim in the “dirty campaign” pantomime. They have been smearing Clark about her sexuality, her marriage and every other thing since 2002 non-stop.
dave 111

19 September 2008 at 4:16 am

[lprent: dave (previously known as max) we dislike trolling behavior, attempts to incite flamewars and attacks on the site – you have just done all three. Apart from that people take their chances with other commentators.

This is an attempt to run a re-litigation style flame. It is a classic flamewar starter technique and it wastes my bandwidth. Oh we are not ‘labour’, we support the general labour movement (read the About). That is just a smear that Whale and other fools like to put around because they are incapable of participating in discussion here. It is a excuse and a figleaf for their lack of debating abilities.

You are now banned for a week. Argue and I’ll happily increase it and I like increasing it rapidly.

For the benefit of anyone who’d like to know, the moron repeated his entire previous comment stream. Obviously couldn’t find anything new in that tiny mind to write about. ]
T-rex 112

19 September 2008 at 6:23 am

Dear. Sweet. Christ.

1) Clarks numbers: It is beyond contestation that the METHODOLOGY was sh*t. No one with a vague grasp of… well… anything really, can debate that. Calling her desperately misleading and disingenious is just basic mudslinging though – do you really think she came up with them herself? Late at night in the office calculating away? Don’t be ridiculous.

You can take it as a given that someone, quite rightly, decided it would be good to draw attention to the fact that Key supported the iraq invasion (as distinct from the subsequent UN sanctioned intervention) on account of how it provides damning evidence of his total failure to grasp the important elements of the situation. In highlighting the numerous follies of Keys would-have-been decision, someone (may well even have been Clark) said “hey, how many soliders might we have lost if we HAD gone for it?”. So someone who should never have been left anywhere near a calculator went away and performed some fundamentally flawed maths, and came up with 60 or whatever.

Who the F*CK cares? Some people probably would have died, and whether it is 60 or 6 or ZERO makes no damn difference to the folly of the decision. It just helps give an immediately personal sense of the possible tragedy, which DOES help when trying to gauge the magnitude of something that happened on the other side of the earth.

All of the debate over how best to calculate the number of likely deaths is essentially just a distraction from the fact that…

2) KEY SUPPORTED THE WAR, AND BY IMPLICATION THE INTENT OF THE WAR, AND WANTED NZ TROOPS IN THE THICK OF IT.

Unless someone wants to argue that he didn’t support the intent of the war, but was supporting the war anyway because he has no scruples or standards and didn’t really care whether it was right or wrong because he just wanted in on the old boys club.

If being involved in the war was right, it would have been right even if we’d lost 100 soldiers (as was illustrated in WW2). If it was wrong, it would be wrong even if we’d lost no soldiers.

It is safe to say it’s wrong considering it was:
1) Not sanctioned by the UN
2) Based on flaky evidence that later proved to be complete fabrication
3) Undertaken against the advice of even top ranking US generals.
4) Lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths, expected to total in the millions by the time externalities are completed

—

The wannabe sidekick who would be our Prime Minister thought it was a good idea anyway.
Not because of moral imperatives, global security, likelyhood of a net benefit for the countries involved, or ANY of the REAL reasons a country should go to war.
Just because he wanted to be best-friends-forever with the USA and, to a lesser extent, the UK. He would effectively have sacrificed our autonomy on the basis of THAT.
I can just imagine him in the principals office after school.

Principal: Ok John, beating up Danny Parker doesn’t seem like the kind of thing a smiling young man such as yourself would be into – what’s going on? What’d he do to make you jump in with the other guys like that?

JK: His name was Danny? Interesting. Well anyway, he bought some lollies at the canteen and wouldn’t give any to Barry Whitmore, because Barry Whitmore beat him up LAST week, so Barry Whitmore and Andrew Lowell decided to beat him up to teach him a lesson, and Andrew Lowell’s dad has a REALLY nice boat and so I thought maybe if I helped then Andrew would invite me on it at Christmas. So, you see, I didn’t want to but really I had to!

—

That’s all that matters.
Key would have got in a fight for no real reason other than he wanted to be friends with the instigator. That makes him a morally bankrupt coward.

I IMPLORE you to stop debating Clarks numbers. Lets accept the methodology that delivered them sucked and move on.
Considering the flawed reasoning in some of the above “corrections” I don’t think it’s a good thing to dwell on. It’s what happens when you give a calculator and some basic data to someone who understands neither the problem nor statistical analysis and demand that they produce an answer. I see it at least twice a week in mainstream news and have just got over it.
T-rex 113

19 September 2008 at 6:28 am

Matt: “An FTA isn’t based upon who said what and to whom,”

Ironically, however, that’s basically how National hope to get one. “Please pretty please give us an FTA, it won’t cost you very much and we’ll be your best friends and it’ll make everyone else think you’re easy going and cool”.

Tim: You’re presenting the fact that it might have cost us an FTA as an argument against. I’d say;
1) So what? If that’s the case, it’s a price I’ll gladly pay – anything else is bloody money (or blood deferred-expense if you prefer).
2) You really think so? We weren’t going to get an FTA before the end of 2008 anyway, and it’s very possible Obama will be the next president. Black guy, talks well… opposed the Iraq War.

Frankly, it makes me sad that you don’t feel pride when you read Clarks comments to parliament on the eve of the invasion. I think she was spot on.
T-rex 114

19 September 2008 at 6:37 am

Oh, and finally (again – Tim)
“My instinct is that the advice he would have received, had he been PM, from Foreign Affairs and Defence advisers would have been not to commit troops to Iraq. We were already stretched to capacity in Afghanistan and Timor.”

That is, again, totally irrelevant. Desire to go to war and ability to go to war may lead to totally different outcomes, but the only one that’s relevant in the context of assessing fitness to govern is desire.

Surely it doesn’t bring you any comfort that we might not have gone anyway because we were committed elsewhere? I mean is that what you’re banking on – that we’ll be so heavily committed elsewhere that the ambitions (heheh) resulting from Keys incompetence and bad judgement will go unrealised? Maybe Labour should commit to UN sanctioned missions throughout Africa over the next 3 years in advance just in case…

And FINALLY – Vto. With you 100%.
travellerev 115

19 September 2008 at 7:47 am

vto and T-rex,

I count you among the same typical pakeha middle class blokes as Billy so like wise with the “get fucked” (you wish probably) and as far as bigoted is concerned I think you guys and Billy of course invented it. Close minded, ignorant and firmly embedded in the white male supremacy paradigm. LOL.

Oh, and as far as the FTA is concerned, why would you want a FTA with a bankrupt country?

Perhaps Helen Clark knew something when she decided to go with China.

And hey T-rex,

did you know that thermal expansion of one beam in a building reinforced twice to withstand a nuclear blast can bring it down into its own footprint in 6.5 seconds according to NIST?

Yep, a little office fire, a little thermal expansion of one big fat steel beam and gabamba gone, 47 floors of steel reinforced concrete turns into powder in just 6.5 seconds.

Completely new phenomenon. NIST just found it; thermal expansion. Awesome eh?

This is of course the same NIST involved in the development of a military demolition explosive called Nano-thermite prior to 2001.

But no, no, no don’t tell me there might be a slight conflict of interest there.

NIST is a sacred, all good institute which will always deliver an impartial scientific judgement even though they are a government institute and that government by your own standards is a corrupt, lying, warmongering bunch of thugs, hell bent on getting control over the oil fields in the middle east.

NIST would never give in to their thuggish murdering scum bosses.

Mate, you believe that you’ll believe anything and I have a couple of bridges you might want to buy.
travellerev 116

19 September 2008 at 7:51 am

LOL
higherstandard 117

19 September 2008 at 8:27 am

Eve if there’s someone who’ll believe anything it’s your fine self tulip.

Too many of those cakes in Amsterdam methinks.
travellerev 118

19 September 2008 at 8:48 am

HS,

Yep. Another pakeha middle class closed minded bloke firmly embedded in the white supremacy paradigm. Sleep on mate. Oh no, make that dream on and let’s hope it doesn’t turn into a nightmare, what with the Western worlds Finance collapsing around your tender sunburn prone ears, eh?

I wear the name Tulip with immense pride coming from thicko’s like you and just about the only people who smoke dope or eat funny cakes are tourists didn’t you know?
higherstandard 119

19 September 2008 at 9:07 am

Yes we’re all white middle class supremacists quite right.

Have a nice day dear.
travellerev 120

19 September 2008 at 9:23 am

HS,

Let me narrow that down to Anglo-Saxon supremacist.
Like in the Anglo-Saxon western world were the white male descendants of the mongrel nation England think that a world ruled by them is the only world worth living in and everybody else is there to serve the big Anglo-Saxon empire and if they don’t you just bomb the shit out of them and call it “democratising” and “liberating”. Moron.
randal 121

19 September 2008 at 9:23 am

tell me hs if you would be the first to go?
Matthew Pilott 122

19 September 2008 at 9:25 am

Trav, at risk of being another bigoted white middle class idiot with my head in the sand, I’m also getting mighty sick of your threadjacking and abuse.

What you are doing is basically rude – insisting that the debate be on your terms. Guess what – this debate isn’t about thermite, 9/11, the collapse of the US’ financial system or DU. Please have the decency to leave us to it; if it’s not what you want to talk about, talk elsewhere.

For the record I find some of what you say interesting, and the first few times I was willing to read it, we even had a chat about DU at one stage. But the 40th time…
Vanilla Eis 123

19 September 2008 at 9:26 am

Eve: Thermite is hardly new to the world of science (For military purposes, perhaps you’re thinking of Thermate?) Neither is thermal expansion. In fact… no, I can’t be bothered.

Did you even read T-Rex’s last couple of posts before telling him so eloquently to fuck off? He made an excellent and, importantly, on-topic point about why we shouldn’t go to war, but you’re so mired in the fact that he disagrees with you about 9/11 that you don’t even take the time to address his post.

You’re showing Rex considerably less respect than he gave you when he took the time to debate (at great length) the 9/11 collapses.

Stop trying to drag threads off topic, it’s frustating to watch and doesn’t get you anywhere either.

p.s: As a lower-class pakeha, I’m also offended when you start labelling us broadly. vto is right – just because it’s aimed at white people doesn’t mean it isn’t bigotry.
higherstandard 124

19 September 2008 at 9:27 am

Randal

In Eve’s delightful little world ……. Yes Randal I would be happy to be the first to go.

The poor dear is nuttier than squirrel poo !

[lprent: I’ve never seen a squirrel, let alone their crap – relevance?]
Vanilla Eis 125

19 September 2008 at 9:34 am

And MP beat me to it…
higherstandard 126

19 September 2008 at 9:41 am

Lynn

Nuttier …… than squirrel poo.

Feck I give up and Tane accused righties of not having a sense of humour !
coge 127

19 September 2008 at 9:57 am

Hey Trav, (to quote Owen Glenn), what time is your flight leaving?
travellerev 128

19 September 2008 at 10:51 am

Matthew Pilot,

It takes a long time for me to call someone a bigot or an idiot. It usually happens when people like Billy or HS troll without actually adding to the debate. I am white myself and I don’t judge every pakeha. In fact most of my friends are pakeha while as a maori friend of mine explained to me in fine detail pakeha’s are part of the NZ human landscape I am just a toa iwi. (foreigner) LOL.

So please, don’t feel offended if I single out a small group of bigoted commentators here whom I feel are patronising and act as if they have the right to decide who engages here and how.

This thread is about war; should we be involved and with how many and whether John Key would have us taken to Iraq.
While I have no doubt about the fact that John Key would have done exactly that, what bothers me is that for some reason most of you seem to think that the Iraq war is bad and the Afghanistan war is good.

I just happen to have a different outlook on both wars.

I think they are both bad, illegal and genocidal.

I do so because after three long years of 8 hours a day study I have come to the conclusion that it would have been impossible for three buildings to have come down in freefall speed into their own footprint just because they were hit by two planes in the two towers designed to take the impact of just such a hit.

Which means that perhaps we have been conned into an illegal war of aggression.

I don’t want to force a 911 discussion as such but I am entitled to that opinion and if someone challenges me I think that within reason I’m entitled to meet that challenge because if I’m correct than Afghanistan is also an illegal war of aggression and New Zealand should not be involved in that one either. In fact it would make Helen Clark and Phil Goff eligible for their day in court in the Haque.

Added to that I have questions about the use of DU in both countries.
For example if we are in Afghanistan to catch Osama bin Laden (the big baddy in the 911 myth after all) or to help the country rebuild or to free the poor oppressed women then why is New Zealand (fervently anti nuclear if I remember correctly) involved in this war while our coalition partner the US is bombing the country back to the stone age with more than 2000 tons of DU.

What is so liberating or good about that and why are you guys not asking those same questions?
Why is nobody asking what the heck we are still in Afghanistan for. Osama only shows up when the US government needs to scare the shit out of its citizens. Nobody is looking for him and in fact he is not even on the FBI most wanted list because there is not enough evidence.
The plight of women is even worse than under the Taliban and in fact the Taliban is resurging and stronger than ever.

I am all for putting the Iraq war on the election agenda but while we’re at it let’s have a second look at the Afghan war as well, eh.

Matthew, I think I am entitled to engage in the discussion from this point of view. To tell me not to engage in a discussion based on the fact that my world view is different to yours because I introduce elements in the discussion you don’t like to look at is, excuse me, insisting the debate is on your terms.

Now most of the people debating or commenting here are from Anglo- Saxon descent. You probably all have a strong sense of bonding with the US, Australia and the UK. You share your ancestry with these countries after all but I don’t.

My history books were different from yours. Where I grew up I was taught that while archduke Franz Ferdinand was indeed shot in Sarajevo this was not the real reason for the beginning of the second world war. One of the real reasons was the fact that Germany was building an oil pipeline to the middle east and that had to be stopped.
We were also taught that Germany instigated “False flag” incidents to get into war with Poland and to get the German people ready for war.
So the Dutch having lived through the second WW are very aware of the deviousness of governments. You see the difference?

We learned to take a step back from our rulers and became a lot more distrustful of them.

Now let’s take another step back; The Bush family financed Hitler and made money from the slave labour in Auschwitz
In fact Prescott Bush Georges grandfather actively sought to perpetrate a fascist coup on the USA in 1933.

I’m sure that was not in your history books either.

So to get back to the thread; Helen Clark upset a great many people by suggesting that John Key would have taken NZ to Iraq because the NZ population thinks that Iraq is a bad war.

Knowing what I know and assuming people want to learn all there is to learn to make a sound judgement I inserted my point of view based on that knowledge into the debate.

The debate about Iraq is good but Helen can not debate Iraq only because it gives her political advantage over John Key without some people (like me) saying, “Hang on Helen while we are discussing Iraq what about the other one “the forgotten one” the one we are officially involved in, the one were our coalition partners are shooting the crap out civilians with more than 2000 tonnes of DU contaminating that country for the next 4.5 billion years while we the NZ punters are told that we are good little partners of our big brother who just happen to be ruled by a family of Nazi sympathisers.”

You see were I’m coming from?
travellerev 129

19 September 2008 at 11:24 am

Vanilla Eis,

Did you check the link about NIST and their connection to Nanothermite?

Yes, thermate is old news but with the development of Nano technology NIST scientists have come up with incendiaries that are so volatile, hot and explosive that even mixed in a gel and sprayed on steel it can cause the steel to melt instantly when ignited.
And that was developed prior to 911 by them and they did not even entertain the notion that an explosion might be the cause of the collapse. Why? because nobody witnessed explosions loud enough. How is that for a scientific approach? The fact of the matter is there was ample evidence of explosions just before the collapse nd even before the first tower collapsed. Check out my blog if your interested.

Yes, thermal expansion is as old as the world. In fact I use it to open jam jars etc. by holding the jar under the hot tap. What is new about it though is that a relatively small office fire was able to heat up one massive beam in a structure reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast and to cause it’s collapse in 6.5 seconds into a pyroclastic flow of dust into it’s own footprint.

And yes, I read T-rex’s complete post and I agree with him on this topic. But I did not tell him to get fucked. I just returned the pleasure because he agreed with vto about me getting fucked.

T-rex claims he’s a Physicist which means he should understand the laws of Newton and should be able to distinguish when they are violated. Buildings don’t collapse in freefall speed into their own footprint due to thermal expansion after a relatively cold office fire. The fires burned in different places all day warming some places up and cooling in other places never heating up the steel more than a couple of hundred degrees not enough to cause the collapse but making it impossible to place explosives to be placed that Larry Silverstein claimed they “pulled” the with.

So, if 19 young Arabs could not have done this no matter how crazed they were than why are we attacking oil rich Arab countries?

Why is it easier for us to believe 19 young Arabs were able to do the impossible and it is OK for us to destroy their countries than take the time and ask for a new and independent investigation?

Why do I write here? I want to debate with the people here because this is a political site with people trying to make sense out of the political landscape they live in. We are heading for one of the most important elections this country has ever seen and I want to get things on the political agenda.
For example I want this country out of Afghanistan. I want the NZ troops save and home.
I don’t want politicians like Helen Clark or John Key making political hay out of the destruction of any country and I want to have the Afghanistan debacle and monstrosity of DU on the political agenda and if you have any decency you should too.
lukas 130

19 September 2008 at 11:33 am

for those of you wanting a readers digest version of the above two comments… Bush blew up the towers then dumped uranium on his own troops.

John Key is to blame for all of this as he has a holiday home in a small island in the Pacific.
Vanilla Eis 131

19 September 2008 at 11:48 am

Eve: no, I didn’t check out the NIST site, because I came to this thread looking for a discussion about NZ’s political motivations for entering or avoiding the Iraq war. I’m not terribly interested in 9/11, and I’m certain that many do not share your unbridled enthusiasm. This is why they do not appreciate your thread-jacking as much as you might like, and leads to frayed tempers and name calling.

Please, leave the 9/11 stuff to threads about 9/11 (Amazingly, I don’t think I’ve seen a single one, but I know I’ve read maybe close to 100 posts from you on the topic) and post relevant political things in the relevant political threads.

Lynn appears to be far more tolerant than many of the other posters here.
travellerev 132

19 September 2008 at 12:08 pm

OK VE,

We’ll just take a few minor events like two bloody great big wars totally out of context and discuss them shall we.

In blissful ignorance about the historical context and firmly believing that all Arabs are our enemies and deserve what they get because Oh, wait a minute yeah, they attacked us on 911. So it’s ok to use 911 as an excuse to destroy ancient countries and their peoples under the guise of bringing freedom and democracy while bombing the fuck out off them with DU but we will not examine that day to make sure that what we are doing is actually justified.

Sounds like a plan mate.

And while you lot do that a little under 1300 people visited my site yesterday and what did they want to learn most about? Ooh oops, New Zealand’s role in Afghanistan and the events of 911. And many of them came via this site. So perhaps you don’t give a fuck but there are plenty who actually do. On sites like this only a handful of people actually bother to comment but trust me this site has plenty of lurkers and they are curious and it seems pretty open minded.

And who knows VE (your name always conjures up that bland white rapper from way back) perhaps Lynn is one of them.

And thank you for reading all my posts who knows something might actually stick one day.
lukas 133

19 September 2008 at 12:11 pm

Eve- how did VE’s comment say that at all? Way to read something into it thats not there
higherstandard 134

19 September 2008 at 12:12 pm

Danger danger don’t engage don’t engage !
travellerev 135

19 September 2008 at 12:22 pm

Neh, HS

Can’t be bothered. He’s such a runt. Just like I won’t bother with you.
lukas 136

19 September 2008 at 12:28 pm

….how do you know that? Are they watching me and feeding you information? Maybe I should head to the cafe downstairs and borrow their stash of tin foil and wrap the walls of my office in it?

sigh.
Vanilla Eis 137

19 September 2008 at 1:01 pm

Eve: … and you totally missed my point.

If you want people to read your site, then link to it in your name (which you do) and make partial posts here, with a link to the rest of the post. It’s still threadjacking, but it’s a bit less intrusive.

This post was not about 9/11, or even related. It was about whether or not it is right for NZ to follow the US into a war to strengthen our relationship. The justification for Iraq was never that Saddam supported the 9/11 bombers, so there’s no need for you to bring it up.

Instead, you could perhaps write a post about how the US continually fuck over any country they sign a FTA with, and why the hell would we want one anyway?

vto, HS and Rex told you to ‘fuck off’ because you’re distracting from the debate. They’re frustrated that we cannot even broach a topic like this without a barrage from you. You might notice that they don’t manage to agree with each other on anything other than the fact that your 9/11 conspiracy posts are annoying.

So, please, just stop ramming this stuff down our throats. Fine, make small posts occasionally to get your site some traffic, but I don’t even want to count the number of words you’ve left behind on this page that most people will skip as soon as they see your name.
rave 138

19 September 2008 at 1:01 pm

Trav:
Yeah I bet Key would have used the same arguments, that war with Iraq in the last analysis was necessary as part of the war on terror. 9/11 gave them the moral high ground to get into genocide. Hypocrites.
And Key would have been in like Saakashvili with thousands of troops to suck up to Bush. That historical scenario precedes any debate about how many body bags might have eventuated.

The righties here while backing Key know that the body count is what turns people against wars. They don’t ask questions when a few almost accidental deaths occur (like the Aussie who shot himself) or about wars authorised by the UN, but 60 body bags, that’s embarrassing, that has to be explained.

OK so let’s work back in history from today cause that’s when the election is. Key’s now ambivalent on the war, he even thinks its over. Therefore, he probably wouldve been advised not to go (he might have listened to Rodney). Anyway, if he did go, it would have been proportional to Aust, therefore our body count would have to be proportional, i.e. none.

So thanks for the history lesson. Especially Franz Ferdinand. They were wars for oil even then.
travellerev 139

19 September 2008 at 2:05 pm

Lucas,

What a strange thing to be contemplating, I use tinfoil for BBQ’s and covering food etc.

VE

VE, HS, Lucas, vto and to a somewhat lesser extend T-rex, yeah you really represent the Standard and it’s readers. A bunch of self-righteous pendantic twits who can barely manage one sentence and who slam on anyone with a different point of view. Not.

Read my answer to Matthew Pilot as to why I write here and it’s not because I want people to read my blogs. That is just a bonus.

I find the energy you put in trying to shut me up equally annoying but since some readers here actually think that my research and links count for something I hope that you don’t mind that for the time being I’ll just continue what I’m doing and ignore your bullying.

vto and T-rex told me to get fucked because I dared to call Billy a typical pakeha middle class bloke and vto took offence to that and so did T-rex.

What is it with guys like you and Billy that keeps you talking in the royal “we” anyway. I don’t know anybody on this site so I won’t presume there is many of “we” on my side. I just write and sometimes I get good feedback and sometimes bad but you guys always make it about we the many and you the lone nut to shut people up.

I approach our involvement in the Afghan and Iraq war from the point of view that 911 wasn’t committed by 19 Arabs because it was scientifically impossible and therefore both wars are illegal and genocidal and all who partake are committing the ultimate war crime; Both wars are illegal first strike wars of aggression and the perpetrators should therefore be send to the Hague and tried accordingly. That was what the Nuremberg trials were all about.

Since according to my point of view the responsible ones probably were part of the Pentagon and criminal factions within the US government, cooperation with them is criminal and whether we do so for personal gain in free trade agreements (with a bankrupt country?) or idealism is neither here nor there.

The wars play out as for profit and we should therefore pull back our troops. To continue to cooperate with parties who destroy and kill for personal gain is criminal in it self and for Helen Clark to use the war in Iraq to gain political points on John Key is disingenuous and dishonest but she can only do so because Kiwi’s generally still believe that we are the good guys in Afghanistan.

You may or may not like my point of view but to tell me to not speak from that point of view just because you don’t believe it or because you don’t care or you don’t want to be confronted by the fact that millions of people everyday wake up to the inconsistencies in the official version because their governments allow documentaries to be shown on TV or their media are more independent than ours(20 million Russians saw Zero 911, and Italian documentary on the 11th of this month for example Italians have produced many 911 documentaries but than they had the CIA organise Gladio and bomb attacks in their country to content with) and are given information about the deceit on that day world wide via their TV’s and media except in the Anglo-Saxon countries, is asking me to censor myself.

It’s like saying you can only talk if you talk in my paradigm and that means you are behaving like a little boy with fingers in his ears and yelling at the top of his voice, “I can’t hear you” when told something you don’t want to hear.
Nobody is forcing you to read what I write so just get over yourself OK and stop behaving like a child.

Thanks Rave,

McCain and that creepy Palin were chosen to run with a video of the towers burning in the background. Sick, absolutely sick.
And John Key’s remark about the Iraq war being over just shows what a political debacle his foreign policy would be. Yuk.
T-Rex 140

19 September 2008 at 8:32 pm

“I do so because after three long years of 8 hours a day study”

I can’t decide if that’s more hillarious or depressing. I think it’s depressing.

—

To others above – thanks for the support. HS is on the mark though, refusal to engage is the only thing that works, ALL attempts to reason have, thus far, been TOTALLY ignored. I could make a list as long as my arm of insults and denial of established facts. And that’s if I used some sort of microfiche – in #8 font it would stretch the length of a street.

Don’t play with the tantrum child! It will bring no good to your soul or sanity! Learn from my incredibly ill-advised sacrifice of time and energy! Follow the teachings of the great and wise Bill Brown who did say unto me “T-Rex : Zip it”.

Bill: I’m a-zippin’. One day I may acheive Zen 🙂
travellerev 141

20 September 2008 at 2:11 am

T-rex,

Buildings reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast do not collapse in 6.5 sec due to an office fire, it is that simple.

Established facts my ass. deuh, Thermal expansion?

You claim to be a physicist do the math, do your job, you dimwit.
higherstandard 142

20 September 2008 at 8:30 am

Dear Tulip

Very few office fires have been started by airliners flying into buildings while loaded with fuel.

Have you ever heard of gravity apparently it exists.

Danger danger don’t engage.
Go The Right 143

20 September 2008 at 8:58 am

Great work done here by The Kiwiblog crew just showing how low Helen will go to remain in Power. We all expect her to dredge some of these up next.
Why is Key so silent on that day in Dallas on the grassy knoll and what was he up to in Sarajevo in 1914?
John Key disabled the warning signal at Tangiwai.
John Key has been known to mix formula milk at home,
Financing Osama BinLaden whilst at Merrill Lynch
Members of the Manson cult are also known to have celebrated John Key’s 8th birthday by slaughtering Sharon Tate and others
John Key was also seen leaving Cape Canaveral prior to the launch of Challenger, with an o-ring hanging out of his briefcase.
He was smoking a cigar on the Hindenburg too.
I understand he was seen near a hill outside Jerusalem one Easter over 2000 years ago carrying a hammer and three nails as well. However,
He was also seen fiddling with the hatch of Apollo 1
It was JK that gave Greg Chappell the idea
Add up the Ascii values of the characters “John KEY’ and you get 664. makes John Key the neighbour of the Beast
John Key shot Bambi’s mum
Does he have an alibi for September 10 2001? Has anyone in the MSM thought to check?
At the 1995 Rugby World Cup, dressed as a waitress called Suzie, John Key
it was not the Grinch who stole Christmas. Indeed it was John Key.
John Key is actually Elvis. He faked his own death to join the National Party.
John Key dumped all his shares in Union Carbide in November 1984
John Key framed Roger Rabbit. And Winston.
A JohnKey stole my baby!’ not a dingo

[lprent: Tell me – do you understand how to link? Read the FAQ. There is really no need to copy and paste except to illustrate a point. ]
T-Rex 144

20 September 2008 at 9:13 am

“John Key shot Bambi’s mum”

That one’s true – the rifling on the bullet matches the one pulled from JFK.
travellerev 145

20 September 2008 at 9:49 am

HS,

WTC 7 was not hit by an airplane you fuckwit.
Gravity is actually a very weak force and can easily be withstood by a light weight bird.
It does not collapse reinforced to withstand nuclear blasts buildings after an office fire. Oh, and these are the exlosions preceding the collapse and funny enough firemen apparently knowing that the building was being pulled.

T-rex you’re a smart man, look at it and show me were you think I’m going wrong. You’re a physicist do your job.

And guess what pathetically called “gotheright” your John Key was managing “debt” in 1999 when the subprime crisis was born and prepared and he was happily advising Alan Greenspan as a rep for Merrill Lynch together with guys from Citigroup, UBSWarburg, Lehman Bros, Ooh oops, the four banks most affected so far by the financial collapse of the western world.
travellerev 146

20 September 2008 at 10:12 am

Oh HS,

The planes were not fully loaded with Kerosene and most off it burned of in the first few seconds. HS I don’t expect you to understand you simply don’t possess enough brains but T-rex, black smoke, you physicist you, black smoke coming from a fire?

Ever tried to cook on LPG on a LNG (Liqued natural gas) stove? Soot baby soot. Lots of soot.
Black yukky stuff in the dish washing machine. A Cold fire. An inefficient fuel to air ratio, you numbskull.

Office fires, even badly burning ones started by Kerosene, do not bring down steel reinforced skyscrapers in freefall (10 and 11 seconds) clouds of pyroclastic flows.

And to get back to the thread: We should not be involved in the wars that were started as a result of 911 because it was an inside job. It was a false flag operation that killed two New Zealanders amongst others.

Out fishing and whitebaiting today dear baiters, hope you can wait until sundown for more real world info. LOL.
RedLogix 147

20 September 2008 at 11:32 am

Even when the 911 Commissioners themselves repudiated the very investigation they had presided over as “set up to fail”…. most people still could not bring themselves to admit to even the tiniest bit of doubt about the report and still refer to it as authoritative. Still to this day refuse to examine or even debate the hundreds of questions and contradictions in the official story.

The hard, weird reality is that no matter what evidence comes to light, most people have too much psychologically invested in the official story to ever abandon it now.
higherstandard 148

20 September 2008 at 12:04 pm

Tulip

I think you must have been smoking your own dung again.

WTC7 was not hit by any airplanes but there does tend to be considerable damage caused when two of the worlds largest skyscrapers collapse next door – it’s a bugger that gravity !

Add to that the fires that were going on and you get a recipe for a collapse.

Black smoke is likely to have been caused by combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper.

Red Logix I think you mistake healthy scepticism with over paranoia !

In any situation one needs to ask what’s the more likely answer. A group of nuts who decided to hijack jet liners and fly them into buildings or a conspiracy which involved the US government being complicit in hijacking jet liners and murdering their own citizens.

Eve has embedded herself in her own belief set which is fine but she should keep it to her own blog where people actually want to discuss it …. or not.
randal 149

20 September 2008 at 12:25 pm

hs is there any possibility that you could refrain from insulting everybody you disagree with?
higherstandard 150

20 September 2008 at 1:29 pm

Randal are you HS ?
Felix 151

20 September 2008 at 4:08 pm

We’re all pretty much accustomed to your condescending attitude Dr higherstandard, but why the racist slur “Tulip”?

Bit off even for you isn’t it?
travellerev 152

20 September 2008 at 4:46 pm

HS,

Your ignorance is truly staggering.

According to NIST there was no damage to speak of and no steel framed building has ever before or after 911 collapsed due to fire even though there have been fires much hotter. According to NIST it was the thermal expansion of one beam which caused the building to collapse in freefall speed into pulverised concrete into it’s own footprint in 6.5 seconds. They usually pay millions to have this done with controlled demolition but I guess all we need is a little fossil fuel and a BIC lighter from now on.

The Twin towers also collapsed into pulverised dust and WTC 7 was in the outer debris field with many other buildings which did not collapse. Some of these buildings are still standing and are to toxic to be taken down. Three years after the attacks bone fragments were found on the roof of Deutsche bank 60 meters away from were the towers had stood. Gravity does not blow bone fragments everywhere.

A building twice reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast (Giuliani’s bunker was housed in the building) does not collapse into fine dust because some file cabinets caught on fire.
Listen to Barry Jennings who died mysteriously two days before the NIST rapport was made public and who told the world of the explosions inside the WTC 7 before the either of the Towers collapsed. He was not alone that day. He was with Michael Hess on his way to Giuliani’s bunker who confirmed the story that Jennings told.
travellerev 153

20 September 2008 at 4:47 pm

RedLogic

You know what is so surprising is the fact that most people now more than ever seem to wake up from the fear induced that day.

Around the world there are huge groups going out the 11th of every month to give information and 80% of Americans now want a new and independent investigation.

In New York activists have collected 30.000 signatures to get a new investigation going and they did so with the help of celebrities such a Governor Jesse Ventura, Willie Nelson, Green presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney, Christine Ebersole, Sen. Mike Gravel, Daniel Sunjata(rescue me), State Senator Karen Johnson to name a few.

We have been told by journalists that 911 is officially taboo on NZTV 1 and 2 and may not be discussed even though the journalists we spoke to want to put some of the documentaries on.

On the 11th of September 20 million Russians watched a mainstream Italian documentary called Zero 911. this film has been shown to Italians on mainstream TV and a lot of European senders.

It is just that in New Zealand all the major media is either foreign owned or state controlled and you have dimwits like HS who thinks he knows it all.

By the way if you want to know how most of the families of those who perished in the towers feel about the 911 (all of whom had ties to the military industrial complex) commission you could watch 911 Press for truth about four republican Bush voting 911 widows and their heart wrenching quest to find out what happened on that day and how they had to fight to even get the 911 commission formed.
T-Rex 154

20 September 2008 at 6:33 pm

To clarify my position – I’m not claiming that no element or affiliate of the US government was involved in orchestrating the 9/11 attacks. It’s possible, motive and opportunity both exist, and it’s quite possible we’ll never know for sure.

Trav, I’m not arguing with you, I’ve done so at great length before and got nowhere because you are completely close minded and have spent (as you say above) 3 years at 8 hours a day entrenching yourself in the mindset you’ve picked. In that time you could have done an engineering degree and would actually understand the arguments you are making (and their flaws) but instead you mindlessly recite mantras such as “6.4 seconds” and “pyroclastic flow” as though they somehow lend credibility to your argument – all the while ignoring the obvious (such as, especially in the case of wtc 1 and 2, video evidence). So, there’s nothing to be gained by arguing the point with you.

So far, the only thing I agree on you about is DU, which is nasty shit (but that’s nothing unusual in war). However, the US has not “bombed the sh*t” out of anyone with it – DU is used for kinetic penetrators, rarely present in bombs. Just to be clear on the cause of gulf war syndrome though – it’s heavy metal toxicity, not radioactivity. I’m only mentioning this because radioactivity is what people usually associate with uranium.

“Gravity does not blow bone fragments everywhere.”

Please please just stop. You honestly have no idea what you’re talking about at all and it’s painful. Go back and read all that stuff I wrote so long ago about energy dissipated in the tower falling that far and dispute it if you can ON THAT THREAD. And with REASONING, not buzzwords and emotive rants.

For what it’s worth, I think the lifestyle you’ve chosen sounds great and is probably good for the world, I just hope you stop spending so much time on a pointless web crusade one day. Especially in consideration of the fact that:
1) Your car still doesn’t run on water,
2) You’re becoming that which you claim to hate (you’re rude, you ignore facts, and you try to shout down and insult anyone who disagrees with you while using “oppressed persons” language to defend your actions).

So far every single time I raise a valid point you just completely ignore the implications (and it’s happened often enough to be statistical certainty), so you must be able to understand my reluctance to try again.

Especially since there are mountains to be explored.

Adios
higherstandard 155

21 September 2008 at 9:16 am

Felix can you tell me what other flowers are racist slurs so I can avoid hurting your delicate sensibilities.
travellerev 156

21 September 2008 at 1:10 pm

T-rex,

About our fuel cell: On the 10th of September I drove with a full tank of gas from somewhere near Hamilton to Wellington. I arrived at Wellington with 620 km on the clock and still above the empty line.
My car used to have a maximum range of 450km. That makes for a 170 km increase and I could have driven a lot longer. On the 12th I drove back and arrived at my home with 580 km on the clock and the day after we drove an additional 70 km before we filled her up again. The gauge had only just touched the empty mark. I don’t know about you but that is good mileage in my book and all that with the help of a little bit of water.

About the closed mind thing on 911. I did not choose a mindset. it took me about a year and a half to accept that 19 young men could not have done what the US government claimed they had done and another 1.5 years to read watch whatever material I could find to be sure I had come to the right conclusion.

About the you don’t know what your talking about bit the following. Whatever, you physicist you, the man who doesn’t comprehend Newtons laws of motion and believes that the amount of energy needed to pulverise three huge steel framed buildings in freefall speed of 6.5, 10 and 11 sec could come from two not fully fuelled planes.

Regardless of what you think it is very important; the time it takes to pulverise buildings into their own footprint.
People used to pay millions to have buildings blown up with that kind of precision. I guess they must feel pretty ripped off knowing now that all it really takes is a couple of office fires and and the thermal expansion of just one beam to collapse a 47 floor skyscraper reinforced twice to withstand a nuclear blast into a pile of dust into its own footprint in just 6.5 seconds. LOL.

Any way you may think I’m stupid but I’m in bloody good company with scholars, architects and engineers, Fire fighters, pilots, militaryand other US patriots all wanting a new and independent investigation whereas you have to do with losers like HS and Billy, oh and that other nitwit, Lucas which is sad really because you are not entirely stupid and I like a lot of what you write.

By the way DU is not just nasty stuff now but will be for the next 4.5 billion year. It used to be that the effects of war would wear of over a few decennia, but these wars will never, ever stop, and not just for the Iraqis and Afghans, but for the US soldiers and the soldiers of every country that has troops stationed in both countries and that includes the New Zealand troops. That is a huge difference.

For the person still believing that DU is only used as a an armour piercing weapon: DU is now used in every form of projectile. from bullet to grenade to bomb.

Hi Felix,

The term Tulip, coming from a thoroughly pathetic character with the moniker Higherstandard (whatever) is a batch of honour to me but thanks for calling him on his condescending pratty behaviour.
travellerev 157

21 September 2008 at 1:11 pm

Bugger, in purgatory again. Help, Heeeelp.

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2 days ago

Far too light a sentence
David Farrar writes – Newstalk ZB report: The man responsible for a horror hit and run in central Wellington last year was on a suspended licence and was so drunk he later asked police, “Did I kill someone?” Jason Tuitama injured two women when he ran a red ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
2 days ago

Unwinding Labour’s Agenda
Muriel Newman writes – Former US President Ronald Reagan once said, “Freedom is a fragile thing and it’s never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by way of inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation.” The fight for ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
2 days ago

Sequel to “Real reason Waitangi Tribunal could not summons Chhour”
Why Courts should have said Waitangi Tribunal could not summons Karen Chhour Gary Judd writes – In the High Court, Justice Isacs declined to uphold the witness summons issued by the Waitangi Tribunal to compel Minister for Children, Karen Chhour, to appear before it to be ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
2 days ago

The Govt’s Fast-Track is being demolished by submissions to Parliament
Bryce Edwards writes – The number of voices raising concerns about the Government’s Fast-Track Approvals Bill is rapidly growing. This is especially apparent now that Parliament’s select committee is listening to submissions from the public to evaluate the proposed legislation. Twenty-seven thousand submissions have been made to Parliament ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
2 days ago

A generation is leaving at a rate of one A320-load per day
An average of 166 New Zealand citizens left the country every day during the March quarter, up 54% from a year ago.Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The economy and housing market is sinking into a longer recession through the winter after a slump in business and consumer confidence in ...
The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
2 days ago

NZUP RORS back to life
The government has made it abundantly clear they’re addicted to the smell of new asphalt. On Tuesday they introduced a new term to the country’s roading lexicon, the Roads of Regional Significance (RoRS), a little brother for the Roads of National (Party) Significance (RoNS). Driving ahead with Roads of Regional ...
Greater AucklandBy Matt L
2 days ago

School Is Out.
School is outAnd I walk the empty hallwaysI walk aloneAlone as alwaysThere's so many lucky penniesLying on the floorBut where the hell are all the lucky peopleI can't see them any moreYesterday morning, I’d just sent out my newsletter on Tama Potaka, and I was struggling to make the coffee. ...
Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
2 days ago

How Are You Doing?
Hi,I wanted to check in and ask how you’re doing.This is perhaps a selfish act, of attempting to find others feeling a similar way to me — that is to say, a little hopeless at the moment.Misery loves company, that sort of deal.Some context.I wish I could say I got ...
David FarrierBy David Farrier
3 days ago

The Rings of Power: Season Two Teaser Trailer
I have hitherto been fairly quiet on the new season of Rings of Power, on the basis that the underwhelming first season did not exactly build excitement – and the rumours were fairly daft. The only real thing of substance to come out has been that they have re-cast Adar ...
A Phuulish FellowBy strda221
3 days ago

At a glance – What ended the Little ice Age?
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
Skeptical Science
3 days ago

Talking Reo with the PM
“The thing is,” Chris Luxon says, leaning forward to make his point, “this has always been my thing.”“This goes all the way back to the first multinational I worked for. I was saying exactly the same thing back then. The name of our business needs to be more clear; people ...
More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
3 days ago

Waitangi Tribunal’s authority in Chhour case is upheld – but bill’s introduction to Parliament...
Buzz from the Beehive It’s been a momentous few days for Children’s Minister Karen Chhour. The Court of Appeal has overturned a High Court decision which blocked a summons order from the Waitangi Tribunal for her. And today she has announced the Government is putting children first by introducing to ...
Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
3 days ago

Australia jails another whistleblower
In 2014 former Australian army lawyer David McBride leaked classified military documents about Australian war crimes to the ABC. Dubbed "The Afghan Files", the documents led to an explosive report on Australian war crimes, the disbanding of an entire SAS unit, and multiple ongoing prosecutions. The journalist who wrote the ...
No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
3 days ago

Some “scrutiny”!
Back in February I blogged about another secret OIA "consultation" by the Ministry of Justice. This one was on Aotearoa's commitment in its Open Government Partnership Action Plan to "strengthen scrutiny of Official Information Act exemption clauses in legislation" (AKA secrecy clauses). Their consultation paper on the issue focused on ...
No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
3 days ago

TVNZ is loss-making, serves no public service due to bias, and should be liquidated
Rob MacCulloch writes – According to the respected Pew Research Centre, “In seven of eight [European] countries surveyed, the most trusted news outlet asked about is the public news organization in each country”. For example, “in Sweden, an overwhelming majority (90%) say they trust the public broadcaster SVT”. ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
3 days ago

The conflicted Covid Chair
David Farrar writes – Kata MacNamara reports: Details of Tony Blakely’s involvement in the New Zealand Government’s response to the pandemic raise serious questions about the work of the Covid-19 Royal Commission of Inquiry over which he presides. It has long been clear that Blakely, a ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
3 days ago

Attacking the smartest and most resilient people in the room is never a good idea
Chris Trotter writes – Are you a Brahmin or a Merchant? Or, are you merely one of those whose lives are profoundly influenced by the decisions of Brahmins and Merchants? Those are the questions that are currently shaping the politics of New Zealand and the entire West. ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
3 days ago

A fortune-telling failure, surely, if the tarot cards can’t see a bulldozer coming
RNZ reports – It’s supposed to be a haven of healing and spiritual awakening but residents of the Kawai Purapura community say they’ve been hurt and deceived. It’s the successor to the former Centrepoint commune, and has been on the bush block opposite Albany shopping centre since 2008. It ...
Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
3 days ago

The climate battleground heats up
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. Usually we have a video chat to go with this wrap, but were unable to do one this week. We’ll be back next week.Several reports ...
The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
3 days ago

Bernard’ s Dawn Chorus & Pick ‘n’ Mix for Tuesday, May 14
The Transport Minister has set a hard 'fiscal envelope' of $6.54 billion for transport capital spending. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The economy is settling into a state of suspended animation as the Government’s funding freezes and job cuts chill confidence and combine with stubbornly high interest rates to ...
The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
3 days ago

Gordon Campbell on why anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitic
To be precise, the term “anti- Zionism” refers to (a) criticism of the political movement that created a modern Jewish state on the historical land of Israel, and to (b)the subjugation of Palestinians by the Israeli state. By contrast, the term “anti-Semitism” means bigotry and racism directed at Jewish people, ...
Gordon CampbellBy lyndon
3 days ago

Climate change is making hurricanes more destructive
This is a re-post from the Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler Because hurricanes are one of the big-ticket weather disasters that humanity has to face, climate misinformers spend a lot of effort muddying the waters on whether climate change is making hurricanes more damaging. With the official start to the hurricane ...
Skeptical Science
3 days ago

Wayne Brown’s PT Plan
Yesterday the Mayor released what he calls his “plan to save public transport” which is part of his final proposal for the Council’s Long Term Plan (LTP). This comes following consultation on the draft version that occurred in March which showed, once again, that people want more done on transport, especially ...
Greater AucklandBy Matt L
3 days ago

Potaka's Private Universe.
And it's a pleasure that I have knownAnd it's a treasure that I have gainedAotearoa’s coalition government is fragile. It’s held together by the obsequious sycophancy of Christopher Luxon, who willingly contorts his party into the fringe positions of his junior coalition partners and is unwilling to contradict them. The ...
Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
3 days ago

Our slow regional councils
The Select Committee hearing submissions on the fast-track consenting legislation is starting to become a beat-up of regional councils. The inflexibility and slow workings of the Councils were prominent in two submissions yesterday. One, from the Coromandel Marine Farmers Association, simply said that the Waikato Regional Council’s planning decisions were ...
PolitikBy Richard Harman
4 days ago

Ministers are not above the law after all
Back in April, the High Court surprised everyone by ruling that Ministers are above the law, at least as far as the Waitangi Tribunal is concerned. The reason for this ruling was "comity" - the idea that the different branches of government shouldn't interfere with each other's functions. Which makes ...
No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
4 days ago

NZTA takes the wheel after govt gives it the road map for regional roads (and puts a speed governor ...
Buzz from the Beehive Tolling was mentioned when Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced the government was re-introducing the Roads of National Significance (RoNS) programme, with 15 “crucial” projects to support economic growth and regional development across New Zealand. All RoNS would be four-laned, grade-separated highways, and all funding, financing, and ...
Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
4 days ago

Change in Catalonia?
or the past 14 years, ever since the Spanish government cheated on an autonomy deal, Catalonia has reliably given pro-independence parties a majority of seats in their regional parliament. But now that seems to be over. Catalans went to the polls yesterday, and stripped the Catalan parties of their majority. ...
No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
4 days ago

Having an enrolment date is not depriving anyone of a vote
David Farrar writes – Radio NZ report: Labour Party leader Chris Hipkins said the Electoral Commission should make sure the system ran smoothly and “taking away the right of thousands of people to vote” was not the answer. “Thousands of people enroled and voted on the day. If ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
4 days ago

Perhaps house prices don’t always go up
Don Brash writes – There was a rather revealing headline in the Herald on Sunday today (12 May). It read “One in 8 Auckland homes on market were bought during boom, may now sell for loss”. The first line of text noted that “New data shows one in ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
4 days ago

Can’t read, can’t write, can’t comprehend – and won’t think…?
Mike Grimshaw writes – At a time when universities are understandably nervous regarding the establishment of the University Advisory Group (UAG) and the Science System Advisory Group (SSAG) it may seem strange – or even fool-hardy – to state that there are long-standing issues in the tertiary sector ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
4 days ago

Time for some perspective
Lindsay Mitchell writes – A lack of perspective can make something quite large or important seem small or irrelevant. Against a backdrop of high-profile, negative statistics it is easy to overlook the positive. For instance, the fact that 64 percent of Maori are employed is rarely reported. For ...
Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
4 days ago

Will NZ Herald’s ‘poor journalism’ cost lives?
Earlier this year, the Herald ran a series of articles amounting to a sustained campaign against raised pedestrian crossings, by reporter Bernard Orsman. A key part of that campaign concerned the raised crossings being installed as part of the Pt Chevalier to Westmere project, with at least 10 articles over ...
Greater AucklandBy Matt L
4 days ago

The Kaka’s diary for the week to May 19 and beyond
TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to May 19 include:PM Christopher Luxon is expected to hold his weekly post-cabinet news conference at 4:00pm on Monday.Parliament is not sitting this week. It resumes next week for a two-week sitting session up to and ...
The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
4 days ago

Webworm Popup Photos!
Hi,Thanks to all the beautiful Worms who came to the LA Webworm popup on Saturday.It was a way to celebrate the online store we launched last week — and it was super special.As I talk about a lot, I really value our community here — and it was a BLAST ...
David FarrierBy David Farrier
4 days ago

2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #19
A listing of 35 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, May 5, 2024 thru Sat, May 11, 2024. (Unfortunate) Story of the week "Grief that stops at despair is an ending that I and many others, most notably ...
Skeptical Science
5 days ago

The Gods Must Be Woke.
Last night the largest solar storm in decades resulted in Aurorae being seen across Aotearoa, causing many to ask why?Why was the sky pink? What was all this stuff about the power grid? Have we, as so many have wondered since the election, reached the end of days?I had a ...
Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
5 days ago

Release: 4,500 jobs lost – and counting
More than 4,500 jobs are set to go as the National Government continues its deep cuts to services to pay for irresponsible and ill-timed tax cuts. ...
Labour Blog
9 hours ago

No-cause evictions leave no hope for renters
The Government’s introduction of legislation that would enable landlords to end tenancies with no reason marks a dark day for the 1.4 million people who rent their home in Aotearoa. ...
Greens
23 hours ago

Release: National winding back mental health work
The Minister for Mental Health has found the Suicide Prevention Office and mental health support for 111 calls slipping through his fingers, says Labour spokesperson for Mental Health Ingrid Leary. ...
Labour Blog
2 days ago

Government ignorant of evidence in neglect of tamariki
Today’s justification from the Minister for Children for scrapping protections for our tamariki was either a case of ignorance or deliberate deception. ...
Greens
3 days ago

Gang policy setting communities up for failure
The Green Party says the Government’s misguided policy on gangs will fail, following the announcement of the establishment of a national gang unit and district gang disruption units to target gang activities. ...
Greens
3 days ago

Statement from police spokesperson Ginny Andersen
“With Police pay negotiations still unresolved after six months in Government, Mark Mitchell has today rolled the Commissioner out for a rebrand of their approach to gang crime,” Labour police spokesperson Ginny Andersen said. ...
Labour Blog
3 days ago

Charter schools not a serious solution
We need serious investment and solutions into our education system, not a vanity project from David Seymour. ...
Greens
3 days ago

Release: Ideological charter schools won’t increase achievement
The Government bringing back 50 charter schools will not increase achievement and is a distraction from the core mission of the education system, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Labour Blog
3 days ago

Release: Visas needed for Palestinians with family in New Zealand
The Government must show some compassion and create a special visa to allow Palestinians with family in New Zealand to be reunited with them here. ...
Labour Blog
3 days ago

Release: Govt’s stubbornness will harm Māori children
Government has remained stubborn and is ramming its Bill into the House today, which the Waitangi Tribunal has said will hurt vulnerable children. ...
Labour Blog
4 days ago

‘Lucky dip’ process too casual for hearing critical submissions on Fast Track approvals bill
Te Pāti Māori is showing extreme concern over the Environment Select Committees adoption of a lucky dip draw to determine hearings for the Fast Track Approvals bill. Of the 27,000 submissions, 2,900 requested to present. All organisations will be heard; however, the remaining 2,350 submitters will be subject to a ...
Māori Party
4 days ago

New Zealand First Member’s Bill to protect women’s spaces
Today New Zealand First will introduce a Member’s Bill that will protect women’s spaces. The ‘Fair Access to Bathrooms Bill’ will require, primarily in the interest and safety of women and girls, that all new non-domestic publicly accessible buildings provide separate, clearly demarcated, unisex and single sex bathrooms. This Bill ...
NZ First Press Release
1 week ago

Release: Support for climate adaptation inquiry
Labour supports a Notice of Motion in the House today to move the Finance and Expenditure Committee to conduct an inquiry on climate adaptation. ...
Labour Blog
1 week ago

Greens welcome cross-party approach to climate adaptation
The Green Party is welcoming Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ continuation of Hon. James Shaw’s cross-party work on climate adaptation, now in the form of a Finance and Expenditure Committee Inquiry. ...
Greens
1 week ago

Release: Sexual violence prevention among hundreds of job cuts at ACC
The National Government plans to cut 390 jobs at ACC, including roles in the areas of prevention of sexual violence, road safety and workplace safety. ...
Labour Blog
1 week ago

Government shows allergy to evidence in benefits crackdown
The Government has been caught in opposition to evidence once again as it looks to usher in tried, tested and failed work seminar obligations for job-seeking beneficiaries. ...
Greens
1 week ago

Minister of Finance reheats austerity politics
This morning’s pre-Budget speech from the Minister of Finance offered no “meaningful” news on the Government’s trickle-down economics based plans. ...
Greens
1 week ago

A win for Wellington – Greens welcome more housing
The Green Party is welcoming the announcement by the Minister Responsible for RMA Reform Chris Bishop to approve most of the Wellington City Council’s District Plan recommendations. ...
Greens
1 week ago

Release: Backtrack on school lunches a win for Kiwi kids
David Seymour has failed to get the sweeping cuts he wanted to the free and healthy school lunch programme, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Labour Blog
1 week ago

Release: Hon Willie Jackson to debate at the Prestigious Oxford Union
Hon Willie Jackson has been invited by the Oxford Union to debate the motion “This House Believes British Museums are not Very British’ on May 23rd. ...
Labour Blog
1 week ago

Members Bill will prevent Māori land confiscations
Green Party MP Hūhana Lyndon says her Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of Māori Land) Amendment Bill is an opportunity to right some past wrongs around the alienation of Māori land. ...
Greens
1 week ago

TIKANGA IS NOT LAW. IT IS CULTURAL INDOCTRINATION.
A senior, highly respected King’s Counsel with decades of experience in our law courts, Gary Judd KC, has filed a complaint about compulsory tikanga Māori studies for law students - highlighting the utter depths of absurdity this woke cultural madness has taken our society. The tikanga regulations will compel law ...
NZ First Press Release
1 week ago

Release: National won’t commit to full Nelson Hospital upgrade
The Government needs to be clear with the people of the Nelson Marlborough region about the changes it is considering for the Nelson Hospital rebuild, Labour health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
Labour Blog
1 week ago

Release: Labour calls for fast track list to be released
Ministers must front up about which projects it will push through under its Fast Track Approvals legislation, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Release: National gaslights women fighting for equal pay
National has scrapped the pay equity taskforce that fights for equal pay for women and looks at ethnic pay gaps. ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Release: More job cuts, fewer houses under National
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Release: Children fall deeper through the cracks in Govt cuts
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Release: Labour honours memory of Sir Robert Martin
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Release: 130,000 cattle saved from live export
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Central Bank makes clear Government is pouring fuel on housing crisis fire
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
Greens
2 weeks ago

New unemployment figures paint bleak picture
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Greens
2 weeks ago

Release: National’s job cuts already starting to bite as unemployment rises
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Release: National hiking transport costs for families and young New Zealanders
Weekly expenses will grow for more than 1.6 million New Zealanders as the Government ends free and half price public transport fares tomorrow. ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Release: Labour welcomes EU free trade agreement
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Surprise: Landlord tax cuts don’t trickle down
The Green Party is renewing its call for rent controls following reports of rental prices hitting an all-time high. ...
Greens
2 weeks ago

Release: $1.7b for no increase in access to medicine
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
Labour Blog
2 weeks ago

Release: National should heed Tribunal warning and scrap coalition commitment with ACT
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Labour Blog
3 weeks ago

Release: More accountability for preventable workplace deaths this Workers’ Memorial Day
Labour is calling for more accountability for preventable workplace deaths because everybody who goes to work deserves to come home safely. ...
Labour Blog
3 weeks ago

DJ Fred Again – Assurance report received
"On the 27th of March, I sought assurances from the Chief Executive, Department of Internal Affairs, that the Department’s correct processes and policies had been followed in regards to a passport application which received media attention,” says Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden. “I raised my concerns after being ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 hour ago

District Court Judges appointed
Attorney-General Judith Collins has announced the appointment of three new District Court Judges, to replace Judges who have recently retired. Peter James Davey of Auckland has been appointed a District Court Judge with a jury jurisdiction to be based at Whangarei. Mr Davey initially started work as a law clerk/solicitor with ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
6 hours ago

Unions should put learning ahead of ideology
Associate Education Minister David Seymour is calling on the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) to put ideology to the side and focus on students’ learning, in reaction to the union holding paid teacher meetings across New Zealand about charter schools.    “The PPTA is disrupting schools up and down the ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
6 hours ago

Craig Stobo appointed as chair of FMA
Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly today announced the appointment of Craig Stobo as the new chair of the Financial Markets Authority (FMA). Mr Stobo takes over from Mark Todd, whose term expired at the end of April. Mr Stobo’s appointment is for a five-year term. “The FMA plays ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
6 hours ago

Budget 2024 invests in lifeguards and coastguard
Surf Life Saving New Zealand and Coastguard New Zealand will continue to be able to keep people safe in, on, and around the water following a funding boost of $63.644 million over four years, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Associate Transport Minister Matt Doocey say. “Heading to the beach for ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
8 hours ago

New Zealand and Tuvalu reaffirm close relationship
New Zealand and Tuvalu have reaffirmed their close relationship, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand is committed to working with Tuvalu on a shared vision of resilience, prosperity and security, in close concert with Australia,” says Mr Peters, who last visited Tuvalu in 2019. “It is my pleasure ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 day ago

New Zealand calls for calm, constructive dialogue in New Caledonia
New Zealand is gravely concerned about the situation in New Caledonia, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The escalating situation and violent protests in Nouméa are of serious concern across the Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says. “The immediate priority must be for all sides to take steps to de-escalate the ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 day ago

New Zealand welcomes Samoa Head of State
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon met today with Samoa’s O le Ao o le Malo, Afioga Tuimalealiifano Vaaletoa Sualauvi II, who is making a State Visit to New Zealand. “His Highness and I reflected on our two countries’ extensive community links, with Samoan–New Zealanders contributing to all areas of our national ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 day ago

Island Direct eligible for SuperGold Card funding
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has announced that he has approved Waiheke Island ferry operator Island Direct to be eligible for SuperGold Card funding, paving the way for a commercial agreement to bring the operator into the scheme. “Island Direct started operating in November 2023, offering an additional option for people ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 day ago

Further sanctions against Russia
Foreign Minister Winston Peters today announced further sanctions on 28 individuals and 14 entities providing military and strategic support for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. “Russia is directly supported by its military-industrial complex in its illegal aggression against Ukraine, attacking its sovereignty and territorial integrity. New Zealand condemns all entities and ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 day ago

One year on from Loafers Lodge
A year on from the tragedy at Loafers Lodge, the Government is working hard to improve building fire safety, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “I want to share my sincere condolences with the families and friends of the victims on the anniversary of the tragic fire at Loafers ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
2 days ago

Pre-Budget speech to Auckland Business Chamber
Ka nui te mihi kia koutou. Kia ora and good afternoon, everyone. Thank you so much for having me here in the lead up to my Government’s first Budget. Before I get started can I acknowledge: Simon Bridges – Auckland Business Chamber CEO. Steve Jurkovich – Kiwibank CEO. Kids born ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
2 days ago

New Zealand and Vanuatu to deepen collaboration
New Zealand and Vanuatu will enhance collaboration on issues of mutual interest, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “It is important to return to Port Vila this week with a broad, high-level political delegation which demonstrates our deep commitment to New Zealand’s relationship with Vanuatu,” Mr Peters says. “This ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
2 days ago

Penk travels to Peru for trade meetings
Minister for Land Information, Chris Penk will travel to Peru this week to represent New Zealand at a meeting of trade ministers from the Asia-Pacific region on behalf of Trade Minister Todd McClay. The annual Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Ministers Responsible for Trade meeting will be held on 17-18 May ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
2 days ago

Minister attends global education conferences
Minister of Education Erica Stanford will head to the United Kingdom this week to participate in the 22nd Conference of Commonwealth Education Ministers (CCEM) and the 2024 Education World Forum (EWF). “I am looking forward to sharing this Government’s education priorities, such as introducing a knowledge-rich curriculum, implementing an evidence-based ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
2 days ago

Education Minister thanks outgoing NZQA Chair
Minister of Education Erica Stanford has today thanked outgoing New Zealand Qualifications Authority Chair, Hon Tracey Martin. “Tracey Martin tendered her resignation late last month in order to take up a new role,” Ms Stanford says. Ms Martin will relinquish the role of Chair on 10 May and current Deputy ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
2 days ago

Joint statement of Christopher Luxon and Emmanuel Macron: Launch of the Christchurch Call Foundation
New Zealand Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and President Emmanuel Macron of France today announced a new non-governmental organisation, the Christchurch Call Foundation, to coordinate the Christchurch Call’s work to eliminate terrorist and violent extremist content online. This change gives effect to the outcomes of the November 2023 Call Leaders’ Summit, ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
3 days ago

Panel announced for review into disability services
Distinguished public servant and former diplomat Sir Maarten Wevers will lead the independent review into the disability support services administered by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. The review was announced by Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston a fortnight ago to examine what could be done to strengthen the ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
3 days ago

Minister welcomes Police gang unit
Today’s announcement by Police Commissioner Andrew Coster of a National Gang Unit and district Gang Disruption Units will help deliver on the coalition Government’s pledge to restore law and order and crack down on criminal gangs, Police Minister Mark Mitchell says. “The National Gang Unit and Gang Disruption Units will ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
3 days ago

New Zealand expresses regret at North Korea’s aggressive rhetoric
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today expressed regret at North Korea’s aggressive rhetoric towards New Zealand and its international partners. “New Zealand proudly stands with the international community in upholding the rules-based order through its monitoring and surveillance deployments, which it has been regularly doing alongside partners since 2018,” Mr ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
3 days ago

New Chief of Defence Force appointed
Air Vice-Marshal Tony Davies MNZM is the new Chief of Defence Force, Defence Minister Judith Collins announced today. The Chief of Defence Force commands the Navy, Army and Air Force and is the principal military advisor to the Defence Minister and other Ministers with relevant portfolio responsibilities in the defence ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
3 days ago

Government puts children first by repealing 7AA
Legislation to repeal section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act has been introduced to Parliament. The Bill’s introduction reaffirms the Coalition Government’s commitment to the safety of children in care, says Minister for Children, Karen Chhour. “While section 7AA was introduced with good intentions, it creates a conflict for Oranga ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
3 days ago

Defence Minister to meet counterparts in UK, Italy
Defence Minister Judith Collins will this week travel to the UK and Italy to meet with her defence counterparts, and to attend Battles of Cassino commemorations. “I am humbled to be able to represent the New Zealand Government in Italy at the commemorations for the 80th anniversary of what was ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
3 days ago

Charter schools to lift educational outcomes
The upcoming Budget will include funding for up to 50 charter schools to help lift declining educational performance, Associate Education Minister David Seymour announced today. $153 million in new funding will be provided over four years to establish and operate up to 15 new charter schools and convert 35 state ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
3 days ago

COVID-19 Inquiry terms of reference consultation results received
“The results of the public consultation on the terms of reference for the Royal Commission into COVID-19 Lessons has now been received, with results indicating over 13,000 submissions were made from members of the public,” Internal Affairs Minister Brooke van Velden says. “We heard feedback about the extended lockdowns in ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
4 days ago

The Pacific family of nations – the changing security outlook
Foreign Minister, Defence Minister, other Members of Parliament Acting Chief of Defence Force, Secretary of Defence Distinguished Guests Defence and Diplomatic Colleagues Ladies and Gentlemen, Good afternoon, tēna koutou, apinun tru It’s a pleasure to be back in Port Moresby today, and to speak here at the Kumul Leadership ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
4 days ago

NZ and Papua New Guinea to work more closely together
Health, infrastructure, renewable energy, and stability are among the themes of the current visit to Papua New Guinea by a New Zealand political delegation, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “Papua New Guinea carries serious weight in the Pacific, and New Zealand deeply values our relationship with it,” Mr Peters ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
4 days ago

Driving ahead with Roads of Regional Significance
The coalition Government is launching Roads of Regional Significance to sit alongside Roads of National Significance as part of its plan to deliver priority roading projects across the country, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The Roads of National Significance (RoNS) built by the previous National Government are some of New Zealand’s ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
4 days ago

New Zealand congratulates new Solomon Islands government
A high-level New Zealand political delegation in Honiara today congratulated the new Government of Solomon Islands, led by Jeremiah Manele, on taking office. “We are privileged to meet the new Prime Minister and members of his Cabinet during his government’s first ten days in office,” Deputy Prime Minister and ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
5 days ago

New Zealand supports UN Palestine resolution
New Zealand voted in favour of a resolution broadening Palestine’s participation at the United Nations General Assembly overnight, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The resolution enhances the rights of Palestine to participate in the work of the UN General Assembly while stopping short of admitting Palestine as a full ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
7 days ago

Speech to the 2024 Infrastructure Symposium
Introduction Good morning. It’s a great privilege to be here at the 2024 Infrastructure Symposium. I was extremely happy when the Prime Minister asked me to be his Minister for Infrastructure. It is one of the great barriers holding the New Zealand economy back from achieving its potential. Building high ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

$571 million for Defence pay and projects
Defence Minister Judith Collins today announced the upcoming Budget will include new funding of $571 million for Defence Force pay and projects. “Our servicemen and women do New Zealand proud throughout the world and this funding will help ensure we retain their services and expertise as we navigate an increasingly ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

Climate change – mitigating the risks and costs
New Zealand’s ability to cope with climate change will be strengthened as part of the Government’s focus to build resilience as we rebuild the economy, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “An enduring and long-term approach is needed to provide New Zealanders and the economy with certainty as the climate ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

Getting new job seekers on the pathway to work
Jobseeker beneficiaries who have work obligations must now meet with MSD within two weeks of their benefit starting to determine their next step towards finding a job, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “A key part of the coalition Government’s plan to have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

Accelerating Social Investment
A new standalone Social Investment Agency will power-up the social investment approach, driving positive change for our most vulnerable New Zealanders, Social Investment Minister Nicola Willis says. “Despite the Government currently investing more than $70 billion every year into social services, we are not seeing the outcomes we want for ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

Getting Back on Track
Check against delivery Good morning. It is a pleasure to be with you to outline the Coalition Government’s approach to our first Budget. Thank you Mark Skelly, President of the Hutt Valley Chamber of Commerce, together with your Board and team, for hosting me. I’d like to acknowledge His Worship ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

NZ – European Union ties more critical than ever
Your Excellency Ambassador Meredith, Members of the Diplomatic Corps and Ambassadors from European Union Member States, Ministerial colleagues, Members of Parliament, and other distinguished guests, Thank you everyone for joining us. Ladies and gentlemen - In diplomacy, we often speak of ‘close’ and ‘long-standing’ relations. ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

Therapeutic Products Act to be repealed
The Therapeutic Products Act (TPA) will be repealed this year so that a better regime can be put in place to provide New Zealanders safe and timely access to medicines, medical devices and health products, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello announced today. “The medicines and products we are talking about ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

Decisions on Wellington City Council’s District Plan
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop, today released his decision on twenty recommendations referred to him by the Wellington City Council relating to its Intensification Planning Instrument, after the Council rejected those recommendations of the Independent Hearings Panel and made alternative recommendations. “Wellington notified its District Plan on ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

Rape Awareness Week: Government committed to action on sexual violence
Rape Awareness Week (6-10 May) is an important opportunity to acknowledge the continued effort required by government and communities to ensure that all New Zealanders can live free from violence, say Ministers Karen Chhour and Louise Upston. “With 1 in 3 women and 1 in 8 men experiencing sexual violence ...
BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
1 week ago

Rugby league in Perth and Papua New Guinea? Here’s what could be next for the NRL
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tim Harcourt, Industry Professor and Chief Economist, University of Technology Sydney This year the National Rugby League (NRL) opened its season in Las Vegas. It was an audacious move by the league’s ambitious head honcho Peter V’Landys to showcase the game in ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
49 mins ago

The budget has earmarked $8.6 million for live music. Is it enough to save the flailing industry?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Catherine Strong, Associate Professor, Music Industry, RMIT University Leading music organisations have praised the federal budget for its investment in the live music sector. The budget includes A$8.6 million for a program called Revive Live: to provide essential support to ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
2 hours ago

The Week in Politics: Charter schools, special police units and a tricky problem for the government
The Week in Politics: ACT brings back a signature policy, while NZ First mulls how to fulfil a promise. ...
Radio NZ – political
2 hours ago

There’s $110 million for Indigenous education in the budget. But where’s the evidence it will wo...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Marnee Shay, Associate Professor, Principal Research Fellow, The University of Queensland The 2024 federal budget contains A$110 million for Indigenous education. This includes funding for various different organisations to represent and help Indigenous people as well as scholarships in a bid to ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
2 hours ago

New Caledonia’s Nouméa airport closed until Tuesday, says Air New Zealand
Air New Zealand has confirmed Nouméa’s Tontouta International airport in New Caledonia is closed until Tuesday. The airline earlier told RNZ it would update customers as soon as it could. Earlier today, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters told RNZ Morning Report government officials had been working on an “hourly basis” ...
Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report
2 hours ago

Cameras reveal wombat burrows can be safe havens after fire and waterholes after rain
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Grant Linley, PhD Candidate in Ecology, Charles Sturt University Grant Linley Australia’s unprecedented Black Summer bushfires in 2019–20 created ideal conditions for misinformation to spread, from the insidious to the absurd. It was within this context that a bizarre story ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
3 hours ago

ChatGPT is now better than ever at faking human emotion and behaviour
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Marcel Scharth, Lecturer in Business Analytics, University of Sydney OpenAI executive Mira Murati launching GPT-4o. OpenAI Earlier this week OpenAI launched GPT-4o (“o” for “omni”), a new version of the artificial intelligence (AI) system powering the popular ChatGPT chatbot. GPT-4o is promoted ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
3 hours ago

Menopause can bring increased cholesterol levels and other heart risks. Here’s why and what to do ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Treasure McGuire, Assistant Director of Pharmacy, Mater Health SEQ in conjoint appointment as Associate Professor of Pharmacology, Bond University and as Associate Professor (Clinical), The University of Queensland Speedkingz/Shutterstock Menopause is a natural biological process that marks the end of a ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
4 hours ago

The Friday Poem: ‘Xiāng’ by Hannah Patterson
A new poem by Hannah Patterson. Xiāng There’s a pear tree in our backyard And Xiāng tells me She can’t eat them anymore Not after some things that have happened in her life. She tells me, in Mandarin The word for pear sounds the same as the word for disassociation ...
The SpinoffBy Hannah Patterson
4 hours ago

Cycle lanes are good for business, actually
‘Cycling Works’ aims to show business support for citywide cycle infrastructure. This is an excerpt from our weekly environmental newsletter Future Proof. Sign up here. Last week, supermarket giant Foodstuffs lost its attempt to block the construction of a cycle lane outside Thorndon New World in Wellington. The Spinoff’s Wellington editor ...
The SpinoffBy Ellen Rykers
4 hours ago

The Unity Books bestseller chart for the week ending May 17
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington. AUCKLAND 1 Slow Productivity by Cal Newport (Penguin, $40) Taking out the top spot in Auckland this ...
The SpinoffBy The Spinoff Review of Books
4 hours ago

Nuclear subs are coming to Australia. Now the Coalition wants reactors, too. We’re not ready for i...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Lowe, Emeritus Professor, School of Environment and Science, Griffith University For decades, Australia has exported uranium – but not used it, other than in the Lucas Heights research reactor. But change is coming. We now face a rapidly deepening commitment to ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
4 hours ago

After 180 years, new clues are revealing just how general anaesthesia works in the brain
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adam D Hines, Research fellow, Queensland University of Technology Sergey Mironov/Shutterstock Over 350 million surgeries are performed globally each year. For most of us, it’s likely at some point in our lives we’ll have to undergo a procedure that needs general ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
4 hours ago

'I can do much better': Green MP Julie Anne Genter promises to improve conduct
"In future I should walk away," Green MP Julie Anne Genter says after complaints over an exchange in Parliament and from two members of the public. ...
Radio NZ – political
5 hours ago

Call to protect asylum seekers who may arrive in New Zealand by boat
A group of more than 40 refugees, charities and advocates want better protections for asylum seekers arriving by boat. ...
Radio NZ – political
5 hours ago

Homo Pentecostus: on queer intimacies, religion, ancestry and the human need for connection
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Graffam, PhD Candidate in Theatre, Monash University Gianna Rizzo/Malthouse Music pumps; lights pulsate; two sweaty bodies sway together, touching, breathing in each other’s scent. A male body framed by downlight restlessly shifts between stances and gestures. He undresses. The intensity ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
5 hours ago

Want to be buried on your own land, at sea or in a forest? A guide to unconventional send-offs
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sandra van der Laan, Professor of Accounting, University of Sydney Mtaya/Shutterstock At some point, you or someone else will need to make a decision about your “send-off”. Most Australians die in an institution, such as a hospital or aged care facility. ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
5 hours ago

Vanuatu, MSG chief reaffirms support for FLNKS, blames France over unrest
Asia Pacific Report Vanuatu Prime Minister Charlot Salwai — who is also Chairman of the Melanesian Spearhead Group — has reaffirmed MSG’s support of the pro-independence umbrella group Kanak and Socialist National Liberation Front (FLNKS) stance opposing the French government’s constitutional bill “unfreezing” the New Caledonia Electoral Roll. It is ...
Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report
5 hours ago

Blazing a trail: the Leonard family legacy in Māori television
Producer Susan Leonard remembers her father Ernie, a pioneer of Māori television, and how his legacy lives on in Pathfinders. My father was a fabulous man. His name was Ernie Leonard and he started in TV in the 1970s when it was still glamorous – when TVNZ made behind the ...
The SpinoffBy Susan Leonard
6 hours ago

Home detention for New Caledonia’s unrest ringleaders, Tiktok banned
By Patrick Decloitre, RNZ Pacific correspondent French Pacific desk, and Lydia Lewis, RNZ Pacific journalist The suspected ringleaders of the unrest in New Caledonia have been placed in home detention and the social network TikTok has been banned as French security forces struggle to restore law and order. The French ...
Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report
6 hours ago

Review finds big increase in multi-year government spends, use not always justified
Multi-year appropriations - which give the government authority to spend money without reapplying annually - are loosening Parliament's control of the public purse, auditor-general says. ...
Radio NZ – political
6 hours ago

$63.6m for Surf Life Saving and Coastguard in Budget 2024
"New Zealand has a tragically high drowning toll," Transport Minister Simeon Brown said at the announcement. ...
Radio NZ – political
7 hours ago

Dr. Eric Chuah Standing For Mayor Of Tauranga
Dr. Eric Chuah who stood for a centrist NZ political party in the October 2023 NZ Elections for Maungakiekie Auckland will stand as a candidate for Tauranga City Council Ward of Matua-=Otumoetai and Mayor of Tauranga. ...
Scoop politics
7 hours ago

How to enjoy a comedy festival in your own lounge
If you can’t get to the comedy fest, let us bring the comedy fest to you. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. The New Zealand International Comedy Festival is in full swing at the moment, with a veritable smorgasboard of comedy treats ...
The SpinoffBy Tara Ward
7 hours ago

Poll Shows Three Quarters Of Wellingtonians Oppose Airport Sale
A new poll commissioned by Unions Wellington shows an overwhelming majority of Wellingtonians oppose the Council’s plan to sell the 34% public stake in Wellington Airport. ...
Scoop politics
7 hours ago

$63.6m boost for Surf Life Saving and Coastguard in Budget 2024
"New Zealand has a tragically high drowning toll," Transport Minister Simeon Brown said at the announcement. ...
Radio NZ – political
8 hours ago

Nearly 1300 homes on hold amid government review
Newly released documents show building has been paused on 690 KiwiBuild homes and 593 market homes. ...
Radio NZ – political
8 hours ago

At the heart of the budget is the sad truth the economy is weak. That’s one reason inflation will ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Aruna Sathanapally, Chief Executive, Grattan Institute, Grattan Institute A central focus of this week’s budget is the treasury’s forecast for inflation. By this time next year, inflation is projected to be back within the Reserve Bank’s 2-3% target range. Inflation has ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
8 hours ago

Denser housing can be greener too – here’s how NZ can build better for biodiversity
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Yolanda van Heezik, Professor of Ecology, University of Otago Getty Images Cities across Aotearoa New Zealand are trying to solve a housing crisis, with increasing residential density a key solution. But not everyone is happy about the resulting loss of natural ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
9 hours ago

Clean energy slump – why Australia’s renewables revolution is behind schedule, and how to fix it
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alison Reeve, Deputy Program Director, Energy and Climate Change, Grattan Institute WDG Photo/Shutterstock For years, the electricity sector has been the poster child for emissions cuts in Australia. The sector achieved a stunning 26% drop in emissions over the past 15 ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
9 hours ago

It’s OK to ask a loved one if they’re feeling suicidal
It’s often the last thing people want to do, but asking someone if they’re having suicidal thoughts is a critical first step to helping them. Content warning: this story discusses suicide and suicidal ideation. For a list of resources that can help if you or someone you know is feeling ...
The SpinoffBy Gráinne Patterson
9 hours ago

Watch live: Transport Minister makes pre-Budget announcement
Simeon Brown and Matt Doocey are set to reveal another bit of next week's budget. ...
Radio NZ – political
9 hours ago

We mapped a lost branch of the Nile River – which may be the key to a longstanding mystery of the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Timothy J. Ralph, Associate Professor, Macquarie University The pyramids at Giza, like dozens of others, are located several kilometres west of the current path of the Nile. Alex Cimbal / Shutterstock The largest field of pyramids in Egypt – consisting of 31 ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
9 hours ago

If I’m diagnosed with one cancer, am I likely to get another?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sarah Diepstraten, Senior Research Officer, Blood Cells and Blood Cancer Division, Walter and Eliza Hall Institute ABO PHOTOGRAPHY/Shutterstock Receiving a cancer diagnosis is life-changing and can cause a range of concerns about ongoing health. Fear of cancer returning is one ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
9 hours ago

All options being considered to help New Zealanders in New Caledonia – Winston Peters
Government looking at all options for helping New Zealanders who want to leave New Caledonia as death toll rises. ...
Radio NZ – political
10 hours ago

Rebuke issued in stoush over volume of on-bus announcements for blind passengers
And how a union boss ruined a regional councillor's morning. ...
Radio NZ – political
10 hours ago

Nearly 1300 Kāinga Ora homes on hold amid government review
Newly released documents show building has been paused on 690 KiwiBuild homes and 593 market homes. ...
Radio NZ – political
10 hours ago

What’s happening in New Caledonia and Vanuatu, and why it matters to NZ
Winston Peters has been on tour around the Pacific while two unrelated crises unfolded, explains Stewart Sowman-Lund in this extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Two separate ...
The SpinoffBy Stewart Sowman-Lund
10 hours ago

Charter schools might increase government costs, deliver only marginal benefits, Cabinet papers show
Charter schools will likely get higher per-student funding than most state schools, and evidence of their efficacy is mixed. ...
Radio NZ – political
11 hours ago

Charter schools might increase government costs, deliver marginal benefits – Cabinet papers
Charter schools will likely get higher per-student funding than most state schools, and evidence of their efficacy is mixed. ...
Radio NZ – political
11 hours ago

Fake bacon, ranked from worst to best
This is the Mount Everest of artificial meatcraft. Ah, bacon. Pig’s gold. Toast’s consolation. Dawn’s savoury embrace. If meat was a currency, bacon would be the Benjamin Franklin. Or if you’re feeling patriotic, the Lord Rutherford. When it comes to fake bacon, the obvious question is: why bother? In the ...
The SpinoffBy Hera Lindsay Bird
13 hours ago

Milking it: The man behind New Zealand’s weirdest legal cases
From illegal milk to sprinkler bans and airplane ticket scams, Tyrone Barugh is on a one-man mission through New Zealand’s most obscure legal loopholes. I’m deep undercover, investigating Wellington’s criminal underworld. Inside this store, I’ve been told there is a million-dollar trade in illicit substances. A man dressed in black ...
The SpinoffBy Joel MacManus
13 hours ago

Dear minister, military families need your help
Dear Hon Judith Collins, Minister of Defence, and Hon Christopher Penk, Associate Minister of Defence I have written to you, to attempt to give you an insight into the incredible hardship of being an NZDF family. Whilst I cannot speak on behalf of serving personnel, I can speak from my ...
NewsroomBy Erin Speedy
13 hours ago

Wayne Brown, a man with a plan
Analysis: What a difference a year makes. In mid 2023, Wayne Brown the Auckland Mayor was a politician diminished by a calamitous response to the region’s Anniversary Weekend storm emergency and later forced against his preference into a half sale only of the city’s airport shares. His demeanour among his ...
NewsroomBy Tim Murphy
13 hours ago

Ohakea base upgrades delayed amid defence estate concerns
Work to replace ‘not fit-for-purpose’ living quarters at one critical air base faces further delays The post Ohakea base upgrades delayed amid defence estate concerns appeared first on Newsroom. ...
NewsroomBy Sam Sachdeva
13 hours ago

Iwi pledges to use only te reo Māori to communicate with Govt
The move comes after the government departments began to prioritise their English names and the finance minister questioned agencies funding te reo lessons for staff The post Iwi pledges to use only te reo Māori to communicate with Govt appeared first on Newsroom. ...
NewsroomBy Marc Daalder
13 hours ago

Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 17 May
Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A,DIV,A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp'); Got a good quiz question? Send Newsroom your questions. The post Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 17 May appeared first on Newsroom. ...
NewsroomBy Newsroom Puzzles
13 hours ago

A bold call from experts on drug legalisation
New Zealand’s drug legislation hasn’t been overhauled in nearly 50 years, in spite of a recommendation from the Law Commission in 2011 to do so. Our Misuse of Drugs Act was passed in 1975 and is based on a United Nations framework set in 1961. Now a new organisation, Harm ...
NewsroomBy Davina Zimmer
13 hours ago

This week’s bestselling books – May 17
NONFICTION 1 The Last Secret Agent by Pippa Latour & Jude Dobson (Allen & Unwin, $37.99) A free copy of this amazing story of a woman who operated behind enemy lines in Nazi-occupied France was up for grabs this past fortnight. Readers were asked to share a story of wartime bravery, ...
NewsroomBy Steve Braunias
13 hours ago

Commerce Commission slaps wrists over possible bandwidth collusion
Spectrum rights are highly contested – the Commerce Commission has had to deal with two bandwidth cases this year The post Commerce Commission slaps wrists over possible bandwidth collusion appeared first on Newsroom. ...
NewsroomBy Andrew Bevin
13 hours ago

Raw Politics: Crime and (perceptions of) conflict
It’s been a recess week at Parliament, which might indicate slim pickings for conversation topics for the Raw Politics team. But things are never dull in politics, especially with a new Government keen to follow through on its law and order promises, and a NZ First minister who wants to ...
NewsroomBy Laura Walters
13 hours ago

Desperately seeking political maturity on electricity supply
Opinion: Party politics are no substitute for moving toward an electricity resilience policy that will survive elections The post Desperately seeking political maturity on electricity supply appeared first on Newsroom. ...
NewsroomBy Dr Earl Bardsley
13 hours ago

Daily crossword, Friday 17 May
The post Daily crossword, Friday 17 May appeared first on Newsroom. ...
NewsroomBy Newsroom Puzzles
13 hours ago

Open letter challenges Zionist advert missing Gaza ‘injustices’ in Herald
Asia Pacific Report An open letter to The New Zealand Herald has challenged a full page Zionist advertisement this week for failing to acknowledge the “terrible injustices” suffered by the Palestinian people in Israel’s seven-month genocidal war on Gaza. In the latest of several international reports that have condemned genocide ...
Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report
15 hours ago

Grattan on Friday: Peter Dutton’s alternative – lower migration, more homes, and a populist swip...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra When he was opposition leader, Bill Shorten faced Coalition criticism for attacking “the top end of town”, a phrase he used in his 2019 budget reply. Now Peter Dutton is finding the line “billions of ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
17 hours ago

NZ families worried as loved ones shelter from violent unrest in New Caledonia
By Adam Burns, RNZ News reporter Worried New Caledonian expats in Aotearoa admit they are “terrified” for friends and family amid ongoing violence and civil unrest in the French Pacific territory. The death toll remained at four tonight, and hundreds have been injured after electoral changes sparked widespread rioting by ...
Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report
19 hours ago

‘Deadly spiral’ – state of emergency in Kanaky New Caledonia and the Paris vote that sparked r...
French President Emmanuel Macron has declared a state of emergency in New Caledonia after several days of civil unrest in the capital. Four people are dead due to the unrest and violence in the capital, Nouméa. France TV reports that a 22-year-old gendarme who had been seriously wounded has become ...
Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report
20 hours ago

Operation Burnham: Defence Force failed to share info crucial to investigation
Peter Boshier says the information gap undermined his initial investigation, and meant the NZDF avoided being accountable. ...
Radio NZ – political
23 hours ago

It’s time to give Labor’s first term a scorecard – have we actually seen any transformative vi...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Quiggin, Professor, School of Economics, The University of Queensland This week’s budget was Treasurer Jim Chalmers’ third and – for practical purposes – final for the current parliamentary term. Even if the 2025 election is delayed long enough to give ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
23 hours ago

Rally Condemns Zionism And The State Of Israel For Ongoing Genocide
They held a noisy but peaceful demonstration against the ongoing genocide being carried out by the State of Israel, condemning the Israeli ambassador who was hosting an invitation-only event to celebrate the establishment of the State of Israel. ...
Scoop politics
1 day ago

Winston Peters expresses concern over New Caledonia unrest
The Minister of Foreign Affairs says the escalating situation is of serious concern across the Pacific region. ...
Radio NZ – political
1 day ago

PrEP was earmarked $26m in the budget. What is it? Will it stop me getting HIV?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Bridget Haire, Senior lecturer, public health ethics, School of Population Health, UNSW Sydney Bowonpat Sakaew/Shutterstock HIV prevention was allocated A$43.9 million over three years in this week’s federal budget. Some $26m of this is for “PrEP” for people without access to ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
1 day ago

Children's Minister wants to work with Māori – despite working to scrap Treaty obligatio...
Karen Chhour wants Oranga Tamiriki to establish more partnerships with Māori, despite introducing a bill to Parliament removing their obligation to do so. ...
Radio NZ – political
1 day ago

What is PrEP for HIV? Will it stop me getting infected?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Bridget Haire, Senior lecturer, public health ethics, School of Population Health, UNSW Sydney Bowonpat Sakaew/Shutterstock HIV prevention was allocated A$43.9 million over three years in this week’s federal budget. Some $26m of this is for “PrEP” for people without access to ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
1 day ago

Why is New Caledonia on fire? According to local women, the deadly riots are about more than voting ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nicole George, Associate Professor in Peace and Conflict Studies, The University of Queensland New Caledonia’s capital city, Noumea, has endured widespread violent rioting over the past 48 hours. This crisis intensified rapidly, taking local authorities by surprise. Peaceful protests had been ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
1 day ago

Suspended Green MP Darleen Tana on full pay misses half Parliament's 2024 sitting days
Darleen Tana was stood down in March after Stuff reported allegations of migrant exploitation relating to her husband's e-bike company. ...
Radio NZ – political
1 day ago

Mayor calls for 'slow down' of fast-track law
Although his council supports the intent of the legislation, it's called on the government to reconsider its approach. ...
Radio NZ – political
1 day ago

Risk of ‘genetic discrimination’ by insurance companies is ruining people’s trust in vital med...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Brad Elphinstone, Lecturer in psychology., Swinburne University of Technology A DNA sequence. Gio.tto/Shutterstock Should you be denied life insurance or have to pay extra if you have a genetic risk for certain diseases? Should insurance companies even have access to your genetic ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
1 day ago

Investigating social media harm is a good idea, but parliament is about to see how complicated it is...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rob Nicholls, Senior research associate, University of Sydney Barely a day has gone by this month without politicians or commentators talking about online harms. There have been multiple high-profile examples spurring on the conversation. There was the circulation of videos of Bishop ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
1 day ago

Popeyes battle shows how big businesses protect their trademarks – even when they have no plans to...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexandra Allen-Franks, Lecturer and Co-director of the New Zealand Centre for Human Rights Law, Policy and Practice, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Robert Gauthier/Getty Images At first sight, the battle between a Manawatū fish-and-chip shop and a Louisiana-based chicken joint ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
1 day ago

Trump vs Biden round two: The 2024 US presidential election, explained
With less than six months to go, it’s time to start paying attention to what could be the most consequential election of our lifetimes. It’s less than half a year until election day in the United States, which makes this a good opportunity to review what’s happened thus far in ...
The SpinoffBy Catherine McGregor
1 day ago

Sports are supposed to be for all – but new research reveals just how few LGBTQI+ people play spor...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ryan Storr, Research fellow, Swinburne University of Technology The topic of homophobia in sport has recently made headlines in Australia, with a series of homophobic incidents involving men’s AFL players. These homophobic incidents are usually well-reported in news media, but research ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
1 day ago

‘Too difficult to work out’ – new research reveals just how few LGBTQI+ people play sport
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ryan Storr, Research fellow, Swinburne University of Technology The topic of homophobia in sport has recently made headlines in Australia, with a series of homophobic incidents involving men’s AFL players. These homophobic incidents are usually well-reported in news media, but research ...
Evening ReportBy The Conversation
1 day ago

Explainer: What sparked New Caledonia's deadly civil unrest?
At least four people are dead and hundreds are injured amid widespread fires, armed clashes with police and mass looting. ...
Radio NZ – political
1 day ago

Nouméa ‘was on fire’ – New Zealander in New Caledonia tells of unrest
RNZ News A New Zealand man has described scenes of chaos in the New Caledonia capital of Nouméa during the escalating civil unrest. Four people have died and hundreds have been injured during rioting by pro-independence supporters over electoral changes. French president Emmanuel Macron has declared a 12-day state of ...
Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report
1 day ago

Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq

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